Is Northern & Southern Praying Mantis Linked?

[AdrianChanWyles]

It is interesting to see the dichotomy that exists between Northern Praying Mantis - and Southern Praying Mantis. The premise being that the two styles, although emphasising the copying of the insect by the same name, developed independently of one another. Wang Lang is said to have invented the northern version toward the end of the Ming Dynasty (1600), and that the Chinese Hakka ethnicity developed the southern version during the 19th century - as a response to oppression experienced at that time.

However, this might be far too simplistic, obscuring some very important facts in the process.

The Hakka (or 'Guest People'), although living in southern China today, actually originated toward the north of China (some Hakka experts maintain that they might even be of non-Han -i.e. 'non-Chinese' ethnic origin), and migrated down through central China toward the south, over a thousand year time span, in a series of migrations triggered (it is thought), by natural disasters, war and famine. The last great migration into Guangdong province was toward the end of the Ming Dynasty (1600 onward), in response to the Manchurian (i.e. 'Jurchen') invasion, that eventually conquered China - forming the Qing Dynsty (1644-1911).

Could it be that migrating Hakka from north and central China, migrated southward, bringing with them a form of Northern Mantis? Perhaps Wang Lang, traditionally associated with the creation of 'Tang Lang' (i.e.'praying Mantis'), actually practiced a style that was much older and preserved within a family lineage - perhaps his own. And if we specualte further - it is well known that there are some Hakka in the south who carry the family name 'Wong' (i.e. 'Wang'), who can even today, trace their family history to an area of Henan.

If migrating Hakkas brought Northern Praying Mantis southward - then why did it change? The answer is simple - the social, economical and political situation in south China brought much suffering to the Hakka people. They were considered an unwanted minority amongst the indigenous peoples. This friction eventually led to all-out warfare (Hakka-Punti Clan Wars 1840-1867), and the Taiping Rebellion (1854-1864). The Hakka, hopelessly outnumbered and compressed into an ever shrinking geographical area to live, had to adapt their culture very quickly to the new situation.

People were being killed at an alarming rate - meaning that Hakka men and Women did not have the time to dedicate themselves to lifelong studies of the martial arts (as had once been the case in north China). Also, many traditional arts had a definite 'external' and a definite 'internal' element or phase to the training. This could take year to practice - and many of the movements were elongated and expansive. In the south of China during the 19th century, the Hakkas had neither leisure time or the necessary space for the elongated practice of the northern styles. The response to this was to 'compact'the 'external' and 'internal' aspects of northern training, into just one training regime - shortening the stances, but maintaining the internal curves of the body (i.e. 'Dragon Backing'), allowing for stabilty at medium to close range. And unlike today, the Hakkas of old fought in extended clan groups - various clans would come together and form 'armies' of thousands of men and women. The emphasis on 'single combat' today, is a modern development - designed to replace or replicate the dangers and vigours of the battlefield.

The southern development of Praying Mantis simply reflects the needs of migrating Hakka in the 19th century - they would always be out-numbered and fighting from the back-foot. This simple strategic and tactical observation is seen clearly in the southern version. The Hakka ancestors of northern origin, existing thousands of years ago in north China, and probably on horse-back, always had the advntage of surprise and speed. Being nomadic, they did not have villages or towns that could be easily identitified and attacked. However, as the Hakka migrated southward, they lost their nomadic ways - gave up their horses and developed their martial arts for fighting on foot. Many martial arts of north China may well have had their origin in this way. As those arts were taken southward, they were changed to represent the new situation. What must be realised, is that Praying Mantis is not the only surviving Hakka style of martial art. Hakkas, by nature, are very secretative and much is deliberately kept hidden.

[Three Harmonies]

I cannot speak with any authority on the historical aspects of the arts (ask Robert Hui, as I think he has written on this specific subject), but I have trained NM for about 7 years now, and have trained with a local SM player as well as touched hands with Manuel Rodriquez Laoshi, a high level SM player. I can honestly say there is little similarity!
SM is more akin to Wing Chun, White Crane, and Bak Mei.

Cheers
Jake :)

[AdrianChanWyles]

I would agree that southern praying mantis is very different in structure to northern praying mantis - as water is different to ice - but if a northern style penetrates deep into another area, with differing ideas and concepts (i.e. south China), then that style could well take on the characteristics of the local styles. At either end of the scale, we could be seeing an art in differing and dramatic stages in evolution. I shall look up Robert Hui - thank you for that - very interesting!

[AdrianChanWyles]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...hp/t-5805.html

This is just one story about the possible origins of southern mantis;

'I have a question for anybody out there who knows the answer. I heard that that Southern Mantis came about when a disciple of a Northern Mantis system got into a fight and killed someone related to a high ranking official in the government. The disciple was then wanted for murder and had to flee to the South. The disciple then changed his system around and then called it Southern Mantis. When he was later questioned, he denied he was the killer saying he knew nothing of Northern Mantis he was someone else who taught Southern Mantis. The story goes something like that. Is there any truth to this?.'

The thread goes on to say that Lung Ying and Bak Mei are both Hakka styles - but that 'structurally', the northern and southern mantis are related. This is a contextual problem. Of course, there is no reason why either style should be related - other than the fact that both styles are supposedly based upon the obervation of a Mantis. I also note in English translation - the peculiar spelling of the 'Preying', and 'Praying' - which would suggest a differing Chinese character for each. But there are many styles that have evolved, one from the other - with the latter version bearing little or no resemblance to the original;

1) Fujian White Crane - Goju Ryu Karate Do
2) Shaolin Gongfu - Nippon Sorinji Kempo
3) Bagua - Japanese Aikido.
4) Chinese straight sword - Japanese curved sword.
5) Variants of Longfist Gonfu - Muay Thai. (The Thais originated in Yunnan).

There are many more - so we may conclude that just because a system does share the 'same' structural dynamics - that does not necessarily mean that it is not related to some older style. And throughout Chinese histories - styles have invariably travelled north to south. And there is the rather t***** issue of how styles were created - as illustrated by the above quote. On the Shaolin Gong Fu Institute web page - it says that ALL Hakka arts developed in Guangxi and are called 'Juk Lum'. Whilst researching for a thesis a few years back, I remember a story that says that a Chu family member worked in the kitchen of the Fujian Shaolin temple, and secretly copied the monks training regimes, etc. Another tells of two sisters named Chu being taught a system by a Shaolin nun, etc. The stories go on and on. The one that you believe - will be the right one for you - and who is to say that there might not be a glimmer of truth in all of it somewhere?

The point is this - the origins of southern praying mantis are obscure and treat Hakka history totally out of context - as if there has been no hstory. There is a oil painting of an artist's impression of one of the Taiping battles with Qing troops - the artist was an eye witness - the Hakka warriors were stripped to their waists, they wore head-bands and carried spears in rows three ranks deep. The stances were long and deep. And it is said that in the Hakka-Punti clan wars - the Hakka women would race the men toward the enemy to see who could kill one first. The 19th century was a time of great upheavel - and the convenient 'soundbites' of martial history, when viewed in the light of the actual events that happened - appear totally out of place and lacking in context. Further more, the implications are stark for Hakkologists - if there were no Hakka martial arts prior to the 19th century - then it would imply that there was never any great northern origin or culture. And yet the linguistic structure of the Hakka language is clearly northern in origin - and Patricia Lim - a Cambridge graduate originally from Hong Kong - Herself a Hakka - is of the view that the original Hakka language formed the basis for Guan Yu - or old Manderin. And what other evidence do we have for northern origination?

1) Clearly observable migration routes southward over two thousand years.
2) A Language of Northern origin.
3) A unique cuisine.
4) The myth and legends passed on in families by the elders.
5) Clan houses in the New territories that bear the name of an area in Henan - the place migrated from.
6) Clan villages with the clan name stone - bearing prominent clan members and areas of origination - all northward.
7) The refusal to bound Hakka women's feet - unlike the Han tradition.
8) The well known fighting spirit and thirst for education.
9) The differing physical characteristics.


The Hakkas are often described by non-Hakka as 'warlike' and troublesome - hardly a description befitting a people who did not possess effective martial arts prior to the southern migrations - or indeed the catastrophic 19th century!

The fact that the Hakkas eventually lost the 19th century wars, led to a time of the denial of Hakka culture - and many Hakka bringing their children up to act, speak and think that they were Cantonese. This has served to obscure much history and tradition, and what has survived - may not be the full story - or indeed , be in historical context.

The time it takes to 'penetrate' the deepest essence of an art - is infact the time it takes to penetrate the deepest essence of our minds. Regardless of physical structure of the art learnt - in the end, the physical structure is transcended and transformed by insight. In times of existential war - NO ONE - has the leisure time to pursue a gentlemanly path - and considering the millions of people who died in the 19th century - not to excellerate learning in a time of utmost need for survival, would be suicidal. This is why any recent martial history that DOES NOT contain an influence or a mention of the horrendous death and destruction that befell the Hakka not even 200 years ago - to my mind, smirks of 'denial', and post defeat propaganda that depicted Hakka culture as somehow 'inferior'. It simply does not make any sense not to have a mention of a happening that nearly toppled the Qing Dynasty! And when stood in their huge armies - the Hakka did not advance in high stances, shuffling to maintain technique - on the contrary - they charged across open ground, to close with the enemy as quickly as possible. Whatever the 'truth' of the matter as to the origins of northern and southern praying mantis - one thing is sure - we will believe whatever version of the truth best suits our current requirements. And we may also say - that it is only in times of relative peace, that martial arts can be learnt in a leisurely manner - because the teachers and students are not getting killed are an alarming rate. One teacher dying - effectively removes that knowledge for all time.

[mantis108]

Greetings AdrianChanWyles,

I am not sure how to approach your question. It would seem from the information put forth that you are interested in the recognition of Hakka people's contribution to Chinese martial arts in general more so than a real link between the mantis styles.

I would like to share some thoughts with you and please note that I put my usual caveats with these thoughts.

1) There isn't any proof of a link between the Northern and Southern Mantis. But there are "circumstancial" evidences IMHO suggest that the Greater Meihwa Line of Northern Mantis (Tanglang for short) might have influences or even was a "southern methodolgy northern adaptation" kind of martial art. This does not necessarily apply to Seven Stars line. The method was Fanziquan based.

2) The prototypical Tanglang could have been based on Fanziquan which could also be categorized as Duan Da (short strikes). It also seem to have influences from Tongbi which could also categorized as Chang Quan (long fist). In essence, Tanglang could be categorically classified as Chang Quan Duan Da.

3) Tanglang might have been a distant relative of Yong Chun He Fa (prototypical White Crane) and Longxing (southern Dragon style). Yong Chun He Fa is IMHO the missing link that connects the dots.

4) I have to be very careful about this sensitive point but I will share this anyway and hope there's no horrible re. I believe that Southern Mantis (Nan Tonglong) could have been originated in Jiangxi province (not Guangxi) where Hakka settlements can be found also. There is a sect of Daoism in Jiangxi province that practice something that is called "shen gong" which involve worships and make offering to a diety on an alter in the name of Wind Fire Hall. This practice is found in most Hakka style MA including Nan Tonglong as well as some Fujian White Crane. There are again circumstancial evidences that Fujian Baihe (White Crane) was spearded into the Jiangxi province during Qing dynasty (1644 - 1911 CE). It would seem logical that some form of a relationship between Nan Tonglong and Fujian Baihe existed. Personally, the fact that a variation of Sanjan (3 battles) exists in various line of Nan Tonglong is quite curious.

5) Lung Ying and Bak Mei both have a variation of the Sanjan (ie Sup Luk Dong and Jik Bo) by way of Abbot Gee Sin's student - Wong Kwan AKA Hoi Fung Si. BTW Gee Sin was also the progenitor of Yong Chun (also became Wing Chun) yet his teaching also known to became the many variations of Hung Gar.

Just some thoughts to share for now.

Regards

Robert Hui (Mantis108)

[Lu Bu]

Unfortunately, anyone who would really know the answer is about 100+ years dead. It's unlikely, without some kind of historical documentation, that anyone wil be able to easily prove that they are truly linked. It's not necessarily impossible, but it is going to be very difficult. :(

[MantisCool]

According to the present disciple of Chu Jia Praying mantis in Hong Kong in his TV interview recently he said that Wang Lang hide at the Chu Jia when pursued by the Government.

In appreciation of that he passed his Tang Lang Quan to the Chu brothers and this is how the Chu Jia tang lang came into existence.

[TenTigers]

Most SPM people say Chu Ga was from the meaning of Chu to be descendants of the Royal Court, who fled South during the Manchu invasion. SPM has startling similarities to Fukien White Crane, and some say that is was simoly called Southern Mantis to hide its "Chu-Ga" origins. Maybe, maybe not. I definately see the similarities to Bak Hok, but when i see my teacher move, ****ed if he don't look like a freakin insect!-certainly not like any bird I've ever seen!:):cool:

[AdrianChanWyles]

Thank you to everyone who has written here - you knowledge is very much appreciated. So much of martial history lies in the oral tradition, and this tradition is passed-on from teacher to student. Part of my research derives from our family style - juxtaposed and referenced with what can be found in the world of objective fact - if such a thing exits!

We have a Longfist based form - half of which is northern Tong Long - preserved and taught in a Sai Kung Hakka Village (Hong Kong). The village is near empty today - but in its hayday, virtually all clan members practiced Gongfu. The clan leader and his immediate family - practiced 'Old Hakka Kuen' (Lao Kejia Quan), a northern, unaltered art. Whilst other families practiced what was considered to be the modified Hakka Kuen of Southern Tong Long (Xin Kejia Quan), Both were/are very effective, but one was far older. The legends, stories and clan book of the Chan family spoke of ancestors riding horses into battle, and that the older style was a development from Steppe Nomads. Of course, this is an oral legend. But there were masters who knew both styles, and could demonstrate where the older, longer movements had been altered into the shorter movements of the later Hakka Kuen. However, it was also known that the new version DID NOT originate with the Chan clan - and was often referred to as 'ChuGar'. Oldly, and rather paradoxically, there were no Chu's in this village - so presumably the style had been 'imported'. Status in Hakka culture is very important, so perhaps the clan leader and his family wanted to maintain a 'Royal' style. Up until fairly recently, no one outside of the direct family was taught, not even other Chan's - but it was decided that to stop the style dying out - others had to be taught it. In the Hakka dialect, our style is called Sin Do - Godly or Spiritual Way. Ch'an Dao means Mind Way - but amounts to the samething.

Hakka history has become obscured for many people - but not on this forum!

Thanks

[mantis108]

Interesting info. Thanks. Personally, Hakka people should be a important anthropological study.

I am kind of curious because if memory serves Chan, Wu and Yuan are three main branches of one ancient family from (Wing Chuen area) I believe. They also pay respect to their ancestrial head of family Shun (one of the 5 prehistoric Emperors), who is often associated with harnessing the power of elephant to cultivate the land. The elephant could be symbolic of his Regal power of course but it's rather interesting. So you are a Chan right?

Anyway, does your Hakka Kung Fu also pay respects to the Wind Fire Hall? Is there a plague or something of the Wind Fire Hall or the deity "Nine Heavens Wind Fire Hall Three Fields General Commanding Field Marshal"? Is there Unicorn dance? If so which type of Unicorn you would use?

The roots of Kung Fu (not the equivalent of Wushu) IMHO is tracable. It is a culture as well as a tradition, however evolved and branched out, that it is still connected and beat with one single heartbeat. Within the five lakes and the four oceans, we are all brothers. That my friend is Kung Fu.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[AdrianChanWyles]

Hi Robert!

Thank you so much for your knowledge - it is very much appreciated. I am absolutely fascinated by the Shun Emperor. I, and a small but growing number of Hakka friends, meet to train privately, and discuss the latest research we have carried-out. We tend to develop the ideas of Mr Lee M Lock, and Professor Clyde Kiang. On the martial traditional front - the Unicorn is used at New Year. The clan leader (Juk Jeurng) did not carry it out - other branches were responsible for its practice and preservation. The leader's house (small, about the size of a Western garage), was situated next door to the name temple (miao). The village was/is on a mountain side - with the latest houses at the top of the hill. The original settlements were at the base of the hill, next to the sea shore, as boats were the usual way to travel around the area. Much later, the British built roads to the villages, etc. The men of the village, along with the Hakka men of other clans in the area, fought the Japanese during WWII. There is a monument to their bravery on the central main road running through the New Territories.

As far as I know, the Chen name (Chan, Chin, Tan and Van) descends from the State of Chen, during the Zhou Dynasty. The clan name of the Chen people was Gui. When the Chu's invaded and destroyed the State of Chen, the Gui changed their clan name to Chen, out of respect of their former state.

Thanks

[AdrianChanWyles]

Another interesting point, following on from Robert's interesting questions - is the use of Hakka magic in ritual and practice. Basically, Mo Sut refers to magic spells that give strength and protection, whilst Mo Gwai refers to the speaking of one's ancestors through the Mo Sut Yan, or Shaman (literally 'Magic Spell Person') of the village. The Shaman was also usually the Yisang, or doctor. Before the days of Traditional Chinese Medicine as it is practiced today, magic and medicine went hand in hand. The qi, or heavenly power of a Hakka style, flows directly from the family shrine (Dan), and that energy flow is dependent upon the right practice of Confucian ritual. The right practice allows the qi of 'respect' to permeate the family and the clan, whilst a neglected or wrong practice either meant little or no qi. Without qi, a family or clan can not be healthy and prosperous, nor can its warriors be expected to fight effectively. Paying respect to the various clan halls would come under the remit of proper ritual. And this proper ritual has its basis in Fong Soy (Feng Shui), everything postioned as it should be, in the universe. Hakka mgic is the means to make and ensure the qi flows. I also look as see if the various Hakka styles still know about the magic, as hen I was young, it was an inseparable part of practice.

[Oso]

as well as touched hands with Manuel Rodriquez Laoshi, a high level SM player.

huh...I think this is the same guy I did a grueling 2 day seminar with back in like 98.

have we talked about him before?

a big guy, right?

[AdrianChanWyles]

Hi Robert!

Quote;
'I am not sure how to approach your question. It would seem from the information put forth that you are interested in the recognition of Hakka people's contribution to Chinese martial arts in general more so than a real link between the mantis styles.'

Your post contained such interesting information, that I forgot how it began! The answer is not as simple as it may seem. On the one side, I do have an academic Hakka based agenda - on the other hand - I have talked to people who have explained to me how Tanglang was modified to Tonglong. Now, we have to deal with narratives as they currently stand, and the prevailing narrative is that they are not linked. My ancestry came from a village where BOTH were practiced. Bear in mind that I have also come across a narrative that says that Hakka martial arts did not exist much beyond the 19th century! Of course they did, but Hakka history of the last two hundred years has been very bloody. The Hakka-Punti Clan Wars (approx: 1840-1867) - fought in and around the Guangdong area, is said to have led to the death of 20 million people! The minority Hakka lost the war, despite brave resistance - and with the loss went much of their culture, as the winners, the Cantonese and their Qing supporters ethnically cleansed large areas Guangdong - forcing the surviving Hakkas to live in small, poor areas. As a result of this, many fled China into southeast Asia and beyond. Hakka culture was repressed and Hakka children were forced to learn Cantonese and behave in a Cantonese fashion. This really was a trauma in Hakka culture. Isolated pockets of Hakkaness throughout the world, (notably in British controlled Hong Kong), carried on Hakka culture and martial arts. Many of the so called southern tong long styles today, referred to as hakka kuen date to just after the clan wars. As if the Hakka did not have their martial arts before this date! I think that a false separation has occured between northern and southern praying mantis - giving the wrong impression of two unrelated arts. For an art to be related, it does not mean that they have to be the same in physical structure. But I am open to correction on this matter.

[mickey]

Greetings everyone,

Adrian,

While you appear to be looking for that missing link between Northern and Southern Mantis, it appears to me that the missing link is you.


From reading the latest Kung Fu magazine that featured an article on Hakka martial arts, it made me think that the Hakka contribution to Chinese martial arts may be greater than we realize. Were they responsible for Shaolin being such a repository of knowledge of various styles? That article got me thinking about a lot of things.

I hope you share more about your heritage and martial traditions.

Welcome to the Forum.


mickey

[AdrianChanWyles]

Greetings everyone,

Adrian,

While you appear to be looking for that missing link between Northern and Southern Mantis, it appears to me that the missing link is you.


From reading the latest Kung Fu magazine that featured an article on Hakka martial arts, it made me think that the Hakka contribution to Chinese martial arts may be greater than we realize. Were they responsible for Shaolin being such a repository of knowledge of various styles? That article got me thinking about a lot of things.

I hope you share more about your heritage and martial traditions.

Welcome to the Forum.


mickey

Mike, thank you for your kind words. I think Hakka culture ticks away qietly in the background of things generally 'Chinese'. The mainland government of China, does not alow the Hakka distinctive ethnic status, as it does at least 56 other ethnic groups in China. China, and by inference, Chinese culture, is a mixture of many ethnicities. The doctrine of the current government is to play down the various ethnic roles - and advocate a Han bias. Of course, this requires a certain rewriting of history, making the theories fit the facts.

The Shaolin Temple in Henan, was not of course the only Ch'an Buddhist Temple in China, and certainly not the only Temple that allowed the practice of Gongfu as a spiritual practice. It has however, become the most famous in Chinese literature and film, and, according to legend, is the place where Bodhidharma finally settled with his message of Ch'an Buddhism. It must be remembered that Buddhism existed in China before this point, as did martial arts practice for spiritual purposes. For Bodhidharma to be unique, it is probably to do with the Indian school of Ekayana (One School) that he brought to China - where it became known as Ch'an (from the Sanskrit Dhyana - meaning to 'look into one's mind'). The Chinese Daoists and Confucians already practiced the various martial arts for qi cultivation. Bodhidharma is said to have been a south Indian Hindu who converted to Buddhism. He was of the Ksatriya, or 'Warrior' class - and they still practice Indian martial arts today, as part of their religious practice. The movements are based upon the Dance of Shiva. He would have been at home in China - with an emphasis on the martial and the spiritual being 'one'.

The Hakka contribution to Chinese martial development - occured during, before and after Bodhidharma came to China. Of course, Shaolin Gongfu - in its various and distinctive genre, is said to have been developed by the Ch'an Buddhist Clergy of Shaolin Ch'an Temple, Henan. This idea is further extrapolated to the sister Temple of Shaolin, situated in Fujian Province. Apparently, the latter was directly related to the former, implying that a member of the Ch'an Clergy from Henan Shaolin, travelled southward to set-up what amounts to an extension of the Henan Temple, in Fujian. These two Ch'an Temples are said to be the root of what is called 'Shaolin'. Other Ch'an Tmples practiced and developed Gongfu - but they did not become famous in the Shaolin sense. In a Buddhist text, I came across a mention of a Ch'an Master named Lee, who not only taught Ch'an Buddhism in Tibet, but was also a reknowned martial artist and doctor.

So the paradox that I see is this; Northern Longfist is not necessarily Shoalin Longfist - and yet Ch'an monks from various Ch'an Temples throughout China, would have practiced either style, and possibly both. And many Ch'an monks were not necessarily Shaolin Ch'an monks. On top of this, some of those monks (Shaolin or not), were of the Hakka ethnicity. Infact, it is said that some monks actually took their family styles into the Ch'an Temple - where they were taught to all and further developed, finally emerging as distinctive Buddhist or Shaolin styles. Another level involves men who were once monks, who then returned to lay society, and taught their monastic arts to their descendents.

The Hakka link to Ch'an, or at least the area where Ch'an and Hakka ancestry might well have over-laped, is during the Northern Dynasties of China - where non-Han peoples invaded north China and brought their own distinctive culture - which included the mass importation of Buddhism. It is interesting to note, that during this time, the original Shaolin Temple was established in Henan.

[mickey]

Hi,

It is funny that you should mention a "Lee." That article had me thinking about Bruce Lee and whether there was a Hakka influence.

Respectfully, I do not want to take your thread on a tangent. I think there would be more than a few Mantis practitioners who would be interested in what you have to share when it comes to the Northern and Southern Mantis connection.

mickey

[AdrianChanWyles]

Hi,

It is funny that you should mention a "Lee." That article had me thinking about Bruce Lee and whether there was a Hakka influence.

Respectfully, I do not want to take your thread on a tangent. I think there would be more than a few Mantis practitioners who would be interested in what you have to share when it comes to the Northern and Southern Mantis connection.

mickey

Well - 'Lee', or 'Li', usually written as a 'Pear' (but originating from the Chinese ideogram for 'Justice'), is one of the oldest, recorded names in Chinese history. Apparently, a Lee ancestor offered a pear fruit to an emprorer that was hidng-out, without realising He was an emperor of course! Later, when peace had been established, the emperor bestowed the 'Pear' ideogram upon the family - by imperial decree. There is an added complication with the name however, Chinese people of Jewish descent, also have the name 'Lee', deriving from the Hebrew 'Levi', meaning 'scribe'. Lee's and Li's can be;

1) Hakka
2) Non-Hakka
3) Of Jewish origin.

Most descendents of Jewish people today, other than their names, and perhaps one or two distinctive physical characteristics - do not prctice Judaism - or have any real memory of their possibly Arab ancestry that entered Chine about, or just over a thousand years ago - during the Sung Dynasty. The Jewish names, like Muslim names, were often shortened or changed to seem more Chinese. Often, non-Chinese men, marry Chinese women, would take the woman's family name as their own.

As for Bruce Lee (Lee Jun Fan/Sil Lung), I know his father's village was called 'Tunde', and I think that it was somewhere near Guangzhou, in Guangdong province. Bruce only ever went there once or twice in his life. What is curious about Bruce Lee, according to Bruce Thomas' Book entitled 'Fighting Spirit - The Bruce Lee Story', is that at 21 years old, Bruce's father insisted that he (i.e. Bruce) be circumcised. Make of that what you will. I have pondered with the fact that Bruce Lee may have had Hakka ancestry. Lineages of the same name, do cross over every now and again. One clue might lie in the name given him at birth 'Sai Fung', or 'Little Pheonix', which has a distinctly Hakka fell about. But then Hakkas have been hding their identity for decades!

I have argued elsewhere - mostly in academic circles, that during the Hakka-Punti Clan Wars in Gunagdong province, the Hakka peoples were forced to live in very small, poor areas of land. People were crammed together and space was of a premium. The longer, rangier style of the north usually need substantial space to practice - in the situation the Hakka found themselves in, this was not possible int he south. However, as a state of war existed, martial practice had to occur nonetheless. Small space were used to train, and the movements of the northern forms were altered to suit this new terrain. Also, and this is a crucial point to bear in mind, the Hakka were outnumbered and fighting in more or less static positions. Shortened movements that allowed for a more sophisticated infighting would have been greatly beneficial in the long run. As the war progressed, thousands were dying more or less weekly. This also meant that new warriors were required at a much faster rate. Training had to be excellerated as a consequence. Of course, this is the story passed down within Hakka legend - and I see no reason to doubt that it might be right for at least some lineages. As with all clan life, rank and hierarchy was/is very important. And a devision occured between those who practiced the old northen styles, and those who practiced the new adapted styles. Following the Hakka defeat in 1867 - against a combined army of Qing Imperial troops and Western artillery, much Hakka culture was lost and many overtly northern styles either died on the battlefield with their clansmen - or went into hiding, not to re-emerge for quite sometime.

From a Hakka perspective, the Hakka communities of Taiwan would be very interesting to observe, if such a thing was possible. They migrated there during the 17th century, and never experienced the Clan Wars, or indeed the Communist Revolution. Their ways have been preserved. From what I have seen, discussed and experienced, all Hakka arts are internal. One example of this is Dit Nyau (Iron Ox) which seems to have developed the Iron Vest (Dit Yee) element of the internal arts. Pray Mantis seems to have evolved around the concepts of evasion and precise, powerful and penetrating strikes. Fung Nang (or Pheonix Strike) arts have evolved form Say Dim (Death Hitting), often referred to as 'Dim Mak' pressure point hitting. The southern Mantis Claw, when it touches an opponent, should feel heavy, light and sticky - and at the highest levels, literally drain the qi out of the opponent at the point of contact. The 'Dragon Backing' found in virtually all Hakka styles is straight from the three great internals.

Thanks.

[David]

If NPM and SPM are related, how come SPM is related to white eyebrow, dragon sign and beggar style - all Hakka arts with no mantis mentioned in them at all and all very like SPM.

SPM is a specialised Hakka beggar's hand.

Seeing as beggar style goes back a very long way, I don't see how NPM can fit into the picture - unless it tried to copy ;).

Rgds,
David

[AdrianChanWyles]

Comparing martial arts styles from the Chinese Mainland, by merely observing the different or similar movements of the arms and legs, omits totally the socio/political/economic and historical/cultural development of the ethnic group(s) that invented, inherited or developed the styles. The northern people who migrated southward over a two thousand year period, (and became known as the 'Hakka', a southern, Cantonese term) invented many of the established Chinese style in the world today. Their migration history is well known and well recorded. It is also well known, that much of the southern development of Hakka Kuen, dates only from the 19th century, and only then AFTER a terrible war that that the Hakka fought (1840-1867 Hakka Punti Clan Wars). The Hakka on the island of Taiwan, have been there since the 1600's - alongtime before the development of 'modern' Hakka Kuen in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces - and yet they still practice the martial arts they took to Taiwan. And in the 17th and 18th centuries, the Hakka had a country of their own, (i.e. Lan Fan Republic, West Borneo), which they acquired BEFORE the development of southern Hakka Kuen, through extensive warfare with the local people. And of course, the Hakka King known as Coxinga, drove the Dutch from Taiwan in the 1600's, whilst fighting the invading Qing in south China.

My point is this; Hakka martial arts existed before Hakka Kuen evolved into what it became. The master - Wang Lang - of Northern Praying Mantis, carries a name that some Hakka have in Hong Kong, pronounced 'Wong' in local dialect. The Wang/Wong clan could have easily brought the Praying Mantis style southward, during which time it underwent its changes into the current form known today. Lung Ying is not southern in origin, it was brought southward by migrating Hakka. Bak Mei Has Hakka branches, but I am not sure as to whether it was originally a Hakka style. For many non-Chinese practitioners of Gongfu, particularly if their Sifu are ethnic Chinese - the style they are learning has a side to it that is more or less unobservable. Chinese clan villages were really strict up until fairly recently - particularly in Hong Kong. No one of another name could be accepted into the clan, and absolutely no one of another name would be taught the village martial art! Styles were not public, and what has become known today, is the tip of the ice-burg.

Hakka history as it is known in the West at the moment, is incomplete. Hakka martial arts are just as not very well known, misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented. Reseach is on-going, but I would encourage that when gongfu history is looked at, the history of the people who developed the art should be taken into consideration - or what is thought, will not be complete. A clue to how to proceed is to look at the family name, and research the history of that name.

Quote:
'SPM is a specialised Hakka beggar's hand.'

This is interesting - which Hakka family's art does this refer to? The most well known would be the Chu or the Chow. Of course, the Ho preserve Dit Nyau, or Iron Ox. None of these families refers to their arts as 'Beggar's Hand'. Are you saying that the Chu's and Chow's were taught Beggar's Hand, and then developed it into Praying Mantis? The families mentioned say that they developed their own arts, brought from the north. Thanks for your excellent post!

[mantis108]

First and foremost, the whole geographic concept of north and south of China is problematic for most people in the west.

China - the middle kingdom in ancient time refers to country (as in the region) of what is now known as Henan Province which is south shore of the Yellow River (Huang He). Technically in ancient time, all the territories beyond the north shore (Hebei) is consider barbarian country (bei di). Cantonese are considered as southern barbarian (Nan Man). Shandong is northeast end of the Yellow river.

We also have to remember that political power center swifts as the dynasties changed hands. The current capital of China (Beijing) was once the feudal land of the third son of Ming First Emperor, Zhu Yuanzhang, who actually had his capital settled at present day Nanjing. Technically speaking, most of the "Northern" styles found in the northern provinces where brought from either the west or south of China. There are very few indigenous northern martial arts in China except may be Shuai jiao; but on the other hand, you can find a lot of indigenous and ethnic martial arts originated in the west (ie Szechuan, Muslin territories, etc) or from the south (ie Miao, Hakka, etc..) Martial arts tends to move with the political power center in China because physical defense (and sometime offense) is one of the vital means of survival for any political power of the realm.

Jiangxi is adjacent to Fujian. It would seem that Jiangxi is where Liu Mang Jiao (Vagabond Pugilism) took root. It is possible that Liu Mang Quan (vagabond fist) from An Hui keep developing and adsorbed by the Hakka people and became what is known as Liu Mang Jiao. Jiao is a term mostly used by the Hakka people to name their Pugilistic styles. It is of note that vagabond and begger are not the same in Chinese social order. Vagabond is more or less bullies and violent sort of people kind of like the gangsters. In Taiwan, they are called Taibao. In HK, there are call fei jai. Beggers are just that lowest of the low class almost sub human. They are very different mentalities and humanity. Many people mistakeningly translated the term wrong due to the romance with the begger gang from the novels of Jin Rong. Bak Mei Cheung Lai Chuan first learned Liu Mang Jiao and he also learned Longxing/Lung Ying which in my mind is a derivetive of Yong Chun He Fa (Yongchun Crane Method). Having said that we should note that his Lung Ying is technically Lam's family fist, also Hakka family that highly likely links to Gi Seem Yong Chun through Gi Seem's Hakka student Wong Kun (aka Hoi Fung Si). Lam Yui Kwai's Lung Ying is different in the sense that he got to study with his Kung Fu uncles who were students of Monk Dai Yuk (also known as Yuk Shing). Anyway, my point is that the rumor of Cheung Lai Chuan might have SPM influence is not entirely out of the question given the fact that he had both Hakka and "jiangxi" connections. So...

Anyway, I won't get into the SPM subject as I have been deemed as blephmy (sp?) on their secrat history and lineages. I have no stomach for secrecy. So...

Mantis108

[AdrianChanWyles]

Thank you Mr Hui. We are certainly very lucky to have you share your knowledge with us, on this forum.

The Story of the Hakka
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/6896/

Above is a link that contains Mr Lee M Lock's extensive study of the Hakka people. I agree about the Western narrative - as juxtaposed with actual Chinese history. This is the dichotomy we have to constantly address, clarify and define. Ethnic Chinese also carry with them a cultural inheritance passed on within the family and community. Although Hakkas live in the south of China, Taiwan, Southeast Asia and elsewhere today, many share a belief in northern origins - and Hakka migrations are clearly defined in Chinese sources. There is no reason to suggest that this northern origin story is a myth. Even Hakka language is of northern origin. And infact, Hakkas often migrated with political shifts, as dynasties rose and fell, and moving away from areas of conflict. So I agree with your assessment in this regard.

Thank you.

[David]

Quote:
'SPM is a specialised Hakka beggar's hand.'

This is interesting - which Hakka family's art does this refer to? The most well known would be the Chu or the Chow. Of course, the Ho preserve Dit Nyau, or Iron Ox. None of these families refers to their arts as 'Beggar's Hand'. Are you saying that the Chu's and Chow's were taught Beggar's Hand, and then developed it into Praying Mantis? The families mentioned say that they developed their own arts, brought from the north. Thanks for your excellent post!My simplistic and detail-free understanding is that the Hakka had their distinctive flavour of MA 600+ years ago - long before any Hakka mantis style came about. Chow/Chu Gar mantis traces its Hakka inception to 300+ years ago when a Hakka style (perhaps the Beggar style) was modified in light of some inspiration gleaned from watching a mantis defend itself and then infused with high Shaolin skills.

So you see that my view is that mantis was added relatively late to a Hakka base-style, rather than always having been a mantis style and gradually diverging. You'd expect all Hakka styles (they are very similar, down to identical poetry) to be called mantis this or mantis that. Northern mantis has very different poetry, from what I've seen. Nothing at all to connect it with Southern.

If you're correct saying SPM comes directly from NPM, how can you explain the 300 years during which the Hakka styles didn't use the term "mantis" at all? In the end, I don't care whether SPM is from NPM or not. Knowing the correct answer would be nice, though.

Rgds,
David

[AdrianChanWyles]

In Si Kung, New Territories, there is a village that has a name stone in it. This means that the village is officially recognised as an extensiion fo a particular clan name. Now, having said that, there are many villages with name stones, all from differing clans. However, not all villages have name stones. Onething the name stone will have is the clan inscription/poem. That poem will be identical, for the same family name, on all the clan stones, wherever they may be. The Hakka ancestors did not originate in the south of China - in other words, they are not indigenous to that area. Over at least the last two thousand years, the Hakka migrated in a number of migrations. The term 'HakGar' literally translates as 'Guest Family' in the Cantonese dialect, and is something of a polite insult - implying that one is not welcome, or expected to stay very long in a certain area. However, the term 'Guest Family' did exist prior to the Hakka arrival in south China - about 1600AD. Records suggest that during the Jin Dyansty (4th centruy AD), those people who were displaced by war - and who could not go back to their home lands due to enemy occupation, were given the offical title of 'Ke Jia' in Manderin, and were allowed to stay in the new areas they had occupied, by the then emperor. In the local census they became officially the 'Guest People'.

The work of Mr Lee M Lock, (and others) suggests that the Hakka were/are a specific ethnic group that originated outside of China - possibly amongst the XiongNu, or 'Fierce People'. The XiongNu are thought to have been of Hunnish origin - in other words, a multiethnic, multiracial group. It is these people that founded the state of Qin in northwest China, and eventually conquered the whole of China in 221BC. The Qin emperor - Qin Shi Wongdi - stationed about hundred thousand troops in the northern Guangdong area - and these troops might well have been the origin of the Hakka in the Moiyan (Meixian) area, that are there today. They certainly were not from the local area - and their language attests to that, even today. Many of these original Hakka, were of nomadic stock and rode horses. Their gongfu had fighting from the horse, as well as fighting on foot and on the ground.

When the Hakka lost control of China, they became a minority within a country that they had helped to create. It is this minority that has migrated ever southward, ever since the collapse of the Qin Dyansty in 206BC. When they entered Guangdong province, the local pronounciation for them was 'Hakka'. Some Hakka did not stay in Guangdong, but carried-on migrating, crossing the Taiwan Striats and settling in Taiwan, were they still live today. Those who did stay in Guangdong, suffered a systematic persecution that culminated in the Hakka-Punti Clan wars (1840-1867). Punti being the Hakka term for indigenous peoples. Prior to this, the local people made the Hakka live in the smallest and poorest farming areas, and used Hakka men and Women as 'hsi min', or 'slaves'. Space was extremely limited and Hakka often built round walls around their villages. to protect against attack. The inner court yard, being in the centre of the structure, allowed for martial arts practice, without anyone soutside, being able to see. Such limitations in space are said to have been the stimulus for the 'altering' of the original northern Hakka arts, into the southern versions. But there is another reason attributed to the change - namely that of time. During the 19th century of almost total war, young Hakka men and women had to be trained to fight very quickly. When the Hakka were Royalty - and had the cultivated leisure to spend decades practicing and refining their martial and academic arts, the northern forms were developed and preserved. In the south however, space and time were not on the Hakka's side. Northern Hakka arts had/have a definite internal and a definite external element to them. Students are introduced to the yang and led to the yin. the process takes time and cultivated leisure. In the south, with the need for excellerated learning, process was speeded-up by integrating the two aspects that were once separate. What resulted was the numerous Praying Mantis styles, including Iron Ox (Dit Nyau). However, these are not the only Hakka styles in existance - they are from a certain area of south China. Also, not all northern styles in their pure form were changed. And there is good reason for this. The northern based arts were taught around the very real need for COMMUNITY defence, and not one on one combat - as is prevalent in th southern mantis styles. This is something of a huge contextual shift that passes many observors by. Original Hakka arts, north or south, were for the defence of the clan, their village and their farming lands - that is all. Hakka men and women would have a specific place in the role of defending the living area. Various families would train their descendents for what was needed for clan defence. The Juk Jeurng, or Clan Leader and his direct family, had the right to stand infront of the village defences to challenge the enemy with the strength of his clan's qi, embodied in his ancestry. The leader's family was invested with the ENTIRE clan's martial fighting system. This served as a fighting elite and a despository of clan history and culture. As and when the leader was killed, his son or next in line would take his place. If all the males were killed, then women in the leader's family then had the right to assume control of the clan as a fighting unit. When all the men of a clan were killed, (this happened often in the Clan Wars), and the women and children were left, and it looked as if they could not win, the women would kill their children and then themselves - such is Hakka culture. In recent Hakka history - one on one fighting - although not unknown, certainly wasn't the norm by any means. This is why the post-1867 mantis arts look as if all the community based self defence aspects have been stripped away. There is now only an emphasis upon one on one combat. But on the battlefield, an area had to be defended and attacks would come from any direction at anytime - one on one combat would not work in that environment. Many New Territories Hakka clans maintained this system up until relatively recently. A side note to this involves Hakka women training for combat. As they were expected to fight with their children tied to their back, the variants of the arts they learnt, were designed for just that activity. AL Hakkas trained for carry heavy weight on their backs, usually other villlagers, so that people and property could be lifted and carried away to safety if needed. Today, in the West, many say that they practice a Hakka art, and yet have no links to Hakka people, or understand Hakka history and culture. Simply having the name 'Hakka' at the front of an art, does not necessarily make it 'Hakka' and just because an art may not the word 'Hakka' at the front, doesn't necessarily make it non-Hakka.

As the southern styles of mantis do not seem to go back much further than the 19th century - and only then AFTER the Hakka defeat of 1867 - it seems unlikely that these arts existed much before this date. Yes - they were created for the 19th century, but the Hakka have always been well known for their gongfu - so I doubt southern praying mantis evovled from a vacuum. And I doubt that a northern art, having the same name, virtually the same generic origination theory, similar movements (albeit modified) and taught openly by a family carrying the name 'Wang' (Wong in Hakka), Would not be related. Infact, the shear weight of evidence would suggest otherwise. And the analogy I have used elsewhere, is that Okinawan Gojuryu Karate - Is said to be based upon Fujian White Crane Gongfu (Bak Hok), and yet in structure it looks absolutely nothing like Wihte Crane. The argument of structural differences does not stand up to scrutiny, as both Chinese AND Okinawan records attest to the link. But we must also remember that two different Chinese teachers can teach the SAME style in different ways, making those lineages appear unrelated. The context of both northern and southern praying mantis is that of a continuous narrative of development, from a structural, observational point of view. Where the problem occurs is with the layers of cultural belief that have accumilated over-time - usually involving Chinese lineage - the transmission to the West, and and incomplete knowledge of Chinese history and culture. The transmission is ongoing and still incomplete. And it is this 'incompleteness', that many base their judgements upon. For instance, Hakka language has at least 10 dialects and numerous sub-dialects, I would be interested to know how you know what Hakkas did or did not call their arts 600 years ago.



Thank you for your thought provoking post.

[David]

That was all very interesting but..

Your 19th Century naissance for "Southern Mantis" seems without foundation and it still doesn't connect NPM. It even seems like you're splitting the Hakka into unrelated, separate groups. Also, it seems like you don't accept that Beggar's style and it's spawn (the sister arts to SPM) actually exist(ed).

Also, there don't seem to be enough generations of NPM to go back 700 years. Was that a typo?

Rgds,
David

[AdrianChanWyles]

That was all very interesting but..

Your 19th Century naissance for "Southern Mantis" seems without foundation and it still doesn't connect NPM. It even seems like you're splitting the Hakka into unrelated, separate groups. Also, it seems like you don't accept that Beggar's style and it's spawn (the sister arts to SPM) actually exist(ed).

Also, there don't seem to be enough generations of NPM to go back 700 years. Was that a typo?

Rgds,
David

Hi David!

I think your knowledge of authentic Hakka culture should be augmented by the following;

The Story of the Hakka
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Harbor/6896/

When that is ingested, it will give you a more broader foundation for debate in this matter. Hakka culture can not be reduced to a few movements of a southern martial art - taught out of context, by non-Hakkas, or those who have no connection to Hakka martial arts. There is a wealth of information above to suggest a broad link. I do not accept your dates or definition from an academic perspective. I would like to know you references points for these dates, and the Hakka dialect you speak. Other than that, you are simply repeating a statement that you believe, through your knowledge of Hakka culture, history, language and martial training, namely that two arts that have the same generic foundation story, have a founder that has a Hakka name, have similar physical structures and tracable migration histories, are, in someway, not related. Well, that is a belief that can not be provern and is taken on 'faith'.

I accept your need to believe this version of events, after-all, much of martial tradition is of an oral nature. The 'facts' you convey, do not fit the known history of the Hakka people. And unless you want to write the founders of your art out of history, I would suggest that there is a contextual problem in your analysis.

Thank you for your contribution.

[AdrianChanWyles]

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/sm.html

Extract:
'The Jew (Chu, Chiao, Ju, Choi, Tsoi, Gee in Toishan, Zhu in Mandarin etc., all variations of the same name!) royal family was descendant of the Sung Dynasty by bloodline, and their members were by uncles and cousins related to the Ming Dyansty royal family (2)

The Jew Gar (Royal Family style) was a collection of techniques used by the Ming royal family. Emigrated Monks and rebels worked in the Fujian temple to develop a new style based on those techniques, but following their new concepts (no fancy movements, few forms to be learnt in a three year period, etc.). They created the new style combining the Northern Jew Gar techniques with the Southern Five Animals style. Therefore the new style has a southern flavor, but the remanent from the Chiao Northern family style is the phoenix fist punch, it is used in many northern styles, especially in the military ones (it is considered the hidden or special fist of some of these styles).

This style had at that time three forms and the name was changed to Praying Mantis to hide it from the Manchu spies. It was called mantis hoping to trick the Manchu guards making them think that the style was the same as the more popular Northern Shandong Praying Mantis. If the manchu soldiers knew that they were practicing the Ming royal family style, then they of course would be surely killed! '

I find the above article of some considerable interest. I am emailing the author for more information.

[David]

FB is mistaken about the naming of a style to mantis - that's worse than your idea by a long shot. It would mean that my cut-down non-nonsense style has half of its techniques just because the name changed.

Your theory/deductions are great except you can't connect what I study to what I know it came from; instead you insist it came from somewhere else

I can't remember if this issue of renaming came up when I spoke to FB a few years ago but he readily admitted that the document wasn't 100%. I seem to remember he got a lot of death threats (ok I exaggerate :D) from angry mantis.

I appreciate the eyebrow link - it was very helpful... You have to stop your head spinning a little Adrian and just focus your arguments on the areas of common-knowledge (or misinformation).

tonglong, bakmei, S White Crane (nam bak hok?), lung ying = HAKKA KUNG FU styles that have come out into the wider world. They are similar and their similarities are such that it's logical that they came from the Beggar style.

The Beggar style may be much older than NPM (you didn't confirm the century thing for me), or at least as old. Anyway, at some point between 600 and 300 years ago, both NPM and Beggar hand co-existed and were totally different ie unrelated. Beggar hand would not have been made out of 17 styles through collaboration because Hakka didn't mix enough to pick up Punti styles.

Tie it together or give it up, please! I don't mind which way it goes, so long as the famous Hakka styles get explained.

Did you know Chow Gar lineage is traced back one step further than Chu/Chow ah Naam? The Ip family have been onto this for a while, I first heard of it when I showed Prof Ilya Profatilov's mantis family tree to Ip Chee Keung. The extended lineage is available on http://www.chowgar.com.au/familytree.htm.

My head aches! :confused:

Rgds,
David

[AdrianChanWyles]

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id46.htm#


Extract:
'History of Praying Mantis (Southern)



Praying Mantis Boxing was originally created by Wang Lang during the Ching dynasty by incorporating the strong points of 18 boxing arts in North China.

The system quickly divided into two separate and distinctly different major factions, Northern and Southern Praying Mantis. These in turn branched into several styles.

Southern Praying Mantis Boxing is characterized by upright stances, hand forms and close range techniques. The exact origin of Southern Praying Mantis is controversial. It is generally believed to have been derived from the Shaolin System of Northern Mantis but refined and developed by the Hakka tribe of Kwangs province Southern China.

The Southern Praying Mantis system divided into four main branches, Chu Gar, Chou (Chow) Gar, Iron Ox, and Bamboo Forest.

In general Southern Mantis incorporates a centerline theory for fighting. Defense and attack techniques originate from one main stance. There is an emphasis on manipulation of an opponents attack to force openings in the defense. Vital points of the body are targeted, Kicks are often used in conjunction with arm movements for simultaneous attack or attack-defence combinations.'

So to recap and contextualise, there is a generic northern style of praying mantis - that has developed into a number of sub-groups, and variations. This style became known during the beginning of the Qing Dynasty (1644AD). In the south, there are at least four styles of southern praying mantis, all of which appear t be of Hakka origin and preserved within the Hakka clan system. They are;

Jook Lum (Bamboo Forest-Guangxi)
Chu Gar (Chu Family-Fujian)
Chow Gar (Chow Family-Guangdong)
Dit Nyau (Iron Ox-Guangdong)

All these styles are associated with a Hakka clan name, but Jook Lum may well have started life as a Ch'an Temple art in Guangxi province. The last I heard about Dit Nyau in the UK, the Hakka Ho family practice and preserve it. Both versions, north and south, share the same name. An above quoted article suggests that this is deliberate and was a ploy used to mislead invading Qing troops stationed in the south. This is interesting, but one has to ask, what woul dbe the point of such an act? Surely, the invading Manchurian Qing would view ALL Chinese as suspicious - particularly as a very vicious war had benn waged by the Qing to subjugate the Chinese. Infact, the Qing invasion took decades to complete - and although the Qing Dyansty takes its start date as 1644AD, fighting continued well into the 1660's. Why would the Qing consider a northern Chinese art more acceptable than a southern Chinese art? At this time, northern Chinese of a particluar culture and language resisted against the invading Qing armies, and fought a retreat southward, with the fleeing Ming forces. These people were the Hakka. By the end of the war, they had settled in Fujian, Guangdong and Guangxi provinces. Exactly the same areas that southern praying mantis is supposed to have evolved. As the Hakkas were fighting prior to the known founding dates of the southern mantis systems, it is unlikely that they entered southern China were NO fighting arts. Therefore, it is logical to suggest that the southern systems evolved from northern systems the Hakka brought with them. Hakka martial arts have always evolved - and the southern systems are no acception.

An interesting side note is not to confuse the two existing Chow Gar - Zhou Jia systems;

Zhou Jia Quan In Singapore;
http://www.geocities.com/zhoujiasg/HTML/History.html

[David]

It is generally believed to have been derived from the Shaolin System of Northern Mantis but refined and developed by the Hakka tribe of Kwangs province Southern China.I'm going to rephrase my query.

If the quote is true, why did the Hakka "refine" it until it was of the same genealogical character as the Hakka non-mantis styles of white eybrows, dragon sign and southern white crane. Not only did they apparently refine it until it was indistiguishable from the other arts, but they even changed all the mantis-like parts of the system away from NPM.

I've connected SPM to contemporaneous non-mantis sister arts and traced them all back to Hakka Beggar's Hand . All you have to do is connect NPM with Beggar's Hand in order for NPM to be the progenator of SPM. That, or explain why Beggar's Hand is irrelevant to the story. So far, you've ignored that crux.

Yours in a spirit of honest enquiry,
David

PS I can't believe I just used "contemporaneous". First time in my life! :D

[AdrianChanWyles]

And this leads me on to the subject of 'why' the physical movements of northern praying mantis and southern praying mantis are different - once the Hakka people and their history are taken into account. Of course, I am suggesting that as the Hakka originated in the north of China (not just Henan- if one were to study the origins of Hakka Chinese names in the Chinese sources, one would find names as far afield as Gansu, Shanxi and Shaanxi, amongst others), brought their northern culture southward. In this culture was of course their particular arts of war. Perhaps the first significant change in Hakka martial culture, was the lose of the Steppe pony. Early Hakka ancestors were non-Han nomadic warriors, who routinely raided the settled peoples of what would become 'China' following the first Hakka Dynasty of the Qin (220BC-206AD). The situation in China was not conducive for the breeding and sustaining of the Steppe pony, and slowly, overtime, as the Hakka became more Sinotised - in other words, abandoned their nomadic life-style and adopted the settled farming methods of the indigenous people - the pony was lost. However, the original kicking in Hakka combat was from pony-back - Chinese horses did not have stirrups until much later - kicks were down, onto the enemy's head. Horse stance was taught from childhood, to prepare the Hakka warrior for riding the pony and controlling it with his/her legs, which gripped very strongly - both directing the pony, and keeping the rider in the saddle. Reigns were seldom used, as the leg control allowed weapons to be carried in either or both hands at once, including a shield. The Hakka warrior coud also dismount and mount with a practiced ease - and Hakka fighting off the pony had kicking at the three levels (i.e. lower, medium and higher), fighting at the three distances (close, medium and long), and a counter grappling ground fighting system used when swept off the feet. The purpose of the latter was to regain an upright stance as soon as possible, by breaking, gouging, dislocating and generally damaging the joints, groin, throat and eyes of the opponent. Weaponry was originally designed for use on pony-back, but could also be used on foot. The six foot spear, the long sword (Jian), bow and arrow and hatchet, amongst others. The original Hakka arts were designed for multiple attack situations, and to be used in a group, or on their own, accoridng to circumstance. They bear very little likeness to the modern, sport inspired arts that claim Hakka origination.

The Hakka arts, at their peak of development, were refined during the Qin, Han and Song Dynasties. With the leisure afforded by Royal rank, the Hakka were able to spend decades developing their arts in time of peace - with an emphasis on the 'internal'. Infact, the true Hakka arts are built upon practicality - it must work in combat, and the student must be trained to develop their mind (shen) and their energy (qi). This has always been case and is nothing new.

The southern praying mantis schools, are Hakka internal martial arts, taken out of its all round context, and practiced in isolation from the broader, external Hakka martial arts. This happened because the Hakka fought a terrible war in the 19th century, against the Qing state and the Cantonese - the Hakka also, and virtually at the sametime, led the Taiping Uprising. These two wars engulfed the whole of south China and led to the death of at least 20 million people. The Hakkas, although always outnumbered, always gave a good account of themselves. The Qing could only beat them with the aid of Western cannon. And that was supplied by the West, at the request of the Western Christian church - (as the Taipng Uprising was a Chinese Chrisitan Uprising, with its leader - Master Hong - claiming to have come from God - just like Jesus) who would not tolerate a Chinese form of Christianity.

After the defeat in 1867 - Hakka culture was assaulted on every front. Hakka people were ethnically cleansed and their children forced to talk Cantonese and practice Cantonese culture. Hakka martial arts either died out altogether, through fear of persecution if caught practicing - or they disappeared underground. The southern branches managed to survive because the masters of those styles thought that the highest in Hakka martial culture was the 'intenral' legacy. From the internal, all things spring. The structural differences between northern and southern mantis exist as they should, and as should be expected. The northern version still maintains the balance of internal and external elements that make it so effective - the southern versionreminds us of recent Hakka history - and the wisdom that has been preserved, despite the suffering of millions. There are strucural differences between the two arts - but that is only at surface level. Dig abit deeper and why this is becomes apparent.

[mantis108]

Hi Adrian, David and All,

Interesting discussion so far. :) I would like to thank Adrian for your exceptional input and support. I appreciate it. I also think that David has put forth some rather interesting perspective with the connection of SPM and its sister arts.

Personally, there is no hard evidence whatsoever to suggest that SPM came out of NPM although they MIGHT have shared a common ancestry in Fanziquan which essentially is a Duan Da (short strike) methology.

In my correspondence with Fernando, we briefly discussed this article in question. I think he did a great job given the information that were available to him. I can understand his sentiment that it's a working progress at the time and it's a little summary of what has become a puzzle that started to piece together.

I believe we have to address the following as the information and research into the origin of what is now known as NPM is more openly available. We DO NOT have to rely on myths and legends to understand where NPM in general came from.

Praying Mantis Boxing was originally created by Wang Lang during the Ching dynasty by incorporating the strong points of 18 boxing arts in North China.

The Wang Lang legend is agreed upon as a mean to stop the infighting within the NPM community IMHO.

The legend came out of a manuscript titled "Luohan Xinggong Duanda" (Arhat Exercise Merits Short Strike AKA Shaolin Authentics). There are scholars in the Mainland that pointed out the possibility that the 18 Families sonnet in the manuscript is a hoax. The author Sheng Xiao Dao Ren (mid 1700s CE) could have been native of Shandong and lived extremely close by (Laixi?) the birth place of the Greater Meihwa Line of praying mantis - Laizhou (both Haiyang and Laiyang Counties). This means that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's (possibly a pen name) vision of Tanglang is infact indigenous Shandong martial arts albeit its eclectic nature of both Changquan and Duanda traditions.

The enigma of the Shaolin Authentics is that it's extremely cryptic borrowing ideas from Yijing (classic of change), Huangdi Neijing (internal classic of Yellow Emperor) , Jianjing (sword classic) plus possible pugilistic manuscripts of Tongbi style and may be sonnets from other styles. It also included a lot of concepts and materials from Daoist and Confucian schools. It's quite a piece of work despite the fact that it might have disregarded historical and political correctness IMHO. But then that's arts for you. ;)

The system quickly divided into two separate and distinctly different major factions, Northern and Southern Praying Mantis. These in turn branched into several styles.

Unfortunately, this statement can not be quantified or justified IMHO. Since there is no evidence to suggest that SPM has ever come across the Shaolin Authentics.

just some thoughts

Mantis108

[AdrianChanWyles]

Dear Mr Hui

Thank you for your kind words. I think the analysis falls into two broad camps;

1) Analysis of the physical movements of various arts, and tracing those movements from one style to another - in a vacuum from the forces of history.

2) Analysising the arts in the context of China in general, and Hakka history inparticular.

Many commentators on Hakka history never ask Hakkas what they think about their own culture - what are the stories, legends, myths and FACTS passed on in a common linguistic culture - perpetuated rom one generation to the next. In the Hakka community I inhabit, we talk about the history we have created, and we live everytime we practice our arts. The elders pass-on the wisdom. I think, as an academic, that both points of analysis have to be applied. But those who benefit from the Hakka arts need to acknowledge that there is a great void in their knowledge, as regards general Hakka culture. The Hakka arts did not evolve in a vacuum. And the history of an art is more than just the sum of its movements, or arbitrary names applied to those sets of movements.

The southern Hakka arts have indeed embued the qualities of other southern arts, hardly surprising, when one considers the suppression of Hakka culture. But as poined out elsewhere, by others on this forum, there still exists northern Hakka arts that can not be explained with the normal 'ignoring' of Hakka history as a whole. I can see that there is a different world of Hakka arts, out side of Hakka culture, but there is also another world WITHIN Hakka culture - and at the moment, the two worlds are not meeting. Perhaps threads like this, and the people who contribute to them, help to merge the two worlds.

Thank you.

[David]

I've enjoyed the history lessons, guys and I'll probably print some of them tomorrow.

That said...

I think my work here is done.

Rgds,
David

[AdrianChanWyles]

Hi Adrian, David and All,

Interesting discussion so far. :) I would like to thank Adrian for your exceptional input and support. I appreciate it. I also think that David has put forth some rather interesting perspective with the connection of SPM and its sister arts.

Personally, there is no hard evidence whatsoever to suggest that SPM came out of NPM although they MIGHT have shared a common ancestry in Fanziquan which essentially is a Duan Da (short strike) methology.

In my correspondence with Fernando, we briefly discussed this article in question. I think he did a great job given the information that were available to him. I can understand his sentiment that it's a working progress at the time and it's a little summary of what has become a puzzle that started to piece together.

I believe we have to address the following as the information and research into the origin of what is now known as NPM is more openly available. We DO NOT have to rely on myths and legends to understand where NPM in general came from.



The Wang Lang legend is agreed upon as a mean to stop the infighting within the NPM community IMHO.

The legend came out of a manuscript titled "Luohan Xinggong Duanda" (Arhat Exercise Merits Short Strike AKA Shaolin Authentics). There are scholars in the Mainland that pointed out the possibility that the 18 Families sonnet in the manuscript is a hoax. The author Sheng Xiao Dao Ren (mid 1700s CE) could have been native of Shandong and lived extremely close by (Laixi?) the birth place of the Greater Meihwa Line of praying mantis - Laizhou (both Haiyang and Laiyang Counties). This means that Sheng Xiao Dao Ren's (possibly a pen name) vision of Tanglang is infact indigenous Shandong martial arts albeit its eclectic nature of both Changquan and Duanda traditions.

The enigma of the Shaolin Authentics is that it's extremely cryptic borrowing ideas from Yijing (classic of change), Huangdi Neijing (internal classic of Yellow Emperor) , Jianjing (sword classic) plus possible pugilistic manuscripts of Tongbi style and may be sonnets from other styles. It also included a lot of concepts and materials from Daoist and Confucian schools. It's quite a piece of work despite the fact that it might have disregarded historical and political correctness IMHO. But then that's arts for you. ;)



Unfortunately, this statement can not be quantified or justified IMHO. Since there is no evidence to suggest that SPM has ever come across the Shaolin Authentics.

just some thoughts

Mantis108

Yes - yet again your post has made me think beyond the initial reading! In one o fmy books, I found the following;

'The Mantis Boxing was created by Wang Lang, a native of Jimo County, Shandong Province.

Mantis was created by incorporating the strong points of the boxing arts of the 18 schools in the North of China. For instance, the Foot-shooting Boxing (Peng Pu Chuan), The Drunken Arhat's Boxing, and the Thrusting Boxing (Lan Chieh Chuan).

The Mantis Boxing has fallen into two schools, the external and the internal. Seven Stars, Plum Blossom and the Secret Sect fall under hard. while the six-Combination Mantis Boxing is part of the soft.'

Yuen, Man Kai. Northern Mantis Intercepting Boxing. Yih Mei Book Co, Ltd. Hong Kong. 1991. Page 5.

And in another, I read this;

'The Northern Praying Mantis Boxing is the integration of 18 northern schools. It includes Yen Ching's and Lin Chung's art of attack and defence. As described in the novel Water Margin, Yen Ching's skill in pouncing is absolutely unrivalled, while Lin Chung's martial arts are of country wide reknown.

According to pugilists through the ages, in the Northern Song Dynasty, there was a man called Chou Tung who was Yueh Fei's teacher. Apart from being a Chinese language teacher, he excelled in martial arts. He can be counted as an outstanding teacher.

Both Lin Chung and Lu Chun-yi of Water Margin fame, learnt from Chou.

According to the records of the Northern Mantis-style, since Lin Chung, Yen Ching and Yueh Fei were of the same school, their methods and postures were inevitably included in the Northern Mantis Style.'

Yuen, Man Kai. Northern Mantis Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing. Yih Mei BookCo, Ltd. Hong Kong. 1991. Page 7-8.

Why Wang Lang would have to travel as far away from Shandong to Henan - to practice martial arts in a Ch'an Buddhist Temple is something of a mystery - as Shandong is famous for its own Ch'an Temples that advocated martial practice - he didn't need to travel that far. Infact, one particular Ch'an Temple in Shandong became central to the Boxer Uprising of 1898-1900. We can also see that Northern Praying Mantis is not a single style, but many. Anyone of these other styles could be of Hakka origin, and anyone of these Hakka styles could have been part of the founding methodology for Southern Praying mantis, taken southward with the numerous Hakka migrations. But perhaps the most interesting connection is that of maste Chou Tung. Chou, Aslo written Zhou in pinyin, is pronounced Chow in Hakka. Perhaps this Chow could be a clan relative of Chow Fook To - the founder of Southern Praying Mantis? Just a thought.

[mantis108]

Why Wang Lang would have to travel as far away from Shandong to Henan - to practice martial arts in a Ch'an Buddhist Temple is something of a mystery - as Shandong is famous for its own Ch'an Temples that advocated martial practice - he didn't need to travel that far.

Personally, this is a myth. Again the whole Wang Lang went to Henan Shaolin is based on a version of the Shaolin Authentics that is found in the library of Shaolin. That's their so-called "proof". But as Sheng Xiao Dao Ren wrote in his introduction of his re-edited Luohan Xinggong Duanda manuscript that the original copy of his work was taken by his student in the old capital of Manchurian territory which is modern day Shengyang. So there are possible copies flowing arround over there. The real mystery is that he claimed he based his work on Shaolin Fuju monk who's identity has been challenged and no conclusive opinion has been formed yet.

Infact, one particular Ch'an Temple in Shandong became central to the Boxer Uprising of 1898-1900.

Yihequan (boxers as coined) is somewhat of a third generation derivity so to speak of White Lotus cult. My friend's Great Grand teacher of Fanziquan was a member of Yihequan who worked as a caravan escort. White Lotus is a Chinese grass root religious phenonemon. It is highly opportunistic and anamorphic in nature.

We can also see that Northern Praying Mantis is not a single style, but many. Anyone of these other styles could be of Hakka origin, and anyone of these Hakka styles could have been part of the founding methodology for Southern Praying mantis, taken southward with the numerous Hakka migrations.

Not familiar with this idea, I have no comment.

But perhaps the most interesting connection is that of maste Chou Tung. Chou, Aslo written Zhou in pinyin, is pronounced Chow in Hakka. Perhaps this Chow could be a clan relative of Chow Fook To - the founder of Southern Praying Mantis? Just a thought.

Chou Tung or Zhou Tong is said to be the teacher (also Shaolin disciple or monk)of the renowned General Yue Fei. Legend somehow attributed him as teaching both Chuo Jiao and Fanzi albeit today they acknowledged each other as sister styles. This is Henan Shaolin temple tries to lay claim on both Chuo Jiao and Fanzi. In the 18 families sonnet, Lin Chong who's a character in the novel Water Margin is said to be a master of Chuo Jiao (Yuanyang Jiao). Personally, I doubt this.

As for Chow Fook, he was not Hakka as far as I know. He's from Fa County, Canton. He spoke fluent Hakkannese though. I had on a few occassions to go Yum Cha (drink tea) with him and his Hakka buddies. I set at the table and didn't have a clue of what the conversions were about. So.... :(

Warm regards

Robert

[AdrianChanWyles]

Dear Mr Hui

Thank you for your guidance and wisdom in this matter. Of course, it is entriely another argument as to what constitutes a 'Hakka' person! However, as I have to ingest your post more fully, I shall write in more depth at a later time.

Thank you.

[Lam Tong Long]

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/moses/1049/id46.htm#


Extract:
'History of Praying Mantis (Southern)

Adrian,

Just because SOMEBODY wrote SOMETHING about SPM on a webpage doesn't make it 100% accurate or even true.

What is the special inside knowledge the writer had that students directly under the lineage holders of style do not know?

The system quickly divided into two separate and distinctly different major factions, Northern and Southern Praying Mantis. These in turn branched into several styles.

Any facts to verify this OPINION?

The Southern Praying Mantis system divided into four main branches, Chu Gar, Chou (Chow) Gar, Iron Ox, and Bamboo Forest.

If this were true then all SPM would be able to trace a common ancestor. However that is not the case for many lineages.

And why would several branches of SPM all have completely different creation stories?

Jook Lum (Bamboo Forest-Guangxi)
Chu Gar (Chu Family-Fujian)
Chow Gar (Chow Family-Guangdong)
Dit Nyau (Iron Ox-Guangdong)

It has been suggested that both Chu and Chow share common ancestry. Would that not make the locations above seem a little odd?

but Jook Lum may well have started life as a Ch'an Temple art in Guangxi province.

Nope. Not a Ch'an Temple according to those that practice Jook Lum. Unless you can show different.

Jay

[Oso]

Southern Praying Mantis: The New Wing Chun.







































:p ;)

[Firehawk4]

Sou Gar Hakka Tong Long History

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The history of the southern Gottesanbeterin is not to be investigated particularly in its beginnings today to no more and by legends surrounded. It gives, or better, Yun Nan, Kuang Xi, Fu Jian and canton gave three and/or four basis schools in the provinces. The first basis school is the Qin Chung Pai school of the province Yun Nan. The second basis school is the Chu Lin Jia (Juk Lam). From it and the Qin Chung Pai school develop the Hui Jia (Wooi) school. Today there are however no teachers of the Qin Chung Pai and the Hui Jia school more. The third basis school originates from the province Fu Jian (Hokkian) and Ke Jia (Hakka) school (after the race of the Hakka) is called
The Hakka was and/or. is a race, which similarly our gypsies, by whom different southern provinces moved. They were not poor and due to their other life habits and its language gladly seen. Their Kung Fu schools and systems was passed on therefore in each case at pupils of their own people and remained to a large extent secret into the today's time. The third basis school is of the monk the Chu Fook ton based hooks Ka Tong Long school. It is called also Kwangtung and/or canton Hakka Tong Long. It split, after it brought Grossmmeister Lau Siu to Hong Kong, into the two systems Chu Kune and Chow up Kune. Vielfaetig is also reported that the second basis school Kuang Xi Chu Lin Jia (Juk Lam) descends from the third basis school.
Beside the school of Chu Fook ton gives it still another second basis school hook ka direction. Of it is here reported, however it is expressly pointed out that it concerns a legend, which was not passed on in the family Sou and for it proofs gives
The developing legend of the Hokkian Hakka Naam Paai Tong Long Sou Kune school
From this direction Sou DAK Loong is considered as a founder of the second basis school hooks ka. It is reported by it that it as a farmer during the early seaweed dynasty (618-907 n. Chr.) in the province Fu Jian lived. While a over case of robbers it was separated from its family and hurt heavily. Its wife died, its son Sou Cheung Shik buildup with his uncle. DAK Loong was taken up by monks of the "Siu Chuk Lam Ji" - monastery and maintained healthy. Siu Chuk Lam Ji was a small folder "there of the Chuk Lam Ji" - monastery, which lay more north, as the master monastery. By that altogether 25 monastery members 18 monks were trained and in Kung Fu. Their style was not uniform and it gave according to the 18 monks 18 different animal styles, which were there: 1.Lung (Drache); 2.Hu (tiger); 3. She (queue); 4.Pao (leopard); 5.Hao (Kranich); 6. Hou (ape); 7.Ying (eagle); 8. Fung (Phoenix); 9. Kou (dog); 10. Mao (Katze);11. Xiang (elephant); 12. Shi (lion); 11 Hsiong (bear); 12.Ma (horse); 13.Xing (gorilla); 14. Lue (deer); 13. Niao (bird) and 15.Shan Mo (luchs). Each monk controlled an animal school. The names of the monks depended on the animal, which they represented. The abbott of the temple was the "kite monk". After the recovery DAK Loong wanted to likewise become monk and learn Kung Fu. It watched secretly the combat exercises of the other monks and learned so the basis techniques. But around an adequate monk to become it had to develop its own animal style on instruction of the abbott. That was not simple, because all "strong" animals were already "assigned". DAK Loong sat down on a meadow and watched the other monks training. There he saw a Gottesanbeterin, which fought with a bird and finally drove this out in the Grass. Curiously become DAK Loong carried the animal forward and fed it with grasshoppers and other insects. From the catch and flappings he developed his own style. Thus it was able to defeat some the other monks with training. He trained now together with the monks and combined new techniques in addition. Although it practiced at the same time with all, it took over only certain techniques, which meaningful it considered. After years intensive trainings he was even in a the position to defeat the abbott and after its death became DAK Loong an abbott of the temple and received the title "large Drache". Only later DAK Loong experienced years that its son Cheung Shik still lived. It informed it secretly outside of the temple. Thus the "Siu Chuk Lam Tong Long" Kung Fu was outward carried. Sou Cheung Shik kept the art exclusive in the family. Only the school later divided 5 generations. Sou Lan mix emigrated after north China and brought the school to the emperor palace, its brother Sou San Tong remained in canton and passed the school on within his family. With ends the part which is passed on in the family Sou as legend. The following part is indicated as true history.

The history of the Hokkian Hakka Naam Paai

[Firehawk4]

Continuing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the complete assumption in the year 1644 it gave constantly heavy fights between the Ming rebels and the Ching soldiers to the government by the Manchus. Nearly all Kung Fu schools and master revolted against the Manchus. Also Sou Fong Gim, Nafchfahre of the "Siu Chuk Lam Tong Long" school after Sou San Tong fought also. It possessed two sons, Sou Fook Loong and Sou Ching Loong, which were both twins. There however after old law of the family only the oldest son (no daughter) the school to resume, decided Sou Fong Gim, which both brothers fight against each other to let and the winner might resume the school, was allowed.

The Yin Yeung Tong Long school develops
Sou Ching Loong was already superior to its brother since earliest childhood physically, it was substantially stronger. In order to be able to defeat its brother, Fook Long observed two Gottesanbeterinnen in the fight against each other, which he marked by a white and a black point on the back. Thus it studied not groove the attacks of the two insects, but particularly the defense techniques of each individual Gottesanbeterin. In the fight against its brother it could repel and counter with it each attack and defeat its brother. He became successor of its father and developed in such a way the "Yin Yang seaweed long" school (sometimes not to confound with that as Yin Yang seaweed long school long Pai likewise designated direction of the northern Gottesanbeterin of the Tai Chi seaweed). Many terms and basic patterns today still descend from this school
Internal techniques and color magic one introduces
Its son Sou Cheng pan resumed the tradition. It refined the techniques and marked different Gottesanbeterinnen with color points and let it fight against each other. From the techniques of each Gottesanbeterin it developed forms (Kuen) and combined these forms with magic and taoistischen ways of thinking.
Sou Cheng pan passed its techniques on to its son Sou seaweed Loong. This informed again are son Sou Wan Loong. Wan Loong introduced "internal techniques" to the school. Its style became thereby than this before the case was substantially softer. Wan Loong passed its style on to its son Sou Hung Ping.

Hakka Say Kune(of four fists of the Hakka) develops
Sou hung Peng was a freedom fighter in addition, an excellent master of the Sou Tong Long school. During its many migrations by China he learned you Yang of brothers Yang Shan Tong (Lung Ying Pai: = Kite style) and Yang Shan Chi (Fung Ying Pai; = Phoenix style) as well as the beggar Lim Bek Sen (Bek chew Pai; = white apes) know style. The four combined its techniques and it developed the Hakka Say Kune school. From it the famous "Say company Kuen" (4 methods of fists) followed, which was used later even in some Japanese carat styles.

[Firehawk4]

Continuing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Sou Tong Long school and the Tai Ping revolution
Hakka Say Kune was passed on nationality exclusively to member of the Hakka -, however the four teachers had only ten pupils. Sou Ping hung had three sons: Sou Ng Kong, Sou Bak Lay and Sou Bak Loong. The middle son Sou Bak Lay became inheritance of the Hakka Say Kune technology, its older brother Sou Ng Kong against it inheritance of the old Sou Tong Long school. Sou Bak Loong, the youngest son learned likewise the old Sou Tong Long school, but he was not a fighter and was more interested in the trade, than its both brothers, who were substantially better fighters. While Sou Ng Kong its Kung Fu for itself kept, Sou Bak Lay pupils trained, who should make the revolution of the old traditions. It was a revolutionary and a close friend of Hung Hsiu Chuan, the large Hakka leader of the Tai Ping rebel. During the preparation to the Tai Ping many famous fighters in the house of Sou Bak Lay met revolution (1850-1864). Here also a meeting of the other schools of the southern Gottesanbeterin (the school after Chu Fook ton and the Qin Chung Pai school) was, as well as other Hakka schools.

Sou Lian Kong combines the different schools of the southern Gottesanbeterin
Sou Bak Lays brother Sou Bak Loong lived with its family in canton. When it and his wife with a house fire died, its son Sou Lian Kong stayed alone. It lived as a vagabond in the roads and because it was very weak, it was frequently struck and flogged by Wegelagerern and other people. A daily came a monk named Lee SAM Sien from the Juk Lam monastery of the province Kuang Xi into the area. Sou Lian Kong followed the monk and learned with it the Kuang Xi Juk Lam Tong Long technology (the southern Gottesanbeterin of the province Kuang Xi). Meanwhile Lee SAM Sian had experienced the fact that Sou Lian Kong was a nephew of Sou Bak Lay was and brought it in its house. But only later Lian Kong its master left 5 years, in order to decrease/go back and to it the last honour prove its dying uncle Sou Ng Kong, which lived in the house of its brother Sou Bak Lay. From Ng Kong he learned the old Sou - techniques, before this died, of Sou Bak Lay the Hakka Say Kune, whereby he attached naturally particular importance to the technology of the southern Gottesanbeterin, which possessed certain similarities with the Juk Lam school. In this time it often visited the Tong Long school of the province Yun Nan, the Qin Chung Pai school gotten used to with its uncle as a courier. Since Sou Bak Lay with one Kung Toh, which large master of the Qin Chung Pai school was very closely friendly, became it also its nephew permitted to participate in instruction. Thus it was informed not only in the basis techniques, but also in the higher forms.

[Firehawk4]

Continuing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sou Lian Kong became acquainted with in this time also teachers of other schools. After the death of Sou Bak Lay left Lian Kong the house of his uncle, married closely Miao Leng and settled in a small village Kun Gan in canton. Kune after its death it left its son Tid Mun its style, which it called Sou Kune to Kun Gan, the homeland of the "new one" Sou. Sou Tid Mun did not live as a farmer in Kun Gan. it was a large fighter, but passed on its Kung Fu to its two sons Sou Wai Keung and Sou Yaat Loong. Its second son Sou min Loong died with 12 years. When continual robbers broke in into the village and terrorized the inhabitants, the village municipality decided to send their oldest sons on journeys in order to learn and their village to defend be able Kung Fu. That was a heavy decision, because from then on naturally many workers were missing, but the farmers did not see other possibility. Thus they created the Kun Gan secret federation, which had put itself it to the goal of destroying all injustice. Particularly naturally the robber troops. Sou Wai Keung creates the "new" Sou Kune also Sou Wai Keung, the oldest son left the village. He had learned of course from childhood to the Sou Kune technology of its father, in addition, he took off, in order to learn new techniques. It looked for schools, which used long hand techniques, because the Sou Kune school did not know these techniques. After history he is to have partly learned different styles in different cities south of China. But no style pleased it so much that it decided to learn it completely. With its migrations he came also to Lo Ping into the province Yun Nan. lived there an old Lama priest with names came Po. of these was a master that Lama and Boc Hok Pai school (white Kranich). Sou Wai Keung became its best pupil. After it 7 years the Bok Hoc Pai - school had learned, it teachers in the house of his master, its master taught its faithful pupil thereafter over 3 years the old secret Lama techniques, to those also SI there Tui techniques belonged. To the death of its teacher Sou Wai Keung returned to its homeland village Kun Gan. There it met all its old friends again, who were likewise taken off in accordance with the rule of their village, in order to learn new Kung Fu techniques. With its friends he trained together and learned also their techniques. Out of the in such a way acquired knowledge it formed 1922 its own style, which it called SOU KUNE. One notes that for the first time particle emerges here "" (family). This should indicate, particularly in the public that it concerns a family style, contrary to the techniques of the Sou Kune practiced before in the secret one. Sou Wai Keung passed its system on to its younger brother Sou Yat Loon. This added the system two Shao Lin of styles, which he had learned in Shanghai in addition, without changing however thereby the basis forms of its brother. Successor Sou Yat Loongs, that again techniques noerdl. Gottesanbeterin the system added and it on then to his pupil Hans Ulrich summer passed.
http://translate.google.com/translat...UTF-8%26sa%3DG

[Firehawk4]

History



Lam Pok Koon, raises of Wang Lang formed with the styles of the south and with bouddhic philosophy, preferred the movements of lower amplitude and the purely martial aspect. It named its art O Mei Tang Lang, the "Mante of the flower of plum tree".

Its successor, Chu Nam Chea , faithful to the ideals of Shaolin in the fight against Xing (Mandchoues), had to take refuge in Ng Wa (Kwang Tung). He founded a secret society there, Chu Gar Kau Tong (secret Cabin of the Chu family), with laquelles joined the monks Shaolin Wong Wo Chek and Wong Wo Wing, which became its disciples. After long years of guerrilla against Mandchoues, they were betrayed and attacked of night. Wong Wo Chek and Wong Wo Wing succeeded in escaping and went to Singapore, where they established their art, which they named Chu Gar in remembering their Master.

Lau Choi Koon , raises of Wong Wo Chek, adopted Tai Ping on the continent in their fight against Mandchoues. The long tour of the rebels through China of the south allowed Chu Gar to be established. Lau Choi Koon made known it near the sects of the White Lotus (Pak Lin Kao) and of Eight Trigrams (Pa Kwa Kao). The school amalgamated with several styles, of which Mok Gar and Lok Tsai Gar.

Chu Gar was transmitted via Ho Woon Sing, of Tsang Loy Foon, Wong Fook KB, the brothers Lau Sui and Lau Fu Yuen, whose disciple Lau Sui introduced Mante of the south with Hong Kong in 1915.



Styles

Chow Gar Tang Lang Quan : the religious mante of the Chow family.
Chu Gar Tang Lang Quan : the religious mante of the Chu family.
Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Feeds (Mui Fa Tong Long Feeds) : "the religious mante of the forest of bamboo" was founded at the 18th century by the monk Sam Dart (Som Dat Wo Shing, Dot Bo, Som Dot) . The monk Lee Shem See (Lee Siem See, Hung Mui Wo Shing) , from the temple Jook Lum of the province of Kwong Sai, was frequently going to teach Long Tong in the area of Dong Gung. He took for pupil Chung Yel Jung , of the area of Wai Ying, which he brought back to the temple. In the years 1890, Chung returned in Wai Ying to open there a private clinic and a school, which it named Kwong Sai Jook Lum Gee Tong Long Feeds Then founded another school with Hong Kong in the years 1900. Its art, known then under the name of Hakka Kuen , was reserved to the Hakka people of the south of China. A third school opened in Kowloon in the years 1930.

[AdrianChanWyles]

Adrian,

Just because SOMEBODY wrote SOMETHING about SPM on a webpage doesn't make it 100% accurate or even true.

What is the special inside knowledge the writer had that students directly under the lineage holders of style do not know?



Any facts to verify this OPINION?



If this were true then all SPM would be able to trace a common ancestor. However that is not the case for many lineages.

And why would several branches of SPM all have completely different creation stories?



It has been suggested that both Chu and Chow share common ancestry. Would that not make the locations above seem a little odd?



Nope. Not a Ch'an Temple according to those that practice Jook Lum. Unless you can show different.

Jay

As an academic, I am well aware of the inconsistencies that exist in texts - for instance, according to your logic, just becaue something occurs on a webpage - it does no make it 'true', I assume the same would apply to your above post? The quotes are there for anyone interested in looking them up, etc.

My point is this; Chinese martial history is incomplete when viewed 'outside' of the history of the ethnic group that developed a particular martial art. Simply comparing arm and leg movements is not good enough. In the West, the transmission of Chinese arts is incomplete.

Ethnic history is a 'living' history. Martial arts history is a 'group memory', not a disparate search. To analysis Hakka martial arts - and yet 'ignore' the ethnic history of the Hakka people - is sheer folly. Who would you listen to, non-Hakka people with NO experience or knowledge of Hakka language, history or culture, or the Hakka people themselves, who probably live all around you, and you don't even realise it?

[Lam Tong Long]

As an academic, I am well aware of the inconsistencies that exist in texts - for instance, according to your logic, just becaue something occurs on a webpage - it does no make it 'true', I assume the same would apply to your above post? The quotes are there for anyone interested in looking them up, etc.

Adrian,

The same would not apply to my above post because I can qualify it as a member of a HAKKA martial family, run by HAKKA people who have explained to me, IN HAKKA, that some of the 'facts' presented are not consistent with the oral history passed down by my HAKKA predecessors.

In the West, the transmission of Chinese arts is incomplete.

A bold, and grossly incorrect statement. Do you practice in 'The West'?. If so, then by your statement, you transmit Chinese arts incompletely.

To analysis Hakka martial arts - and yet 'ignore' the ethnic history of the Hakka people - is sheer folly.

And when was this claimed? When did anyone say 'ignore' ethnic history of Hakka people when analysing Hakka martial art?

Who would you listen to, non-Hakka people with NO experience or knowledge of Hakka language, history or culture,

I know plenty of non-Hakka people who are very good at Hakka martial arts. So yes, I would listen to them. It sounds like you are suggesting that only Hakka people should teach/learn Hakka arts.

Even if a person has no experience/knowledge of Hakka language, history or culture, if they have the hands, then they have the hands.

or the Hakka people themselves, who probably live all around you, and you don't even realise it?

WOW! Your head truely is so far up your own backside. How do you know anything about "what I realise"? As "an academic" surely you realise talking in a vacuum is vacuous!

LOL at the new village idiot....yes, Adrian maybe it's just that I don't realise that there are many hakka people who might even live around me (like my wife, daughter, her family, my sihings, my sidai's, my sisuk/sibaht's, my sigung, all their families, my friends and their families).

I better go and double check...there may be more Hakka people living around me that I haven't realised yet....:eek:

[AdrianChanWyles]

Yihequan (boxers as coined) is somewhat of a third generation derivity so to speak of White Lotus cult. My friend's Great Grand teacher of Fanziquan was a member of Yihequan who worked as a caravan escort. White Lotus is a Chinese grass root religious phenonemon. It is highly opportunistic and anamorphic in nature.

Dear Mr Hui

I suspect that you are aware of Joseph Esherick's 'The Origins of the Boxer Uprising'? Esherick spent three years at Shandong University and was given full access to al the Chinese sources on the matter of the Shen Bing (Spirit Soldiers), Tian Bing (Heavenly Soldiers) and of course the Yihequan (Righteous, Harmonious Fists). These names often overlapped, and yet according to region, there were some interesting ritual differences, etc. This is what Esherick writes, regarding the link between the White Lotus and the Yihequan;

'In P.R.C. historiography, of course, the White Lotus link has performed exactly the opposite function - linking the Boxers to a "progressive" rebel tradition. There have been several quite sophisticated studies in this vein, usually based on some similarity or analogy between Boxer and White Lotus beliefs.

But in the end, the notion that the Boxers grew from organisational and ideological roots laid down by the White Lotus sectarians seems fatally flawed. One attractions of the theory was the explanation it provided for the Boxers' ability to mobilise so many people so quickly: they simply called existing sectarian networks. Yet it is quite clear from the oral history sources (and implicit in much of the documentary record) that virtually all the Spirit Boxers were newly recruited to the organisation. Furthermore, the Spirit Boxers were everywhere regarded as something new on the village scene. People could recall when they first appeared.'

Esherick, JW. The Origins of the Boxer Uprising. University of California Press. Berkeley. 1987. Page 220.

And throughtout his study, Esherick draws a clear parallel between the 'official' history of the PRC, and the local history of the people who actually live through the events, and passed down those memories through the generations. As Shandong appears to be the place that Praying Mantis was developed within, an understanding of what type of place this was/is is important in a debate regarding the possible relationship (or not) between styles. Shandong had always been known for its heterogenous nature and the fact that very few, if any of its villages were single clan name settlements. Populations were continuously moving and the area was often penetrated by the 'northern tribes'. The people are described as war-like and prone to fight. Infact, it is not surprising that the Boxers starte in this area, Esherick continues;

'At the smae time, an identifiable Spirit Boxer leadership was emerging in Chiping - headed by Zhu Hong-Deng, soon to become the most famous of all Shandong Boxer leaders, and the monk Xin-cheng. Zhu was a poor landless agricultural laborer who had come Big Li Village from outside with his uncle. It was after he came to Big Li Village that Zhu learned Spirit Boxer - possibly from the monks at the Cloud Zen Temple (Yun-Ch'an, si) just southwest of the village. There is, in any case, fairly general agreement that Zhu learned his Spirit Boxing in Changqing, and that he was not himself the original teacher who brought the practice to the area.'

Esherick, JW. The Origins of the Boxer Uprising. University of California Press. Berkeley. 1987. Page224.

Of course, throughout the hstory of the Yihequan, the Meihuaquan is mentioned quite extensively.

[AdrianChanWyles]

FireHawk4 - thank so much for your positive, useful and well researched contributions to this thread.

I think that the Communist Revolution on the Mainland of China (1949) has confused and interupted the transmission of Chinese cultural martial arts to the world. And the Cultural Revolution (1966-76) essentially destroyed 'Old' wisdom and knowledge. Old martial arts were eventually replaced by modern WuShu. However, in the Chinese diaspora, in other words, the Chinese already living outside of China - by and large, these communities did not undergo the traumatic and sudden break with the past that the Mainland underwent. So at present, there are two parallel Chinese traditions, each vying with the other for supremacy and legitimacy. One originates from Chinese lineages that have practiced martial arts for centuries - the other eminates from the state sponsored, Mainland authorised, gymnasiums of the PRC. The older Chinese diaspora, which is all around us in the West and elsewhere, contains the traditions that were not destroyed by Communism. Hong Kong's New Territories was annexed by the British in 1898 - but Hakka of the area were then protected from the Communist AND Nationalist forces of China. The Briitsh did not interfer in the day-today running of the NT and as a consequence, a very old and traditional form of Hakka culture has been preserved. Of course, it is not the only place - Taiwan has a very old Hakka community and there are even Hakka living in Calcutta, India!

[David]

In the West, the transmission of Chinese arts is incomplete.Wrong. You're supposed to shut up once you're proved incorrect. What's wrong with you?

Ethnic history is a 'living' history. Martial arts history is a 'group memory', not a disparate search. To analysis Hakka martial arts - and yet 'ignore' the ethnic history of the Hakka people - is sheer folly. Who would you listen to, non-Hakka people with NO experience or knowledge of Hakka language, history or culture, or the Hakka people themselves, who probably live all around you, and you don't even realise it?I know a bunch of Hakka in my area including one boy who comes to be taught by my English born-n-bred teacher. Get over your race issues and get a grip because denying a thing within a limited community is not to suppress it in the rest of the world. What's Hakkanese for dysfunctional? Write it backwards on your forehead.

-David

[AdrianChanWyles]

Southern Praying Mantis: The New Wing Chun.:p ;)

You might be right! After-all, the Cantonese are not originally from the south, but migrated there centuries ago. Basically they are Tang and brought their martial arts southward. They displaced the indigenous Yeuh people - who now populate what is called Vietnam.

And the following article was placed on the HakkaDiaspora site, regarding the latest genetic research into Hakka origins;

'--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a recent study summarized in PubMed. In a recent study of Hakka males, researchers found that the majority of genetic material was from a northern Han gene pool.

Yi Chuan Xue Bao. 2003 Sep;30(9):873-80. Related Articles, Links

[Origin of Hakka and Hakkanese: a genetics analysis]

[Article in Chinese]

Li H, Pan WY, Wen B, Yang NN, Jin JZ, Jin L, Lu DR.

Center for Anthropological Studies at Fudan University, Shanghai 200433, China. LH@cableplus.com.cn

Hakka is a distinctive Han Chinese population in Southern China speaking Hakkanese. The origin of Hakka has been controversial. In this report, we analyzed Y chromosomal markers in 148 Hakka males. Principle component analysis of Y-SNP haplotype distribution shows Hakka is clusteed strongly with the Han in Northern China, and is also close to She, a Hmong-Mien-speaking population, while the general Southern Han is fairly close to Daic populations. Admixture analysis revealed that the relative genetic contribution 80.2% (Han), 13% (She) and 6.8% (Kam) in Hakka. The network of Y-STR haplotype of M7 individuals in all concerned populations suggested two possible origins of Hmong-Mien contribution in Hakka: One is from Hubei and the other is from Canton. The Kam contribution in Hakka is likely from Kan-Yue, the ancient aborigine of Kiangsi (Jiangxi). The frequency of 9bp-deletion in Region V of mitochondrial DNA of Hakka is 19.7%, which is quite close to She but far from Han. We therefore concluded that genetically the majority of Hakka gene pool shall come from North Han with She contributing the most among all non-Han groups. Regarding the Hmong-Mien character of Hakkanese, the genetic structure of Hakka shows their core may be Kim-man, the ancient Hmong-Mien. We hypothesized that a great number of Han people from North China join this population in succession. Southern Chinese dialects, such as Hakkanese may also be those languages of Southern aborigines at first, and turn to extant appearance under the continuance effect of Northern Chinese. '

I think the implications of such scientific research - juxtaposed with Hakka cultural history, whether written or oral, and the research into Hakka names, which ALL originate in the north of China, is tantalising for martial research. The southern Praying Mantis either developed in a cultural vacuum - or it did not. I suspect the latter. Hakka migrated southward, or they did not. I suspect the former.

[AdrianChanWyles]

Adrian,

The same would not apply to my above post because I can qualify it as a member of a HAKKA martial family, run by HAKKA people who have explained to me, IN HAKKA, that some of the 'facts' presented are not consistent with the oral history passed down by my HAKKA predecessors.



A bold, and grossly incorrect statement. Do you practice in 'The West'?. If so, then by your statement, you transmit Chinese arts incompletely.



And when was this claimed? When did anyone say 'ignore' ethnic history of Hakka people when analysing Hakka martial art?



I know plenty of non-Hakka people who are very good at Hakka martial arts. So yes, I would listen to them. It sounds like you are suggesting that only Hakka people should teach/learn Hakka arts.

Even if a person has no experience/knowledge of Hakka language, history or culture, if they have the hands, then they have the hands.



WOW! Your head truely is so far up your own backside. How do you know anything about "what I realise"? As "an academic" surely you realise talking in a vacuum is vacuous!

LOL at the new village idiot....yes, Adrian maybe it's just that I don't realise that there are many hakka people who might even live around me (like my wife, daughter, her family, my sihings, my sidai's, my sisuk/sibaht's, my sigung, all their families, my friends and their families).

I better go and double check...there may be more Hakka people living around me that I haven't realised yet....:eek:

Dear John

Thank you for your contribution. Apologies - did not realise your are Hakka Chinese. From time to time, a good debate clears the mind!

Thanks

[Lam Tong Long]

Dear Adrian,

Let me also apologise for my abrupt tone.

I think it is a good thing that you are trying to strengthen the hakka culture. The website (Hakkadiaspora) is a good one. Interesting reading. I have not had much time for forums of late but have dropped a few quick posts in one section.

For the record I am not hakka chinese - I'm white, british.

I look forward to further dialogue.

Regards

John

[AdrianChanWyles]

Dear Adrian,

Let me also apologise for my abrupt tone.

I think it is a good thing that you are trying to strengthen the hakka culture. The website (Hakkadiaspora) is a good one. Interesting reading. I have not had much time for forums of late but have dropped a few quick posts in one section.

For the record I am not hakka chinese - I'm white, british.

I look forward to further dialogue.

Regards

John

Well, in that case, I must salute your efforts! Of course, communication can become garbled and misunderstandings occur - for instance, your 'Bai San' post (I assume it was your post!) convnced someone there that you were Hakka - of course, you