View Full Version : The Rattan Ring
08-16-2000, 06:00 PM
What books and videos are out that show how to use this? Is there any way I can encorporate it into my JKD training?
"Crosstraining is the key"
~Sifu Rick Tucci~
08-16-2000, 06:42 PM
Hi Randy William video show a short part of the ratten ring used...
By the way... the ring trained the Kwun sau9high tan low bong) and the gaan sau(high jom low gan sau)the huen sau.....is very good to train for used the two hands in the same times and keep the elbows in
08-16-2000, 06:50 PM
Interesting, I'll have to try that. Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
08-16-2000, 06:56 PM
i'm sure they good 4 something but unfortunately u can't practice continous forward force from the elbows . the only way to truely feel this is to train with a partner.again i'm not saying they haven't got some value but you will be training some bad habits,better you find someone can teach u good chi sao.
08-16-2000, 11:47 PM
Can training with the rattan ring cause permanent damage to your hands and arms?
08-17-2000, 02:00 AM
I don't said to trained chi sao with the ring...like you said chi sau is a sentivity drills that wrong to do that with the ring but you can train some principle with the ring like just rolling hands with the emphasis to keep elbow in but if your a beginner don't train with the ring,bad habit can be take... the ring is good for trained the two hands and same times like tan da or gwun sau ectttttttttttttt
08-17-2000, 07:41 AM
again i'm not disputing some people find value in training with the rings all i'm saying is that even in just plain rolling constant foward pressure from the elbows must be used
08-17-2000, 04:20 PM
Ving I agree with you /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifBy the way chi sao in the Wong shun Leung method put a lot of pressure forward I do some chi sao with a WSL
VT men...withthe bong sao his elbow is pointed toward my centerline Do you know what I mean?
08-17-2000, 05:19 PM
all teachers methods vary as you well know
the elbow 4 us moves from tan to a point where the upper arm & elbow would be coming straight out from the shoulder(ie upper arm 90 degrees from the chest)our reasoning for this is that going to his centre would mean our elbow is no longer travelling in a continuos foward motion(from tan to bong), it would be moving side ways(& foward)& therefor leave us vunerable to be taken that way.
like as to some of the replies i have already had to other posts, it is very hard to explain exactly what one means without actually demonstrating.
08-17-2000, 07:34 PM
That's interesting. Our bong is done with a 135 degree angle at the elbow, the elbow is slightly higher than the shoulder, and the wrist is on the centerline.
As for the ring, I agree that it can't be used in place of Chi Sao, but we do use it to teach the structure to new students to prepare them for Chi Sao. As far as Chi Sao being a sensitivity drill, we are taught to do Chi Sao in three ways. The first is very light to develop sensitivity. The second is very hard to develop structure. The third is medium pressure to develop both. Obviously the ring won't train any of these things, but in a discussion some time back someone posted (I believe it was Sihing73 if I remember correctly) a method of doing solo Chi Sao with a bicycle tube to create resistance to a constant forward pressure. Of course this won't train sensitivity, but it can be useful to work on structure when no one is available.
The Rattan Ring as a Knife Training Device
: James Keating
: As many of you know from my past articles I am a believer in training with the iron and rattan rings. These devices are mainly seen in the martial arts of Wing Chun and Choy Li Fut Kung Fu. As per my nature, I am always experimenting with alternative means to train, educate or benefit myself. Being trained in the ring methods from Kung Fu, it did not take me long to transfer the principles of the rings over to the knife. Since this evolutionary process occurred quite some time ago for me I have had plenty of time to assimilate and refine my findings. I'd like to share some of these findings with you about this fun way to play the knife.
: RESISTANCE WORK
: When ever one works with a ring it is taken for granted that there will be tension and line resistance throughout the training routine. Line resistance with the ring is isometric and beneficial to the body. It also represents the connected power of an adversary when in close quarter combat. With the ring you are literally fighting yourself in a highly stylized, drill form. Whatever reasons prompt you to play with the ring you will find it fun and challenging. With the ring , the knife is almost forced into performing at a higher level to avoid entanglement or cutting it's owner. (Always use training knives when practicing! ) keep the tension/pressure between your arms fairly constant when playing the ring. Balanced motion is one of the goals in ring work. As you get more accomplished you will find a Tai Chi like flow of energy beginning to occur during your workouts. Initially, don't try to do something too exacting in nature. Allow yourself to fool around with the ring awhile before setting your goals on a complex movement/resistance routine. Just relax and try rotations, figure eights or weaving, soon enough you'll get the idea and the rest is merely experimentation and repetition.
: Accuracy in knife fighting is important. Accuracy is achieved through control, both of the opponent and the self. Accuracy can be enhanced via a well planned thrusting exercise employing the ring(s). One of the things I suggest to those training with the ring methods is that they have several different sizes of rings to work with. The smaller ring can be challenging for two reasons: 1. The smaller ring makes everything tighter and faster. 2. Smaller rings can enhance accuracy up to 30% via a custom designed workout employing the thrusting methods of knife fighting only. The Filipino arts call this style of knife work "Sumkete" (Thrusting). This multi-size ring work is also great for training the live hand interaction with the knife. Since the two limbs are always moving at the same time, it trains people rapidly. Plus, as a solo developmental device, it's tops, no partner, no problem!
: With a hearty dose of creativity thrown in with your regular training, the ring will continue to have a place on the developmental side of personal edged advancement. For over-training purposes I will often use a kali stick in replacement of the knife or empty hand. This means that the accuracy and control that is required to work the ring with this longer weapon ultimately forces you (or challenges) you into performing at higher levels of personal best.
: One needs dexterity in many things, knife fighting being one of them. Doing things like the six part dexterity drill or the eight count advanced dexterity drill can offer a knifeman entertainment and advancement. Most blade experts do these exercise from stationary positions. A few knifemen will also add a little live hand interaction with the knife hand when they perform the dexterity drill. Very, very few players of sharpened steel have both
: movement (footwork) and live hand action in their personal training formats. An easy way to correct any gaps in your training is to practice the six or eight count (or what ever version you do) dexterity drill with a 16 inch ring. Roll the ring in an orbital fashion and move your feet. Begin your drill and notice the live hand. See how it works with the knife, but never interferes with it. Time your movements with the rolling of the ring and the tempo of your breathing, these are all in accord with the master teacher, the knife. Slowly go from ring/dexterity work to the hand exchange manipulations with the ring and knife. For you more advanced players try adding a silah, that coiled serpentine crouching stance only adds to the rolling feeling that the ring produces through the body. When done well, this training is effective and beautiful to behold. You undoubtedly will discover many other methods to use the ring in training. I believe that to be the ultimate goal of ring/knife training , discovery, particularly self discovery. That is the doorway to courage, wisdom and victory! Have fun working with the ring , it's just one of the "good" perks you get from training in the defensive use of edged weapons!!
08-19-2000, 08:04 AM
I beleive that Rene Ritchie has a book out on Yuen Kay San Wing Chun and describes some methods for utilizing the Rattan Ring.
Keep in mind that when one mentions Ring Training there are several variations. There are the brass rings which are designed to slip over your wrist and provide tension/weight while performing hand movements. Also there are ones that are slightly larger designed for gripping training. And of course the ones in Wing Chun which usually have an inside diameter of 12-14". Never really got to play with those as my system does not seem to incorporate them. maybe I can get Rene to show how to use them if we ever meet in person. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
08-19-2000, 08:06 AM
Yes, that was me that brought up the innner tube training. It is based on a drill developed by Jesse Glover for his students. You are correct that it will not train "sensitivity" but does help with structure when no partner is available.
Mmmm are you sure the person you are training with is from a Wong shun Leung system??
I study from a very Stong Wong Shun leung lineage and what you have mention with the Bong Sau sounds strange!
CAn you please tell me a bit more of how his tecnique is?
08-21-2000, 05:26 PM
i have seen bong used more ways than i care to remember & the way u described it is just one of the many.the 2 things that we would feel are the weaknesses here are that by raising the bong that high means u are using excessive shoulder strength with the technique(mind u it is a plausable tech. if u are 5'5 & facing an opponent who 7ft tall)
as to the wrist being in centre either your elbow is outside the line of your shouder wich makes it hard to have foward pressure from the elbow or u have far to much of an angle at the for arm wich could allow a stike to slip over it.
not meaning to over-ride your instructor but if u like try this & let me know how it goes.
bring the upper arm 90 degrees to the body & point the elbow staight towards your training partners shoulder, the forarm should be at a 45 degree angle foward & down with the palm of the hand open & facing your opponent so as to keep your force travelling foward towards your partner.
i have never had to explain this without being there in person so if it doesn't make sense please forgive me as bong is truely a hard tech. to explain correctly even when the student is right there with u.
would u mind telling me who your teachers are & what u think of my brief description of bong sau?
ps this is 4 a bong used in chi sau not di bong or any of the other variants.
08-22-2000, 04:20 PM
there is a problem with the weights on your arm. as you are actually lifting against gravity you are going against the idea of forward force.
08-22-2000, 04:41 PM
what are u dribbling about?
(just joking bud)
08-22-2000, 09:03 PM
i meant doing the form with the weights on your wrists.
08-22-2000, 10:43 PM
hey benny u boofhead we're talking about something completely diferent.
lil' old vts
08-23-2000, 09:25 AM
didnt someone put a thing on those rings you put on your arms while you do the form like the photo of yip man with them on.i just read the post and i got confused with the dude that was talking about the smaller rings. MY MISTAKE
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