Lai Ng Sam revisited

[South Paw]

Quote by Eric Ling in the topic "Lai Ng Sam"
Hi South Paw,

I am not a Hungga man. But I do have many friends into Hungga.

And yes, in SE Asia, there is this distinction of old and new style Hungga.

And the distinction is more than just surface deep according to them. It extends into emphasis of training methods, forms and applications.

I guess most of what is exported to the West is from Hong Kong and even China.

Let's us not forget that there are huge Cantonese population in many parts of SE Asia. Malaysia and Singapore for instance, the Cantonese are a very well-represented dialect group.

You can find "Kong Chow Hui Kun" in almost every SE Asia countries. You will be surprised by the kind of Hungga taught in these "hui kun".

Taiwan, I was told, do another form of Hungga that is unique. Same source but totally different flavors.

Thank you.

Hello Eric,

I totally agree with you.

Recently a HG brother directed me to the Southern Kung Fu Forum of Wu Lin Tien Ti (http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.cgi?board=southern) to see this quote:

......We are human beings and have the tendency to be special, claiming to be the world leading authority. The last ten years this did happen in Hung Kuen, but also in many other styles. Our branch – the Tit Kiu Sam branch – might be an incorrect link because our Tit Sin Kuen come from Tit Kiu Sam, while our Hung Kuen is Wong Fei Hung Kuen. It is not clear from which twig we are from.....

Maybe this post by Evert Van Der Meulen (Nataraya) of Oct 13th, 2004, 07:29 am on Southern Kung Fu Forum of Wu Lin Tien Ti (Topic: Hung Gar), explains just what I mean with the former closed topic on GM Lai Ng Sam (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=908).

And it is a fact that all Tit Sin Kuen (Iron Wire Fist) comes from Tit Kiu Sam.

Regards,
KPE
www.hunggar.nl

[Eric Ling]

Hi Sir,

Thank you for agreeing with me but kindly tell me what exactly, in my statement, are you agreeing to?

You went on to quote Nataraya in Wu Lin, the forum I started, and then pointed to a thread in this forum.

Pardon me for being slow here but what is the reference all about?

As I recall, my involvement was about you questioning the “validity” of Evert’s TSK.
This is no problem.

And equally it should not be any problem to ask to see your rendition of this form. Martin Watts and I made that request and hopefully you’ll be kind enough to indulge.

As a matter of fact, many of my kung fu colleagues here in SE Asia are waiting eagerly for this event.

Most of them Hungga but not linked in any way to WFH or TKS lines; “village” Hungga, if you will.

And Sir, if you have been reading in my Wu Lin forum , you must have come across a couple of these folks.

So we are all waiting to see your “as it should be” version.

Xie Xie

Tien Xia Wu Lin Be Si I Jia

[fiercest tiger]

LOL :eek: :o

FT

[South Paw]

Thank you for agreeing with me but kindly tell me what exactly, in my statement, are you agreeing to?

Hello Eric,

I totally agree with most of your statement. To me this is common knowledge....
And I'm happy for you that you have many friends in Hungga.

My "rendition" of the form TSK is just another subject. I'm sorry, but I have to dissapoint your kung fu colleagues in SE Asia.

Regards,
KPE
www.hunggar.nl

[AhBenG]

Eric, just wondering do you know what 'type' of hung gar is played in the kong chow wui kwoon in SG and KL? Are you saying they are very different? Or just how it is played in Taiwan? Are you from kong chow?

[Eric Ling]

Hi AhBenG,

Nice name, fellow kiasu Singaporean?

No, not with KC.

Try browsing http://wulin.proboard31.com
to check out Hungga scene in Singapore/Malyasia.

More of a Hockien/HockChew PeiHo, Tai Chor and SiaoLim player myself.

Did a few years AngKoon with a classmate's grandfather many many years ago. Don't have much info about his line except that I do Angkoon forms differently from other Angkoons.

I start forms with a right backfist smash into left palm, pull back and then go into a Ming salute..........

Kam Sia.

[essence]

Hi Ah Beng.

I would like to know if you are from Kong Chow Wui Kwoon in Singapore? All I'm willing to say at this moment is that Kong Chow's Hung Gar has evolved very differently from other forms of Hung Gar, especially those taught to the West as that is mainly Hung Gar from Hong Kong.

The pugilistic climate was very different in Singapore than it was in Hong Kong when GM Lam Sai Wing passed away, as such, this influenced the way Hung Gar evolved in the 2 countries. Having experienced both sides, I can safely say, they are Hung in flavour, but different tastes different, if you understand.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[AhBenG]

Hi Ah Beng.

I would like to know if you are from Kong Chow Wui Kwoon in Singapore? All I'm willing to say at this moment is that Kong Chow's Hung Gar has evolved very differently from other forms of Hung Gar, especially those taught to the West as that is mainly Hung Gar from Hong Kong.

The pugilistic climate was very different in Singapore than it was in Hong Kong when GM Lam Sai Wing passed away, as such, this influenced the way Hung Gar evolved in the 2 countries. Having experienced both sides, I can safely say, they are Hung in flavour, but different tastes different, if you understand.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

Tze Hou Qian Bei,

no i am not from Kong Chow Wui Kwoon in SG...are you? or was previously? You must be quite familiar to their 'flavour' of HG I do have an interest in their hung gar (and hung gar in SG as a whole). The hung gar we see in the world today is mainly western HG (from the US/euro areas, also because of commercialisation) ...which as you said came out of HK. Each student expresses what is taught to them differently, as always, but I'm guessing the hung gar in SG must be still from the GM LSW.

We do not hear much from malaysia/singaporean hung gar in the world, and they are both in close geographical proximity to southern china, hence i'm wondering about their HG

[essence]

Hi Ah Beng.

Could I ask, where are you from? Also, I am not any Qian Bei, I am only a young Hung Gar practitioner, but have experienced Hung Gar through a Hong Kong based line and also through Kong Chow's line.

I do not like to go into too much discussion regarding the differences and similarities, but I can say that Malaysian and Singapore's Hung Gar remains very similar. The core curriculum is much the same, with the Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen and Tit Sin Kuen comprising the pillars. There is a marked difference in the rest of the curriculum, and I want to leave it at that.

If you are in Malaysia, there is a very famous Hung Gar school in JB, which if it is close to you, I feel it is beneficial to check out. If you are in Singapore, then maybe pop into Kong Chow for a look see. You will notice the difference from other branches.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[Eric Ling]

Tze Hou Qian Bei,

no i am not from Kong Chow Wui Kwoon in SG...are you? or was previously? You must be quite familiar to their 'flavour' of HG I do have an interest in their hung gar (and hung gar in SG as a whole). The hung gar we see in the world today is mainly western HG (from the US/euro areas, also because of commercialisation) ...which as you said came out of HK. Each student expresses what is taught to them differently, as always, but I'm guessing the hung gar in SG must be still from the GM LSW.

We do not hear much from malaysia/singaporean hung gar in the world, and they are both in close geographical proximity to southern china, hence i'm wondering about their HG

Well Ah Beng,

If you are from Singapore and old enough, you might have heard of these :-

1. Hong Mon San - uncertain whether they're still operating. Last I heard they were in Chinatown area also, directly facing the sub-courts.

2. Chien Xin - in Geylang.

3. Lin Nam - also in Geylang.

4. Hung Quan Dao - this was taught in Punggol C C. Their Hung Quan is quite unlike the rest that I've seen.

5. Chan Kin Hwa Sifu - this Sifu was teaching Hung Gar/Pak Hok in Balestier Technical School way back when I was still in Sec School.

Well, like I mentioned, I am not a Hung Gar player per se. But watching these various groups do their stuff, I sensed that they are "spiced" differently........

Another person you might want to check with about Hung Gar in Singapore, besides the KC group, is GM Li Kam Yuen. He is the current chief of the Chou Jia group in Singapore.

Also the son of the late famed Li Kwan. GM Li Kam Yuen is very well-versed in the histories of Cantonese MA in Singapore.

[AhBenG]

wow thanks for the comprehensive list Eric.

Are those first few Hong Mon San/Chien xin/Lin Nam all come out from KC? since KC is such a big/old association i'm guessnig a lot of schools come from there? Do you know anything about KC's lineage back to Wong Fei Hung/others?

essence, I am from Melbourne, but i worked in singapore at the start of the year and talked to some people and checked out some sites there :)

Yourself? May I ask why you do not like to go into the differences between the HG styles? Can PM me if you feel more comfortable, if not i totally understand. May i ask how you have experienced HG through a Hong Kong line and also KC based line? Really interested in this topic, especially in SE Asian HG as it's not very well-known and ''famous'' in the region (compared to HK/western)

[hasayfu]

Hi Guys,

Selamat Datang. I've been posting on the WuLin boards trying to get any info for Hung Gar (any variation) in JB. Find out you guys are all on KFO now! I'll be in JB Malaysia at the end of July beginning of August. Any pointers will be appreciated.

Not sure if I will be making the trip to Sg this time. Got to spend time with family.

Might go to Malacca and KL but not sure at this point.

Kasih.

[Eric Ling]

Hi Ah Beng,

So you did acquire “bengness” on Singapore soil. Pick up any “Ah Lian”?

Try hanging out at Bugis Junction’s McDonalds.

Okay “Kong Chow Hui Kwoon” is not a kung fu institution per se. It’s more a clan association. Besides Kung Fu, they also do opera, Chinese orchestra music, etc etc….

So to say that many Hungga came out of KCHK is not wrong. The various Sifus could be members there.

For the Hungga training conducted there, I cannot really comment because so far, I have only seen them in public demonstrations.

However, this I do know; back about 5 years ago they had a Sifu who is a Hainanese. So why is this worth mentioning? KCHK is predominantly a “Cantonese” clan association. So to have a Hainanese Kung Fu Sifu teaching there is ………..

So did the rest of the Hungga Kwoons spin off from KCHK, frankly I do not know.

Beng, you should really go pay GM Li a visit in his Chou Jia HQ which is right behind KCHK building in People’s Park area.

GM Li is a super nice person and ready to talk Kung Fu to anyone interested.

HaSayFu, I am not participating in Wu Lin forum any longer.

Email me at white888crane@yahoo.com if you are keen in talking Kung Fu with the founding members of Wu Lin.

Thanks.

[AhBenG]

yes i hung at bugis mcdonalds a lot hahaha, whole of bugis is good actually ;)

>However, this I do know; back about 5 years ago they had a Sifu who is a >Hainanese. So why is this worth mentioning? KCHK is predominantly >a “Cantonese” clan association. So to have a Hainanese Kung Fu Sifu teaching >there is ………..

is this sifu still teaching? was he taught by KC sifu? I know they have a lot of different teaches/sifu's in there, very big association

Next time i go i'll pay a visit to GM Li. What is the Choy Jia HQ called? old small shophouse or building? That whole area a lot of shophouse/association/clan HQ's.

[hasayfu]

Hi Eric and AhBenG,

Thanks for the info. I'll email you eric. Is the Chou Jia Association Teochew? My wife is teochew. Not that it means anything but she is my universal translater.

AhBenG, are you currently in Singapore? Do you practice Hung Gar Kuen?

Maybe I'll have to make plans to be in Singapore for a day.

Kasih.

[essence]

Ah Beng,

Sorry for the late reply. I experienced Hung Gar through the GM Chan Hon Chung's line in Australia. In Singapore, I learn Hung Gar from Kong Chow.

Indeed, what Eric said is correct. KC is not a martial art school. It is an association for Cantonese people. However, as this is an old association, and a big one at that, many masters of different styles who passed through Singapore have had contact with KC in one way or another. Masters of Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut were the most prominent and conducted classes in KC.

KC's Hung Gar comes from GM Sung Siu Poh, GM Lam Sai Wing's disciple, Lin Nam, from GM Sung Chiu Yean.

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[AhBenG]

hasayfu, no I'm not in SG at the moment, just worked there at the start of the year and checked out some sites (including KC)....

thanks for the reply essence,
yes many many master must have passed through KC as you said, the walls are lined with many masters of many different styles (Sung Chiu Yin included)...are you singaporean and do you go back a lot? Is the current HG instuctor in KC a student of Sung Chiu Yin's? dai ngee ngau/tan chun heng ring any bells?

[essence]

Ahbeng,

The current Sifu there is 2 generations down from GM Sung Siu Poh. You will find more of GM Sung Chiu Yin's lineage in Lin Nam. The elders in KC always sit in during the training sessions and offer pointers, very much like the atmosphere of the schools of days gone by.

I am Singaporean and I go back there once, maybe twice a year. What is your nationality?

Warmest regards,
Tze Hou

[AhBenG]

Thanks for your responses essence, much appreciated, I am Malaysian, living in Australia, and worked in SG haha

[Eric Ling]

Hi all

Just wondering how come no one is talking about "Chien Xin" or "Sword Heart" which I think is still operating in Geylang area.

They published a couple of books on Hung Gar sometime back and I think you can still find them in Bras Brasah Complex.

Don't know much about them except that they seem to be independent of KC - might be wrong here.

Anyway, Jou Chia HQ can be found on the rooftop of the building facing the wet market behind KC's row of shop houses.

Cannot miss them - big purple flags to attract attention.

Some of you might want to hunt down a couple of books published by the "National Pugilistics Association".

This is the old name for what is now known as "National Wushu Association".

One of the books lists all the CKF Masters who were active in Singapore.

The other talks about all the Pugilistics Assocaitions and Clubs in Singapore.

There was a time that all schools/instructors and even trainess need to be registered by MACU (Martial Arts Control Unit) of the Singapore Police.

You can find much info in those 2 books.

Thanks.

[AhBenG]

essence, you seem to know KC and their HG quite well, do you train with them often (when you go back to SG?) and how logn have you been there?

Next time i go i'll definitely check out one of their training sessions, although not sure how much they'll appreciate a foreigner watching them!

Eric: thanks the name sof those books. Definitely hunt them down sometime. Do you know the names of the books? And are they available in the Bras Brasah complex also? I found it quite difficult finding non taichi/wushu books there, got lost in the amount of them and couldn't find any hung gar books!

[essence]

AhBeng,

I have not been training there for very long, over the last summer holidays only. The folks at Kong Chow are very friendly and will talk to people whom they feel they can trust and show genuine enthusiasm for the art.

Reason I know a little more regarding Kong Chow is that the people there actively dissect their style and analyse/compare with my other branch's style. They too know that traditional arts are dying in South East Asia and are willing to teach the art to whoever is willing to learn. First question I was asked when I passed the doors, "Are you Cantonese?" Perhaps a serious question in the past, but considering the state of the arts at the moment, they are willing to pass it on to a Hokkien.

Regards,
Tze Hou

[AhBenG]

Ah I see. Yeah as in this day and age they 'must' be willing to pass it on to other Chiense backgrounds, they must have some 'senior' members not all cantonese. I'm going back to visit for a month during june, and probably a few months at tne end of year. Just wondering when their hung gar and lion dance training sessions are held? Did you participate in any lion dance ?

[essence]

I have little training in lion dance as that is not my area of interest. I am not too sure regarding their lion dance schedules as well, but they train on Fridays. Let me know when you're going back for certain, I might not be back in June, but will definitely be back in November.

Regards,
Tze Hou

[AhBenG]

Are you there from November to January? Very impressed that they allow 'foreigners' to parcitipate, I thought they'd be more conservative (as a lot of Singaporeans are about their martial art/training as i found). Do you have any pictures to share?

[essence]

Yes I should be there end Nov till late Feb. I'm sure you will be welcomed to come have a look see. Unfortunately, I do not have any pictures.

Regards,
Tze Hou