Wing chun concepts and southern shaolin

[kung fu fighter]

Hi ,
My belief is that all of the southern shaolin arts have the same theories and principles. If you have the complete art any style is good weather it's hung gar, southern mantis or wing chun. The technique each style uses might be slightly different, but the concept being used to make the techniques work should be the same in all the southern shaolin arts. I found a website of a southern shaolin style called Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai (Tiger crane Soft Hard Buddhist Kung fu). This styles was created by combining Ng Mui's unique white crane boxing with Chi Shim's tiger style, it seem to be a syster style to wing chun and therefore share many common principles/concepts with mainland china wing chun such as Cho Family w.c. and Gulao w.c.

Read the theory& design page and let us discuss what our different understanding of it is, I believe that it contains alot of the i-ching and 5 element understanding of the wing chun system or any of the southern shaolin arts for that matter.

www.fuhok.org/fuhok/page5.html

Kung Fu Fighter

[anerlich]

My belief is that all of the southern shaolin arts have the same theories and principles.

You'd have to stretch it pretty far to include styles like Choy Li fut and WC under the same brolly.

the i-ching and 5 element understanding of the wing chun system

Is a figment of some people's overactive imaginations.

[Edmund]

The technique each style uses might be slightly different, but the concept being used to make the techniques work should be the same in all the southern shaolin arts.


Well that kinda depends on what "the concept" is exactly.
A lot of arts will have similar concepts since we're all human and fighting has some universal principles. I don't see why the i-ching and the 5-elements is a common concept in all southern shaolin arts. You're going to need to explain your reasoning a bit more.



Read the theory& design page and share what your understanding of it is, I believe that it contains alot of the i-ching and 5 element understanding of the wing chun system or any of the southern shaolin arts for that matter.

www.fuhok.org/fuhok/page5.html



Read the page and I'm not seeing that much similarity with WC principles. A lot of the writing was more mystical than practical. What WC principle is related to the i-ching? The way they explained it did not appear particularly useful.

It states:
Obviously within the three major levels are three minor levels also. In martial literature the three levels are often referred to as the root, branch and stem. All of the levels of the Pa Kua pattern give the Fu Hok practitioner a tremendous number of possibilities when responding to an incoming attack.

Frankly it sounds super-complicated.

THEN you have that wierd diagram with 3 circles and lines all over. I couldn't make head or tail out of it.

[Liddel]

I've seen and heard it all before.
To me the difference of 10 degrees between a flat/horizontal Bong Sao and a Bong Sao thats sliding down (elbow higher than the wrist)
is a punch in the face....
Same with Tan Sao without the turning body.....
They look similar to an observer but one works for you and the other works against you as a VT man.
So similar ? Fine...so what..its not the same and thats all the diffence IMO.
But then again i personally think the I-chihg has no bearing on VT directly unless you see it yourself, so i may be bias on this subject.
Food For thought.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
You'd have to stretch it pretty far to include styles like Choy Li fut and WC under the same brolly.

Is a figment of some people's overactive imaginations.

Choy lay fut and wing chun share more in common than you might think. The problem is that some people don't have the complete understanding of their wing chun and are making assumptions based on their limited knoledge.
Some examples of this are the baat qwa footwork, centerline theory etc..

Edmund mentioned "Well that kinda depends on what "the concept" is exactly.
A lot of arts will have similar concepts since we're all human and fighting has some universal principles. I don't see why the i-ching and the 5-elements is a common concept in all southern shaolin arts. You're going to need to explain your reasoning a bit more."

Mainland systems of hung gar, wing chun, and white crane etc. all have the 8 trigrams and five element theory, but this infomation for whatever reason is missing in their Hong Kong versions, especially in regards to footwork, probably because of the limited space to practice in. Do some research into the mainland systems.

[anerlich]

Choy lay fut and wing chun share more in common than you might think. The problem is that some people don't have the complete understanding of their wing chun and are making assumptions based on their limited knoledge.

How so? My first instructor studied both extensively. He believes differently. He taught me more than enough to see the differences.

The "problem" as you describe it, appears to be one that you are afflicted with. Especially as regards CLF.

Do some research into the mainland systems.

I've done more than you, I think.

[WingChunTao]

Many of the Southern styles do share similar moves, concepts and theories. They share common histories that started around the same time, ex.. Chi Sim is linked to Wing Chun, the Opera Boats and Hung Ga. He is also linked to the 5 famous major family systems of Southern China (Hung, Lao, Choy, Lee and Mok). Many are linked to the secret societies that evolved after the Qing take over of the Ming dynasty. If these Histories are right then there is more here than meets the eye. There is a deeper connection that may not always be visible on the surface

[anerlich]

There is a deeper connection that may not always be visible on the surface

Forgive me for not taking this statement at face value. What is the connection? Details? And why is it always so hard to see?

Because it isn't there, maybe?

Many are linked to the secret societies that evolved after the Qing take over of the Ming dynasty.

Oh yeah, I'm sure CLF and WC shared HEAPS of info. The mainstream proponents of the styles have basically have been enemies for a long time. Even in 1985 one of my sihings made the mistake of wearing a WC T shirt to an acupuncturist aligned with a CLF school and was alomst run out of the establishment.

[reneritchie]

It would be very interesting if the term 'Southern Shaolin' was much like the term 'Southern Mantis' -- something used by the Hakka people who fled Fujian with their Fujian-based arts, and went through the Guangdong/Guangxi migration route.

There are some interesting similarities between the stories of 'Southern Shaolin' and the history of the Hakka, and some very interesting similarities between the arts that claim 'Southern Shaolin' connections and also Hakka connections...

(AFWIW - Don't mistake 5 element theory, 8 trigrams, etc. for martial linkages--it's part of the overall culture itself used by almost everything in China.)

[canglong]

It would be very interesting if the term 'Southern Shaolin' was much like the term 'Southern Mantis' -- something used by the Hakka people who fled Fujian with their Fujian-based arts, and went through the Guangdong/Guangxi migration route.
Some of the facts are even more interesting such as certain terms unique to and derived from Buddhism and Southern Shaolin being inherent in many southern sytems. Tien Yan Dei term, concept and wisdom are present in both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi, the term, concept and wisdom of Saam Mo Kiu is unquely buddhist and southern shaolin in origin as are the phrases and concepts behind sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn and ngh douh luk mun fa kihn kwan.

[Edmund]

Mainland systems of hung gar, wing chun, and white crane etc. all have the 8 trigrams and five element theory, but this infomation for whatever reason is missing in their Hong Kong versions, especially in regards to footwork, probably because of the limited space to practice in. Do some research into the mainland systems.

I've learnt two mainland systems actually. Yuen Kay San and Pan Nam.
They don't seem to have much related to 8 trigrams and 5 element theories that I'm aware of. Which mainland system/s have you studied? And why do you consider their theories as more valid than other WC styles?

I'm not seeing an explanation of the theories from you that relates to WC concepts yet. I also know a bit of Hung gar. Maybe you can explain how the I Ching is a concept there. You are currently even less informative than that link was.

Just stating that it's there isn't really demonstrating much reasoning.
Especially when I know a couple of mainland systems that don't use these theories much.

[kj]

(AFWIW - Don't mistake 5 element theory, 8 trigrams, etc. for martial linkages--it's part of the overall culture itself used by almost everything in China.)

I believe you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

Regards,
- kj

[Hendrik]

Some of the facts are even more interesting such as certain terms unique to and derived from Buddhism and Southern Shaolin being inherent in many southern sytems. Tien Yan Dei term, concept and wisdom are present in both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi, the term, concept and wisdom of Saam Mo Kiu is unquely buddhist and southern shaolin in origin as are the phrases and concepts behind sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn and ngh douh luk mun fa kihn kwan.

The following is my view as a Buddhist and a WCner. I would like to respect whoever create the term since it is very creative. However, i would like also to point out that we need to get the Buddhism or Daoism or Chinese Folk believe stuffs straight. Otherwise, a, we can get stuck and not be able to go further in our study. b, the next generation or scholar will think WCners are not clear for what there are doing.



1, Tien Yan Dei term is a Chinese Cultural term which were used everywhere.

2, Saam Mo Kiu obviously has its right itself and respected, however this is not a known term existed in any known core Buddhist writting. Until any one can find that term in Buddhist writting of the past, (certainly, one needs to view this term with respect for whoever invented this term. it is still some creative work which can be appreciate. ) However, there is no based found which Buddhism support this term.

3, sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn or three points, a single line, stable the Spirit . doesnt fit into buddhist origin .


The reason:

A, Buddhist dont talk about stable Spirit or Shen or Shan in cantonese. Chan, Zen buddhism go straight to the AWARENESS. As Shan or Shen or Spirit is level lower/narrower then AWARENESS.

B, AWARENESS do not need to use points or Lines to stable it becuase AWARENESS is beyond Points/Lines and even thought or Niem or Yee.

Just drop the yee and Niem and AWARENESS always ist there. One doesnt go out to develop something or get to somewhere. AWARENESS is always there. or in a narrower analogus sense, one doesnt go out to live in NOW. drop all the thoughts, speculation, intention...... NOw is always here.

So, whoever create this saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn doesnt know Buddhism in depth. Doesnt Know Chan. because s/he simply doesnt understand Buddhism.

Saying that, this person might be good in martial art, some Daoist school stuffs. that might be possible. However, This term doesnt fit into Buddhism. That is for sure and very certain.


Lets look at the Diamond sutra which is the sutra of Chan.


http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/bud-canon/diamond_sutra.html#div-7

10. Arousing the pure aspiration without abiding

[Chinese Source Text]

佛吿須菩提、於意云何。如來昔在然燈
佛所、於法有所得不。世尊、如來在然燈
佛所、於法實無所得。須菩提、於意云何。菩
薩莊嚴佛土不。不也世尊。何以故。莊嚴佛
土者則非莊嚴、是名莊嚴。是故須菩提、諸
菩薩摩訶薩應如是生淸淨心。不應住色
生心。不應住聲香味觸法生心。應無所
住而生其心。

The Buddha said to Subhūti, "What do you think? When the tathāgata studied under Dīpaṃkara Buddha, did he gain any attainment in the dharma?"

"World Honored One, when the Tathāgata studied under Dīpaṃkara Buddha, there was, in reality, nothing that he attained in the dharma."

"Subhūti, what do you think? Does the Buddha create sublime Buddha-lands?"

"No, he does not, World Honored One. And why not? Sublime Buddha-lands are not sublime. Therefore they care called sublime."

"And so, Subhūti, the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas should give rise to the pure aspiration in this way: they should not give rise to the aspiration while abiding in form. They should not give rise to the aspiration while abiding in sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts. They should give rise to the aspiration while not abiding in anything."



NO ABIDING IN FORM...Concepts ect is the core key. Points, line, Shan all are form. Zen abiding to none of them is the teaching of the buddha. asking one to abiding on points, lines, gates to stable/settle something or transform something is about abiding or dwell in a certain states. and states are impermenent. one cannnot step on the same water flow twice. one cannot life the same time twice. Thus, it cannot be Chan. chan dont abiding. chan dont dwell in abiding in sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts.



In addition,

An analogy, abiding in points and line and form are great in an Atomic molecu structure static level, but it is inadequate in the Sub Atomic level or even in the Wave model level. One needs a wave level model to understand what happen deeper then the sub atomic level.

If those tri-angle, structure shape... etc are a molecular atomic level, then the 6 directional force vectors is equivelent to the sub-atomic level since the model deal with how the eloctrons/ protons and how it spin. and Awareness is the wave level because it deal with NO Abinding. ONly at the No Abinding level one can implement the flex flow similar to water.

In the sub-atomic level one will know how to fajing. if one using the molecular shape level trying to understand or predict the fajing or keng geng which is beyond static shape. that cannot be done properly because one needs another level deep down to understand and be able to handle the details.


Thus, 3 level of depth might be needed to have a holistic view to start a kung fu training. Thus, WCK needs all 3 level of models or its equivalent tool to communicate what is within the art.



Thus, from the stanza, we can see that the creator of the stanza is at the molecular atomic level which s/he is using the points and lines trying to settle the deeper level subject which it is not likely can be done. IE: using molecular atomic understanding trying to manuval something in the sub-atomic level without an understanding in electrons spin...etc Not to mention the Wave model level.


So, with this type of analisys how far the stanza can lead one can be predicted. the boundary condition of the stanza is known. this stanza is a great tools for the molecular atomic level. but doesnt do a good job or very usefull in the sub atomic level or another level down which is the level of Wave or Awareness. Shen or Shan or spirit doesnt reach that deep into the Awareness level.


5, ngh douh luk mun fa kihn kwan is even further confirm the Non Buddhist Core.
of The previous statement.



I sincerely hope we can look at the merit of the person who trying to fit the 3 points, the lines, the door... into a stanzas so people can remember the important points while practicing martial arts eventhought it has to has more depth in oder to link to Buddhism or advance martial art.

I sincerely hope this post is not taken as an attack but a close look at what is what. For everythings has two sides. Looking at it as it is is about AWARENESS but taking anyone of the side as the TRUTH is abiding in Form. IMHHHHHHO


peace
and have a nice day.

[Hendrik]

Hi ,
My belief is that all of the southern shaolin arts have the same theories and principles. .......I found a website of a southern shaolin style called Fu Hok Yao Gong Fut Pai (Tiger crane Soft Hard Buddhist Kung fu). This styles was created by combining Ng Mui's unique white crane boxing with Chi Shim's tiger style, it seem to be a syster style to wing chun and therefore share many common principles/concepts with mainland china wing chun such as Cho Family w.c. and Gulao w.c.



Kung Fu Fighter



You are certainly a creative person. I might do the same as you if I am in your position.


As for Cho family wc principle/concepts, my recomendation is make sure you know them before making comments and started to believe something.

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
3, sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn or three points, a single line, stable the Spirit . doesnt fit into buddhist origin . The center line or one line is the dan tien for wing chun and buddhist. Wing Chun has long been regarded as a method to enhance the mind body and spirit.

[canglong]

originally posted by rene ritchie
(AFWIW - Don't mistake 5 element theory, 8 trigrams, etc. for martial linkages--it's part of the overall culture itself used by almost everything in China.) Clarify does this mean it's in everything so naturally its a part of Wing Chun or does this mean it's in everything except Wing Chun.

[mantis108]

I don't mean to interupt the discussion nor rock the boat. Traditional Kung Fu regardless of styles IMHO is without a doubt mystic discipline. It is not that different from Yoga of the Hindu tradition. Both have union of the mind-body continuum with the space-time continuum as the under lying lesson. The difference is that Yoga is coming from a Vedic perspective; while Kung Fu often takes up I Ching perspective. It is of note that I Ching is also about unification just like modern scientists who are working on the string theory trying to tie (pun intended) all things together. Chinese mystics (ie Sun Lutang) have long been the poineers of that idea. The models that they came up with are all collected under the I Ching study. In I Ching, there is a "Holy Trinity" as well. No, it is not Heaven, Earth, and Human although that's common knowledge to most. The core (trinity) is Mathematics (Shu), Principles (Li), and Phenomena (Xiang). That's the inner knowledge which is applied to all things including pugilism. This makes pugilism not just a casual and careless plight but premeditated and profound enterprise. The most important of all is that the mathematics properties will matches the principles as well as the phenomena under the scrutiny of I Ching. There is such a thing as anatomy (shu/mathematics) which is applied to pugilism (li/principles) and then to physical conflict (xiang/phenomena) from I Ching prespective. Personally, I would not discount so readily thousands of years (at least 5,000) of inner knowledge that makes the Chinese one of the most successful races or nations ever lived on the face of earth.

Having said all that, modern Wushu as it is conceived by PRC does not satisfy the Holy trinity of I Ching and will fall into pieces when scrutinized. So no wonder its stylists including Jet Li would slight the term Kung Fu. Ignorance is bliss for Wushu players and so be it.

Mantis108

PS Kung Fu as a term IMHO can be fully supported by the I Ching text authoured by Confucius two thousand some years ago.

[Hendrik]

The center line or one line is the dan tien for wing chun and buddhist. Wing Chun has long been regarded as a method to enhance the mind body and spirit.


Buddhism doesnt talk about Dan tien. Chan talks about not abinding. Non Dwelling. Non Line, Non point, Non structure.

Wing Chun has long been regarded as a method to enhance the mind body and spirit is a not good enough to link it to Buddhism. Buddhism doesnt talk about spirit but AWARENESS. or atleast in china shen or spirit cannot be the core of buddism.

and
Regareded as a method has to present the technology to explain HOw to do it.

There are at least 3 levels of technology there needs to be address. Making some Chinese Stanzas up are respectable for the creativity however as soon as it doesnt address the technology of the 3 levels or more then it doesnt mean much at all. but hollow. There is where the every body's intepretation deal comes in, there is also where the everyone's his-stories come in. Similar to the blind men who is trying to describe an elephant.

a true description of an art or a claim must have in details the big and details of the technology for what ever levels it consist. Otherwise it is a wishfull thinking.

similar to a doctor taking care of a patient, s/he must has a clear perscription up to the level the doctor capable of. and not leave intepretation for the patients.


be it in engineering to healing to martial art,,, it is a causal system world and one needs to be very clear on what is going on.

This is what I see WC as a general needs to be carefully addressing in the coming future. The name of the lineage, the name of the founder of the lineage, the name of the sifu cannot replace a well address technological details.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik, could you email me when you have a chance? Thanks!

[canglong]

In I Ching, there is a "Holy Trinity" as well. No, it is not Heaven, Earth, and Human although that's common knowledge to most. The core (trinity) is Mathematics (Shu), Principles (Li), and Phenomena (Xiang). That's the inner knowledge which is applied to all things including pugilism. This makes pugilism not just a casual and careless plight but premeditated and profound enterprise. Mantis108,
Excellent point, to the hobbyist these treasures are hard to find let alone comprehend which makes attaining knowledge along with skill the reward that it is.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Hendrik,
You are certainly a creative person. I might do the same as you if I am in your position.


As for Cho family wc principle/concepts, my recomendation is make sure you know them before making comments and started to believe something.

I recall you saying that "Since red boat times,
In Yik Kam and Cho family lineage, there is a drill Chi Lin Wan bat dim kiu or Stick eight point chain continous bridge. There also a drill called Chong kiu sau or strengthening kiu sau continous drill.

What's the concepts behind the the drill called Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge.

Is it not based on the bagua sum (eight trigrams center)?


Hi Mantis108,

Excellent Post! "It is of note that I Ching is also about unification just like modern scientists who are working on the string theory trying to tie (pun intended) all things together. Chinese mystics (ie Sun Lutang) have long been the poineers of that idea. The models that they came up with are all collected under the I Ching study. In I Ching, there is a "Holy Trinity" as well. No, it is not Heaven, Earth, and Human although that's common knowledge to most. The core (trinity) is Mathematics (Shu), Principles (Li), and Phenomena (Xiang). That's the inner knowledge which is applied to all things including pugilism. This makes pugilism not just a casual and careless plight but premeditated and profound enterprise. The most important of all is that the mathematics properties will matches the principles as well as the phenomena under the scrutiny of I Ching. There is such a thing as anatomy (shu/mathematics) which is applied to pugilism (li/principles) and then to physical conflict (xiang/phenomena) from I Ching prespective. Personally, I would not discount so readily thousands of years (at least 5,000) of inner knowledge that makes the Chinese one of the most successful races or nations ever lived on the face of earth."

My thoughts exactly!

The martial arts masters of the past were scientist as well as philosphers. They would have received university level education at shaolin or wu dong temple such as mathematics, philosophy, religion and meta-physics. Which besides martial arts practice would probably be one of the main reasons why they would have wanted to go there in the first place since most peasant chinese didn't know how to read or write.

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik,


I recall you saying that "Since red boat times,
In Yik Kam and Cho family lineage, there is a drill Chi Lin Wan bat dim kiu or Stick eight point chain continous bridge. There also a drill called Chong kiu sau or strengthening kiu sau continous drill.

What's the concepts behind the the drill called Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge.

Is it not based on the bagua sum (eight trigrams center)?


.


Are you asking a question or are you making a statment?


If you are making a statement I hope you know what you are talking about.

if you are asking a question.

Do you AWARE of that using RED to ask question is not a polite thing to do?


You certainly are an interesting person.

[Firehawk4]

Why dont you tell us about the Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge ? Instead of hereing about the Emie twelve Zhuang thing that you talk about all the time lets here you talk more about the basics of your Cho Ga Wing Chun Art .

[canglong]

originally posted by hendrik
There are at least 3 levels of technology there needs to be address. Saam Mo kiu addresses all 3 levels of which you speak, noticably when asking most buddhist about the term SMK they are always more concerened with the meaning behind the term as opposed to the actual term. Hendrik you seem to have a knack for dwelling on the surface of things in your arguments against things but always request people look deeply into matters that you are a proponent of. Once again the list of questions for you to answer is piling up. Enjoy your vacation :D

[anerlich]

There is such a thing as anatomy (shu/mathematics) which is applied to pugilism (li/principles) and then to physical conflict (xiang/phenomena) from I Ching prespective.

How do you make the link between maths and anatomy? Is this human physiognomy and measurement, or something else?

Personally, I would not discount so readily thousands of years (at least 5,000) of inner knowledge that makes the Chinese one of the most successful races or nations ever lived on the face of earth.

I'm not discounting anything readily. If the links were so manifest in Wing Chun specifically, then where is the literature about it other than the wistful musings on this forum? Why are all these links only apparent after deep study in Wing Chun, whereas they are right there in your face in styles like Xingyi and BaGua? Or are they only there because you wish really hard?

As for success, I guess it all depends on your definition. The Chinese got colonised or overrun by various other nationalities and badly stomped on by the Japanese on a number of occasions. I agree they are in ascendancy at the moment, but IMO that has precious little to do with 5000 year old philosophy. More an astute and ruthless economic rationalism. Before that, we had the Communist era where much of the old teachings were actively discouraged. Suggesting that any anicient wisdom has much to do with their current position in the world arguably ignores modern history.

to the hobbyist these treasures are hard to find let alone comprehend

If I meet a hobbyist I'll be sure to tell them of that.

What's the concepts behind the the drill called Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge.

I admire your tenacity, but I feel your quest for a straight answer is doomed...

[Hendrik]

Why dont you tell us about the Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge ?


Instead of hereing about the Emie twelve Zhuang thing that you talk about all the time

lets here you talk more about the basics of your Cho Ga Wing Chun Art .




Good Question.

To understand the basic of Cho family Wing Chun,
Until one understood and mold in one's mind that Emei twelve Zhuang is one of the mother of all Cho Family Wing Chun. it needs to be understood as the first priority. other stuffs comes later.

since I talk all time about Emei twelve Zhuang, but you still miss spell Emei. Hahahaha.

[Hendrik]

1, Saam Mo kiu addresses all 3 levels of which you speak,


2, noticably when asking most buddhist about the term SMK they are always more concerened with the meaning behind the term as opposed to the actual term.



3, Hendrik you seem to have a knack for dwelling on the surface of things in your arguments against things but always request people look deeply into matters that you are a proponent of.


4, Once again the list of questions for you to answer is piling up. Enjoy your vacation :D




1, Saam Mo Kiu, What is a Saam Mo Kiu? How is it link with the Buddhist teaching? How is it link to the Buddhist sutras? How is it link to the Buddhist practice ? Who invent this term? and When?

Until these are address very clearly, there is nothing much can be talked about but take it with respect as someone's speculation.

As for the 3 levels, it will be great to address the equavelent from the Saam Mo Kiu view point so that we all can have a close look at it.


2, What is a Most Buddhist please define them. Meaning is important so does where the term is from. if the Meaning is proper accord to the teaching but the term is invented that is ok. if the meaning is not proper accord to the teaching and the term is invented to look alike that is not ok. If the meaning is totally off and invent the term which is totally off. that too is not ok.

it is a matter of studying and being clear of something, instead of being blurr.



3, I wont comment on your opnion.

4, There are questions I answer before people ask. There are question I asked. There are question I will not answer even continous ask. That is me. and similar to any normal human being's action.


peace

[canglong]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Read the theory& design page and let us discuss what our different understanding of it is, I believe that it contains alot of the i-ching and 5 element understanding of the wing chun system or any of the southern shaolin arts for that matter. Originally posted by mantis108
That's the inner knowledge which is applied to all things including pugilism.Anerlich,
This is what was said earlier, why do you use the words "Wing Chun specifically".

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Hendrik,
I wrote the question with red in order to draw your attention to it not to be inpolite. No disrespected intended

What's the concepts behind the the drill called Chi Lin Wan Dim kiu or eight point chain continous bridge.

Is it not based on the bagua sum (eight trigrams center)?

[canglong]

Saying that, this person might be good in martial art, some Daoist school stuffs. that might be possible. However, This term doesnt fit into Buddhism. That is for sure and very certain.
Lets look at the Diamond sutra which is the sutra of Chan.
Hendrik,
No surprise you miss the point of the thread which is titled Wing chun concepts and southern shaolin your misguiding misleading views of buddhism with out wing chun, buddhism without southern shaolin and buddhism alone is your own preconceived misconception and has nothing to do with this thread or what was written in accordance with the theme of this thread. You only want to talk about Buddhism in your limited and narrow minded way. It is beyond you to think that Southern Shaolin has a place in Chinese history, it is beyond you to think that certain terms were derived from and are unique to Southern Shaolin and it is beyond to accept that so many southern martial arts actually bear witness to several terms that have arisen from or are associated with Southern Shaolin's work with Ming Military Officers and Soldiers and the many people seeking refuge in and around the temple working together. Southern Shaolin has incorporated and been the genesis for several things including but not limited to Chan, Philosophy, Religion, Martial Arts & History seperating these things as you so often do to cloud the issue is a waste of time on a thread entitled wing chun concepts and southern shaolin.

You want to remove and or seperate the wing chun or southern shaolin kung fu from the discussion you might want to start your own thread on Buddhism reporting your "one side" of the story. This discussion is about how wing chun and southern shaolin come together believe it or not like it or not.

[mantis108]

How do you make the link between maths and anatomy? Is this human physiognomy and measurement, or something else?

Great question. First and foremost, IMHO we have to bear in mind that Chinese worldview is largely represented by the I Ching worldview. This is to say that it is holistic and organic in nature. There is no such a thing as the "immovable mover" (ie God) churning the wheels (ecologies) but that the wheels move more or less in a random manner automatically sometimes in harmony with each or sometimes against each other. This is also the concept of no mind. This is important because anatomy of human body as concept would be somewhat of a misnomer because life isn't "created" with a purpose rather it is an extension of existance which is the main tenet of I Ching. The mind and the body are both ecologies that are closely and literally related to each other. In other words, I Ching does not deal with the beginning ( the why) of life or how it comes to be. It is rather an OBSERVATION of phenomena with respect of space-time.

When describing the human anatomy, the Chinese mystics would say that the abdomen is the Wuji. Note that abdomen region here includes the chest cavity as well. The naval is the Taiji (connection point of prenatal and postnatal life). From there we have the Liangyi/yinyang (2 kidneys), Si Xiang (4 limbs eyes, ears, arms, and legs), Bagua and so on so forth. It's of note that I Ching uses binary system math for an obvious reason. We can easily find this information from Sun Lutang's book which is publicly available and we don't need to regard this as secret knowledge whatsoever. We can also see that further down the road, we can come to meridians and arcupuncture points and such things. As far as the body is concern, TCMA in essence is not independent of TCM, which employs the I Ching as well. So pugilism is the art of expressing the human body or rather the human body expressed in combative form is not a bogus statement from that perspective. ;)

I'm not discounting anything readily. If the links were so manifest in Wing Chun specifically, then where is the literature about it other than the wistful musings on this forum? Why are all these links only apparent after deep study in Wing Chun, whereas they are right there in your face in styles like Xingyi and BaGua? Or are they only there because you wish really hard?

Believe it or not I must say that I am a fan of your posts which I often follow and enjoy. I can understand your "frustrations" when it comes to TCMA's mindset. But give it time, my friend, it will open up. Now, I am pretty sure that Yip Man has manuscripts of this area of knowledge. However, I don't want to speculate the reason why this is not widely spread with the popularity of Yip Man Wing Chun which in mind is a relative style to Yong Chun. This doesn't take away anything from Yip Man Wing Chun other than recognizing the uniqueness of it IMHO. In a sense, Yip Man Wing Chun is the private expression of his understanding of Kung Fu from a "Yong Chun" pugilistic tradition. He was entitled to teach it the way he saw fit. That again is my opinion.

As for success, I guess it all depends on your definition. The Chinese got colonised or overrun by various other nationalities and badly stomped on by the Japanese on a number of occasions. I agree they are in ascendancy at the moment, but IMO that has precious little to do with 5000 year old philosophy. More an astute and ruthless economic rationalism. Before that, we had the Communist era where much of the old teachings were actively discouraged. Suggesting that any anicient wisdom has much to do with their current position in the world arguably ignores modern history.

I hear you. Chinese is really not a race in particular. Arguably, it is mainly the Han tribe but it's actually more than the Han tribe. Some believe that Japanese, Korean, and even Vietnamese were ancient Chinese people's off springs. In the case of Korea and Vietnam, they were feudal states of China that eventually got independence. Anyway, Communism is most definitely a foreign idea that was brought back to China by the students (ie Deng Xiaoping) who when to foreign countries such as France. If not for the provity of the peasants, who were promised wealth, the idea will never fly with most Chinese. Ideology is just a front for power grab, deep down inside Chinese is Chinese and greed is greed. ;) That applies to the "Shaolin" phenomenon in CMA as well.

Mantis108

PS In case you are wondering, I am a Chinese guy from HK and now living in Canada. so...

[PaulH]

Mantis108,

I don't know about your position of the I ching view of the prime mover, but early Chinese culture is more often of the notion of the Sky God who rule the people's affairs. As to Vietnamese origin, some old and very ancient records say that they come from the offsprings of the Dragon! =)

___________________________________
Heaven
Heaven is a very early Chinese notion. According to Shang Chinese (c. 1700 to 1100 B.C.) ideas, Heaven was the dwelling place of God-on-High (Shang-di). Later, Heaven became an impartial governing principle, in scholarly philosophical theory anyway. Heaven was always a strictly hierarchical place, and its bureaucracy developed in pace with that of the earthly Chinese government. (Given that the Chinese government has been characterized by bureaucracy since its inception, it seems only natural that they should have ascribed the same characteristics to heaven and the underworld.)

According to Shang ideas, not all hun went to heaven - only those of the powerful were admitted (that is, those of earthly kings). The government of Heaven was responsible for overseeing human activities. There were (in its later development) four Departments: Fate, Longevity, Good Deeds, and Evil Deeds. Each Department kept detailed personal dossiers on all living people. If a person did enough good deeds, their dossier might be evaluated and transferred to the Department of Longevity (which might then grant them a longer life span). The records were updated on a daily basis and were subject to transfer from one Department to another. This record keeping was a major function of the celestial bureaucracy.

[anerlich]

Mantis108,

It is a pleasure, and all too rare, to hear someone expound in detail on these subjects from a basis of real knowledge.

Way too many wannabe scholars on here (with a few exceptions like Rene of course) - it's great to find someone who really understands what he is talking about.

I'm actually pumped to drag out the two translations of the Ching I have and try to read them again with fresh eyes.

Perhaps as alluded to elsewhere, Yip Man dropped these concepts from WC because he felt they impeded rather than helped progress, with regard to learning WC at least? That's a question, not a suggestion. There are fives and eights, and twos, in there, but that doesn't automatically mean they related back to elements, trigrams, duality, etc. Sometimes five is just five.

why do you use the words "Wing Chun specifically"

I was asking Mantis108 for clarification as to where the 5 element, 8 trigram, I Ching etc. links were in WC. The inference seems to be that they are hidden and only obtainable after long and detailed scholarship, which seems a ridiculous notion since in styles like Xingyi and BaGua they are about the first concepts the beginner is presented with. What is the point of concealing or obfuscating something so easily obtainable elsewhere?

Mantis actually wrote stuff which makes sense, as opposed to the normal lengthy but content-free waffling about such subjects made by other posters on this forum, and in a much publicised recent WC book.

Mantis seemed to understand the question.

[anerlich]

I gather Sun Lu-Tang wrote several books, on xingyi, bagua and taiji, and there may be more.

Were you referring to a specific book in your post? I gather I would have to buy the book(s) rather than find a free translation on the web.

Another question, perhaps slightly off topic but related to the maths/anatomy thing: does the Golden Ratio play a part in Chinese philosophy or art?

[Edmund]

Now, I am pretty sure that Yip Man has manuscripts of this area of knowledge. However, I don't want to speculate the reason why this is not widely spread with the popularity of Yip Man Wing Chun which in mind is a relative style to Yong Chun. This doesn't take away anything from Yip Man Wing Chun other than recognizing the uniqueness of it IMHO. In a sense, Yip Man Wing Chun is the private expression of his understanding of Kung Fu from a "Yong Chun" pugilistic tradition. He was entitled to teach it the way he saw fit. That again is my opinion.


Well that's some convoluted logic. You're speculating that he taught Wing Chun WITHOUT I Ching principles for "personal reasons". The assumption being that Wing Chun uses all these I Ching principles. You haven't got much basis for that assumption. Why don't all the other lineages use I Ching principles then?

Kungfu fighter is even asking Hendrick whether there's such principles in Cho WC. So he obviously hasn't established that there is yet!

Guys like Sun Lu Tang wouldn't know the difference between WC and a hole in the ground so their expertise in other TCMA doesn't really carry over.

[mantis108]

Hi PaulH,

Thanks for the input. That's very interesting. I will give you some thoughts that is rather off topic from the thread. I hope that others won't mind to indulge me on such interesting subject.

I think it is important to note that there are different developmental stages on the I Ching. At least 3 stages happened according to Confucius who really was more or less the complier of the collective work of the previous dynasties. There are also other schools such as the Daoists who had done extensive work with the I Ching. We can not account for exactly how many schools have worked on the I Ching due to the imperial China had a tendency of book burning. So versions might have been lost.

It is believe that such is the case with the Shang dynasty I Ching method which is called Gui Cang Yi (revert conceal Changes). Other than Shang people regarded the earth trigram as the primal trigram in it's method, we know very little about this method which is also seems to be their divination standard.

BTW, I am not an atheist but I am also no monotheist either. It is interesting that Chinese pantheon are made up of gods, immortals, sages/saints, and Buddhas. At least 3/4 of them are "promoted" from human kinds who work hard enough to achieve the high possible "reward".

Hi Anerlich,

Thank you for the kind words. I am sure the feeling is mutually shared. :) Su Lutang indeed had several book. Recently, they have been reprinted as one book. I think the Xingyi one was the only one translated into English. I am not sure about the rest. The most valuable is the one book after the 3 styles (I call it the 4th book) IMHO because it contains the insights of his various teachers. It is in this book that you will find most of the I Ching mystic views concerning Kung Fu. Having all his book in one volume does help a great deal in understand the egnima of Kung Fu in general. I definitely will encourage you to look into it.

The Greeks scholars were fascinated by geometry. This has something to do with their believe that God is the chief architect of the world IMHO. To understand and solve problems were to be close to the chief architect. In other words, it's an holy act to compute difficult mathematical problems. I don't believe the Golden Ratio (0.618...?) is used in any Chinese philosophy or art as far as I am aware. However, in the Luo Shu (the nine palace) matrix, the 3 base squares are numbered as 6, 1, and 8 resulting in 15 which is an important property in I Ching. It would seem that Chinese are more interested in the circle and square than the rectangle. The tools to draw these geometry shapes (ie the compass and the ruler) are regarded highly. There are acient drawings of the legendary emperor and creater of I Ching Fu Hsi and his companion Nuu Wo each holding the ruler and the compass. I think they are also accredited with teaching the people how to build houses and palaces.

Dear Edmund,

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was implying any slight to GM Yip Man's teaching and/or to the Yip Man Wing Chun community (quite a few of them are my good friends). I have great respects for Yip Man Wing Chun eventhough I am a Northern praying mantis stylist. Likewise, I have great respects for Su Lutang although I am not much of an "internal" stylist. I have no interest whatsoever in Kung Fu politic especially about styles. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and can make assumptions about me if you so choose. But I would advice looking into Sun's teaching before drawing conclusions. He was of fleshes and bones as human being like you and I. So he would know something and even have insights to that is dear to him as well as you and I - the function of the human body. Unless you are to convince everyone that human in the near future will have 3 heads, 6 arms, 4 legs and extra organs (or less organs for that matter) we will all have to device a new way of fighting, otherwise I would not think that mystical view as outlined in the I Ching is useless and would not apply to TCMA. But then congratulations if you have already found a way to punch someone without moving your body. Now that the I Ching would really not apply to you, my friend. One certainly don't need to be educated to fight and be good at it. But then what is the sense in not knowing the reason or the purpose to fight and how is that fighter different than an animal?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
No surprise you miss the point of the thread which is titled Wing chun concepts and southern shaolin your misguiding misleading views of buddhism with out wing chun, buddhism without southern shaolin and buddhism alone is your own preconceived misconception and has nothing to do with this thread or what was written in accordance with the theme of this thread. You only want to talk about Buddhism in your limited and narrow minded way. It is beyond you to think that Southern Shaolin has a place in Chinese history, it is beyond you to think that certain terms were derived from and are unique to Southern Shaolin and it is beyond to accept that so many southern martial arts actually bear witness to several terms that have arisen from or are associated with Southern Shaolin's work with Ming Military Officers and Soldiers and the many people seeking refuge in and around the temple working together. Southern Shaolin has incorporated and been the genesis for several things including but not limited to Chan, Philosophy, Religion, Martial Arts & History seperating these things as you so often do to cloud the issue is a waste of time on a thread entitled wing chun concepts and southern shaolin.

You want to remove and or seperate the wing chun or southern shaolin kung fu from the discussion you might want to start your own thread on Buddhism reporting your "one side" of the story. This discussion is about how wing chun and southern shaolin come together believe it or not like it or not.


Good reasoning.

You are certainly an interesting guy with an interesting logic. Some people has good interesting story line that make into the Star Wars movies. That is always great.


have a great night.

[Edmund]

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was implying any slight to GM Yip Man's teaching and/or to the Yip Man Wing Chun community (quite a few of them are my good friends). I have great respects for Yip Man Wing Chun eventhough I am a Northern praying mantis stylist. Likewise, I have great respects for Su Lutang although I am not much of an "internal" stylist. I have no interest whatsoever in Kung Fu politic especially about styles. You are certainly entitled to your opinions and can make assumptions about me if you so choose. But I would advice looking into Sun's teaching before drawing conclusions. He was of fleshes and bones as human being like you and I. So he would know something and even have insights to that is dear to him as well as you and I - the function of the human body. Unless you are to convince everyone that human in the near future will have 3 heads, 6 arms, 4 legs and extra organs (or less organs for that matter) we will all have to device a new way of fighting, otherwise I would not think that mystical view as outlined in the I Ching is useless and would not apply to TCMA. But then congratulations if you have already found a way to punch someone without moving your body. Now that the I Ching would really not apply to you, my friend. One certainly don't need to be educated to fight and be good at it. But then what is the sense in not knowing the reason or the purpose to fight and how is that fighter different than an animal?


That's not particularly relevant to the topic at hand.
You aren't establishing any use of the I Ching in WC concepts. Sun Lu Tang has not established a connection between I Ching and Wing Chun either.

As great as his expertise on the human body may be, it really has zero bearing on whether WC historically used the I Ching in it's theories.

You're the one drawing the conclusion that the I Ching is used by WC and you're basing this on no evidence so far.

[PaulH]

Mantis108,

The Chinese people as portrayed in many popular historical classic books as well as in real life are quite supertitious, so your view of an impersonal and noncausal I Ching cosmology sound rather strange to me! =)

That being said. I think the book in question is more or less an ancient book of wisdom on living. It deals mostly on how some changes can influence the possible outcome of an event in a significant way. The point of most contention seems to be on of just how much the changeology of the book permeated the thinking or philosophy of WC. Take your own pick, I say! Just make sure that it is worth dying for... whatever passion or road to fortune that you take will cost you a precious portion time of your life. So many live for worldly gains and meaningless things, and so few die well in the pursuit of their life dream.

[mantis108]

Hi Edmund,

That's not particularly relevant to the topic at hand.
You aren't establishing any use of the I Ching in WC concepts. Sun Lu Tang has not established a connection between I Ching and Wing Chun either.

Point taken and you are right that Sun Lu Tang himself had not explictly or directly established any connection between I Ching and Wing Chun. I have yet to establish that as well although I believe I have explained clearly there relationship between I Ching, human anatomy and pugilistic tradition. My point mainly is that TCMA regardless of style will stand up to the scrutiny of I Ching.

As great as his expertise on the human body may be, it really has zero bearing on whether WC historically used the I Ching in it's theories.

Can a link between be established historically? Personally, I believe a "theory" on the connection can be established but it is just that a theory until it is fully supported by all the missing links and evidences. IMHO Kung Fu is about evolution. Much of the systems and styles can be traced back to a few or God forbids even one prototypical pugilistic tradition. ;)

You're the one drawing the conclusion that the I Ching is used by WC and you're basing this on no evidence so far.

Perhaps, I am taking a big leap with my "theory" and therefore seemingly misleading others. For that I am sorry. But even the Darwin's theory of evolution can be challenged when missing links are presented although there are constant "discovery" of new evidence. So I would think that keeping an open mind is the key approach. Sometime we could be suprised by the 6 degrees of seperation (pun intended). To sum up my points, I would said that the forms in Yip Man Wing Chun provide crucial clues. It would be prudent IMHO to cross reference them with Yong Chun He Fa or White Crane as well as take a deeper look into I Ching. That's if traditional Kung Fu is what you would be after. If Kung Fu like modern Wushu is more or less a pass time for you, than really there is no need to spend time on being a Chinese boxing detective. ;)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Mantis108,

The Chinese people as portrayed in many popular historical classic books as well as in real life are quite supertitious, so your view of an impersonal and noncausal I Ching cosmology sound rather strange to me! =)

It's merely the other side of the coin, my friend. :)

That being said. I think the book in question is more or less an ancient book of wisdom on living. It deals mostly on how some changes can influence the possible outcome of an event in a significant way. The point of most contention seems to be on of just how much the changeology of the book permeated the thinking or philosophy of WC. Take your own pick, I say! Just make sure that it is worth dying for... whatever passion or road to fortune that you take will cost you a precious portion time of your life. So many live for worldly gains and meaningless things, and so few die well in the pursuit of their life dream.

I agreed. To each their own.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[PaulH]

mantis108,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do so love chisau furiously my attenas at whatever in front, left and right of me. Our exchange has been most friendly and chivarously!

Your Humble, Fearless and Jumpy Grasshopper, =)

[Jim Roselando]

Guys,


Sun Lu Tang's Xing I and Taiji book were both translated to English!

Both are excellent!


Regards,

[Liddel]

Some people here have mentioned references to "Traditional Kung Fu" with regards to thier ideas on VT and the I-ching.
Does the majority here contend that VT is a traditional Kung Fu ?
Because i myself class it as a 'modern Kung Fu' with respect to the majority of chinesse styles out there.

It may seem a trivial point but to me this has a logical impact on my view of the relationship between VT and the I-ching...being
any correlation/influence/connection is in 'the eye of the beholder'
What you see is just that...what 'you see' and purely coincedental, or if you look for the positive like me, you could call it a 'Benificial bi-product'.
Is it that important to the stucture of VT ?
Just My thought.

[anerlich]

The only non-self-referential definition on dictionary.com for "traditional" is:

pertaining to time-honored orthodox doctrines

I guess one big question here is how much time has to pass before "modern" turns into "traditional".

In some contexts, tradition can be extremely powerful, in others it can be weak and stagnant.

As to whether WC has a traditional base in the I Ching, any link appears to have been lost in history, or never existed in the first place. Lot of supposition and wishful thinking here, but no real evidence.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Mantis108,
What styles of chinese martial arts have you practiced. Is it Jook Lum Southern Mantis?

We seem to share the same view about Yip Man and kung fu in general. I was told that Yip ching (yip man's younger son) has volumes of his father notes, which I am sure must have his understanding of the I-ching.

Can you give me some insights as to how the I-Ching relates to the wing chun system. Especially in regards to the footwork, as well as the energies of the different hands and foot techniques.

and how does the 5 element fit into the picture?

Anything that you can share about the wing chun system would be great, bad or good.

thanks
kung fu fighter

[mantis108]

Hi Kung Fu Fighter and All,

My Kung Fu experience first started with Lung Ying and Bak Mei with the late Chow Fook. Believe it or not I was hoping to learn either Hung Gar or Wing Chun as a kid. But my mom found Sifu Chow Fook who was well known in where we used to live in HK. Little did I know that experience provided lots of benefit even until today. As a Northern Praying Mantis stylist under the late Chiu Chuk Kai (Tai Chi Praying Mantis) today, I am finding more and more clues about the evolution and interconnectedness of Kung Fu.

Perhaps the most bewilding thing to me is that there might just be a connection with styles such as Shandong Tanglang (Northern Mantis), Yong Chun He Fa (crane method prototypical white crane), and Dongjiang Longxing (southern dragon style). There are plenty of clues but I am not going to elaborate here.

Both Wing Chun and Lung Ying recognize Ng Mui nun as the major influence of the styles. Both Lung Ying and Wing Chun are close range oriented arts which has remarkably similar dynamics to Yong Chun Bai He (white crane from Fujian province), which was created by a lady named Fang Qiliang, who had ties to White Lotus cult. BTW, some in the White Crane community believe that Ng Mui would be a third or fourth generation practitioner of Bai He. Now the interesting thing is that White Lotus cult were known to be base on Buddhist, Daoist and fire worshipping ( A Pursian faith), and it has martial arts. At this juncture I believe, WLC might have trained its "troops" with Fanziquan or something similar to that; therefore, I believe that Fanziquan could be the prototypical pugilistic ancestor to many of the southern arts.

Let's look as some of the globle similarities in Fanziquan, Shandong Tanglang, Yong Chun Bai He, and Dongjian Longxing (Lung Ying).

All follows a formula of 4 attacks, 8 methods, and 12 forms (24 for some white crane).

All has San Shi or loose hands although the number varies (8 - 24 at the minimum). These are foundation building moves that are also simple and direct techniques for fighting.

All has long forms or pattern as a mean to build not only fighting techniques but also to condition the mind-body continuum.

All has both special external (physical) and internal (mystic) exercises know as Gong.

BTW, White Crane influenced Okinawan Goju Ryu has the exact same structure and even same exercises.

Some local similarities are Center line theory (Zi Wu Xian), Triangle stance, 5 elements hands, preparation moves, etc...

Now, does Yip Man Wing Chun have these? I would say most if not all are presented but then I can only appreciate it from an outsider point of view. Of course, it is upto those who are in the style to ponder on the matter.

I don't want to point out the obvious but is there a line of Wing Chun that don't teach the Zi Wu Xian (centerline) that is most definitely a part of I Ching? Zi, the hour of midnight and the north point position is also the center of the lower region of the body represent either by the kidneys or the Dan Tien. Please don't tell me that Dan Tien is an alien concept to Wing Chun. Wu is the high noon and south point position repesented by the heart or the head. When the north south point is connected you have the centerline of the body. It is perfectly okay to just call it centerline but right there and then we have lost a lot of important info about the puglistic anatomy as perceived by past masters. Zi Wu Xian represents axial alignment that is even crucial to Hinduism mysticism. The Hindu story, Churning of the milk ocean at the beginning of time, which was also IMHO the inspiration of Buddha's Diamond sutra, pretains to axial alignment which is crucial meditation concept to most eastern mystic disciplines. So it is obvious that establishing the centerline or axial alignment is primal in any traditional Kung Fu because this is the beginnging of any kind of Gong/Kung. That's the real Gong/Kung in Gong Fu/Kung fu IMHO. Yes, forms are a moving meditation tool.

I guess the best way to over power someone these days is to buy a gun. Now that is really the best and the easiest way and need not to be trivial at all. We can all forget about Kung Fu in that case. Anyone can fight and be good at fighting without learning Kung Fu. Just take a look at NHB and UFC events, I don't want to face any of those guys personally. Why spent hours upon hours of sweat and blood to educate yourself in TCMA? In the long run, fighting is not the answer to everything. Education, martial education, on the other hand is the real answer. Of course Wing Chun, and traditional Kung Fu for that matter, can be like them as a passtime without a soul. But then I for one would not want to just stand by and see such treasure become just trash.

Many looked at I Ching as superstitious especially when it comes to divination. But think of it this way - what is the difference between space expedition and fighting? Nothing really. Why? Because it's all based on a prediction of an outcome. It is a calculated risk taken with "educated" guess, which divination (big word but merely a spin on prediction) is also based upon that in advicing people to sieze or not to sieze the oppotunity.

Just some thoughts that I would like to share.

Warm regards

Mantis108