wing chun vs thai boxing in the 1960's

[kung fu fighter]

Hi
Have anyone heard the story about how some of yip man's students (about 16 of them) went over to challenge some thai boxers and all lost in the 1960's. Can you tell me the details. Was Wong Sheung Leung involved in this challenge match?

Thanks
kung fu fighter

[l@zylee]

no never heard of it mate, but I think these kind of stories are mostly a load of shyte anyway! :rolleyes:

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
A friend of mine showed me an old chinese newspaper article about how a group of Yip Man's students went to challenge a group of thai boxers and all lost because they were unprepared. I have heard this story from a few different linages of yip man's such as from Wang Kiu and Ho Kam Ming so I dont think it was just some made up story.
Perhaps some of the wong sheung leung people know more about this such as Gary Lam.

Thanks
kung fu fighter

[Ultimatewingchun]

Gary Lam happens to be someone who has fought Thai boxers back in the orient himself...and won.

Ask Ernie about it.

[Ernie]

now i suck at history , that stuff is not my cup of tea

i do know that Sifu lam sent his first set of wing chun guys to fight the thais and asked WSL what he needed to do to prepare them
and WSL told him nothing wing chun was more then enough

well 5 guys went out and 5 guys got mopped

at that point Sfu Lam went and trained in thailand to check out there methods

came home retrained and conditioned his guys 5 went 3 won
and he continued to have good results

i remember there were also other wing chun guys that got beat down by the thais and i also remember there being a fight were WSL got dropped as well not sure if it was with the thais

what does this have to do with you or me or today ----nothing ;)

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Hi
Have anyone heard the story about how some of yip man's students (about 16 of them) went over to challenge some thai boxers and all lost in the 1960's. Can you tell me the details. Was Wong Sheung Leung involved in this challenge match?

Thanks
kung fu fighter
Look for the video "Fighting Black Kings" It's a documentary about some Kyokushinka fighters from NY who went to a bare knuckle full contact match in Japan. There were fighters from around the world and from many styles. There is a segement where they show some WC guys doing forms. When the WC people fought they lost badly to the Kyokushinkai fighters.
PR

[Vankuen]

You know what's really really funny about all of this?

Almost everything we see out there that shows wing chun vs. this or that fighting style (almost always a group that actually fights full contact like BJJ or MT or Kyokushinkai)...wing chun typically loses.

Yet no one seems to address this in a public light. They still claim wing chun to be effective, and disregard the losses as hubbub.

Sooo then what are we to think of it when EVERY tape or video or article or actual fight that shows wing chun....shows it losing just about?

Personally I feel that wing chun is effective, but it's the training methods employed that typically make a fighter successful or not.

Does anyone else find this the least bit disturbing?

[Ernie]

it's easy to be king of the game when you set the rules and only play your game [wing chun vs wing chun ]
you can make up all kinds of stuff then create enviroments to prove your point [ chi sau , structure test , rooting etc..]

trying to apply those ideas to a person that does not play your game is something else :D


better to talk of tan bong and fook , and history , lineage

or else you might pop alot of bubbles ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Considering what Van just said...

"Almost everything we see out there that shows wing chun vs. this or that fighting style (almost always a group that actually fights full contact like BJJ or MT or Kyokushinkai)...wing chun typically loses.

Yet no one seems to address this in a public light. They still claim wing chun to be effective, and disregard the losses as hubbub..."


I thought I should post something I just put on a different thread:


When my student, Mike Mundy, won that contact fighting tournament back in the day...wherein I knew that a more straight-ahead chain punch and front kick type Wing Chun school would be competing...as well as some Karate schools that were invited...

I made sure that I, and a bunch of my other students, did the "other type" of Wing Chun for him when sparring...and some of my ex-karate students worked with him - and last but not least...on the day before the event I took Mike to my friend Al DiGrazia's Karate school (Kyokushin)- and had Mike spar (full contact) with one of Al's black belts for an hour.

It all paid off.

Michael Mundy won the Grand Championship of the tournament. (By the time Mike was supposed to fight...two different Karate guys already beat two Wing Chun guys - and then Mike beat both Karate guys).

Working against people trained in other methods of fighting is extremely important.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Vankuen
You know what's really really funny about all of this?

Almost everything we see out there that shows wing chun vs. this or that fighting style (almost always a group that actually fights full contact like BJJ or MT or Kyokushinkai)...wing chun typically loses.

Yet no one seems to address this in a public light. They still claim wing chun to be effective, and disregard the losses as hubbub.

Sooo then what are we to think of it when EVERY tape or video or article or actual fight that shows wing chun....shows it losing just about?

Personally I feel that wing chun is effective, but it's the training methods employed that typically make a fighter successful or not.

Does anyone else find this the least bit disturbing?
No you didn't . .ROFLMAO
You had to go there. :D
PR

[Phil Redmond]

I'm going to have to credit Sifu Duncan Leung for teaching me to get in there and fight and not just do chi sau. It was in his school that I put on headgear and took my lumps. Duncan's school turned out fighters that fought in full contact matches at Madison Square Garden. And this was in the 70s.
IMO, the best WC fighters in the city at that time in the were from 3 Great Jones Street.
PR

[Vajramusti]

We have gone round and round on Thai fighters. Selective memory and selective use of war stories.. People seem to remember the first round of Thai/WC encounters among relative beginners. And remind us of that first round. The results were quite different later on. Evened up and then edge to wing chun.

Several of Ho Kam Ming's macao proteges have done well against muay thai including Liu Min Fa and Tam.Tam has a website and I have met Liu Min Fa..Master Ho has provided details in some of his talks. His wing chun instruction operated on several different levels. Very intense for his full contact reps. Ask Buddy Wu in Ohio about all that sometime.

It's still an individual versus an individual. There can be bad wing chun or bad muay thai.

There is a big difference in training for personal safety and training for a sporting event. The cardio and many other fitness things have to be upped markedly. Even boxers who stay in shape have different regimens depending on whether a fight is coming up ot not.

[YungChun]

Oh my...

Sounds like some WCK folks actually won fighting against some MT people... Is this so?

[Big Vern]

Hi Guys.

Simply put:
You fight like you train.
The 4 key essentials in order to compete in full contact successfully are:
1. Attitude/Aggression.
2. Conditioning.
3. Skill.
4. Tactics.

Most WC/WT only really centre on no.3, while Thai/MMA etc always work on 1-4.

B.V.

[chi sau]

spot on big vern
couldnt have put it better myself
i think agression or mindset is the most important factor of all
you can have all the skill inthe world but without the mentality its useless
peace

[YungChun]

Hi Guys.

Simply put:
You fight like you train.
The 4 key essentials in order to compete in full contact successfully are:
1. Attitude/Aggression.
2. Conditioning.
3. Skill.
4. Tactics.

Most WC/WT only really centre on no.3, while Thai/MMA etc always work on 1-4.

B.V.
At the risk of sounding like someone else around here.. :o

I'd say one of the essentials of training for full contact is full/hard contact... Of course done in an intelligent manner.. Those dam eggbeater air punches are one of the MAJOR problems with any training that allows/encourages it.. They should be outlawed.. ;)

Even the simplest moves, intercepting in the air and actually trying to do damage is like another world.. Distance, timing and mechanics are TOTALLY different.. Don't think that working stuff with 'simulated contact' is going to translate to doing damage--it won't for 99.9% of folks. And don't forget to work all the weapons, fists, palms, knees, elbows and kicks..

Lots of good tactics and moves in the system.. Yes I said system Terence..and I'll say it again...

SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM SYSTEM :p

Learning how to release power also takes care of number 2 and makes the rest possible..

The other thing is moving past contact or bridge range training and into 'no bridge' or distance work.. Folks must begin to cultivate visual sensitivity and bring that up to speed with tactile sensitivity.. This will allow folks to realize that they are not training to "chi sao their opponent" but rather to break down the opponent with the power of their striking, an essential, if the stuff learned in training is ever going to work, cause the thing is that the chi sao training will only work when you ARE NOT trying to chi sao your opponent but rather you are trying to take him out.

[chi sau]

I'd say one of the essentials of training for full contact is full/hard contact... Of course done in an intelligent manner.. Those dam eggbeater air punches are one of the MAJOR problems with any training that allows/encourages it.. They should be outlawed..

i agree with that statement but to me that also come under the heading conditioning
maybe its semantics
peace

[Phist]

In professional full rules MT match, couple of first rounds the boxers just warm up and feel each other out, they don't usually do all out full on rush.

The rule set dictates the tactics to a great extent, kicks score more than punches, so they kick a lot because even blocked kicks are awarded points.

Besides general conditioning, they do shin conditioning to harden up the legs.

In training, professionals don't spar at 100%, it wouldn't make much sense. same goes with other forms of competiton kick boxing.

MT is a great sport, but it is also a great way to wreck a body. Thais are generally done at 25 - 30, maybe having hudreds of competion matches behind them.

But then you could just kick and punch pads and bags and say "I train MT".

Naturally athletic youngsters with competition drive gravitate to sports where they can competete. Wing Chun usually attracts a different crowd.

Muay Thai is no magic word. The most dominant stand up fighter at the moment, Dutch Semmy Schilt is a Kyokushin man.

I've competed in my youth, nowadays i'm content to trying to learn a system, where you can improve as long as you will.

[YungChun]

Besides general conditioning, they do shin conditioning to harden up the legs.

Good point..

WCK folks serious about competing should do the same...

I don't know the traditional rule-set but depending on what they are WCK kicks may not be legal to the legs, if not then you need a work around.


In training, professionals don't spar at 100%

Well they spar with hard contact..and folks need that experience especially if they have never had it, assuming they want to compete..

And in drilling they are using full power, on pads, air bags, etc.


Wing Chun usually attracts a different crowd.

Very true...

I'm posting a poll to find out how different..

[Knifefighter]

MT is a great sport, but it is also a great way to wreck a body.

Complete B.S.

Hang around with some ex-pro MT fighters in their 40's & 50's. You will see that, not only are their bodies not wrecked, they can still throw some killer moves. They just don't compete and/or train anymore.

[jesper]

MT is a contact sport so ofcourse some are gonna be hurt for life after doing it for years.

But supricingly few actually sustain lasting damage to their body.
your really more likely to become "crippled" as a elite soccer player or baskeplayer.

[kung fu fighter]

Hey guys!

Much to the suprise of most wing chun people who have to defend themselves. Chi sao skills only aid in preparing one for fighting. it's not fighting, one needs to fight in order to learn how to fight. Chi sao is only one component of the whole ( a very important one but still only one component).

Muai thai fighters and boxers fight all the time in there training.