Wing Chun MMA

[Samson]

know of four Kung Fu guys that competed in the UFC...

Jason DeLucia was a red sash in Five Animals Kung Fu who competed in UFC II He finished his first opponent with a subtle Kung Fu maneuvre called a "Triangle from the Guard". He was armbarred by Royce in the second round.

David Levicki (sp?) who I believed studied Praying Mantis Kung Fu was promptly knocked out by Orlando Weit (kickboxer) in round one of UFC II.

Felix Lee Mitchell represented Shaolin Kung Fu and fought in UFC III as an alternate. He was paired up with Ken Shamrock in the second round and put up a reasonably good fight until Shammy finished him with a naked choke. To Felix's credit, Shamrock could not (or would not after learning he wouldn't be fighting Royce) continue to the finals.

A Wing Chun expert (whose name alludes me) competed in UFC IV as an exhibition/alternate fighter. The match lasted 44 seconds where he was dragged to the ground and pummelled to oblivion from the mount.

After that confrontation, I've heard very little concerning Kung Fu fighters competing in the UFC.

You hear alot of we cannot use our deadly tech in the cage but neither can the non Wing Chun guy so that makes it fair. Karate has eye gouges, throat strikes, knee breaks, groin kicks and arm breaks but seem to be able to make thier stuff work in the ring.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Samson,

the "WT in UFC" thread has more wing chun / MMA stuff (including links to video).

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35631

-Lawrence

[YungChun]

There was one UFC, I think, fight where the winner (of the match) used plain vanilla chain punches and literally chain punched his opponent across the octagon... I don't know if he was officially a "wing chun fighter" or not.

I don't think, for whatever reason that any of the "WCK" labeled fighters had much experience in the style or in fighting per se, big surprise. :rolleyes:

Perhaps some of the newer generation of folks will take WCK into NHB, K1 or other venues and, as crazy as it might sound to the lotus eaters, actually use the system in realistic "sport fighting." I see lots of people putting stuff out there, demos showing how WCK concept driven techniques can be used on the ground, to escape from the mount, to stay in the mount. Will we ever get to see that and WCK standup in the Ring?

[Samson]

There are a lot of different wing chun styles on this forum do any of you guys have any full contact wing chun videos from your school?

[Reggie1]

There was one UFC, I think, fight where the winner (of the match) used plain vanilla chain punches and literally chain punched his opponent across the octagon... I don't know if he was officially a "wing chun fighter" or not.

It was Vitor Belfort. He isn't a wing chun fighter.

[Samson]

Just had a chance to watch some of Emin's students doing full contact fighting on the old thread, that is some of the best wing chun I have ever seen wing chun vs wing chun love to see wing chun vs non wing chun videos? He seems to be a awesome sifu

[YungChun]

Just had a chance to watch some of Emin's students doing full contact fighting on the old thread, that is some of the best wing chun I have ever seen wing chun vs wing chun love to see wing chun vs non wing chun videos? He seems to be a awesome sifu

Which clip are you referring to?

[cerebus]

Yes please. Post a link to these vids, I'd like to see them. Also David Levicki in the UFC was billed as a Wing Chun guy.

[Jam_master]

I'd question how the title "wing chun expert" is used. IMO, I don't think there are many experts of anything these days, seeing how people especially MMA guy jump from style to style. MMA think should really be called modified greco style wrestling only because it has kicking and punching added to it, which is no big woop!

Also, from what I see too, any art where it's primary objective is to break, mame, or kill someone, like wing chun, will not fare well in any submission style contest, unless you happen to be a jiu-jitsu or some other form of grappler for which these contest and it's rules support mostly, IMO.

For example: I found for instance that most grpplers can take a punch. So if I was the wing chun guy, not trained in submission, or locks, etc, then my only option would be to go for the guy's vitals in order to stop him. That's how we are trained and also that's how I would approach it in the street, but as we all now, you cannot do arm breaks, jabs to the eyes, small joint locks, or do anything to the knees! The very arcenal of weapons a wing chun guy trains with is eliminated and stripped down to have to fight the wrestlers game. You might as well tie their hands behind their back, Which is why I say, you will never see, say an expert, kung fu practitioner or real combat practitioners competing and or able to win in this kind of environment. Now if we were to take it to the street, that may level the playing field somewhat so the Kung fu guy or street combat guy has now a fighting chance, and is able to use his very unique and specific techniques that otherwise are banned from the ring. Think about it, If I was the striker going against a grappler, I will not want to go to the ground, and if the guy can take punches and is much larger than me, I'll want to take him out the fastest way I know how, and that is, go for his vitals upon first contact. Also, if I see that he is on the ground and I'm still standing, I'm not going to jump omn top of him as I've seen many grapplers (UFC mostly) do to continue and beat the guy, no way, I'm going to stay up and stomp on his head, his ankels, his knees, etc..., where I still have the most advantage. :)

I think the main assumption being made by many MMA enthusiast is that UFC/MMA is actually limitless and all encomassing of many arts mixed together, and it really is not. Not while there are still safety issues involved for the purpose of sport, and those rules and regulations kind of already dictate how one can only be defeated and what methods you are actually afforded, in this case, it's grappling! Unless of course the other guy can't take a shot to the head, but if he can, as many seem to be able, the odds are in the grapplers favor 3 to 1 perhaps more, and would explain quite a lot to why many kung fu practitioners don't do well! Besides other more common and obvious factors like, not a real expert or compitent fighter at all which would be my first guess!LOL, but it wouldn't matter anyways, the deck is stacked against them no matters if he's a decorated special armed forces combat guy who has ears of his victims worn around his neck and who has seen more action than anyone! :cool:

[couch]

It's tricky.

Honestly, if I was going to compete in MMA, I would supplement my Wing Chun knowledge with grappling, kickboxing and whatever "fad" (term used to mean: the in-thing of the time) was in use at the time.

The reason is simply because a lot of the fighters I would face would have that knowledge as well. Maybe I would be the "stand-up" fighter, but I would have to have some knowledge of what I would be fighting against.

That's my bit.

[YongChun]

It's tricky.

Honestly, if I was going to compete in MMA, I would supplement my Wing Chun knowledge with grappling, kickboxing and whatever "fad" (term used to mean: the in-thing of the time) was in use at the time.

The reason is simply because a lot of the fighters I would face would have that knowledge as well. Maybe I would be the "stand-up" fighter, but I would have to have some knowledge of what I would be fighting against.

That's my bit.

I tend to agree that this is the most reasonable thing to do. If I wanted to beat the Thais, then I would study Thai boxing first which means to do it and to compete. If I wanted to beat the grapplers, then I would study their methods and train with them a lot. What's it hurt? In 5 or 10 years of playing around with those guys you could learn a lot. People easily waste 10 years of their life training something which they think might help and it doesn't in these situations. If your body is in great shape then give it a shot. Even a year of playing around in each modern fighting discipline is very useful. If your body is not in great shape then you shouldn't be competing in the first place. Get in top shape first. Most people don't train to enter these sporting events. For those people it's a waste of time to talk about these things or to even try to imagine how you might fare in these events. Mostly you would lose because you are trying to play their game which they are good at and you aren't. Maybe theoretically a purist can win if his teacher was a real fighter and good trainer or an exceptional trainer with a team of graduated sparring and training partners (level 1 to level n). Real fighters are strong, fast and tough and training three times a week for a few hours won't cut it. "A man's got to know his limitations." - Clint Eastwood

Ray

[anerlich]

any art where it's primary objective is to break, mame, or kill someone, like wing chun,

If this is Wing Chun's primary objective, then I suggest it fails miserably.

Where are all the dead bodies? Why were not the rooftops of HK covered with the corpses of the Choy Li Fut enemies?

Why wasn't Willam Cheung killed and Emin seriously damaged in their altercation?

If Emin claims 300 fights, why isn't he doing hard time for mass murder?

How many people, seriously, have you heard of who were killed or mamed [sic] after trying to mug people who defended themselves with WC?

My organisation has several fighters who have succeeded in intermediate level MMA and kickboxing competition. My Sifu had 37 pro kickboxing fights.

It IS certainly possible to tweak WC for competitive success, but not in MMA without studying BJJ or some other grappling art as well.

[lawrenceofidaho]

the odds are in the grapplers favor 3 to 1 perhaps more, and would explain quite a lot to why many kung fu practitioners don't do well!
If this was the only reason wing chun doesn't do well in MMA, then why do most of our guys usually get their @sses handed to them in K-1 / kickboxing competitions as well? (Exceptions such as Rick Spain and a handful of others non-withstanding.)

IMO, it has less to do with any competitive rule structure, and more to do with how most wing chun people train on a regular basis.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

If this was the only reason wing chun doesn't do well in MMA, then why do most of our guys usually get their @sses handed to them in K-1 / kickboxing competitions as well? (Exceptions such as Rick Spain and a handful of others non-withstanding.)

IMO, it has less to do with any competitive rule structure, and more to do with how most wing chun people train on a regular basis.

-Lawrence

I agree with this. It has all to do with the intensity of your training and your motivations behind it. If you are into MMA competitions then by all means, WC can be applied to it and used successfully, when a regular training regimen is implemented (meaning road work, sparring, bag work and such using WC movements, concepts, and techniques. I'm not going to do bag work using boxing punches as a WC practitioner, training for an event/competition). Does one have to crosstrain to deal with the grapplers and such? No IMO, but a study of their strategies and techniques would be recommended, so as to not be surprised by their tactics used against you in a MMA fight.

If you are not interested in such competitive events, fine too, as the ultimate meaning behind its creation and actual usage is not for competitive events. So once again, when looking at individuals, you cannot judge the system, but ONLY judge the individual using it. When trying to state claims to a systems effectiveness, then you have to look at the system it self and at the why' and how's of that system being analyzed.


James

[lawrenceofidaho]

I agree with this. It has all to do with the intensity of your training and your motivations behind it. If you are into MMA competitions then by all means, WC can be applied to it and used successfully, when a regular training regimen is implemented (meaning road work, sparring, bag work and such using WC movements, concepts, and techniques.
James, I can't believe we finally agree on something!! Hahahaha....... :D

Does one have to crosstrain to deal with the grapplers and such? No IMO, but a study of their strategies and techniques would be recommended, so as to not be surprised by their tactics used against you in a MMA fight.
Unless you train against someone who is actually skilled at using those tactics, -"knowing" about them can only do so much for you.

-Imagine a wrestler saying he was ready to fight an MMA fighter with 10 years of Wing Chun experience saying; "Well, I've studied a couple of wing chun videos, and I know about their tactics, so I'm ready for my opponent's stand-up game." (Would you bet on a guy who would say something like that? -I wouldn't.......)

-Lawrence

[sihing]

James, I can't believe we finally agree on something!! Hahahaha....... :D


Unless you train against someone who is actually skilled at using those tactics, -"knowing" about them can only do so much for you.

-Imagine a wrestler saying he was ready to fight an MMA fighter with 10 years of Wing Chun experience saying; "Well, I've studied a couple of wing chun videos, and I know about their tactics, so I'm ready for my opponent's stand-up game." (Would you bet on a guy who would say something like that? -I wouldn't.......)

-Lawrence

I do agree that it would be best to actually train with some similar in style to that which you are going to be competing against, but on the street this is not possible, so agressive attack is preferred and the tactic of surprise works very well, hopefully though, you are able to surprise the one you are fighting with first before he surprises you.

As for the wrestler being able to handle the MMA with 10yrs experience in WC, this is undetermined and simply a "What if" question. What if the wrestler has intense chi kung training and can call upon his jing to make him immoveable? Then what???

James

[n.mitch]

Didnt Keith Mazza win all his fights in Extreme Fighting. most wing chun people dont do wing chun to compete. like most martial artisrt. wing chun could be adapted to do well in mma. but most of the techniques are straightline. Kick a knee cap with a straightline attacks and it breaks, not very sportsman like..A good wing chun person should have good footwork to stop the shoot takedown, but some of the wc fighters in the early ufc didnt. i have studied bjj although not for that long, but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

[sihing]

Didnt Keith Mazza win all his fights in Extreme Fighting. most wing chun people dont do wing chun to compete. like most martial artisrt. wing chun could be adapted to do well in mma. but most of the techniques are straightline. Kick a knee cap with a straightline attacks and it breaks, not very sportsman like..A good wing chun person should have good footwork to stop the shoot takedown, but some of the wc fighters in the early ufc didnt. i have studied bjj although not for that long, but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

Oh Oh, I see some Ya Buts Ya Buts coming on.......

[anerlich]

like most martial artisrt. wing chun could be adapted to do well in mma.

It has, by some.

"but most of the techniques are straightline. Kick a knee cap with a straightline attacks and it breaks, not very sportsman like.."

Straightline? You mean like jabs, crosses, teeps?

The knee is far from the only straight line target.

A good wing chun person should have good footwork to stop the shoot takedown, but some of the wc fighters in the early ufc didnt.

Your point is ...? They'd be better IMO learning to sprawl properly and get back up quickly.

i have studied bjj although not for that long,

I've been doing it since 1999 and pretty full on.


but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

Most BJJ guys learn some vale tudo, how to strike and defend against strikes on the ground etc. This is arguably an MA in itself. Rickson has a great striking game on the floor.

Both straight and round punches have application depending on the position of you and the other guy, as do kicks (both straight and round). A good BJJ guy will laugh at you or break all your fingers off if you try pressure point striking on him. And bil jee won't work real well if you're underneath the mount or side control, your likely position next position from the guard top OR bottom if you don't have some grappling skills.

[Edmund]

-Imagine a wrestler saying he was ready to fight an MMA fighter with 10 years of Wing Chun experience saying; "Well, I've studied a couple of wing chun videos, and I know about their tactics, so I'm ready for my opponent's stand-up game." (Would you bet on a guy who would say something like that? -I wouldn't.......)


I'm wondering what exactly this wrestler is going to have to prepare for.

Is WC such an amazing different stand-up game that he can't just train with someone who does a different stand-up art and do just fine?

It's not like he has to actually outstrike his opponent.

[n.mitch]

it would be hard to breakall your fingers and laught whilst bil jee strike in eye socket(when fighting for real not sport which wing chun is designed for) wing chun has chi na (locking) where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn' Brazil. most crosses travil in a round circle no matter how small they are not straight they tellergraph because the shoulder moves a lot more than a straight punch. you shouldn't need to sprawl just sink on back leg lower center of gravity then redirect. if lower shoot at ankle your footwork should cover it and your ankle should'nt be there. ;)

[sihing]

it would be hard to breakall your fingers and laught whilst bil jee strike in eye socket(when fighting for real not sport which wing chun is designed for) wing chun has chi na (locking) where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn' Brazil. most crosses travil in a round circle no matter how small they are not straight they tellergraph because the shoulder moves a lot more than a straight punch. you shouldn't need to sprawl just sink on back leg lower center of gravity then redirect. if lower shoot at ankle your footwork should cover it and your ankle should'nt be there. ;)

Good post. Don't let the naysayers, or ones that think mixing WC with other MA to fill in the gaps get to you. Yeah of course we all know the grapplers have defenses against strikes while on the ground, this is a given. Nothing is easy in fighting, especially if the two fighters are skilled in their craft. The point I always see in post by guys like Anerlich or others the mix WC with BJJ/GJJ/Catch etc.., is that they always guarantee the grappler to bring us WC'ners down, and that any counter we may have to the shoot/takedown is useless and totally ineffective (because the grapplers themselves have already thought up every counter conceivable, and that anyone else not in the grappling arts do not have the knowledge or skill to do the same, lol). Well IMO no one can say that. It's all in the timing and execution of the movements that count. So in essence, no one including all the Gracie's or expert grapplers out there can guarantee 100% all of the time that there ability to take someone down will work all the time. Neither can I guarantee that the counter to that takedown will work 100% of the time. There are too many variables to deal with when trying to explain this on internet forum, the Ya Buts will be coming out all over the place. All you can do is to provide a basic solution to the problem and work it out from there when needed. WC provides one with various solutions to problems, in a very simple, effective and efficient manner. All of these solutions can be easily adapted to handle many different situations that are not always practiced in class environments or thought of traditionally. This is key to an art's overall effectiveness, the ability to adapt and still overcome.

N.mitch, I like your defense to the shoot, I prescribe to something similar to that also....


James

[Edmund]

What the hell is wrong with sprawling?
Not basic enough?

[sihing]

What the hell is wrong with sprawling?
Not basic enough?
No mobility when you sprawl. Not that it doesn't work, or that there is not a place for it. Maybe as a last resort IMO. It's a grapplers response because that is what they want to do in the first place, grapple.

James

[Edmund]

No mobility when you sprawl. Not that it doesn't work, or that there is not a place for it. Maybe as a last resort IMO. It's a grapplers response because that is what they want to do in the first place, grapple.

James

No mobility?
Unlike sinking down on your back leg the WC way. That's not particularly mobile either. What sort of mobility are you expecting to do? AND I don't see how it's going to actually stop someone taking you down. You're on your back leg while they're driving into you. It's not good for balance.

Plenty of standup strikers have sprawled, stood back up and knocked the hell out of grapplers in MMA competition so it's not JUST a grapplers response.

[anerlich]

it would be hard to breakall your fingers and laught whilst bil jee strike in eye socket(when fighting for real not sport which wing chun is designed for)

Eye attacks, whether you call it "bil jee" or just an eye gouge, are not that difficult for anyone. If you need 10 years of WC to put a finger in someone's eye, you're supremely unco.

If both you and a skilled groundfighter, are trying to attack each other's eyes, bite, fishhook etc. while one is in the other's guard (your scenario, not mine), I'm betting on him.

BJJ was designed for self defense. Rickson's probably had as many streetfights as Emin.

wing chun has chi na (locking) where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn' Brazil.

It does, but I've seen no one in WC whose chin na would be a match for a BJJ purple belt. I do know a KF guy whose chin na is excellent, but he also happens to be a nidan in JJJ.

Jujitsu originated in Japan around the 16th century. I recommend "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher, if you want to actually sound informed on the history of Jujitsu.

most crosses travil in a round circle

is there another kind of circle? You need to get someone to show you how to throw a proper cross.

no matter how small they are not straight they tellergraph because the shoulder moves a lot more than a straight punch. you shouldn't need to sprawl just sink on back leg lower center of gravity then redirect.

WC guys still keep getting hit with hooks and missing with straight punches. Theory and practice are a lot closer in theory than they are in practice.

Can you show me any unchoreographed vids of anyone actually pulling this off against someone who can shoot properly?

if lower shoot at ankle your footwork should cover it and your ankle should'nt be there.

Actually, if we can play "would" and "should", how did you manage to not avoid the fight entirely?

Are shoots the only possible takedowns? If not, what other defenses do you have to the common takedowns?

N.mitch, I like your defense to the shoot, I prescribe to something similar to that also....

You're both entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine.

[lawrenceofidaho]

No mobility?
Unlike sinking down on your back leg the WC way. That's not particularly mobile either. What sort of mobility are you expecting to do? AND I don't see how it's going to actually stop someone taking you down. You're on your back leg while they're driving into you. It's not good for balance.

Plenty of standup strikers have sprawled, stood back up and knocked the hell out of grapplers in MMA competition so it's not JUST a grapplers response.
Good post.......
-L

[lawrenceofidaho]

Can you show me any unchoreographed vids of anyone actually pulling this off against someone who can shoot properly?
I think it's safe to say that none of us should hold our breath waiting for such a video to materialize.

-Lawrence

[n.mitch]

It is hard to sink on your back leg in a twc neutrel stance hence why you would have trouble doing it,your balance is up to high.
Try it a front stance its a lot easier. a shoot works because they take your balance because they attack with a lower center of gravity and drive you. which is why it worked so well in early UFCs against stand up fighters who were not use to it, their balance was to high and they were coming foward. You should be able to absorb there force, just like using a negative redirecting tan sau against a hook as opposed to using a bill sau( put your hips in to it) and sink. ;)

Anyone can do a bil jee i agree, but the reason you dont learn the bil jee form early in your training is cause you need the basics to develop whiping energy and correct hip power, which i know hip power is negated if someone has the mount but you still have elbow force to create power(or should have).
When a right cross if performed correctly(as taught by a boxing instructor not a martial artist) you pivote your rear foot and throw your shoulder in to it, you have to to get power cause you get very little elbow force and no wrist snap( hence the beauty of a wc punch) it isn't a straight punch or it would be called that instead of a CROSS.
For other take down defence ie hip throw the same defence will work just lower your center of gravity and it will be very hard for them to throw you.
You should know how to sink from the A stance, and to apply it with hip power learnt from the turning at the start of the chum kiu twisting and sinking into the ground like a cork screw.
but like you said each to their own, and what works for me mightnt work for you and vise versa.

[anerlich]

what works for me mightnt work for you and vise versa

That's fair enough.

BTW, with regard to straight punch and cross, you might find Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" interesting. IMO there are many similarities between his punching approach (using vertical fists) and TWC. The book's out of print, but it is interesting if you can find it.

[anerlich]

Plenty of standup strikers have sprawled, stood back up and knocked the hell out of grapplers in MMA competition so it's not JUST a grapplers response.

I agree. The sprawl mightn't leave you in a position to run, but one possible alternative, that of getting taken down and ending up in bottom position, is a lot less mobile still. We apparently strongly disagree on the likelihood of that if other approaches are attempted.

In any case, sprawl properly, you are on top of the guy and he is doing a face plant underneath you. You can jump up and soccerball kick him, you're in a great position to knee him in the head or ribs, or apply a variety of blows before getting up and beating feet.

If you escape the first takedown, you don't want HIM getting up again. The method I discuss allows you to beat the takedown and control him, so you end up in a BETTER position to strike him with those "supreme at infighting range" WC strikes from than you would taking pot shots from out of contact range.

I thought WC strategy involved attaining contact, then moving to greater control while striking. I would say the sprawl fits perfectly into that if the guy is trying to grab your legs.

Neutral stance (which no one with any sense fights from anyway) makes one vulnerable to double leg attacks. Front stance avoids this, but instead makes you potentially open to single leg attacks. Stance alone does not a takedown defence make (or a striking defense for that matter).

[SevenStar]

i have studied bjj although not for that long, but when you ar rolling there is a lot of oppetunity to bil jee(strike) to the eyes a major WC weapon. also the straight punches work very well in the guard top or bottom as opposed to round punches

Not if you are doing it right. You want to completely smother your opponent's space. When I have you in the ideal side mount, my head is smothered against your body and your arms are wrapped up. If I am on top of you (mount) and you extend your arm to eye gouge, strike, etc. you WILL get arm barred. If you have someone in your guard, punching isn't that effective - however, he can VERY effectively punch you. on the bottom, you would be better served by sweeping him or going for submissions.

[sihing]

Not if you are doing it right. You want to completely smother your opponent's space. When I have you in the ideal side mount, my head is smothered against your body and your arms are wrapped up. If I am on top of you (mount) and you extend your arm to eye gouge, strike, etc. you WILL get arm barred. If you have someone in your guard, punching isn't that effective - however, he can VERY effectively punch you. on the bottom, you would be better served by sweeping him or going for submissions.

That was my impression of the Grapplers response, so thank you Seven for confirming it. They have there ways of doing things and I'm sure they have thought about getting eye gouged and so forth. Like Seven said, "They want to completely smother your space", this is also a observation I have noticed, the idea being to make it hard for you to move and/or strike them while they sinch down on you. The counter would be to make space before they sinch it in, and apply it at the appropiate time and space.

James

[SevenStar]

It is hard to sink on your back leg in a twc neutrel stance hence why you would have trouble doing it,your balance is up to high.
Try it a front stance its a lot easier. a shoot works because they take your balance because they attack with a lower center of gravity and drive you. which is why it worked so well in early UFCs against stand up fighters who were not use to it, their balance was to high and they were coming foward. You should be able to absorb there force, just like using a negative redirecting tan sau against a hook as opposed to using a bill sau( put your hips in to it) and sink. ;)

that merely changes the takedown angle. Change to a single leg and you will still take him down.


Anyone can do a bil jee i agree, but the reason you dont learn the bil jee form early in your training is cause you need the basics to develop whiping energy and correct hip power, which i know hip power is negated if someone has the mount but you still have elbow force to create power(or should have).[/auote]

when you are mounted, you are at a severe reach disadvantage. you will only have access to his midsection, and enxtending to strike it will result in your arm getting locked.

[quote]When a right cross if performed correctly(as taught by a boxing instructor not a martial artist)

boxing is a martial sport AND a martial art, IMO, but I digress...


you pivote your rear foot and throw your shoulder in to it, you have to to get power cause you get very little elbow force and no wrist snap( hence the beauty of a wc punch) it isn't a straight punch or it would be called that instead of a CROSS.

That is wrong. I was taught to snap the wrist. Also, let's not forget the other name... THE STRAIGHT RIGHT...


For other take down defence ie hip throw the same defence will work just lower your center of gravity and it will be very hard for them to throw you.
You should know how to sink from the A stance, and to apply it with hip power learnt from the turning at the start of the chum kiu twisting and sinking into the ground like a cork screw.


Then you open yourself for something else. Remember, an experienced thrower will throw in combinations, the same way a striker strikes in combos. When you sink - especially if you split your legs, you become VERY sesceptible to things like o uchi gari - the major outer reap.

[SevenStar]

That was my impression of the Grapplers response, so thank you Seven for confirming it. They have there ways of doing things and I'm sure they have thought about getting eye gouged and so forth. Like Seven said, "They want to completely smother your space", this is also a observation I have noticed, the idea being to make it hard for you to move and/or strike them while they sinch down on you. The counter would be to make space before they sinch it in, and apply it at the appropiate time and space.

James


The counter would be to escape - that's where grappling knowledge comes in. Instead of strying to strike before the space is closed - anything can happen - what if you miss the strike? Now you are done. While you have the space, escape, THEN worry about the counter. A prime rule of grappling is position before submission.

[sihing]

The counter would be to escape - that's where grappling knowledge comes in. Instead of strying to strike before the space is closed - anything can happen - what if you miss the strike? Now you are done. While you have the space, escape, THEN worry about the counter. A prime rule of grappling is position before submission.

Very true. The idea as I understand our counters, is to also move out of the space or direction of the grapplers force while controling their balance and center of gravity. We have a saying, never force someone to the ground but lead them, which means that while you are leading them down you need to have superior balance and stability, while maintaining mobility (this takes practice and cannot just be applied when the concept is conceptually understood). When that control is in place, the strikes can happen, in places not allowed in MMA competitions.

Your prime rule is similar in my WC school also, except it says "Position while attacking"

James

[SevenStar]

where do you think grappling came from originally it wasn' Brazil.

wasn't china either. EVERY civilization has had some indigenous form orf wrestling. It is not chinese in origin by any means. Now, from a bjj perspective, that came from judo, which came from jujutsu - jujutsu originated in japan. People speculate it has chinese origin but it cannot be definitively proven.

[Juudas]

"jujutsu originated in japan"

How come? Since almost everything else in Japanese culture has its origin China, why would martial arts make any difference? Traditionally, Chinese martial arts had three elements - kicking-punching, wrestling, and so called soft techniques (qin na or chin na). So anyone who wished to be a fighter had to master these three elemetns of combat, of which wrestling probably was the most ancient one (even chimpansees wrestle). At some point in history, when Chinese martial arts were carried further to east , Okinawa and Japan, these elements became separated. kicking-punching became the foundation of karate, wrestling became the foundation of judo, qin na the foundation of aikido. Jiujitsu was and is more or less a combination of all these elements - with empashis on throws and locks, thus being the closest to the original, i.e. old chinese fighting style. So we can say that the traditional chinese form of fighting survived in Japan over centuries while China was experiencing all kinds of trouble during which even the old ways of proper fighting were forgotten.

[SevenStar]

"jujutsu originated in japan"

How come? Since almost everything else in Japanese culture has its origin China, why would martial arts make any difference? Traditionally, Chinese martial arts had three elements - kicking-punching, wrestling, and so called soft techniques (qin na or chin na). So anyone who wished to be a fighter had to master these three elemetns of combat, of which wrestling probably was the most ancient one (even chimpansees wrestle). At some point in history, when Chinese martial arts were carried further to east , Okinawa and Japan, these elements became separated. kicking-punching became the foundation of karate, wrestling became the foundation of judo, qin na the foundation of aikido. Jiujitsu was and is more or less a combination of all these elements - with empashis on throws and locks, thus being the closest to the original, i.e. old chinese fighting style. So we can say that the traditional chinese form of fighting survived in Japan over centuries while China was experiencing all kinds of trouble during which even the old ways of proper fighting were forgotten.


nope. Actually, if you ask some people, they will tell you that they can see more similarities in shuai chaio and sumo than you can in shuai chiao and jujutsu. As far as history can tell, jujutsu was it's own development. There are stories that gempin showed three japanese men three locks and the three men expanded on them, creating the first style of jujutsu, but as stated, it can't be proven.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Very true. The idea as I understand our counters, is to also move out of the space or direction of the grapplers force while controling their balance and center of gravity. We have a saying, never force someone to the ground but lead them, which means that while you are leading them down you need to have superior balance and stability, while maintaining mobility (this takes practice and cannot just be applied when the concept is conceptually understood).
This requires (even of high level atheletes) using the entire bodyweight behind the hips (sprawling) to be effective. -How can you make "leading them to the ground" functional (enough force for real control against an explosive opponent) without using your full bodyweight in sprawling type of way??? -Please explain further.......
:confused:
-Lawrence

[sihing]

This requires (even of high level atheletes) using the entire bodyweight behind the hips (sprawling) to be effective. -How can you make "leading them to the ground" functional (enough force for real control against an explosive opponent) without using your full bodyweight in sprawling type of way??? -Please explain further.......
:confused:
-Lawrence


Force has one direction right? When intercepted correctly (after lots and lots of practice) you learn to lead them to the ground, not meaning you just put your hands on them to show them this way to go, but rather instead of muscling them to the ground you use their force against them combined with your own natural power, proper timing & side stepping. When I teach, one concept I like to reinforce is the idea of sucking the opponents attacks in, letting him think he has landed it and then at the last second, using the element of surprise, use his force against him. The key with this is to protect yourself first with proper positioning and guard (always try to have a barrier between yourself and your opponent, better my guard than my body), economy of motion, perception and contact reflexes. Like everything it takes practice but is very effective once learned, regardless if they are shooting, punching or kicking you for their attack.

You are using your weight behind your movements, but this is also being used in conjunction with your opponent’s momentum and your own usage of power at that right moment.

James

[YongChun]

Here is something called an Anaconda Choke to counter the shoot. It doesn't directly relate to Wing Chun except that any kind of fighting analysis is useful. To me it points out that grappling is not just doing Wing Chun on the ground. Instead you have to analyze all kinds of small details particular to that environment of fighting. The instructor in the video clip points out various details which if not done will make the technique fail. Of course there are many other solutions and also Wing Chun solutions before you get taken down and a few after you get taken down. But if your repertoire is limited than sooner or later your options run out fast and you will be in big trouble if trying to play the grappling game. Here is a link for a whole pile of grappling counters. If you are caught in one of those situations then do you have a Wing Chun solution?

http://bjj.org/techniques/

Ray

[lawrenceofidaho]

Force has one direction right?
Hmmmmmm....... What about eliptical / circular motions??

When intercepted correctly (after lots and lots of practice) you learn to lead them to the ground, not meaning you just put your hands on them to show them this way to go, but rather instead of muscling them to the ground you use their force against them
There are numerous takedown techniques, and many of them do not (initially) drive toward the ground, so it will be difficult in those situations to "show them the way", -and even the ones that do go to the ground immediately, the grappler will likely have his legs placed powerfully underneath him and could explode upward (with "wing chun-like" ground power), and be very hard to control.

-Few grapplers these days will commit to an all-out, single shot attack, and the ones who do, will probably be very good at it. (Be careful!!)
:eek:

When I teach, one concept I like to reinforce is the idea of sucking the opponents attacks in, letting him think he has landed it and then at the last second, using the element of surprise, use his force against him.
This sounds very much like a description of a sprawl, -but then again.......

The key with this is to protect yourself first with proper positioning and guard (always try to have a barrier between yourself and your opponent, better my guard than my body), economy of motion, perception and contact reflexes.
More detail, please. (e.g. - Foot goes here, forearm makes contact here, etc.) :confused:

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Hey Lawrence,

Well as far as I know and have seen, humans can not travel in more than one direction at a time, yes they can change directions fast but the key is to use their force against them at the right time, while in the right position in comparison to them. The right position in my book is always to the side of the frontal area. Now if someone you are fighting is being elusive and non committed in their footwork and if someone has good balance/center of gravity while moving, then it all becomes more difficult, then of course it is harder to knock/pull/lead them off balance, but if this is the case are they really attacking you, meaning is the attack explosive enough to go thru your defense and allow them to successfully get the attack in? Do good fighters attack slowly or with explosiveness?

As for grapplers not fully committing to an all out single shoot attack, this may be the case. But whenever I see them I see all out commitment to the shoot with them driving the opponent backwards, but what do I know:D

The concept I use to teach students is applied every where in combat, not just against the shoot, but it can work well against them if applied correctly. That is the key, applying it correctly. In the end IMO, fighting effectively comes down to 1) your ability to see and read your opponents intentions, 2) controlling distance effectively, 3) timing- doing the right thing when required, after all the basics and foundational things have been absorbed. When in a fight your full attention should be on what your opponent is up to, not what your own body is doing and the mechanics there.

Regarding more details...One strategy I like to use is stepping to the outside of your opponents lead foot/leg once he has initiated his attack. This requires you to always have the lead foot/leg down the center of your stance at all times (we use a side neutral stance) during the non contact stage or range of fighting (outside kicking range). Side neutral stances allow greater lateral movement, and IMO this is what is needed more so at this stage than forward/backward movements. When any type of force, kick/punch/shoot/tackle etc.. comes your way, you side step either to the inside or outside of your opponents lead leg/foot. This is a safer position, while attacking at the same time with a variety of tools. When the shoot is on, one way is to use your Man Sao to attack the opponents neck area or head (with outer forearm or side palm strike), thus making contact to read the energy from the attack (therefore how committed is he), developed through chi-sao training. At this point I can kneel on one knee while directing him down to the ground with a lop sao or neck control, myself on top continuing the attack. There are many variations, this is just a general idea. I wish I had some storage space online and then I could get a video clip to show. Again, the idea is to avoid the direction of his force by side stepping, and controlling then while facing the point of contact, leading them to the ground. You will be using your own natural force with the body leading the way.

Gotta run...


James

[Wayfaring]

There are numerous takedown techniques, and many of them do not (initially) drive toward the ground, so it will be difficult in those situations to "show them the way", -and even the ones that do go to the ground immediately, the grappler will likely have his legs placed powerfully underneath him and could explode upward (with "wing chun-like" ground power), and be very hard to control.

-Few grapplers these days will commit to an all-out, single shot attack, and the ones who do, will probably be very good at it. (Be careful!!)
:eek:

-Lawrence

Did you see the first match in the Ultimate Fight Night show between Drew Fickett and Josh Koshchek?

Josh (division I top-notch wrestler proven in MMA fights) committed himself to a takedown under a punch, caught a knee to the head, and was dropped, then back mounted and choked out.

Once people start training against the shoot, they're not unhittable nor unstoppable.

[sihing]

Did you see the first match in the Ultimate Fight Night show between Drew Fickett and Josh Koshchek?

Josh (division I top-notch wrestler proven in MMA fights) committed himself to a takedown under a punch, caught a knee to the head, and was dropped, then back mounted and choked out.

Once people start training against the shoot, they're not unhittable nor unstoppable.

Like every Martial Arts concept/principal/technique, it has to be done correctly in the right time and place. The question is how easy/hard is it for the everyday guy/gal to apply to someone under stress. The more complex the movement is the harder it will be to apply, therefore simplicity always rules....

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

Wayfaring,

When I referred to a "commited" shoot, I should have qualified it more carefully. I meant to say that few grapplers (exceptions noted) shoot in a way that puts all their eggs into a single basket, (i.e. -where they set up a situation where they will either; obtain the takedown, or put themselves in a seriously exposed postition when they fail.) The majority know how to adapt fairly easily to offlining movements, avoid most heavy strikes, and abort the takedown attempt with a reasonable amount of safety if things aren't going well.

Did you see the first match in the Ultimate Fight Night show between Drew Fickett and Josh Koshchek?
I did not, but I have seen Drew fight in the "King of the Cage", and was impressed with his skill and ability.

Josh (division I top-notch wrestler proven in MMA fights) committed himself to a takedown under a punch, caught a knee to the head, and was dropped, then back mounted and choked out.
To me, that means "The Fickett Method" of stopping a shoot with position & strikes has been validated against a skilled opponent. -What I am questioning here on this thread is "The Roller Method" of defending a takedown........

I'm quite sure that Mr. Fickett worked hard on that defense, -training against skilled guys that mixed up realistic strikes and realistic shoots who were trying to be deceptive & confusing. Eventually, he had put in enough "live" practice hours to where he could nail that defense a high percentage of the time against guys who really knew what they were doing.

Based on what he has stated in his posts, Mr. James "Sihing" Roller, trains himself and his students quite differently than Mr. Fickett (or the majority MMA fighters), and because Mr. Roller's methods have not been validated against high level opponents the way Mr. Fickett's have, I am questioning whether his arguments are sound.

Once people start training against the shoot, they're not unhittable nor unstoppable.
I never meant to imply such....... Clearly, a shooting grappler is hittable and stoppable, as I, myself, am able to pull it off (at times). -I certainly do not consider myself to be an elite fighter, but I have at least trained with / against guys who know how to shoot realistically.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Like every Martial Arts concept/principal/technique, it has to be done correctly in the right time and place. The question is how easy/hard is it for the everyday guy/gal to apply to someone under stress. The more complex the movement is the harder it will be to apply, therefore simplicity always rules....
James
True, James......... (I agree completely with what you stated above.)

We have to be wary though, of the danger of over simplifying, or of underestimating that which we have not yet faced.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

True, James......... (I agree completely with what you stated above.)

We have to be wary though, of the danger of over simplifying, or of underestimating that which we have not yet faced.

-Lawrence

Underestimating is the first step to defeat.. One should never be thinking victory, defeat, anticipation, estimating or underestimating when fighting. Thinking is not the key, observation and understanding your opponent is IMO.

When investigating other methods of MA, personally I haven't yet underestimated any of what I have seen, but in the same breath I didn't agree with it all either. All of us have that right to judge systems. I've seen somethings that IMO are more effective than other methods demonstrated but all methods were workable.

Since this is a written forum, all of everything we all say is the same worth. Your fact is my theory and visa versa. Your experience is not mine and visa versa also, so unless we all meet in person then what else are we supposed to do when visiting this forum? Of course I have used the methods I described in my posts, otherwise how would I have learned them and be able to teach them, and all I did was describe to all interested the concepts & principals behind the method. The process is to be taught what to do, understand the theroy/concept behind it and then work it. The more one practices it the better they will be at it. In the end a punch is just a punch, a shoot is just a shoot, just that the pro's do it all faster, and the counter to that is adaption. Either you will adapt when the situation is happening or you won't. End of story.

Again this is not about the INDIVIDUAL, but what the system teaches.

Concerning my generalization on shoot defenses, if it fails I too can always sprawl...


James

[lawrenceofidaho]

I've seen somethings that IMO are more effective than other methods demonstrated but all methods were workable.
I am personally only interested in methods that are workable against skilled and resisting opponents. (This may mean that adaptations have to be made to a particular method, -but so what? I don't care how "pure" it is, so long as it keeps me from getting my @ss kicked.)

Since this is a written forum, all of everything we all say is the same worth.
I disagree, James.......

If two scientists advance opposing hypothosis, -but only one of them adheres to strict testing protocol and encourages peer review, -while the other does neither, and also has all of his "research" funded by a "for-profit" organization that directs what experiments he can perform, -how can you honestly say that their published results have equal validity??

Either you will adapt when the situation is happening or you won't. End of story.... Again this is not about the INDIVIDUAL, but what the system teaches.
It is one thing to say you will adapt, and it is quite another to train how to adapt under realistic pressure and circumstances so that your chances of actual success are greatly increased.......

Concerning my generalization on shoot defenses, if it fails I too can always sprawl...
Have you trained it?

-Lawrence

[sihing]

One thing I would like to add...

Although I may not agree with the concept or philosophy of this or that Martial Art/ist, it does not mean I do not respect what they teach or underestimate what they teach, with the feeling that what so and so is doing is nothing near as effective what I am personally doing now in my MA life. IMO this is arrogance and overconfidence, and the first step to failure in MA. We all view things through colored glasses, regardless of how openminded we try to be.

An effective MA to me means that anyone and everyone has a equal opportunity to learn that MA and be able to apply it to some effectiveness for themselves (with some dedicated consistent effort over a period of time), not developing everyone to the status of "Deadly Fighter", as this is the individuals responsibility if that is what they want to get out of it. All highly skilled Martial Artist from whatever system are dangerous fighters.

James

[sihing]

I am personally only interested in methods that are workable against skilled and resisting opponents. (This may mean that adaptations have to be made to a particular method, -but so what? I don't care how "pure" it is, so long as it keeps me from getting my @ss kicked.)


I disagree, James.......

If two scientists advance opposing hypothosis, -but only one of them adheres to strict testing protocol and encourages peer review, -while the other does neither, and also has all of his "research" funded by a "for-profit" organization that directs what experiments he can perform, -how can you honestly say that their published results have equal validity??


It is one thing to say you will adapt, and it is quite another to train how to adapt under realistic pressure and circumstances so that your chances of actual success are greatly increased.......


Have you trained it?

-Lawrence


I agree also that in the end it is what works that matters, so we are the same on that one...

Who said that what I was writing in my posts hasn't been or wasn't tested? Just because I don't train it hours a day doesn't mean I didn't in the past or that the ones today learning it are not? Basically in the end, when you are graded/tested you have no choice but to prove it works when needed. If you pass the test you have proven it for yourself. When you teach it to others and they go through that same testing procedure, you have proven it can work for others the same as yourself, so it is not about an individuals attributes, but about what the system teaches and how effective it is. After all these years if I (and Sifu also) saw that something wasn't working we wouldn't be teaching it

I agree with your paragraph about adaptation, "to know and not to do is not to know" is a saying I prescribe to. Let’s say for example, that I meet up with a skilled grappler and we spar and he is successful 6 out of 10 times taking me to the ground. Now if all it takes is for me to practice a bit more to bring those numbers down to 2 or 3 times out of 10 what does that mean? IMO it means that all I need to do is work on it in a physical way so that my body has absorbed the timing, coordination of what needs to be done, not that the actual method is ineffective, but can someone make an ineffective movement more effective by doing the same, working it more and more in practice?

Have I practiced the sprawl? No, not for a long while.

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bless you, Lawrence...your patience is admirable "when suffering fools" (Shakespeare?)...

and your arguments are superb!

It kinda reminds me of something Walter Mondale once said about Ronald Reagan during their first presidential debate in 1980: "I'm always amazed how this man can be SO CONVINCED that he's right and SO WRONG all at the same time!"

[reneritchie]

There's a term called "puncher's chance" which refers to the situation where, on any given night, a passably competant fighter can get in a lucky punch and knock his opponent clean out. Hendo knocked out Renzo in a similar way.

However, this is essentially a bet or a hope, and IMHO, anything that is not repeatable under stress is not a skill, and has no place in a realistic strategy.

"High percentage" and "bread and butter" are better alternatives :)

[Wayfaring]

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it's good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you're going to try and "stick" a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn't a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?

[SevenStar]

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it's good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you're going to try and "stick" a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn't a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?


I dunno if that's such a good idea. To practice missing, getting caught, etc. advocates you performing a movement either too early or too late. IMO, this is bad, as you may program the early / lkate response into yourself. IMO, the way to handle this is live training. You won't stop EVERY shoot from EVERY person. When you miss or are too early, deal with the situation. In our bjj and mma classes, we have guys who shoot better than I sprawl. We also have some who aren't as good as me. Consequently, I have plenty of time training early and late responses as well as picture perfect ones without purposely altering my timing to create a desired result.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it's good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you're going to try and "stick" a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn't a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?
Wayfaring,

I think this is generally a good idea to experiment with....... Not as something to practice for numerous repetitions, but at least worth trying a few times as an indicator of what may, or may not be possible.

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it's good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you're going to try and "stick" a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn't a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?


***GOOD POST. One of the greatest catch wrestlers of all time (many would say THE greatest wrestler of all time - not just catch)...whose name was Lou thesz, 6 time heavyweight NWA wrestling champion (National Wrestling Alliance) - was trained by three of the very best catch wrestlers ever...(George Tragos, Ad Santell, and Ed "Strangler" Lewis...the same Ad Santell who went to Japan in the early 1900's and beat, as in SUBMITTED, every Japanese judo/jiu jitsu fighter at the kudokan that he faced)...

Lou Thesz tells a story in his biography about how every training session he ever had with George Tragos started with Lou being in an inferior position - and having to wrestle his way out of it.

He attributed this kind of training as being a major part of his success later on in his career.

I am a big believer in this kind of training - since the unpredictability of the "real world" could quite conceivably result in finding yourself in a compromising situation/position/receiving end of a punch, kick, takedown, throw, etc...and I would much prefer to have had a reasonable amount of training for such contingencies before it may ever happen for real.

[Matrix]

I dunno if that's such a good idea. To practice missing, getting caught, etc. advocates you performing a movement either too early or too late. 7*,
As a general rule, I would agree with you. However Wayfaring's idea does have some merit. It's planning for contigencies, which are certainly not the desired outcome, but sometimes you - well, maybe not you, but I - might just caught out of position or out of sync. As Lawrence said, I wouldn't want to make a steady diet out of it, but it's worth trying out.

[Wayfaring]

Seven,

I'm with you on not hard-wiring improper timeframe responses by many repetitions of "missing", but where I'm coming from are basically two concepts here:

1. Timing - I like to work any kind of drills with timing at slower speeds, and try and catch the "feel" of the proper timing. I do this by noticing the "feel" of being early, late, and on the money. Then I dial in the early and late to being closer and closer to on the money until I can stick it every time. Then I vary the speed, angles, and other variables and work sticking the timing. Once in a while I'll throw in an early or late to still make sure I can detect the feeling of it. In live environments many times techniques are not on the money, but it's a matter of being a little off and knowing how to adjust. I feel this approach to drills helps me hard-wire that. I like to try and hard-wire a few things before getting myself in bad habits in live environments (but definitely live every training session if possible).

2. Improving Weaknesses - no offense, but I don't think there are very many people on this forum that think they (and definitely not their version of wc) have any weaknesses. So they don't improve. This especially holds true with the close range or earth range of combat. The ability to recover when out of position is important in striking, but absolutely critical on the ground. The whole idea of putting yourself in an inferior position and working your way out is excellent training for better defenses and improving weaknesses. Unless of course you don't have any :rolleyes: Take off the funknacolored belt and train some grappling once in a while - even if just for fun. Catching someone in an armbar 2 seconds after you're out of position and they bulldoze you and take you down will make it all worth it, I promise.

Ultimate - thanks - cool catch history references.

[UNDERDOG 2]

You know I train under Grados. I did chisau with Vic. I kept hitting him. He couldn't touch me. And I don't even like chisau too much. His structure was wide open. Go back and look at the **** that went down between me and victor. He talked **** I said I'll come down to your school with one guy(and a video camera) and spar you and your students. He said no. The best part is he claims to be this master. He trains wrestling and boxing because his wingchun skills aren't good. And he uses that as an excuse to say that wingchun isn't enough. lol
Its enough for guys like boztepe and grados. To be honest I haven't seen anyone else near as good.
Phil redmond sucks too. As you know. The difference is though is he is respectful. Paralti is like a little punk.
Isn't it funny that they won't let you say your opinoin about the clips? I think it sucks.

Mortal 1

[Ultimatewingchun]

I have four witnesses to the 10 seconds or so of chi sao that is referred to who can tell you unequivocally that no such "hitting and hitting of my open structure and therefore I couldn't hit him" ever took place...and these same people will tell you that I was going VERY light with him for those brief moments - PURPOSELY - since this took place in my living room about three feet away from my television and other furniture - as opposed to the ballistic gear (they and many other people who know me can tell you) that I'm capable of getting into when I want to - whether it be chi sao, sparring, or fighting.

And the same four people can tell you that two days later (at the school) they also witnessed this person's comments first hand about how my arm blocks to his legs while he was trying to kick me (while wearing shin and knee pads) - resulted in lots of pain in his legs (and no landed kicks)...

As well as the fact that I have never claimed to be a wing chun "master"...

As well as the fact that there are a lot more than just four people who can tell you that not only are my wing chun skills very good - but the blend I've made of wing chun with boxing and wrestling is very effective...

And then there's the fact that my standing invitation for this man to meet me alone somewhere if he's so convinced that I can't fight - has never been accepted.

But more important than refuting mortal's false claims, dog....(since I'm sure he never thought his private message to you would ever be printed for all to see - and in this regard it's you who's the "punk")...

more important is the fact that it's time to out you once again as the often banned Dave Mead.

Let me explain something to you, fool. The fact that you keep changing your screen name is not sufficient to hide who you are, since each time you do it (ie.- UNDERDOG, Samson, Death Touch, etc.) - this alleged "new" person with only 1-2-3-10-15 posts ALWAYS seems to know JUST A LITTLE TOO MUCH about me, about Phil Redmond, about TWC...AND ALWAYS COMES AFTER ME OR PHIL OR WILLIAM CHEUNG....right away!!!

No warming up in the bullpen. Not at all. Just a few posts - and then, whammo...LOL.

Maybe it's time for some rehab? Psychotherapy? A talk with a priest? A new girlfriend? When was the last time you got laid?

Something.

[air]

I just want to add If someone trains thier accuracy and timing and strenghten there fingers to do bil gee(finger gouging)vs someone who just knows about it and think they can do just as well is just plain old foolish nothing more

[anerlich]

But whenever I see them I see all out commitment to the shoot with them driving the opponent backwards, but what do I know

The two main ways of performing a double leg takedown that I have been taught most definitely do NOT involve driving the guy backwards, like a rugbly tackle seeking to eat up yards would.

Both start with trying to get UNDER the guy with a penetration step, shoulder into his hip/waist and grabbing both legs behind the knees. Pushing him back makes this harder if not impossible.

Then either:

1. Lift him onto your shoulder, turn him while his feet are off the ground, keep his legs together and put him down with your shoulder in his gut, finishing in side control. What happens to his body is similar to what happens if you hip-toss him.

2. drive the front knee to the floor, step around him with the other leg and turn the corner driving him sideways or even back in the direction you came, controlling his legs as the same time, more or less passing his guard on your feet/knees.

Neither way do you try to drive the guy back - that makes it easier for him to pull guard or sprawl heavily. The proper execution allows you to "guide him to the ground rather than force him there", to use your terminology.

[Jason DeLucia]

Agree on high percentage and bread and butter work.

Another thing it's good to practice is to place yourself in trouble and work your way out. For example on this thread with the shoot examples, if you're going to try and "stick" a shooter with a knee/elbow, practice missing. See if you can still sprawl. Practice being late for the sprawl and getting a single caught. Can you still control space while being taken down? Position yourself for advantage when you hit the ground? Can you recover position on the ground with skills there? For all you straight wc enthusiasts, isn't a main concept of bil gee recovering your position when you lose it?
it's giving it to the person with the intention of losing it while redirecting it .yes .

[Jason DeLucia]

I am a big believer in this kind of training - since the unpredictability of the "real world" could quite conceivably result in finding yourself in a compromising situation/position/receiving end of a punch, kick, takedown, throw, etc...and I would much prefer to have had a reasonable amount of training for such contingencies before it may ever happen for real.
yes train the negative and build up foundation from worst case scenario out .

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jason,

thanks for your replies on this thread. -It's nice to see a well-known fighter here on the forum.......

I hope you'll check in once in a while and post some more in the future. You have the unique perspective of being (considered by many as) a rather traditional [Kung Fu] artist, yet also having experience in the higher levels of MMA competition.

Maybe some of your insights could help bridge the gap between the camps of the "traditionalists" and "modernists" on certain topics.

Regards,
-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jason,

would you be kind enough to say somethng about the differences between the preparation for your first UFC fight, and your most recent MMA fight? How has your experience modified the way in which you get ready to face a well-rounded opponent?

Thanks,
-Lawrence

[Jason DeLucia]

Jason,

would you be kind enough to say somethng about the differences between the preparation for your first UFC fight, and your most recent MMA fight? How has your experience modified the way in which you get ready to face a well-rounded opponent?

Thanks,
-Lawrence
i keep a generic condition regimen and add to it the strategy plan for the particular opponent in question .each add-on differs depending on type of event and opponent .

[Phil Redmond]

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil

[lawrenceofidaho]

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil
Or your conditioning?
(Sorry, Phil. -I had to butt in.......Hahahaha.) :)

-L

[Phil Redmond]

Or your conditioning?
(Sorry, Phil. -I had to butt in.......Hahahaha.) :)

-L
NP, that should have been my first question. :)
Phil

[Jason DeLucia]

Jason, which has contributed more to your success, cross training or your kungfu?
Phil
or my conditioning .has to be all of the above as parts of the same thing .conditioning is your number one hold .conditioning is how we assimilate technique .kata is the catalog of strategy .and each challenge provides the "crosstrain" method for that particular event .my master used to say a 175 lb praying mantis would be the most formidable opponent .but many events won't allow the most basic praying mantis strikes ,so you improvise for that event and that creates your crosstrain for that event .

[Phil Redmond]

or my conditioning .has to be all of the above as parts of the same thing .conditioning is your number one hold .conditioning is how we assimilate technique .kata is the catalog of strategy .and each challenge provides the "crosstrain" method for that particular event .my master used to say a 175 lb praying mantis would be the most formidable opponent .but many events won't allow the most basic praying mantis strikes ,so you improvise for that event and that creates your crosstrain for that event .
Thx, Jason, some traditional martial artists believe they can't fight in MMA events because they can't use their "deadly" techniques. I'm glad that you said that you can improvise your techniques for an event.
Phil

[Jam_master]

If this is Wing Chun's primary objective, then I suggest it fails miserably.

Where are all the dead bodies? Why were not the rooftops of HK covered with the corpses of the Choy Li Fut enemies?



Yes Your partly right! So let me add striking till submission, or knockout too! And by the way, there were serious casualties in those rooftop fights, just so you know. Aledegedly Bruce had a major incident, William Cheung, and quite a few others, where they seriously hurt someone, and they actually had to leave the country as a result of it.

It IS certainly possible to tweak WC for competitive success, but not in MMA without studying BJJ or some other grappling art as well.

Yes your right about that too, but then it wouldn't be totally wing chun now would it? Also, You can still use a lot of wing chun concepts that will work for any art, and be successful, but as far as using certain techniques specific to wing chun you can forget about it. You'll proably end up using less than half your techniques and/or trainning. For instance, if you have to use gloves, the wing chun practitioners most special attribute is his touch sensory perception which alows him or her to sense they're opponents every move during the contact stage of the fight. If this is hindered by having to use gloves then he's going to have a huge problem right there, and will more than likely have to adjust or rely on other attributes he's not specifically trrained for. Again, your dimenishing the art right there and tying the practicioners hands behind his back. You can forget about ever using your FULL arcenal in any competetive urina if your a wing chun practitioner.

[Jam_master]

If this was the only reason wing chun doesn't do well in MMA, then why do most of our guys usually get their @sses handed to them in K-1 / kickboxing competitions as well? (Exceptions such as Rick Spain and a handful of others non-withstanding.)

IMO, it has less to do with any competitive rule structure, and more to do with how most wing chun people train on a regular basis.

-Lawrence

I believe it's both. Those few other exeptions you mentioned Like Rick Spain, are the exception because of the kind of trainning and background they posses. The Man lived and trained in Cheungs school, and he also tested his gung fu in the street and in other dojo's throughout australia. The man is a wing chun street fighter first and foremost. I have yet to see or know anyone of that caliber in today's compititions or in most wing chun cirlces for that matter.

[anerlich]

The man is a wing chun street fighter first and foremost.

Actually, he spent a great deal of time in competition training as well. It's arguable he was a competitive MAist with an youthful attitude living in an environment which led to lots of violence outside the ring. I'm not sure he'd enjoy your description.

I've been his student for 16 years, I'm pretty sure I've got the better picture here.

And by the way, there were serious casualties in those rooftop fights, just so you know.

I've heard various versions from a number of senior HK WC people, just so that YOU know.

Aledegedly Bruce had a major incident, William Cheung, and quite a few others, where they seriously hurt someone, and they actually had to leave the country as a result of it.

There's lots of stories why both had to leave the country, but "allegedly" seriously hurting people was but a part thereof.

Yes Your partly right!

Sort of like you, huh?

[Jam_master]

Actually, he spent a great deal of time in competition training as well. It's arguable he was a competitive MAist with an youthful attitude living in an environment which led to lots of violence outside the ring. I'm not sure he'd enjoy your description.


I'm quite sure considering how in any compitition there are rules that everyone must adhere to, one must tweake their formal traditional training also, and therefore without exeption he had to train like anyone else, specifically for compition also. I believe that's a given.

ALso let me add to that competative fighting is not the same as fighting in street combat. There are some major differences. Competitive fighting was specifically designed to be longer (than your average street fight or combat situation) and safer for the sake of marketing and sponsorship. If anything it is limited whereas street combat has no limitations. Let me also say too, that in saying all this, I do not mean to diminish any fighter that's made their mark in the ring link Rick Spain in any way. I believe he has earned his name and reputation as both a competitive fighter and a street combatant. But in all honesty because it's all that really matters to me, I only respect the street portion of his reputation most of all, if in fact true.

As for the violence outside the ring that I described earlier about Rick Spain, that comes actually from his own bio on his website. It's his own description, not mine! He even goes on to say that he was reprimanded by Cheung not to pick fights with other schools anymore, after Cheung got numerous complaints. No more different than what Cheung had claimed to have done in his youth as well. Except that with cheung there are reliable supporters to substanciate his claims, such as rival students, actual movie footages, and newspaper articles that documented some of these events.

Of coarse, some if not all, can be taken as possible boastful self-promotion, or plausible truth. It wouldn't be a first. But none of us will ever know for sure unless an unbias second/third party that was there can support these claims. So in the meantime unless we were actually there too, all we can do is use words or phrases like "aledgedly", "claimed to have said", and "suposedly", etc. LOL

One thing for sure, it does gives us all something on these forums to BS about and occupy our time when we have nothing else to do at work or talk about. Like housewives that watch Jerry springer shows all day long. It's all just pittiful entertainment I must say. LOL