Making an Investment

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Lately, I've been looking around for a pair of high quality butterfly swords. I've handled the HanWei swords, but would like some comparative info and suggestions on where else to look for Quality. Has anyone ever handled a pair of Cold Steel Butterfly swords or Wing Lam Butterfly swords? What about the Leung Ting Swords? Are there any other Makes out there that might be worth checking out?

On a related note, I can't seem to find any trace of the Cold Steel Butterfly Swords anymore. Have they been discontinued :confused:

Peace
CSP

[anerlich]

I've got a pair of the Leung Ting ones that I quite like. The only criticism I have is that the handles are a litte thinner than ideal for the size of my hands, but I can work around that well enough.

My instructor has a beautiful sharpened pair made by a professional knifesmith ... but they apparently take ages and are very fiddly to make, and even at over $1200 AUD a pair, the guy didn't think it worth his while to make them except on a very occasional basis.

I personally don't like training with sharp swords - too easy to do damage even to yourself - my sihing accidentally cut a tendon in his finger, just while putting them back in the scabbard, and it took AGES before he could make a fist properly again.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The only criticism I have is that the handles are a litte thinner than ideal for the size of my hands, but I can work around that well enough.

I have the same situation with the HanWei handles. They're about the size of a drumstick. Do the Leung Ting ones have a full tang?

CSP

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I found a whole bunch of "Butterfly Swords" online... funny thing is, they're not butterfly swords. They're confederate D-Guard Bowie Knives. Some of these sites will make to order as well.

http://www.worldwidemilitaria.com/US_CW_SWORD.htm
"Confederate "D" Guard Bowie Knife. An exact replica of the D-Guard Bowie knife carried by a Virginia Infantryman during the Civil War. The polished blade is 11 1/2" long and over 2" wide with an overall length of 15 1/2". The authentic black leather sheath is complete with belt loop and reinforced scabbard throat and tip. $49.50"

http://www.brothersmith-swords.com/A11-07690-Functional-D-Guard-Bowie-p-23374.html
"10.5 inch carbon steel blade hardwood handle with a brass hand-guard leather sheath and 15 inches overall. 1.5 lbs"

http://www.mountainmanknives.com/ConfederateDGuard.html
"My standard D-Guard is between 9 & 12" blade length,
with carbon steel blade, iron guard, and wood or bone
grip. The price is $149.99 and you have the options of
blade length and grip materials to choose from."

http://www.bearclawknives.com/web%20pics/bowie2.jpg
"D-Guard Bowie with Hammer and Anvil Finish
12 1/2" Blade of 5160 Carbon Steel Blade - 19" Overall
Iron & Copper Guard
Amber & Whitetail Antler Handle with Copper Pins
$475.00"

[KPM]

I found a whole bunch of "Butterfly Swords" online... funny thing is, they're not butterfly swords. They're confederate D-Guard Bowie Knives. Some of these sites will make to order as well.

["

--Ah! A man after my own heart! :) I prefer the D-guard bowies to the traditional butterfly knives. I've posted on this in the past, which should show up in a search. The balance is a little different, there is usually a longer grip allowing more room for bigger hands, and of course the main feature of the bowie......the sharpened back-edge at the tip. The bowies encourage you to do more "slicing and dicing" in your knife technique and less "chopping." If you know how to do back-cuts with the tip, it opens up a whole new aspect of fighting with the big knives. The pair I have are not the expensive custom jobs, but rather a production model similar that that in your first link. But they are not of full-tang construction, and I have bent them in the past during practice cutting. Of course, how many WCK guys ever do practice cutting with their butterfly knives? :D

Keith

[anerlich]

Do the Leung Ting ones have a full tang?

I don't know what a "tang" is.

Of course, how many WCK guys ever do practice cutting with their butterfly knives?

Bit hard when I don't use sharpened blades.

I have done plenty of "practice cutting" with my combat folders.

Personally, I don't feel the butterfly sword, as a edged weapon, is particularly practical for modern self defense. I can't carry them legally where I live, and trying to conceal them is a joke. I feel their combat application in modern times is more applicable to short sticks, etc., analogues of which are much easier to come by as incidental weapons - sticks, tyre irons, bicycle pumps, car antennae, etc.

I do like the dynamics of the sword form, and the look of the weapons themselves.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Personally, I don't feel the butterfly sword, as a edged weapon, is particularly practical for modern self defense. I can't carry them legally where I live, and trying to conceal them is a joke. I feel their combat application in modern times is more applicable to short sticks, etc., analogues of which are much easier to come by as incidental weapons - sticks, tyre irons, bicycle pumps, car antennae, etc.
Good points.

Something else to consider are legal ramifications should you ever have to use your swords in combat. Injuring someone with an "exotic" martial arts weapon will very likely encourage a prosecutor to go after you, (even if it was in self-defense!) as many of the uninformed individuals in our legal system will often see you as "some kung-fu nut-case who was just praying for a chance to act out his vigilante fantasies". -This not just idle speculation either, as there are a number of precedent cases like this (whether or not the guys were actually "crazy", I do not know....)

Too bad Terence hasn't been around lately, or we could ask him for some more legal details. :)

-Lawrence

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I don't know what a "tang" is.

The Tang of a knife refers to the part of the knife that extends from the blade into the handle. Does it insert into the handle at all? Halfway? All the way? Is it narrower than the handle or as wide as the handle?
A Full tang is all the way through the handle.


I feel their combat application in modern times is more applicable to short sticks, etc.

More applicable, yes, but the knowledge is taught with blades. Certain concepts such as dislodging the blades from bone, angling through the ribcage, or progressively attacking vital tissues are more readily trained with the swords. It would be a shame to throw out that knowledge due to silly little laws.


I do like the dynamics of the sword form, and the look of the weapons themselves.
Wing Chun is, in part, about optimal structures. Maybe some thought went into Which sword structure should be used.

CSP

[anerlich]

A Full tang is all the way through the handle.

I don't have them with me (it's technically illegal to carry them around) but I suspect not. BTW handles/hooks are bronze and in one piece, blade is steel.

Certain concepts such as dislodging the blades from bone, angling through the ribcage, or progressively attacking vital tissues are more readily trained with the swords.

OK, but I'm still going to work these with combat folders. WC doesn't exactly have the franchise.

It would be a shame to throw out that knowledge due to silly little laws.

I'm not sure the knowledge has much of a practical application unless we're all transported to a parallel universe where there are no rifles, handguns, tasers, combat folders, tanks, fighter planes ...

Nor am I sure the laws are so silly. I don't want every nutter in town to be able to pack 18" blades with impunity. I can train with blades in an MA academy, I just get popped if I get caught with them in public out of their packaging ... I can live with that. A combat folder I can say I carry because I use it to open boxes at work, though I wouldn't want to test that in court. Sharp butterfly swords are a bit more difficult to explain away, as well as being bloody heavy and making you look like Mr Pretentious if you ever wore 'em out in public.

Wing Chun is, in part, about optimal structures. Maybe some thought went into Which sword structure should be used.

Looks like lots of thoughts did, seeing as there is such a wide range of different shapes and designs available :D

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I'm not sure the knowledge has much of a practical application unless we're all transported to a parallel universe where there are no rifles, handguns, tasers, combat folders, tanks, fighter planes ...


What?! You mean your Sifu never taught you the super-secret, closed-door-behind-closed-door Biu Dao against a Fighter plane technique? That's it, I'm reporting him to the VTAA. ;)

I'm reminded of a quote from Einstein:
"I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."

It seems like a good idea, then, to preserve this knowledge in order to pass it along through the family tree. Yes, Einstein used sticks and stones as images of backwardness, but that stone will most likely be sharp and on the end of a stick.


Sharp butterfly swords are a bit more difficult to explain away, as well as being bloody heavy and making you look like Mr Pretentious if you ever wore 'em out in public.


"What's that? No, I've never heard what they say about men with big knives." :D

You're right about the laws not being silly and/or little. I could go off topic and note the discrepancy between blade and gun laws, but I'd rather not, it's messy. Suffice to say that this kind of training can, as you say, be done within the confines of a safe training space with dull knives. It need not go out into the street.

Giving Sharp Butterfly Swords as a gift is more a matter of trust than of practicality, though. Giving someone live blades implies trust in the heart, soul, and skill of the person you are giving them to. The artistic aspect of the sharpened blade is important, too; would you want an unsharpened damascus blade?

CSP

[Yaksha]

I have a pair of ontario machettes that I cut down to butterfly length and dulled up for practice. Also cut handles in half and reinforced with screws so the blades fit together as I mentioned in the below thread entitled "Butterfly Swords" and have (still) not noticed most of the problems Tom Kagan brought up. My practice knives don't have ideal balance since they've been cut down, but they're strong which I think is excellent for practice because you need to be able to do drills against other weapons relatively safely, but you should not be spoiled into thinking you will have a perfect weapon if push comes to shove.

I also have a pair of cold steel kurki machettes (which are 13 inches long) that I've been practicing with lately. Its a lot of fun because the kurki blade design has a high, foreward balance which gives then a nice weighty chop.

As far as a first sword to practice with, it should probably be very dull for obvious reasons.

The footwork and power generated with the butterfly sword form and also the ever present dashing sense of somber danger which is inherent in practicing with live blades are great training even just for open hand conflicts IMHO.

I also sometimes use long machettes to practice with singly or doubly. The form is also useful with these, but some modifications must be made to make it practical and safe.

I guess I didn't answer the question directly, but i hope the post was useful somehow.

I believe cold steel butterfly swords have been discontinued. Probabally because of this sword: http://www.swords-n-stuff.com/pc-2067.html which I hear is razor sharp and of excellent construction.