quick question

[Koryu]

Hi all, I am new to this forum as well as to wing chun. I have studied (and still do study a Japanese art) and I came across wing chun. Well the other day I visited a school and I was overly impressed with the skill of the instructor as well as the students. The instructor was skilled, courteous, and full of knowledge- all of which are sometimes difficult to find these days. But as I watched a segment of the training they were in a stance that had the knees and toes bent inward. I was wondering why this type of postion is used. Any help shedding some light would be appreciated.

[anerlich]

You'll no doubt get much more long winded and mystical answers, the upshot is that it is meant to develop leg strength and postural and structural attributes necessitated by this art. Some say it also offers a measure of groin protection.

How well it actually achieves those aims is another question. Then again, many styles have practices that modern sports medicine and coaching would throw away. If it works for you is the important thing.

Not all styles of Wing chun point the toes in. Mine has the feet parallel in that stance.

Other styles (e.g. Sanchin kata from Japanese systems, and many other TCMA's) also adopt a toes in stance at various times, though most WC practitioners will say that only they do it "properly", even though many of them do it differently from each other.

[Finny]

Hi Koryu ('old school' - nice name mate :D which ryu have you studied?)

Regarding the 'knees and toes bent inwards' stance (Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma) - Where I train, this stance is used primarily as a training base, that is, we use it as a stable platform to do two-person drills from, and also obviously it features predominantly in the first form, Siu Lim Tao. It serves to impart proper structural alignment and body principles.

We would never fight in this stance, it is used to build principles upon which other, more fighting oriented, stances are used. For example, the 'side on' version of this stance can look remarkably similar to Xingyi's San Ti.

Sorry I can't be of more help - just wanted to chime in and enquire about your koryu studies :). I'm sure the board will address your question more completely and accurately than I have.

Best,

Brendan

EDIT: Ok, in the interests of providing you with a more articulate answer, I've dug out my copy of 'Complete Wing Chun' - In the Yip Man section, YJKYM...

"also known as the 'inward rotation abduction stance,' trains stability, force redirection and projection, and is the basic stance and structure of the system. Structure refers to the positioning and form of the body, stance, waist, and hands in order to connect the body and maximise power to the limbs. In Yip Man Wing Chun, the waist and pelvis push forward upon recieving pressure. If the waist and pelvis are not pushed forward, the upper torso will collapse when pressure is recieved, thereby breaking the structure. Weight is distributed evenly between both legs and the buttocks are ahead of the rear heel."

Whew. (awesome book BTW Rene, if you're out there.)

[Koryu]

Thanks for the responses. I thought that the stance was basic and not actually a "fighting stance", but I just wanted to be sure.

The name Koryu actually for me translates to Little Dragon 小 龍. I actually have not trained in too many arts, I have been studying Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu though for a while. Once again thanks

[Nick Forrer]

I wrote this a while ago:

The Ving Tsun stance.

When assuming/opening up the stance the following guidelines should be observed- The Feet should be slightly more than shoulder width apart, the knees should be bent but not past the toes, the feet should be inverted toward one another at 45, the pelvis should be pushed up and out. This creates a triangular structure which is both stable (because the weight is evenly distributed) and mobile (because it allows its user to move with equal ease in any direction). Although the stance is not a combat stance per se- All other stances in wing chun are derived from this basic stance. It thus acts as a kind of template or blue print.

The stance also teaches correct posture-head up, back straight, shoulders square, shoulders level all of which ensure that whenever you move have control of your own COG i.e. your balance is not compromised. In Wing chun we don’t duck or lean or reach or dodge (like boxing say) as this puts you in a vulnerable position- that is to say, you may avoid your opponents first attack using this kind of action but you wont be able to recover in time to avoid his second attack should he decide to follow up.
In addition when combined with the hand shapes the stance enables you to neutralise your opponents forward pressure by channelling it into the ground via the correct alignment of the six points: wrist, elbow, shoulder, hip, knee and foot. A big part of this is having the pelvis pushed forward. Many practitoners fail to maintain this when they turn or move thus 'collapsing' the stance.
Of course once the force reaches a certain critical point you dont just stand there - you will either want to turn the stance (diverting the force) or move the stance (slipping the force).

Finally the stance introduces us to the strategy of ‘facing’ i.e. staying square on to your opponent. This is important because WC is about, in the main (although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Further by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack, making it easier to cover and defend.

[Wingman]

...Although the stance is not a combat stance per se- All other stances in wing chun are derived from this basic stance. It thus acts as a kind of template or blue print.

....Finally the stance introduces us to the strategy of ‘facing’ i.e. staying square on to your opponent. This is important because WC is about, in the main (although there are of course exceptions) fighting from this kind of position. This allows for the use of both hands equally- for simultaneous attack and defence- since both hands are an equal distance from the target. Further by occupying the centre and covering your gates you are 'mapping' the space in front of you and thus predetermining your opponents possibilities of attack, making it easier to cover and defend.

If the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma has all the advantages of fighting square with your opponent (as stated in your last paragraph); why is it not a combat stance? Wouldn't you want to use both your hands equally during combat?