Kung Fu and UFC [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

maximus

10-07-2005, 03:24 AM

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, I apologize if it has...

Can anyone speculate why Kung-Fu has never really been used in MMA championships such as UFC? I know some of the fighters have studied Kung-Fu, however I haven't ever seen much showing of Kung-Fu technique and form. I personally think it has much to do with the incompatibility of the rules of UFC with some of the techniques we use in our art, but I'm curious to know what others think.

This thread isn't meant to be inflammatory, and my intention isn't to start a "who's art is best" argument, I'm just after a discussion on the issue. As a novice of Shaolin Kung-Fu, maybe I can learn something here from the more experienced practitioners.

Sifu Darkfist

10-07-2005, 06:14 AM

Is your first name Glutteous?
just kidding it is an old joke from monty python

really it is the rules that stop us
if we remove eyes or crush the throat in the first strike
it would be gladiator Mr Maximus. this is illegal.

Plus the Ufc is very much like WWF
i dont think we will look good on cam
I know i am ugly and i suspect many mantis brothers are the same (except Shirkers he is the shirtless wonder) unless he falls in rank this year instead of gaining.

Anyway If you have nothing to prove you quit hurting people. If you have a family you shoot first talk about Gung fu later.

wiz cool c

10-07-2005, 02:16 PM

I think the reason is this. The unrealistic training methods. Kung fu has there own contact training skills like push hand and rou shou,style verse style sparring and such. But they hardly ever do it. It seems like its 98% persent forms practice 2% push hands ,rou shou and sparring. The judo people do randori every class the Juijitsu people roll every class wrestlers wrestle ever class. Kung Fu guys need to push every class do rou shou every class ect. I put up a post about free push hands get together every week at my gym where I work. One guy came down once. I know there are at least 15 schools in NYC that teach Internal arts and only one person who wanted to push. If this was an offer to roll for free every week and it was up on the juijitsu forum you would probably see like 20 replys.

Mr Punch

10-07-2005, 02:24 PM

Try (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/search.php?searchid=129553)

these (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/search.php?searchid=129554)

here! (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/search.php?searchid=129556)

Let us know if you discover anything!!!:D ;) :rolleyes:

Sifu Darkfist

10-07-2005, 03:52 PM

My school does 2 man drills, throws, and combat techniques every night.Those students that want to fight in san shou also spar 2 to 3 times a week. so every school is different.

However sport is sport and i make sure they know not to mistake the 2.
san shou, k1, thai boxing, and yes UFC all ==== sport.

Rugby has less protection than American football and can get rougher at times
but it is still a sport.

SiuHung

10-07-2005, 03:59 PM

really it is the rules that stop us
if we remove eyes or crush the throat in the first strike
it would be gladiator Mr Maximus. this is illegal.

Plus the Ufc is very much like WWF
i dont think we will look good on cam

Anyway If you have nothing to prove you quit hurting people. If you have a family you shoot first talk about Gung fu later.

Not a personal attack, but these are some of the lamest reasons ever presented.

1) If you can reach the eyes or throat, then you can certainly restrain yourself to not injure them and must have enough skill to strike an opponent with a fist, palm or whatever. Poor excuse.

2) Who cares how you look when you fight. Silliness. WWF is a lot of acting. UFC fighters aren't acting in the ring. They also don't wear silk jammies and argue about who's lineage is better than who's. Nor do they worry about other's interpretation of techniques and concepts: they concern themselves with skill and being successful in the ring.

3) Better, however, Chinese martial arts lose out when the practitioners of those systems stop fighting and instead make excuses. Fighting isn't for everyone certainly, but the quality of CMA suffers when the martial aspect is minimized or marginalized.

The UFC, and Pride are the big leagues of MMA.
We don't see any pure CMA in them for two reasons. One is that almost no CMA trains full time to fight in the ring under those rule sets. Another is that most CMA people are unable to come to terms with the fact that they would need to address other skill sets not necessarily found within thier system or taught by thier instructor in order to compete in those events.

**** cool c made some good points. There is a very small percentage of CMA's, and really any MA's base of practitioners that actually seek out and engage in combative training and events. For most people, its little more than an exotic hobby. Trying to get people together from different schools for healthy exchanges is difficult because of lack of interest and politics. There are those who are doing this though. There are those who are competing, or at least supporting those that do.

bo_hou_chuan

10-07-2005, 04:27 PM

David Jamieson

10-07-2005, 04:34 PM

sport venues level the playing field.

fighters are matched as closely as possible according to weight and training is geared towards the venue.

In the early UFC's there was a total hodge podge of different fighters using different techniques and through the time until now, the ufc has evolved into what it is according to what is allowed and what works in that venue.

There's guys from all kinds of different disciplines in teh ufc now, but they all are on the same page in regards to what is operable in a ufc ring.

they deal with stand up - clinch- ground.

Anyone is free to adapt their kungfu to meet the reqs of those ranges in the rule set given.

Anyway, because you don't see guys doing jet li poses and throwing high energy jumping crescent kicks doesn't mean no kungfu is at play in the octagon. there are lots of guys who have kungfu backgrounds that have simply adapted their training to fit the venue. There's boxers who had to learn grappling in order to compete, there's wrestlers who had to learn to box and so on. Eventually, the tactics will ****genize to fit the sport.

Face2Fist

10-07-2005, 04:39 PM

dont forget its illegal to use
chi strikes in any MMA match, plus you dont want to show your secret technique passed on to you from you master, who learned it from an old peasant in a mountain near the border of tibet and china.

striking the eyes, throat and twisting fingers are easy when done in 2 man drills, try doing it when you have a guy trying to rip you a new one and coming at you at full speed.

MasterKiller

10-07-2005, 04:44 PM

kung fu = kick, punch, throw, lock

I see kung fu used in the UFC all the time.

Dim Wit Mak

10-07-2005, 05:14 PM

The UFC has the right to make their own rules and do their own thing. There could come a time when the public's thirst for entertainment will take us back to the Roman times of real blood. The new federation to meet this need could be called the World Kung Fu Federation. Only people with charisma and the killer instinct would be allowed. No bland, inarticulate, boring fighters. You wouldn't be able to follow heros for years like a WWF Hulk Hogan, because the life spans would be so short. There would be only one person to enterview after the bout. You would get ultimate reality fighting. There are some who would love to see a nasty concoction thrown in the eyes and then a throat being ripped out. A pipe to the head would thrill many.There would be no rules except one. There are no rules.

SiuHung

10-07-2005, 06:03 PM

Kung Fu teaches you to take the easy way out fighting ie. punch the throat, hit the eyes, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, arm breaks, knee breaks, and other things intent on not allowing your opponent to live out the rest of their life happily. Some of those things are legal in UFC some are not. Can you in good conscious maim another athlet just because they got into a ring against you? I suspect there are few Kung Fu practitioners that could.

So to participate in a ring fight a kung fu practitioner must forget the way they train and revert to punching, kicking, and submission. These three methods to fighting do contain much depth and they take a lot of effort to be very skilled. They are overlooked by a lot of Kung Fu practitioners for the simple fact that they are not essential to their training, we take the easy path.

Come on!
If a kung fu person can get into a position where they could maim another competitor, then surely they could show enough restraint to follow a ruleset! What difference is it between the skills needed to land a strike to the chin, or a poke to the eyes? It's amazing that in this day and age we still have people who think that a kung fu practitioner can't compete because thier stuff is "too dangerous".

If you're trying to suggest that punching, kicking, and submissions are low level and that there's much easier ways to defeat another person, then you must be a representative for the NRA.:rolleyes: A gun would be the easy path.
Otherwise, it takes skill to step into a ring and fight another trained competitor. More so, it provides an opportunity to hone skills that surely will come into play should a person ever truly need to fight for thier life. Also, it demands a level of fitness that surpasses the "CMA for health" crowd's standards.

I'm not trying to advocate MMA, the UFC, or professional level fighting, but some competitive experience or at the very least some hard contact sparring with other martial artists of varying backgorunds is a logical, if not essential part of anyone's training.

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 06:07 PM

bo_hou_chuan

10-07-2005, 07:15 PM

Come on!
If a kung fu person can get into a position where they could maim another competitor, then surely they could show enough restraint to follow a ruleset! What difference is it between the skills needed to land a strike to the chin, or a poke to the eyes? It's amazing that in this day and age we still have people who think that a kung fu practitioner can't compete because thier stuff is "too dangerous".

If you're trying to suggest that punching, kicking, and submissions are low level and that there's much easier ways to defeat another person, then you must be a representative for the NRA.:rolleyes: A gun would be the easy path.
Otherwise, it takes skill to step into a ring and fight another trained competitor. More so, it provides an opportunity to hone skills that surely will come into play should a person ever truly need to fight for thier life. Also, it demands a level of fitness that surpasses the "CMA for health" crowd's standards.

I'm not trying to advocate MMA, the UFC, or professional level fighting, but some competitive experience or at the very least some hard contact sparring with other martial artists of varying backgorunds is a logical, if not essential part of anyone's training.

The point isn't that poking the eyes is easier than hitting, the point is if I take your throat out, you quit fighting. I don't have to worry about following through with more punches. We all know that one punch will end few fights. The moves I train in Kung Fu are meant to end the fight very quickly.

I have used my material in ring fights. It was fun to see how my Kung Fu compared to people that trained in punching, kicking and submission alone.

If you train to end a fight in seconds, the long fights of toe to toe sparring seem like a lot of worthless work. And no matter how good you are, if you want to play by UFC rules you are going have to work hard and get hit.

Unless you look back to the good ol UFC days when anything goes.

SevenStar

10-07-2005, 07:40 PM

really it is the rules that stop us
if we remove eyes or crush the throat in the first strike
it would be gladiator Mr Maximus. this is illegal.

that's not true at all. Does your style not punch? Do you not kick? Do you not lock? Do you not throw? All these things are legal. Heck, the grapplers, can't actually BREAK the limbs, as they would in the street, so they have limitations too. And think about it - If I have you on the ground and under complete control, isn't it easier for ME to eye gouge? allowing eye gouges would only give them more of an advantage on the ground.

Anyway If you have nothing to prove you quit hurting people.

You can always tell people who know nothing about the meaning of competition...

Face2Fist

10-07-2005, 07:41 PM

[I have used my material in ring fights. It was fun to see how my Kung Fu compared to people that trained in punching, kicking and submission alone.

Unless you look back to the good ol UFC days when anything goes.[/QUOTE]

so you got KTFO? one strike fights are rare, its mostly because of sucker punching. try fighting someone drunk or high, if a taser cant stop them you think a strike will? i highly doubt it... remember youre training in a control environment whether you adimit it or not , training in class is controlled youre going at a certain speed and power not going full force...

SevenStar

10-07-2005, 07:43 PM

The point isn't that poking the eyes is easier than hitting, the point is if I take your throat out, you quit fighting. I don't have to worry about following through with more punches. We all know that one punch will end few fights. The moves I train in Kung Fu are meant to end the fight very quickly.

The problem there is that this is easier said than done. When you have someone in front of you with his guard up, body moving, limbs striking and who doesn't want to get hit, small targets like the throat become infinitely harder to hit.

SevenStar

10-07-2005, 07:59 PM

Kung Fu teaches you to take the easy way out fighting small joint manipulation, groin strikes, arm breaks, knee breaks, and other things intent on not allowing your opponent to live out the rest of their life happily.

you will learn these things in any grappling class.

Some of those things are legal in UFC some are not. Can you in good conscious maim another athlet just because they got into a ring against you? I suspect there are few Kung Fu practitioners that could.

Surely you don't think that this is the main reason why kung fu doesn't have good showings at these events...

So to participate in a ring fight a kung fu practitioner must forget the way they train and revert to punching, kicking, and submission. These three methods to fighting do contain much depth and they take a lot of effort to be very skilled. They are overlooked by a lot of Kung Fu practitioners for the simple fact that they are not essential to their training, we take the easy path.

that's funny, the last time I sparred someone and told him to hit me in the throat if he could, he couldn't do it. Considering he was trying to hit such a small target on someone who didn't want to be hit, it seems like his path was much harder. IN THEORY, it is the easy way, but in actual application, it is not. what's wrong with kicking, punching and submission? your styles are supposedly built around ti, da, shuai and na, correct? If you are learning how to apply the principles behind your techniques, you can apply them in any way you choose - the banning of certain target areas should not be a big hinderance.

FatherDog

10-07-2005, 08:04 PM

I have used my material in ring fights. It was fun to see how my Kung Fu compared to people that trained in punching, kicking and submission alone.

When, in what promotion, and who did you fight?

Face2Fist

10-07-2005, 08:07 PM

in some grappling matches certain moves are illegal like neck crank, heel hooks, toe locks, wrist locks because these could cause damage to a fighter, are they trained by the grapplers, yes! but are they used in matches if illegal no!

as for punching, kicking and throwing in kung fu, there are styles that have these techniques, punching WC, CLF, HUNG GAR as for throwing SHUAI JIAO. i m not an expert so i dont know what other style has throwing, punching or kicking

SifuAbel

10-07-2005, 08:42 PM

kung fu = kick, punch, throw, lock

I see kung fu used in the UFC all the time.

correct :cool:

SifuAbel

10-07-2005, 08:56 PM

Kung Fu teaches you to take the easy way out fighting ie. punch the throat, hit the eyes, small joint manipulation, groin strikes, arm breaks, knee breaks, and other things intent on not allowing your opponent to live out the rest of their life happily. Some of those things are legal in UFC some are not. Can you in good conscious maim another athlet just because they got into a ring against you? I suspect there are few Kung Fu practitioners that could.

So to participate in a ring fight a kung fu practitioner must forget the way they train and revert to punching, kicking, and submission. These three methods to fighting do contain much depth and they take a lot of effort to be very skilled. They are overlooked by a lot of Kung Fu practitioners for the simple fact that they are not essential to their training, we take the easy path.

Sorry, but this "easy way out" mentality is not correct. I don't know of any CMA striking style that doesn't have blunt hits. I.E. closed hand punching, back of wrist strikes etc. If you've never been hit in sparrring, guess what, you will go fetal on the first blow.

And what "Kung Fu" do yo study? This is a very specific question. We don't just take "kung fu" as a style.

There must be a Costco somewhere selling "dead horses to beat" at a discount.
It seems we never get to the end with this.

REAL REASON we don't see much CMA people in MMA is simple. CMA people are not driven to those venues by their teachers. Period.

Early UFC was a BJJ promotional video. We don't hear about those few who did go in and do well, Joe Sutton, Onasis etc. But we never hear the end of how a few not so good CMAers did badly.

David Jamieson

10-07-2005, 09:01 PM

There's no such thing as a sucker punch in the ring. Everyone knows exactly what they are doing in square circle. :p

bo_hou_chuan

10-07-2005, 09:28 PM

so you got KTFO? one strike fights are rare, its mostly because of sucker punching. try fighting someone drunk or high, if a taser cant stop them you think a strike will? i highly doubt it... remember youre training in a control environment whether you adimit it or not , training in class is controlled youre going at a certain speed and power not going full force...

No, Bo Hou Chuan is superiour, I won all my fight, but they were against no name local boys. :p

No, I don't think a strike with stop someone, that is why I don't rely on playing tag with my fist. And yes, I train in a controlled environment, but I don't train for a controlled environment.

Sorry, but this "easy way out" mentality is not correct. I don't know of any CMA striking style that doesn't have blunt hits. I.E. closed hand punching, back of wrist strikes etc. If you've never been hit in sparrring, guess what, you will go fetal on the first blow.

You are correct you must train with strikes, but I don't waste my time training to rely on them.

Ring fighting has evolved into a SPORT. Yes, boxers are good at hitting too. Ring fighters are great at ring fighting. But, kickboxing + wrestling does not equal fighting for your survival. I understand that ring fights are as close to real fighting as you can get in a sane world, that is why I tried it. I did it enough to realize I would have to alter my fighting style to get it to comply to sportsmanlike ring fighting.

Face2Fist

10-07-2005, 09:45 PM

[QUOTE=bo_hou_chuan]No, Bo Hou Chuan is superiour, I won all my fight, but they were against no name local boys. :p

No, I don't think a strike with stop someone, that is why I don't rely on playing tag with my fist. And yes, I train in a controlled environment, but I don't train for a controlled environment.

where are you from? where these fight local events?

theres no such thing as training for a uncontrolled environment.. when its a fight anything and everything happens

greensage22

10-07-2005, 09:50 PM

I think it's because a skilled martial artist in cma or jma would never join ufc
because one rule is that you don't fight unless you have to, if you do but don't have to, then you shouldn't use the skills taught to you for life or death
situations. also, the fights would be much more dangerous, and quick.
it's hard to sell tickets to an event that will be done in minutes.

SevenStar

10-07-2005, 09:54 PM

But, kickboxing + wrestling does not equal fighting for your survival.

training in your cushiony kwoon with cooperative opponents does not equal fighting for survival.

Face2Fist

10-07-2005, 09:55 PM

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 09:55 PM

sifuabel,
horray! at least someone remembers my friend and brother joel sutton! he beat the crap out of both his opponents using what he leaened in (yes call it) kung fu and represented our system and teacher.

but of course no one will give kung fu credit for this. But we must remember the UFC was brain stormed and invented by the gracies for a BJJ competition. not MMA abnd surley not other styles.
try entering a MM Artist in a Tuei Sao competition and see how they do. will they compare with the Taji guys?

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 10:00 PM

greensage,
please man I am trying to defend my skilled kung fu brothers out there. we really dont need ridiculous posts like this one and then say.... hey I do kungfu!!!!!!!!!!!

do you say judo katana and numchucks too? oh brother!:confused:

TAO YIN

10-07-2005, 10:00 PM

Seven,

I always dig what you say man, but you need to get over the throat thing. Anyways, at least it's not the whole upper torso now. Doesn't matter, throat (entire neck also including occiptical region, temples, as well as...) strikes still aren't allowed, Jeez, can't even drop an elbow on the neck from mount. So, flying over dead horses...However, I would like to see these added. Eye gouging from mount, SWEET! I always thought it was weird that you can rear that naked choke, but can't bite at the same time, what's up with that? Talk about cauliflower ears that would be. Right......

ha
:eek:

SifuAbel

10-07-2005, 10:04 PM

No, Bo Hou Chuan is superiour, I won all my fight, but they were against no name local boys. :p

No, I don't think a strike with stop someone, that is why I don't rely on playing tag with my fist. And yes, I train in a controlled environment, but I don't train for a controlled environment.
You are correct you must train with strikes, but I don't waste my time training to rely on them.

WTF?!?!?!?! :eek:

SevenStar

10-07-2005, 10:10 PM

but of course no one will give kung fu credit for this. But we must remember the UFC was brain stormed and invented by the gracies for a BJJ competition. not MMA abnd surley not other styles.

the term MMA had not yet been coined back then, so No, it wasn't designed for them.

try entering a MM Artist in a Tuei Sao competition and see how they do. will they compare with the Taji guys?

perhaps - if they trained for it.

EarthDragon

10-07-2005, 10:31 PM

seven

Quote:
try entering a MM Artist in a Tuei Sao competition and see how they do. will they compare with the Taji guys?

perhaps - if they trained for it.

perhaps but I would wager the taiji guys would dominate the circle. however that would not discredit the MMA.

my game my rules will always come out on top.

maximus

10-08-2005, 08:58 PM

OK we have been through this so many times before but here it goes.
rent UFC 6 and 7 my kung fu brother joel sutton won with 8 step praying mantis kung fu. dont get me worng he had to mix up his fighting strategy a litlle but still his training and technques relied on prayingmantis kung fu and he won both of his bouts with it.

Thanks EarthDragon I'll check them out.

Thanks to all who posted here, it's been interesting hearing the differing points of view on what is clearly a sensitive issue.

g0pher

10-09-2005, 05:05 AM

I saw this article in Grappling magazine about Pat Miletech's training methods, and how he trains fighters willing to learn with him. What I read was amazing. Guys came from all over the world to the middle of no where, and begged to train with him. It said most quit after the first day. And for the few that remained they trained every day of the week for 6 to 7 hours a day, gave up their lives (some very successful ones at that), and took up odd jobs around town like being janitors, bartenders, and street cleaners to train with Miletech... These guys give up their lives to train, and they train to fight. They don't train to become better people, or to learn how to mimic something they saw in a Bruce Lee movie. A lot of those guys (in the article) train because they have nothing to go back to at home. You can't beat people like that. I know its a generalization, but thats how it is. Moreover, American society is a Mcdonald's society. We want all of what we see, and we want it fast. Most people generally do not have to emotional make-up to learn Kung Fu for 20 or 30 years, but we all want to be the best at the same time. Grappling is something that is very effective, and can be made to be effective learned in a short amount of time. Grappling arts have come back to stay.

So anyway, if you take kung fu, you have stand up skill, you throw, you know joint locks, and you can fight on the ground. There should be no excuse for a kung fu man to be inferior in technique to a grappler. You possess the same skill. If you think you don't you just need to learn to use them. And you do that by sparring... It comes down to who is more hungry.

SevenStar

10-09-2005, 05:30 AM

Two guys I train with spent a weekend training at his camp - they said it was intense.

johnyk

10-09-2005, 06:04 PM

I just looked at the wutanbrunswik link.
Everyone looks chinese, except for the full contact fighters who are all white.
What's with that?

FatherDog

10-09-2005, 08:37 PM

No, Bo Hou Chuan is superiour, I won all my fight, but they were against no name local boys.

Who were these local boys, and what promotion did you fight in?

So anyway, if you take kung fu, you have stand up skill,

Definitely, if you train it right.

you throw,

In some styles, yah.

and you can fight on the ground.

I'll believe it when I see it.

FuXnDajenariht

10-09-2005, 11:58 PM

lol sh!t....i thought sumone resurrected an old thread.

Sifu Darkfist

10-10-2005, 06:22 AM

that's not true at all. Does your style not punch? Do you not kick? Do you not lock? Do you not throw? All these things are legal. Heck, the grapplers, can't actually BREAK the limbs, as they would in the street, so they have limitations too. And think about it - If I have you on the ground and under complete control, isn't it easier for ME to eye gouge? allowing eye gouges would only give them more of an advantage on the ground.

You can always tell people who know nothing about the meaning of competition...
Actually, I always inform al students including top-notch fighters the limitations of foolish hand fighters. Yes, we kick and punch in the ring like anyone. No, we try to kill in the street without regard. I have trained my whole life with a ground fighter who I grew up with. I have also enjoyed Army hand-to-hand training at the advanced level. The fact is those that rely on controlling the fight on the ground in combat, end up dead. That is why in Wutang they train bodyguards to dispatch on contact or for you to set up you’re your partner to kill (you lose your life in the process). However, some people cannot accept their overall ineffectiveness with hands and feet in the real world.

You people have to calm down it is a fact that you will not beat a bullet. please look to Japan historically, or our own ancestors in the 1900 boxer rebellions. The gun beats IRON BODY. So…. ufc ifc wefc wwf www. ftw or san shou all amount toooo , sport Sport SPORT. Face it… live long and be healthy or as Earth Dragon would say “be well” (not at the far end of a shell).

ps
sorry it took so long to confirm i was coaching fighters etc at a event over the three day weekend

SimonM

10-10-2005, 06:40 AM

I'll believe it when I see it.

My Canadian school trained ground-fighting rather extensively.

Willow Palm

10-10-2005, 07:40 AM

MMA versus CMA....lol... Who cares? Both do what they do and that is that (could I be more vague?)

Here's some advice on how to size it up. Teacher, student, and finally style. A good teacher is first because he/she will lead to all doors that you need opened. Student is second because you must put in the blood, sweat, and tears it takes to do it and do it right. And style is third because it is merely the vehicle you use to get to whatever your destination may be. No style is superior to another. Find a good teacher and train hard. When I first met my previous sifu he said to me,

"Learn to eat bitter."

I love this quote because it encompasses everything that kungfu is to me. As far as who would win a fight, it just depends on [B]EVERYTHING[B]. Speaking of which, I'm off to work out.

Happy Training,
Warren

Ben Gash

10-10-2005, 11:16 AM

I remember Joel Sutton, he was seriously tough.
Why do more KF people not do UFC? MMA attracts a certain type of competitor, and these people tend to be drawn to the more competitive disciplines in the first place.
Also, the early "style on style" UFCs were quite weighted, with some top notch grappling talent and a bunch of has beens and nobodies on the striking front. The only world class stand up fighter I can think of in the first 5 UFCs was Orlando Weit, and he was only a middle weight and lost to a 300lb JJJ fighter, which proved what exactly? Once guys like Vovchanchin came through who could do both well, the format evolved into MMA. So now the guys who do well train for it specifically and have experience standing and on the ground. So you may as well ask "how come more shot putters don't do the 100 metres?"

Becca

10-11-2005, 01:07 AM

SiuHung

10-11-2005, 01:37 AM

On another track... Did you watch this weeks TUF2? The fighter for the green team was using some very traditional techniques such as distracting his opponant from getting a triangle choke by slapping his face with the trapped arm. That was perfectly leagal and very much a common stratagy in any traditional cirriculem.:cool:

I did see that. Nice.:)

SevenStar

10-11-2005, 08:06 PM

Actually, I always inform al students including top-notch fighters the limitations of foolish hand fighters. Yes, we kick and punch in the ring like anyone.

This being the case, modifying your techniques for the ring should be easy enough, right?

No, we try to kill in the street without regard. I have trained my whole life with a ground fighter who I grew up with. I have also enjoyed Army hand-to-hand training at the advanced level. The fact is those that rely on controlling the fight on the ground in combat, end up dead. That is why in Wutang they train bodyguards to dispatch on contact or for you to set up you’re your partner to kill (you lose your life in the process). However, some people cannot accept their overall ineffectiveness with hands and feet in the real world.

Not really. that's just as big of a misconception as the grapplers who say that ALL fights end up on the ground. I've been in fights that ended up on the ground, and recently posted my account of the most recent one that happened at a bar I work at. I lived to tell about it... That said, I don't advocate immediately going to the ground, but in some instances you can't help it, and in others, it is actually the best option.

You people have to calm down it is a fact that you will not beat a bullet. please look to Japan historically, or our own ancestors in the 1900 boxer rebellions. The gun beats IRON BODY. So…. ufc ifc wefc wwf www. ftw or san shou all amount toooo , sport Sport SPORT. Face it… live long and be healthy or as Earth Dragon would say “be well” (not at the far end of a shell).

and you people have to realize that the "traditional" moniker doesn't automatically equate to super lethal. FWIW, it's TaiChiBob that says "be well"

sorry it took so long to confirm i was coaching fighters etc at a event over the three day weekend

awesome. Which event?

Mortal1

10-11-2005, 08:57 PM

That guy on the ultimate fighter Luke is a total kungfu guy. He pounded that Bjj guy. I haven't heard anything about that on the forums. They even had like a horse stance contest and he outlasted everyone of those muscleheads.

MasterKiller

10-11-2005, 09:01 PM

Luke Cummo trains here:

http://www.raylongomartialarts.com/about.html

ShaolinTiger00

10-11-2005, 09:07 PM

NeedsPractice

10-11-2005, 10:04 PM

1. In mma the athletes in there practice and perform the techniques and styles that will give them the highest percenatage of Winning.
2. THey also practice and train at a high intensity in a more concentrated area.
3. Aolt of the training in kung fu is 1- diverse ( culture,philisophy, health plus the striking etc) and 2- in some things that could take along time to be effective if you ever get it right
The average martial arts practitioner ( kung fu,karate whatever)doesnt train in a way that will give him a good chance of winning a mma fight or a muay thai fight.

Forget about the rules of mma,
how many martial arts schools spend the entire class , every class just doing conditioning and combination drills for fighting?
To perform like a professional fighter you have to train like one it doesnt matter what style you use.

Imagine you trained in the manner of a professional fighter (your particular style) all the time.

David Jamieson

10-11-2005, 10:07 PM

http://www.raylongomartialarts.com/jameschios.html

Nice gi. What kind of staff is that?:D :p

Sifu Darkfist

10-11-2005, 11:14 PM

seven star said "This being the case, modifying your techniques for the ring should be easy enough, right?"

my students are in the ring my comment was that being god in the ring is not the end all.

they need to understand the limitations of those fool enough to fight with their hands as i said.

i dont advocate fighting with hands use a knife or better yet a gun then there are no more "uh what if he has a weapon" doesnt matter if he has a weapon if someone attacks me for whatever reason outside the sport or controlled agreed contact i consider it my life or theirs. that is why hand fighters are foolish cause i consider all situations (now that i am grown with a family) deadly situations and i will shoot them.

god gave of minds for innovation, im sure the army dont decide to go into battle using wwII weapons just becasue they train with one in their spare time why would anyone actually fight in real life with their hands? (excluding those young and dumb as i was once and fought who knows close to a hundred fifty times? god d++n i hurt now and thank god im still alive)

hitman142002

10-11-2005, 11:58 PM

In the first editions of the UFC there were a LOT more "fighters" than there were grapplers. Check out the very first UFC and you will see a guy lose a tooth (spinning off into the crowd) to a roundhouse kick. However, the BIG thing about the UFC that sort of "discriminates" against stand up fighters is that the UFC is one-on-one. Throw all of those fighters into a ring at once and see how long the grappler lasts when he goes into a lengthy clench. This is why grappling (without any other means of self defense) is less usefull in the real world than it is in the UFC...Mr Billy Bad-A$$ at the local Bruiser Bar picks a fight- you grapple him into a submission hold and convince him the error of his ways. But what if Billy has 3 friends waiting around the other side of the pool table? You will be down on the ground while his buddies kick and pummel you mercilessly.
UFC is ABOUT the best we can get to a "true street fight" without setting up a Gladiator Arena...however, it is set up to favor a particular KIND of fighter. I will almost guarantee that even the grapplers in the UFC have some other training as well as grappling training, though. So, you may wanna check out some of their Bios and see if they have a background in Kung Fu...

SevenStar

10-12-2005, 01:07 AM

NeedsPractice

10-12-2005, 01:40 AM

Professional even amatuer level fighters train at a higher intensity level, longer workouts, more repetitions etc.
In other words alot of martial artists arent training enough to be able to pull off some of the stuff they want to pull off.
How many times does a boxer practice combo x so that at just the right moment he can pull it off, with speed, power and accuracy?
I dont believe the UFC/mma question is really about rules or gloves etc, its about practice, and intensity particularly if you are in a situation against a serious committed attacker.
Are people training hard to beat the average out of shape, non trained person or training hard enough to deal with someone in shape with at least as much training as you , and as much maybe more committment to hurt you?

SimonM

10-12-2005, 02:43 AM

THAT'S IT! Let's set up a gladiatorial arena somewhere and solve these bloody questions once and for all. :D

Ou Ji

10-12-2005, 03:07 AM

i dont advocate fighting with hands use a knife or better yet a gun then there are no more "uh what if he has a weapon" doesnt matter if he has a weapon if someone attacks me for whatever reason outside the sport or controlled agreed contact i consider it my life or theirs. that is why hand fighters are foolish cause i consider all situations (now that i am grown with a family) deadly situations and i will shoot them.

I see comments like this a lot but, not picking on you personally, how many carry a gun or knife everywhere they go?

Obviously you can't predict when you will be attacked in the street so you would have to carry all the time. So what do peeps in California, New York, New Jersey and other states that don't support concealed carry do?

People are a little too quick to say use a gun. The majority of the population does not have a gun readily accessible at any given time. And even if you are licensed what will you do if you happen to be visiting in NY or DC?

For that reason alone it's a good idea to be able to fight with your body weapons alone.

SimonM

10-12-2005, 08:24 AM

Sifu Darkfist

10-12-2005, 02:32 PM

"Apparently Sifu Darkfist carries heat wherever he goes.

Then again Sifu Darkfist says lots of stuff. :cool: "

I do not understand when this became a place for personal attacks lol
but i let you have your fun. Truth is i do period no questions no b s. but it is understandable if you dont take my word for it.

Also i thought forums were for saying things? otherwise why even come here. we come to say and listen. with debate we attack issues not people. if you dont agree with me on the gun thing just go to jetli.com he agrees entirely.

it is not my first choice it is reality. i wish there was no violence i wish people could never die and leave children and wives behind. This wish will never come true I wont be that guy if i can help it.

Wong Fei Hong

10-13-2005, 07:50 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm,
I honestly reckon that the reason that kung fu doesnt enter in the ufc is because of the type of person who does kung fu and the type of person who does crosstrain.

Lets face it you were born to eat 3 raw chickens a day look like a kkk/neonazi and ride around barefoot on a harley, on top of that the only reason you dont carry a weapon is because you ENJOY beating people with your bare fists.

Now on the other hand you take a skinny 120 pound guy who wears glasses and he wants to defend himelf WITHOUT contact who bullies never picked on because they felt sorry for him.

Which one do you reckon goes for the art which teaches him how to maximise his peacefulness lead a different way of life find internal peace and look cool whilst doing it just like in the movies (using chi power may i add)

And which one will go to the school which says the only thing you cant do is kick people in the balls bite and eye gouge?

By the time the nerd is able to fight , he is too happy that he has achieved something so he goes and opens a school, by which time he is over 40. Why the hell would he want to go and look like fred ettish.

On the other hand you take a guy who is hard as nails already and subject him to ONLY studying kung fu and he will be just as good as guys who cross train, practise muay thai etc.

Look at andy hug, karate guy he even won the k-1 against muay thai guys, without training muay thai.

did i just get drawn into the trolling :eek:

BeLikeWater

10-13-2005, 11:47 AM

Lets face it you were born to eat 3 raw chickens a day look like a kkk/neonazi and ride around barefoot on a harley, on top of that the only reason you dont carry a weapon is because you ENJOY beating people with your bare fists.

Now on the other hand you take a skinny 120 pound guy who wears glasses and he wants to defend himelf WITHOUT contact who bullies never picked on because they felt sorry for him.

Which one do you reckon goes for the art which teaches him how to maximise his peacefulness lead a different way of life find internal peace and look cool whilst doing it just like in the movies (using chi power may i add)

And which one will go to the school which says the only thing you cant do is kick people in the balls bite and eye gouge?

By the time the nerd is able to fight , he is too happy that he has achieved something so he goes and opens a school, by which time he is over 40. Why the hell would he want to go and look like fred ettish.

lol

I think this is one of the best answers to this age-old topic that I have ever heard.

Jason Martell

10-14-2005, 09:50 AM

Not a personal attack, but these are some of the lamest reasons ever presented.

1) If you can reach the eyes or throat, then you can certainly restrain yourself to not injure them and must have enough skill to strike an opponent with a fist, palm or whatever. Poor excuse.

2) Who cares how you look when you fight. Silliness. WWF is a lot of acting. UFC fighters aren't acting in the ring. They also don't wear silk jammies and argue about who's lineage is better than who's. Nor do they worry about other's interpretation of techniques and concepts: they concern themselves with skill and being successful in the ring.

3) Better, however, Chinese martial arts lose out when the practitioners of those systems stop fighting and instead make excuses. Fighting isn't for everyone certainly, but the quality of CMA suffers when the martial aspect is minimized or marginalized.

The UFC, and Pride are the big leagues of MMA.
We don't see any pure CMA in them for two reasons. One is that almost no CMA trains full time to fight in the ring under those rule sets. Another is that most CMA people are unable to come to terms with the fact that they would need to address other skill sets not necessarily found within thier system or taught by thier instructor in order to compete in those events.

**** cool c made some good points. There is a very small percentage of CMA's, and really any MA's base of practitioners that actually seek out and engage in combative training and events. For most people, its little more than an exotic hobby. Trying to get people together from different schools for healthy exchanges is difficult because of lack of interest and politics. There are those who are doing this though. There are those who are competing, or at least supporting those that do.

actually I was just reading the other day, how the UFC was almost banned completely, and because of politics they added a bunch of rules to the fight, and they try to mostly recruit muathui(I cant' spell it), taekwondo, jujitsu, wrestling, boxing, style fighters.

what you said about the rules. in your first paragraph. The fact of the matter is, just because they are allowed to use some of their skills, doesn't mean they aren't being held back. If you were to tell a taekwondo practicioner, no front kicks to the stomach, wouldn't that kind of lessen his ability to fight? even though if he can reach the stomach he should be able to use a different kick? It's true. A lot of martial artists train to turn a threatening person into a nonthreatening person as quickly as possible so they don't have to hit them over and over again, and get hit over and over again. That's not how you fight in the UFC. It's mainly knockouts and submission moves. IN self defense you fight differently, and that's what martial arts were intended for. Mainly purposes of war. Subdue the enemy as fast as possible.

SifuAbel

10-14-2005, 11:10 AM

On the other hand you take a guy who is hard as nails already and subject him to ONLY studying kung fu and he will be just as good as guys who cross train, practise muay thai etc.

Look at andy hug, karate guy he even won the k-1 against muay thai guys, without training muay thai.

Thank You. Its only a matter of time

SifuAbel

10-14-2005, 11:19 AM

If I hear ONE more CMA person use the words eye gouge or throat strike in way other than a complaint I am going to seek them out and plant contraband in their suit case and calll the cops. CMA has a world to offer other than this.

There are many top strikers that don't do MT. TMA is always in UFC. Whether its being given credit or not. Its really the cool factor that dictates what the announcers say about the fighters. Chuck Liddel is a kempo stylist, but now he is a "kickboxer". Go figure.

To paraphrase and at the same time butcher a phrase from Niche, "the masses outnumber the famous by a 100 million to one."

FatherDog

10-14-2005, 07:45 PM

Chuck Liddel is a kempo stylist, but now he is a "kickboxer". Go figure.

Chuck Liddel /is/ a kickboxer, because he's competed in kickboxing. He's also a Kempo stylist, and I don't think I've ever seen him fight where the announcers didn't mention that at least once.

Wong Fei Hong

10-14-2005, 10:14 PM

I tottaly agree with sifu abel the eye gouge throat attack thing is quite gay. If the whole of tma revoles around hitting throat eyes and scrot then i think that we need to rethink why we do a traditional martial art we might as well just learn to kick people in the balls .

On THe other hand most people will say we dont train to hurt :rolleyes: ) thats why BUT all of our moves revolve around crippling the opponent if a fight over a spilt beer breaks out :p hence why we learn to blind someone for life over a spilt beer and this is the only technique we know
Yes this is gay im sure if you are good enough whilst chuck liddell is going at you at 400 miles an hour pounding your brain out of your ears to be able to actually HIT him in the EYEBALL im sure you could do a hell of a lot of other moves and not whine about not being able to poke him in the eye.

g0pher

10-17-2005, 04:38 AM

Guns are expensive... Very expensive. To say you would shoot someone if they threatened your life is ridiculous. Do you have any idea what it takes to shoot someone? To end someones life? Guns bring speed of death. Can anyone fathom being thrown in prison for the rest of your life because you carry something like a gun that brings speed to death. When you fear something with the utmost intensity you are not thinking in your sane mind. Sometimes not even the best of us. So you look for the quickest solution to calm the fear. The gun. You shoot someone. They die. You go to prison for the rest of your life. Guns are stupid. People with guns are stupid. To say you would shoot someone if they threatened your life is stupid. Human and guns are unnatural.

We've learned nothing from Gandhi. We'll never learn anything as a society. Herd mentality, and animal spirits we all are.

**Only directed at people who say they would use a gun to solve all threats to their life**

Ou Ji

10-17-2005, 05:05 AM

**Only directed at people who say they would use a gun to solve all threats to their life**

And WHO says they would use a gun to solve ALL threats? I carry a gun for the threats that require that level of response as I'm sure most other do as well.

And as for Chuck Liddel bieng a Kenpo guy and fighting UFC rules that's definitely a contrast. My experience with Kenpo is filled with eye, throat, and groin attacks. Those are favorite targets in Kenpo yet Chuck manages to supress those rules when he enters the Octagon. Interesting.

Becca

10-18-2005, 01:52 AM

... if you are good enough whilst chuck liddell is going at you at 400 miles an hour pounding your brain out of your ears to be able to actually HIT him in the EYEBALL im sure you could do a hell of a lot of other moves and not whine about not being able to poke him in the eye.
Ooooooo.... Found a new quote.:cool:

WFH is also quite correct. It is much easier to punch at an opponant that to poke 'em in the eye.:eek: :D

phantom

10-25-2005, 09:58 PM

Some observations I have made: If kung fu is so easy, then why do styles like tai chi, pa kua, Hsing-I, and white crane take over 10 years to reach the higher levels in? I am sure that some guys are taking jobs as bartenders and janitors to train with Pat Miletech. However, I wonder how they are able to keep such jobs, as is pretty much inevitable that you will get injured every now and then when you are doing a martial sport? What if you have a wife and kids to support?Concerning guns, you cannot totally control the amount of damage you inflict on someone when using it. I remember a state trooper in Pennsylvania once died as a result of getting shot in the leg and the bullet then went to his heart. Here in the United States, I believe it is illegal to carry a gun everywhere you go, even if you do have a license to carry it. And how do you prevent an innocent bystander from getting shot if you do have to use it? Food for thought.

Ray Pina

10-25-2005, 10:35 PM

Mixed martial arts or fighting that allows punches, knees, elbows, kicks, throws and ground and pound is very tough .... that's why you don't see Kung Fu guys in there or 97% of guys who train MMA either. It's not for everyone. Those that have a fighters mind set, today, would probabaly be more easily attracted to MMA. Because that's what's proved to work there.

I think that's the most honest asnwer to your question.

Rfonner

10-26-2005, 03:47 AM

Apparently Sifu Darkfist carries heat wherever he goes.

Then again Sifu Darkfist says lots of stuff. :cool:

I do know how to handle a knife. I like knives. I usually don't carry one though.

I don't use guns. I don't particularly like guns. I wish most places were as progressive as China and put severe limitations on who could own a gun.

I like my fists. I have a great level of control over strenuousness of response with my fists. Guns don't give you that.

I DO carry "heat" whever I go..as so does my wife. I also know how to handle a knife, but why would I when I have a gun? Oh, and we have concealed weapons permits.

Simon...you actually stand by the foolish and uneducated comment that you wish more places were as progressive as China? What a laugh. Ask the family of the student the Tank rolled over for attempting to exercise FREE SPEECH. Have you ever been to China? Stupid of me to ask...If you have actually ever visited the country...you would have NEVER made that statement...Thank god in this country you can make make that statement.

I also like my fists. I like them even more when they are wrapped around my GUN protecting me and my family from any fool that would try to harm us.

Good day sir.

Juan Alvarez

10-26-2005, 06:44 AM

LOL @ Rfonner!!!

Apparently you haven't been following SimonM's blog on the other thread!

Juan :D

Ford Prefect

10-26-2005, 06:53 PM

lol @ being progressive like China. Had to be a joke. Funny stuff.

Shaolinlueb

10-26-2005, 07:18 PM

kung fu = kick, punch, throw, lock

I see kung fu used in the UFC all the time.

exactly MK. kung fu even has ground fighting. a lot of the techniques can be found in kung fu. jsut cause they are not the run of the mill kung fu doesnt mean it isnt kung fu.

and the too deadly for ring only holds up so much. but yes clawing, eye gouging, groin shots arent allowed. they are trying to have a sports match up, not duel to the death.

SimonM

11-01-2005, 12:17 PM

LOL @ Rfonner!!!

Apparently you haven't been following SimonM's blog on the other thread!

Juan :D

Yup, I'm a commie-friendly socialist from the great white north, happily planted in the PRC and loving it.

warriormonk

11-02-2005, 03:28 AM

Mixed Martial Arts has caused martial arts to evolve more in the last 10 years than it has in the past couple hundred years. You are now able to find what works in a fight and what doesnt. The reason that most TMA's dont participate in mma is that they are not well rounded enough to to be totally effective. You may be the best **** TKD guy that ever lived and if you cant stop at least one take down from a olypis caliber wrestler than you are taken out of your comfort zone and all your TKD is up the creek. On the flip side of that You can be the best **** jiu-jitsu guy that has ever walked the earth and if you cant defend a boxers combination you are S.O.L.

The whole point of this long rambling is that Mixed Martial Arts is a style unto it own a complete system of standing clich and ground work that you can find. No it cant defend you from a gun or a knife but neither can 99% percentile of all the TMA's. But if you take the best TMA artist alive today in the whole world and you put Wanderlie Silva across form him and you put them in a ring hell put them on the street and i know who my money is going to be on.

Just my two cents.

Wong Fei Hong

11-02-2005, 03:17 PM

Ford Prefect

11-02-2005, 04:32 PM

You're so right. MMA doesn't help much against 4 knife-wielding thugs. Good point.

Shaolinlueb

11-02-2005, 08:27 PM

You're so right. MMA doesn't help much against 4 knife-wielding thugs. Good point.

neither does kung fu for all these so called master out here on the board. :rolleyes:

Wong Fei Hong

11-03-2005, 01:51 AM

My point wasnt that a kf guy could or couldnt do it, but being paid a years wages for a normal person, and having half the population of people who watch mma know who you are, my point was i wouldn't have expected this to occur. Wether to be able to avoid the fight or incapacitate the opponents. You expect more from a world class fighter.

Also depends how you look at it, you are standing outside a club and 4 average guys come up to you a scuffle starts and you get knived.

Or 4 240 pound guys all armed with knives each grabbed one of his limbs and proceeded to incapacitate him and then knifed him.

Also what i find funny is how most ppl wet themselves over how dangerous kung fu is , and good on the street, and how mma wouldnt work on the street, but when this occurs, ppl turn around and say but if it was kung fu you wouldnt be able to defend against 4 attackers.

Hmmmm so why do most ppl practise kung fu since now weve changed the subject to not only , kung fu isnt good for mma competitions as its too deadly, BUT also TO: it wouldnt work on the street against more than one opponent ??? is it because it looks good in movies and you find inner peace .
Zen knitting anyone ?

In all seriousness if i couldnt defend myself on the street against more than one attacker, then i would sign up at the closest sport fighting gym overnight. Cause if kf doesnt work in mma and doesnt work on the street then i think we have a slight problem.

Ford Prefect

11-03-2005, 04:33 PM

Wow. .......

FatherDog

11-03-2005, 08:50 PM

My point wasnt that a kf guy could or couldnt do it, but being paid a years wages for a normal person, and having half the population of people who watch mma know who you are, my point was i wouldn't have expected this to occur.

Then you are stupid and naive. No matter how good you are, if you face four guys with knives, odds are good you'll be visiting the hospital.

Jason Martell

11-04-2005, 12:29 AM

Come on!
If a kung fu person can get into a position where they could maim another competitor, then surely they could show enough restraint to follow a ruleset! What difference is it between the skills needed to land a strike to the chin, or a poke to the eyes? It's amazing that in this day and age we still have people who think that a kung fu practitioner can't compete because thier stuff is "too dangerous".

If you're trying to suggest that punching, kicking, and submissions are low level and that there's much easier ways to defeat another person, then you must be a representative for the NRA.:rolleyes: A gun would be the easy path.
Otherwise, it takes skill to step into a ring and fight another trained competitor. More so, it provides an opportunity to hone skills that surely will come into play should a person ever truly need to fight for thier life. Also, it demands a level of fitness that surpasses the "CMA for health" crowd's standards.

I'm not trying to advocate MMA, the UFC, or professional level fighting, but some competitive experience or at the very least some hard contact sparring with other martial artists of varying backgorunds is a logical, if not essential part of anyone's training.

The whole point isn't that they can't obey the rules of the ring. It's that they can't win without breaking those rules. It puts them at a disadvantage, because they train for a different situation. The UFC is like full contact friendly sparring. Half of the Jujitsu moves you see in there, the guy winning is totally setting himself up for an eye gouge attack.

Jason Martell

11-04-2005, 12:34 AM

In response to the last post, there is a guy called lee murray he competed in the ufc once but was a top contender in uk mma competitions, and unfortunately he was attacked whilst outside a night club in london by a group of 4 guys they attacked him and whilst the scuffle was occuring, he was stabbed and was in near critical condition for a few days, thankfully he is better now.
Not to point and go HA HA told you so , but just like how most kung fu guys are surprised when faced with the way a boxer doesnt move the way you expect compared to your kf sparring mates, i believe the same thing happened here, for someone who is used to grappling and hitting without blocking, when faced with a knife none of this works if you dont know how to control the arm and use a simple kick.
Also ive seen people do some 2vs1 sparring, and as you dont want to hit the guy so hard his ass starts bleeding, a lot of times the 2 guys close in and take the other guy down, now no amount of bjj mma , being helio gracie or kimura is gonna save you when your trying to fight 1 guy on the ground with another kicking your head in, or even 2 guys on the floor at once.
Maybe if your gene lebell :confused: he once had a cover of a book of his where he ties up 2 guys on the floor one wiht arm locks and the other with leg locks :D

I agree with everything you said there. And in my own experience I studied TKD a while. I'm not even a blcakbelt, but anyways, I eventually started sparring my friends, who were had not training at all. Some of them were pretty good street fighters though. But anyways I totally felt the confusion of not being used to fighting a different kind of fighter I wasn't used to. I felt totally taken by surprise by the fact, that they would get in so close. But I kept doing it once a week with those guys, and eventually I was able to win against all of them, except for my one friend who was a very good street fighter, and another one of my friends who has like a foot and a half taller than me.

Wong Fei Hong

11-04-2005, 08:45 AM

Jason im glad you know what i mean, cause i would get that too when sparring diff stylists, but at the same time there were some people who hadnt trained who you would be like omg this person is so normal! I coudln't dream of sparring him he probably couldnt even put up resistance i might hurt him with a look !

Then you are stupid and naive. No matter how good you are, if you face four guys with knives, odds are good you'll be visiting the hospital.

Thanks fatherdog no offence taken :D

My point here is that i believe that one way or another its not impossible to avoid disaster, firstly like i said i dont think it was 4 guys all with knives, plus we dont know the scenario,
if you have 4 guys who are just yobs coming up to you and you start a rough and tumble and someone pulls a knife its different from being surrounded by 4 trained or hard guys who all have knives.

Also my point is that in a kf school you learn things that, would help you other than just lets fight, awareness for one, if i saw 4 guys with knives coming up to me and i was standing outside a club i know for sure i wouldnt dive headfirst into them. I would look at my options and see what is happening around me where the bouncers are , maybe get back in the club etc

Lastly if you believe that 1 person taking on 4 is unbelievable, then i think we might as well scrap the whole concept of every martial art ever written and just stick to bodybuilding and bashing heads in. I know personally people who have been attacked by over 4 guys and got out in one piece both who did martial arts and who didnt.

FatherDog

11-04-2005, 07:48 PM

My point here is that i believe that one way or another its not impossible to avoid disaster, firstly like i said i dont think it was 4 guys all with knives, plus we dont know the scenario,

Actually, those of us who actually paid attention to the news stories about it do know the scenario. A mass brawl broke out in the nightclub Murray was in. As he attempted to exit the club, he was set upon by four people and stabbed repeatedly in the chest. Two other club patrons were also knifed.

Also my point is that in a kf school you learn things that, would help you other than just lets fight, awareness for one,

I've never seen a kung fu kwoon that taught situational awareness worth a ****, frankly. Or, for that matter, a TKD dojang, karate dojo, or MMA gym. A very few JKD places I've seen have had situational awareness exercises; most weren't that good. If you want to learn awareness, take a police course for citizens.

if i saw 4 guys with knives coming up to me and i was standing outside a club i know for sure i wouldnt dive headfirst into them. I would look at my options and see what is happening around me where the bouncers are , maybe get back in the club etc

Maybe get back into the riot where two other people were knifed? Good plan.

Lastly if you believe that 1 person taking on 4 is unbelievable, then i think we might as well scrap the whole concept of every martial art ever written and just stick to bodybuilding and bashing heads in. I know personally people who have been attacked by over 4 guys and got out in one piece both who did martial arts and who didnt.

I never said that one person taking on four is unbelievable; I said that if one unarmed person faces four people with knives, odds are very good the one person will be going to the hospital, no matter what his training is. Even if he wins or escapes, this is true. To think otherwise is, as I said, stupid and naive.

Wong Fei Hong

11-05-2005, 12:03 AM

The reason i said we dont know the scenario is because WE DONT, i dont know anyone who was there and everyone has a different story, i find it wrong to speculate on how he reacted because no-one knows how they would react.
Thats also why i said in my first post
my point was i wouldn't have expected this to occur. Wether to be able to avoid the fight or incapacitate the opponents. You expect more from a world class fighter.

I followed the story both in the sfuk forums where people who had visited him in hospital were posting, and from the newspapers.

this website quotes
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4153/is_20050929/ai_n15650724
that "Lee was trying to stop a fight between a group of men when he was stabbed. His two friends are still in hospital, but they are not in a bad way like Lee."]

http://www.tapper.tv/News/article/sid=70.html
Whereas the sun quotes "...the cage fighter stabbed at a page 3 party has an underworld contract on his head. Lee Murray 28, is said to have angered one of Britains leading gang families.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16186784&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=fists--feet--knives-and-lots-and-lots-of-blood--name_page.html

About your awareness statement, im in shock that you have never visited a class of any of those lessons that didnt adress self defense and awareness.

Actually, those of us who actually paid attention to the news stories about it do know the scenario. A mass brawl broke out in the nightclub Murray was in.
I dont know what news stories you followed so well but all three of the above newspapers from the uk quote that it all happened outside the club.

As for your last statement i really dont know what to say, i think its such a specialised case, ive seen people i could arm with knives and i wouldnt be scared to go near them, and ive seen people who i would run a mile from without knife.

The point of the post is not an attack at ufc mma saying oh look they cant fight on the street, more of what if all the people who do trad for the street how would they have reacted.

NeedsPractice

11-07-2005, 04:37 AM

Bottom line alot ( maybe most) kung fu people dont train for full contact matches
(the endurance, and the body conditioning to take hits and keep going).And they dont train to practice thier art under the given rules either. whether it be mma, ufc, k1 or muay thai.
It can be very hard to do good in something you have no preparation for.
Meaning having good striking and chin na/schaio chiao skills and being able to use them under pressure against a mma guy used to active resistance versus using your skills on somebody who is NOT expecting them ( self defense) and HOPEFULLY cant deal with them effectively.