Wing Chun Fighters? Where ya at

[Silent Warrior]

There are no WC fighters.
No WC guy has won a match in:

K-1
Rings
Pancrase
Pride
UFC

or ANY NHB event.

Wing Chun is irrelevant in modern fighting. All these schools can point to is a bunch of guys in the 50's whipping on other guys in the 50's, in Hong Kong.

So, instead this board focuses on tearing each other down, rather than figuring out WHY no one trains Wing Chun to win in the professional circuits. That's right. Wing Chung people always assert...."Oh we couldn't use our art int he
UFC 'cause it's tooooo deadly. We train eye gouges, punching the throat, and all
sorts of deadly techniques from the TOP SECRET Bil-gee form. The Rules prohibit use
from fight there."

Wing Chun people are dilusional. They've been brain washed into thinking their "Superior technique"
will overcome the stronger more aggressive opponent. They just use this as an excuse
for not training hard and aggressively.

[Ravenshaw]

Um... you're judging WC because the practitioners don't compete in tournaments that the WC community as a whole seems uninterested in?

And if everybody that hasn't won in Pride, UFC, etc. is a sissy who can't chain punch their way out of a wet paper bag... where does that put you?

[Don J]

Wow i would of never knew the WC community had such animosity and traits, i have only been training at my WC gym for a few months now but i would of never knew other WC gyms were any different. Seeing as how at my gym we train very hard sweat buckets, pad work, sparring ,partner drills etc. Still a new gym just a few months old since Feb, but the gym is getting more and more people coming in. Its to bad to hear that WC has alot of infighting towards each other. As for WC fighters my gym is active in tournament and san shou competition and my teacher promotes competition and i belive he is looking into starting his own events in the future.

[negativecr33p]

I believe there is someone on this board who was posting about new martial boxing system in australia. It combines muay thai, boxing, wing chun with groundwork and they apparently had been having success in MMA events. It makes sense, wing chun would be good for clinch range/near clinch range. But many times a good muay thai fighter will stay out of our ideal fighting range where out punches are much less effective. Therefore you'd need to train in a longer distance punching system, as we can't just charge in and go for throat or eyes in MMA...

[Mr Punch]

Hang on, who was it who was just b!tching about other wing chun people...?

Oh yeah. 'Silent' 'Warrior'.

Won much NHB have we? Link to Sherdog or similar appreciated.

[couch]

We have a pact at my kung-fu school. If I see Frank Shamrock or similar in the bar and accidentally bump into him, I'm going to buy him a beer.

I don't train 8 hours a day for a profession. I train in Wing Chun for a few hours a week. Why? To maximize my chances of a confrontation.

I'm not dilusional. If I'm faced with a large MMA champion, I'm going to still use the Wing Chun that I've learned...I'm going to talk my way out of a confrontation because I'm better than the fight itself. And if sh!t goes down...well...hopefully I'll have enough in my arsenal to get myself to safety. Not crush the guy...I said safety.

Honestly, I think beer is the best self-defense tool us Canadians have!!! :)

[negativecr33p]

Troll or no, he does pose a very valid question. One that I know keeps many from studying wing chun. I've seen two fighters in MMA events, both lost badly on the ground, and didn't even show anything remotely impressive standing up. The excuse that wing chun is not a competition art is bs. Not fighting is a new thing for all martial arts. In china, in the past, challenge matches were a regular occurance, and a necessity to proving your worth as a martial artist and/or a teacher. I feel wing chun would benefit tremendously from a representative in MMA, and without it, I doubt it will continue to grow much, as there is no proof of it's effectiveness in a real fight. The bs about it "being to deadly" just doesn't make any sense. Everyone can gouge eyes, kick to the groin, and strike the throat. If it's truely effective, it should be able to be used in the ring.

[Silent Warrior]

Troll or no, he does pose a very valid question. One that I know keeps many from studying wing chun. I've seen two fighters in MMA events, both lost badly on the ground, and didn't even show anything remotely impressive standing up. The excuse that wing chun is not a competition art is bs. Not fighting is a new thing for all martial arts. In china, in the past, challenge matches were a regular occurance, and a necessity to proving your worth as a martial artist and/or a teacher. I feel wing chun would benefit tremendously from a representative in MMA, and without it, I doubt it will continue to grow much, as there is no proof of it's effectiveness in a real fight. The bs about it "being to deadly" just doesn't make any sense. Everyone can gouge eyes, kick to the groin, and strike the throat. If it's truely effective, it should be able to be used in the ring.
About time! a man with sence not hiding behind the bs

[Thaegen]

Wing Tsun is not too deadly to be used in the ring, but not everyone wants to be a pro fighter.

The only thing that matters is that when you train WT, you and only you need to believe in it. I personally believe WT kicks ass.

[azwingchun]

If it's truely effective, it should be able to be used in the ring.

I think you may have answered your own doubt?!?!?!?! Ask yourself why there are rules against this type of thing. Why can't you use small joint manipulation and eye gouges if they don't work? Seems to me, if they are such crap and not effective they should be allowed.

[anerlich]

A number of fighters from my organisation have competed successfully - and recently - in kickboxing, MMA, and BJJ.

My instructor had 100+ amateur kickboxing fights and 37 pro fights, winning the vast majority.

[negativecr33p]

I think you may have answered your own doubt?!?!?!?! Ask yourself why there are rules against this type of thing. Why can't you use small joint manipulation and eye gouges if they don't work? Seems to me, if they are such crap and not effective they should be allowed.

I never said they don't work. The reason you can't use them is because of obvious reasons. Fighters would run the risk of being blinded, and small joint manipulation can result in permanenant injury to the fingers, easily. My point, was that these are techniques that do NOT have to be trained to be used. Two fighters of equal skill level could employ them just as easily, no matter with they practiced boxing, wing chun, or even taekowndo. It in no way makes an martial art "effective". And anyway, san shou competitions allow eye gouges, and groin shots. Not sure about small joint manipulation. But these are still not techniques that are relied upon in these competitions. Because they are in no way fool proof. Anyone who claims these are the reasons wing chun does not work in a competitive setting are just perpetuating the belief that kung fu and TMAs in general are just making up excuses.

[negativecr33p]

Wing Tsun is not too deadly to be used in the ring, but not everyone wants to be a pro fighter.

The only thing that matters is that when you train WT, you and only you need to believe in it. I personally believe WT kicks ass.


Now, I am not disputing the effectiveness of wing chun, but I ask this question purely out of curiosity. Is this based on your personal experiences, ie. fights that you have been in? And if so, were these fights with someone who had trained in other fighting systems as much as you have/had trained in wing chun? Personal faith can go a long way. I even believe in the proper circumstances it can make the differance. And don't tell me every single wing chun practioner has simply decided they do not wish to become a pro fighter. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Edmund]

Now, I am not disputing the effectiveness of wing chun, but I ask this question purely out of curiosity. Is this based on your personal experiences, ie. fights that you have been in? And if so, were these fights with someone who had trained in other fighting systems as much as you have/had trained in wing chun? Personal faith can go a long way. I even believe in the proper circumstances it can make the differance. And don't tell me every single wing chun practioner has simply decided they do not wish to become a pro fighter. It just doesn't make any sense.

You blind?

There's a few posts just above stating that there are fighters competing.

There's been lots of posts previously about WC guys doing all sorts of ring fights.

I think Silent Warrior (and negativecr33p) don't read the forum.

The most smack talking recently was from HIM!

[negativecr33p]

You blind?

There's a few posts just above stating that there are fighters competing.

There's been lots of posts previously about WC guys doing all sorts of ring fights.

I think Silent Warrior (and negativecr33p) don't read the forum.

The most smack talking recently was from HIM!



Not blind, first post was just clarifying my argument. Second one I was just asking a question about the blind faith many have in TMAs. That is all. Perhaps if more wing chun practitioners are motivated to compete, the whole system as a whole will benefit.

[Edmund]

Not blind, first post was just clarifying my argument. Second one I was just asking a question about the blind faith many have in TMAs. That is all. Perhaps if more wing chun practitioners are motivated to compete, the whole system as a whole will benefit.

Read the forum before you assume no one competes. I know we lost a lot of posts recently but regardless... You shouldn't assume.

To add to the WC results, a student of ours won a local amateur muay thai title a couple of weeks ago.

[stricker]

I'm stoked that there are people doing amatuer fights and doing well, but the fact that a wing chun guy aint won a ufc doesnt mean a thing bad about wing chun. For every thousands of thai or bjj fighters out there very very few make it to ufc. So few wing chun people tournment fight at all so it makes sense there havent been any ufc winners yet.

[lawrenceofidaho]

you're judging WC because the practitioners don't compete in tournaments that the WC community as a whole seems uninterested in?
It puzzles me that the WC community is NOT interested in those events.......WC is (supposedly) a fighting art, so why shouldn't it's adherants be interested in what some of the best fighters on the planet are doing when they mix it up?

-Lawrence

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Lawrence, some people want to fight professionally. Those people have to devote lots of time training. Unless you're well off you'll need a sponsor of some sort. If the average working Joe fights and gets hurt how will he take care of bills? So people who say the any martial art needs to be in the UFC/NBH, etc., have to take that into consideration. I do agree with you that some sort of training against a resisting opponent should be done so as not to have a false sense of security. What I've done with my students is them have them buy protective gear. That way they can go all out in safety and at least get an idea of how to deal with punches and how to issue power under pressure. I have to add that street fights don't always depend on skill. Anything can happen.
PR

[MSN13]

Well I think this thread was asking why no good repersentatives from Wing Chun
are not competeing in the UFC.

[Edmund]

Didn't some WC guy win in UK's Cage Rage or something?

Sigh. Guess some on the forum just have a bone to pick regardless of whatever WC people actually do.

[anerlich]

Well I think this thread was asking why no good repersentatives from Wing Chun are not competeing in the UFC.

Actually, the thread was a troll attempt and asking for trouble and not much else.

AS Phil said, to reach the elite level in MMA (UFC, Pride, etc.) you need to be training full time, to those rules. You also need to at least train grappling escapes and takedown and submission defense intensely even if you do not pursue submission grappling/BJJ.

Any WCer who wanted to compete in these events would need to cross train, and would be much better off doing that at an MMA gym. His WC training would have to go on the back burner.

"Pure" WC is a poor choice if your goal is world class MMA success. Doesn't mean it's no good for self-defense or other things.

Some of my sidais have competed successfully at MMA. But there's no way they would have succeeded without a solid grounding (no pun intended) in the BJJ which is also taught at our academies.

[MSN13]

The UFC is an excellent forum for knowing what works and what doesn't. If two highly-trained professionals can cream each other with it, a well trained ametuer should be able to fight off an untrained drunkard assailant. And if styles like Wing Chun are so effective, why aren't they dominating the UFC? It's the best legal proving grounds there is.

[Edmund]

It's the best legal proving grounds there is.

So is Cage Rage! :p

[anerlich]

And if styles like Wing Chun are so effective, why aren't they dominating the UFC? It's the best legal proving grounds there is.

I think I answered that already, but let me put it another way: you could replace "Wing Chun" with "boxing", "karate", "BJJ" (maybe not in 1994 but certainly now) in the above statement and it would be true. No pure stylists win in the UFC.

A professional MMA fighter needs to take skills from a variety of disciplines. That's why very few "purists" of any style are successful in elite MMA events these days.

If you still don't understand, I'll have to use words of one syllable. Unless I decide you're just trolling, in which case I won't bother.

[stricker]

I think you might mean Sami Berik if you're talking about wing chun in Cage Rage. A few choice quotes from his website :

I think most people might miss what Wing Chun has to offer. I don't mean prancing about in the cage like zorro. The sensitivity drills it has alone, and taught me some angles of entry.

I have mainly used the approach of using Thai boxing with a Tai Chi structure, whilst Wing Chun for sensitivity and taking things as they come.

[lawrenceofidaho]

some sort of training against a resisting opponent should be done so as not to have a false sense of security. What I've done with my students is them have them buy protective gear. That way they can go all out in safety and at least get an idea of how to deal with punches and how to issue power under pressure.
Phil,

When I referred to the wing chun community's general lack of interest in UFC/NHB/MMA , I didn't necessarily mean that I feel the majority of WC folks ought to enter those events as competitors, but it would be a great help for more WC schools to begin integrating at least some of the training methods (if not techniques) of proven fighters who are testing their craft in that arena (as it sounds you are doing already).

If one trains like a fighter, and continually works against realistic techniques thrown at them by other fighters, their style or system will adapt and become more pragmatic and combat effective.

Adapting and evolving is a key advantage of MMA. -If a new technique or strategy is employed in a widely televised competition, then the following week there will be thousands of people working on this new stuff, and also how to defend it. There will be talk of it on forums of how to take it further, and improve upon it. Wheras, unfortunately, WC is often trained almost exactly how it was in HK in the 1960s. MMA provides a great model of success in producing high level fighters, and I think WC would do well to try and learn from it so that, it too, can go forward.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Wheras, unfortunately, WC is often trained almost exactly how it was in HK in the 1960s.

I don't think so. There's plenty of WC people who have evolved new training methods worldwide. Whether others take any interest in what they're doing is up to them. People are going to click with certain philosophies and not others.

I occasionally mention Muay Thai on this forum and not everyone is going to be interested. I expect that. Some people are heading into different avenues. (The i-ching for instance. :rolleyes: )

[Ravenshaw]

The only reason I say there seems to be little interest among WC groups in competing in NHB is that I don't hear about (m)any who do. I think it mostly has to do with the fact that muay thai, judo, etc. are either sports or highly encourage competition as its primary application. The WT I practice has been used successfully in competition (and I'm sure other WC groups can say the same), but self-defense is emphasized.

Also, most people who kickbox don't even compete in kickboxing tournaments... so there's still only a small percentage who would want to do UFC. The main difference is that far more kickboxers compete in general than WC guys.

[sihing]

I don't think so. There's plenty of WC people who have evolved new training methods worldwide. Whether others take any interest in what they're doing is up to them. People are going to click with certain philosophies and not others.

I occasionally mention Muay Thai on this forum and not everyone is going to be interested. I expect that. Some people are heading into different avenues. (The i-ching for instance. :rolleyes: )

I agree...Lawerence is mistaken if he thinks ALL Wing Chun Masters and Sifu's are training like it was in the 60's, lol. But writing on this forum does nothing to prove otherwise so why waste the time...

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

I agree...Lawerence is mistaken if he thinks ALL Wing Chun Masters and Sifu's are training like it was in the 60's, lol. But writing on this forum does nothing to prove otherwise so why waste the time...

James
What are some of the major improvements and refinements made to WC training methodologies made since GM Yip Man taught guys like Wong, Cheung, and Lee?

I am not trying to be cynical. I am asking sincerely. (I just don't think there is anywhere near the kind of innovation that is going on in MMA.)

I am originally from a WT background and thus having a bit more exposure to that lineage than to others, I'll offer a couple of possible examples....... Sifu Emin's anti-grappling program might fall into that category, and possibly Sifu K's "Blitzdefense" (although to me it seems to mostly be a repackaging of Geoff Thompson stuff using WT terminology, it is still an attempt at updating and making the art more practical.)

What might be some other examples?

A catch-22 here is that to some traditionalists, any improvements or changes designed to increase the level of performance are often viewed as "style-mixing" or "watering down", and that if one really knew the true secrets of wing chun , none of that "other stuff" would be necessary. -That is what I feel is most unfortunate........

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Well the most obvious thing is that plenty more cross training in other styles is done by WC guys now then ever previously happened in the "60's".

There are WC people who do the style mixing you're talking about. Incorporating styles that "60's" guys never had a lot of access to like MT, BJJ, wrestling, escrima, etc. A lot of equipment from other styles are happily incorporated by WC guys like pads, focus mits, punching bags, kali sticks, headgear, mats and various gloves.

People are competing in all sorts of events. Despite some claims on this thread that it never happens.

As they do these sorts of things, they are going to evolve their training methodologies as a matter of course. It doesn't have to be some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale to be a methodology.

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines, sports conditioning etc. These are evolutions of another kind.

It seems to me you advocate progressiveness but then don't want to acknowledge anyone's efforts.

[lawrenceofidaho]

It doesn't have to be some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale to be a methodology.
Apparently, WT can't help but package things that way........

[lawrenceofidaho]

Well the most obvious thing is that plenty more cross training in other styles is done by WC guys now then ever previously happened in the "60's".

There are WC people who do the style mixing you're talking about. Incorporating styles that "60's" guys never had a lot of access to like MT, BJJ, wrestling, escrima, etc.
I am a style mixer myself, and I feel this is the best way to go for someone who seeks to develop well-rounded fighting skill.

While training in BJJ, etc. might help an individual fighter evolve and refine his or her own personal style, it doesn't necessarly do anything to help further the art WC as a whole. :(

A lot of equipment from other styles are happily incorporated by WC guys like pads, focus mits, punching bags, kali sticks, headgear, mats and various gloves.
BJJ has doubled it's depth and scope in the past decade; branching successfully into no-gi grappling, vale tudo, self defense specialization, etc. There are new positions (x-guard, rubberguard, etc.) and submissions (Eddie Bravo seems to be the most prolific) being created (and used succesfully in competitions) on a regular basis.

Greco Wrestling has effectively adapted it's uses of; the clinch, underhooks, and takedowns to be very effective in self defense and MMA.

Muay Thai has been modified and used with great success in both MMA and more limited striking competitions such as K-1.

MMA specialists at the Straight Blast Gym are integrating key concepts such as "aliveness" and "progressive resistance" into their training.

Yet if Wing Chun's only boast of evolution is "We use more modern padded equipment now." -then that is a tragedy :(

People are competing in all sorts of events. Despite some claims on this thread that it never happens.
The few who are competing are the ones who need to be guiding Wing Chun's next generation. Not the traditional "establishment" guys who only care about building some petty Wing Chun mini-empire.

As they do these sorts of things, they are going to evolve their training methodologies as a matter of course.
I believe the future of WC is in the hands of the cross-trainers, and the old; "WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years.

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines

Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that. :cool:

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like.......sports conditioning etc. These are evolutions of another kind.
This is one area that has shown itself to consistantly increase performance, yet the wing chun people exploring this are still a minority.

It seems to me you advocate progressiveness but then don't want to acknowledge anyone's efforts.
I am happy to acknowledge the efforts of those who are trying to intelligently evolve wing chun into an effective fighting art for the 21st century. I just think that they are (sadly) only a handful, and that there is way too much resistance from their wing chun "peers" to almost everything they try to do.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

Yet if Wing Chun's only boast of evolution is "We use more modern padded equipment now." -then that is a tragedy :(



Talk about tearing a sentence out of it's context! I never EVER said it was the only "boast of evolution". I gave a number of progressive ideas and you quote ONE and say that it's the only new idea. The only tragedy is your argument.

WC People use the newer equipment to implement the new ideas.
Mats for grappling. Sticks for weapons training. Bags for striking.

Nothing's holding anyone back. People have been doing all that you advocate already. And they are going to continue to while you ignore them.



Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that. :cool:


What you've seen doesn't seem to be much at all.

Personally I have done weight training for years and I KNOW plenty on this forum who do all sorts of sports conditioning. I competed in gymnastics as a teenager and hence know something about acrobatics. I have also done yoga for quite a few years and I know others have on this forum. I have learnt qigongs from various qigong guys and I know others here have as well. Traditional Chinese medicines and Western medicine are certainly discussed here in passing.

I think all these topics have been discussed lots of times here and they will continue to be. A lot of people here have been exploring so much into all sorts of areas and you don't know about it until you bring it up.

You'd be suprised how diverse a knowledge base WC people as a collective have.


I am happy to acknowledge the efforts of those who are trying to intelligently evolve wing chun into an effective fighting art for the 21st century. I just think that they are (sadly) only a handful, and that there is way too much resistance from their wing chun "peers" to almost everything they try to do.


Like I said, not everyone is going to be interested in everything new you do.
Some things will click for some and not others. It's not a conspiracy to resist change.

I've learnt some wushu from the ex head coach of the Beijing Wushu Team but would anyone here care? No.

Similarly I trained Muay Thai for a little while with Paul Briggs who lost the WBC light heavyweight boxing title fight against Adamek on the Brewster-Golata card.
Would anyone care about that? Not many.

[anerlich]

And there are WC people exploring other aspects like health, looking into qigongs, yoga, alternative medicines

Well, that's true ... but I think it's interesting that this sort of thing seems to be more accepted than style mixing, though arguably it's the same sort of thing.

Anything WC related I have ever seen on those topics is an instance of your own complaint "some formal PROGRAM with a naff name and a series of instructional videos for sale" , -and ineffective ones, at that.

I think that's true, too ... despite the insistence of some, I've seen little evidence that WC has anything of its own in the way of health cultivation. Most WC substyles that teach this in my experience teach basic derivative exercises from other styles of KF, thus making the "purist" tag pretty inappropriate.

And, to illustrate Lawrence's point, a couple of stories:

My first instructor learned TWC from William Cheung in the 1960's, after gaining Dan ranks in Goju Ryu Karate (nidan) and JJJ. He also trained in CLF and Northern Sil Lum, and now teaches an eclectic style.

He showed a fairly basic Sil Lum qigong form, which I also learned, free of charge, to a fairly high profile WC exponent here, who offers a wide variety of programs, vids, etc. Within a few months, said WC guy is advertising "Executive Health Programs" based around this qigong form, at exporbitant rates Like AUD $1200 per course.

One of his students also trained at a WC school in another city. My first instuctor has a JJJ black belt, and the Sil Lum system he trained in includes a sophisticated integrated grappling system itself (standup grappling, not much groundwork). His student showed the WC instructor a couple of grappling related moves - the WC instructor tried to get him to change schools, become an instructor under him, etc. Lo and behold, a few months later the WC instructor appears in an article in an Aussie MA rag here, titled "Wing Chun Grappling" - showing the exact same moves the student demonstrated to him, and nothing else of substance.

It is this sort of shenanigans that gives WC, and KF in general, a bad name. and my instructor's a Gwailo and both the other guys were HK Chinese! So much for the ultra-importance of lineage.

I agree with Lawrence about BJJ and innovation. Every couple of months someone seems to invent a new type of guard, sweep, setup, etc. One of my favorite DVD's is by a couple of brown belts just showing off stuff they came up with mucking around, and with their kids' classes. Just to watch the fruits of creativity and open-mindedness is inspirational. Some think "straying from the path" leads to watering down of the art, but the BJJ experience demonstrates the exact opposite. Strength comes from innovation at least as much as transmission. BJJ claims mixing and modification as string points, not dilution.

Too much TMA IMO sticks with the "transmission" model, where inviolate secrets are passed down a discrete lineage, and transgressors are shunned as heritics who have crossed to the Dark Side of Qi.

You are responsible for your own development. Why live your life according to someone else's script? Think for yourself. Create.

BTW, Lawrence, thanks for all those links, etc. you sent me. Excellent stuff.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Talk about tearing a sentence out of it's context! I never EVER said it was the only "boast of evolution". I gave a number of progressive ideas and you quote ONE and say that it's the only new idea. The only tragedy is your argument.
Sorry if it seemed that I was summing up your entire post as such. -I feel you made many good points, but unfortunately what you refer to as good examples of wing chun progressiveness seem to only be present in a small segment of the wing chun community.

Personally I have done weight training for years and I KNOW plenty on this forum who do all sorts of sports conditioning. I competed in gymnastics as a teenager and hence know something about acrobatics. I have also done yoga for quite a few years and I know others have on this forum. I have learnt qigongs from various qigong guys and I know others here have as well. Traditional Chinese medicines and Western medicine are certainly discussed here in passing..
I would not argue that there is a high level of interest around those things in the WC community, but how much do they really help improve anyone's wing chun fighting ability? (sports conditioning excluded) -I don't mean to say that they are not interesting endeavors, but I feel they have little to contribute to an individual's performance when it comes to sparring / fighting / combat application. In my opinion, they are often a distraction from spending time engaging in more fruitful activity (assuming one's goal is to develop some realistic fighting skill.)

Like I said, not everyone is going to be interested in everything new you do.
Of course not, but for those who are interested in performance as a martial artist, they will usually listen to an person who is sharing something that has helped contributed to their success in an arena of tough competition.

I've learnt some wushu from the ex head coach of the Beijing Wushu Team but would anyone here care? No.
Maybe not from the point of view of a fighter, but Wushu is a beautiful discipline, and I admire the dedication and conditioning it requires to do it well.

Similarly I trained Muay Thai for a little while with Paul Briggs who lost the WBC light heavyweight boxing title fight against Adamek on the Brewster-Golata card. Would anyone care about that? Not many.
I do. -I'm sorry I missed the Brewster-Golota card. -I haven't seen Paul fight before, but I respect someone who has the drive and ability to get to that level in combat sports. That's cool to have had an opportunity to train with a high level fighter for a while.

Edmund, I feel that you and I agree on probably a lot more than you think, but I believe that acting as an apologist for wing chun and saying that it's evolving just fine is doing it a disservice. I think it needs to be criticized and challenged in order to grow as a fighting art.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

I would not argue that there is a high level of interest around those things in the WC community, but how much do they really help improve anyone's wing chun fighting ability? (sports conditioning excluded) -I don't mean to say that they are not interesting endeavors, but I feel they have little to contribute to an individual's performance when it comes to sparring / fighting / combat application. In my opinion, they are often a distraction from spending time engaging in more fruitful activity (assuming one's goal is to develop some realistic fighting skill.)


Well believe it or not, wrestlers from former Soviet block countries warm up with gymnastics tumbling routines. This gives them a lot of nimbleness, coordination and balance. I hear Rickson Gracie does a lot of yoga for breathing, strength and flexibility conditioning. As do other BJJ guys. So what's a distraction to you is not to others in the realistic fighting community.


Edmund, I feel that you and I agree on probably a lot more than you think, but I believe that acting as an apologist for wing chun and saying that it's evolving just fine is doing it a disservice. I think it needs to be criticized and challenged in order to grow as a fighting art.


Oh I'm a big criticizer myself. But I think I've moved beyond what you're saying. There's interest in fighting in WC already. A troll like Silent Warrior isn't going to generate more.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Well believe it or not, wrestlers from former Soviet block countries warm up with gymnastics tumbling routines. This gives them a lot of nimbleness, coordination and balance. .
In their case, it is an intelligent choice for a conditioning activity, as it helps increase explosive power as well as controlled strength. -Yet, put a tumbling and gymnastics program in a traditional martial arts school (where there is no realistic sparring), and everyone there begins speculating on how they are going to use these "cool new moves" when they kick the a$$es of multiple armed attackers out on the street. :rolleyes:

I hear Rickson Gracie does a lot of yoga for breathing, strength and flexibility conditioning. As do other BJJ guys. So what's a distraction to you is not to others in the realistic fighting community.
I trust that someone with the experience and "results-oriented" mentality of a Rickson, or a world-class Soviet wrestler is going to make reasonably intelligent choices about what to include in their own training programs, -but what is suspect about the average John or Jane Doe who trains at the McKwoon down the street taking up yoga is that it is often chosen, not because they have weighed the tangible benefits of it against other conditioning activities they might undertake, but because it is; eastern, exotic, and has an aura of mystical asian glamour about it. The McKwoons take advantage of this kind of naievity and cash in on it, so it is not in their interest to rebut this sort of ridiculous behavior and educate people. -As a result, there is another generation of rather inept martial artists being created that are likely going to be in for a rude shock should they ever have to actually use their "skills" to fight.

Oh I'm a big criticizer myself. But I think I've moved beyond what you're saying.
I don't doubt that you have, but there are a number of people who will still benefit greatly from having the brainwashing and propaganda they've been fed being openly challenged until they can see it for what it is.

-Lawrence

[Edmund]

To The Top
(For the newbies who can't browse the forum properly)

[Jason Martell]

Ultimate Fighting is way different from acting in self defense. In self defense if you grab someone's arm you might break it, but in UF you use it to take them to the ground and it becomes a ground fight. You can take out knees. In UF your goal is to hold them on the ground for five minutes or try to knock them unconcious, while in self defense your goal is to stop your attacker from continuing to attack you as fast as possible, by disabling him. knocking them unconcious is not the only possible way to win a fight.

[Fajing]

Ultimate Fighting is way different from acting in self defense. In self defense if you grab someone's arm you might break it, but in UF you use it to take them to the ground and it becomes a ground fight. You can take out knees. In UF your goal is to hold them on the ground for five minutes or try to knock them unconcious, while in self defense your goal is to stop your attacker from continuing to attack you as fast as possible, by disabling him. knocking them unconcious is not the only possible way to win a fight.


Very true Jason! I agree. In real life it's about surviving and is definitely no holds barred. ANYTHING GOES!!

[Jason Martell]

yeah an eye gouge will stop your attacker, while they could just plow right through a punch to the eye and hit you anyways. In a fight, it can come down to who lands the first devestating strike, while in Ultimate Fighting you get several second chances, to take control and win. If you get their arm in a hold you can break it on the street. but in UF it goes to the ground, and then it all comes down to who's the better ground fighter, when the other guy could have just won by snapping your arm. I'm not dissing UF, those are brave honorable fighters who love to compete, and they train real hard, and I don't doubt that those guys could kill me in a street fight. but it's different then real fighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I believe the future of WC is in the hands of the cross-trainers, and the old; "WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years." (lawrenceofidaho)


***AGREED. :)

[WingChunTao]

The Dream Police called and are looking for their dream back!!!

[Edmund]

The Dream Police called and are looking for their dream back!!!

(Cue Hendrick to quote the entire lyrics for "Dream Police" by Cheap Trick. :) )

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey, WingChunTao:

Want to know why no wing chun fighter has ever won a single match in a UFC or PRIDE type fighting event?

Because wing chun, of and by itself, is almost exclusively a standup, INFIGHTING striking and kicking game.

Which means that it concentrates it's expertise almost exclusively to a certain aspect and situational RANGE of fighting.

And the trend in the martial arts world today...as it will continue to be 5-10-15-20 years from now is to crosstrain, so that MANY situational aspects and ranges of fighting are developed.

The 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's are over, when wing chun, in it's various forms and phases really flourished and was accepted by many as some sort of advanced fighting art just as it was.

Those days are gone - and they're not coming back anytime soon.

When the UFC began in 1993, and lo and behold, a grappler-type from Brazil named Royce Gracie won 3 out of the first 4 events with his familly's version of jiu jitsu - the whole martial art world made a huge right turn down a different and more advanced path.

In point of fact, though, and IRONIC as it is to the context of this present discussion, it was a heavily influenced by wing chun fighter/practitioner named Bruce Lee (you've heard of him :confused: :D ) who actually laid the groundwork in the late 60's and early 70's for what was to follow in the 1990's - as his Jeet Kune Do approach was the epitome of crosstraining experimentation and excellence (along with a here-to-fore unheard of emphasis on physical conditioning within any other part of the wing chun world).

NOW...BACK TO THE FUTURE! :p

[Chum Kil]

For what it's worth, Wing Chun in the street, ring. I would not want to face Matt Hughes, the guy is a pitbull. I would love to see a (What ever MA you want to put in this spot) face off against Matt.

[WingChunTao]

Fighting in the ring and fighting in the streets are two different things. In the streets there are no rules, referees, judges or score cards. Try to be 60, 70, or 80 year old man and grapple, go to the ground or what ever. Or even be any of those ages and go to the ground, and while you are on the ground the guy you are grappling with buddies, thugs, whatever are pounding on you, beating you with clubs, knives, sticks etc.... Anyway, most people do not train to fight in UFC, Pride, the ring or whatever.

Riddle me this: Why are there no 40, 50, or 60 years old guys fighting in the UFC or Pride? Why? Because it takes alot of strength to grapple and keep it up for a long period of time. Everyone know that as we age that bone density and muscle strength disipates.

As far as 'Brues Lee', who the world loves (myself included), he never finished training in Wing Chun so he had to find other arts to supplement the gaps. I'm not trying to bust anyones's chops, but when I hear/read things like "wing chun won't last for another 20 years" then this is disturbing to me. We can't just disregard thousands of years of Chinese martial history, just because there is a new kid on the block. I'm not knocking cross-training at all. Martial arts would not have survived this long without interaction. "We must know our history to know our Future".

[anerlich]

Fighting in the ring and fighting in the streets are two different things.

This old chestnut.

http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm

Try to be 60, 70, or 80 year old man and grapple, go to the ground or what ever. Or even be any of those ages and go to the ground, and while you are on the ground the guy you are grappling with buddies, thugs, whatever are pounding on you, beating you with clubs, knives, sticks etc.... Anyway, most people do not train to fight in UFC, Pride, the ring or whatever.

I think an old man will be at just of much of a disadvantage with a striking art, brittler bones, muscle wasting, etc. and will be easier to take down as well. Once down there, he'd want to have some skills for use in a defense situation. Just because you want to stay on your feet doesn't mean that you will.

Riddle me this: Why are there no 40, 50, or 60 years old guys fighting in the UFC or Pride?

Bzzzt. Incorrect. Randy Couture, for one.

I don't see many "older" K1, ring karate, boxing, San Shou fighters in these age brackets either. Age slows you down whatever you do. The old guys fighting off 20 or so blackguards at once exist only in HK movies. Pro fighting, with few exceptions is a young man's sport ,whatever the discipline and rules.

If you get better at WC with age, and MMA is crap as some say, any of the WC grandmasters should be able to enter the UFC and win easily. It hasn't happened, and it never will either.

We can't just disregard thousands of years of Chinese martial history, just because there is a new kid on the block.

Ju Jitsu is older than WC. Wrestling is the earliest recorded MA on the planet.

[Edmund]

I don't see many "older" K1, ring karate, boxing, San Shou fighters in these age brackets either.


There's Ernesto Hoost and Branko Cikatic, I suppose.
They were 39 and 38 respectively when they won K1.

Not really sure why people's ages are even brought up.
Helio Gracie is pretty **** old and he's still doing his thing too.
Royler Gracie is still fighting occasionally and he's 40.

Anyway the ACTUAL statement was:
"WC is the ultimate art and doesn't need anything else." -won't last another 20 years.

I don't particularly agree with the 20 year time frame. I actually don't think it's going to change that much in 20 years. While I think there are progressive WC thinkers I don't think it's going to be that fast a change. (Lawrence, on the other hand, thinks it's all going to change in 20 years BUT it's not progressive enough!)

Not that many people care about MMA. Not that many people care about any form of martial arts. Of those who do WC, few care about MMA. MMA is not a participation sport. It takes a level of conditioning that most people don't have and won't get without a body transplant. I think that's what WingChunTao is getting at. WC is more doable/accessible.

That sort of broad appeal is good for WC. I'd like to see it building on that appeal and, while still teaching it's traditional things, it could also expand it's repertoire.

[sihing]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question? They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective? I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible. All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do. Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well. Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing. It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest and it’s the wave of the future BS. I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families. But I know nothing so continue on with the regularly scheduled program..........

James

[WingChunTao]

detroitwingchun.com (www.detroitwingchun.com) You are missing the point. One can't rely on physical strength especially later in life. One can't UFC, full contact or whatever at 60, 70, 80, or 90 years old (most people don't practice martial arts for this reason).

Physical strength will disipate with age but if you practice Iron Shirt, Chi Gong, or any other Internal Martial art this process will be slowed down. That is why the above was created and expanded on by Daoist (1st) and Shaolin Monks (2nd) all those years ago. To keep muscle and bone density and the whole body supple.

Chang San Feng's Internal ideas/principals still live on today and have been used in the past (History) by poeple like: Yip Man, Dao Mo, Eddie Chong, Agustine Fong, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung, Woo Fai Ching, Sun Lu Tang or any other Internal Martial Artist throughout history.

They all have (Above names) what 'Bruce Leroy' was searching for in the movie 'The Last Daragon' the "Glow". "Is it in Ya".
And since many of us Internal Artists (Grandmasters included) spend our time cultivating these Ideas along with our Mind, Body and Spirit we don't bother with UFC pipe dreams. Really, Have you ever taken down a man, old or young, who has Internal power. It is pretty darn hard. If one practices this stuff then eventually one will get the "GLOW"

"Riddle me this" should have read "why are ther no 50, 60, or 70 yr. old guys fighting in UFC or Pride" But i will give you 'Couture'.

As you said, "Pro fighting is a young mans sport" and we should leave it to the young men, whatever the discipline or rules. Anyone can cross-train all they want but, as one ages and there is no supplementing the training with Chi Gong, Iron Shirt or any of the Internal methods then it "may" be hard to grapple, hold, or take down whomever one is fighting. Doe you as a MMA practice Internal methods?

Like I said, you "Can't Disregard 2-3 thousand years of Chinese Martial History and Tradition". "Our Past Is Our Future". Wing Chun is new compared to other martial styles, but it, like all other Asian-based martial arts share one common denominator. They all have and share the same 2-3 thousand year old Chinese History and Traditon as its foundation. Even MMA has its History and Foundations. Do we disregard that too?

I must go now. Must continue the search for the "Glow"

[Edmund]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question?


Of course not.


They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective? I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible.


Great. I agree.


All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do. Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well. Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing.

Isn't that what we're saying?
That's what we're doing right? Taking an interested WC students and training them similar intensity including grappling training.


It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest and it’s the wave of the future BS. I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families. But I know nothing so continue on with the regularly scheduled program..........


Sounds like you've just repeated what everyone else said in a huffy way.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Do you all really think WC has no answer to MMA? Do you all really think WC has no answer to the grappling question?
I believe that some WC has some answers to some MMA and grappling techniques........

They do have to get you on the ground first, and even when there you think if someone really put their minds to it they couldn't figure out how to deal with it all from a WC perspective?
Does anyone honestly believe that a fighter with more than 18 months of MMA experience hasn't dealt with a good striker before? Most MMA guys could easily stand toe-to-toe in a stand-up match with most WC guys of equal training time (even though the MMA guy spends much of his time training groundwork), because their MMA training is generally: tougher, more "alive", and more realistic.

I believe it does have all these things, and I also believe that yes it has to adapt to the changing environment in the Martial Arts world and that in 20yrs there will be improvement to the art, of course, but the basic concepts and principals will never change, and that is to end a confrontation quickly and with the most efficient and effective safe methods possible.
How progressive are the WC praticioners might be gauged on a spectrum........The most adapdable WC people might be on equal (or greater!) footing with the overall MMA community, -the semi-adaptable might be somewhat behind, while the non-adaptable begin to drift into obscurity.......

All this talk about how superior MMA is, really it is the individual and how they train that is the key here, not what they do.
I agree that it is not "the art".......
But MMA fighters train against skilled, vigorously resisting opponents on a regular basis. -How many WC people train this way?

Take an interested WC student with some natural ability and train them similar (meaning intensity not in the technique) to the MMA and they will do well.
Possibly somewhat better than purists from; TKD, Shotokan, Aikido, etc......

-I seriously doubt that (more than 10%-20% of) WC practicioners would be outperforming an equally trained MMA fighter.

Yes of course they will have to train to deal with the grappler by incorporating ground training but we have that in our system and ultimately the goal is to not stay on the ground and there are ways out of it, when done correctly and with the right timing.
While, of course, in MMA, a blue or purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu (or equivelant in another grappling art) might sometimes best a grappling black belt in a contest where strikes are allowed, it does not hold that a fighter with very little , or no actual grappling experience can overcome a skilled grappler who is shooting in for a takedown, or fighting with them on the ground.

MMA guys have good timing and reflexes too. (-Don't underestimate them or their adaptability.)

How many WC people get to defend against very skilled grapplers shooting in on them for takedowns? (While BBJ students and wrestlers with even low levels of experience get to train this on a regular basis.......)

It gets tiring hearing the same old same old MMA is the greatest
I think that most will acknowledge that MMA is (at this time) setting a standard for one-on-one fighting.

I respect the high-level MMA competitors because of their dedication to their arts and training intensity, but really to me this is the only thing that makes them better fighter, the fact that they have lots of training time in and the ability to train that much, which is not the luxury of the average MA, since most of us have full time jobs with families.
I disagree with this assessment, James.......
I feel that average MMA fighters will often be superior to average WC practicioners, -not because of amounts of training time or intensity, but because MMA fghters:
1) Work more "alive" drills with more realistic resistance.
2) Train often in more than one (or two) ranges, which perepares them well for more stages of a fight than (unmodified) Wing Chun does.
3) Learns the truth that good conditioning (strength, endurance, etc.) does make a significant difference in fighting applications.

-Lawrence

[whitefox]

Just because an individual can't pull off a certain WC technique (based on a principle) for whatever reason (be it lack of knowledge or physical restraints) does not mean that the principle/technique is flawed. Some people can and some people can't.

Incidentally, IMHO if someone trains 8 hours a day they are bound to get "good" at whatever they do. :)

Respectfully

[negativecr33p]

I believe that some WC has some answers to some MMA and grappling techniques........


Does anyone honestly believe that a fighter with more than 18 months of MMA experience hasn't dealt with a good striker before? Most MMA guys could easily stand toe-to-toe in a stand-up match with most WC guys of equal training time (even though the MMA guy spends much of his time training groundwork), because their MMA training is generally: tougher, more "alive", and more realistic.


How progressive are the WC praticioners might be gauged on a spectrum........The most adapdable WC people might be on equal (or greater!) footing with the overall MMA community, -the semi-adaptable might be somewhat behind, while the non-adaptable begin to drift into obscurity.......


I agree that it is not "the art".......
But MMA fighters train against skilled, vigorously resisting opponents on a regular basis. -How many WC people train this way?


Possibly somewhat better than purists from; TKD, Shotokan, Aikido, etc......

-I seriously doubt that (more than 10%-20% of) WC practicioners would be outperforming an equally trained MMA fighter.


While, of course, in MMA, a blue or purple belt in Jiu-Jitsu (or equivelant in another grappling art) might sometimes best a grappling black belt in a contest where strikes are allowed, it does not hold that a fighter with very little , or no actual grappling experience can overcome a skilled grappler who is shooting in for a takedown, or fighting with them on the ground.

MMA guys have good timing and reflexes too. (-Don't underestimate them or their adaptability.)

How many WC people get to defend against very skilled grapplers shooting in on them for takedowns? (While BBJ students and wrestlers with even low levels of experience get to train this on a regular basis.......)


I think that most will acknowledge that MMA is (at this time) setting a standard for one-on-one fighting.


I disagree with this assessment, James.......
I feel that average MMA fighters will often be superior to average WC practicioners, -not because of amounts of training time or intensity, but because MMA fghters:
1) Work more "alive" drills with more realistic resistance.
2) Train often in more than one (or two) ranges, which perepares them well for more stages of a fight than (unmodified) Wing Chun does.
3) Learns the truth that good conditioning (strength, endurance, etc.) does make a significant difference in fighting applications.

-Lawrence

Good post. Nice to see some kung fu people understand that it is primarily the way we train that keeps us from suceeding in fighting. I really believe we must adapt, surely the wing chun system looks much differant now than it did when ng miu and yim wing chun first developed it. In thousands of years, of course we're going to find more effective techniques. (the boxing guard??? hello????? it WORKS) Maybe work from a boxing guard. It's been proven to be generally, most effective....throw in your wing chun redirection, counter attacks, etc when the oppurtunity arises. Keep more of a distance until an oppurtunity for an attack arises...then move in, continue moving in, but at some point, it would be advantagous to intelligently retreat and wait for another oppurtunity. Just think outside the box. Wing chun is far from the end all to fighting. This, IMHO has virtually been proven. In THEORY it seems perfect. In THEORY communism is the ideal form of goverment. Quit theorizing, start fighting. Then theorize. Then fight some more. Of course if fighting isn't for you, you could always look to calculus and theorize somemore. If you're attacked by a mathemetician, I bet you'd beat their ass.

[Airdrawndagger]

Just keep training.
People will always talk.
People will always speculate.
People will always doubt.
This is our nature and is to be expected.
Listen to your heart(inner voice), it never lies.
Train hard. That is what is lacking from WC. The theory is flawless. The techs are flawless. The individual training curriculum is flawed.
Its real simple. The harder you train, the better you become.

[lawrenceofidaho]

if someone trains 8 hours a day they are bound to get "good" at whatever they do.
I agree that there is truth in your statement, but the problem is that someone training "old school" (i.e.- unmodified & unadapted) wing chun at the local McKwoon for 8 hours a day would only be getting good at.......performing drills which have little to do with fighting.

:(

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

In THEORY it seems perfect. In THEORY communism is the ideal form of goverment. Quit theorizing, start fighting. Then theorize. Then fight some more.
Thank you for emphasizing this. :)

It also made me think of something clever and cool that Andrew N. posted a while back that is worth repeating (paraphrased): "The gap between theory and practice is a lot smaller in theory than it is in practice."

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Listen to your heart(inner voice), it never lies.
I would say that this is apparently an elusive skill that requires a higher level of self-knowledge than the majority of people have available to them. The number of instances are inumerable where an individual made dreadful mistakes, which they end up deeply regretting later on, but at the time were made with full faith, and heartfelt confidence that they were absolutely doing the "right thing".

Maybe the key is to question and challenge ourselves more intensely rather than having "faith"?? :confused:

-Lawrence

[Tom Kagan]

Thank you for emphasizing this. :)

It also made me think of something clever and cool that Andrew N. posted a while back that is worth repeating (paraphrased): "The gap between theory and practice is a lot smaller in theory than it is in practice."

-Lawrence


Wait a minute...

Do you mean to say that someone actually reads my posts? (Who knew?)

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28961&page=5&pp=40

I don't have much vanity, so give me credit for this one. ;)


"I didn't say half the things I said." -- Yogi Berra

[Ali Rahim]

detroitwingchun.com (www.detroitwingchun.com) You are missing the point. One can't rely on physical strength especially later in life. One can't UFC, full contact or whatever at 60, 70, 80, or 90 years old (most people don't practice martial arts for this reason).

Physical strength will disipate with age but if you practice Iron Shirt, Chi Gong, or any other Internal Martial art this process will be slowed down. That is why the above was created and expanded on by Daoist (1st) and Shaolin Monks (2nd) all those years ago. To keep muscle and bone density and the whole body supple.

Chang San Feng's Internal ideas/principals still live on today and have been used in the past (History) by poeple like: Yip Man, Dao Mo, Eddie Chong, Agustine Fong, Leung Sheung, Duncan Leung, Woo Fai Ching, Sun Lu Tang or any other Internal Martial Artist throughout history.

They all have (Above names) what 'Bruce Leroy' was searching for in the movie 'The Last Daragon' the "Glow". "Is it in Ya".
And since many of us Internal Artists (Grandmasters included) spend our time cultivating these Ideas along with our Mind, Body and Spirit we don't bother with UFC pipe dreams. Really, Have you ever taken down a man, old or young, who has Internal power. It is pretty darn hard. If one practices this stuff then eventually one will get the "GLOW"

"Riddle me this" should have read "why are ther no 50, 60, or 70 yr. old guys fighting in UFC or Pride" But i will give you 'Couture'.

As you said, "Pro fighting is a young mans sport" and we should leave it to the young men, whatever the discipline or rules. Anyone can cross-train all they want but, as one ages and there is no supplementing the training with Chi Gong, Iron Shirt or any of the Internal methods then it "may" be hard to grapple, hold, or take down whomever one is fighting. Doe you as a MMA practice Internal methods?

Like I said, you "Can't Disregard 2-3 thousand years of Chinese Martial History and Tradition". "Our Past Is Our Future". Wing Chun is new compared to other martial styles, but it, like all other Asian-based martial arts share one common denominator. They all have and share the same 2-3 thousand year old Chinese History and Traditon as its foundation. Even MMA has its History and Foundations. Do we disregard that too?

I must go now. Must continue the search for the "Glow"


Good job,,”WingChunTao” on your presentation on explaining Chi Chung and age…

I think 98% of the people knows and believe in what you are saying…

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)

[Airdrawndagger]

I would say that this is apparently an elusive skill that requires a higher level of self-knowledge than the majority of people have available to them. The number of instances are inumerable where an individual made dreadful mistakes, which they end up deeply regretting later on, but at the time were made with full faith, and heartfelt confidence that they were absolutely doing the "right thing".

Maybe the key is to question and challenge ourselves more intensely rather than having "faith"?? :confused:

-Lawrence

People make mistakes all the time for "inumerable" reasons including trying to challenge themselves more intensely. But what is the driving force that stimulates us to further our practices?
You have to have faith in your abilities otherwise you will never reach a higher potential. If we are to challenge ourselves more intensely than what is the driving force behind the challenge? What is the motivation?
That we will become better at what we do by believing we can become better. Otherwise whats the point????? ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

You can still do chi gung if you crosstrain various arts so that you're covering all the bases: standup/clinch/ground.

And for that matter, people like jiu jitsu great Helio Gracie, who still rolls at age 90, and Catch Wrestling great Karl Gotch, who still gets on the mats at age 78, are two examples of martial artists who don't necessarily do chi gung, but their own versions of exercises and regimens that accomplish pretty much the same results seem to be working just fine. :D

[Ali Rahim]

Victor said:

And for that matter, people like jiu jitsu great Helio Gracie, who still rolls at age 90, and Catch Wrestling great Karl Gotch, who still gets on the mats at age 78, are two examples.

I got five on it,, that they can take a Championship today!!!! why shoo you right...

Ali Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://www.detroitwingchun.com)