Close Encounters

[Xiao3 Meng4]

So, I had my first encounter with a grappler today. It was a friendly afternoon session, with both of us sharing some tips. Here's what I learned from the exchange:

-Wing Chun training can keep the fight standing. Chi Sao helps a lot.
-Throwing a grappler is a dumb idea. It's like feeding them.
-Fists Protect against wrist locks.

Does anyone else have experiences and lessons to share regarding grapplers?

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
I trained with some of the top Brazillian jujitsu players in canada, some of which won UFC titles. I trained just enough to understand the invironment. One of the things that I learned from the ground invironment was how to stay relax, another was how to create space to escape from pins and submissions using my wing chun skills.

Grappling share alot in common with wing chun, especially how to flow and counter from move to another.

I honestly believe if your wing chun timing is good it's almost impossible for a grappler to get a hold of you, muchless take you down. And if a grappler can't get a hold of you it doesn't matter how good his grappling abilities are, even if he is an oylmpic level gold medalist.

On your feet you have to use angles to shut him down, making it uncomfortable for him to want to come in, like the second Chuck Liddel/Randy coutor fight where Chuck used angles to control the fight. I have been teaching this for years, and someone finally proved this in a world championship UFC match. Rushing in right away with chain punches can also catch him by supprise, but chanches are this is what he is waiting for to catch your momentum comming in straight with a double leg takedown .

Wing chun theory says that we should be able to use our skills developed from the system and adapt to the opponent in the moment instinctively. You should train to use angles regardless if the opponent is striking or grappling because on the street you will not have the privillige or time to predict if he is grappling or striking, both happens in a blur. You should train to cover every possible scenerio instinctively using superior positioning, not judging a head of time what you think is going to happen.

Regards
Kung Fu Fighter

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Hi,
One of the things that I learned from the ground invironment was how to stay relax, another was how to create space to escape from pins and submissions using my wing chun skills.


I too found that the creation of space was necessary. When I could create space for myself while taking space from him, so much the better. Doing this on the ground was a new experience, though. I've become acquainted with the cradle (both sides, thankfully) :)


On your feet you have to use angles to shut him down, making it uncomfortable for him to want to come in.


I found this to be particularly true. By crowding his structure and timing with trapping and positioning, I was able to fend off the takedown attempts quite easily and still manage an offensive. Heavy Hands and inch punching worked well, although He managed to take me down with him every time I threw him. I have to work on maintaining the initiative throughout the throw and beyond.

[Firehawk4]

Can you tell us about your Yueng Fook Red Boat Wing Chun does it have forms what are the names of the forms ? Can you tell us about Yueng Fooks Red Boat Wing Chun History ? What is Yung Chun Zirranman ? I have Yueng Fook on CD doing some of his Wing Chun and Southern Mantis .

[anerlich]

My Wc instructor won an international invitational kung fu championship in HK 1982, using Wing Chun. He had 37 pro kickboxing fights and over 100 amateur fights. He's done security work and had street encounters into the triple figures.

With that much validation for the efficacy of Wc behind him, he still thought it well worthwhile to get deeply immersed in BJJ, in which he holds a purple belt. Several of his students are blue belts including myself.

Learn to be a complete fighter. Don't try to make a screwdriver do the job of a hammer.

[cerebus]

Anerlich, who's your instructor? Are there any vid clips of his fights available? I'd love to see some clips if you are allowed to post them.

[anerlich]

I train with Rick Spain.

I don't think there's much easily accessible stuff of his fights (he retired in the early 1980's after an ankle injury in a car accident in which he was a passenger), and I doubt he'd be particularly keen on a retrospective for general release.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a ba$tard, I just don't have anything.

[sihing]

All techniques and concepts can be deemed effective from all the various Martial Arts out there today, and throughout history. The question is how easy is it to apply for the person that has to use it against a resisting opponent? Some require much more effort and time, while others don't. I believe WC is the most efficient in this manner of thinking. The movements and concepts are relatively easy to learn, although I will say that WC is very precise in the way it requires things to be done, but the beauty is even if you make a mistake it still works. Now with grapplers, the key is to not play their game. They grapple because they can't strike, so why fight them in their specialty. Now the debate has come about recently in MA circles, does one have to be a grappler to defeat a grappler or does one have to be aware of what they do to defeat a grappler. People like Rick Spain and Andrew Nerlich obviously believe to defeat them and be more "Complete (whatever that means)" one must learn their ways and add it to their WC repertoire. My Sifu has had many fights, one on one and multiple opponents, and finds no need to learn BJJ, GJJ or any other grappling art to defeat them, so who does one believe? You would have to meet each Instructor personally to know who to believe absolutely, but from my own investigations into the MA I believe you do not have to learn the grappling arts to defeat them, but rather you have to know their strategy, movements and concepts, and to also surprise them with your own attack to defeat them. Know one here on this forum can guarantee that I will not defeat an equally skilled grappler from whatever art, using just the WC I know and teach, visa versa for the grappler. It's all about what works (Effectiveness) and what is easiest to apply (Efficiency).
James

[Liddel]

Kung Fu Fighter states
"Grappling share alot in common with wing chun, especially how to flow and counter from move to another.
I honestly believe if your wing chun timing is good it's almost impossible for a grappler to get a hold of you, muchless take you down."

Im a firm believer in this statement, (except for the "almost impossible" part)

Ive always felt that the best thing i got from my VT training even if i lost all skill was a sence of timing...
this was proven to me after sparring with grapplers and all rounders alike.
My main Sparring partner trains in close protection work CQB,
straight foward aggressive, stand up or on the ground etc.
Alot of thier ideas and principles are very similar towards the economic and straight foward approach of VT.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I honestly believe if your wing chun timing is good it's almost impossible for a grappler to get a hold of you, much less take you down." (kung fu fighter)

*REALLY NOW!? :p My inclination, after reading some wishful thinking like this, would be to ask who it is that you've worked with from the grappling world, but then I noticed that you also said this:

"I trained with some of the top Brazillian jujitsu players in canada, some of which won UFC titles. I trained just enough to understand the invironment. One of the things that I learned from the ground invironment was how to stay relax, another was how to create space to escape from pins and submissions using my wing chun skills."

*AND WHO ARE these UFC title winners you've worked out with. Care to name some names? :confused:

[wing_nut]

Sihing-
"Now with grapplers, the key is to not play their game. They grapple because they can't strike, so why fight them in their specialty. Now the debate has come about recently in MA circles, does one have to be a grappler to defeat a grappler or does one have to be aware of what they do to defeat a grappler."




That is easier said than done. What if the grappler isn't going to play your game?
You have to look at both sides of the coin here. Also, why would you assume that the grappler can't strike? This is like you are thinking that there is no way a grappler could ever suprise and get the best of you. This assumption can get you into big trouble.
It is one thing to beat a grappler by not playing their game, (If you are still standing)
but, there are times when you won't have a choice.
Once you hit the ground, where do you run?
The day you spar with a good grappler, I'm sure you will gain much respect for them. Have you have played with a good grappler. Did your sifu's many encounters involve grapplers or willing sober participants? :D
However, I agree with you that knowing their strategy, movements and concepts is helpful to a point.
As long as you know these things based on experience rather than theory.

[anerlich]

They grapple because they can't strike,

Actually, both my Sifu and I are accomplished strikers. My Sifu proved it in the ring and the pavement arena. You might as well say about strikers, "They strike because they can't grapple". Both statements are gross overgeneralisations. Lots of people train both these days, and are competent at both.

IF I meet someone who's a better striker than me, I'm going to try and clinch, takedown, and finish on the ground. If I meet a better grappler, I'm going to try and KO him.

One who only strikes doesn't have option A.

My Sifu has had many fights, one on one and multiple opponents, and finds no need to learn BJJ, GJJ or any other grappling art to defeat them, so who does one believe?

Rick Spain and me, obviously. :p

[Ultimatewingchun]

"My Sifu has had many fights, one on one and multiple opponents, and finds no need to learn BJJ, GJJ or any other grappling art to defeat them, so who does one believe?


Rick Spain and me, obviously." :p


*UNDOUBTEDLY SO! :D

[sihing]

"I honestly believe if your wing chun timing is good it's almost impossible for a grappler to get a hold of you, much less take you down." (kung fu fighter)

*REALLY NOW!? :p My inclination, after reading some wishful thinking like this, would be to ask who it is that you've worked with from the grappling world, but then I noticed that you also said this:

"I trained with some of the top Brazillian jujitsu players in canada, some of which won UFC titles. I trained just enough to understand the invironment. One of the things that I learned from the ground invironment was how to stay relax, another was how to create space to escape from pins and submissions using my wing chun skills."

*AND WHO ARE these UFC title winners you've worked out with. Care to name some names? :confused:

I find it interesting when someone or some people come online and make statements like they have sparred with "Good Grapplers" and done quite well against them, and the people that believe in the absolute of having grappling in their arsenal start coming online asking who, what, when, where and why, like there is no way someone could just take a grappler out without studying their art, LOL.

James

[sihing]

Sihing-
"Now with grapplers, the key is to not play their game. They grapple because they can't strike, so why fight them in their specialty. Now the debate has come about recently in MA circles, does one have to be a grappler to defeat a grappler or does one have to be aware of what they do to defeat a grappler."




That is easier said than done. What if the grappler isn't going to play your game?
You have to look at both sides of the coin here. Also, why would you assume that the grappler can't strike? This is like you are thinking that there is no way a grappler could ever suprise and get the best of you. This assumption can get you into big trouble.
It is one thing to beat a grappler by not playing their game, (If you are still standing)
but, there are times when you won't have a choice.
Once you hit the ground, where do you run?
The day you spar with a good grappler, I'm sure you will gain much respect for them. Have you have played with a good grappler. Did your sifu's many encounters involve grapplers or willing sober participants? :D
However, I agree with you that knowing their strategy, movements and concepts is helpful to a point.
As long as you know these things based on experience rather than theory.

Of course it is easier said than done. That can be said about any fighter from any Martial Art that has high quality skills in their arts, not just grapplers with skills.

I think every good fighter will know it's not about playing their game or anything like that, because in the street (I'm not talking about competitions) there are no games, mostly offense. I do have a question though? Why is it when the thread is all about grappling and all the absolutes there, that no one asks this same question? I have just as much chance of success as the grappler does when it comes to not playing their game also. So if I do end up on the ground luckily I do have some tools, of course not as polished as the grapplers, but who's to say that I will end up on the defensive side on the ground? Maybe it will be the other way around and the grappler will be hit, or weakend by my attack or counter then taken down by myself and having to deal with strikes coming at him faster than he can think? Who knows, but the first key in combat is to never make assumptions, but to just let you tools work, free of any thought or consious force.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

There's a HUGE difference between coming online and saying you've done well against "good grapplers"...and UFC title winners!

"Good grappler" could mean virtually anything (like the guy down the street who wrestled amateur style in high school).

But "UFC title winner" is a whole different story.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Can you tell us about your Yueng Fook Red Boat Wing Chun does it have forms what are the names of the forms ? Can you tell us about Yueng Fooks Red Boat Wing Chun History ? What is Yung Chun Zirranman ?


The Red Boat Wing Chun that my instructor, Michael Smith, learned came from Yeung Fook. There were no forms. He learned the forms from David Harris, one of Yeung Fook's Students. I don't know where David Harris learned the forms, although there are three empty hand, one dummy, and two weapons forms, all named similar to the yip man forms (I don't have the characters.) The forms were considered to be more of an archive of the myths and archetypes of Wing Chun, though; when there was a partner available, training was always with them.

I know little about the history of this lineage. I heard that Yeung Fook was an opera performer until the 40s or 50s, and learned Wing Chun on the boat. I don't know if it was something that had stayed on the boats or something that had returned to the boat. Some people say it came from Gu Lao. While still an opera performer, he would make some side cash by setting up a ring and allowing people to challenge him for money, with a cash sum plus the pot going to the winner. He moved to Seattle after his stint in the opera. I've never met the man, though, so I couldn't tell you how much of this truly relates to him.

Yong Chun Zi Ran Men translates to "the Praising Spring Gateway to the Spontaneous Self." The connotation is that Wing Chun is a conceptual model, a gateway. Through it, we can learn to manifest our natural spontaneous actions of adaptive response in unison with effecient proprioception and as clear an understanding of the situation as possible.

Zi Ran Men is essentially a partner based training system with Daoist roots where different levels of initiative are viewed through the five element model. For instance, the first level of initiative is no initiative. In the five element model, it relates to fear and instinct. What do you do when you have no initiative? Do you react out of fear, or instinct? A fearful response to a lack of initiative can be simply giving up (like passing out at the sound of a loud noise) or over-reacting (like punching out grandma if she startles you). An instinctive response can be running from the situation if the need arises, or seeking to stop any further loss of initiative without an undue use of force. By addressing out fears surrounding a lack of initiative, we can better use our instincts.


Regarding Grapplers and their striking ability: One of the things I noticed on Saturday was his complete willingness to strike and kick (and kick some more) when not on the ground, but as soon as we got to the ground, he ignored that aspect completely, focusing instead on getting me to tap out. Once, I was able to get back up by forcing him to protect himself enough that he stopped thinking about holding me down. I don't think I would have been able to do much damage at the angle I was at, but it was the speed and intensity with which I aggressed that made him react. Had he recognized the situation more clearly, he might have simply yanked my ankle off. :D


Hey, what would you call the guard in Wing Chun? I think I'd call it Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma. ;)


CSP

[lawrenceofidaho]

I find it interesting when someone or some people come online and make statements like they have sparred with "Good Grapplers" and done quite well against them, and the people that believe in the absolute of having grappling in their arsenal start coming online asking who, what, when, where and why, like there is no way someone could just take a grappler out without studying their art, LOL. -James

James......... If some wrestler said; "I've never studied any striking arts, or ever trained against anyone who does, but just by using my wrestling techniques I was able to stand toe-to-toe with some high level wing chun guys from Master Lewadney's organization and do "quite well against them", -wouldn't you be all over them with the same set of questions?

Nothing wrong with full disclosure....... In fact, if someone knows you are going to ask them for specifics and go through the trouble of verifying the story, it tends to nip most exaggerations in the bud, (right?)

Keep em honest! :D

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

-Fists Protect against wrist locks.
Are you referring to standing wrist locks (common in aikido, classical jiu-jitsu, etc.), or to wrist locks in ground grappling situations (common in BJJ, submission wrestling, etc.)? -If possible, could you be a bit more specific about what, in particular, was helpful about it (structural strength of the fist versus open hand, fingers less exposed, etc.)?

Thanks. :)

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

with grapplers, the key is to not play their game. They grapple because they can't strike, so why fight them in their specialty.
One thing about most grapplers (who are serious about developing real fighting skills) is that they are very willing to spend some time cross training in striking arts, or at least, devote a serious amount of time to practicing their entries, clinches, and takedowns in a realistic manner with the best stand-up fighters they are able to train with.

Unfortunately, many strikers from traditonal arts do not exhibit anywhere near this level of earnestness and integrity in their training, which might be fine if it wasn't holding back anyone but themselves, -but it also hinders their students who are confident that their instructor has the relevent experience and knows first-hand what he or she is talking about.

If a wing chun instructor has real skills, it wouldn't be a problem to invite in an amatuer grappler or MMA guy (of the same size) that has trained on average about 6 hours per week for the past few years (a moderate level of experience) and have a friendly spar at a medium to high level of intensity. I respect the instructors who are willing do this, and feel sorry for the students of those instructors who are never willing to do this kind of thing, as it could only make them better martial artists and teachers if they would "step up to the plate." I don't think their students would care if they didn't dominate or "win", but just would benefit from seeing someone in their art with more experience than them, actually pulling off the techniques they are learning against a skilled fighter of another style. (Not just in a some cheesy demo format or against an unskilled / unconditioned fighter.)

-Lawrence

[Xiao3 Meng4]

Are you referring to standing wrist locks (common in aikido, classical jiu-jitsu, etc.), or to wrist locks in ground grappling situations (common in BJJ, submission wrestling, etc.)? -If possible, could you be a bit more specific about what, in particular, was helpful about it

I was initially referring to the effectiveness of the structure of a closed hand to guard against standing wrist locks, but using your fists to punch when your opponent is trying to lock you has its merits as well, both in stand up and on the ground. That aspect of it worked well for me on the ground. The structure of the fist was more relevant in the stand-up, mainly because that's where he was trying wrist locks this time.

CSP

[Knifefighter]

Making a fist can, indeed, facilitate in countering joint locks that attack the wrist (as opposed to those that compromise the elbow or shoulder) both standing and on the ground.