Nanyang vs Yik Kam's Cho family wing chun

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I recently saw some footage of Y. Wu performing Nanyang wing chun. The forms looked more like a softer version of Yong chun white crane than it does to yip man w.c. But they did seem to have some reconizable movements of the slt,ck, and biu jee, and they were separated into siu nim tao, chum kiu, and biu jee because he paused after each one instead of doing it as one long form.

Does nayang wing chun have the same material in their three forms as the Cho family wing chun's siu lin tao, just separated in three sections?

[Hendrik]

Hi,

Does nayang wing chun have the same material in their three forms as the Cho family wing chun's siu lin tao, just separated in three sections?


Different stuffs.


if one use my 3 level model to analyse some of today's Cho family WCK. it doesnt goes more then 1st level model and it got stuck there.


See, the first level is the so called Shape, molecular atomic level. In this level it deal with Shapes, different moves, different applications, theories.......etc.

So, in these level it is great to know all of it. But there is a problem. the problem is this level is not close to reality. It is very man made. say the WCK's triangle or the heaven human earth or some kind of structure where the body has to stand in this way or that way. Those are great model or shape or idea, but is it reality? No, different people look at the same shape will have different ideas and think about different things. this is a static level stuffs. it is not that usefull in the real life when one encounter a pro. where the pro play in a dynamic level instead of tryig to force others to play in a set up or a shape one prefer. This also get into problem when two different people trying to force others to play in one's game. the one who has more physically power and know more move will win. provided both has equal training / experience in thier art.

So, the shape the tien yan dei stuck there not clearly define until one get another level down.

The second level which I called the action reaction force/momentum level. In this level, we deal with force, or if I might borrow the term from WXZ of Yee Chuan, the 6 directional force vectors equilibrium, In Yik Kam Kuen Kuit it was called " let it be nature" Yat yan Chee Yin. This is about action and reaction force dynamic equilibrium. There is beyond shape in this level but a well handle flex flow of momentum/force. The root is virture root, not the type that one has to root into the ground when the opponent push in....etc. In this level, one also needs to have one's body train until it is capable to be real flexible.

The 3rd level which is purely AWARENESS. since the dynamic equilibrium of the 2nd level is by default, then the 3rd level only deal with the natural flow. how will things flow with nature without thinking or speculation or trying to force others playing one's game. A Chaos is a natural set game, . if one capable of AWARE.





IE, look at fujian white crane, look at TaiJi, Look at Xing Yee, Look at Yee Chuan... one can see the 3 levels.

Say the TaiJi has its Peng Jing or the Hun Yuan Jing cultivation. The Yee Chuan has its 6 directional force vector cultivation. The Xing Yee has its San Tie Sheh... those all address the 2nd and 3rd level issues. look at the fujian white crane's san chin.....

all things build up into a holistic piece, a type of nature similar to some is cloud, some is rain, some is snow, some is fire. and they are nature. this is very different then man made robot.

I also disagree with some time people saying this weapon that weapon is the MOther. well, that is a upside down. Weapon is just an extention or booster. if one doesnt have the 3 level then one doesnt have it. that simple. It has nothing to do with the weapon or dummy set. does one has a consistance teaching of which penetrate the 3 levels and at the end or final state of the training, one transform into a snow, an ice, a fire, a wind... without has to reason? if not then that art is just a speculation. it will not go too far.


In addition, at Bruce Lee's time, since martial art is not popular, if some one knows about some of the first level shape, trick, structure stuffs. then one is the master . IMHHO, in 1800, that doesnt call kungfu at all. It is beginer stuffs.

Whatever I post above can be my crazy ideas or can be a catalist to transcent Yik Kam's WCK from here on. Shao Lin the term doesnt tell about the technology. shao lin has to have the 3 level or equivalent of technology or model. So, the 3rd level of Shao Lin technology is called Bu Dong Xing or the Immobile heart. The mind seal of Buddha the True Such -ness. or the Great Awareness. So, what I am saying is the 3 level model is a fact.

for Shao Lin, the first level will attain the shape, the second level wil attain the Kung or power be it Kang or Rou where the YiJIngJing play the core key, the third level will be the Immobile heart. Then one become a wind called shao lin.


finally, if none of the so called mother, oldest, original WCK...etc has these type of technology. and thus, it cant be the mother.

So, how about Yik Kam's WCK? the first level is the SLT and various application sets... the second level is the nature flow action-reaction force .. the third level is the AWARE
Then one turn into a flex flow of water called Wing Chun. and without the 2nd level there is no way one can do Keng geng consistantly because one doesnt have a full control of the nature of the force.



My view for those who is learning and carry on the Yik Kam based art of the present and future.

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks for the info Hendrik,
What do you mean by the term "the 6 directional force vectors equilibrium" so that I can understand what the heck you are talking about.
Are you refering to the "flow" or lok hop (six harmony) ankles, knees, waist, shoulders, elbows, and wrists, and shouldn't it be 8 directional force vectors equilibrium in a sphere around your body to create a protective shield.

What are the major differences as well as similarities between Nanyang wing chun and Yik Kam wing chun?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the info Hendrik,
What do you mean by the term "the 6 directional force vectors equilibrium" so that I can understand what the heck you are talking about.
Are you refering to the "flow" or lok hop (six harmony) ankles, knees, waist, shoulders, elbows, and wrists, and shouldn't it be 8 directional force vectors equilibrium in a sphere around your body to create a protective shield.

What are the major differences as well as similarities between Nanyang wing chun and Yik Kam wing chun?



how many times and how many ways you want an answer answered? hahaha


Let it be.


When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
And in my hour of darkness
She is standing right in front of me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the broken hearted people
Living in the world agree,
There will be an answer, let it be.
For though they may be parted there is
Still a chance that they will see
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

And when the night is cloudy,
There is still a light that shines on me,
Shine on until tomorrow, let it be.
I wake up to the sound of music
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
There will be an answer, let it be.
Let it be, let it be, let it be, yeah let it be.
Whisper words of wisdom, let it be.

[kung fu fighter]

Once would be great! ha ha ha

[KPM]

Once would be great! ha ha ha

Well said!! :)

Keith

[Airdrawndagger]

Hendrik, It is apparent that you are very knowledgeable about MA but because of the language barrier it is sometimes hard to understand your meanings. Could you please answer these questions so I can FULLY understand your meanings? Thanks.


"the 6 directional force vectors equilibrium, In Yik Kam Kuen Kuit it was called " let it be nature" Yat yan Chee Yin. This is about action and reaction force dynamic equilibrium."

Could you better explain what this means ? Identify what makes up the 6 directional force vectors or maybe ref. a book or source I can view.

"IMHHO, in 1800, that doesnt call kungfu at all. It is beginer stuffs."

Are you saying that in the year 1800, kung fu was at the 1st level and so was at the beginner level?

What does "Keng geng" mean?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, It is apparent that you are very knowledgeable about MA but because of the language barrier it is sometimes hard to understand your meanings. Could you please answer these questions so I can FULLY understand your meanings? Thanks.


"the 6 directional force vectors equilibrium, In Yik Kam Kuen Kuit it was called " let it be nature" Yat yan Chee Yin. This is about action and reaction force dynamic equilibrium."

Could you better explain what this means ? Identify what makes up the 6 directional force vectors or maybe ref. a book or source I can view.

"IMHHO, in 1800, that doesnt call kungfu at all. It is beginer stuffs."

Are you saying that in the year 1800, kung fu was at the 1st level and so was at the beginner level?

What does "Keng geng" mean?




Using this forum's search engine under zero inch punch, 6 force vector, hendrik.....

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
This is what I found on this forum search engine.

Snake body = 6 directional force vector components awareness dynamic equilibrium resultant mechanics.

[Hendrik]

Snake body = 6 directional force vector components awareness dynamic equilibrium resultant mechanics.

which is basically the coordination of all six joints to produce power. In my w.c. linage this is known as "lok hop" or six harmony.

Alot of times different wing chun linages uses different terminology for the same things which can be confusing, this is just one example of that.



What I post is not the same with what you think. Anywhere i mentioned about joins? so be real carefull when you read.

[kj]

Hi,
This is what I found on this forum search engine.

Snake body = 6 directional force vector components awareness dynamic equilibrium resultant mechanics.

which is basically the coordination of all six joints to produce power. In my w.c. linage this is known as "lok hop" or six harmony.

FWLIW, I have not seen Hendrik use the description you provided of lok hop, six harmony, or six joints power.

What I have seen him describe is awareness and utilization of component force vectors in all directions, i.e., forward/backward, right/left, up/down. Conceptually quite simple and pretty "common sense" stuff; in application quite profound. I believe it is actually the heart of the matter. It's nothing that requires exceptional knowledge of history, culture, special jargon, lost texts, or mysticism. Hendrik himself has used a lot of creativity and gone to great lengths to describe this many times, and in a variety of non-traditional ways. Many will remember Van Helsing and pillow hugging. :D

I wouldn't say that what you wrote and what Hendrik said are wholly unrelated. However, they are not the same thing. What you wrote as compared to what Hendrik said can also lead further inquiry in different directions, IMO.


Alot of times different wing chun linages uses different terminology for the same things which can be confusing, this is just one example of that.

Sometimes. Other times, they may use the same term and mean different things. Yet other times they are simply talking about different things altogether.

Clarity in communications and meaning is difficult at best through a medium such as this. In virtually all realms (not just internet forums), the listener's interpretations are more heavily influenced by his/her own patterns of thinking and world view than by the writer. That explains why, to some, "Huckleberry Finn" is a reflection of southern heritage and culture in days gone by, to some an allusion to h0m0sexuality [what an odd prefix to filter ...], to others a racist work worthy of banning or burning, and to yet others a bittersweet commentary on human nature.

To be a truly good listener is almost always challenging, in any context. It requires active effort in trying to understand what another person is trying to say. There is a huge difference between hearing (or seeing), as compared to active and open listening. When we already have in mind what we want to hear, fail to set aside our preconceived notions on the topic at hand or our judgements about the person presenting, presuppose the answer to a question, insist on constraints or a preferred response, we have constructed our own barriers to real listening and understanding. This is an area requiring constant effort and vigilance, and something we can all improve in.

Just some random thoughts.

Regards,
- kj

[kung fu fighter]

Thanks Kathy Jo,
I don't understand how something so simple can be explained with such complicated wording. Every wing chun linage uses this concept known as fao/chum, tun/tao using angles of left and right angles.

Sometimes different wing chun linages uses different terminology for the same things which can be confusing, this is just one example of that.

Hendrik
What is the Stick eight point chain continous bridge concept. Is this the same concept as in the fujian white crane system?

[marcus_pasram]

Hi KJ,

Thats so good, I will have to quote you :D

/Marcus

<snip>
Clarity in communications and meaning is difficult at best through a medium such as this. In virtually all realms (not just internet forums), the listener's interpretations are more heavily influenced by his/her own patterns of thinking and world view than by the writer. That explains why, to some, "Huckleberry Finn" is a reflection of southern heritage and culture in days gone by, to some an allusion to h0m0sexuality [what an odd prefix to filter ...], to others a racist work worthy of banning or burning, and to yet others a bittersweet commentary on human nature.

To be a truly good listener is almost always challenging, in any context. It requires active effort in trying to understand what another person is trying to say. There is a huge difference between hearing (or seeing), as compared to active and open listening. When we already have in mind what we want to hear, fail to set aside our preconceived notions on the topic at hand or our judgements about the person presenting, presuppose the answer to a question, insist on constraints or a preferred response, we have constructed our own barriers to real listening and understanding. This is an area requiring constant effort and vigilance, and something we can all improve in.

Just some random thoughts.

Regards,
- kj

[Hendrik]

Thanks Kathy Jo,
I don't understand how something so simple can be explained with such complicated wording. Every wing chun linage uses this concept known as fao/chum, tun/tao using angles of left and right angles.

Sometimes different wing chun linages uses different terminology for the same things which can be confusing, this is just one example of that.

Hendrik
What is the Stick eight point chain continous bridge concept. Is this the same concept as in the fujian white crane system?

KJ

Thanks for your help. You are correct.

Kungfu figther,
until you learn how to stop jumped gun and making equivalent you are just romancing your own thoughts without awareness on what is what. if you dont know how to clean your minds cup before you drink my tea. you will always only taste whatever left over in your cup.
so what is the point of asking but not listerning. study but not learning. waste of time isnt it. until you know how to empty your mind cup. that is the most important thing you need to learn instead of collecting terms and keep romance your thought.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,
what other sifus are in north america that teaches Yik Kam w.c. linage and in what cities are they located in.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
what other sifus are in north america that teaches Yik Kam w.c. linage and in what cities are they located in.


I have no idea. Sorry.