Reasons that people create new systems. Example: Jeet Kune Do

[fgxpanzerz]

I firmly believe people try to create "new" and "better" systems because they can't handle the rigors of an orthodox system. Bruce Lee was no different. What does everyone else think?

[yenhoi]

"What do you think..."

I think you should go troll on the JKD forum.

Seriously:

Bruce Lee moved from his native home to another country and never finished his "original" system.
He did this at a time when CMA's were still very new to America. He started teaching, his own 'style' developed.

Look close enough and find the roots of wing chun in jkd, blah blah blah - JKD as it ended up when Bruce died was nearly striped of all interal aspects of Wing Chun.

Just to use your example.

Most new 'styles' are created because the 'founders' want to make money. I dout any of it really has to do with demanding training.

Look at some 'traditional' CMA schools and you will find a great many that are lacking in the vigor dept.

strike!

[anerlich]

Most of the "orthodox" systems taught today resulted from someone further back trying to develop "new" and "better" systems from those that were around in their day. Choy Li Fut is one such system, there are many others.

[anerlich]

Actually, some accounts of the origins of wing Chun having it developed as a distillation of the systems taught before after the Manchus burned down the Shaolin Temple - distilled so it could produce skilled fighters in a much shorter time than those systems which preceded it.

So arguably Wing Chun and its founders are of the same ilk as those systems and practitioners you seem keen to bag.

[yenhoi]

Alright!

:D :p :o :rolleyes: :eek:

strike!

[Shadowboxer]

Are you saying the founders of WC couldn't handle the rigors of training in Shaolin Kung Fu?

[edward]

he had to create a new system... if you don't complete the art, what are you suppose to do... you have to fill in the gaps with your own info....

[anerlich]

I would hope it was obvious I wasn't saying that. Jeez.

I was saying that if you take a long view of MA history, innovation and eclecticism abound.

[Steven T. Richards]

Martial Arts Anthropology has identified the following cyclical historical and cultural phases to martial arts development:

Monist - Eclectic (Post-Modernity) - Integrative (Syncretistic) - Neo-Monist.

Ref:

'From Post Modernism to Dialectical Syncretism: understanding the anthropology and cultural evolution of martial arts systems'.

Richards S.T. (1998)

Paper presentation to the: Society of Martial Arts
First International Conference and Graduation;
Manchester Metropolitan University, Sports and Exercise Science Faculty (UK)

A very shortened version of the paper published in:

Proceedings of the 1st International Conference on Martial Arts (1998) Edited by Professor David Collins and Dr Eugene de Silva.

ISBN 0 953333701

[joy chaudhuri]

Cultural anthropology (and "history") is far from a rigorous discipline... and too far to categorize all martial systems yet.. Many martial systems were not even known to outsiders till relatively recently.

[joy chaudhuri]

Again, lots of JKD eclecticisms in some posts. Lord Bruce did not go much beyond sil lim tao
and chi sao at that stage... hence had to import
other things in this country(US). This is understandable but not necessary if good wing chun instruction is available.I have been in wing chun a long time and have had no need to graft other things in order to handle folks from other styles.But if good wing chun instruction is not available I see no problem with folks importing things---just call it JKD or some such acronym.
Wing chun is wing chun-a rose is a rose is a rose.

[Kung Lek]

The founders of Wing Chun devised the system to equip and army with skill in teh time required to do so at a very fundamental level.

Since that time, Wing Chun has been built on and more of the old ways have been incorporated which have brought it into the realm of a larger style altogether.

So, to theoriginal post, I believe that many "new" styles are built to fit in the various frameworks that they are used in.

many new styles conform to rules as laid out by the associations and federations that govern them and are only limited by those Frameworks.

Sil Lum Kung Fu is within a very large framework and thus one can never in their own lifetime learn all there is to learn about Sil Lum Kung Fu.

JKD isn't even a style, it is a concept. Bruce lee taught what he did know from his formal lessons to give his JKD core group a foundation. Those who already had a martial foundation he gave the concept too.

It is not a dificullt concept to grasp after all. It si essentially a Taoist idea of being natural in all things you do, but more specifically related to your way of fighting when the need arises. Since then people have done their damdest to over mystify beyond the original simplicity that was intended. The same could be said of Wing Chun.

It's the gaining of the strong foundation that is the most difficult part of any training regimen. If your foundation is weak, then your entire practice is weak. That's all there is to it.
The Strong foundation is the things like muscular strength, endurance, will, spirit, tendon strength, speed, blood flow, proper breathing, proper body alignment. Getting all that correct can take a few years. Collecting a few forms can be done in months but usiong them effectively will not happen without the foundation.

This is an inherent problem with many martial arts schools, so many people want the head of gold that they practice with feet of clay.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Rolling_Hand]

Bruce Lee once offered to buy an apartment for Yip Man in order to exchange his WCK lessons, but the grandmaster Yip rejected Bruce for an unknown reason. That's why Bruce wanted to creat the art of JKD.

[anerlich]

Kung Lek,

you make excellent points.

Rolling Hand,

So Bruce Lee created JKD because Yip Man rejected his offer a place to live in exchange for lessons? That's one of the longest bows I've seen drawn in quite a while.

[El_CLap]

Bruce Lee couldn't handle the 'rigors' of traditional Wing Chun? Please. That guy worked out more and harder than anybody I know. Nobody makes up their own stuff anymore. It's all the same stuff just packaged differently. Bruce Lee didn't make anything up for JKD. It's all in the way the body moves. You can only hit so many ways.

[yenhoi]

(great points kung lek)

"Lord Bruce" never claimed to be 'creating' anything new - he also specifically denounced the NAME of JKD.

strike!

[Rolling_Hand]

It's a well known fact... Bruce Lee wanted to buy Yip Man an apartment in Hong Kong in exchange for WCK lessons. According to Yip Chun, his father Yip Man himself had paid over 300 gold coins ( one could buy two houses for that price ) to his WCK Sifu Chan Wah Shun in exchange for lessons as well. It's not a joke!!!

[joy chaudhuri]

El Clap sez:"Bruce Lee couldn't handle the 'rigors' of traditional Wing Chun? Please. That guy worked out more and harder than anybody I know. Nobody makes up their own stuff anymore."
-----------------------------------------------
People make up things all the time sometimes knowingly sometimes in ignorance. Sure BL worked hard but his wing chun training was arrested so he worked hard on other things--trying to integrate them. he showed some but still limited understanding of wing chun. Just look at his finger formation to see his not understandung biu jee. Just look at his JKD dummy work- quite different from good wing chun dummy work
----------------------------------------------- Re Kung Lek's point"Since that time, Wing Chun has been built on and more of the old ways have been incorporated which have brought it into the realm of a larger style altogether"
----------------------------
Much truth. But wing chun adapted "old ways" to its
own structural requirements and so in learning the details of good wing chun a standard siu lum background is not enough. Over time as you point out it is a larger style altogether. Thus the requirements of the wing chun po pai jeung are quite different from the similar looking palms of hung kuen- another southern system.

[EmptyCup]

Rolling Hand -

it wasn't even for lessons. The apartment was for just dummy photos!!! Heck, if he were alive today I'd teach him the dummy myself for a quarter of the price :D

[anerlich]

I never said the apartment episode didn't happen.

But I strongly doubt that a failed real estate deal was BL's major impetus to start a new approach to MA, or was even a significant factor in the decision.

[whippinghand]

And all you'd have to do is stand there...

[Steven T. Richards]

Yuan,

That's why such a discipline is needed. There is far too much incestuous nonsense in TCMA. Any academic discipline needs time to develop. I'd put Donn F Draegger amd maybe R.W.Smith amongst the pioneers of martial arts anthropology. However flawed it is better than the political desication and cultish nonsense that passes for truth in many TCMA circles.

[joy chaudhuri]

If a martial art has good teachers and practitioners it is better(IMO) to go into that world,
leaving the dead ones to the chi chat of anthropologists and their under-developed discipline(s). They have no reliable method, a cacaphony of opinions, little quality control
and volumes of superficial publications that no
one pays attention to outside of their field
and often not by themselves. Draeger and Smith did good work for their times. They are hardly relevant to many arts that they did not know about. Even on taichi few good ones pay attention to Smith anymore. He has some good opinions and is on sounder ground when he draws on his early wrestling/judo background. His kung fu knowledge is mostly Taiwan based. Zilch from PRC and little from HK and none from wing chun.
That does not mean there isnt nonsense in discusiions of TCMA. Not an easy journey to separate the
chaff from the wheat.

[Steven T. Richards]

You've every right to your opinion and to express it. After all, such 'beliefs' are part of anthropology/psychological research. Some of us within martial arts anthropology are also long-term time served martial artists at the very heart of TCMA. Despite my own position as a disciple and nominated co-successor to a Chinese Hakka Grandmaster, I (and he) have absolutely no difficulty in working towards the objective study of martial arts. Bigotry is a sad fact of TCMA in a large number of people (not all by any means).
Academic study as an oponnent of fundamentalist tendencies, is bound to draw a ceratin kind of flack from people with only a subjective stall to set out. 'Book burners' and there ilk are to be found everywhere. So be it, it's a BIG martial arts world with room enough for all.

[joy chaudhuri]

I am not a book burner. Just careful about reading good books. Very few on wing chun.Wong chun literature is
full of junk. Yip Man had the right idea- didnt write much-just did wing chun.