Tai chi question

[Tom Christy]

Hello all from the FNG.

The other night I had the opportunity to talk with a friend of mine who practices Chen tai chi. I noticed that in the corner of the workout area there was a wing chun-style dummy and asked him about it. He told me that the dummy was used in tai chi (which I had never heard before) and that in fact wing chun had borrowed it from tai chi (which I also had never heard before).

Can any of the experienced tai chi people here comment on the accuracy of this? Is the use of the dummy something that is common (or at least heard of) in tai chi circles?

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

Regards,

Tom

[tug]

I would love to see some sloooooow dummy work!


BTW, what is the FNG?

[Tom Christy]

Yeah, the idea of tai chi dummy work struck me as a little strange. However, stranger things have happened.

"FNG" is an acronym for the "f-ing new guy". I've lurked here for years but only started posting a little while ago, so it seemed appropriate.

Tom

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Tom Christy
Hello all from the FNG.

The other night I had the opportunity to talk with a friend of mine who practices Chen tai chi. I noticed that in the corner of the workout area there was a wing chun-style dummy and asked him about it. He told me that the dummy was used in tai chi (which I had never heard before) and that in fact wing chun had borrowed it from tai chi (which I also had never heard before).

Can any of the experienced tai chi people here comment on the accuracy of this? Is the use of the dummy something that is common (or at least heard of) in tai chi circles?

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

Regards,

Tom

FNG= F-in New Guy?

Anyways before any comments, it might help us to know where this guy practices. Do they have a website?

[Tom Christy]

Not sure about a website, but the gentleman in question trained with the late Gene Chen of San Francisco. I met Mr. Chen years ago and know that my friend did study with him. As to whether or not the dummy comment was official or simply him giving me some BS, I have no clue.

Tom

[Mo Ling]

Hello Tom, I was a student of Gene Chen for a number of years also before he passed. It is likely I know or know something about your friend who trained with him as well. Mr. Chen did like to train and teach dummy practice. I assure you folks that it was anything but slow. I cannot say with any certainty that Chen Taijiquan dummy work was prior to Wing Chun useage, but I can say that apparatus like the wooden dummy have been used for training purposes as long as Chinese martial arts have been around. It is not a matter of who was the first one to officialy use it, it is a matter of who got creative with their personal training. Wing Chun has kind of publicized it, but that does not mean that others in different arts have never employed this basic idea (build a dummy to train combination or contact useage on one's own). Anyhow, your friends especially if they are from CO. may not remember me, but if they are part of the crew that visited CA. I probably remember them. Hope everyone is well. M www.taijigongfu.com

[SPJ]

Agreed.

Practice with Dummie or poles.

It is called Zhuang Gong.

One may practice moves with dummie with 2 upper hands, one low hand and one low leg. The pole is the head and body.

One may also practice hitting with poles covered with cushion.

Da Zhuang Da Dai.

Hitting poles and bags.

There can be one pole, 7 poles (7 star) and more poles in Plum Flower setting or Mei Hua Zhuang.

The famous one being Shaolin Mu Ren Zhuang.

One may walk around and hit pole one, 2, come back to 1 and than 3 on and on to practice maneuver and fight mutiple opponents.

Every school of CMA has Zhuang Gong.

[scholar]

T'ai Chi works with dummies all the time. It is called "Pushing Hands." They aren't made of wood, though!

:D

[SPJ]

LOL.

Cool.

:D

[Tom Christy]

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for all of your replies. I really wasn't sure that my friend wasn't just handing me a line, so I figured it would be best to ask.

Mo Ling, I'm sending you an email. I've got a few questions I'd like to ask, and perhaps we know some of the same folks.

Thanks again,

Tom

[Repulsive Monkey]

Got to be honest he IS handing you a line. Traditionally Taiji never used dummies.
Other Chinese Martial arts may of incorporated it but I'm sorry Taiji never used dummies in their training practice just other humans.

[No_Know]

Different groups might have targets to hit to condition and help in getting application. Now-a-days, the wing Chun dummy is an available tool. Although it came~ from Wing Chun, applications of techniques from a different system at least theoretically could be applied.

[Repulsive Monkey]

As I say if other arts use dummies then good on them. However Taiji certainly doesn't/hasn't used dummies for conditioning.

If the originators friend claims that dummies are a Taiji tool, then I severely doubt his friend is learning legit Taiji.

[imperialtaichi]

[QUOTE=Repulsive Monkey]As I say if other arts use dummies then good on them. However Taiji certainly doesn't/hasn't used dummies for conditioning.
QUOTE]

From what I understand, the signature power in Tai Chi comes from borrowing the opponent's Yi Qi, and that makes Tai Chi not as effective against inanimate objects. Hence Yang Lu Chen once mentioned he can defeat any man except wooden man.

And since the wooden dummy has no Yi Qi, it is not a good Tai Chi training tool in my opinion. At least theoretically anyway.

However, the dummy itself as a general training tool is great, and incorporating it as part of an overall training program is very useful, whether one does Tai Chi or not.

Cheers,
John

[bamboo_ leaf]

Geane also taught southern mantis if my memories servers me, this may have influenced some of his training methods.

I have never heard of wooden dummy use in taiji. The problem that I see with such training is that it seems as though it would tend to just promote the usage of direct power with no real taiji skills. (I know him but he does not know me) comes to mind along with (being so light that a fly cannot land ect) reading some of these we can see the idea is on training the body to directly follow the mind giving up all ideas of conventional usage of force.


Because some teachers emphases certain skills sets or practices does not mean that their practice is either correct or incorrect. It may just mean that a certain level of understanding has not been reached yet, and what has been reached seems to work and is understood. Even if it is quite good it still may not reflect the highest abilities of taiji.

As an example, have some one place their hand on your arm or hand. And then see if you can maintain contact with it no matter how they move, fast or slow. Just see if you can really stick to it. It seems like a simple matter until one tries it.

This ability if true means that no one can apply a force to you . It also means that your touch and movements are very free and light you can either lead to others emptiness or send the force used back to them. This is taiji skill.

taiji, training should be focused on training the shen, yi, qi not on the bones, skin, tendons.

[Shooter]

leaf is correct