View Full Version : Emin Boztepe vs William Cheung?
06-29-2000, 11:28 AM
I heard that Cheung gave a seminar in Germany and got into a fight and lost. Did he fight Emin B?
Je Lei Sifu
06-29-2000, 11:43 AM
Yes there was a fight between the two.
However, Sifu Cheung had turned away and then was attacked.
This is what I remembered, I could be wrong.
Je Lei Sifu.
06-29-2000, 11:54 AM
I brought up a thread about this exact topic a couple of months ago. I'm sure if you can find it, you will find some enlightening info about the "Cologne Incident." I myself didn't know much about the whole thing, but after the duration of the thread, there was some insightful and informative statements made.
It turns out that there was a video of the whole thing and it appeared that both participants were not performing well.
Yeah, I remember that. After a seminar, Sigung Cheung was jumped by the hothead Boztepe. In those days, the Leung Ting Lineage was scrambling to cover their booties and still claim a victory for their side.
06-29-2000, 03:55 PM
I remember the thread too - just after Christmas I think. The incident eventuated after Wlliam Cheung had issued a public challenge to any wing chun fighter out there to prove himself- saying that he (Cheung) ws the sole inheritor of the "correct" WC system and bagging the WTsun people.
I don't know or care anything about either group but really - if you're going to issue worldwide challenges like that, you shouldn't be too surprised if someone suddenly decides to take you up on your offer.
06-29-2000, 06:30 PM
I prefer to remain outside of politics but at the time of this incident I was a member of Leung Tings camp. One of my Sihings was part of the group which took place in this incident. I have since trained with some from William Cheungs group. Having said this I was privileged to hear both sides of the story. I have copies of the articles which appeared in IKF giving both sides of the story and also the follow up involving Andrew Draheim and Victor Parlati in New York.
Here is the short story:
During a seminar in New York City Leung Ting asked for a volunter from the audience to demonstrate some type of palm technique. A member of the audience who was of William Chuengs lineage, and wearing one of his T-Shirts stepped up. During the "demonstration" this person managed to strike Leung Ting once. William Cheung had no knowledge of this incident until after it happened and he reprimmaned the students involved.
A short time later William Cheung was invited to do a seminar in Germany. When he arrived for the seminar there were members of the news media there. He did a photo shoot prior to the start of the seminar. During the seminar he was approached by Emin who wanted to fight. Long Story short Emin had a group of people and video and still photography equipment. Emin made reference to some article in which William Cheung had made statements concerning the superiority of his version of Wing Chun and stated he would fight anyone anytime to prove it. The fight ensued and lasted approximate 25-30 seconds. Both people went to the ground.
Emin got up and left along with his group of people. Wiliam Cheung completed the seminar but cancelled the second day. Neither party was injured and despite claims made by both sides there was no "obvious" victor. I have had the opportunity to view both the "edited" and "unedited" versions of the video and they are, IMO, inconclusive.
A short time after this incident Victor Parliti, a student of William Cheungs, visited one of Leung Tings instructors in New York, Andrew Draheim and a repeat occurred. Again with both sides claiming victory.
Since then things have coold off a bit. Both sides made statements and challenges but nothing ever came of it. This incident was one of the reasons which led me to leave Leung Tings organization as I viewed it as a disgrace all the way around.
If anyone is interested I have copies of letters sent by both parties as well as the articles I mentioned. Email me at:
and I will be glad to send you a copy.
The bottome line is that the incident proved nothing nor accomplished anything. Neither side was able to achieve a sure victory. William Chueng at the time of this incident was in his late 40's or may have even already hit 50. Emin was in his early 30's maybe late 20s' and had trained for almost a year getting in shape for this event.
I do not wish to discuss this incident publicly any further, it was a regrettable thing to have happen. Should you wish to discuss it further please contact me off list.
06-29-2000, 09:00 PM
It was from what I have heard a pretty sorry fight, between two pretty sorry fighters. The most ironic thing is that the fight went to the ground and that if just one of them knew how to fight on the ground it would have been over in seconds, oh well. I think the worst part was reading the interviews from the two fighters afterwards and there excuses, William Chueng may have had a pretty poor excuse but come on the man was at least fifty at the time so it does seem to me to be a little unfair from the start. Anyways, IMHO all they managed to do was make Wing Chun look really bad, both as masters in the system and as fighters.-ED
"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist
06-29-2000, 09:42 PM
It's ironic the fight hit the ground eh???
06-30-2000, 05:58 AM
Both fighters won because neither man was seriously hurt physically
Both fighters lost because each man acted as if the other was the loser afterwards.
06-30-2000, 08:39 AM
what's with the philisophical posts all of a sudden?
Any coward can fight a battle when he's sure of winning.
06-30-2000, 10:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GinSueDog:
[B]It was from what I have heard a pretty sorry fight, between two pretty sorry fighters.
Not a scratch on any of the four "masters".
Hehehehe......Where was Don King?
Sihing73- thanks for the dose of personal experience.
06-30-2000, 11:24 AM
here we go again...
Its all fun and games til someone loses an eye. Then its just fun.
06-30-2000, 12:19 PM
I have that fight somewhere in my video collection. Basically Boztepe simply mauled, grounded and pounded an older, weaker and smaller individual. It was a cowardly challenge on the part of Boztepe. And it was a disgrace for Wing Chun Gung fu. Being a fight between two wing chun experts there was very little expertise shown by any of it, other than a leg sweep and a pretty inefficient ground & pound by Boztepe. I saw more interesting brawls in high school. Boztepe was very clearly the winner though. He was basically on top of Cheung pounding away until Cheung's group finally pulled him off.
06-30-2000, 12:27 PM
Someone here is yanking your chain.
I actually HAVE the fight on videotape, it is part of a Leung Ting video series.
A certain someone above said:"I have had the opportunity to view both the "edited" and "unedited" versions of the video and they are, IMO, inconclusive. "
He was either very very very.......very very tired when he watched that fight or he is blind and was relying on the sound.
In the video tape Emin attacks Will C., Will C. falls on his butt and Emin lands on top of him.
Will C. demonstrates a complete lack of groudfighting knowledge by laying there stupified while Emin pounds his head into the floor with elbows.
Emin also knows nothing about groundfighting so he just sort of lays there and pounds Will C.
I came to two conclusions from watching the fight.
A) Anyone with a few years knowledge of any type of groundfighting would have torn both Emin AND Will C. limb to limb. Both of them demonstrate a complete lack of kowledge of ground positioning and ability. Emin didn't try and get a side control position or a full mount (a ground fighter would have put him in guard and broke his arms with armbars or choked him out with the triangle). Will C. just layed their like a dead fish and didn't even attempt a reversal, guard position, half guard, escape...etcet (a ground fighter would have just mounted Will C. and probably broken his arms, chocked him out, or just pound on him from a superior postition).
It sort of makes me laugh at watching two hot heads with really big ego's fight and demonstrate a COMPLETE lack of knowledge of groundfighting.
As you can tell I am neither Leung Ting or Will Cheung lineage Wing Chun, in fact I am not Yip Man lineage at all so I have no problem in pointing out the lack of knowledge of combat in that range of fighting that Wing Chun people have.
I have found for myself, that BJJ covers that lack of knowledge quite nicely and fits in well with my Wing Chun Kung Fu.
You Kung Fu guys out there that don't think you need ground fighting knowledge take this story to heart before you end up embarassed like poor Will Cheung.
Even the best of Kung Fu slippers can cause you to fall on a training floor, and even the masters can be surprised!!!!!
ps: I think A covers it all so I'm not going to post B
[This message has been edited by jojitsu27 (edited 07-01-2000).]
06-30-2000, 03:42 PM
I tottaly agree with jojutsu on this one, u know what really made me laugh was when i went to a will cheung seminar a while after this incident in cyprus he was teaching us the hidden ground fighting techniques of wing chungs advanced levels.
Anyhow dont judge kung fu by what wing chun is like.
It like looking at the beach and saying oh the pacific or atlantic is tiny ....
Wing chun is one of the much poorer styles of kung fu
06-30-2000, 04:35 PM
I originally shared your point of view, then I had the opportunity to review an unedited copy of the tape. It does indeed look like Emin "pounds" WC however, after loking at all of the facts I would ask why WC was not injured, he did not even get anything more than a slight bruise if I recall correctly. Also, if you know Emin ask him about his arm /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I said the fight was inconclusive and I stand by that statement. Both sides have pointed out various things in the tapes to prove their side of the story and that they won. In my opinion, if I were able to so dominate my opponent, as Emins claims, he would be wearning quite a bit more evidence of that fact.
I do not wish to be drawn into a political mire so I will not say anymore. If you feel the fight proved your opinion then good for you. I wish you well.
BTW, the sound is terrible so I could hardly be relying on that to help me out /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I will admit to being tired, I am tired right now, having gone to see one of my former students play in a rock band late last night /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Still, tired or not the fight, IMO, was inclonclusive. NEITHER SIDE was able to prove superiority or victory. No one was injured and WC was able to complete the seminar, does'nt sound like much of a pounding to me. At the start of this I was actually proud of Emin and what he had done. I bought into the whole bull****. After having a chance to look a bit further I changed my opinion.
I saw a very bad clip of the 'fight'. But what surprises me even more is that neither one even used their Wing Chun the little bit of time that they were on their feet. Granted, they obviously had no clue what to do on the ground but they should have at least been using their style while they were standing up. Looks as if they didn't even try.
10-13-2001, 06:21 PM
does anybody know of a site that might have this clip posted online. thanx
10-13-2001, 06:58 PM
"You Kung Fu guys out there that don't think you need ground fighting knowledge take this story to heart before you end up embarassed like poor Will Cheung"
Nonsense. If you generalize about wing chun,
structure, stability and motion based on that
so called fight- you demonstrate your fundamental
ignorance of good wing chun. In any serious investigation of a subject you first have to know something about sampling.The continuum of the wing chun world is very diverse, bumpy and uneven and that event in germany, the (pre and post) challenges and the film(s) disgrace the wing chun world. I dont care to or intend to get into the Cheung/Leung rivalries of the past.It is a sideshow- in understanding the art.But the bjj pitch is tiresome and boring. There isnt and has not been good wing chun in Tulsa for jojutsu's comparison. :
10-13-2001, 11:57 PM
I'm surprised that no groundfighting techniques were executed because Emin supposedly came from a Turkish wrestling-style background.
As for "secret training" and any "secret techniques" given, Emin has said that those rumors and stuff were untrue -- he entered the challenge basically doing what he normally did back then.
10-14-2001, 11:10 AM
>He was either very very very.......very very tired when he watched that fight or he is blind and was relying on the sound<
Good call Sihing,I'm glad you don't take sides.
BTW,his arm works fine ;)
10-14-2001, 09:27 PM
I am sure his arm works well, I would hate to think he has continued on to become one of the most sought after trainers if he had any trouble with using one of his arms. Still, ask him if it hurt any after the incident ;).
I still say this whole affair was an embarrasment and accomplished nothing. It is sad that all these years later we still have those who would continue to keep members of both lineages apart by keeping this going. I feel, it is time to move on.
This incident reminds me of the Bruce Lee/Wong Jack Man(sp?) fight. Depending on who you talk to you will hear that each person thoroughly defeated the other one. Both sides claimed victory and many years later some still dredge it up to prove a point, or attempt to.
I really do try not to take sides. Firstly because I was not there. Secondly because I have or had ties to some of the people there from Leung Tings organization, Klaus Hennrich was present with Emin and he trained me in Germany. Thirdly because I personally have my own feelings about Emin whihc have nothing to do with his fighting ability so I am probably biased. Lastly because it still accomplished, IMHO, NOTHING!!!
BTW: I am still feeling kind of tired :D
10-15-2001, 02:55 AM
Actually Dave i don't really care who won the fight I'm just curious to have a peek!!! Again, can anybody here tell me where i can find the clip online?
10-15-2001, 08:18 AM
Yeah. Where can those of us who didn't see the "fight" go just to take a look at it? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
10-15-2001, 12:13 PM
Sorry but I have no information about where one may go online to view a clip of this incident. I used to have a copy along with some photos but they have grown legs and walked some time ago. I know you can view the "fight" on one of Leung Tings video tapes, I think it was Dynamic Wing Tsun, however, I believe that versions may be somewhat edited.
All in all you are not missing much. The entire affair lasted something like 30-45 seconds from initial attack to the ground and finishing.
If anyone knows where to view it online they have not said where.
10-16-2001, 01:13 AM
my friends that many talking baout one bad fight ... plz so many fine themes about wing chun and chi sao.... - just friendly tiger_1 (show to me non ordunary wingchunger im can show you a progres and good road) ;)
It's a very bad quality.
10-22-2001, 04:23 AM
Just a correction to S73's statements re Draheim/Parlati.
The fight was not between Andrew Draheim and Victor Parlati, but Andrew Draheim and Keith Mazza. The fight did not happen a short time after the Cologne incident (1986), but about ten years later.
Draheim posted many long, provocative tracts ridiculing Cheung and TWC on rec.m-a. A flame war of epic proportions ensued. Draheim was extremely provocative, posting pictures of the Cheung/Boztepe fight/fiasco on his website, even to the point of moving his training premises into the same building as TWC instructor Victor Parlati. Parlati claimed to have met Draheim over a beer to try and sort the whole thing out, and begged off a challenge match due to having undergone recent surgery. While Draheim was flaming and being flamed in return by a cast of 1000s including myself, he accepted a challenge from Keith Mazza. Parlati and some other guy turned up at Draheim's premises to say they wanted to fight there and then, Draheim said he only wanted to fight Mazza, after which Mazza was brought into the room and a "fight" commenced. Both sides claimed victory, but only Draheim went to the emergency room afterwards. Both sued each other, both withdrew charges and both were evicted from their building by an annoyed landlord.
While the conduct of Cheung, Boztepe, Draheim, Parlati and Mazza in these ignominious incidents brands each as a arrogant, immature moron, Draheim deserves special executive moron status for his prodigous and unequalled output of self delusional bull**** on rec.m-a. He was an embarassment to his seniors and to WC in general.
While the statements of the BJJ and MMA crowds have to be taken with a grain of salt, at least their ascendency has made it more difficult to make insulting or grandious statements about MA styles without there being a real possibility of people being prepared to take the claimant up on it.
10-22-2001, 10:44 AM
"Draheim deserves special executive moron status for his prodigous and unequalled output of self delusional bull**** on rec.m-a."
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