Wing Chun Front Kick

[WingChunTao]

I was wondering about the different ways Wing Chun people execute a front kick. At first I was taught to raise the knee first, then kick the foot out to the target like in many martial arts styles I have seen. Now I have been taught to raise the foot up directly to the target. This (second way) seems to create a more direct line to the target. What are some thoughts on this.

[bonetone]

It depends on what you want to do with the kick, one way is more of a thrust, the other a lifting kick.

[anerlich]

If you want to get the quads and glutes (two largest muscles in the body) behind the kick, you need to raise the knee to some degree. to kick without some knee bend is to rely on the comparatively weak hip flexors. This may be good to get under a guard, and be less obviously telegraphed per some styles "rising kicks" but is only good for sensitive spots as it's hard to get any real power into it.

"Straight to the target" never really happens anyway, the path will just about always be some sort of an arc.

If you want to kick more than once before replacing the foot, you have to have at least some knee elevation. "Straight" Kicks without knee elevation really only work against low targets

A raised knee also acts as protection against incoming, per the WC maxim of simultaneous defense and attack.

[Nick Forrer]

Scroll down the page there is a link to an article by my teacher (wsl kicking methods)

[WingChunTao]

The knee does move but I am concentrating more so on the raising of the foot first, which causes the knee to raise a little as opposed to raising the knee first. I do keep the knee bent while doing the kick but I also concentrate on the foot more. When I front kick I am thinking about kicking to the mid section of the body or pelvis area.
It seems as though raising the knee first takes more time than raising the foot. I think a good Idea would be to video tape myself and then analyze it or find video of others kicking and do the same. Thanks guys!!!

[WingChunTao]

:cool: Thanks Nick. I just read the WSL article and it made perfect sense. The scientific break down really helped clear up any confusion. I'm going to keep practicing my front kicks in this manner. My sifu says the same thing " it is a much more stable kick and tremendous power can be executed from the stability it gives.

[anerlich]

I agree with a lot of the article, but the statements about the knee lift, then kick pushing you back and off balance where the other types of kick don't are not correct and sound rather straw mannish. Clive and WSL might be good at WC, but that article ain't so great at Newtonian physics.

When you kick - just about any straight line kick - you should be driving your hips forward into the target, otherwise you will get no power (no bodyweight behind the kick), and at point of contact the hips should be ahead of the supporting foot with the torso leaning back. In that configuration the recoil will drive through the supporting foot to the floor, whether the knee is lifted first or not. If your COG is behind the foot you will be pushed back. no matter what path your foot/knee travels in.

It is just as easy to do a bad kick for which the recoil will drive you back without the knee lift as it is with the knee lift. The knee lift itself has little to do with it.

This is really a continuum than a set of discrete extremes - I suspect my academy kicks with a greater knee lift, yours with a lesser. It is a question of degree rather than a fundamental difference. The knee lift and thrust are not done as two discrete phases, but as a single complex movement.

It seems as though raising the knee first takes more time than raising the foot. I think a good Idea would be to video tape myself and then analyze it or find video of others kicking and do the same.

Experimentation and measurement beat out theory every time. My instructor used to have an "Impax" bag which measures both elapsed/reaction time for delivery of blows and also power. If speed is your only concern, forget front kicks - a side kick beats it every time. I didn't believe it either, but measurement showed it to be the case for participants of all skill levels, beginner to elite. Plus the reach is longer, and more power is delivered. The only down side is that is a more complex movement to learn and requires a certain amount of flexibility.

[WingChunTao]

The kick you are talking about sounds more like a karate kick especially with driving the hips foreward into the target. I have experimented with what you have said and found that leaning the torso back and having the hip past the supporting leg didn't give me much stability. Also it didn't look much like Wing Chun. I also found that, Yes, you can get great power kicking like you mentioned but there wasn't any Chum in the support leg. With Chum in the support leg the recoil force will go into the ground giving better stability. Both methods work well but I am trying to stick to the Wing Chun principles and keep the kick as simple and direct as possible. Thanks for the info. Peace

[anerlich]

The kick you are talking about sounds more like a karate kick especially with driving the hips foreward into the target.

It's a stock standard TWC front kick. Maybe the fact that many styles' kicks look the same is because the configuration actually works?

I have experimented with what you have said and found that leaning the torso back and having the hip past the supporting leg didn't give me much stability.

Good for you. My experience is different, as is that of most of my training buds and seniors.

Also it didn't look much like Wing Chun.

It's the way the front kick is performed in Tradtional Wing Chun. Your opinions on its looking correct or otherwise are probably irrelevant to TWC practitioners. If something "looked like WC" but was crap would you still do it?

Yes, you can get great power kicking like you mentioned but there wasn't any Chum in the support leg. With Chum in the support leg the recoil force will go into the ground giving better stability.

Did you actually read my post? You can do a TWC front kick and the force goes into the ground just fine. Or at least my fellow academy students and I certainly can.

Both methods work well but I am trying to stick to the Wing Chun principles and keep the kick as simple and direct as possible.

The TWC front kick sticks to the Tradtional Wing Chun principles, and is simple and direct. And powerful and effective. Whether it meets your criteria of what WC is of minor concern to me, but you do whatever you want.

Thanks for the info.

If it's not what you wanted, you shouldn't have asked.

[Mr Punch]

I think the article Nick linked to is excellent, but I also agree with anerlich's analysis of it.

Incidentally we were taught both ways for different situations.

A front stop kick to the lower leg/shin would be straight out: you need the range and the rigidity helps to stop their kick before they can lean themselves into it. Anything close range (bearing in mind I will often want to 'kick with three legs') in a clinch, or to close range, or anything to set up a takedown, will want to be through bong gerk, even if it is barely perceptible as a complex single movement. tThis will enable me to put weight forward into their body without worr\ying about over committing because you can stick earlier. Also it portects your nuts and can easily be changed into a knee etc.

The kick you are talking about sounds more like a karate kick especially with driving the hips foreward into the target.maybe it sounds like that, but in wing chun I drive my hips more into the oppoentn than I ever did in karate. What else would you be doing? Leaning forward? Then tyou're ripe for sweeping or taking a shot to the chin...

Note anerlich was careful to say not to lean the COG past the supporting leg... so you're not leaning back past your hip, you're just actively NOT leaning forward... this means you can commit weight ot your kick without falling forwards, or planting your kicking foot too heavily. In effect, if I'm reading anerlich correctly, your hips are ahead of your supporting leg, and your torso is leaning back slightly to compensate: this means essentially you are pretty much upright.

I have experimented with what you have said and found that leaning the torso back and having the hip past the supporting leg didn't give me much stability. I think you're leaning too far back. Also it didn't look much like Wing Chun. Based on?I also found that, Yes, you can get great power kicking like you mentioned but there wasn't any Chum in the support leg. With Chum in the support leg the recoil force will go into the ground giving better stability. I suspaect you are losing the wing chun structure in your post leg, that's all. Back to YGKYM?! Turn in it, chum kiu with it and make sure in chum kiu when you kick before the stepping forward motion, make sure it's not justa static kick AND THEN stepping forward, make sure it'sd stepping into the kick from the back YGKYMed leg stance.

By the way, a straight legged kick will make a knee stomp much harder to receive if you fight someone who was well taught on the dummy and spars a lot, or any number of other CMAers, plus a sucker for the sidekick from karate, or the roundhouse from thai. Timing and range are important, before you start asking questions, ignoring the well-informed answers and throwing out absolute statements.

Excuse the typos, gotta dash.

[WingChunTao]

Anerlich/Mat. Yes as I said it does work but it is not as stable (no Chum). That is why our Wing Chun forefathers changed it. Chum is everything in Wing Chun. Without it all the energy is floating or riding high. Sinking of the Chi or Chum is necessary to create the proper balance and to insure that the energy received goes into the ground as musch as popssible. Every thing is relevant under the sun, even ones opinions. As far as something looking like Wing Chun and being crap, would I still do it? No. Because,"I ONLY PRACTICE WING CHUN" not other systems of martial arts. I only use and keep what is useful by experience and experimentation. Besides it is not my criteria it is the systems criteria an the systems (all) will be here longer than any of us. Peace

[Mr Punch]

That is why our Wing Chun forefathers changed it. ... Every thing is relevant under the sun, even ones opinions. ..."I ONLY PRACTICE WING CHUN" not other systems of martial arts. I only use and keep what is useful by experience and experimentation. Besides it is not my criteria it is the systems criteria an the systems (all) will be here longer than any of us.Incidentally we were taught both ways for different situations.Let's insert in my traditional Yip Man wing chun school somewhere here.

When I'm doing wing chun "I ONLY PRACTICE WING CHUN". When I'm doing MMA I do everything in my arsenal. I fail to see what your point is here. I haven't modified anything: I am doing the wing chun taught me by my teacher, by his teacher, by Yip Chun and Yip Ching, and by them by Yip Man. In it there are front kicks that also raise the knee. Do you not have bong gerk, or tan gerk?

Chum is everything in Wing Chun. Without it all the energy is floating or riding high. Sinking of the Chi or Chum is necessary to create the proper balance and to insure that the energy received goes into the ground as musch as popssible. You're talking theory. Anerlich, Nick and I are talking practice. I suspaect you are losing the wing chun structure in your post leg, that's all. Back to YGKYM?! Turn in it, chum kiu with it and make sure in chum kiu when you kick before the stepping forward motion, make sure it's not justa static kick AND THEN stepping forward, make sure it'sd stepping into the kick from the back YGKYMed leg stance.So how are you 'sinking your chum'?!

[_William_]

I do it similiar to the way Anerlich and Mat described. Try kicking a low wall-bag with your front kick: you will find that you need to drive off your back foot to lend support and power to the kick.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Haven't read the WSL article yet - and I will. Furthermore, since it's WSL, I'm sure there'll be some excellent information in it about throwing a front kick.

But in the meantime, after reading this thread, I'd like to say a few things about what I've found about kicking in my experience. First and foremost, I look upon kicking basically on a dual track. I use kicks as a way to:

1) Bridge the gap and get in to my opponent's space both safely, quickly, and hopefully by doing just enough damage so that I can continue taking it to him with my hands (in which case it's the speed and location of the kick that is most important, ie. low kicks) - and I find in this instance that raising the foot first and letting the knee rise incidentally is the FASTEST way to success...and...

2) I see kicking as either a followup to hand techniques (wherein power is the more important goal) and therefore I am more inclined to concentrate on getting the knee up and driving forward with more hips and body, as he has been set up for a more deliberate kick.

(The exception to this is when I've used hand/arm techniques as a means to gain ground but didn't necessarily connect with something that did any damage - but what it did do was get me close enough to followup with a kick - in which case the faster type of kick is the way to go.)

A third scenario is when there is simply an opening available without me having already set it up with hands - in which case I might use either way of kicking depending upon how much speed I think I need to cover the line and get in before he has a chance to counter.

Finally, in addition to several different types of front kicks, there are also variations of roundhouse kicks and sidekicks that I might use at any given moment - depending upon the situation, the angle, and the distance from the opponent.

[WingChunTao]

I didn't say either kicking method was more superior. I said that for me the kick wasn't as stable. For others, it may work that way. To each his own. Whatever works for you, works for you. I found it to be different for myself. We are all Wing Chun, just different wing chun approaches.

Sinking Chum or rooting (like a tree): Chum is sinking energy (gravity) pulling or pushing into the ground. When using Chum, say in a front kick, the support leg is bent, the back is straight, and the weight of the body sinks into the ground without compromising or losing the YGKYM structure. This keeps the force (energy) down toward the ground, not riding high or floating.
Chen style Tai Chi is a good example (different style, same concept) : Many of the poses are very low or sunken to the ground. This low sinking energy is what chum is all about.
Another example is YGKYM its self. Try standing in YGKYM and bend your knees. Now sink even further, then further etc... Do this without losing structure and relax.
Reasearch and experiment for yoursleves with chum. It's a theory and a concept when just talking about it, but when put it into use it is praxis (theory into practice).

(UltimateWingChun's Post) This is the kind of info I am asking for. Different systems ideas and approaches to wing chun without one being any more superior than the other. Peace

[anerlich]

This is the kind of info I am asking for. Different systems ideas and approaches to wing chun without one being any more superior than the other.

Actually, you're the *only* one saying your way is superior.

You're saying - from a base of ignorance - that Mat's, William's, and my front kicks have no Chum, you have incorrectly assumed we don't know what that is (twice!), and you won't accept info or opinion that disagrees with your world view.

You say in your profile your learning is just beginning ... but you've apparently already decided you know it all - a most unlikely prospect.

There are several ways to kick - each applies better or worse in different situations and for different people. And each may fit in better to a certain stylistic whole (e.g. WSL or TWC).

You kicking method has some advantages (and disadvantages) - but your narrow mindedness has none.

[Mr Punch]

Go easy on him anerlich, maybe English isn't his first language... :rolleyes:

wing chun tao, I suggested that you go back to ygjkm to learn how to root (use your chum) when doing the kick that anerlich and I described. Then I asked you to stop just throwing the word chum around and to tell us what you do physically to root when you're kicking, in an attempt to find out why you can't do the simple kick that we've described without losing your root.

You then proceeded to repeat back what I suggested.

Are you on the same page now?

If so, maybe we'll start to go into when and how we set up the different kinds of front kick. Or you can just lecture us some more.

[WingChunTao]

Hail, Hail Threadjackers prevail! :D Peace

[Mr Punch]

Hail, Hail Threadjackers prevail! :D PeaceWhat the hell are you talking about? I was directly answering your post, and you were talking ****. Oh well, seems like you're still talking ****... and I ain't playing anymore.

[Airdrawndagger]

WingChunTao:

It seems like you are to preocupied with how the kick looks like as apose to what actually works and when to use different kicks.

There are many different ways to do a front kick as many has already stated. It just depends on "why" you are kicking in the first place as Ultimatewingchun has described.

Having been a kicker for many years I can tell you that both ways work. You just have to understand your own motivation behind the kick. Are you kicking to gain ground and step inside the kicking range for a counter, or are you trying kick a lower extrimity? Are you blocking a kick (bong jerk) and countering with a front/side kick? Are you trying to blast your kick into the mid section? Are you trapping with your hands and kicking at the same time?

What I have found to be of paramount importance with kicking (and striking for that matter) using WC is measuring and using your distance from the target. WC is a close range system so it is very easy to get to close as to not be able to kick properly.
Also, thrusting your hips forward and or rolling your hips forward is a standard for wing chun when kicking or striking and should be practiced often. When I do a front kick with out using my hips there isnt a proper transfer of energy from the target to the floor and I do share the same experience as Matt and Anerlich described because the energy goes from the target through your leg and out through your hips which is why you are knocked back alot of the time. When you do a snap kick the energy goes from the front of your foot-to the target-and back out of your foot so the chances of you being knocked back are less. In order to maximze the amount of force delivered while staying grounded the WSL method is a great way to accomplish this.

[WingChunTao]

I am wrong. Your way is the only way, superior way. The rest of the Wing Chun world can't match up to your witts or your Internet Warrior status. THE END.

[Phil Redmond]

I am wrong. Your way is the only way, superior way. The rest of the Wing Chun world can't match up to your witts or your Internet Warrior status. THE END.
I teach in Warren and in Ferndale. You are welcome to visit me and I can show you what Andrew is talking about. Plus I still want to discuss Guitar lessons with you. ;) The class schedule and times are at this link. http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/contact.asp I have a class in Ferndale on Thrusday nights. It just hasn't been posted on the site yet.
PR

[Liddel]

I agree with Ultimatewingchun's answer
" I find .......... that raising the foot first and letting the knee rise incidentally is the FASTEST way to success..."
This works best for "ME", ( just in case someone wants to argue )
I have sparring partners that train with police and army using CQB methods and they also rely on NOT Co-king the leg but bringing the foot in a straight line to the target.
To me this also is backed up by my VT theory that a straight line to the target is the most effective, Co-king though useful waists time and can telegraph ones action.

[Mr Punch]

Liddel, do you not have tan/bong gerk?

[martyg]

Sinking Chum or rooting (like a tree):


I think part of the problem getting your point across is the vocabulary and the way you're using it. I understand the idea of body connection you're trying to get across (in actuality though, if you're in contact the idea is more similar to taiji's peng with the opponent providing the energy for you to connect and sink while using the same path to send back.)

At a distance, this does not occur until the point of contact of your kick as well. Prematurely sinking will break the bridge on contact and cause an attempt at distributing your Yi in two different directions. What you're describing can be better termed as simply relaxing the alignment during the motion, without a major direction of Yi.



Chum is sinking energy (gravity) pulling or pushing into the ground. When using Chum, say in a front kick, the support leg is bent, the back is straight, and the weight of the body sinks into the ground without compromising or losing the YGKYM structure.


Chum (like most of the energies) is more of an expression of ging via directing your Yi in to your opponent than it is something you do to your self. Again, what you're describing more is "relaxation" of the support let and lower body to allow natural alignment. Rather than an active "sinking".


This keeps the force (energy) down toward the ground, not riding high or floating.


Actually, what it does is allow a natural alignment for you to then align/combine with your opponent's body (creating one unit) at the point of impact and allow your yi to manifest itself. Saying it keeps "energy" down to the ground can lead to confustion. It basicly keeps your "engine" intact and allows you to properly join and use the now linked connection (bridge). Same process with anything really, weather it's kicking, punching, touching, etc....


Chen style Tai Chi is a good example (different style, same concept) : Many of the poses are very low or sunken to the ground.


Well.....that's more of a byproduct of the process than actually physically driving down and sinking. Relaxation causes sinking, but the ideas of spiraling in the body play an even larger part in that.


This low sinking energy is what chum is all about.
Another example is YGKYM its self. Try standing in YGKYM and bend your knees. Now sink even further, then further etc... Do this without losing structure and relax.


Sinking doesn't really help if everything in between is dead (unused). You just have a lower dead body.


Reasearch and experiment for yoursleves with chum. It's a theory and a concept when just talking about it, but when put it into use it is praxis (theory into practice).


Again, to me I wouldn't call that chum. If my opponent's body winds up breaking and sunken as a result of my motion and intent, then that's an expression of chum energy.

Thanks for the topic, it's been interesting.

[WingChunTao]

Thanks Martyg. I like the way you think and express your ideas. That's the kind of feedback I am looking for. Peace

[Mr Punch]

It appears my last response to this was deleted by the mods.

Well, let's try measuring the response a little more this time...
That's the kind of feedback I am looking for. Peace
If that was the response you were looking for why were your posts talking purely about the physical mechanics of throwing a kick without mentioning chum until four posts in? Were you 'testing' us?

I candidly suggest next time, if you want to talk about chum, you ask a question about it.