BI-Jong position

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I want to start a discussion about how different wing chun linages set up bi-jong, such as the angles and concepts being used to find position with a moving opponent. Especially the mainland china linages.

What experiences do wing chun people have in regards to this when fighting/sparing with MMA guys that uses a combination of thaiboxing and grappling/jujitsu.

[stonecrusher69]

I'm one...Hi Navin I just got back from FL. Had some interesting training there.Talk to you later..

mike

[Hendrik]

Hi,
I want to start a discussion about how different wing chun linages set up bi-jong, such as the angles and concepts being used to find position with a moving opponent. Especially the mainland china linages.

What experiences do wing chun people have in regards to this when fighting/sparing with MMA guys that uses a combination of thaiboxing and grappling/jujitsu.


reality is about shoot before ready and aim.

How many second at the engagement that Bi -jong last? what is the use of this Bi Jong stuffs?

he who assigned and attach to a Shape is attracting dooms day.

There is no Bi_jong. Bi Jong is great for the Hong kong movie.

WCK is as flex flow and lively as water, why bringing those man made ideas and trying to force the reality to obey them?

if you dont have a 6 force vectors dynamic equilibrium mastering and is in Broken Arrow, it doesnt matter what and how you Bi-Jong, it is just about who is faster and stronger.

[kung fu fighter]

reality is about shoot before ready and aim.

How many second at the engagement that Bi -jong last? what is the use of this Bi Jong stuffs?

he who assigned and attach to a Shape is attracting dooms day.

There is no Bi_jong. Bi Jong is great for the Hong kong movie.

WCK is as flex flow and lively as water, why bringing those man made ideas and trying to force the reality to obey them?

if you dont have a 6 force vectors dynamic equilibrium mastering and is in Broken Arrow, it doesnt matter what and how you Bi-Jong, it is just about who is faster and stronger.

Hendrik are you talking about just hitting the opponent from where ever your hands might be at the time, such as when they are naturally down at you sides.

What is Broken arrow?

Give us some insights on your footwork strategy, do you go straight down the center or take angles?

I prefer angles because it keeps me out of my opponent's reach, but at the same time I am able to reach them, especially when fighting/sparing against MMA fighters who will try to use thaiboxing to set up grappling takedown. Chuck liddel used this strategy sucessfully in the second fight against Randy Couture. It's the wing chun bagua footwork that few w.c. people truely understand.

Perhaps wing chun was origionally some advance skills, concept, and principles that was suppose to be integrated into a person's existing martial abilities and not a complete system onto it self. This would explain why so many w.c. people have questions regarding the abilities to close the distance and footwork in general.

kung fu fighter

[Hendrik]

Hendrik are you talking about just hitting the opponent from where ever your hands might be at the time, such as when they are naturally down at you sides.

What is Broken arrow?

Give us some insights on your footwork strategy, do you go straight down the center or take angles?

I prefer angles because it keeps me out of my opponent's reach, but at the same time I am able to reach them, especially when fighting/sparing against MMA fighters who will try to use thaiboxing to set up grappling takedown. Chuck liddel used this strategy sucessfully in the second fight against Randy Couture. It's the wing chun bagua footwork that few w.c. people truely understand.

Anyone else's experiences in regards to this would be great to hear about.


1, eventhougth similar to running a company we want it to be Ready Aim then fire.
reality doesnt work that way in emegency.

2, from 1, if one keep attached to finding a GREAT WAY of Ready Aim then Fire fomulars. Then one is digging oneself into a life long trap which will at the end never be able to do anything real time similar to we can never plan to how to drive a car from home to work. We just drive. Sure, we learn some skill on basic and some technics and applications... etc but there is no Grand plan.

3, if one is not going to get rid of one's fear and doubt and know how to use one's thinking. There will not be anything which make one confident to make a move. When fear doubt were let go, things become simple.


I know my am not good at posting and I am trying to get rid of my critical habit which doesnt serve me. What I am trying to tell you is that you need to learn about what is nature. Real life and applying wCK is the same deal. Dont waste life chasing for something which is not going to serve us in a positive way. Doesnt matter what is that thing or who passed us that bellieve. Why? because we are not living if we stuck ourself into those habit and believe. Now, saying that I am not trying to tell one can be arogant or critic. No, one can be real clear and warm to communicate with. That is what my goal too.


I have make the same mistake for decades chasing those Man Made Ideas of Ready Aim and then Fire in my life, work, engineering... and everywhere. and you dont have to go this path anymore. this path doesnt work but can provoke lots of fear and worried because we are not living but get upset when reality doesnt fit to our plan.

So, that is the same with WCK too, IMHOO, we have to stop attach to something and make it alive. and that is possible. everyone can do it!


Broken Arrow, please check the search engine.

[stricker]

I prefer angles because it keeps me out of my opponent's reach, but at the same time I am able to reach them, especially when fighting/sparing against MMA fighters who will try to use thaiboxing to set up grappling takedown. Chuck liddel used this strategy sucessfully in the second fight against Randy Couture. It's the wing chun bagua footwork that few w.c. people truely understand.

Anyone else's experiences in regards to this would be great to hear about.I've been taught both to go straight in, and to offline and angle in, it depends on the situation, what is your opponent doing? Offline works great with a boxer, you probably gotta get well out of the way of a wrestler, but offline wrong against a thai round kick and you're gonna be in big trouble.

Also, can you point me to the 2nd liddel vs couture fight?

Sorry i havent got any experiences of my own to share, just what i've been taught, but i'm working on it. I've been doing wing chun for a few years now and just started mma training, perhaps in a year or few i'll have some experiences to share!

[kung fu fighter]

1, eventhougth similar to running a company we want it to be Ready Aim then fire.
reality doesnt work that way in emegency.

2, from 1, if one keep attached to finding a GREAT WAY of Ready Aim then Fire fomulars. Then one is digging oneself into a life long trap which will at the end never be able to do anything real time similar to we can never plan to how to drive a car from home to work. We just drive. Sure, we learn some skill on basic and some technics and applications... etc but there is no Grand plan.

3, if one is not going to get rid of one's fear and doubt and know how to use one's thinking. There will not be anything which make one confident to make a move. When fear doubt were let go, things become simple.


I know my am not good at posting and I am trying to get rid of my critical habit which doesnt serve me. What I am trying to tell you is that you need to learn about what is nature. Real life and applying wCK is the same deal. Dont waste life chasing for something which is not going to serve us in a positive way. Doesnt matter what is that thing or who passed us that bellieve. Why? because we are not living if we stuck ourself into those habit and believe. Now, saying that I am not trying to tell one can be arogant or critic. No, one can be real clear and warm to communicate with. That is what my goal too.


I have make the same mistake for decades chasing those Man Made Ideas of Ready Aim and then Fire in my life, work, engineering... and everywhere. and you dont have to go this path anymore. this path doesnt work but can provoke lots of fear and worried because we are not living but get upset when reality doesnt fit to our plan.

So, that is the same with WCK too, IMHOO, we have to stop attach to something and make it alive. and that is possible. everyone can do it!

Hendrik,
Are you saying that we should be the one "firing" making the opponent the one who has to play "catch up" by using the strategy of "ready" "aim" "fire"?

So essentially what you are saying is that the wing chun practioner should be the one attacking by leading the fight or timing causing the opponent to remain one step behind on timing?

Give us some insights on your footwork strategy, do you go straight down the center or take angles?


Hi Stricker,
The second liddel vs couture fight was in the UFC 52?

[stricker]

cheers kung fu fighter i just found it.

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter]Hendrik,
Are you saying that we should be the one "firing" making the opponent the one who has to play "catch up" by using the strategy of "ready" "aim" "fire"?

So essentially what you are saying is that the wing chun practioner should be the one attacking by leading the fight or timing causing the opponent to remain one step behind on timing?

Give us some insights on your footwork strategy, do you go straight down the center or take angles?
QUOTE]



Asking a bird which wing it flip at every take off. Asking a bird which wing it stop while landing.

you are that bird, observe for yourself instead of asking me who is an old man sitting beside a sea.

[stonecrusher69]

I agree, I believe WC is a specalty art,and was taught to compliment some other art one had mastered prior to WC training. ones mastery in another art.If you look at Bagua each linage has a very different flavor to it.All of Dong Hai Quan students where masters in some other art before they learn Bagua.A style like Long fist is a very good all round M.A. not really a specalty art like WC.I think over time WC was taught as primary art.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

My experience with this made me think of the following classic Wing Chun Saying:
"When You See Form, Strike Form. When you see shadow, strike shadow."

The emphasis on optimal structure in Wing Chun implies a keen understanding of non-optimal structure as well. Once comfortable with the realities of structure, a simple glance or touch of the opponent is enough to determine the strengths and weaknesses of their physical realitiy - whether or not they have "flying elbow disease," a bum knee, poor posture, and so on. This is what I understand as the knowledge of form. Finding the weakness and attacking it is to strike form.

Opponents, however, are not mannekins. They move, and often have intimate psychological relationships with their weaknesses. If I aim to poke someone in the eye, chances are they will move to defend it, manifesting their psychological reality - fight or flight, anger or fear, determination or lack of willpower. This is what I understand as the knowledge of shadow. Capitalizing on their reactions and intent is to Strike Shadow.

If you combine the striking of form and shadow, then a tactical and strategic advantage is gained. Sometimes the sensing and striking of shadow comes about individually, especially when the attack is unexpected, but I do not know of any circumstance other than the successful hitting of a target where the striking of form appears alone.

Au Revoir
CSP

[kung fu fighter]

Hi

Perhaps wing chun was origionally some advance level skills, concept, and principles that was suppose to be integrated into a person's existing martial abilities and not a complete system onto it self. This would explain why so many w.c. people have questions regarding the abilities to close the distance and footwork in general. Maybe the origional idea was to use whatever martial art that you were already skilled in, and apply the wing chun atributes to compliment your art's close range fighting skills.

I would like to discuss as many different perspectives on this subject as possible especially from wing chun people with experience against other fighters such as thaiboxing/grappling, MMA , and southern mantis etc. How did your wing chun strategy hold up bad or good experiences.

Hendrik
I have heard that certain linages of wing chun lacks the understanding of long range bridge hands, can you give us your understanding of long range bridge hands from Yik Kam's linage. In Yip Man wing chun one such techniques is called arrow punching.

[Liddel]

Lots of long answers, i thought it was a simple question, but i dont recognise "Bi-Jong"sorry for my ignorance :) ....do you mean to loose the body or touch etc ?
If so....
I fought a MMA who always jabbed/ kick and circled beacuse he was looking for an opportunity to get in from the side.

I found trurning my body remaining face to face the easiest and most effective FOR ME.
If i lost the touch or body, i usually use running punch to bridge the gap and if i dont catch the target for what ever reason, a block of my punch gives me Chi Sao again for me to find the way in, or follow with my favorite action.... the elbow.
My own experience has left me with the simple idea that 'when in doubt - punch.'
It works for me.
:)

[martyg]

Ok, stepping in to play translator again. :) I think what Hendrik's trying to convey and what's also causing confusion: Some people/linneage/branches do not define bai jong as an actual stance, but rather a concept. A concept used to guide (similar to set up or prepare) while entering and engaging, rather than a static stance to launch from.

You can read the "Assuming Structure" portion of this (http://http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun/fiveprinciples.php) article for an example of how I (and others in my family) look at it in this context.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi
It would be interesting to hear some of the strategies different wing chun linages have in regards to footwork such adjusting distance and angles? What are the angles used?

I use 45 degree angles to adjust using all stances to shadow the opponent's movements.