Denver schools

[newbfu]

I was wondering if anyone can tell me about shaolin do schools in colorado. I think they go be Chinese shaolin center? I recentley saw a demo at CU and was not tottaly impressed as they showed every style one could name. This is my only option if I wish to learn Kung fu, as I can not afford any other program.

Any thoughts on the matter?


newb the greenhorn

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Check out Wah Lum Kung Fu in Denver, Sifu Eric Bernsdorf.

http://www.wahlumdenver.com/

He just expanded his school into a gym. His rates should be competitive with others in the area.

[Wharg0ul]

http://www.shao-lin.com

Elder Masters Sharon and David Soard host the Denver shcool. The address is:

4012 W. 38th Ave
Denver, CO 80212
(303) 455-4088

Our kung-fu is not designed for performance, so it's not as "pretty" as many others. It's functional, it works, and it's very complete. Any demonstration was probably butchered forms with key moves removed, obviously to keep the full form in the school.

Prices are very good, by month or longer term, with no contracts or scams or other trash. A year's membership makes it $25 per month, with classes up to four times per week.

And....LOTS of sparring. LOTS and LOTS of sparring.

[MasterKiller]

Do a search for Shaolin-Do discussions on this board. You'll see a lot of people that differ in opinion with ole' Wharg0ul here.

My recommendation is to contact NortherPracticioner or StarChaser107 by PM. They take traditional Long Fist in the Denver area. It is authentic Kung Fu.

Becca studies Pai Lum in the Denver area, I think, too.

[MasterKiller]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23361&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12742&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32782&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32655&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32180&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29536&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29350&highlight=ShaolinDo

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29244&highlight=ShaolinDo

[Wharg0ul]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. Mine is based on personal experience, and I've had nothing but good experiences in our school.

The thread starter asked a question, and I answered it.


oh, and who wants to read 100's of forum pages of ignorant people being disgustingly disrespectful anyway?

I've been a lurker on these forums for some time now, and it shames me to practice the same art as these people sometimes. With the exception of a few people who obviously understand more than the physical aspects of kung-fu, the majority of this forum's population is nothing but a bunch of trolls.

Besides....the system obviously works, Myself and many others use it in sparring on an almost daily basis. You won't find any forms or moves with no application or intent...every flick of the wrist has a puprose, and can be used by a creative student. I'd rather participate in something useful, and practical, even if hordes of forum trolls enjoy criticizing it.

Maybe the thread starter will come to think this way as well, and his/her life will be enriched with the wonder of kung-fu....at a reasonable price :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Maybe the thread starter will come to think this way as well, and his/her life will be enriched with the wonder of kung-fu....at a reasonable price :D That was my point. If he wants kung fu, he should contact NP, StarChaser, or Becca.

If he wants Indonesian Karate with a ****load of inaccurate, flat-out falsified history and distorted lineages, he might look into CSC...

Ask yourself this....do these videos look like good kung fu???

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/clips.htm

[MasterKiller]

Besides, the Soards are the ones who paid $2000 for that Steele to be erected at Shaolin (where lots and lots of others have done the same), and then told everyone Shaolin paid to put the monument up to honor Sin The' and his contribution to Shaolin kung fu. Why on earth would you want to study under people who make up bull**** claims like that???

You guys can't even agree with the Shaolin-Doers on whether or not Sin The' was Ie Ching Men's grandson or not. Or even the year he died! I mean, c'mon...you'd think you guys would get the story straight sooner or later.

[norther practitioner]

PM me.. you have several options around Denver.

[GeneChing]

Actually, only a few have been able to place steles at Shaolin. Shaolin-Do, to their credit, managed to do one really early. USSD did one recently too, as I'm sure you've heard. Wah Lum has one, also placed early. Taguo placed one a few years ago, but that one is way inside the temple yard, not in the entry corrider where the others are placed. I can't imagine what it costs to place one now. I have an idea, but there's so much behind-the-scenes guanxi action that the real cost is probably much more than whatever was paid. I tried to place one back when I was with Wing Lam. We failed miserably, mostly due to lack of guanxi.

[norther practitioner]

My favorite ever, was at a SDer saying...

How come our taiji doesn't look like that...

[Wharg0ul]

Sorry, man. Don't need to look at the clips. I know how our kung-fu looks. I'm more interested in how it works. And it works VERY well. There's no "flowery fists and embroidered kicks" here.

You can attack our system and dispute our history all you want. It doesn't change the fact that it works. There are uncountable elements and forms that are obviously traditionally chinese, and the wealth of material to be learned is enough to keep one busy for the rest of their lives.

It's a good system. GM Sin The' is a good man. That's enough for me, and countless of students who enjoy a FUNCTIONAL system of kung-fu that's very inexpensive.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
My favorite ever, was at a SDer saying...

How come our taiji doesn't look like that...

Some people don't even realise that tai chi can be used to FIGHT, let alone that there are differant styles of it. Ingorant people exist in any system, race, or nation.

[MasterKiller]

Ingorant people exist in any system, race, or nation. And for some reason, they tend to congregate at SD and CSC schools...

[Wharg0ul]

maybe they seek to learn something to remedy their ignorance?

[MasterKiller]

Then it's the blind leading the blind. When the teachers pass lies and misdirection as fact, the students have no chance...

[Wharg0ul]

That's your claim. That does not make fact. Are you an immortal being who has sat and witnessed the progression of our lineage? Somehow I think not.
I do think that the combination of time, language, and cultural revolution can can cast shadows on the exact progression of events in history, however. No one can prove beyond doubt weather the claims made by our GM are legitimate or not. But those of us who have met the man are inclined to think he is not a liar.

I don't claim to know for sure myself. I judge the system by the results, and they are excellant.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Besides, the Soards are the ones who paid $2000 for that Steele to be erected at Shaolin (where lots and lots of others have done the same), and then told everyone Shaolin paid to put the monument up to honor Sin The' and his contribution to Shaolin kung fu. Why on earth would you want to study under people who make up bull**** claims like that???

You guys can't even agree with the Shaolin-Doers on whether or not Sin The' was Ie Ching Men's grandson or not. Or even the year he died! I mean, c'mon...you'd think you guys would get the story straight sooner or later.


Why I even care......but,


To the best of my knowledge, no one ever said that the temple paid for the marker. The Soard's funded it. Hell, I don't even associate with them and I knew that. There is also one that was done in Chen Village that was paid for by the students. If someone stated otherwise, they were wrong.

As for the grandson issue, that all came about when the brothers split. I was around both of them for many years and NEVER heard Master Ie being refered to as a grandfather. Only after Hiang left and started his own club did he become the grandson.

As for when Master Ie died, it was Master Haing that came back from Bandung with the news....in 1976! Now perhaps Master Ie died and kept it from everyone until then but that is when he relayed the info. Interesting thing is that Master Sin was promoted to Grand Master in '68. Then after the split, Ie's death date was moved back to pre-GM Sin's promotion. Hmmm. Then theres the fact that all the years (late 60's to '84-ish) Sin and Hiang were together, Sin always had 10 stripes and Hiang 6 (till he was promoted to 7th) and Sin was refered to as Grand Master by Hiang. Then all the sudden, its Grand Master Hiang. Hell, even in the early pics on his site after the split he is still a 7th.

Anyhoo, back to nap time.......

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
No one can prove beyond doubt weather the claims made by our GM are legitimate or not. The Indonesian law banning Chinese martial arts was established in 1965. Sin The' came to America in 1964; yet, he claims Ie Ching Men established the "tradition" of Japanese uniforms because of the ban.

That's strike 1.

[GeneChing]

... and just think, just yesterday I was thinking that this Shaolin forum had been a little dead lately. I was hoping something might liven things up. Little did I think it would be the ol' SD debate again. Be careful what you wish for... :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Hey, baby. I'm just doing my part.

[Judge Pen]

Wohoo! A goold old fashioned SD debate.

First of all thanks to GT for his perspective--always enlightening.

And thanks to MK for the banning argument. Yep,1965 was the first official national ban (as far as we can tell). That's not to say that discrimination and local ordinances didn't exist prior to that national ban to necessitate the change. In fact, by the time something becomes national, you can almost guarentee that there's some grass roots action driving the legislation.

Thanks to Gene for saying that something "was to SD's credit." :p

Finally, thanks to Wharg0ul for digging up the bones. It should be fun.

[MasterKiller]

The ban was a direct result from an ethnic chinese riot in 1965.

[Judge Pen]

Why would they be rioting? Because they were subject ot discrimination! :D

Have a link for that information?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Have a link for that information?

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29825&highlight=Indonesian

[Judge Pen]

I remember that link well, but I never had the chance to read the underlying article. I did e-mail Dr. Davies, and he was very cordial in his response. He was unaware of any local ordinances, but indicated that it was a possibility. I seem to recall him indicating that research in local laws can be difficult as well. I'm looking for that e-mail now, but I must have deleated it. Rad, do you have a copy of the one that I sent you?

Also, that thread reminded me of the Coach He discussion. After much deliberation, I elected to not contact her.

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
The Indonesian law banning Chinese martial arts was established in 1965. Sin The' came to America in 1964; yet, he claims Ie Ching Men established the "tradition" of Japanese uniforms because of the ban.

That's strike 1.

the thing i don't get is that supposedly gi and belt system was incorporated because of japanese persecution of chinese(something like that) but japan only occupied Indonesia between 1942-1945. also from SD's websites and articles they wrote have GM Sin being born in 1943, 1944 and 1945.

how many actual forms are they. also how many i chin ching are there.

[Wharg0ul]

49 I chin ching, as I learned it, if you don't count good ole # 50....ya know, lying on your back in exaustion staring at the ceiling ;)

Judge Pen: bones nothing, m8. SD practitioners should be able to discuss their system on the Kung-Fu Magazine forums without being slanderised by trolls. The disrespect and ill-will are unnecessary.

At least SD embodies genuine kung-fu principals such as respect for others and an open mind. If my instructer caught me carrying on the way some here do, I'd be kicked from my school.

It's like when Gracy Jujitsu students claim to be the best fighters in the world....I smile, nod politely, and walk away. There's no point arguing, just enjoy the system you've chosen and allow others to do the same.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
At least SD embodies genuine kung-fu principals such as respect for others and an open mind. If my instructer caught me carrying on the way some here do, I'd be kicked from my school. Open mind. Bah! JP and maybe Rad are about the only SD guys that reasonably listen to the proof provided against some of Sin The's claims without crying. Everyone else sticks their fingers in their ears and screams lalalalalalalallalalala Sin The' is the Shao-Lin Grandmaster lalalalalalalalalalala. Right, meecer? :eek:

[Wharg0ul]

Please also note that the Chinese Shaolin Centers are structurally quite differant than the system depicted at shaolin-do.com

We also have our own set of elder masters, masters, and a slightly differant ranking system. Our material by rank is VASTLY differant. All branches of SD cannot realistically be lumped together.

[mortal]

To each his own.

My problem with shaolin-do is the amount of forms taught. So many being completely different systems. Ranging from every internal art to 4 different kinds of pakau.
I find it hard to believe any one mastered all those systems. As a matter of fact it is impossible. Anyone could know many forms but what is the point in that? How well can you do the forms you know?

Masterkiller might sound like a troll if you don't know him. But he makes good points. This has been discussed so many times he can just point out every hole in the shaolin-do story with such little effort.

[Wharg0ul]

This is why there were originally multiple masters who each carried a part of the shaolin tradition. I'm sure GM The' is a bit of a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none, however, the fact that he is able to teach the forms and systems to his students, who can then decide what direction to take their individual mastery is a plus.

And anyone who haunts forums waiting for a chance to bash and flame others IS in fact, a troll. This is is the Kung-Fu mastery forum, not the Masterkiller forum.

As far as history is concearned, who knows? No one was there, no one can say. But I'm not going to look a kind, wise man in the face and call him a liar, based on the ravings of a rabid forum troll.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Please also note that the Chinese Shaolin Centers are structurally quite differant than the system depicted at shaolin-do.com

Not really... same belts... same ranks...

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

We also have our own set of elder masters, masters, and a slightly differant ranking system. Our material by rank is VASTLY differant. All branches of SD cannot realistically be lumped together.

Sure, but they're still junior to Ky... same ranking system... material is the same... same head guy in charge... where's the "drastic" changes. I do like the fact that the Soards did bring outside material that ****ed Ky off... that was precious...

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart
Not really... same belts... same ranks...



Sure, but they're still junior to Ky... same ranking system... material is the same... same head guy in charge... where's the "drastic" changes. I do like the fact that the Soards did bring outside material that ****ed Ky off... that was precious...


Thanks for the kind words JP, just trying to keep the peace.

Sean, actually it was after a meeting that took place in Denver between Master Sin, the Soards and a few of the old time Masters from KY, Tenn and GEORGIA that *****ed off KY. Had nothing to do with any material. The meeting was meant to unify the East and the West and at its conclusion, all was "supposed" to be settled. They were cordially invited out to our tournements and seminars but declined. We were invited out there also but then that invite was resinded. After that, well....same old same old.

What most fail to remember is that ALL the main schools started at the Sports Center many moons ago. Then as people moved off, the style spread. What those people choose to do and why it was "tolerated" is none of my concern.

And MK, I wish I had been on that rational list with JP and Rad. :(

[Wharg0ul]

I'm basing my claim of differances only on what I read at shaolin-do.com, and what I see of the Gi patches. We have a couple more patches from what I see, and the material by rank is totally differant. You also would be hard pressed to find the word "Kata" anywhere in our school.

[sean_stonehart]

Material by rank is as interchangeable as Leggo blocks. It's the same stuff.

[sean_stonehart]

GT ... PM'd you...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger

And MK, I wish I had been on that rational list with JP and Rad. :(

You are in my book GT (even if we have butted heads on the uniform issue a couple of times. ;) )

Wharg, I wasn't criticizing you for digging up the bones, per se m8. It's just this argument is a merry-go-roud here; it will get no where. And sure the Soards do their own thing, like CSC Atlanta does their own thing, like my teacher's group in Tennessee does his own thing, and KY does it's own thing. But its all GM The's material. Mix it however you want. The manner it is practiced is what's important.

If you develop some thick skin, try to ignore the SD detractors, and keep your discussions to actual technique, women, movies, or football (I personally try to avoid the religion and politics) then this is a fun and informative forum.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by mortal
To each his own.

My problem with shaolin-do is the amount of forms taught. So many being completely different systems. Ranging from every internal art to 4 different kinds of pakau.
I find it hard to believe any one mastered all those systems. As a matter of fact it is impossible. Anyone could know many forms but what is the point in that? How well can you do the forms you know?



I'm not claiming mastery of every form or slice of a system that I know. Heck, my teacher, who is a Master in SD's book, doesn't claim "mastery" to these systems. I work my forms up as well as I can, break them down to their core principles, and drill them up so I can use them. Is that so different?

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
You are in my book GT (even if we have butted heads on the uniform issue a couple of times. ;) )

Wharg, I wasn't criticizing you for digging up the bones, per se m8. It's just this argument is a merry-go-roud here; it will get no where. And sure the Soards do their own thing, like CSC Atlanta does their own thing, like my teacher's group in Tennessee does his own thing, and KY does it's own thing. But its all GM The's material. Mix it however you want. The manner it is practiced is what's important.

If you develop some thick skin, try to ignore the SD detractors, and keep your discussions to actual technique, women, movies, or football (I personally try to avoid the religion and politics) then this is a fun and informative forum.

I will take your advice to heart. I was about to give up on these forums entirely, but then I looked at my own sig, and remembered....

The Soards have things structured in a way that makes it feel very Kung-Fu, and very formal. We have some fantastic artists here in Colorado. Not to mention that when GM The' visits, it's only an hour drive for me to Denver from Colorado Springs.

The altitude does wonders for endurance, and makes outdoor conditioning very interesting indeed.

anyway, back to lurking....

[Brad]

To the original question, if you don't like the quality of what you saw, then don't waste money on a place you won't be happy with. It's better to wait and find a place latter of high quality, than to spend time learning stuff that's not so great, especially if you're a beginer. For beginers it's best to find a place that will teach really solid basics, otherwise you could learn bad habits and make things more difficult for yourself down the road.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Brad
To the original question, if you don't like the quality of what you saw, then don't waste money on a place you won't be happy with. It's better to wait and find a place latter of high quality, than to spend time learning stuff that's not so great, especially if you're a beginer. For beginers it's best to find a place that will teach really solid basics, otherwise you could learn bad habits and make things more difficult for yourself down the road.

Which is how I ended up at The Colorado Springs Chinese Shaolin Center :D

Shop around, try to sit in on a class with each prospective school. See if the students treat each other with respect. See if a lot of chattering, swearing, or horesplay occur...so much that it cuts into class time and prevents focus, for example.
Watch them spar (and avoid schools that don't, IMO) and see if the techniques being used are practical, and work well. Observe the safety and respect present during sparring.
Study the instructor, as it is assumed that he/she should know what they are doing by now....when they demonstrate techniques, how is their form and internal energy? Would you be proud to fight like that? Do they take the time to address student's questions and problems? And, how is their character, and temperment?
Be especially careful of signing a contract. This can leave you legally bound to pay them for your membership even if you're laid up in the hopsital or something, unable to participate in class or work. When you DO decide on a school, try to buy one month only at first, as a trial. It is for this purpose that the Shaolin centers don't even make you buy/wear a uniform for the first month....to make sure you like it.

Good luck on your search for Kung-Fu. :)

[newbfu]

I went again to a csc at CU tonight.

Great work out.

the rest was mostly bogus basic stuff.

I also BJJ and aikido. Ill put my BJJ or aikido tranning against shaolin do any day, just for the sake of it...

Just dont know how to feel about these folks. Nice people for sure, but the kung fu is sloppy.

It takes only one semiester to get a green belt! one student told me he got a black belt in a year and a half.

If this system does use a standard ranking system I can say this school is tottaly fake. If on the other hand I am missing something please correct me.

[Judge Pen]

Like I said earlier, each school does it's own thing and stresses things differently. If someone told me they could get a black sash in one-year and one-half, I would turn away too. You most certainly cannot reach that level in my school at that time. At a bare minimum, for very dedicated students, it would be 3 years. (That's probably too fast for some concerned here, but I can't change the facts; I just work with them).

As for bjj and SD; different animals. An SD person should cross-train in ground arts to be more complete, but how is that different from any kung fu school. People should cross-train (period). And I play around with Aikido too. I've cross-trained in that style, my gf just started taking that style, and I plan to cross-train in that style again once I heal up. It's a good style; and I recognize many of the techniques taught in aikido are present in my forms. I just didn't have the insight to see it as well.

Find a school that trains hard and you will be happy.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by newbfu
I went again to a csc at CU tonight.

Great work out.

the rest was mostly bogus basic stuff.

One would think that most new classes would start with the basics. I do wonder what or why you consider it bogus?

I also BJJ and aikido. Ill put my BJJ or aikido tranning against shaolin do any day, just for the sake of it...

Are you refering to the training or the techniques? I have a former black belt student that is now studying Aikido. From time to time we discuss what he is learning and more times than not, SD's material also offered the same technique.


It takes only one semiester to get a green belt! one student told me he got a black belt in a year and a half.

As JP stated, "most" SD schools have it mapped out so that at the very least, it will take you 2 1/2 years to attain black belt. So thats: 2 classes a week plus open gym times X 36 months = about 100 hours of instruction. Compare that to a MS at a university (~33 hours of classes) or even a Ph.D (generally 3-4 years). I would say that SD in right on track.

If this system does use a standard ranking system I can say this school is tottaly fake. If on the other hand I am missing something please correct me.

Do you mean that having a ranking system constitutes "fakeness"?

You know, I kinda missed this I guess......has my life become that boring in my old age?

Side note: At least I still am able to get into this "board"...hint hint JP:)

[Judge Pen]

PM sent, GT.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
And anyone who haunts forums waiting for a chance to bash and flame others IS in fact, a troll. This is is the Kung-Fu mastery forum, not the Masterkiller forum. You think I just hang around to bash Shaolin-Do? Sheesh. Get over yourself.

You keep whining about how polite your started out, but lest ye be reminded of this little quote:

With the exception of a few people who obviously understand more than the physical aspects of kung-fu, the majority of this forum's population is nothing but a bunch of trolls. Your second post ever here. Oh yeah! You're the epitmoy of wude. *****. And then you wonder why the wrath of MK was unleashed?

[Brad]

I agree about that quote... there's thousands of forum members on this site, how many just sit around waiting for SD members to show up and bash them? JP has been getting along fine with most everyone despite being a well known Shaolin-Do member. Punches, kicks, throws, self defence, etc. are things most all martial arts have in common... why not stick to those in discussion rather than digging up old arguements. Arguing your school's efectiveness is kind of pointless over the internet too seeing as how you can't hit someone through a computer screen. Just leave an open invitation for people to come by and fight or spar in your signiture(go to your user control panel to add it), and leave it at that.

Intellegently participating in discussions about self defence, fighting, training methods, etc. without dragging up a bunch of linneage crap are good ways to possibly get your school some respect. If you insist on arguing Shaolin-Do history, you really should do your research to answer some basic questions. Just saying it isn't verifiable isn't enough... some stuff really should be easilly verifiable. For example, SD claims all 5 major familly's taiji styles in their system. Each of these should trace back to the famillies themselves which are still alive. Sun style, for example, is a very young taiji style. The Sun style creator's daughter only recently passed away, so it shouldn't be that hard to backtrack Shaolin-Do's Sun style lineage. There's some other styles represented in SD's curriculum with similar situations. If you really want to help people understand/believe SD's history, you should try researching it in depth. Just because something's older than we are, doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to find evidence of it happening.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
JP has been getting along fine with most everyone despite being a well known Shaolin-Do member.

This makes me sound so dirty. :p

Originally posted by Brad
For example, SD claims all 5 major familly's taiji styles in their system. Each of these should trace back to the famillies themselves which are still alive. Sun style, for example, is a very young taiji style. The Sun style creator's daughter only recently passed away, so it shouldn't be that hard to backtrack Shaolin-Do's Sun style lineage.

Ok, I'm only aware of two of the major styles is our curriculim, Yang and Chen (unless you are counting the 24 combined--in that case it's been cleared up that Master Sin learned this form recently and taught it to his students because it's the most popular form.)

[sean_stonehart]

JP... PM...

[Brad]

I've seen all five styles claimed before(in a history section explaining what came from what temple), but I honestly can't find any reference to all five being part of the SD curriculum anymore. Things seem to change a lot on some of the SD websites(like the explanaition of where that Shaolin Temple tablet comes from).

[MasterKiller]

http://www.ohioshaolin.com/SHAOLINDO%20Images/ShaolinTemple.htm

I'd also like to point out that while the story goes that Ie Ching Ming started the whole "gi" thing...he is always shown wearing frogged tops. Funny, huh?

http://www.ohioshaolin.com/iechangming.htm

If the guy died circa 76, why aren't there any photos? Why all the crappy paintings? Especially since there is a photo of his teacher, Su Kong?

[Brad]

There you go, about half way down... this isn't the site that I first saw this on, but the info is similar.

[Brad]

Looking at that website, one thing particularly bothers me... he uses photos from copyrighted materials, plus material from non-Shaolin-Do related teachers without giving credit. I don't think that's exactly legal, especially since that website is an advertisement for a school and not someone's personal hobby website. If your advertising for a Shaolin-Do school, you shouldn't use Dr. Paul Lam's photos for an instructional section, especially without saying who it is.

[Radhnoti]

MK - "I'd also like to point out that while the story goes that Ie Ching Ming started the whole "gi" thing...he is always shown wearing frogged tops. Funny, huh?"

You'll also note that the paintings with GM Ie in "frogged tops" shows his students (if they are depicted) wearing gis...

MK - "If the guy died circa 76, why aren't there any photos? Why all the crappy paintings?"

One of the teachers, I believe his name was Liu Su Pong though I've also heard "Birdman" as he's reportedly the source (a family style) of a portion of our material, was a painter who gave his portraits to the The' brothers.

To be fair to the critics, in the other thread JP speaks of his cross-training and I believe GT mentioned working with a student training in aikido. It has NOT been my experience that the shaolin-do heirarchy appreciates students working "out of system". The shaolin-do political nonsense is...bad. Only a touch of it is hinted at here in this thread. It's a shame because, frankly, no matter how much you try to shield the newer students they sense when it's going on. And, GT, if your hint to JP gets you access anywhere let me know so I can start dropping some of my own...which is not to say that I blame them one bit for buttoning things down. Why take heat for something you weren't charging for...just hoping for a free and open exchange of information? It's just inexcusable that things go down the way they do...again, in my opinion.

It is my opinion that shaolin-do should be categorized as kuntao. JP, I've e-mailed you Dr. Davies' response to your original e-mail. Sorry I don't have a lot of time for all this again, hope you guys have fun with the debate! :D

[Jhapa]

one thing i don't like about SD(at my school) is that they are so quick to criticize other school, how SD is so much better because it teaches the complete kung fu. besides SD, i also go to another instructor, currently we are learning tiger crane. we'll see how that goes. GM The is coming to teach a seminar on some praying mantis form.

I hate wearing gi.

[Judge Pen]

Ok, the sites with information from material "from the temple" lists all 5 families, but to my knowledge only material from Yang and Chen have been taught.

It's a shame when any school criticizes another school so willingly. Not that a healthy and realistic sense of confidence is bad, but it can all to quickly cross the line into inappropriate comments. If that was your experience Jhapa, then I'm sorry even though I have nothing to do with CSC in Colorodo.

Rad: PM

[newbfu]

I just learned something through all of this posting. people miss quote and only half read posts.

Many of the things in all MA are the same.

I became interested in kung fu when a pai lum teacher showed me how they do a particular joint lock. It was the same a nikyo(sp) from aikido, except I had never seen it done so well.


Cross tranning is key.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by newbfu
I just learned something through all of this posting. people miss quote and only half read posts.

Many of the things in all MA are the same.

I became interested in kung fu when a pai lum teacher showed me how they do a particular joint lock. It was the same a nikyo(sp) from aikido, except I had never seen it done so well.


Cross tranning is key.

Excellent observation newbfu! You're taken your first correct!

[Ralphie]

man, it's like opening a time capsule on this thread. Oh well. Hey GT, wasn't there a not-so-cordial visit to the Soards by your Ky brethren? Heard about that, and laughed a little. To all the guys I haven't chatted with in a while, hope you're doing well.

[BM2]

Ditto Radhnoti.

[BM2]

seeing as how you can't hit someone through a computer screen. Quote from Brad.

Wouldn't that be funny :D POW!!!! **** that would be funny :p

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Ralphie
man, it's like opening a time capsule on this thread. Oh well. Hey GT, wasn't there a not-so-cordial visit to the Soards by your Ky brethren? Heard about that, and laughed a little. To all the guys I haven't chatted with in a while, hope you're doing well.


Actually it was pretty much the whole East Coast crew(KY, Ga, Tenn, Mich and Master Sin).

And while the mood might have been "not-so-cordial", the purpose was quite different. We all just wanted to "get along".

But like most familes, "just 'cause your my brother doesn't mean we have to get along...."

[norther practitioner]

What up Ralphie.....

yeah.. welcome to the next colorado thread.. why the fug does this always go back to the Soard's school..

[Ralphie]

Yo NP,
Dunno. I think it's because we don't have a lot to offer in regards to Kung Fu here in Colorado. Let me know of any good demos coming up this year, I'd love to check out some more. I've been mia due to work load. Also, I have to say I've turned into a bit of a mma nut, and don't practice KF that much anymore.

[Starchaser107]

marketing , marketing , marketing...

brainwashing..marketing..yadda.

[norther practitioner]

I'll let you know, I think we have one or two for chinese new years.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Ralphie
Yo NP,
Dunno. I think it's because we don't have a lot to offer in regards to Kung Fu here in Colorado.

?!!?!!? What part of Colorado are YOU in? We have more kung-fu schools in the Springs than you could shake a stick at. And there are some pretty good ones.

[Starchaser107]

namely...

[norther practitioner]

:confused:

I've heard of one.. ok, well maybe two, if you count you guys...


black lotus are the only ones I've really heard of...

it is sparse, compared to some other areas of the country...

But we may be having a new eagle claw master coming to town....

;) :D

[Wharg0ul]

we have TWO Wah Lum schools in town (that I know of), a good Wing Chun school ( http://www.wtcolorado.com/ ) , Black Lotus, as mentioned above....

...you could sort through this LIST (http://yp.yahoo.com/py/ypResults.py?Pyt=Typ&city=Cimarron+Hills&state=CO&uzip=80915&country=us&msa=1720&cs=4&ed=xghFD61o2TxkYbM1QLGVNMziukswATnYTtBz6Xq.JFk7eA--&tab=B2C&stx=8120454&stp=y&doprox=1&sorttype=distance&beyond=1&desc=Martial+Arts&offset=0&FBoffset=0&toggle=&stat=ClkPrvUpper&ls=&lp=) of 94 martial art schools in this city and sort out the kung-fu schools.....of course this doesn't include the little exclusive schools, and what-not.

[Starchaser107]

All I'm seeing is tkd and karate

I can shake a stick at more than 3 or 4 schools.

I'm also skeptical of this Shorin Kung Fu

Shorin is a japanese word.

Some things are dubious to the discerning eye/ear

"Tibetan Capoeira"

"Roman Catholic Vale Tudo"

..I'm just sayin'

[Wharg0ul]

well, yeah, of course you have the usual assortment of "wtf??" schools. That was a list I found doing a google search for "Colorado Springs Martial Arts".....may want to try "Colorado Springs Kung Fu", or whatever. I'm constantly running across flyers for Kung-Fu schools here...not sure if they're listed there or not.

But the real point is, they're here, if you look for them.

[Starchaser107]

oki smokey

[Starchaser107]

did i post this already

www.taikungha.com

hung gar and taiji

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
did i post this already

www.taikungha.com

hung gar and taiji

NICE! :cool:

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, I always forget about the wah lum guys in highlands ranch.....

:D

Chan Poi likes to tease Christophe.... how many students do you have in Denver....:D

I've heard of one wingchung guy who is ok...

there is an eagle claw guy around, doesn't speak any english really, I think he's got one student, then there is a group who do good internal.. bagua, xingyi, etc... Shaolin Hung Mei Pai in Boulder, And the hung ga that chaser's girl used to go to.. Becca's group up in thorton, and I heard of another southern fella up in the northwest suburbs somewhere.

[Becca]

Originally posted by newbfu
I just learned something through all of this posting. people miss quote and only half read posts.

Many of the things in all MA are the same.

I became interested in kung fu when a pai lum teacher showed me how they do a particular joint lock. It was the same a nikyo(sp) from aikido, except I had never seen it done so well.


Cross tranning is key.
Joint locks is joint locks. They are always the same. Not to bash the Pai Lum instructor, as I study Pai Lum. But I have studied other arts and still maintain my ninjitzu training. 70% of the "new matriel" I recieve in class is the same. Only the application and theory behind it differs. I'm pretty sure the 30% that isn't a refresher is 'cause ninjitzu just ain't all that strong in the stand-up game.

[Becca]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Yeah, I always forget about the wah lum guys in highlands ranch.....

:D

Chan Poi likes to tease Christophe.... how many students do you have in Denver....:D

I've heard of one wingchung guy who is ok...

there is an eagle claw guy around, doesn't speak any english really, I think he's got one student, then there is a group who do good internal.. bagua, xingyi, etc... Shaolin Hung Mei Pai in Boulder, And the hung ga that chaser's girl used to go to.. Becca's group up in thorton, and I heard of another southern fella up in the northwest suburbs somewhere.

... And the one in Arvada, as well as one currently being set up in the south metro area that isn't open yet for Pai Lum. There's also some Sil Lum in Westminster. Buches more north of the Denver area, in Loveland, Longmont, and Ft. Collins. All good traditional schools that actually practice what they preach.:)

[norther practitioner]

becca,

can you get me some info on these other schools.. I'm going to do a big invite for our cheng san feng festival this year....

[Becca]

mmmm... I got to look, I only found part of it. I'll PM you when I've found the rest. Which one's are you most interested in?

[norther practitioner]

Just what you got is fine...

thanks