Good Chi sao videos

[XINDU]

detroitwingchun.com

[hunt1]

Good Chi Sau? Where?

[Phil Redmond]

Good Chi Sau? Where?
Hey hunt1, Well, they definately can't mean the 1984 chi sau? clip of me on their site. :) That clip wasn't good chi sau at all. It's been so long ago I forget about that clip. It was taken when I was in transition from some other lineage chi sau to TWC chi sau and what to do and what not to do. We were just fooling around. I think the reference to the clip was a weak troll attempt. I'm a tiny bit better than that now. ;)
PR

[hunt1]

Sorry Phil I didnt even notice your footage. Guess I will have to go back and look now. :)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey Phil:

Sometimes it's best to say nothing! :)

[Mr Punch]

Ultimate, you're so wise!

If you were only my sifu I'd listen to you... but you're not, so I'm going to jump in with both feet and say the following to Xindu (and Ali if he shows up)...

1) Why do you have twenty year old footage of someone who doesn't train in your line (OK I know the answer to this; I'm being facetious! :eek: )?

2) There was some interesting and some pretty nice looking stuff there... but that last grappling defence was hilarious!

3) The clips marked full contact weren't.

4) And finally a completely serious non-trolly question: what is the point of three-man chi sao?

[Don J]

Would like to ask , i seen in the photo page showing Ali Rahim 8th pro fight in Thailand. What kind of event was that? Interesting web site , seems to have a bit of a conflict with William Cheung Lineage.

[Phil Redmond]

Ultimate, you're so wise!
If you were only my sifu I'd listen to you... but you're not, so I'm going to jump in with both feet and say the following to Xindu (and Ali if he shows up)...
1) Why do you have twenty year old footage of someone who doesn't train in your line (OK I know the answer to this; I'm being facetious! :eek: )?

There are obviously some very intelligent and observant people on this forum. Thank God. ;)
BTW, I going to listen to Ultimate on this one.
PR

[bonetone]

I can never see the video's on that sight for some reason. I don't care much for web clips though. Phil, I watched some of the clips on your sight and enjoyed them, I like the way you guys do the pole form.

[anerlich]

what is the point of three-man chi sao?

This is just a trick to try to make me look at that site again, yeah?

[Mr Punch]

Nah man it's there... I mean I work for the YMCA and it looks like what I might do at the kids summerschool coming up, which is why I'm asking... there's either gonna be some complicated energetics involved which can help my wing chun, or I can keep the little *******s happy for another twenty minutes!
:D

...But I AM interested!!!

[CFT]

We have 3-man chi sau exercise that we do every now and then. One against two, using chi sau principles rather than the normal hand positions. Ours is a bit more dynamic rather than the rythmic repetition shown in that video.

[Mr Punch]

We have 3-man chi sau exercise that we do every now and then. One against two, using chi sau principles rather than the normal hand positions. Ours is a bit more dynamic rather than the rythmic repetition shown in that video.Thanks Chee. Would you mind explaining it a little more?

[Mr Punch]

2) There was some interesting and some pretty nice looking stuff there... but that last grappling defence was hilarious!

3) The clips marked full contact weren't.

4) And finally a completely serious non-trolly question: what is the point of three-man chi sao?Ali, looks like you think I'm trolling, since you haven't answered this at all.

Let me rephrase:

1) You seem to do some sort of grappling, judging by the demo of your son's spirited but terrible takedown attempt and your nicely tapping him out. Have you tried the last grappling defence (the standing there, bracing and front kicking) against your grappling teacher, or any of the grapplers in your school with a reasonable amount of experience? Do you recommend this as a useful technique for self defence?

2) What's your definition of full-contact?

3) Could you please explain a couple of the reasons for doing and the principles behind three-man chi sao?

Thanks for your consideration.

[Liddel]

My Sifu showed us the 3 man Chi Sao a while back and when i asked why one would do this, i was told that he taught a class with over 50 people in Boston many many years ago and thew only way to Chi Sao with everyone was to do two students at a time....
Is that why you guys train this way ?

[Mr Punch]

C'mon!!! You were here!

Any chance of you answering my questions!? Please!

[Mr Punch]

My Sifu showed us the 3 man Chi Sao a while back and when i asked why one would do this, i was told that he taught a class with over 50 people in Boston many many years ago and thew only way to Chi Sao with everyone was to do two students at a time....
Not dissing your sifu, but that's a very strange reason!

[KPM]

C'mon!!! You were here!

Any chance of you answering my questions!? Please!


Hi Mat!

I can't answer for either Ali or Nelson and have not watched the videos on their site. But I do have some feedback on the subject of 3 man chi sao. I learned this many years ago as part of Augustine Fong's version of WCK. It basically was done in 2 ways. First there was the 3 man version of single chi sao. Imagine basically standing in a circle with each of your arms in contact with a different partner and doing the single sticking hand motions. The group can be in-sync, which is pretty easy. Or they can be out of sync....which is pretty hard! Basically you have to be sensitive and respond independantly with each arm in a chi sao format. It builds your sensitivity and sense of timing. Next there was the 3 man version of double chi sao. In this one you are doing regular double arm chi sao with your partner while the 3rd man stands by. At a certain point when you manage to get a controlling position on your partner, you "pass him off" to the 3rd guy by redirecting him with a po pai palm movement or something similar. The 3rd guy has to be paying attention and be ready at any moment to "receive" his partner. This teaches the 3rd guy and the guy being "passed off" to suddenly and unexpectedly engage someone and go right to chi sao. It also makes things more interesting for the "odd man out" in a situation when not everyone has a chi sao partner and is a way to keep him involved. Just my 2 cents. :)

Keith

[Liddel]

Not dissing your sifu, but that's a very strange reason!

Funny, i thought it was very logical.
I think its strange when Masters dont Chi Sao with all thier students and in my mind that is the most logical way to practise with every student of a big class.

One thing thats comes to mind is, as a master, feeling how your student is progressing is one step better than seeing how they progress.
Another point i like, is that ive often caught the idea of how to accomplish something through 'feeling' how my Sifu does an action rather than listening or looking at him with another student.

At the end of the day its just an exercise...But hey, different strokes for different folks :)

What was Ali's reason ?

[Mr Punch]

The group can be in-sync, which is pretty easy. Or they can be out of sync....which is pretty hard! Basically you have to be sensitive and respond independantly with each arm in a chi sao format. It builds your sensitivity and sense of timing. Cheers Keith. If the group is in synch, then there can be no way of practising timing right? Because all you're doing is trying to keep together.

If the group is out of synch, how do you get the energies going two ways into both people's centres?

With your three-man double hand chi sao, it's really a normal two-man one with another guy standing around...! That's using positional/environmental factors... very good, but not 'three-man' chi sao.

Liddel, fair enough, but as the only reason...? I would have thought that simply masters can't practice with everyone in a big seminar.

And the same question to you: how do you get the energies going two-ways? (and so I suppose by extension, how could your sifu feel everybody's energies?)

[Liddel]

Mat said "Liddel, fair enough, but as the only reason...? "

Mat - not sure, that was the only reson given to me at the time but My Sifu may have another he didnt offer to me ... So what ?

To rectify though, It was only Chi Dan Sao not double chi sao that was done with three men, as some others have mentioned.

Also you state
1) "I would have thought that simply masters can't practice with everyone in a big seminar." Maybe they can with this tool ??

But you are probably right, ive never been to a VT seminar and as far as im aware My Sifu has never given one.
I only reffered to actual Classes he was taking. And with over fifty pepole per class with a few classes per day you couldnt do Chi Sao with everyone without spending all your time just on Chi Sao.

2) "If the group is out of synch, how do you get the energies going two ways into both people's centres?" You raise a good point,

When i saw 3 man Chi Dan Sao, it was 'IN' sync as it would be with one on one practise, and its quite simple to direct energies at thier center, try it and see.
How do you direct your energy when you perform double Bong Sao in CK ?
Or any other doulbe action in any of the three forms ?
Im sure you could apply the same principles if you tried,
What do you think ?

[KPM]

Cheers Keith. If the group is in synch, then there can be no way of practising timing right? Because all you're doing is trying to keep together.

---But that's a timing too!

If the group is out of synch, how do you get the energies going two ways into both people's centres?

---Its a challenge, but can be done! Going into someone's center doesn't have to mean going right up the middle. You should be able to engage the center from any angle. The 3 man single stick drill helps to teach this.

With your three-man double hand chi sao, it's really a normal two-man one with another guy standing around...! That's using positional/environmental factors... very good, but not 'three-man' chi sao.

---It is by Augustine Fong's definition! :D The third guy isn't just standing around. He has to be engaged, paying attention, and ready to receive.

Keith

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, I appreciate your point about the centre line not having to be right up the centre so to speak... and the connection from CK.

I tell you what, I'm up for anything, I'll give it a shot and come back and tell you what I found! Just one more thing, if we're in a circle should we be singing Cum By Yah or Rivers of Babylon?! :p :D

[stuartm]

Hey - you are the bum mate for trolling these boards with your infantile b****t :mad: Crawl back under the rock you came from and stop embarassing yourself and the rest of the wing chun community.

From what Ive seen of Sifu Redmond on the 3 years ive been on the forum he always comes accross as a decent and humble guy.

You have obvioulsy failed to learn one of the fundamental lessons about being a real martial artist.....go think!! :(

[Sihing73]

Hi Staurt,

These trolls get a kick out of stirring up trouble. Probably because they are lacking in other things. But, while I can appreciate your response I would rather you report the post to myself or Sandman and we will take care of the minor annoyance.

It's funny, IP's can be tracked yet some people think they are fooling everyone about who they are.

The wheels turn, sometimes slowyly but they do turn. ;)

Peace,

Dave

[Ali Rahim]

We have 3-man chi sau exercise that we do every now and then. One against two, using chi sau principles rather than the normal hand positions. Ours is a bit more dynamic rather than the rythmic repetition shown in that video.

One of the reason why we use three man chi sao,, is that; some people can be very quick with their hands…

It teaches us to maintain offensive and defensive structure,, simultaneous with both hands being able to deliver an offensive and defensive move when using the square structures…

Here is a example of what I’m taking about,, scroll down to video #13 applications #3... Here!!! (http://detroitwingchun.com/video%20frames%20page.htm)

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Liddel]

After another look at the video on Ali's site i now realise that the three man Chi Sao is different to the one i mentioned seeing my Master do.

When i saw three man Chi Sao being used, one man was doing Tan-Da-Bong on both arms and two others were doing Fook-Jum-Da with that first man, The two Fook-Jum-Da practitioners were NOT touching, so there was NO complete circle (if you will).

After thinking about this by myself and then re visiting the Video link i have an obvious question....
When i tried to mimik the complete circle Three man Chi Sao with my Si-Dei i realised that for everyone to be in contact and to be able to perform the prearranged actions of Chi Dan Sao, our elbows had to be outside the body which is contrary to my own theory.
Is this how Your School does this Ali ?
Have i missed something, are your elbows outside or inside you body ?
If they are outside then, dont you feel a 'loss' of power (less not none) ?
Does it have a real direct practicality ?
or are you using it for a tool to attain skill that can be altered for a practical use ?
Humbly curious
Liddel

[Ali Rahim]

The elbow plays on the heart; not on the centerline.

That is correct, playing off the heart (meaning elbow positions),, gives you stronger mon sao or "asking hand power",, when playing chi sao or when fighting in the inside...

Remember in wing chun,, you have many different traveling line for the elbow…
There are a lot of strong position that the elbow can take,, if you continue to work hard you will find them all by yourself,, but it would be easier for your sifu to show you...

But sometime our elbows will leave the square zone line,, to accommodate what have to be accommodated,, like looping strikes when coming in realy fast...

Once you think fixed (elbow),, you fu*ked…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Liddel]

Sorry, you mis-understand.....
Nelson states "The elbow plays on the heart; not on the centerline."

I can appreciate this, as i agree, my post actually refers to 'inside' or 'outside' the body ? No mention of a perfect placement on the 'centerline' because i agree with what Ali said "Once you think fixed (elbow),, you fu*ked…"

My question is... when in a cirlce performing 3 man Chi Sao, do you have your elbows within your body width, or outside your body width ?

I see three man Chi Sao making each member of the circle perform the actions with Flying Elbows, due to the angle at which each person is standing in relation to each other (to keep everyone involved)....
Maybe i have it wrong but thats what i see in the vid and when i tried with people.....
Maybe thats your purpose, to train for another type of power, thats why i ask ?

Just to clarify im not 'for' or 'against' it, im just curious about it, thats all,
thanks for endulging me :)

[Ali]

Sorry, you mis-understand.....
Nelson states "The elbow plays on the heart; not on the centerline."

I can appreciate this, as i agree, my post actually refers to 'inside' or 'outside' the body ? No mention of a perfect placement on the 'centerline' because i agree with what Ali said "Once you think fixed (elbow),, you fu*ked…"

My question is... when in a cirlce performing 3 man Chi Sao, do you have your elbows within your body width, or outside your body width ?

I see three man Chi Sao making each member of the circle perform the actions with Flying Elbows, due to the angle at which each person is standing in relation to each other (to keep everyone involved)....
Maybe i have it wrong but thats what i see in the vid and when i tried with people.....
Maybe thats your purpose, to train for another type of power, thats why i ask ?

Just to clarify im not 'for' or 'against' it, im just curious about it, thats all,
thanks for endulging me :)


maybe I'm taking all of this personal,, when I know it's not...

The elbows has limits (45% off the centerline) and with that chi sao drill we took them to there,, we never flail our arms while doing chi sao,, never will and never have… We always kept good elbow and wrist rotation,, I don’t understand,, “Flying Elbows”…

Shop is closed for two months,, after I answer this last post… I have too much work to do,, can’t continue!!!

Ail Rahim.

[Liddel]

Ali said "maybe I'm taking all of this personal,, when I know it's not..."

Sweet Ali, i hope you do because this is in NO way a dig at anyones Style or personal view....
Im a big believer in what ever works for the individual, my point in chasing this line of questioning is not to determine whats right or wrong, but just to understand another MA's way of thinking and purpose.

What ever your POV, if i disagree with it or not, if i can understand your reasoning i have furthered my own knowledge.

I take your last post with the appreciation of your willingness to share.
It answered my question, thank you.
:)

[Ali]

Ali said "maybe I'm taking all of this personal,, when I know it's not..."

Sweet Ali, i hope you do because this is in NO way a dig at anyones Style or personal view....
Im a big believer in what ever works for the individual, my point in chasing this line of questioning is not to determine whats right or wrong, but just to understand another MA's way of thinking and purpose.

What ever your POV, if i disagree with it or not, if i can understand your reasoning i have furthered my own knowledge.

I take your last post with the appreciation of your willingness to share.
It answered my question, thank you.
:)

May you be bless and kept for harm... :) :D :)

Ali Rahim.