What truely works? what doesnt? (mma) [Archive]

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 10:42 PM

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 10:49 PM

im totally skeptical about kung-fu styles working in real life situations

So why are you here?

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 10:50 PM

no comment???

i guess i would be alittle upset too if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training.

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 10:53 PM

if i trained all my life in snake fist kung-fu only to get beat down by some kid with 3 months of BJJ training

You have a Link to this?

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 10:57 PM

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:00 PM

No video means it didn't happen.

Watchman

01-16-2006, 11:03 PM

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

Doesn't look like I've missed much since I've been gone.

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 11:06 PM

DID YOU READ MY POST? WHEN DID I SAY IT EVER HAPPENED TO ME?

im sure it happens to you guys on a regular basis! i tried to be nice but already i can see the attacks pouring in. its painfully obvious that MMA was the worst thing that could have happened to you guys because it completely destroyed the myth that kung-fu masters were badass when the truth is, they would get completely dominated and destroyed by any true mma fighter!

any of you guys wouldnt last 20 seconds with a high school wrestler

check out the video of a teenage royce gracie completely destroying a real kung fu fighter who actaully has quite a few fights.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-v.s.-Jason-Delucia?v=jFWw46P-6WM&search=royce%20gracie

AS FOR YOU MASTERKILLER

why dont you post some video's of kung fu actaully working against mma?

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 11:15 PM

im sure all of you probably could beat him but choose not to because it is against everything you stand for. i mean, come on, hes only man who participates in sanctioned fights against real ranking opponents. that should be no match for the 7 deadly styles of kung fu.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Frank-Mir-MMA?v=JvNWvISiiIo&search=frank%20mir

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:19 PM

AS FOR YOU MASTERKILLER

why dont you post some video's of kung fu actaully working against mma?

OK. As soon as you post some videos of MMA guys beating San Shou fighters.

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:20 PM

Can you beat him?

Jules

01-16-2006, 11:25 PM

that was directed at all you guys!
all you kung-fu guys would get destroyed by any high school wrestler. im just stating the OBVIOUS, its been proven that kung-fu does not work.

Blah blah blah etc

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

All of which translates as, "I am a serial troll, pls ignore me, Kthxbai!

~~Jules

Chief Fox

01-16-2006, 11:25 PM

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 11:25 PM

are you reffering to cung le? if so, the man refuses to fight real competition. i could post videos of him beating up tomato cans all day but what would that prove? and who ever mentioned anything about san shou? the fact is simple, you are trying to cop out, i presented an arguement, posted videos that back up my arguement, you guys are all jokes!

i just posted a bunch of videos of mma and mma destroying other arts, you have yet to post ONE single video of anything! ill tell you why, because there is no proof of kung fu beating any style! kung fu masters say they can beat anyone but they refuse to fight! i call bull**** on every shaolin master in the history of martial arts!

bruce lee even said that any man with a few months of wrestling and western boxing training would defeat any kung fu master.

the truth hurts doesnt it!

mma KO1 kung fu

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:27 PM

http://www.iamimmortal.com/OG/bjgay.wmv

In every MMA fight, one guy always loses. Therefore, MMA only works 50% of the time.

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:29 PM

Ian Freeman beat Frank Mir. That means Mir sucks.

Chief Fox

01-16-2006, 11:29 PM

Wow, we all admire your video posting and uninformed verbal attacking skills. So what do you train in? What's your fight record? When have you tested your skills? Where's the video?

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 11:30 PM

I hear that tuna fish is 97% water. Is that true?

What exactly is the purpose of your post? Are you trying to say that kung fu doesn't work? If you are, then say it.

I find it interesting that the guy in the video actually does a chinese salutation before one of his fights. Maybe he has a CMA background otherwise, why the chinese salutation?

No doubt, the guy is a good fighter.

the guys name is frank mir, my personall favorite

heres another favorite if you like seeing unorthodox fighting

http://www.youtube.com/w/Genki-Sudo-Highlight?v=UU6653QBK4M&search=genki%20sudo

David Jamieson

01-16-2006, 11:32 PM

His mother beat him all throughout his boyhood.

Hey tunafish, you another fanboy over from nuthuggers anon come here to give us a lesson in the Real 574337 D34D1y?

lol

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:32 PM

Genki Sudo believes in Chi blasts.

Chief Fox

01-16-2006, 11:34 PM

the guys name is frank mir, my personall favorite...
Your favorite what?

ASSCLOWN?

David Jamieson

01-16-2006, 11:35 PM

that was directed at all you guys! all you kung-fu guys would get destroyed by any high school wrestler. im just stating the OBVIOUS, its been proven that kung-fu does not work.

another thing, why do they teach not to fight in certain arts, is it because the master knows their students cannot fight.

taking martial arts like kung-fu give people a false sense of security. these guys get out of the dojo just itching to strike someone dead with the dim mak, little do they know they are due for a serious ass kicking.

wake up people, the stuff you guys train in will only get your ass kicked!

Hey Tuna fish. Why are you here? Go back to fanboy nuthugger.com and drool over naked mmaers as you flip between clips and mattbatlle photo pages. :rolleyes:

where do these guys come from and could someone please kick his sorry ass to the cub before we are once again polluted by the rants and raves of yet another fanboy.

p.s, my snake fist will defeat any 3 month trained in any thing.

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:35 PM

Your favorite what?

ASSCLOWN?

His favorite masturbation material.

tuna fish

01-16-2006, 11:41 PM

im just trying to figure out why so many kung fu masters claim they can do so much BS but never back it up! why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?

the entire point of ufc was to introduce the world to GJJ, which was unknown to most around the world at the time. time has passed, you would see alot of guys claiming to be kung fu fighters get completely destroyed and dominated by grapplers.

eventually all the weak styles were weeded out and the ones that actually work are still being used today.

as for my training, was a former high school wrestler. went to states, got eliminated in the first round, placed first in regionals twice. western harnett high, considered to be the second best school for wrestling in NC, fuquay varina being first. do enough research, you might find me which is alot more then what i would find on all you unknown kung fu masters.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Wanderlei-Silva?v=RFYULNsMfVs&search=mma%20silva

GreenCloudCLF

01-16-2006, 11:44 PM

why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?

Proven By whom?

eventually all the weak styles were weeded out and the ones that actually work are still being used today.

Actually today's UFC has people in a mixed (hence MMA) background, including striking from Chinese styles...

as for my training, was a former high school wrestler. went to states, got eliminated in the first round, placed first in regionals twice. western harnett high, considered to be the second best school for wrestling in NC, fuquay varina being first.

When I was 18 and only had Kung Fu training I choked out a regional wrestling champion who had 15 lbs on me...was this you?

I have no BJJ experience yet beat a wrestler (at his own ground game)...with Kung Fu knowledge only...

MasterKiller

01-16-2006, 11:48 PM

why do you guys continue to train in something that was proven to not work?

My stuff works all the time.

GreenCloudCLF

01-16-2006, 11:55 PM

I haven't even read this post, why is it the MMA vs. Kung-Fu threads blow up so quickly?

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 12:02 AM

personally i could care less about the law. if i meet a grappler on the street and he uses arm bars and sheet like that i'm liable to use fu jows to tear at muscles and maim body parts.

Professional fighting is all good but not everyone is a professional fighter, but some of us have to use our gung fu on the street. but i think i would have joined the UFC if i was never parallyzed from the waist down. plus i'm 38 this year and wish it all came alot sooner.

but who's to say that we all couldn't train like ufc fighters without becoming one to keep up our skills, especially as teachers.

unless this new guy is the one on the video, by pass him. he's only talking smack.

peace

Design Sifu

01-17-2006, 12:02 AM

I came accross Tuna Fish at about post #4... by post #5 I asked him to chill out or get banned. Posts 6-9 where all inflamatory posts... "this guy can beat you up etc." Starting threds titled "The whole world is laughing at you" indicated his inability to do more than troll.

I took him down. His web-fu was weak. carry on the coversation to your hearts content.

TenTigers

01-17-2006, 12:06 AM

One, tuna fish-Subitai fought and won a UFC-and he is Hung-Ga, um that's a style of Kung-Fu.
Two-I have only seen one other "Kung-Fu" guy fight Gracie-and it is doubtful he was actually a Kung-Fu practitioner at all. By the way he fought and moved, I'd say he was mostly some made up style, or a beginner.
Three-why are you trying so hard? Is there some reason why you are actually here, or are you alsogoing on the judo, Karate,etc boards as well?
Did you have a bad experience at a Kung-Fu school? What is your story?
Why the name tuna fish?

lkfmdc

01-17-2006, 12:08 AM

Awww, by the time I showed up he's been crushed, added to mayo and spread out on the toast of moderation... :mad:

I went to a seminar with SHogun and Ninja yesterday... lots of fun

GreenCloudCLF

01-17-2006, 12:09 AM

TT,

tuna fish cause of the smell from his vagina...you know being to much of a p*ssy to challenge a Kung Fu man face to face and go the internet route instead

Jules

01-17-2006, 12:51 AM

THe troll is hungry. Don't feed it, and it will go away.

~~Jules

ChinoXL

01-17-2006, 01:18 AM

o.. guess i'm a little too late to shed some light to this poor kid :p okay wells i'mma tell you this... why kung-fu works.. okay? i too do bjj so dun worry about that. if you want me to verify how legit i am i go to serra jitsu at huntington training under matt serra. difference in kung fu is that they would rip your skin.. grab your nuts, gouge your eyes, etc.. which is unbelivabily painful.. and the skin thing has been done to me.. that itself made me not want to go for the armbar because i fear that he will try to rip my nuts.. (true story not fun) and people do bite.. ANYWAYS why kung-fu works.. bjj works sure only on a 1v1 sitution .. which in any case is rare in a street fight. Most likely you'll be ganged up by 3-5 or more people .. and when you do a double leg take down on one kid.. they'll play soccer with your head.. Now .. kung-fu is good for FASTEST MOST EFFICENT WAY to take somebody out.. in other words.. MMA goes for a double leg take down//fireman whatever ... the CMA guy in reality will try to dig his fingers in your eye and proceed to pull.. well that's my 2 cents

Merryprankster

01-17-2006, 01:25 AM

MMA goes for a double leg take down//fireman whatever ... the CMA guy in reality will try to dig his fingers in your eye and proceed to pull.. well that's my 2 cents

Ummm... No?

In reality, the guy who tries this will, 99% of the time or more, wind up on his back.

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 01:53 AM

Green Cloud

01-17-2006, 02:17 AM

i thought it was already proven what works and what doesnt as far as martial arts goes. here are a few videos and i want to hear what you guys think of these PROVEN fighters. im totally skeptical about kung-fu styles working in real life situations. heres a few videos i wanted to share, please enjoy them.

no need to download, just click and watch. these are very entertaining. enjoy
notice the arm snapping towards the end!

http://www.youtube.com/w/Frank-Mir-MMA?v=JvNWvISiiIo&search=frank%20mir

this man considered the greatest fighter in the world

http://www.youtube.com/w/Fedor-HL?v=dI6BZ0FMV7w&search=fedor

TKD vs. grappling
http://www.youtube.com/w/TKD-VS.-MMA%28Cage-Match%29?v=l9Sf72k8FKg&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Quinton-Jackson-HL?v=4CY4ZT3J7rU&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/mma-desire?v=7ro3nRP-d3g&search=mma

kung fu vs. gracie juijitsu
http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-v.s.-Jason-Delucia?v=jFWw46P-6WM&search=mma

http://www.youtube.com/w/Kazushia-Sakuraba?v=hgMi-SbuP5w&search=mma

I watched all these vids and personaly I don't get it. Can you say wwf??? One of the first styles I studied was Jiu-jitsu for 7 years way before people ever herd of it. Never felt comfotable using it in a fight. Perhaps it was because I didn't like using my face to close the gap. I was conflicted, Iwanted something more superior.

I didn't feel it was nessary to be a big mean steroid monster to be able to protect myself. Anyway I took kung fu while studying jiu-jitsu and found that not only did kung fu provide me with lots of striking techniqes but it also had lots of throwing tech., joint locking tech., and groud fighting.

Well I figured I could trane in bunch of different martial arts to fill in all the gaps, but that would make me a jack of all trades and a master of none. Or I can Invest my life in one complete martial art.

I fought many grapplers in my life and never lost once. It was actualy childs play, not that having prior knowledge of other styles didn't help me defeat other stylist.

I had a bunch of Gracie guys rent space in my kwoon for a while and were convinced upon meeting me that they would convert me. well I was as polite as I could be so I let them show me there stuff, hey I'm not stupid. When it came to fighting me they didn't stand a chance.

Now in kung fu we don't trane as hard as we do to be rolling around with some big sweaty guy. Hey maybee if I was gay I might like some guy sweating all over me.

The chinese martial arts is more sophisticated than that. We train to plunge our fingers though an atackers eyes, or to detach one testicles. Focus is a big part of the traning since most of our strikes are aimed at vital areas and are designed to maim or kill.

As far as the video with the kung fu guy that was fighting a Gracie, well I watched it and that guy didn't look like he knew kung fu, I thought the Gracie guy was the kung fu guy at first.

Size matters when it comes to grappling, in Kung fu you try to develop inner strength and superior martial art technique in order to defeat an opponent.

I hear Chung Lee is going to be in the UFC soon lets see what happens.

rogue

01-17-2006, 05:26 AM

OMG, Not the dreaded high school wrestler again.:eek:

Doesn't look like I've missed much since I've been gone. Sorry I dragged you back bro. :D

Watchman

01-17-2006, 06:05 AM

Sorry I dragged you back bro.

LOL! I'll have to check myself back into the methadone clinic again.

Merryprankster

01-17-2006, 06:11 AM

actually as i said earlier, i may end up on my back you can get me into a head lock, arm bar, or whateve, but if i start ripping into your flesh and tearing it wide open, yank your ear off your head, or even pop your nuts (squish) i'm sure it will turn the tides. the person being ripped up won't want to get ripped up anymore.

Jesus, not this stuff again.

First, as for tearing flesh, I offer the following - go get a raw turkey from the store and try tearing it apart with your bare hands. Get back to me when you can do this.

Secondly, assuming that you aren't engaged in a fight with a drunken fratboy any "good grappler" (tm) is going to be in a far better position to do all the things you are talking about at that point than you are.

Thirdly, these are not necessarily fight enders, nor do they incapacitate. By contrast, armbreaks and choking somebody until they pass out are much more effective in terms of taking the fight out of somebody. I have been hit, squished, kicked in the jumblies and not all of the shots are the sort that make you sit down. Some are mind you.

Fourth and finally, you had best get them right because you're looking at pretty much a one shot deal. I hope they are in reach for you, which they may not be, and I hope you nail it on the first go, because unless you know what you are doing on the ground w/regards to positioning, there is a strong possibility that you are not going to get that chance again.

The people here with groundfighting experience will probably echo my sentiments.

In case people are thinking I'm on the Kung Fu doesn't work bandwagon, that's not true at all. Good training is good training, period, and I've met too many people who've trained in too many different things and been quite good at what they do. Note that I am not talking about the whole "fight experience," am discussing two specific things - defense to takedowns and groundfighting tactics - which I think, perhaps, I've got some insight to.

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 06:55 AM

you can believe what you want, but i am no martial artist without substance. first and foremost im a street fighter, as you should know being from oakland, a street fighter can out whip a good martial artist. since i got both in me i fare pretty well.

plus, if i jab your eyes and you can't see anything you better be good at blind ground work.

i talk about the tiger claw usage because i've used it and tore someone wide open the first time. see i train my tiger claw and i know where to reach. if you think the nuts or your face is the only thing in danger then you are clueless to what real fu jow usage is about.

this is no argument, you have your opinion and i have mine. for me i know what works and what doesn't. And I talk about what i know.

what part of oakland are you from?

what is your style? do you practice around the lake?

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 06:57 AM

oh yeah, the ear is one of the easiest parts of your body to tear off.;)

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 07:07 AM

doesn't tuna fish smell? i never liked sea food anyway.

i don't think anyone cares about tuna fish. He comes on just like a teenager too proud for his own good. he keeps asking who could beat this guy or that guy. what i want to know is who can you beat tuna fish?

you are calling everyone jokes, yet you haven't revealed your self. so its just all talk from where you stand, thats ok, if you're bored and have nothing to do its ok, talk all the sh1t you want. it is what it is.........sh1t, isn't it?

hsk

greendragon

01-17-2006, 07:26 AM

Those videos were not fights, they were commercials, only hype.
As concluded before, it is the man and not the style that wins or loses.
Merry Prankster, you have my respect and may be the most knowledgable fighter on the board. I have easily defeated MMA/BJJ guys with Kung Fu on the street, but only because they were amateurs or they would not be out in the bars attacking people. Probably wanting to impress their friends and alcohol clouds their judgement. They could get hurt that way. I don't pick fights but I look like a hippy so skin heads kind of gravitate my way. I always try to use arm bars or aikido techniques to be compassionate as they might have mamas who love them.

FatherDog

01-17-2006, 07:56 AM

hsk - have you ever torn someone's ear off?

Have you ever eyegouged a wrestler attempting to take you down?

unkokusai

01-17-2006, 08:06 AM

unkokusai

01-17-2006, 08:11 AM

I fought many grapplers in my life and never lost once. It was actualy childs play, not that having prior knowledge of other styles didn't help me defeat other stylist.

I had a bunch of Gracie guys rent space in my kwoon for a while and were convinced upon meeting me that they would convert me. well I was as polite as I could be so I let them show me there stuff, hey I'm not stupid. When it came to fighting me they didn't stand a chance.

Now in kung fu we don't trane as hard as we do to be rolling around with some big sweaty guy. Hey maybee if I was gay I might like some guy sweating all over me.

The chinese martial arts is more sophisticated than that. We train to plunge our fingers though an atackers eyes, or to detach one testicles. Focus is a big part of the traning since most of our strikes are aimed at vital areas and are designed to maim or kill..

..........as I was saying............................:rolleyes:

ChinoXL

01-17-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:
Merryprankster's
Ummm... No?
In reality, the guy who tries this will, 99% of the time or more, wind up on his back.

okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard.. if you want to get technical fine. I did a double leg take down and I was in a kung-fu guys guard (my good friend in mantis school) .. you kno what he did? he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!! i jumped up.. and that second i did he got out.. and it's weird it's like suprise pain.. have someone squeeze a little peice of your inner thigh as hard as they can.. remember a little peice :rolleyes: BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.. especially with adrennaline..

unkokusai

01-17-2006, 09:06 AM

.............as I was saying..................:rolleyes:

ChinoXL

01-17-2006, 09:30 AM

i dunno wat ur sayin buh it hurts :mad:

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 09:39 AM

only the stupid focks like this unkokusaid cat.

let him swim in all his ingorance.:rolleyes:

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 09:46 AM

ok who let the special (yellow bus) kids out? one of the got into our part of the playground.:confused:

unkokusai

01-17-2006, 01:47 PM

let him swim in all his ingorance.:rolleyes:

Yeah, let me swim in all my ignorance. You bet your ass on scratching and biting and eye-poking instead of being able to actually fight, but I'll swim in ignorance.:rolleyes:

Nick Forrer

01-17-2006, 02:26 PM

Jesus Christ there is a lot of bollocks on this thread:eek: ..........grappling will give you (amongst other things)........balance, posture, controls/grips/ties and movement - especially of the hips. All these things increase your ability to eye gouge, bite and grab flesh and also your ability to neutralise your opponents attempts to do the same. If you dont train it (ground fighting) dont bank on your ability to magically be able to do it under pressure when the shi_t its the fan.

And as for the grappling = gay comment thats says more about the posters insecurities and prejudices than those who recognise that ground and clinch are elements of any fight and should be trained rather then just to put the head in the sand and hope it all goes away.;)

hskwarrior

01-17-2006, 04:55 PM

David Jamieson

01-17-2006, 05:48 PM

One, tuna fish-Subitai fought and won a UFC-and he is Hung-Ga, um that's a style of Kung-Fu.

In all fairness, I think it's best to Let O talk about his UFC stuff and what his influences were there. I think he attributed quite a bit to fma in what I read, but I would let him speak to that. He is a member here, like a few others who regularly fight in sportive combative venues.

Anyway, good call DS! You da man, da man wit da sharpie pen!

God, I was only cringing at having to endure the taunts of yet another nuthugger fanboy.

Merryprankster

01-18-2006, 03:16 AM

Merry Prankster, you have my respect and may be the most knowledgable fighter on the board.

I appreciate your respect, thank you. I don't know that I am the most knowledgeable fighter on the board, however. I think you will find that there are several others here with more experience and more knowledge than me.

hskwarrior,

I do not train in any TCMA. I never have. I have ten years of grappling experience, and a smattering of boxing.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions - but, I do urge you to seek out some "good grapplers" regardless of style and try the things you are talking about. I suspect you will be as unpleasantly surprised as many straight wrestlers are when they try MMA for the first time, thinking their straight wrestling will get them through - it's a different ball of wax when somebody is trying to hit you and submit you.

re the ear: I have had my ear partway torn off in a wrestling match. It was not a fight ender. I didn't know it until my headgear filled up with blood and began pouring down the side of my head. It made quite a mess.

he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!!

Define tear. Was there significant bleeding? Separation of tissue from body? Secondly, pain is just pain. You get used to it. People dig elbows into my inner thigh all the time...discomfort is an inherent part of grappling. You learn very quickly what is danger and what is merely unpleasant.

okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard..

I disagree. "Good grapplers" bury their head, shut space down, immobilize your hips and isolate the body part they want to attack. A "poke" in the eye is merely annoying. I wrestled an entire match with double vision and screwed up depth perception because of an accidental poke in the eye. I also won. Grappling is extremely tactile - this is why so many blind people wrestle and do quite well. I don't need to be able to see to continue. In fact, "blind" training is often part of regular grappling training. It develops sensitivity to subtle shifts in balance and movement.

BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.

I disagree. Think about how hard it is simply to punch somebody in the face if they don't want you to. When I boxed, if I landed 9 solid shots per round, I was doing pretty good, as was my opponent. Examine the punch counts of professional boxers and you will see, on average, only a 20-30% land rate. The eyes are but a small part of the face. They are small targets and moving. In order to really gouge an eye you need a couple of things:

1. The opponents head must be relatively still.
2. You need to have something the head will brace against, (like the other hand) because they are going to jerk backwards when you stick your digit in their eye, which negates the gouge.

Now, you could hold their head with one hand and gouge with the other. But you're going to need to find a way to immobilize their body too, because they aren't just going to move their head around, but their body too. But nobody with an ounce of sense is simply going to let you do this - and the target and weapon are both small. Further, with adrenalin pumping, studies have consistently shown that fine motor skills DECREASE, rather than increase. This means that accuracy goes down.

Can it happen? You bet! Would it be effective to gouge out an eye - probably, although there is no guarentee it would end the fight. Is it LIKELY? I don't think it is. This is what I would refer to as a "low percentage" technique. Nice to have in your back pocket, but not the stuff fighting skill is made of.

BTW, how much grappling experience do you have? You refer to double leg takedown, but I've often seen "the drunken fratboy tackle" passed off as a double leg in demonstrations, when, in fact, it's nothing of the sort. I'm trying to gauge what you actually did, not be an *******.

ChinoXL

01-18-2006, 03:50 AM

sure i'll tell you exacitly what happened.. i've been rolling for a good year.. and was wrestling in highschooll.. really into all martial arts..

So what happened is that it's a "friendly" match but it wasn't pleasent.. My favorite takedown without gi is the single leg take down with your head inside and you're tripping the remaining leg that's standing and using your head to take them down (usually in half guard after this). Did that takedown and from half guard he did some weird grip.. like a panther claw thing and twisted inside my inner thigh.. I was suprised by the pain and jumped a little bit.. as that happened that quick second I've got lucky and got him in the full mount.. and could of gotten him in a arm bar.. BUTTT because of what he did he installed a little fear factor inside me so i didn't want to lose it and get tore some more (if i get stacked while attempting armbar).. then he pinched my balls.. i've tapped.. i swear he was holding me by the balls.. literally..

well.. i actually dun think eye gouging is that easy.. but when someone put their palm on your face they'll try to dig fingers in your eye.. not slowly .. but a quick nail digging jam. Never personally happened to me.. but i could see how it could be done.

By the way elbow thigh is slow pain compared to the panther grip which is more like a electric shock..

bigdoing

01-18-2006, 04:17 AM

Frank Mir: Well, during my training I always look more to finish a fight. That probably came from my history in stand-up with my father in the Kenpo Karate school. I had always done more what looked like kickboxing than ground. I didn’t actually do ground until I was 19 or 20 years old. I didn’t know what jiu-jitsu looked like before I even walked into a gym. I went through that strategy when I came to stand-up and said “OK, why sit here and exchange 15 shots and extend the fight? I had known that the longer the fight lasts, the chances are anybody can get caught or hurt. So as soon as an opponent would make a mistake, and do something that could decisively cause damage, such that the fight starts to lean in your favor - not necessarily look to finish the fight, because sometimes that can make you overextend yourself, but definitely every moment I can make my opponent pay for a mistake or a mis-step. So I pretty much transfer that into my jiu-jitsu and say, “OK, the minute you make a mistake I’m going to grab something and try to cause damage, so if I break your arm, you can’t use it anymore.”

http://www.boxinginsider.com/mma/stories/77370735.php

Well, considering Frank Mir was what? in his mid twenties during that posted clip...that means like 80% of his life he studied kenpo..whic, we know is not traditional chinese martial arts...but....as hskwarrior will atest..if ed parker learned some clf..then....SHUT THE FIZZLE UP

unkokusai

01-18-2006, 05:16 AM

So what happened is that it's a "friendly" match but it wasn't pleasent.. My favorite takedown without gi is the single leg take down with your head inside and you're tripping the remaining leg that's standing and using your head to take them down (usually in half guard after this). Did that takedown and from half guard he did some weird grip.. like a panther claw thing and twisted inside my inner thigh.. I was suprised by the pain and jumped a little bit.. as that happened that quick second I've got lucky and got him in the full mount.. and could of gotten him in a arm bar.. BUTTT because of what he did he installed a little fear factor inside me so i didn't want to lose it and get tore some more (if i get stacked while attempting armbar).. then he pinched my balls.. i've tapped.. i swear he was holding me by the balls.. literally.. ..

Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a wuss.

greendragon

01-18-2006, 06:31 AM

I was knocked down on the street once and used a thumb in the eye with eagle claw I thought I had ripped the guys face off. That and a solid throat punch had no effect because the gangbanger was wired on drugs. It was the punch to the nads that detered him from finishing me. Although I was on the ground, having a technical advantage did no good because the blow that put me there made me weak, could barely move my arms & legs, I stayed down and focused all my energy into one shot, good thing that worked. I lost that one but am now much wiser for it.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 06:48 AM

..........as I was saying............................:rolleyes:

Unkokusai, you have many valid points and I do understand some of the points that you are making. I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu. How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin. Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

My point Unkokusai is that kung fu is mixed martial arts wich makes this conversation pointless. I started out a devoted follower of jiu jitsu, but found the style was limmited.

Once I learned Kung Fu became a good striker and didn't have to go to the ground every time someone attacked me made my life easier. I hate going to the ground it sucks you get all skuffed up cut and sustain more damage from the pavement grading the skin off your back.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground especialy when in most fights youre being attacked by several people, and while you are in the mounted position humping your oponent youre getting stabbed.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

excuse my spelling it's late. In short I think we should familiarize ourselves in different systems of martial arts so we can figure out how to defeat them with our own system.

I love my style and am intregued by other styles. It suits me, but fight me not my style, because if I loose it's not my system that failed me but simply that I failed.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 07:06 AM

My last post was directed to merryprankster not unkokasi not realys shure who unkokusai is or what his point was.

sorry for the missunderstanding I got confused who I was replying too.

ChinoXL

01-18-2006, 07:14 AM

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally? how would you be a wuss when they got your babies? To tell you the truth I did NOT expect it. I was going with the bjj format and the kung-fu guy was doing their own thing. Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it? and then ask him to get your balls (it's now in his hands).. tell me how that feels especially if that's the first time someone had ever attacked you there. AND EXCUSE ME FOR MAKING THE STORY A LITTLE MORE DRAMATIC.. I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO SHARE A MISHAP and in my experience everytime i was in a street fight i was either outnumbered and they had weapons or it's a rumble with weapons however the school fights in highschool was 1d and i taken them to ground bjj works great

unkokusai

01-18-2006, 08:33 AM

to unkokusai, have anybody held you by the balls literally?

Are you coming on to me? You need to stop that. Hommie don't play dat.

unkokusai

01-18-2006, 08:35 AM

Get a kung-fu guy to panther grip your inner thigh with a 90 degree twist it was the first time i've ever felt that and it was pain inflicted in such a way that I wasn't use to; wouldn't you do a little jump if you weren't prepared for it?

If your message is that you need to toughen up a bit, then go for it. Don't try to find 'rules' in your *ahem* sensitivity.

unkokusai

01-18-2006, 08:36 AM

Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further..

I see. Wrestling ended up at Shaolin and was 'perfected' there? You are just guzzling the Koolaide now.:rolleyes:

unkokusai

01-18-2006, 08:38 AM

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.
.

I very sincerely believe that you understand little of a practical nature about either and are swimming in the Koolaide.

Mr Punch

01-18-2006, 09:05 AM

I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Jiu jitsu is not a word. Jujutsu comes from Japan. There are suggestions that it came with the first settlers in Japan from China or Korea up to a couple of thousand years BC. There are also suggestions that it came from China in any of the successive migrations. There is absolutely no evidence. Furthermore there are no linguistic similarities in jujutsu and any Chinese expressions, unlike 'karate' which means 'China fist' for example. There is however some evidence that the oldest jujutsu styles were started around the 12th century in Japan (written evidence in terms of scrolls of foundation), and further some evidence that it comes from sumai, the (Japanese) forerunner of sumo.

But what's more is... who the **** cares? It's been Japanese for a thousand years. And it's evolved a lot, as should kung fu. If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles. If you just want it for self defence against 'the untrained, unarmed thug' who also happens to be an incompetant moron you may be ok but I wouldn't stake my life on it!

Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu.No, Muay Thai comes from Thailand. Or at least there's zero evidence and not many people suggesting otherwise.

How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin.Bing-bong! Congratulations! One out of four! No evidence about the monk though, AND plenty of evidence to suggest that Okinawans had their own fighting arts before which would have been mixed with it, but nice try.

Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.Wrestling comes from everywhere.

There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.

Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose. Full stop.

I don't believe I7m even wasting my time on this fantasy bollocks.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground ...Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules.Bull. Jujutsu like kung fu was developed as a battlefield art.

The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.Ignorance.

SimonM

01-18-2006, 11:51 AM

If you're practising traditional kung fu for fighting and your style hasn't changed in a thousand years chances are what you're practising is not going to be so useful against someone who's practising a well-rounded mix of styles.

Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.

My Sifu in Canada trained in Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Hei Long Wushu, a couple different types of Taiji and good old western boxing. Think there was no blending? NBDMA is a really good school but it's not the only good Gong Fu school there are many others out there.

Now there may be people who practice styles that haven't changed in 100 years and that is problematic. There are other people who practice styles that have changed - for the worse - in the last 35-40 years.

And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.

Wrestling comes from everywhere.

This is true. In my case most of the wrestling I have learned has origins either in Hei Long (which in turn drew from Mongolian sources) or from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).

There are cave paintings and stone carving from all over prehistory with pictures of people fighting... wrestling, striking whatever... All ancient cultures had something, and since you're at it Shaolin was a Buddhist temple, and Buddhism itself comes from India.

Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch. ;)

Most styles merged with others, stole from others, took over others, it's human nature, and esp the nature of fighting... the ancient Chiense stories are full of such examples... what the hell does this ahve to do with anything?
Sure kungfu [i]was[/s] mixed MA, but if it doesn't adapt to the new, it's gonna lose.

Adapt yes. But that does not mean burning our frog-button jackets and denying that CMA has merit. There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art. It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts. We have to come to the realization that the great innovators of CMA were precisely that - innovators. From Wong Fei Hong to the much debated Chan Tai San these were people who studied different styles, who fought to develop improvements to their styles ans who were not content to be curators of a cultural relic. This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.

Nobody ever advocates this. Except kung fu people who know nothing about jujutsu trying to do it down.

And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.

Mr Punch

01-18-2006, 01:51 PM

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?! :D

Um Mat, may be preaching to the choir on this but nobody is practicing a style of Gong Fu that hasn't changed in 1000 years. Nobody.Ahm a-singin!
Some people think they are!

And there are plenty of people who come from TCMA kwoons that realize that evolution and improvement of the art are a part of the tradition of Gong Fu. We don't have to worship at the altar of choke-meister-royce to do this either.Yep.

This is true. Of course!

...from folk wrestling (largly of British derivation if I am not off my guess).Maybe. There's a helluva a lot of wrestling from all over Europe. Britain seemed particularly rich in this tradition... prob cos we had folks from all over Europe.

Ok, hold it right here, full stop for a sec. We all know that Shaolin was NOT the birthplace of CMA right folks? Ok, good, I don't want this to descend into another "Gong Fu came from india thread", those ones make my knuckles itch. ;)Sure, but I was addressing somebody else's bollocks! Don't shoot the messenger!

...and denying that CMA has merit... There is just as much merit in well-trained CMA as in any other martial art. Ahm a-still singin!

It's just that we have a larger number of people in CMA who want to preserve their art like it's some sort of museum relic than in a few other arts. Which is ok for those who want to practise something traditional... like ikebana, or making corn dollies. Not for practising fighting skills.

This is a fundamental tradition of Gong Fu.Yep. That's where Green Cloud and I actually agreed.

And the JJ guys have done their fair share of smack talking about Gong Fu. Much of which was also undeserved.Er... so what!? I also do my best to take them to task when I see it. This time, I wasn't talking about them!

ChinoXL

01-18-2006, 02:58 PM

wow unkokusai; another low blow.. you know what you have e-thug award no point in shyt talkin over the internet. And seriously when somebody hold you by the balls you don't want to fight anymore you freakin retard. Oh well I'mma stop feedin the troll.

SimonM

01-18-2006, 05:29 PM

Who ****ed in your cornflakes today?! :D

Didn't realize it came off grumpy. But then:

1: I have a cough which is annoying me.
2: I got a new girlfriend but she up and left to Datong and won't be back until the day before her birthday....
3: When I wrote that post I had just finished a weights workout and was a little sore.
4: I made the mistake of reading Bullshido recently and that ALWAYS puts me a bit on the offensive. I don't know why I ever type that URL in, I really don't.

Anyways sorry if it came off grouchy. :eek:

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 06:44 PM

okay even when the guy is on his back it is easy for him to get to your eyes especially if they apply the guard.. if you want to get technical fine. I did a double leg take down and I was in a kung-fu guys guard (my good friend in mantis school) .. you kno what he did? he tore my flesh from the inner thigh.. and IT HURTS~!!! i jumped up.. and that second i did he got out.. and it's weird it's like suprise pain.. have someone squeeze a little peice of your inner thigh as hard as they can.. remember a little peice :rolleyes: BUT i've strayed from point.. it is easy for ppl to dig fingers in your eye.. especially with adrennaline..

a few things here. One, YOU lost because your mind was weaker... Pain compliance is never the answer. Biting, scratching, gouging... these are all the "surprise pain" you are talking about. They aren't fight enders unless you let them be.

next, if you were in his guard and he reached your eyes - and was able gouge them before you could do ANYTHING, then there are holes in your guard passing game. being based properly - sitting up, back straight, weight going backward, his arms shouldn't even be long enough to reach your face. From there, pick the way you pass. If you fell into his guard, you control his arms via the armpits until you are able to sit back. Keep your head buried in his chest. Either way, you did something wrong somewhere...

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 06:52 PM

will someone come control the little retarded kid? he want's to play with the big kids, but he's going to get hurt.

anyways grappling is fine and nice to have in your arsenal, but you have to be a ufc fighter to beat a tough ass street fighter who has nothing to lose. your average everyday martial artist does not train with such intensity.

very untrue. We make our guys train as if they have a fight coming up. Why? because ALL of the teachers compete in something, and many of the students do as well. We don't cater to the ones who don't.

when it comes to the waist and hips and such, choy lee fut is a great way to go.

grappling is a nice supplement, don't get me wrong. but my gung fu system has a lot of good things in it.

peace.

nobody said your kung fu doesn't have good things. My longfist and jun fan had good things in it. But at the same time, it didn't prepare me for what happened when I was taken to the ground.

ChinoXL

01-18-2006, 07:31 PM

sevenstar.. when i mounted him.. he grabbed my balls i was saying the tear suprise meh and got me to an advantage.. and i'm saying what ended the match was him grabbing me by my balls literally..

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 07:39 PM

FatherDog

01-18-2006, 07:41 PM

1) Kung fu, when trained properly, can be a good striking system.

2) Kung fu styles are not grappling systems.

3) Unless you train a grappling system, the first time you get tackled by someone who does, or who happens to be larger and stronger than you, you are ****ed, and eye-gouging and flesh pinching will not save you unless your opponent is tremendously incompetent.

To summarize - Good kung fu is worth training in. But if you're not training in grappling too, there are holes in your game, and TEH DEADLY EYE GOUGE is not going to fill those holes.

There's a hole in most MMA-trained person's games, too - most MMA gyms don't address weapon range. The difference is that if you ask most MMA players what happens if a weapon enters the fray, the response is "I'll run like ****", whereas if you ask most kung fu players what happens if grappling enters the picture you get responses that belong in the realm of the ridiculous.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 08:13 PM

Ok boys and girls get the popcorn. The first recorded olympic wrestling match occured in the Olympics in 708 B.C. this is a fact not something that monkeys wrote on walls.

Greek customs and Ideas reached India were Jiu jistu's foundation was likely to have been born during Alexander the Great's conquest (356-323 B.C.). Greek culture was brought to areas that Alexander conqured.

His conquest streched all the way to India, and many say that greek influence in India led to the development of kung fu (wu shu).

The general Idea was embraced by most historians is that systemized Martial arts tech. came from India along with Buddhism.

The concept hre is that is that the Siu Lum temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bhodi Dharma introduced Buddism and Boxing (Senzuikyo) ( reference Akido and Chinese MA )

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

The next theory is that there were many forms of wrestling that had developedvin China one of the most notable is Horn wrestling called Jiao Dixi.

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Most likely arrived by the migrating Mongolians through now modern Alaska. Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

in short wresteling did exist in China and Mongolia before jiu jitsu did in Japan.

Mat are you paying attention???

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 08:20 PM

Unkokusai, you have many valid points and I do understand some of the points that you are making. I have a question for you, where do you think jiu jitsu came from?? I'l anwere that for you it came from kung fu. Or how about mu tai, you guessed it kung fu. How about karate yup from okinawa taught to the peasants by a monk from shaolin. Wresteling well being 100% greek I wana say greece but some people will argue it came from india but inevitably it ended up at shaolin and then was perfected even further.

hold the phone. I CHALLENGE you to show me DEFINITIVE evidence that jiu jistu came from china... you CAN'T. you can only find speculations. Why? because nobody really knows. jiu jitsu came from judo, which came from jujutsu. the history of jujutsu is VERY unclear. the japanese say that it was entirely a japanese creation. the chinese say it was brought to japan via a kempo guy named chen gimpin. NOBODY knows for sure.

the history of muay thai is equally muddy. speculation is that it came from either cambodia or burma, especially considering the similarities between thai and burmese arts. the original inhabitants were indeed immigrants from southern china, but if those people developed the art on their own independently of kung fu, then it is NOT a chinese style. Some people try to draw a crazy line connecting muay thai to wing chun, but AFAIK, this cannot be validated either.

How in the world do you think the chinese perfected wrestling? Define 'perfected'

My point Unkokusai is that kung fu is mixed martial arts wich makes this conversation pointless. I started out a devoted follower of jiu jitsu, but found the style was limmited.

by today's standard, kung fu is not mma. the term mma denotes striking and ground grappling. The latter eliminates like 90% of kung fu schools from this definition.

Once I learned Kung Fu became a good striker and didn't have to go to the ground every time someone attacked me made my life easier. I hate going to the ground it sucks you get all skuffed up cut and sustain more damage from the pavement grading the skin off your back.

1. attend a bjj self defense seminar... it revolves around stand up grappling.
2. not all altercations happen on pavement.
3. not all altercations involve multiple attackers.
4. sometimes it is preferable to go to the ground.

It just doesn't make sense to volentarily go to the ground especialy when in most fights youre being attacked by several people, and while you are in the mounted position humping your oponent youre getting stabbed.

On the other hand, when the guy is a better striker than you and you are getting your arse kicked standing, take him down and finish him quickly. don't hump him until the two of you are alone, since you seem to be into that sort of thing.

Wresteling or jiu jitsu works only between gentleman in an arena with rules. The very meaning of jiu jitu is the gentle mens art. It's all about subduewing an apponent without hurting him.

ROFLMAO. I have a second job as a bouncer. we aren't allowed to strike. I use bjj and judo every d@mn night. what do you mean it only works between gentlemen? you sound like a moron... that's like saying kung fu only works if I let you work your techniques on me. The reason it's "gentle" is because of the means I use to throw you around... It's not like sumo or shuai chiao where you crash into the person to get them off balance. It's more like taiji - you use his balance and momentum against him to create the off balancing. But if you watch competition it's not gentle at all. that was merely the ideal behind it.

excuse my spelling it's late. In short I think we should familiarize ourselves in different systems of martial arts so we can figure out how to defeat them with our own system.

and while you reinvent the wheel, everyone else is ahead of the power curve.

I love my style and am intregued by other styles. It suits me, but fight me not my style, because if I loose it's not my system that failed me but simply that I failed.

if you get taken down and pounded or get a limb broken, it's not only your fault, but the fault of your system for not adequately addressing these things.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 08:30 PM

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.

How can you make that statement. Do your research.

Have you ever heard of sjia jow( mongolian wrestling,Judo) or Chi na( kaam na) or dog boxing or monkey boxing ( hou Kune) dei tong( ground cruelty or from the ground up. Or how about Bat gwua. All grapling arts in kung fu. How about Kung fu's modern sport San da( san shou).

I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum. Why don't you guys put up or shut up. There are plenty of amature San Da events that you guys can enter.

Just ask dave Ross he will point you guys in the right direction. Oh yea you get to weare boxing gloves, so no need to worry about finger gouging or having you testies tetached from your body.

MasterKiller

01-18-2006, 08:31 PM

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Most likely arrived by the migrating Mongolians through now modern Alaska. Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

???...The ancestors of Native Americans crossed the Berring Straight approx. 12,000 years ago.

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 08:33 PM

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

The next theory is that there were many forms of wrestling that had developedvin China one of the most notable is Horn wrestling called Jiao Dixi.

this form was practiced by the Mongolians, and later evolved into Jia Li wrestling without the horns. this form of wrestling can ce seenin native american cultures.

Jiali evolved and beacme xiangpu and is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan.

in short wresteling did exist in China and Mongolia before jiu jitsu did in Japan.

Mat are you paying attention???

On this, you are correct. shuai chiao influenced sumo. however, jujutsu did not come from sumo... it was it's own creation with no outside influence. you really aren't schooling anyone.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 08:46 PM

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 08:49 PM

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.

that is another of several stories. Another is that gempin learned three techniques and taught one techiques to three different japanese physicians. These three went on to create the first three systems of jujutsu. so many stories, so little evidnce. You still have yet to prove anything... and you won't.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 08:54 PM

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 08:56 PM

It's a very well known fact that the emigrated from the south of China. Later became famous due to the efforts of King Nareasau in 1560 A.D. Do your reasearch mat before you jump in and try to correct me.

perhaps you should learn to read. I never said there was speculation about whether or not the people immigrated from south china. even you should know that. speculation is where the art developed. As to be expected, the thais will say thailand. others say burma. either way, it developed independently of china. Not only that, but it's rep as a fighting style has surpassed that of china's, which is now a joke to most.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 08:59 PM

Mat listen up in the 16th century it is a well known fact that shaolin boxing and found its way to Okinawa from China. Oh by the way did I tell you I also hold a black belt in Go Ju Ryu. Anyhoo I don't feel the need to expand on this topic since you can ask any karate practitioner about it.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 09:15 PM

Seven star Who are you?? I wasn't even talking to you I was replying to Mats statement. Anyway read a book or an encyclopedia that's where I got most of my info.

Oh yea whe speaking to me don't use words like challenge since I spent the last couple of pages giving you stats based on facts.

Once again who are you, I love it when boys that Hide behind a computer screen with no real info or web site or contact info talk all big and bad.

As far as this conversation is concerned it's over I only want to debate with individuals that have some kind of credentials no you BOY!

Go back a few post and read your statements arent even relevent to this thread.

It's funny though how I'm probably the only kung fu guy on this thread wasting my time with a bunch of graplers.

SevenStar

01-18-2006, 09:21 PM

Seven star Who are you?? I wasn't even talking to you I was replying to Mats statement. Anyway read a book or an encyclopedia that's where I got most of my info.

doesn't matter who you addressed, you are still talking out of the same part of your anatomy...

Oh yea whe speaking to me don't use words like challenge since I spent the last couple of pages giving you stats based on facts.

no you haven't. the gempin story is NOT fact by any means.

Once again who are you, I love it when boys that Hide behind a computer screen with no real info or web site or contact info talk all big and bad.

I don't hide anywhere... www.memphisbjj.com - that's where I train and teach. When you're in the area, I'd love for you to check us out.

It's funny though how I'm probably the only kung fu guy on this thread wasting my time with a bunch of graplers.

mat, myself and others have indeed had cma training, not that it matters. In the meantime, have fun wasting your time, you'll probably learn something.

lkfmdc

01-18-2006, 09:38 PM

One day Adam was looking at Eve...

She was looking pretty good, so he jumped on top!!!! She wrapped her legs around him and thus the guard was created!!!!!

All jujitsu comes from the Garden of Eden, deal with it! It's a fact!

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 09:58 PM

Nice web site, Makes me want to go and update my web site Greencloud.net, I still don't think you went back enoughf in the threads. I was giving mat a disatation on the chinese martial arts, since he tried to correct my statements. I thought I would add accurate insite on the history of these various Martial arts.

Anyway I don't realy see my self going to Menphis tenn. anytime soon. But the same goes for you if ever in New York. There is plenty to see there, but I'm still curious about why you kung fu hatin guys with a one sided view are on this site since it's a kung fu forum. Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

actually I think I was in Tenn. once not much to see realy and I'm, not into country western.

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 10:01 PM

Ok dave you can haddle it from here I got to get back on the Mat. I've wasted all aftrenoon with these guys and I'm not getting anyware. Can you say sooo weee

Knifefighter

01-18-2006, 10:03 PM

Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu DID come from Brazil.

lkfmdc

01-18-2006, 10:06 PM

Japanese Jujitsu came from Japan
Brazilian Jujitsu came from Brazil
Lithuanian Jujitsu came from Lithuania
Mexican Junjistsu cam from Mexico

Maybe there's a trend here :rolleyes:

Green Cloud

01-18-2006, 10:52 PM

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu DID come from Brazil.

Can you read:confused:

SevenStar

01-19-2006, 01:49 AM

Anyway I don't realy see my self going to Menphis tenn. anytime soon. But the same goes for you if ever in New York. There is plenty to see there, but I'm still curious about why you kung fu hatin guys with a one sided view are on this site since it's a kung fu forum. Oh yea please don't tell me that your one of these guys that think Jiu Jitsu came from Brazil.

actually I think I was in Tenn. once not much to see realy and I'm, not into country western.

LOL, I grew up in va beach. I had the same country western view of memphis before I moved here... it's the complete opposite.

We're on KFM cuz it's a cool forum. I was actually training CMA when I first joined, then went back to mma stuff.

Merryprankster

01-19-2006, 02:33 AM

As long as people have been people, there has been fighting. This would include grappling and striking. There are indigenous styles all over the world. There is such a thing as "convergent evolution." The wheel didn't develop in one place then get passed to other places progressively. Similarly, since humans all function the same (one head, two arms, two legs), it stands to reason that sound fighting is based on sound principles, and those principles are universal. There is nothing special and unique about any fighting style - somebody, somewhere has/had something identical, similar, or analogous.

Ancient Sumerian texts discuss wrestling and grappling. The Sumerians are at least the contemporaries of the ancient civilizations in China and may predate them. The Indus valley civilization is the oldest known, and many practitioners of an Indian art, Kalari Payatt, insist the art is older than anything in China.

The point is that these things aren't linear. They ran in parallel. The Fijian natives, the Samoans, and the Maori all have indigenous fighting styles. You can find if you look, I am certain, fighting techniques and approaches in each that undoubtedly look like something from other arts and styles.

The Cornish have a jacket wrestling style. Judo is a jacket wrestling style. Using linear development, one must have come from the other. But we know that is not true. Sumo is a belt wrestling style. Glima is a belt wrestling style. They are totally unrelated except that they fall under the "grappling" umbrella.

Besides, even when things are linear, cultures have this wierd way of influencing each other; swapping bits of information and changing both parent and child.

Perfection/perfecting is a matter of intent. Perfect for what? I had a guy ask me once what was better, judo or bjj? I was there to say hey to a judo class because I knew a bunch of the people.

I asked "for what?"

For the record, grappling does not only work "between gentlemen." Stories abound of Judoka successfully dealing with street encounters, and in Brazil, BJJers do often wind up in streetfights, doing just fine.

Finally, re: sources/sourcing. History is not one of MA's long suits. Few people truly study it, and those that do must deal with all the myths that surround the subject. Documentation is light, and separating fact and fiction in the face of historical animosities, ethnic discrimination, word-of-mouth transmission, and other factors, can be a real headache.

Heck, look at the Bruce Lee - Wong Jack Man thing. Nobody seems to be able to figure out what really went down there, and that was just a couple of decades ago!

Yum Cha

01-19-2006, 03:16 AM

Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?

You guys are always ready to say how effective the grapplers arts are, but are you too myopic or insecure to discuss its weaknesses?

For Example, I've found grapplers are a bit hesitant against a stance like a deep boxer's i.e. the Kimbo Slice film. Not confounded, but it doesn't fit into their expectations. The high fake, low shoot "bread and butter" is more difficult. Granted, I've not played with the best, just a few...and with all things martial, you fight the man, not the style. Educate me.

I have yet to meet anybody that can hold out against a nut squeeze. it starts an involuntary reaction that is the opening, if not the closing. Of course, perhaps Gene is moving beyond that point now, but I can't say for sure.

As always, sissors beats paper, paper beats rock and rock beats sissors ad nausium. There is no art that has no weaknesses, as there is no man that is unbeatable. Well, perhaps one...at least on that day, and I guarantee IT AIN'T YOU!

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 04:08 AM

No need any fancy boxing skill. All you need is this (http://www.martialartsmart.net/prjt001.html). Money back gurantee and it truely works.

Don't you have some comic books to read?

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 04:11 AM

Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.
.

LOL! I believe that.

It would take a doorknob or some rotten fruit to be your equal! :rolleyes:

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 04:15 AM

Greek customs and Ideas reached India were Jiu jistu's foundation was likely to have been born during Alexander the Great's conquest (356-323 B.C.). Greek culture was brought to areas that Alexander conqured.

His conquest streched all the way to India, and many say that greek influence in India led to the development of kung fu (wu shu).

The general Idea was embraced by most historians is that systemized Martial arts tech. came from India along with Buddhism.

The concept hre is that is that the Siu Lum temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bhodi Dharma introduced Buddism and Boxing (Senzuikyo) ( reference Akido and Chinese MA )

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.

Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin beacme partcularly interestwed in pursuing this art, so then began the teaching in Japan and this was called Jiu Jitsu.

Gee, thanks professor :rolleyes:

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 04:17 AM

I hope all you Jiu-jitsu and wrestin enthusiast are paying attention espesialy Mat and Uno****usai.

Now please be quiet while I school you boys.

Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.

Knifefighter

01-19-2006, 06:21 AM

Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?
Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in.

I have yet to meet anybody that can hold out against a nut squeeze.
True, but the person experienced in grappling positions will usually be the person who pulls this move off.

As always, sissors beats paper, paper beats rock and rock beats sissors ad nausium. There is no art that has no weaknesses, as there is no man that is unbeatable.
That's the reason for training both striking and grappling.

Green Cloud

01-19-2006, 06:25 AM

Seriously. You are embarrassing yourself.

Unkokusai, all you have is one liners is that because you are scared you might embar-ass your self. You haven't had anything but stupid one liners to add. Are you retarted??? Is that why 7 star had to jump in and speak for you. Because your so stupid.

I have tried to make my point like a gentleman throughout this thread. I haven't insulted anyone. I have been clear and consise and have provided accurate data, wich by the way isn't writen on scroles or cave walls.

all my data is collected from encyclopedias. Get riff read a book be cool stay in school.

Maybee I should just say what ever is the popular thing to say so I can make you feel better. So one of the moderators like seven star don't kick me off.

Is this forum being moderated in Russia or something??

I was trying to adress some of the Issues that that guy tuna fish started. But he was kicked off. Hmm makes me wonder, Is it bad to gang bang or to childishly dispute whith out providing evidence.

You know what kills me??? It's the lack of respect for a reputable Sifu like me, Know I know why Doc fei wong stopped bothering with this forum.

SimonM

01-19-2006, 06:28 AM

Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in.

As long as the knees have a decent snap to them. Leave a knee up there and you might as well just say "single leg me please".

Green Cloud

01-19-2006, 06:40 AM

Green Cloud

01-19-2006, 06:51 AM

Not sure what unkokusai is going to say, but I'm sure it will be a one liner.

Yum Cha

01-19-2006, 07:40 AM

Thanks Knifefighter,
Do you feel a vulnerablility on the sides of the neck, or trapezius (sp) when shooting in, to say a forearm attack or downward crashing strikes, perhaps combined with a sprawl....?

I think as a striker it has to be an either or option, move laterally or evade, or go in for a solid knee up or spine/neck down attack.

Also, I've noticed a tendency for grapplers to try and tie up the arms in stand-up with "sticky" attacks, or to go high with strikes, sometimes feints, before going down for the shoot. It appears that they open their lower abdomen and legs to attack (teep or uppercut) when they go high, before the drop and shoot, ever get caught there, or is it just too small a window?

Originally Posted by Yum Cha

""Seeing that we have such a wealth of knowledge and experience from the Grappling community, perhaps you guys, whom are no doubt great fighters in your own right, could tell us TCMA guys, what it is about strikers that causes you trouble?""

Reply by Kinifefighter

"Someone with fast, powerful strikes who can strike while moving in a back/lateral motion and can throw knees as you are coming in."

Yum Cha

01-19-2006, 07:47 AM

CMA is about "problem solving" and "spikes ring" is just happen to be a good solution for the "ground fight".

Illegal to wear a "spikes ring"? I don't know such law exist. Besides, who is talking about "sport" here?

A chinese "friend" of mine once went the Tyson on the ear of a mongolian wrestler during a prize fight in northern china. It broke the hold, and he took him out.

After everybody put away the guns and the sensible discussion commensed as to if he had fairly won the purse, they accepted his arguement and paid him.

"Everything is Kung Fu"

****, I just love that story....

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 09:26 AM

People trained

- gun shooting,
- knife fight,
- stick fight,
- fight with bricks in hands,
- rocks dodging.

CMA guy not only train how to fight with bare hands but also train how to fight with weapons (single edge knife, double edges sword, spear, Kun Dao, steel chain, ...). Spikes ring is just one of those weapons and it happened to be so effective to use against "ground fight".

When talking about "ground fight", one cannot avoid talking about "spikes ring". People demo "defense against knife", "defense against gun". Have anyone seen any demo about "defense against spikes ring" in the "ground fight"? Why?

CMA is about "problem solving" and "spikes ring" is just happen to be a good solution for the "ground fight".

Illegal to wear a "spikes ring"? Not sure such law exist. Besides, who is talking about "sport" here? We are talking about "What truely works? what doesnt?"

Ok, Green Lantern. Best of luck to you and your magic ring:rolleyes:

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 09:31 AM

I have been clear and consise and have provided accurate data, . .

Gimme a break. You have provided "accurate" scientific data like:

"was likely to have been"

"many say"

"The general Idea was embraced"

"The concept hre is"

"The story supports the idea"

Sorry if I can't take you as seriously as you do, professor. :rolleyes:

unkokusai

01-19-2006, 10:21 AM

You know what kills me??? It's the lack of respect for a reputable Sifu like me, .

LOL!

Is anyone who says "a reputable Sifu like me" likely to be "a reputable Sifu"? I guess not.

Mr Punch

01-19-2006, 10:44 AM

Mat didn't say anythinjg of the sort!
Mat I often find that most grapplers are not my intelectual equals.

How can you make that statement. Do your research.I didn't say that at all. Read my post before YOU start talking about research. My arse is your intellectual equal.
Apart from which I did kungfu for about ten years before I started MMA... are you saying my intellect dropped when I started MMA? In which case it may be near yours now.

I don't even know what you so called grapplers are doing on this forum. Wing chun kung fu, nine years. Most days. MMA two years, once/twice a week if I'm lucky. I don't know where morons with BLIND prejudice incapable of holding civil discussion are doing on this forum.

...or having you testies tetached from your body.The last time a (mantis) fighter reached for my nuts, I elbowed him down his face with a chum jarn (a kung fu technique) and swept him with a lap sao (a kung fu tech) and a stamping kick (a kungfu tech). And anyway, do you have an argument?

Mr Punch

01-19-2006, 11:04 AM

The first recorded olympic wrestling match occured in the Olympics in 708 B.C. That would be reek wrestling then. Well done. Of course it's a well-known that NOBODY wrestled each other or grappled in any way before the Greeks thought of it. :rolleyes:

The story supports the idea That Jiu jitsu coming from china takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at the Buddist temple where he met the three Ronnin ( Masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogaya and Miura.The story (you made up) supports the idea (you made up). Now there's a surprise!

The Ming Dynasty ended in when 1640 something?

In the Kojiki written in 712, from stories passed down orally in the Yamato dialect (which died out in the 8th century BC), there are stories of wrestling techs, and other unarmed schools and matches and battles. Are you suggesting that in some way the native fighting arts of Japan that were in existance since the same time as the Olympic wrestling you mentioned had no influence on the origin of jujutsu? I have read a modern Japanese translation of the old Japanese Kojiki with my own eyes, how woiuld you like that refernced? And which encyclopediae EXACTLY did you get your information from? Because I can pretty much guarantee that the historians who wrote that would have been using the same kind of source material I've read.

There are other pictures and stories (in the Nihonshiki) of sumai from the Nara Period (ending 794 AD - when are you saying these arts came to Japan? End of the Ming Dynasty was it? Keep smoking). Now at this time, you have to remember that the Japanese based their capital city of Nara on the Tang capital in China. They LOVED the Chinese! They decided at the same time to adopt Chinese writing and everything else Chinese. Don't you think they'd have somehow thought to mention if their fighting came from China?

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.

So I'll just add that the word koryu (which means old-style) jujutsu was already used in the Muromachi Period (13hundred summat - 157-odd - look it up).

When did Chingimping come to Japan?

SimonM

01-19-2006, 11:19 AM

A chinese "friend" of mine once went the Tyson on the ear of a mongolian wrestler during a prize fight in northern china. It broke the hold, and he took him out.

After everybody put away the guns and the sensible discussion commensed as to if he had fairly won the purse, they accepted his arguement and paid him.

"Everything is Kung Fu"

****, I just love that story....

I think your Chinese friend may be embellishing somewhat. Guns are bloody rare in northern China. REALLY bloody rare. Like soldiers and swats and that is it.

People who are packing carry knives or (sometimes) chucks not guns.

paradoxbox

01-19-2006, 01:59 PM

I could go on... but you wouldn't listen which I suspect is why wise men like Unkokusai stick to one-liners.

So I'll just add that the word koryu (which means old-style) jujutsu was already used in the Muromachi Period (13hundred summat - 157-odd - look it up).

When did Chingimping come to Japan?

It's fair to say that in some way, most Japanese martial arts at some point passed through China or Korea. However in most cases for all the Japanese arts still known to exist now, they have been seperated from any Chinese influence for a very long time. For example gyokko ryuu kosshijutsu, or shinden fudou ryuu jutaijutsu are both thought to have come directly from China at some point between 1000 and 700 years ago. If you look at parts of these ryu they do bear a resemblance to some styles of Chinese fighting. However they are definately not Chinese.

And FWIW the term koryu as an official definition as a type of martial art only came into being in the mid-late 1800's. Back in the day, like for example 1520, everything was just bujutsu.

The story of jujutsu coming to Japan via China in the 1600's is totally wrong. It may have happened for a few specific ryu. But it's absolutely not the source of Japanese jujutsu. Jujutsu as we know it today has been practiced in Japan for more than 1500 years.

Some information I have read regarding Amatsu Tatara and Shinden Tatara leads me to believe that India played possibly the most important part in bringing martial arts to the far east. It would seem very likely that many martial art techniques did originate in Greece and Rome and eventually made their way eastward. Of course, nothing is proveable, however, there is more than 1 written occurance of people from foreign lands arriving in Japan by ship and teaching fighting methods. It's reported that thousands of years ago a man from Babylon once arrived in Japan and was made a very high ranking official, and taught many secrets including martial arts and strategy. Of course it can't be proven but I think that if you follow the trail of explorers through history it's very likely that many martial arts migrated from Greece, through India into Mongolia, China and Korea.

SimonM

01-19-2006, 04:47 PM

Some information I have read regarding Amatsu Tatara and Shinden Tatara leads me to believe that India played possibly the most important part in bringing martial arts to the far east. It would seem very likely that many martial art techniques did originate in Greece and Rome and eventually made their way eastward. Of course, nothing is proveable, however, there is more than 1 written occurance of people from foreign lands arriving in Japan by ship and teaching fighting methods. It's reported that thousands of years ago a man from Babylon once arrived in Japan and was made a very high ranking official, and taught many secrets including martial arts and strategy. Of course it can't be proven but I think that if you follow the trail of explorers through history it's very likely that many martial arts migrated from Greece, through India into Mongolia, China and Korea.

Must..... resist.... urge..... to..... flame..... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

paradoxbox

01-19-2006, 05:05 PM

Where do you get off flaming me? Have you ever looked at any amatsu tatara scrolls? I don't think so bucko, I gave a specific example of a specific martial art which you are not included in. You've never heard of it and you will never know much about it, so who are you or any other people in here to talk about martial arts which frankly you know nothing about.

This thread has a bunch of Chinese martial artists talking about a bunch of Japanese stuff they really have never looked at in depth. Seems a lot of people are just going to wikipedia and then copy-pasting crap straight into this thread.

SimonM as for your little smug post, if you want to flame me I'd suggest you first contact the Kuki family and maybe visit their website to do a little research. I'll even give you the link.

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html

Why is it for some reason people refuse to believe that some martial arts may have traveled the entire way from Greece to Japan or China, but they'll conveniently overlook the fact that buddhism traveled from India to Japan? Is it not possible that the same people who brought buddhism also brought martial arts? Hello? Is it not also possible that people from other areas of the world also travelled to Japan, and maybe, just maybe, also had knowledge about strategy, martial arts, fortune telling and medicine (yes, this was hugely important 2000 years ago)?

Considering Alexander's escapade into India, it seems extremely likely that some Greeks and other people of mediterranean descent eventually settled in or near India, and the knowledge they brought with them spread to the east. Don't be so closed minded, look at a map some day and chart the path Alexander took and a likely path any travellers or traders would take. Amazingly enough the trip ends in China. Gee ****.

Green Cloud

01-19-2006, 07:31 PM

Paradoxbox, Not sure if I wwas talking to you but since this is a virtual gang bang with eveyone jumping in. I agree with you I saw the Japanese Anime movie the Ninja scroll.

Knifefighter

01-19-2006, 07:59 PM

Are you retarted???
Because your so stupid.

Kind of ironic with that type of grammar you are questioning someone else's mental abilities. Maybe YOU'RE the one who is RETARDED and stupid?

Knifefighter

01-19-2006, 08:15 PM

Thanks Knifefighter,
Do you feel a vulnerablility on the sides of the neck, or trapezius (sp) when shooting in, to say a forearm attack or downward crashing strikes, perhaps combined with a sprawl....?
No, downward strikes are almost never a deciding factor in whether on not a takedown is successful and do very little damage. A good sprawl with knees to the head is a much better approach for the defender.

I think as a striker it has to be an either or option, move laterally or evade, or go in for a solid knee up or spine/neck down attack.
No, it has to be both back/lateral and knees. Going in will almost always lead to the takedown, unless you have a grappling background. The spine/neck down attack almost never works.

It appears that they open their lower abdomen and legs to attack (teep or uppercut) when they go high, before the drop and shoot, ever get caught there, or is it just too small a window?
The solar plexus is open to knees if the grappler doesn't defend properly. Uppercuts can sometimes land, also.

hskwarrior

01-19-2006, 08:24 PM

Knife fighter,

Don't turn your attack on me, but why are you insulting the man and his grammar?

I don't know much about him, but i get the feeling by his last name that he may speak more the just english. and that could affect someone's grammar.

BUT, this is the wrong place for the criticism of someone's grammar. this is no academic setting. people aren't submitting thesis'seseeseessss and such. so i don't see the need to attack the man personally. if you don't agree with him then stay on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it.

this is a pretty loose place with a good amount of freedom of speech, unlike some of the other forums where they attack you because you use all lower case letters.
to me, how petty can you get when you have nothing else to insult? The moment i saw them attack me because of that, i decided to jump ship and come running back here.

Go ahead and argue with Green Cloud, he's a big boy and can take it. but leave the personal insults out. please.

and as i've asked "Don't turn your attack towards me, there's no problem here."

HSK

greensage22

01-19-2006, 08:27 PM

I like how tuna fish is tring to say martial arts/kung fu is useless. when mma
have to come from somewhere. Oh' and tuna most people cross train but choose to perfect a single style to make it perfect. also you sound like a 10 year old, tring to pick fights with people who know your wrong which is why they ignore you.
PS: your going to be very lonely under the bridge:D

couch

01-19-2006, 08:58 PM

He started a conversation (although it was more a dig towards all of us practicioners) and then left us to duke it out.

In his first few posts, he stated that the worst thing for Traditional Kung-Fu was the MMA competitions. I tend to disagree. I think it was one of the best things for Traditional Kung-Fu. I think it was a great thing to see, because it's what the great Bruce Lee was professing to all along: crosstrain and real-time action.

Unforunately, even in my past martial arts schools that I have been through, many techniques were used on a dead opponent, unlike the resisting opponents that are in the ring trying to mash you.

Although there may be rules in these MMA comps, I still think that they are a great testing ground for someone's skills. Even though I don't plan to compete at this time in my life...it has opened up doors for me. I've been able to get together with other practicioners of other arts and styles, including groundfighting and get totally manhandled. The idea of crosstraining has opened the minds of many people, including myself.

Now, many people out there are still doing drills with their style vs. their style and with non-resisting opponents. I personally don't think this is good, but to each their own.

So, Bruce Lee and MMA aren't so new. They just come around again and again to remind us of what really works and what doesn't: simplicity. Style vs. Style was a great (and still is at times) marketing tool and that's it. Just like Religion vs. Religion creates tension, conflict and bickering...so does this Style vs. Style BS.

Martial arts are all-encompasing. Too bad Tuna Fish left. Maybe he'll come back and we can have a civilized conversation.

All the best,
Kenton

splinter

01-19-2006, 09:08 PM

Ok, so let's see,

The thread was started by a really bad troll, who was eventually banned because he was a complete moron. It sucks, but sometimes this happens.

Since the the conversation has degraded in a way that I didn't know was possible,

I'd like to take a quick look at some of the arguments that have been made:

1. "Kung Fu Sucks. Only MMA works." (Originally posted by Tuna Fish)

2. "I train in ultra deadly techniques, like poking people in the eyes, and twisting their nuts. So MMA is unnecessary."
And the usual counter arguments... "If you've never done it before, you don't know if it works.", "People with high pain thresholds...", "How can you poke me in the eye if you can't even punch me in the face" etc.

3. "My style aims to end the fight as quickly as possible." (ok, what f'n art doesn't? I don't think I've ever heard someone say "I want to drag this fight out for as long as possible")

4. "Don't take this the wrong way, but you sound like a wuss." (this was just funny)

5. "I can see your point about grappling training being necessary, but because I don't want concede that chinese martial arts aren't perfect, I'm going to make the argument that Juuutsu is chinese, and all kung fu is MMA."

6. "The first time anyone ever wrestled was at the olympics, therefore jujutsu was greek before it was chinese."

7. Somehow, "Grappling training is a good idea" has been interpreted as "Kung fu sucks". I'm not sure how this works.

8. Most grapplers are stupid. (WTF? Seriously.)

9. Lots of claims about history, some with stated sources, many without. Come on now. If you don't have a verifiable source that you can share with people, you shouldn't be making these arguments, and you shouldn't be stating them as FACT.

10. Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame.

1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 are on a conference call discussing what they need to do to get their threads back.

paradoxbox

01-19-2006, 09:36 PM

Paradoxbox, Not sure if I wwas talking to you but since this is a virtual gang bang with eveyone jumping in. I agree with you I saw the Japanese Anime movie the Ninja scroll.

No clue what you're talking about. Anyway the Kuki family is one of the older families of Japan with written records going back to the 1330's. Currently the Kuki family maintains a significant number of shinto shrines which happen to be closely connected (philosophically) to the kukishin martial arts.

Here is some info relating to amatsu tatara and its connection with areas far beyond the borders of Japan. As I said before nothing is proveable but the fact that this document exists (and was written hundreds of years ago) indicates something similar probably occured, even if it's different from the version of events written here.

----

Amatsu means Heaven or Nature. Tatara means the highest secret teaching system of Martial Arts and original Shintoism spirit. The Amatsu Tatara Hibumi (secret scrolls) are special scrolls about all Martial Arts, Spiritualism and Humanism. These were written about 700 BC by the King of Mima as the history of Japan.

Tatara Isuzu Hime-no-Mikoto was given these scrolls. She then married the first emperor Jinmu and gave these scrolls to the Ohtomo, Nakatomi and Mononobe families (families loyal to the Emperor). In about 700 BC (or 500 BC, or 600 BC), The King Mima drifted from the ancient Babylonia Caldia Kingdom to Japan with three attendants and they lived on Miwayama mountain (Nara Area). He formed a good friendship with the chieftain of Japan Amaterasu Ohmikami and made great efforts in controlling Japan. This is why he was made a Kunitsu Omi Muraji (Minister). King Mima brought the special Kubikazari (necklace) which was made of 72 Magatama (jewels). The Kubikazari was not only for just fashion which was the symbol of a King. It had very important meaning and was used for fortunetelling as well. King Mima presented it to Amaterasu.

Hiboko-no-Mikoto followed King Mima to Japan. Hiboko was a great Shaman and brought Tokusano Kandakara (ten kinds of Gods treasures) of Shikin. Shikin means Rei-jutsu (spiritual techniques by truth consciousness.).

In 500 BC or 550 BC, several hundred Buddhist Vader people of the Malay race attacked Japan and fought the emperors army of Miwayama. The emperor's army fought and defeated them. From the battle the Japanese emperor's army designed weapons, created how to use them, and also how to win (strategies). From that time until about 10 AD a special scroll was written; the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi-no-Ikkan (original main secret scroll of the Amatsu Tatara) which includes all special techniques, philosophies, Tenmon (heavens things), Chimon (earth things) and others.

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I'm unsure of what 'Caldia' refers to and I don't have access to who could have been a king or royalty in Babylon at that period of time. From what I understand this story exists not only in the amatsu tatara scrolls but also in the Kuki Bunsho Kaisetsu, a secret book for priests.

Again, unverifiable but given the fact that many explorers and conquerers wanted to get to China, it seems probable that a great deal of martial knowledge was passed from west to east. That's not to say knowledge did not already exist in the far east, but a melting pot of knowledge was created.

couch

01-20-2006, 12:04 AM

That one video that Tuna Fish posted about with that 15 year veteran of Kung Fu is this gentleman:
http://www.jasondelucia.com/jason_delucias_homepage.htm

If you look at his background, you will see that after the sparring match with Royce Gracie, he took to high road and has since been in the MMA circuit (fighting people such as Royce again and Bas Rutten.) He researched where this ground-fighting came from and learned to make his 5 Animal Kung-Fu work in different situations.

Good on 'em.

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

Green Cloud

01-20-2006, 12:51 AM

Mat didn't say anythinjg of the sort!
I didn't say that at all. Read my post before YOU start talking about research. My arse is your intellectual equal.
Apart from which I did kungfu for about ten years before I started MMA... are you saying my intellect dropped when I started MMA? In which case it may be near yours now.

Wing chun kung fu, nine years. Most days. MMA two years, once/twice a week if I'm lucky. I don't know where morons with BLIND prejudice incapable of holding civil discussion are doing on this forum.

The last time a (mantis) fighter reached for my nuts, I elbowed him down his face with a chum jarn (a kung fu technique) and swept him with a lap sao (a kung fu tech) and a stamping kick (a kungfu tech). And anyway, do you have an argument?

Hey mat I figured you would be posting a thread not