Lower back exercises.

[Mr Punch]

What are the best?

I still don't have regular access to weights, but I may be able to get it.

Can find pullup bars and the rest is mostly bodyweight...

But any recommendations for strengthening that area would be appreciated.

Cheers.

[Mel]

Hey Mat. I read on the other thread that you slipped a disc. I did the same thing 20 years ago. Wow. This is getting freaky. What are you doing? Living my life from 20 years ago? Don't bother!! It was horrible!! :D

WATCH that slipped disc dude. It's nothing to fool around with. I had to hobble around on crutches for a couple of months. You don't want that.

It might surprise you, but a very good exercise you can do for your lower back is a very low, deep, prolonged horse stance. It's not as "obvious" an exercise for your back as some, but it DOES build strength.

[fa_jing]

Windmills are fruitful in this regard.

[Chief Fox]

Supermans.

Lay down on your stomach with your hands stretched over your head like superman. Lift your legs, arms and as much of your upper body as possible off of the floor. The only thing touching the ground will be your mid section. Hold this pose and do reps.

[Mel]

How interesting that you are such a fan of Don Quixote fa jing.

[Mr Punch]

Hey Mat. I read on the other thread that you slipped a disc. I did the same thing 20 years ago. Wow. This is getting freaky. What are you doing? Living my life from 20 years ago? Don't bother!! It was horrible!! :D
...Ah ****, and I thought it was original... I wouldn't have been doing it if I thought I was reinventing the wheel!:cool:

But yeah, it pretty much sucks **** this time round too!

It's not a slipped disc, but it's the same word in Japanese, and it pretty much equates to a disc that's coming out, but the muscles are strong enough to keep it in place, and then it's causing serious inflamation of the muscles from what I can gather... maybe some kind of hernia.

Anyway, hurts like a mother****er.

I've had it four times since the first damage to that area (first fell out of tree, then aiki breakfall, then hard sparring takedown on concrete, then kungfu exercise, then shooto training...! :eek: ) but have really been training smart since last time and have felt my back getting stronger and stronger (my whole body actually :D )...

but maybe need a few more exercises... usually do supermans, wing chun y stance and horse etc...

what are windmills?

[fa_jing]

Bulging disc, perhaps?

Windmills are where you hold a dumbell, say 50 pounds over your head in one arm, and reach down and touch the floor with the other, then come back up.

scroll down to the middle of both these pages:

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=193

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=646FF24265C4FE06D0BC981E2C E78C4C.titan?id=459681

helps to have instruction here.

[FooFighter]

Lumbarred from Pain-Free Mobility? By Coach Scoot Sonnon
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/23/sonnon.html

Back Mobility Extreme by HeadCoach Doug
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/25/szolek.html

Lower Spine in WW Beginner by Connie, CST
http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/37/brown.html

I hope these articles will help you.

Much Success,
Bao

[Mr Punch]

Thanks chaps.

Bao, thanks but, the first one in Scott Sonnon's article I can just about handle, and I can handle the third one, very very gently, to a certain degree... but the second one...?! No chance in hell!

He's not seriously suggesting being able to do that to help this condition is he?! I just skim-read the article so maybe that 's not what he meant but it makes me scream in pain just thinking about it!

[_William_]

Maybe try isometric ab tensing? Zatsiorsky recommends this in his book, and advises 3-5 second holds, 10-15 times, 3-4 times daily. He also say there should be no stress on the discs when doing this. Hope this helps.

[FooFighter]

Mat,

Thank for looking at the articles I have recommended. Please reread the articles carefully and by no means you are expected to do all the advance materials. Everything in CST/RMAX is progressive. For your own edification, I would recommend that you take a look at Warrior Wellness and BodyFlow to better understand the articles. In my opinion and perspective, it is not only important to "specifically" strengthen your back alone but also to completely recover your mobility. You can specifically strengthen your back but how well can you move it dynamically and functionally? Here are some Circular Strength Training myths that might help you to think about your present condition. I am using myth because it is all a belief system. I am sharing with you my belief system. It is up to you to believe in them or not.

CST Myth 1. Global, local, Global (GLG) perspective.
CST Myth 2. Muscular isolation and linear movement is not possible.
CST Myth 3. Structure, Breathing, Movement (The Holy Trinity)

Myth 1.
Look at your body globally first objectively, then look and examine your weak or painfully site locally (subjectively), then objectively look back at your body globally in relation to the local site to examine how your local site has effect your world (body). Your whole body is interconnected and communicates information to each other much faster than you think. Perhaps there are other sites may have caused your localized weakness/pain specifically? How does the localize site affect the rest of the body? Most people think locally, try if you can to see the greater picture. I am not saying to ignore the local site, but think GLG.

Myth 2.
Instead of thinking linear movements or isolating exercises for your back like hyperextension (superman), please research of ways of "progressively" moving your back in 3 dimensions. I highly recommend visiting a physical therapist, a sport doctor, and/or a certified medical exercise specialist to listen to their opinion and adopt possible preventive and rehab techniques. CST/RMAX does have some tools, which may help you with your recovery. In CST, moving linearly or isolating your back will NOT recover your gross or refine movements of your back. From our perspective we want both strength and mobility, most importantly we want a healthy back. Please do not use bodybuilding or sport specific exercises to rehab or for recovery, but address it from a health related perspective.

Myth 3.
Structure, movement, breathing (the holy trinity). Your back condition can be examine by understanding your own structure, movement, and breathing. Maybe you should research or examine your own holy trinity. I know from my own experience that you probably had poor breathing skills and structural problems that lead to your limited movement in your back. Why? In CST, we understand that breathing plus structure = movement. Therefore, less than optimal breathing skills and poor structure will result in less than optimal movement. This can be understood better if you have a martial arts background or studied a physical discipline like yoga. If this true, then logically you should address your breathing and structure. A good program to help you understand your breathing and structure is RMAX’s “Be Breathe”. I hope my explanation of the three myths will help your recovery and if you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact me.

Yours in CST,
Bao

[Pakmei]

Before you begin to strengthen your back. Best make sure that the inflammation around the vertebral disc's has subsided.... otherwise your only going to re-injure the site.

From a TCM point of view, treatment via acupuncture and tui na massage would benefit you greatly.

The general points prescription would be BL23, GB30, BL36, BL37, BL40, BL57 and BL60..... coupled together with the Ah'Shi points and maybe some HwaTouJiaJi points either side of the spine where the herniation is located to reduce the inflammation and restore the free flow of Qi and blood to the local area.

Cupping (especially moving / walking cupping) will certainly help to relax the back muscles and improve blood circulation.

An important factor here is that you keep the lower back as warm as possible while training, as well as resting and to protect the lower back from cold damp weather conditions and/or environments.

Once you have reduced the inflammation around the vertebral disc's, then you can begin to strengthen your back via exercises such as dorsal raises, static dishes (front and back).

But remember that muscles groups SHOULD ALWAYS be worked in pairs i.e. Back Muscles / Abdominal muscles, Biceps / Triceps, Quads / Hamstrings, etc, etc.

Ideally your back muscles should be twice as strong as your abdominal muscles, as the back muscles are responsible for holding your body erect.

Good luck.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Bao.

I've read it more carefully since.

Myth 1 is a nicely written mindset. I'm sure I can incorporate that into my training/recovery.

Myth 2: I would have never considered such a separation or isolation of muscle groups, so that's not a myth I've ever subscribed to, but thanks anyway.

Myth 3 is completely unapplicable to me. As a martial artist of 15 years exp, and always applying it to everyday life and adjusting my movement and posture patterns along the way, I know my posture and breathing problems are very few. In my case my back problems result from repeated severe trauma;

1) falling 20 ft out of a tree;
2) messing up a breakfall to try and avoid injuring somebody else in my path;
3) hardcore pretty much full contact unprotected sparring ending in receiving a double leg onto concrete and a tree root (that was the worst and the most stupid!)
4) a kungfu exercise (that was a postural problem - momentary lapse of concentration);
5) continued coughing for three weeks due to pneumonia and the onset of asthma.

Thanks also Pakmei, I'm still waiting!... but the swelling has gone. I do always exercise muscle groups in groups, I don't try to isolate, and I am receiving intensive acupuncture (dunno which points but since I'm not doing it to myself, I'm leaving it to the experts!)

What's a dorsal raise, and what's a static dish?

[kung fu goat]

Does your acupuncture doctor do chi gung massage therapy? That would pop the disc back into place, if that is what it is. Dont ever lift weights again. It is a common myth that weights strengthen the body, but really they just put too much stress on the joints and tendons. In the future it will only get worse. You dont have to be physically strong to be the best at martial arts. More internally strong. You need chi gung training and tai chi.

[Mr Punch]

Does your acupuncture doctor do chi gung massage therapy? No, he's a real acupuncturist! :p j/k. But apart from being a qualified doctor and acupuncturist he's a massage therapist trained in centuries-old anma tradition (he's blind - anma is the Japanese name for the blind masseur tradition).

That would pop the disc back into place, if that is what it is.It isn't out of place. Check out the lung thread.

Dont ever lift weights again. It is a common myth that weights strengthen the body, but really they just put too much stress on the joints and tendons.I didn't really lift weights anyway, I find them excrutiatingly boring. But since you're here: properly done weights strengthen the body. Same as kung fu, tai chi, chi kung etc. Improperly done they will damage the body. Same as kung fu, tai chi, chi kung etc.

There are so many myths in the world, and so many myth debunkers I don't knwo how anyone supposedly debunking one can make such a blanket statement about anything that has been such a subject of scientific debate and resulting evidence and expect to be taken seriously.

I would guess you've never really lifted weights either...? What sources have lead you to conclude that about weights?

I know this is pretty ****ty of me to give you grief when you come on the thread trying to help and for that I do apologise, and I do thank you for trying, but I suggest you hang around here and read some of the history on weight training if you have no experience yourself.

You dont have to be physically strong to be the best at martial arts.I didn't say or imply this anywhere. I want my back (and associated muscles in the surrounding areas) to be stronger so I don't get this back problem again. I am on no impossible quest to be 'the best at martial arts' and I know my limits.

But, if you want to be better at martial arts, strength is one of the things it would help to improve. It has been said many times, between people equal in all other attributes strength would be the deciding factor, and it can often give someone the edge over technically better people.

More internally strong.Meaning?

You need chi gung training and tai chi.I do chi kung most days. I tried tai chi in depth, five hours of class per week and two plus hours of private, for three years. It was great but not really me. And again, not really meaning to be a b!tch but if you want to help someone instead of giving out your particular world view you may like to diagnose the situation before jumping to conclusions.

Thanks very much for your time though and cool name! :)

[Mr Punch]

Oh yeah Pak Mei, what's cupping?

[Royal Dragon]

It is a common myth that weights strengthen the body, but really they just put too much stress on the joints and tendons.

Reply]
I don't even know WHERE to begin with a comment like that!!

I have two bulging disks @ L4, and L5. I have found Supermans, and dry land swimming (Not to mention real swimming) To be the bets healers, and strengtheners as of yet.

I do them with wrist and ankle weights, and my goal is to eventually build my lower back to be like a body builder on steriods (Without the roids). I may never acheive it, but the attempt has pretty much given my a pain free existence again. :)

[Pakmei]

Static Dish: is where you lay on the floor ensuring your lower back is firmly against the floor. Lift your shoulders and feet approximately 6" off the floor and hold for about 30 seconds.

Or alternatively lay on the floor stomach down, place your elbows directly beneath your shoulders and lift your body off the floor by tensing your stomach.

Dorsal Raises: Same sort of exercise as what you called "Supermans", but there are many ways and varieties of perfoming this exercise.

Cupping: is therapy where the practitioner creates a vacuum inside a glass cup which then place of either specific points on the back, etc or used as sliding cupping over your oiled back (up and down the Bladder channel).

Works very well for all back type pain, as it creates a deeper massage sensation, where by the vacuum encourages new blood circulation tot he muscle tissue, thus helping the relax them.

[dougadam]

It might surprise you, but a very good exercise you can do for your lower back is a very low, deep, prolonged horse stance.

You should get to the point where you can stand in the horse stance for an hour everyday.

[Mr Punch]

You should get to the point where you can stand in the horse stance for an hour everyday.LOL, you should be my secretary... wanna reorganize my schedule? Some of us have jobs you know!

But seriously, can manage half an hour without trying just washing up/cooking at a low Japanese sink!

And cheers Pak Mei. The cupping is not going to happen. Would be difficult and time-consuming to find a practitioner and get the therapy regularly, when perhaps I could spend better time at the acupuncturist (did I mention he is magical and his clinic is five minutes' walk away from my house? :) ) and exercising.

[TonyM.]

And besides the aforementioned horse stance there are squats.

[Royal Dragon]

Static Dish: is where you lay on the floor ensuring your lower back is firmly against the floor. Lift your shoulders and feet approximately 6" off the floor and hold for about 30 seconds.


Reply]
Ahhh, NO! This will put excessive pressure on the lower back, and actually CAUSE a L4,L5 disk to budge MORE. If you start on your stomach and THEN do it your are good. You need to do back "Extension" exercises. The above compresses the spine and worsens the problem.

[Mr Punch]

Static Dish: is where you lay on the floor ensuring your lower back is firmly against the floor. Lift your shoulders and feet approximately 6" off the floor and hold for about 30 seconds.


Reply]
Ahhh, NO! This will put excessive pressure on the lower back, and actually CAUSE a L4,L5 disk to budge MORE. If you start on your stomach and THEN do it your are good. You need to do back "Extension" exercises.I was wondering about that...
The above compresses the spine and worsens the problem.But a static dish shouldn't compress the spine...

:confused:


BTW, thanks for the tips chaps, do mosyt of these things anyway.

Yet to hear from any weights guys/yoga guys... should have some ideas...?

[Royal Dragon]

Any movement that is like touching ur toes, or like a sit up/crunchie etc... compresses the spine. Anything that arches extends it.

[Toby]

It is a common myth that weights strengthen the body, but really they just put too much stress on the joints and tendons. In the future it will only get worse.Bwahaha! I see things haven't changed much around here ...

[TenTigers]

I have a lower back injury from about 30 years ago and sciatica as a result.
I now have a 'routine' I do each morning before I get out of bed.
1) stretch arms and legs, as if you are on a Rack-on your back like Superman
2) bring both knees into chest (also known as wind release)
3) bring alternate knee into chest, then across to release the spine
4) straight leg overhead stretch=, lower back,hamstrings and sciatic nerve
5) neck-gently stretch forward and to sides and angles forward

this is all while in bed. My feet don't touch the floor until this is performed.
Afterwards, I do Sun Salutation and I'm ready to face the day.
Yik Gun Ging is also very good to add

[Royal Dragon]

TenTigers,
The routine you are doing is why you still have a problem 30 YEARS later. It compresses the spine, and pinches the nerve. When I went to therapy for my inury, I didn't just ask "What" to do, I asked the most unusual of questions... *Why* should I do. I was told to never do exercises like that again because it agrrevates the injury, or at the least prevents it from properly healing because it compresses and congestes the back as a result. You need to roll over on your tummy, and ACRH so the spine is expanded, and the pressure is thus released.

The exercises you are doing are for muscles, not injuries to the back itself. If the spine is dammaged (and it is or you wouldn't have siatica) you have to stretch *IT* back out, not the muscles. The exercises that stretch the muscles COMPRESS the Spine. You have it backwards.

What you need is to see a modle of the human skelital system, and then arch the modle, VS hunch it forward (like bending over). When you see how it pivotes, you will understand how arching the back expands it, and what you do compresses and actualy worsens the problem, or prevents it from healing.

[TenTigers]

I understand what you are saying, but evidently, my back doesn't. Since I have started this regimen, I haven't had any spasms, sciatica , tightness, or pain.
Before doing this, carisoprodol was my savior. Parafon forte was useless, used to pop'em like m&m's with no result, but since doing my bad exercises, I have had no problems, and my flexibility has improved. I will, however look into your methodology as well. Every little bit helps.

[chaiwai]

Any movement that is like touching ur toes, or like a sit up/crunchie etc... compresses the spine. Anything that arches extends it.
I am pretty sure that it is the other way around.
Also the only thing that sure stretches the spine, is hanging from the bar.

[Royal Dragon]

If it helps, then your back isn't all that bad. At least it's not near as bad as mine was anyway.

I am pretty sure that it is the other way around.


Reply]
Nope, it's not the other way around. If you are talking about stretching the MUSCLES out, yes, but the spin expands when arched. If you look at a moveable skelital modle you clearly see this. I actually thought the same as you before my physical therapist showed me different on the modle in his office.

>Also the only thing that sure stretches the spine, is hanging from the bar

Reply]
Well, your part right. yes hanging upside down DOES stretch the spine, but it's not the only sure thing. Supermans, dry land swimming (real swimming too), Hollow rocks, anything that acrhes the back also stretches the spine out. These same exercises COMPRESS the muscles though, as they must contract to arch the back.

Exercises that do this work two fold. One they extend the spine, and two they build and condition the muscles so they better support the weakened spine. My goal is to develope my lower back so it is like a body builder on steriods. Even if I never accomplish the goal, what I will, and already have accomplished has me pain free, and even kicking over my head again...when my doctor told me Therapy would never work, I'd need surgery, and Defenetly would never do Kung Fu again (let alone get back to where I was).

Today, I can do everything I could before, the only real difference is I don't have knock down power with high kicks, I'm not fully as flexible as I was at 28 (not bad considering I'm 37 though :D ), and my cardio isn't as good. Honestly, I think at this point that has alot more to do with lack of practicing them than the injury.

[Pakmei]

Hey there,
Cupping is performed by any and all experienced acupuncturists.... so no need to go out and find a cupping practitioner.... it all comes under the umbrella term of TCM.

In regards to static dish adding excessive stress to the back... if done incorrectly then yes! However, this particular exercise is an isometric exercise that has actually been proven effective scientifically within the sport of gymnastics.

It's all in the body alignment.

The whole point of this exercise is to make sure that the lower spine is FLAT against the floor, to reduce as much stress as possible on the lumbar spine.
Ideally muscle groups should always be worked in pairs i.e abdominals and back muscles.

Obviously, the main exercise for the back is dorsal raises / back extensions, however this exercise is actually compressing the spine and potentially closing the foramen where the nerve roots exits from L4/L5, thus potentially causing more symptoms of 'sciatica' like pain. However, the individual should only do the exercises that he/she feels comfortable to do and as and when the back begins to strengthen up, opt for either increasing the repetitions and/or adding new exercises to his/her repetoire.

Another important aspect here is to make sure that while strengthening the muscles. He/she should also be stretching the muscles and spine as well to make sure that the full ROM (range of movement) is maintained.

[Royal Dragon]

In regards to static dish adding excessive stress to the back... if done incorrectly then yes! However, this particular exercise is an isometric exercise that has actually been proven effective scientifically within the sport of gymnastics.

Reply]
Can you better describe this exercise? The description above clearly describes a big no no for injured backs. Maybe i'm not understanding the exercise itself.

As for gymnastics, most of those girls have very healthy backs, so an excercise of this type would not be an issue. injured backs are another story all together.

[Ronin22]

I just had a double herniation about 4 months ago and the exercises I was told to do were to lay on your stomach and do a push up but keep from your waist down on the floor, just push your upper body up so the back arches and hold for a few seconds. I was doing 30 of these at a time twice a day. Another would be to lay on your back with your knees up and feet flat. Then thrust your hips up leaving your shoulders and feet on the ground while tightening your glutes. I was doing about 30 of these twice a day. I was also doing some wall squats with a big ball behind me; and some twists with a weighted ball held out in front of me. There were some isometrics too like being on your back and bringing one knee up and using the opposite hand of the knee you brought up, push down on the knee but push the knee into the hand so there is resistence, this causes the stomach to contract. Hold for a few seconds then do the other side and continue for 3 sets of 10. There was A LOT of streching, hamstings, calves and the glutes. We started with heat then stretching, exercises, massage, ice, electro stim. Well, that was my expierence for what it's worth. I don't have any pain and have been cleared to go back to the gym.

[Royal Dragon]

That sounds like alot of stuuff they had me do too. Stretching was done with care not to comress the spine though. Warmups were walking backwards on the tred mill for 10 minutes. I found marching kicks useing side kicks, or back kicks to be better for me though.

[Ronin22]

Yeah they did most of my stretching very gently also. The only one I did myself is the standing hamstring strech all the others were done by the PT with me laying on the table.

[Royal Dragon]

Anyone got online pics of Tongzigong? There is a GREAT posture in it to hold if you have back injuries, AND it's a great throw too!