Chi Sao video with some tips

[edward]

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac1.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac2.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac3.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac4.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac5.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac6.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac7.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac8.mpg

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac9.mpg



They are generally between 3 to 6 mb's in size.

Mainly the videos are of me and Phil, chi saoing, basically he
attacks and I block. I've been trying to work on patience in his
attacking and more selectivity in the process. Thus, some of the
things I suggest is block and select from 3 different attacks to
feel and look for when the opportunity arises. That being, pak and
punch, lop and punch, and por jong. The reason for these attacks
are these are two hand attacks, meaning one control the other
attack, as opposed to punch, palm, and huen sau. In addition the
problem I feel when you give students such a huge buffet of attacks
to choose from they end up with hesitation in what to do and when to
do it.

In addition to that, I was working on his aggressiveness of attack
and speed of attacking. But like everyone else at one point, the
faster the chi sao goes, tension also arises. So i told him to watch
for wrist tension and when he does any attacks make sure the attack
releases the full motion so he can go from one attack to another.

If you watch video also, notice Phil moves his feet, but yet they
aren't done to complement his hands. Something of unity that needs
to still be practiced, but at the very least he is in fact moving
his feet, which people have a hard time doing.

I'll post more on this later
_____ :)

[Fajing]

Nice clips Edward!!! :)

[Ali Rahim]

:) I love your post also Edward!!!

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

________________________________________________

Jihad is part of this overall defense of Islam… Jihad means to struggle to the utmost of one's capacity… A man who exerts himself mentally or physically or spends his wealth in the cause of God is indeed engaged in Jihad… but in the language of the Divine Law,, This word is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate as enemies of Islam…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[edward]

Been busy and a pinch of lazy posting some stuff. Glad, you guys enjoyed it.

[Ali Rahim]

Edward I have to give you guys kudos for having posted some dam good chi sao. I saw lots of good stuff -- like good structure, rooting, elbows not collapsing, fluidity of motion, proper bridge distance, control
of the fighting line as well as something you don't see to often--good sinking energy (chum) application.

At first I had to look closely because I though the guy in white was Augustine Fong, one of the true wing chun greats. :D


The guy in white is Big "Superbad" Ed,, dam good chi sao Edward...
Best I’ve seen on the internet in a long time…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

________________________________________________

Jihad is part of this overall defense of Islam… Jihad means to struggle to the utmost of one's capacity… A man who exerts himself mentally or physically or spends his wealth in the cause of God is indeed engaged in Jihad… but in the language of the Divine Law,, This word is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate as enemies of Islam…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[edward]

If i get off my butt, i'll try posting more stuff in the future... like stance rooting, unique angles of attack off the center line, counter attacks, and more blocking and attacking...... I just need to get stuff organzied

[Ali Rahim]

If i get off my butt, i'll try posting more stuff in the future... like stance rooting, unique angles of attack off the center line, counter attacks, and more blocking and attacking...... I just need to get stuff organzied

Help “Big Ed”!!! I need another fix,, I’m sick,, your dope is a 9,, I need some mo Goooooood chi sao… Keep them coming,, I love it… :)

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

________________________________________________

Jihad is part of this overall defense of Islam… Jihad means to struggle to the utmost of one's capacity… A man who exerts himself mentally or physically or spends his wealth in the cause of God is indeed engaged in Jihad… but in the language of the Divine Law,, This word is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate as enemies of Islam…

Ali Hamad Rahim.

[R0D]

wow nice chi sau clips edward, I like your website with all the videoclips. It's nice to see people (kwoons) shareing videoclips on their websites.

[edward]

http://windycitywingchun.com/movies/prac8.mpg

Regarding prac 8.... some of the things one can practice when chi saoing. This practice invovles several things. But before I discuss this, I suggest its better to train this way in the later stages. I've found from teaching, that its better to get the student to move the feet every opportunity he gets to help develop body unity. So, if you have problems moving around, its best not to practice blocking like this in the video yet.

Rooting the stance and blocking the techinque invovles many things. I'll just go over basic concepts so everyone can follow along. If you watch the video, there's a period where I just basically maintain my stance and just simply block. I don't really make too many adjustments with my feet, but simply deal with everything from above.

First and foremost, this is done with a good stance. Without development of a proper YGKYM, one won't be able to main that position and block anything that comes in regardless of the force. Remember, the legs support the body, which support the hands, which support the arms... all in that order, so in a sense the stance plays a significant role.

One must also have learned to develop the seperation of arms from the body. What exactly does this mean, when you practice SLT, you'll notice there is no movement in the form, but simply arm movement. I understand there is also body movement invovled, but let's keep this basic. So, when you do the form you isolate hand movments of the tan, bong, and fok family throughout the form. By isolating this, you'll learn to develop the seperation from the body. Without being able to do this, you'll notice incoming contact to your arms end up shooting into your center, and then disrupting the stance. If you can isolate the arms from the body, your stance regardless of the attack or the force isn't disruptted by it, since its basically being delt with, from the arms only.

Notice also in the video, different ways to block the oncoming force. If you pay close attention everytime I block and then watch Phil's body and footwork, you notice while the chi sao seems to be in constant flow, you'll notice that each block does in fact jam his motion. You can say a rule of thumb in blocking is 3 things..... 1 don't get hit, 2 block with the body and not the hands (i'll discuss that concept later), 3 a good block doesn't only block, but regains the center so you can attack, 4 the block also jams the opponent from throwing another attack. Thus, watch the video and see how his attacks from one motion to another don't really come out smoothly, since my blocks of his attack send the force back to him and offset his own center.

There's basically 3 common mistakes when you practice rooting the stance like this. The first being to rigid when the force comes in, yes, its true you can hold the stance, but you have to know when to adjust and when your using muscle. The basic self check is, if you feel your self leaning back, but you still maintained your stance, that's not really a good job in rooting, but a case of luck and muscle. In the beginning when developing this drill you may have to make minimal foot adjustments in order to avoid the rigidity and muscling of your own stance. 2nd, be cautious in your blocking. If you haven't gottne the stance down yet, doing motions like bong sau with muscle will only result in injury. Blocking is based of structure not muscle.... thus, if you hold your hand properly your opponent will stick to you, and if he pushes further he will send back the power to himself... If you force out your blocks, you'll also end up doing muscle. 3rd Make sure you know the size of your house, or the area you hands should extend out, all to often people end up chasing attacks when they should be more patient for the attacks to come a certain distance. Its sorta like greeting someone when he's coming to your house at the lawn or waiting till he rings teh door bell at your house, be cautious of chasing hands, since you'll end up reaching and putting yourself in a bad position for blocking.

[Ali Rahim]

Edward said:

Regarding prac 8.... some of the things one can practice when chi saoing. This practice invovles several things. But before I discuss this, I suggest its better to train this way in the later stages. I've found from teaching, that its better to get the student to move the feet every opportunity he gets to help develop body unity. So, if you have problems moving around, its best not to practice blocking like this in the video yet.


I always believe that the feet should follow the hands,, but of course;; the better you get,, the more you strip away,, as far as movements are concerned…

Good post!!

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[edward]

The feet do follow the hands upon contact, both hands funciton as your upper triangle, and when this triangle gets jammed in or stretched out, it basically signals to your feet to either move back or move forward. But, the key word is development, the rooting of the stance and blocking is for a certain development.... just like push up are for your chest and shoulders, but doesn't concentrate on leg muscle, or running develops endurance, etc, etc.... you know what i mean....yada, yada, yada

[sihing]

I respectfully do not agree with the feet following hands methodology, unless of course you have no movement or footwork in your system. I believe the footwork supports the hands and they work in conjunction with each other, the footwork supporting and setting up the hands.

I watched some of the videos when they were first posted and although I do see a high level of skill within them I still do not agree with they way the WC was portrayed, staying down the center, dealing with both arms and shifting/ twisting to deal with force. http://www.codetrap.net/wingchun/ , at this link (last two clips #6 & #7), you will see a difference in the way some do Chi-sao, more footwork and positioning to the point that at times the two participants have actually moved 180 degrees from where they started from (of course this is due to the fact the other practitioner in these vids has equal skills and such, requiring more to be done, counter for counter per say.) I agree that more footwork and positioning are not always necessary, especially for the practitioner with superior skills/tactics/attributes, since the initial movement will nullify any counter from an inferior opponent. In these cases, less is more effective, but when dealing with more skilled opponents or opponents with similar skills, like other WC practitioners from other lineages different from you own, more may be needed to get the job done. All of this is dealt with as the situation is unfolding, but personally I rather have the ability and not have to use it than to not have the ability and need it.


James

[Ali Rahim]

Sihing said:

I respectfully do not agree with the feet following hands methodology, unless of course you have no movement or footwork in your system. I believe the footwork supports the hands and they work in conjunction with each other, the footwork supporting and setting up the hands.


I'm not saying that you are wrong,, different strokes for different folks..

If the feet gets there before the hands,, then you will jam your own technique and become unbalance most of the time or give up to much offfensive room…

The top triangle determined the correct fighting distance,, not the bottom… You need good bridge contact to destroy someone structure,, not footwork,, unless you are just running away from someone’s offensive structure,, then it will take a longer time to finish the job...

Picture this: a truck pushes snow in a parking lot,, there is no way that the parking lot will become finish,, if the truck goes before the snow blade,, because the snow blade must do the actual or physical application first,, not the truck…

The snow blade is the top triangle Because it does the application,, the truck is the bottom triangle because it moves or energizes the snow blade...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[edward]

I respectfully do not agree with the feet following hands methodology, unless of course you have no movement or footwork in your system. I believe the footwork supports the hands and they work in conjunction with each other, the footwork supporting and setting up the hands.

Let me first quote something from the movie Tommy boy, Richard Hayden: "It's called reading-top to bottom-left to right-group words together into sentences-take tylenol for any headaches-midol for any cramps. "
Clearly, try to read what i post before you respond.. , coz i clearly state, "Remember, the legs support the body, which support the hands, which support the arms... all in that order, so in a sense the stance plays a significant role.




I watched some of the videos when they were first posted and although I do see a high level of skill within them I still do not agree with they way the WC was portrayed, staying down the center, dealing with both arms and shifting/ twisting to deal with force.


I'm not here to convince you to agree, clearly when you believe flanking to the outside, is the same principle of the centerline theory, then there's no point in debating what your concept of a straight line is....its sorta like columbus trying to convince the world at the time, it wasn't flat



http://www.codetrap.net/wingchun/ , at this link (last two clips #6 & #7), you will see a difference in the way some do Chi-sao, more footwork and positioning to the point that at times the two participants have actually moved 180 degrees from where they started from (of course this is due to the fact the other practitioner in these vids has equal skills and such, requiring more to be done, counter for counter per say.)


Yeah i watched the videos, sorry but i dont' know why other lines even bother practicing chi sao when all you do is chain punching.....chain punching is the lowest level of wing chun possible and in reality against wing chun theory, and you never learn to develop any sensitivity by doing it that way, let's see, watching some of the videos, the one guy starts chain punching, and the other guy learns to lean back, good way to develop guts and good structure with the lean back.... but like i said, everyone has their own way of doing things....so to each his own.. :)



I agree that more footwork and positioning are not always necessary, especially for the practitioner with superior skills/tactics/attributes, since the initial movement will nullify any counter from an inferior opponent. In these cases, less is more effective, but when dealing with more skilled opponents or opponents with similar skills, like other WC practitioners from other lineages different from you own, more may be needed to get the job done. All of this is dealt with as the situation is unfolding, but personally I rather have the ability and not have to use it than to not have the ability and need it.


James

[Ali Rahim]

Good Post!!!!


Edward said:

I'm not here to convince you to agree, clearly when you believe flanking to the outside, is the same principle of the centerline theory, then there's no point in debating what your concept of a straight line is....its sorta like columbus trying to convince the world at the time, it wasn't flat


LOL...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

I respectfully do not agree with the feet following hands methodology, unless of course you have no movement or footwork in your system. I believe the footwork supports the hands and they work in conjunction with each other, the footwork supporting and setting up the hands.

Let me first quote something from the movie Tommy boy, Richard Hayden: "It's called reading-top to bottom-left to right-group words together into sentences-take tylenol for any headaches-midol for any cramps. "
Clearly, try to read what i post before you respond.. , coz i clearly state, "Remember, the legs support the body, which support the hands, which support the arms... all in that order, so in a sense the stance plays a significant role.




I watched some of the videos when they were first posted and although I do see a high level of skill within them I still do not agree with they way the WC was portrayed, staying down the center, dealing with both arms and shifting/ twisting to deal with force.


I'm not here to convince you to agree, clearly when you believe flanking to the outside, is the same principle of the centerline theory, then there's no point in debating what your concept of a straight line is....its sorta like columbus trying to convince the world at the time, it wasn't flat



http://www.codetrap.net/wingchun/ , at this link (last two clips #6 & #7), you will see a difference in the way some do Chi-sao, more footwork and positioning to the point that at times the two participants have actually moved 180 degrees from where they started from (of course this is due to the fact the other practitioner in these vids has equal skills and such, requiring more to be done, counter for counter per say.)


Yeah i watched the videos, sorry but i dont' know why other lines even bother practicing chi sao when all you do is chain punching.....chain punching is the lowest level of wing chun possible and in reality against wing chun theory, and you never learn to develop any sensitivity by doing it that way, let's see, watching some of the videos, the one guy starts chain punching, and the other guy learns to lean back, good way to develop guts and good structure with the lean back.... but like i said, everyone has their own way of doing things....so to each his own.. :)



I agree that more footwork and positioning are not always necessary, especially for the practitioner with superior skills/tactics/attributes, since the initial movement will nullify any counter from an inferior opponent. In these cases, less is more effective, but when dealing with more skilled opponents or opponents with similar skills, like other WC practitioners from other lineages different from you own, more may be needed to get the job done. All of this is dealt with as the situation is unfolding, but personally I rather have the ability and not have to use it than to not have the ability and need it.


James
Now using your own quote "the legs support the body and the body supports the hands which supports the arms, in that order", well that is not what I said, which was "FOOTWORK" supports the above, not just the body, there is a difference. Yes I know all about stability in a stance and yes this is a important part of the whole process, in the beginning, but once that is learned and absorbed by the practitioner, mobility takes precedence, since being a stationary target (regardless if you shift or pivot or twist, if you do not move your body to another area of space, away from your opponents two primary weapons his arm/hands, you are being stationary) is easier to hit than a moving one. I once again reviewed the chi-sao clips and respectfully must say that they are good, if that is what you want out of your chi-sao and WC skills, but in all practicality, IMO they are basic drills and should only be done by beginners, since keeping that type of training and practice up (staying stationary) is not a good thing to do when in combat. Most of the clips basically repeated themselves, bon sao's, wu sao's with pak/jut sao thrown in there, all very prevalent. I could be wrong of course but this is what I saw, no personal offense intended as you could have been holding back for all I know and your skill is not reflected in those vids.

Now concerning the vid's I posted, if you are talking about the leaning back at the end of each sequence, remember this is a demo, one of them random and the other not. How long shall one counter another’s techniques when you are trying to demonstrate some of the art to onlookers? What's important to look at is the initial movement and response. In the random one I am initiating most everything (I’m the taller one with hair, my Sihing is the bald one), my Sihing countering up to a point. Again we are not striking one another with the intent to make full contact, as this was filmed for a DVD we made recently to demonstrate to those receiving it a film of the instructors at our school. But it does demonstrate, movement, forward intention, contact reflexes, and continual follow up, which contrary to your opinion, is the most efficient and effective means of follow-up (chain punch). I'm not sure what your WC teaches you, but in mine, the WC punch contains many things used to control/trap/off balance the attacker while hitting them with the strike, also taught is the idea to hit them repeatedly to insure the end of the confrontation in the shortest time. If one strike is all that is needed then great, but we train to continually follow-up as a good habit.

Not sure if you are trying imply stupidity on my part when you say, I quote "I'm not here to convince you to agree, clearly when you believe flanking to the outside, is the same principle of the centerline theory, then there's no point in debating what your concept of a straight line is....its sorta like columbus trying to convince the world at the time, it wasn't flat.." I don't recall mentioning anything about the centerline principal, to which is only part of my WC fighting concept, not the totality. We train that principals in the basic 4 drills of the Dan Chi-sao (single arm parallel stanced drills), where little footwork is used and no shifting allowed, to develop economy of motion, forward intention, contact reflexes, basic energy development, structure in the upper body, arms, hands, legs and basic movements leading one up to Double arm and other chi-sao drills. Your drills are similar to that of the Augustine Fong line, to which I believe you belong to, I respect Sifu Fong for his skill in what he does, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, neither does he or yourself or anyone else for that matter have to agree with my methods, I really don't care. I've done enough research over the last 17yrs to know confidently what is effective and what is more effective. It’s just my opinion, we are each entitled to one.



James

[edward]

seriously dude, i just don't care

[sihing]

seriously dude, i just don't care

ditto, in the end it is all good.....just making some observations and nothing personal.

Happy training/teaching..

James