Cheung style

[bonetone]

I'm not hoping to offend or start a poitical debate with this thread, to let everyone know.

How much outside influence do you think W. Cheung had in his current system?
Was he influenced by JKd at all? Muay Thai? The TWC entry technique is quite like Muay THai fighters do for entry. The roundhouse kick seen in many systems is usually seen in just TWC and not othe wing chun. Is Twc grappling and anti-grappling influenced by jujuitsu? How about traditional okinawan karate, anyone see any similarities? Where did he learn his weapon defense and chin na? Is cross armed chi sao, eight count rolling and some of the other chi sao variations a staple of other Wing Chun systems? Cheung's Wing chun is like no other system in Hong Kong or the Mainland. Are his principles from self-experience or from secret teachings of Ip man? In a letter to Buce Lee he wrote something about an abrstract combat formula he was working on, he explained this as putting the principles he learned from Ip man into an organized system. Is this what became TWC? Any thoughts about this touchy subject?

[Ultimatewingchun]

This thread certainly does seem to be an attempt at trolling - once I said what I said on a different thread about William Cheung teaching a grappling type move.

I hasten to remind people that this type of thread emerges quite frequently...sometimes as a direct attack on TWC as a system....sometimes as a direct attack on William Cheung...sometimes as an indirect attack on TWC and William Cheung by going after Phil Redmond...or perhaps myself....or maybe somebody else associated with TWC and William Cheung (the latest person to fall into that category was the two sicko threads about Sonny Whitmore).

And I have come to view these kinds of threads as left-handed COMPLIMENTS, in fact. ;)

Since it's jealousy that motivates them about 99% of the time.

BUT GIVEN THE ONE IN A HUNDRED CHANCE THAT THIS THREAD IS ON THE LEVEL...

there are a number of factors to take into account about TWC & William Cheung. For starters, try these:

1- The man had extensive fighting experience in his day - which almost always means that REAL LIFE takes over and top shelf martial artists like William Cheung, Bruce Lee, Mas Oyama, Helio Gracie, Martin "Farmer" Burns (catch wrestling), to name but a few...these people always seem to recognize (and adopt) good technique, strategy, and fighting principles whenever and wherever they see it.

2- TWC does look very much like another wing chun system (HFY)...and also has some similarities with Weng Chun in terms of footwork and facing.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I also remember reading "In a letter to Buce Lee he wrote something about an abrstract combat formula he was working on, he explained this as putting the principles he learned from Ip man into an organized system."

I know for a fact that alot of Yip Man direct students speak highly of him as fighter when he was young and still training at yip man's school, but they have a difference of opinion as to what he is currently doing as TWC.

What exactly did he learned from Yip Man and what did he incorporated based on his fighting experiences especially the footwork? Can you give specific examples of techniques, concepts, and principles?

pm me if you like!

KFF

[sihing]

Hi,
I also remember reading "In a letter to Buce Lee he wrote something about an abrstract combat formula he was working on, he explained this as putting the principles he learned from Ip man into an organized system."

I know for a fact that alot of Yip Man direct students speak highly of him as fighter when he was young and still training at yip man's school, but they have a difference of opinion as to what he is currently doing as TWC.

What exactly did he learned from Yip Man and what did he incorporated based on his fighting experiences especially the footwork? Can you give specific examples of techniques, concepts, and principles?

pm me if you like!

KFF

Firstly, William Cheung is a very highly skilled Martial artist and Instructor. People always talked about his fights in Hong Kong when he was a teenager but from what I understand he was fighting lots in Australia when he left Hong Kong throughout the 60' & 70's when he was an adult. He is also a business man and although he claims to have gotten back to enjoying the art again, he did spend many years making it a business.

I will say for him that he has stuck to his story. Since day one he has claimed to have learned everything from Yip Man himself. But from what I now understand of the Chinese culture, this is the way of things, so only Cheung knows what really happened. I am sure though that he has added his own flavor to his TWC, and in the early 80's he showed his peers what he learned. Because he did this is a very unflattering way (typical c0cy Dragon), they (his seniors) basically disowned William Cheung and his way of doing things(TWC), so to take their word for it is taking a very biased opinion if you ask me. It's clear that TWC is much different from the mainstream WC from Yip Man out there today. IMO some of the modern WC from the lineages that stem from Yip Man's senior students may for all we know have borrowed from the exposure Cheung has given to TWC since the mid 70's and more publicly since the early 80's through the MA media.

James

[Flash]

I do not believe it makes much difference whether Cheungs system is watered down or not, change must take place in order to keep up with todays modern fighter. Ip Man never would have hid the roundhouse kick from all his students this is William Cheungs idea and not a bad one he himself knew that what he had been taught was not enough stemming from his own fighting experience. Atleast he had the balls to improve on the system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Can't honestly say that I know with certainty that William Cheung DEFINITELY learned the roundhouse kick from Yip Man - though the kick has been part of TWC since day one.

Recall that Mas Oyama had a similar revelation about the low rear roundhouse kick to the back of the thigh after he sent a team of fighters to Thailand to accept a challenge that the Thai's had made against Kyokushinkai Karate back in the day.

It's an excellent fighting technique...and any experienced and high quality martial artist should see the value in using it.

[hunt1]

Wing Chun forms express concepts not a hard and fast do this this way only and no other. In Wing Chun every step is a kick and every kick is a step. The roundhouse kick was and is a part of wing chun. It even shows up clearly in a form. Many things in Wing Chun forms hide in plain sight this is one of them.
Yip Man may not of hidden things from students but he didnt go out of his way to show them.

[azwingchun]

Nicely put! I agree 100%. I explain those things that don't just jump out at you as those hidden Easter eggs you hunted so hard for as a kid........just when you thought you found them all, the next day you find another. Many times the dog finds a few a couple of days later. I know, kinda a weird analogy, but explains it well in my opinion. LOL!!!!!! ;)

Many people take what their teachers give them and believe anything else is just made up. I believe the human factor allows for teachers to teach based on human experiences and perception (especially in a principle based arts) and some times the stuff that hides in plain site (as you put it) isn't seen, or allowed to be seen by the student. And in many cases if the student does found something other than what was shown, their teacher may tell them that it wrong. ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Hunt1,
You mentioned "In Wing Chun every step is a kick and every kick is a step. The roundhouse kick was and is a part of wing chun. It even shows up clearly in a form.

Can you tell me where in which one of the forms.

I completely agree with you, and I see the roundhouse kick as a hidden kick done in the gok ma stepping (angle stance). But this doesn't necessarily mean this is where william cheung got it from. I know that one of his top student by the name of Rick Spain was a high level kyokushin fighter, a style that's famous for strong roundhouse kicks. He won the kung fu elimination tornament in Hong Kong, and I understand that he is currently incorporating brazillian jujitsu into his TWC system.
Alot of things are common in all martial arts. For example you could incorporated moves from bagua or xing-i into wing chun and later realize that it was already in the wing chun system and probably done more efficiently if you had deeper understanding into the system. One example of this was when I was younger in the system and wanted to incorporated bagua zhang stepping with wing chun because I felt wing chun' footwork was too linear, until I later realized that wing chun had bagua stepping already, but I was unaware of it because it was only taught to the 6 foshan students by Yip Man.

I am all for improving the system with modern understanding and exposure to different styles such as NHB, but we must consider what was left behind as a complete system. I think that alot of Yip Man's students that didn't complete their training are reinventing the wheel like Bruce Lee Did, but are ashame to admit it to their students. Another factor to consider is that in my opinion I don't think yip man taught everything he knew to his students in Hong kong because he didn't trust many of them. I have heared this from many of his direct students in private. Alot of them tried to put the puzzle together based on what they heared he said without the complete understanding or the connective pieces, and what was passed down was a fragmented incomplete puzzle as a complete system with many holes.

thanks
Kung fu fighter

[anerlich]

Rick Spain was a high level kyokushin fighter

No he wasn't. He did a couple years of Kyokushin before he began WC, but he was only a kid then. He has had extensive pro and amateur kickboxing experience, but I think most of this occurred before or around the same time as Kyokushin really started on the Ring Karate format.

Is Twc grappling and anti-grappling influenced by jujuitsu?

No.

How about traditional okinawan karate, anyone see any similarities?

No.

William Cheung does occasionally teach a nice simple little nunchaku form he supposedly learned from an Okinawan Master.