18 Louhan Hands question

[Royal Dragon]

Wasthis one of the original exercises of Da Mo? Or added later?

Also, can anyone describe what it is in Song Shan Shaolin?

I have a tape of the Mantis set, but I donot think it is the actual 18 Louhan Hands, I think it is something called that in Mantis lineages and has it's own purpose and intent.

Also, as *I* understand it, the 18 Louhan Hands is a very important Qi Gong set of Shaolin. This being so, how come there is no video on it from Shaolin? We see Xue Xui Jing, and Yi Jin Jing, why not 18 Louhan? The martial sets are around, why not the Qi Gong?

[ngokfei]

who knows really

I've personally seen 5 sets from Song Shan Shaolin Temple Style and while some similarities alot of differences.

Some classify the different forms as roads, Part 1, 2, 3......

also there is the 18 lohan hands and 18 lohan palms

?????

[Royal Dragon]

Where thay all called 18 Louhan hands? Was the general nature the same? Example, were they all posture holding sets?

[MasterKiller]

There are several versions of the 18 Lohan floating around. I've never seen a definitive source.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, that's why I am trying to narrow it down to what Song Shan Shaolin is doing. I'd like to know what the Temple itself teaches as 18 Louhan Hands.

So far, all I have seen on it appears to be from Choy Lay Fut lines. That one is a static posture holding set consisting of 18 postures, some repeted in more thn one variety.

The other is from Mantis, but appears to be a more reacent creation and is 18 sets of 3 moving Qi Gong exercises. I'm trying to narrow it down to versions most like the original, but I can't find any video or cd source of the set, only Yi Jin Jing and Xui Xue Jing. Theres lots of those.

[Michaelwalter77]

If you go to cmaod.com they have an 18 lohan hands vcd this is the origonal set that the others are derived from it is explosive and easy to learn. Wushu/Qigong mag also did an article with DeRu (Shawn Liu) that demonstrated the set you can go to their website and check back issues it was about a year ago.

[Royal Dragon]

COOL!! Checking it out now, thanks!

[Michaelwalter77]

I have the vcd and the mags. If you have trouble let me know and I will see if i can find them and give you more detail.

[oasis]

michael,
the de ru article you mention refers to the lohan martial set, which royal dragon seems to be aware of according to his first post. however, he's looking for the lohan qigong. nonetheless, rd, if you are interested in seeing a slightly different variation of that set (b/c there are several roads at songshan shaolin), just drop me a pm or see the de yang clip at russbo. de yang taught a similar version at my school, and we were taught that it is supposed to be one of the oldest forms, so i dont know if songshan still has an 18 hands qigong set like nonshaolin schools do.

also, rd, aboutshaolin (must login) has this (http://www.aboutshaolin.com/more.php?id=114_0_1_0_M)
on what lohan shibashou is at songshan, though it differs from my forms.

[Royal Dragon]

It says I have to be a "Level 6" to access the articals on that site :confused:

[Royal Dragon]

The site does not have much of an explanation of the set. It it a moving set, or do you hold the postures?

It's interestingly simple. I though it would be more like the Choy Lay Fut version.

[Michaelwalter77]

That site is great. Just go through the registration process and respond to theie e-mails. You will be a level 6 in a day or two.

[JAZA]

CLF supbakluohansao is not static but dynamic.

[Royal Dragon]

The one I was shown is just holding each posture of the set for periods of times starting about 30 second each, to as much as 10 minutes each posture. The only movement was the brief transition between postures.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I am well versed on the Lohan system and its history.

All the lohan named forms in any southern chinese martial art style are from after 1644 and often they are named in HONOR of the 18 lohan, not cause they are derived from the original Shaolin Lohan forms. Most of the southern Lohan comes from the Five Ancestors style of south china.

The 18 Lohan Chi Gung of Northern Seven Star Mantis was also designed relatively recently and also in honor of the 18 lohan, but it is a chi-gung form that they developed based on some sound ideas.

The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.
And it did not come from Damo, that's fake story.

There are various lohan forms from Shaolin that are way over 1,000 years old. These are martial arts forms, they are the
18 Lohan Fists form.
the Xiao Lohan
the Da Lohan (which is almost forgotten now in Shaolin there are like 3 people that know it all the way through)
the 18 Lohan Hands forms ( a series of short forms).
The Lao Jia Lohan (a lost form)
and some other ones.

The Lohan style is one of the first forms from Shaolin, it was developed by mixing Shuai Jiao with boxing. All the moves can be done as takedowns or as boxing, but nowadays only a few people know the takedowns, but they are easier to discipher of you know Shuai Jiao.
The other oldest Shaolin form is the Xin Yi Bar, which is based on farming moves and the moves of the local farm and wild animals.
It is a root form to modern Xin Yi Quan and Xingy Yi Quan.
Next came the Pao Quan forms, fully developed by the Tang Dynasty.

[Royal Dragon]

The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.

Reply]
Interesting. Can you describe and name the original Louhan Qi Gongs?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.

Reply]
Interesting. Can you describe and name the original Louhan Qi Gongs?

Well, its not really a real thing that can be named because there is only really the Yi Jin Jing and people rename it Lohan Qi Gong, the Muscle Tendon Changing / Brain Bone Marrow Cleansing Qi Gongs are the Lohan Qi Gong.
In essence they are Lohan (just cause so far back in time in Shaolin there was nothing else but the Lohan style and these primitive Qi Gongs).

There is no "original" Lohan Qi Gongs to name.
It's just these various early Shaolin Qi Gongs that really only existed. Anything derived from them other styles have called Lohan Qi Gongs.

When you do the original 18 Lohan Fists form, and probably also the other Lohan forms, you automatically are doing the Muscle Tendon Changing / Brain - Bone Marrow Cleansing Qi Gongs, they are combined with the moves of the forms, they are embedded into the moves, if you do the movements with the CORRECT body mechanics and breathing methods, you are indeed doing those Qi Gongs simultaneously.

Even the great Sun Lun Tang has said this in his notes, and according to him this is why there is a Shaolin root to Xing Yi and Ba Qua, because these styles borrowed these moves into their styles in order to embed these Qi Gongs into their styles. And also because these Qi Gongs were developed with Taoists ideas in them, these styles can be linked to Nei Jia Quan as well.
Taoists claim the developed these Qi Gongs first.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. That would explain why I can't seem to find much on a Qi Gong specifically called the 18 Louhan hands.

I have Xui Xue Jing, and Yi Jin Jing. Are there any more to the system, or is this pretty much it?

I guess, I'm looking to figure out and define what the early Louhan Qi Gongs are, now that I know there is no specific set "Called" Shi Ba Louhan

[David Jamieson]

Much of it is also linked to Dhyana exercises who's practice predates the origin of the Shaolin Temple itself.

Dhayana exercises were and are the physical aspects of one's well being that is associated with the spiritual cultivation derived from living the 8 fold path.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There are tons of Buddhist Qi Gongs and Taoist Qi Gongs that Shaolin incorporates.

After the Muscle / Tendon Changing and the Brain / Bone Marrow Cleansing ones, the next famous Qi Gong is the
Eight Brocade Sections, from the Song Dynasty, which is often attributed to General Yue Fei.

[richard sloan]

we have mention of a laolohan form...

the story we have is that the 18 original hands were expanded to 18 sets, and each set further contains 3 sections, and again 3 subsections.

what makes you think it is lost?

[Royal Dragon]

I am of the understanding that there were 3 Qi Gong sets originally. According to the legends I have been privy to, Yi Jin Jing, Xui Xue Jing, and Shi Ba Louhan Shou.

Yi Jin Jing is prominantly around, and so is Xui Xue Jing, however I haven't seen anything out of Song Shan Shaolin depticitng the Shi Ba Louhan Shou Qi Gong at all. In fact I can't even get a clear deffinition on what it is. Is it just another name for Yi Jin Jing and Xui Xue Jing as a system? Is it like Choy Lay Fut guys say, a posture holding Qi Gong containing 18 postures? Is it a series of 3 moving Qi Gong exercises like Mantis guys say?

My gut feeling is it was a Qi Gong set consisting of 18 postures that were held the way Yoga systems hold postures. But so far, I just don't see anything out of Song Shan Shaolin that resembles that. The only thing I see called Shi Ba Louhan Shou is a basic martial set, not a Qi Gong set.

Now, it has been sugjested that there isn't a Shi Ba Louhan shou, and it is mearly another name for Xui Xue Jing and/or Yi Jing Jing, and I am beginning to think that is the case here. Either that, or the original set is lost or evolved into something else.

Please keep in mind I'm just a Qwilow from Chicago, so I don't have access to Song Shan teachings except through those of you who have been there. I am trying to figure out the maze that is Shaolin by "remote controll", so to speak.

[Royal Dragon]

Here is a link to what the Choy Lay Fut guys say it is.

http://www.anan-do.com/images/eng_lohan.htm

Eighteen Lohan Kung is moderately dynamic and quite therapeutic. Most of the techniques, stances and postures are symmetrical, executed alternatively on both sides

When I was taught the set, I was taught 18 postures, held on each side. Mine is from a Choy Lay Fut guy, not sure what lineage, who taught me at a park in Elmwood pk back in the mid 90's

I was there doing Chung moo quan movements, and saw him there early one morning (Like 5:30 am) holding postures. We got to talking, and shortly after he taught me the set. He claimed to know the three original Qi Gong's of Da Mo, but any attempt to verify even what a definition of those three sets has basically led me to confusion.

Song Shan Shaolin now has a few videos of Yi Jin Jing, and Xui Xue jing out, so those two seem pretty clear, but Shi Ba Louhan shou is a jumble of things. I am stil trying to find independant confirmation that what I do is it, or just something more reacent that caries the name.

[mickey]

Royal Dragon,

Your 18 Lohan Kung comes from the Chan family of Choy Lay Fut. Howard Choy of Australia wrote an article about the form in Inside Kung Fu back in the 80's, when it was a good mag to read.

mickey

[mantis108]

I have been following these threads about Shaolin, Luohan, and such things. I must say that I am inclined to agreed mostly with r. (Shaolin). No offence but some of the information seems quite "offical press release" from the so-called Songshan Shaolin "lineage". I said offical because there seem to have a lot of the "party" direction or rather influence. Anyway, back to thread.

<<<I am well versed on the Lohan system and its history.>>>

Glad to hear this. I am looking forward for the expertise.

<<<All the lohan named forms in any southern chinese martial art style are from after 1644 and often they are named in HONOR of the 18 lohan, not cause they are derived from the original Shaolin Lohan forms. Most of the southern Lohan comes from the Five Ancestors style of south china.>>>

I am curious as to the theory behind this. Why of all things 18 Lohan? I have my theory on this but I would love to hear yours.

<<<The 18 Lohan Chi Gung of Northern Seven Star Mantis was also designed relatively recently and also in honor of the 18 lohan, but it is a chi-gung form that they developed based on some sound ideas.>>>

the mantis 18 Luohan is based on a manuscript by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren, who said he learned it from Fu Ju. It is also a part of 18 Luohan Duanda (Short strikes of 18 Arhat). Personally, I am in agreement with some Mainland scholars that that particular manuscripts could have been a hoax especially the 18 styles stories. It is rather a rearranging of a few Ming dynasty MA works. Having said that it doesn't mean that there is little to no value with the maunscript. I believe that it borrowed heavily from some branch of Tongbi (through the arm) and Pigua. BTW, Tongbi as a term seems to be a late Ming early Qing convention. There are also a lot of variations of this manuscript floating around as well.

I am also curious as to what sound ideas are you referring to? You just peaked my interest.

<<<The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.
And it did not come from Damo, that's fake story.>>>

I don't practice this so I have no comment.

<<<There are various lohan forms from Shaolin that are way over 1,000 years old. These are martial arts forms, they are the
18 Lohan Fists form.
the Xiao Lohan
the Da Lohan (which is almost forgotten now in Shaolin there are like 3 people that know it all the way through)
the 18 Lohan Hands forms ( a series of short forms).
The Lao Jia Lohan (a lost form)
and some other ones.>>>

Well, I thought that long forms 10 - 20 moves plus are a relatively modern thing. I don't know. No offence, this claim is really to me stretching it quite a bit.

<<<The Lohan style is one of the first forms from Shaolin, it was developed by mixing Shuai Jiao with boxing. All the moves can be done as takedowns or as boxing, but nowadays only a few people know the takedowns, but they are easier to discipher of you know Shuai Jiao.>>>

I am curious as to which boxing would this be? What is the frame work or structure is used to build the luohan style? Shuai Jiao has some striking already and it is a stand alone style, is it not? why or who has this idea of mixing? Would you elaborate, please?

Thank you for sheding lights on these matters.

Regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Phew, here's my response to your questions, thanks:

Why the 18 Lohan mentions in Southern Shaoin?
Lohan pretty much died out after Jue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng developing what later became known as the Five Animals style. (there are some lineages that arise from Shaolin in the Henan area that continued their practice of Shaolin Lohan and when their forms are compared to those still done as traditional style Shaolin forms they are pretty darn close to exact.)
All the people who are recorded as being students of Jue Yuan and students of students eventually trace to people who moved to southern china and helped develop the Southern Shaolin Styles, like Choy gar, Li Gar, etc., especially Choy Gar. The earliest ancestor to Choy gar stayed at Shaolin after the Ming lost to the Ching, he was an army officer, an uncle of the Ming Emperor, hid out there and eventually moved south when it got too hot to stay.

Now these styles that developed in the south continued their oral teaching that their Five Animals style came from Lohan originally, hence someone somewhere in their lineage coming up with their idea of what a lohan form was like, especially if they saw Five Ancestor's style of the south do the Lohan forms within their system.
Maybe Choy Gar (and hence Choy Li Fut style) indeed did pass on a 18 Lohan form from Jue Yuan's time, I have to still compare their moves to the ancient 18 Lohan forms.
what I saw at the website looks like Ca-ca though.
Did you know that originally, in their early days, the Hung gar style taught a form called Xiao Lohan? This surely must have come from Henan Shaolin originally, cause some of of the two oldest more reverered and passed on form from teacher to teacher through the centuries has been the Xiao and the Da Lohan forms, which are nearly forgotten in their original lengths and moves today in Shaolin.

Well, Lohan is essentially Shuai Jiao, like I mentioned before, I can do whole forms as Shuai Jiao takedowns in the exact same sequence of moves instead of as punches and kicks and they jib perfectly, just different why to feel out the applications to these moves in the forms. Also, many of the moves in the Lohan forms are tong bei quan moves, which though not called that, are ancient techniques that go back thousands of years in China and are based on sword fighting movements as hand fighting movements. By boxing, I meant that they moves from Shuai Jiao and Tung Bei were done as boxing style moves, by these ancient people, why? for fun. or cause they forgot the non boxing applications of the moves in the forms.

So, of course there is value in the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong form, why not? Long as it is based on true Mantis (tong bei meets Tai Tzu Quan) ideas. I have a copy here of the old hand drawn manuscript (by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren?) that the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong is based on, and it is obviously the Muscle Tendon Changing and the Eight Section Brocade moves. And the hand drawn book looks like just like every book I have that comes from the Ching Dynasty. The Mantis version just "mantisized" the moves a lot, but its still just really the moves from those two well known exercises, nothing mysterious.
If you are looking for the real Lohan from ancient times, it's not like that Choy Li Fut thing, exept in some shallow surface looking way.
I know the ancient 18 Lohan Fists form like the back of my hand and it is not anything like the moves in either of those Qi Gong forms. In the 18 Lohan Fists, I can clearly see the old qi Shaolin Qi Gongs, and I can feel them in the moves, when correctly executed the muscles of my body spiral around my bones and my tendon coil and uncoil like a spring.

The original Da Lohan that goes way back to pre-song dynasty is 108 moves, if you do all the subforms of this form. You think that 20 moves are long forms? All the short forms I know are at least 30-40 moves, they feel really short to me (Lien Wuan, Xiao Hong Quan, Tai Tzi Quan, Lien Bu, etc).

Also, there is a form in Mantis called 18 "ancients" Quan or something like that.
Well, if I look at the form, the 18 Lohan Fists form that I know is hidden inside it, all the moves are done in the same order, just "mantisized".
So, that is something weird but it must be a clue, yes?

[JAZA]

Sal,

Who gives you the authority to say that the form you know predates CLF 18 luohan.

I'm not an expert, just a bad practitioner, but I'm sure this version is as original as any other from the Shaolin tradition can be.

The CLF tradition says that this form is the extended version of Bak Juk Fung that was taught to Chan Heung by Choy Fook. The Choy of CLF is in honor to Choy Fook, it is not related to Choy Gar.

The images in the website are doing with soft jing in higher postures.
You can see images of this form in this site too: http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html

This form is simmetrical, a trademark of Shaolin, and can be done with different expressions of jing.

This form is based in the san bao, in conjuction with siu and dai lohan develops the jing, chi and shen.

Peace

[Royal Dragon]

Mickey,

Thanks for the lineage info. I was never told where it came from when i learned it. I only know the guy did Choy Lay Fut.


http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html


The above is pretty much my 18 Louhan exactly.

[mantis108]

<<<Phew, here's my response to your questions, thanks:>>>

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries. I really appreciate that. :)

<<<Why the 18 Lohan mentions in Southern Shaoin?
Lohan pretty much died out after Jue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng developing what later became known as the Five Animals style. (there are some lineages that arise from Shaolin in the Henan area that continued their practice of Shaolin Lohan and when their forms are compared to those still done as traditional style Shaolin forms they are pretty darn close to exact.)
All the people who are recorded as being students of Jue Yuan and students of students eventually trace to people who moved to southern china and helped develop the Southern Shaolin Styles, like Choy gar, Li Gar, etc., especially Choy Gar. The earliest ancestor to Choy gar stayed at Shaolin after the Ming lost to the Ching, he was an army officer, an uncle of the Ming Emperor, hid out there and eventually moved south when it got too hot to stay.>>>

I think I begin to get a sense of your perspective. Personally, I believe it is a daunting task to try to reconcile both northern and southern records especially there are plenty of "oral traditions" floating around. It would seem that you alluded to the Tien Di Hui story as well as southern Shaolin legends as welll. BTW, I think your position on the Northern Shaolin is inline with most government approved publications. That's very interesting. In a way, we are somewhat on similar wave length when dealing with the Tien Di Hui and Southern Shaolin.

<<<Now these styles that developed in the south continued their oral teaching that their Five Animals style came from Lohan originally, hence someone somewhere in their lineage coming up with their idea of what a lohan form was like, especially if they saw Five Ancestor's style of the south do the Lohan forms within their system.>>>

I would caution that this is rather generalized and perhaps a bit narrow focused in the Shaolin perspective. I do think that secret societies (ie Tien Di Hui) and cults (ie White Lotus) played a rather crucial part in the development of Southern "Shaolin" Kung Fu. Shaolin might just be a front in some cases to camouflage the intentions and identities of the rebellions.

<<<Maybe Choy Gar (and hence Choy Li Fut style) indeed did pass on a 18 Lohan form from Jue Yuan's time, I have to still compare their moves to the ancient 18 Lohan forms.
what I saw at the website looks like Ca-ca though.>>>

Um... there is Choy Gar, a particular southern style and there is the Choy Gar in CLF. I think they are not the one and the same if I am not mistaken. I am not too familar with CLF but it would be interesting to know if Choy Fook is the same person as Tien Di Hui's Choy Duk Ying. I don't believe they are the same person. But I could be wrong.

<<<Did you know that originally, in their early days, the Hung gar style taught a form called Xiao Lohan?>>>

He's another problem. Hung Gar, that's from Chi Sim to Hung Hey Koon, IMHO could have been a spin off of Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun), which was the original Fujian White Crane. I am not sure if Hung Hey Koon passed down actual luohan form in his lines. His other Sihingdei though had luohan form that Hung students such as Lam Sai Wing might have picked up and subsequantly included in the famous Fu Hok Seung Ying.

<<<This surely must have come from Henan Shaolin originally, cause some of of the two oldest more reverered and passed on form from teacher to teacher through the centuries has been the Xiao and the Da Lohan forms, which are nearly forgotten in their original lengths and moves today in Shaolin.>>>

I am not family with that. So I can't comment on it. :( Interesting info though. Thanks

<<<Well, Lohan is essentially Shuai Jiao, like I mentioned before, I can do whole forms as Shuai Jiao takedowns in the exact same sequence of moves instead of as punches and kicks and they jib perfectly, just different why to feel out the applications to these moves in the forms.>>>

This is rather hard to visualize not to mention that Shuai Jiao as it is known today do not use forms or long patterns as their training methodology. So it's hard to imagine Shuai Jiao is one and the same as Luohan. It could be said that there are Shuai elements in Luohan but it's just too hard to link the 2 "systems" together for me. Now even Shuai elements don't have to come from Shuai Jiao. Unless there are records to proof that there were Shuai Jiao people exchanged knowledge with Shaolin. Would such record exists?

<<<Also, many of the moves in the Lohan forms are tong bei quan moves, which though not called that, are ancient techniques that go back thousands of years in China and are based on sword fighting movements as hand fighting movements. By boxing, I meant that they moves from Shuai Jiao and Tung Bei were done as boxing style moves, by these ancient people, why? for fun. or cause they forgot the non boxing applications of the moves in the forms.>>>

Well, this is again very hard to believe. I am sorry but as far as I am aware Tongbi similar to Shuai Jiao didn't have long forms. Tongbi used to have 24 moves (3 sections of 8 each.) So, I am really really having a hard time to see long form based system like Luohan comes first. I might have missing something in your post somewhere. I just don't see it, sorry.

<<<So, of course there is value in the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong form, why not? Long as it is based on true Mantis (tong bei meets Tai Tzu Quan) ideas.>>>

I am not from the 7 stars Mantis lineage. I am from the Taiji/Meihwa Manits lineage. I am also the minority in not buying the story of 18 styles forming the Shandong mantis system as we know it.

<<<I have a copy here of the old hand drawn manuscript (by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren?) that the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong is based on, and it is obviously the Muscle Tendon Changing and the Eight Section Brocade moves. >>>

If you do have an old hand drawn manuscript of "Shaolin Authentics" or "Duan Da Mi Ciao" (and any varation thereof), you would indeed be a very lucky man because we would all want to get our hands on it. When you say copy this wouldn't be the one by Wong Hon Fun?

<<<And the hand drawn book looks like just like every book I have that comes from the Ching Dynasty. The Mantis version just "mantisized" the moves a lot, but its still just really the moves from those two well known exercises, nothing mysterious.>>>

I agreed nothing mysterious but I am not sure about " mantisized". I have seen a few versions and practice one of the 18 Luohan based on the manuscript. Non of the versions that I know is "mantisized" nor there are moves from mantis in them. However, there are element that seems to share with Classical Tanglang Neigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa and San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa.

<<<If you are looking for the real Lohan from ancient times, it's not like that Choy Li Fut thing, exept in some shallow surface looking way.>>>

I am just curious as to how it can be proven there was a "real Luohan" form from ancient time? What prompted you to come to that conclusion? That's really fascination.

<<<I know the ancient 18 Lohan Fists form like the back of my hand and it is not anything like the moves in either of those Qi Gong forms. In the 18 Lohan Fists, I can clearly see the old qi Shaolin Qi Gongs, and I can feel them in the moves, when correctly executed the muscles of my body spiral around my bones and my tendon coil and uncoil like a spring.>>>

Thank you for sharing the insight. I wish there is a visual to get the gist of what you are saying.

<<<The original Da Lohan that goes way back to pre-song dynasty is 108 moves, if you do all the subforms of this form.>>>

How do you come to this conclusion of such a long form exist pre-Song dynasty?

<<<You think that 20 moves are long forms? All the short forms I know are at least 30-40 moves, they feel really short to me (Lien Wuan, Xiao Hong Quan, Tai Tzi Quan, Lien Bu, etc).>>>

Xingyi is said to be living fossil of Song dynasty martial arts. It's contain no long patterned forms but indivdual moves. Granted they would link the 5 fists and 12 animals to a "form" but that's not particularly long more than 50 moves. A full length of 108 moves form pre dating Song is very hard to believe. But that's perhaps my ignorence?

<<<Also, there is a form in Mantis called 18 "ancients" Quan or something like that.>>>

That is within the 7 star Mantis tradition. It has more to do with the 18 styles story that about Luohan I believe.

<<<Well, if I look at the form, the 18 Lohan Fists form that I know is hidden inside it, all the moves are done in the same order, just "mantisized".>>>

Really? I am sure the 7 star Mantis people would be happy to hear that. I am not from the 7 star lineage so I would reserve my comments on that.

<<<So, that is something weird but it must be a clue, yes?>>>

It's very interesing indeed. Could be very useful to the 7 star lines. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by JAZA
Sal,

Who gives you the authority to say that the form you know predates CLF 18 luohan.

I'm not an expert, just a bad practitioner, but I'm sure this version is as original as any other from the Shaolin tradition can be.

The CLF tradition says that this form is the extended version of Bak Juk Fung that was taught to Chan Heung by Choy Fook. The Choy of CLF is in honor to Choy Fook, it is not related to Choy Gar.

The images in the website are doing with soft jing in higher postures.
You can see images of this form in this site too: http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html

This form is simmetrical, a trademark of Shaolin, and can be done with different expressions of jing.

This form is based in the san bao, in conjuction with siu and dai lohan develops the jing, chi and shen.

Peace

Well, the form looks a lot better at this website you gave than at the other website. I meant no offense against the style or the form itself, just how it looked at that first website cited. I'm not in any way saying that the form itself is not valid or not authentic nor not "old".

But I have to say, without malice, that the Lohan Qi Gong and the Xiao and Da Lohan forms and so on shown and described on this site you just cited are very different from any nothern Shaolin Lohan forms. It would be interesting to trace how they came about to exist and how it got from one place to another.

The 18 Lohan forms that I and others know are almost 2,000 years old, like most of the original Lohan forms. That has been well documented and well perserved in Shaolin both within and outside the temple. Lohan are the oldest Shaolin forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by mantis108
<<<First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries. I really appreciate that. :)>>>

No problem, thanks for the discussion.

<<< I think I begin to get a sense of your perspective. Personally, I believe it is a daunting task to try to reconcile both northern and southern records especially there are plenty of "oral traditions" floating around. It would seem that you alluded to the Tien Di Hui story as well as southern Shaolin legends as welll. BTW, I think your position on the Northern Shaolin is inline with most government approved publications. That's very interesting. In a way, we are somewhat on similar wave length when dealing with the Tien Di Hui and Southern Shaolin. >>>

Ha, that would be very daunting! It is very hard to see how the north and south really transitioned.

But how is my position in line with most gov't approved stuff? Mostly every article I have written has been at odds with any official versions. I'm pretty much of the opinion that almost every story about KF histry that is "official" is full of baloney.

<<<I would caution that this is rather generalized and perhaps a bit narrow focused in the Shaolin perspective. I do think that secret societies (ie Tien Di Hui) and cults (ie White Lotus) played a rather crucial part in the development of Southern "Shaolin" Kung Fu. Shaolin might just be a front in some cases to camouflage the intentions and identities of the rebellions. >>>

Yes, I agree, Shaolin more than likely a front for these southern rebel organizations.

<<<Um... there is Choy Gar, a particular southern style and there is the Choy Gar in CLF. I think they are not the one and the same if I am not mistaken. I am not too familar with CLF but it would be interesting to know if Choy Fook is the same person as Tien Di Hui's Choy Duk Ying. I don't believe they are the same person. But I could be wrong. >>>

I know that, sorry, I didn't make it clear which Choy I was talking about. I have some scraps of info here somewhere about a Choy ancestor being an officer in the Ming Army and hiding out at Shaolin and then eventually going south.
In Cantonese there is a mention of first a Chau Jeut Yee
and then a Chau Jeit Yee, that they were from the north originally. These are not the same at all in relation to the other Choy Gar of the south.


<<<He's another problem. Hung Gar, that's from Chi Sim to Hung Hey Koon, IMHO could have been a spin off of Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun), which was the original Fujian White Crane. I am not sure if Hung Hey Koon passed down actual luohan form in his lines. His other Sihingdei though had luohan form that Hung students such as Lam Sai Wing might have picked up and subsequantly included in the famous Fu Hok Seung Ying.>>>

Well, what I have is a transcript I was given of a Hong Men Hall record hundreds of years old that lists the forms being taught as part of the early hung gar system, and the first form listed is Xiao Lohan, which really surprised me!

<<<This is rather hard to visualize not to mention that Shuai Jiao as it is known today do not use forms or long patterns as their training methodology. So it's hard to imagine Shuai Jiao is one and the same as Luohan. It could be said that there are Shuai elements in Luohan but it's just too hard to link the 2 "systems" together for me. Now even Shuai elements don't have to come from Shuai Jiao. Unless there are records to proof that there were Shuai Jiao people exchanged knowledge with Shaolin. Would such record exists?>>>

If you know Shaui Jiao and Lohan, it's easy to see this.
If I could physically show you, you would see it right away.
Shuai Jiao was immensely popular in ancient times all over China, tournaments gathered 100s of thousands of spectators. It was common for people engaged in military or bodyguard functions to know it and many other people too.

<<<Well, this is again very hard to believe. I am sorry but as far as I am aware Tongbi similar to Shuai Jiao didn't have long forms. Tongbi used to have 24 moves (3 sections of 8 each.) So, I am really really having a hard time to see long form based system like Luohan comes first. I might have missing something in your post somewhere. I just don't see it, sorry. >>>

Hmm? Yes, of course, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei are loose techniques based styles. What Lohan style did was ordered their moves into forms. They consolidated and amalgamated, like Shaolin is want to do, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei loose techniques and developed the Lohan forms, which can be practiced at various levels, from all strike based to all throws based applications.
Many forms from many styles are amalagamated from tons of loose techniques.
What often looks like a group of strikes in some forms is just the mini-moves inside one throw in Shaui Jiao.
My Shuai Jiao teacher uses 18 Lohan Fist form to teach beginners stuff, we both have analyzed the Lohan forms together to show how each move is easy to do as Shuai Jiao takedowns instead of strikes. I teach Shaui Jiao at my school that I run and I use Lohan forms to start people off after teaching the loose techniques and students are familiar enough with them to try seeing the takedowns inside forms that look like they are only striking.
I can easily take any form from any Chinese style and do the whole form as Shuai Jiao.
Shuai Jiao is the earliest root of all Chinese martial arts, every move in any form has an equivalent move in Shuai Jiao. Sure, a lot of Shuai Jiao today, like a lot of styles, is done robotic like, but not the better taught ones.

<<<I am not from the 7 stars Mantis lineage. I am from the Taiji/Meihwa Manits lineage. I am also the minority in not buying the story of 18 styles forming the Shandong mantis system as we know it. >>>

Well maybe, but as I said in a previous posting here, I have a background in anthropology and I use anthropolocial methods to trace the evolution of forms over time and place. And, for sure 7 star Mantis when analyzed boils down to mostly a mixture of Tai Tzu Quan, Han Tong tong bei, and Fan Tzi Quan. I can show you Tai Tzu Quan forms that if I didn't tell you what style it was, you would guess Mantis instead. All moves in all the mantis forms trace back to equivalent moves in these 3 styles and they are mentioned as the root styles of these "18 masters". What it looks like to me that Shandong mantis was developed as an anti-Shaolin style, as a style to counter act Shaolin styles.
So, what's your theory.


<<<If you do have an old hand drawn manuscript of "Shaolin Authentics" or "Duan Da Mi Ciao" (and any varation thereof), you would indeed be a very lucky man because we would all want to get our hands on it. When you say copy this wouldn't be the one by Wong Hon Fun?>>>
I'll have to look and see. It's just a photocopy of an old manuscript. It was published in a book, it is available if you dig around.

<<<I agreed nothing mysterious but I am not sure about " mantisized". I have seen a few versions and practice one of the 18 Luohan based on the manuscript. Non of the versions that I know is "mantisized" nor there are moves from mantis in them. However, there are element that seems to share with Classical Tanglang Neigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa and San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa. >>>

The one I saw took the moves from the old manuscript and added mantis hands to them.

<<<I am just curious as to how it can be proven there was a "real Luohan" form from ancient time? What prompted you to come to that conclusion? That's really fascination.>>>

Because of Shaolin records saying so and also from tracing the moves of the forms using anthropology techniques, which showed when the moves in the form were developed and what forms from other style borrowed from it and when.

<<<How do you come to this conclusion of such a long form exist pre-Song dynasty?>>>

I know that most pre-Song dynasty styles are mostly loose techniques, of course, sure. But the Lohan forms are known to be pretty old even just based on the line of who taught who, it goes far back to early Shaolin times. Da Hong Quan is 108 moves, its a buddhist number, but really it is because it is a bunch of small forms strung together to make one big one. The 18 Lohan Fist form is about 24 moves in length total. Xiao Lohan is a lot more, about 54 moves.

<<<Xingyi is said to be living fossil of Song dynasty martial arts. It's contain no long patterned forms but indivdual moves. Granted they would link the 5 fists and 12 animals to a "form" but that's not particularly long more than 50 moves. A full length of 108 moves form pre dating Song is very hard to believe. But that's perhaps my ignorence?>>>

See the above. Also, yeah, I agree about Xingyi, but the 5 fists are not part of the original style, the 5 fists are from Shanxi province styles, it was practiced there BEFORE Ji Long Feng went there to teach Xin Yi Liu Hu Quan.
The 12 animals is a modern form, extracted from various forms to use as a teaching device. The few truly early Xin Yi forms are very short, yes, less than 20 moves.

The only long forms that I know of that pre-date Song are the Lohan forms, which in essense are lumped together short forms, that I will conceed to you, friend. Thanks - Sal

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

I saw pictures on another forum of a 18 lohan form done by a Mantis sifu. It looked very similar to the Choy Lee Fut form.

If anyone is interested i will find it again & put a link.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, post the link!

[GeneChing]

The 18 Lohan forms that I and others know are almost 2,000 years old, like most of the original Lohan forms. That has been well documented and well perserved in Shaolin both within and outside the temple. Lohan are the oldest Shaolin forms. 2,000 years old - are you sure about that date? The earliest that I've been able to date the existence of the Lohan in Chinese culture in general is around the 7th century. They don't really become popular until the 9th or 10th. Sure, that blows the whole 18 lohan originating with Tamo theory, but we've been discussing our skepticism of Tamo elsewhere. When you look outside the martial arts into general Chinese history, a lot of our creation myths fall apart.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I allways thought Da Mo was credited with developing the Qi Gong, and later the Monks applied them to martial practice, thus creating the Louhan system.

[kai men]

Hi Sal, I fully agree with you here.
Have you ever watched Ma Kim Fong's Luohan style? I have learnt some form from my sifu Chan Kowk Wai, who was a student of Ma Kim Fong in Hong Kong.
I have never found out the origin of that style.
(by the way, I have some doubts about antiqueness of that "18 luohan form" you wrote me some time ago, I think it was standardized by Cai Lung yun)
Kindest regards
Horacio

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal, I fully agree with you here.
Have you ever watched Ma Kim Fong's Luohan style? I have learnt some form from my sifu Chan Kowk Wai, who was a student of Ma Kim Fong in Hong Kong.
I have never found out the origin of that style.
(by the way, I have some doubts about antiqueness of that "18 luohan form" you wrote me some time ago, I think it was standardized by Cai Lung yun)
Kindest regards
Horacio

Not sure if I have seen Ma Kim Fong Lohan, even so I'd like to see it.
Is it a southern KF Lohan style?

The 18 Lohan form that we are both referencing here (that Frank DeMaria teaches) had been indeed popularized in English book by Cai Lung Yun, but he didn't standardize it.
I have found two different much older books than his that are just about this form, the 8 Step Linking Form (Ba Bu Lian Wuan), and the Wind Devil Staff forms, and there is long discussion about these forms being very ancient in Shaolin (8 Step form is from Tong Bei style originally and taken in by Shaolin eventually), like the Xiao and Da Lohan forms.
AND, my teacher David Chih Young Lin, was taught this form from a lineage that is quite seperate from Cai and taught by people older than Cai Lung Yun is in age today. My teacher didn't know about Cai teaching it too, he said the form goes way back.
Also, Russ from Russbo.com showed the form on his website, but he didn't know the name of the form.

I want to know who did Cai learn it from?

[Sal Canzonieri]

2,000 years old - are you sure about that date? The earliest that I've been able to date the existence of the Lohan in Chinese culture in general is around the 7th century. They don't really become popular until the 9th or 10th. Sure, that blows the whole 18 lohan originating with Tamo theory, but we've been discussing our skepticism of Tamo elsewhere. When you look outside the martial arts into general Chinese history, a lot of our creation myths fall apart.

Well, maybe calculations wrong, but the form can exist before the Lohan were attributed to it.
Song Dynasty is from over 1,000 years ago and
the Lohan forms, not necessarily that they were called that in ancient times, are in fact the step by step moves of Shaui Jiao throws if done in combinations of moves instead of strikes, so that means the moves in the forms are from before the Tang Dynasty. And Shaolin always say that the Lohan forms are the oldest forms that they have, which makes the forms over 1,500 years old, more accurately.

[NorthernShaolin]

Sal,

Ma's Lo Han is a Northern Lo Han style.

[Shaolin Master]

There is a lot of discussion over terms such as 'original' 'oldest' most 'complete' had to be etc.........in this thread that are unjustified.

Luohan as a style or qigong has been in use for many years. To mention facts of 1000 (or worse still 2000) years ago is fairly unjustified without considering all aspects of 'luohan' such as the route of 16 and the addition of the Fuhuluohan and xianglong luohan.

as examples:
Current Songshan shaolin Luohanquan and the other 'luohan' forms such as the 18 luohan hands series, luohan palms etc are like most current shaolin sets/forms based on Xiao/Da hongquan since the real practitioner of that particular branch was Miaoxing (that happened to dy during the battles earleir).

There is the Luohan Men (Luohan Division) which is one of the major styles arising from the Qing dynasty shaolin Weituo pai.

Another northern luohan style is represented by Luohan Shen Da as taught to the famous Wan Laisheng.

Fujian has its own Luohan style characteristic to region

Singapore/Malaysia also has their Luohan.......etc.......

In terms of qigong and finding the original something again this is futile since the aims are simple to promote good health, longevity and improved martial skill etc.... to own or claim, to adhere or cling to a thing or set of routines/methods as 'original' luohan or other would go against the term of 'Luohan' in the first place.

Oh, and all chinese martial arts have elements of striking, throwing (Shuaijiao), locking, etc........within. It is the practitioner or socalled master who failed in their learning to emphasise only one.

Also, principles of Tongbeiquan would be in contradiction to luohan as practiced by songshan shaolin today.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[kai men]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

[Sal Canzonieri]

I agree that all the Lohan (and other) forms done today at Shaolin are basically modern forms, Ching Dynasty or later even.

But, your comment about Tong Bei, well for sure Tong Bei influenced most early martial arts in China, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei were all pervasive for a really long span of time during the development of Chinese martial arts.
They both go way, way back. And, in essence, yes, are a method within the forms. You can make any form into Shuai Jiao if you know how, and
Tong Bei is also Long Fist/Sword play techniques that are build in to the moves of most forms. Really, if you take an empty hand form and do it as a sword form, you are using Tong Bei ideas, which became Long Fist ideas. So, saying Tong Bei is essentially saying Long Fist, and the Long Fist ideas came from Sword play and Tong Bei from way back in Sun Tzu's time they were mentioning Tong Bei, with Quai Gu Tzu being a teacher of this style way back then.

The 18 Lohan form I am talking about is considered both inside and outside of Shaolin to be amongst its oldest forms (along with Xiao and Da Lohan, and later Xiao and Da Hong Quan). From what year/era/dynasty exactly, who knows? But judging from the moves in the 18 Lohan form I specifically am talking about (which you can't see since this is just words I am typing),
they are strongly related to the more ancient Chinese martial arts.

All these Lohan styles that you mention are all much newer than the old Shaolin 18 Lohan form I am speaking of. This old 18 Lohan looks nothing like any newer Shoalin Lohan form.
Indeed the newer Ching Dynasty Shaolin forms are very different and
almost all of these newer forms look and act related to each other and to me they are all variations of the same thing.


There is a lot of discussion over terms such as 'original' 'oldest' most 'complete' had to be etc.........in this thread that are unjustified.

Luohan as a style or qigong has been in use for many years. To mention facts of 1000 (or worse still 2000) years ago is fairly unjustified without considering all aspects of 'luohan' such as the route of 16 and the addition of the Fuhuluohan and xianglong luohan.

as examples:
Current Songshan shaolin Luohanquan and the other 'luohan' forms such as the 18 luohan hands series, luohan palms etc are like most current shaolin sets/forms based on Xiao/Da hongquan since the real practitioner of that particular branch was Miaoxing (that happened to dy during the battles earleir).

There is the Luohan Men (Luohan Division) which is one of the major styles arising from the Qing dynasty shaolin Weituo pai.

Another northern luohan style is represented by Luohan Shen Da as taught to the famous Wan Laisheng.

Fujian has its own Luohan style characteristic to region

Singapore/Malaysia also has their Luohan.......etc.......

In terms of qigong and finding the original something again this is futile since the aims are simple to promote good health, longevity and improved martial skill etc.... to own or claim, to adhere or cling to a thing or set of routines/methods as 'original' luohan or other would go against the term of 'Luohan' in the first place.

Oh, and all chinese martial arts have elements of striking, throwing (Shuaijiao), locking, etc........within. It is the practitioner or socalled master who failed in their learning to emphasise only one.

Also, principles of Tongbeiquan would be in contradiction to luohan as practiced by songshan shaolin today.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

Well I would love to see these forms, I feel that I have seen them once somewhere on a tape that I have. You have my email address so sure if you would be so kind as to provide me some materials to review, I would be most happy, my friend.

I have a tape of you doing the 18 Lohan Form that I am talking about.
If you just do the form without analyzing the movements, it is just a hard/soft Shaolin form. But if you look at the sequence of movements
deeper you will find that the first row is the Five Elements in the ancient order: Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pau, and Heng.
Also all the moves from the beginning to end are also found in the 10 big shapes and the Small Shapes animal forms of Xin Yi (and later with more changes in technique found in Xing Yi).

I've been doing Lohan, Xing Yi, Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, etc for the last 15 years and when you know all these styles you start realizing when you are doing the forms that you did the moves in that same sequence before in another form.
That's what sparked all the research.

I have found the moves from this 18 Lohan form embedded in the forms of other styles as well (but done with the jings, body mechanics, etc of that other style). So, this form must have been very important to preserve and
must be very old and must be something that the founders of these forms must have had intimate knowledge of.
I have found the moves buried in the 18 Ancients form of 7 Star Mantis, in the
Ba Ji - Pi Qua form (from Wu Tang school), in a Cha Quan form, and in other styles (Ba Qua, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, etc).

So, something is very important about this form, eh?

I use anthropological research techniques (I have a degree in that) to uncover the signature moves in forms and trace them like pottery designs are traced from region to region, era to era, person to person.

It's a vast puzzle that has many interconnections.
My research is tying in all these styles as being connected to one another in this order:
Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, Shaolin 18 Lohan and Xin Yi Bar and Pao Chuoi forms, Tai Tzu Quan/Hong Quan, Fantzi, Yue Fei Jia Quan/Lie Ho Quan, Northern Mantis, Eagle Claw, Chen Tai Ji, Yang Tai Ji, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, Yin Ba Qua and eventually Sun style Ba Qua and Xing Yi.

They all have Shuai Jiao/ Tong Bei as their deep roots, the Shaolin forms as the skeleton that their forms hang on as the main trunk, and then
from Tai Tzu and Fantzi come next as the main branches, and from there come all the seperate branches from this tree: Mantis, Yue Fei, Eagle Claw, Chen and Yang Tai Chi (I'm not worrying about their offshoots), Xin Yi/XingYi, and Ba Qua.

There are moves, at least 50 to 100, that are in common with all these styles, that are not found in styles outside of this tree.
Sun Lu Tang understood this and alluded to this in his books.

(the Wu Dong internal styles I think had some contact with this tree when it was a sapling. Many say that Yang style tai Chi has moves found in the Wu Dong internal styles, but I can find ALL these some moves spoken of
inside the root styles that I have mentioned that Yang Lu Chan easily could have learned either from his Hong Quan background or from Chen tai ji.)

If I could show you all what I am talking about, then you would easily see what I am talking about.

Hmm, topic for an article, it's big enough to do a book on really.
I can give seminar on this all if anyone wants to come to NJ.

Sal

[GeneChing]

I must be slipping. It's been so busy around here.

We ran Shawn Liu's (Deru) version of Songshan Luohan Shi Ba Shou in our NOV 98 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=87). I also did a four-article series on Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan (performed by Shi Guolin) that started in our July Aug 2001 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138) and concluded (quite appropriately) in our Jan Feb 2002 (Shaolin Special) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144).

I learned Xiao Luohan initially from Shi Yanming in a one-day seminar. It didn't stick really, nor did I continue to work on it, but I had to relearn it to work out that article series. I learned Da Luohan from Shi Decheng in '98 at Shaolin. I'm pretty rusty on that too - there was a movement in the begining that I never resolved and the end pattern is a bit messed up in my mind. Neither form is in rotation as part of my regimen anymore sadly. I enjoyed both forms immensily - nice energy flow and some fine applications - but things fall to the wayside and those two were some of those things.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

So, Horatio, this 18 Lohan form, both sides, is out on VCD by the Wah Quan lineage.
Seems that this form came from or to Shaolin by the Yuan Dynasty, around time of MOnk Jue Yuan (who reorganized Shaolin Lohan into Animals system).

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have yet to see correct info about Lohan forms anywhere.
Especially if Shaolin is the source of the data, it appears wrong all the time.
Their books, vcds, etc are all wrong. (pardon any mispellings).

There are in reality only these Shaolin Lohan forms that can still be found.

- Shaolin 18 Hands Forms Roads 1 to 9 (Shaolin Shi Ba Shaou)
- Shaolin 18 Fist form (Shi Ba Quan)
- Small 18 Hands form (Xiao Shi Ba Shaou) (Might be more modern)
- Small Lohan (Xiao Lohan Quan)
- 2nd Road Small Lohan (Er Lu Xiao Lohan Quan)
- Large Lohan (Da Lohan)
- 2nd Route or Refined Lohan (Er Lu Lohan Quan)

(there is also a Lohan Duan Da and a Lao - ancient Lohan forms)

Okay, so that's about all of them that came out of Shaolin in the last 1,500 years.

1. The Shaolin Encyclopdia, the Shaolin Da Quan, Volume 2, shows 9 Roads (Da Lu) of a form called 18 Hands of Lohan. Road 9 is the oldest road, it comes to Shaolin from the Wah Quan style, back in the Yuan Dynasty period. It is the one made known in the book by Cai Long Yun, the 24 move, 2 person form and two other Shaolin forms books. So, is it out of sequence?

2. The Shaolin Encyclopedia Volume 2 also shows a form on page 188, called Shaolin Lohan Quan, but in actuality everywhere else this form is ONLY THE FIRST SECTION Of the real Shaolin DA LOHAN FORM. it's only a piece of the big Lohan form, the first 29 moves. And sometimes this form is called the Xiao, the small lohan, but that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

3. Shaolin Encyclopedia Volume 2, page 194, what they call the Er Lu Lo Han form, but it in actuality is known most places as the real XIAO LOHAN form, except the version shown in vol 2 is the longest version of the form seen anywhere else. So, the name of the form is wrong, but the fact that it has all the moves that are often missing everywhere else is good.

4. In Volume 2 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 198, they show the correct Xiao Lohan Quan form, but it is missing the end section of the form (which is shown in the Er Lu Quan form in Shaolin Ency, volume 2 ).

5. The VCD BEB-844, Shaolin Lohan Quan, in actuality shows the form XIAO lohan quan, pretty much as shown in Volume 2 of Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 198.

6. In Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, the correct version of the real ER LU LOHAN Quan form, shown on page 293.

This form is incorrectly labeled as Lohan Quan form in the book Shaolin Chuan Tong Wu Shu Pu Ji Jiao Cai, Shaolin Quan volume, page 101. recently published.

7. Now, the VCD Shaolin Da Lo Han Quan, VW526-7, Chinese Kungu Wu Shu series
is really in actuality really the ER LU Lohan Quan Form, as shown exactly in Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School in Henan.

8. The VCD, BWS-226, Er Lu Lohan Quan, Chinese KungFu Series, shows the correct Er Lu form, as shown in Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms.

9. Also, the VCD, BWS-166-07 Shaolin Lohan Quan is actually the Er Lu Lohan form (not so great).

10. In Volume 3 of the book Shaolin Gong - Fu - A Course in Traditional Forms, by the Ta Gou School, on page 507, there is a form there correctly called Da Lohan Quan, but it is only 3/4th of the form.

11. The rest of the form is found in a book called Shaolin Shi ? Da Lu, ISBN 5349-1753-0, starting on page 296. Between the two books, the most complete version known so far of Da Lohan Quan can be put together, if a side by side comparison is done. I have done so.

12. In the book called Shaolin Shi ? Da Lu, ISBN 5349-1753-0, starting on page 256, is a form that they call Shaolin Lohan 18 HANDS, that they attribute to Li Shu, during the Yuan Dynasty. I have never seen this particular Lohan 18 Hands form anywhere else before. It looks nothing like anything I have ever seen.
(By the way, this same book shows the long lost Yi, Er, and San Lu forms of the Da Hong Quan forms, NOT the one that is currently taught at Shaolin, but the Da Hong Quan forms that match in style with the Xiao Hong Quan form everyone know, the one that is linked to the Tai Tzu Chang Quan form taught in Shaolin.)

13. The VCD VW522-7, Old Frame Hammering Series, 18 Hands of the Small Arhat (lohan) Boxing shows a very short 18 Hands form that doesn;t match anything I have seen anywhere else. IT is not one of the ones shown in roads 1 to 9 in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, but it is kinda close to Road 1 in that book. It is a mystery what form this very short form really is. Is it really a new training form? An abbreviated Road 1 of the 18 Hands of the Lohan?

14. Also, this VCD is a little bit close to the form called Lohan 18 hands on page 1 in the book Shaolin Chuan Tong Wu Shu Pu Ji Jiao Cai, Shaolin Quan volume and to the form called 18 Hands Route 1 in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. Between these two books, these two forms match, but the end of the form is slightly out of sequence from each other (moves are in reverse order at the end).

15. The VCD VW522-6, the Small Arhat (Lohan) Boxing, Old Frame Hammering series, shows a Lohan form that doesn't match up to what is really considered the Xiao Lohan form in correct sources. It is a mystery what form this is really.

16. The book, Shaolin Quan, volume 3, ISBN 7-81003-236-4, shows a long lost form called Er Lu Xiao Lohan Quan. it is supposed to be exactly what it is named, the second road of the real Xiao Lohan Quan form.

17. Finally, the book Shaolin Quan Wu Shu, volume 2, ISBN 7-81003-285-2, shows two forms from Lohan style, both incorrectly named. Page 38 has a form they call 18 Lohan Hands, which is the same form shown as Er Lu 18 Lohan Hands in the Shaolin Encyclopedia (the second form of the 18 Lohan hands sets). On page 47 there is a form they call Xiao Lohan Quan which is the same as the form called Lohan Quan in the Shaolin Encyclopedia, which makes it in actuality the first section of the Da Lohan Quan form, but for some reason it is called the Xiao Lohan Quan in this book.

Phew!!!!!

Anyone else care to make a stab at this?

[Sal Canzonieri]

I must be slipping. It's been so busy around here.

We ran Shawn Liu's (Deru) version of Songshan Luohan Shi Ba Shou in our NOV 98 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=87). I also did a four-article series on Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan (performed by Shi Guolin) that started in our July Aug 2001 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138) and concluded (quite appropriately) in our Jan Feb 2002 (Shaolin Special) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144).

I learned Xiao Luohan initially from Shi Yanming in a one-day seminar. It didn't stick really, nor did I continue to work on it, but I had to relearn it to work out that article series. I learned Da Luohan from Shi Decheng in '98 at Shaolin. I'm pretty rusty on that too - there was a movement in the begining that I never resolved and the end pattern is a bit messed up in my mind. Neither form is in rotation as part of my regimen anymore sadly. I enjoyed both forms immensily - nice energy flow and some fine applications - but things fall to the wayside and those two were some of those things.


According to my calculations, the form shown in the 1998 issue is Road One (or first form) of the 18 Lohan Hand forms, there are 9 Roads shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

The form in the 2001 issue is commonly called Xiao Lohan in Shaolin today, but it really is section one of the real 108 move Da Lohan form.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I carefully watched the VCD of the 18 Hands form mentioned above.

It looks like it IS the form shown is indeed pretty much Road One of the 18 Hands of the Lohan, as also shown in the Shaolin Encyclopedia.

The only thing is that it contains 4-5 extra moves and near the end it does the moves in a different order than the traditional way to do the form.

Weird.
Makes you wonder about all the other Shaolin forms in this VCD series (Old Frame shaoin). If they go modernizing the forms, what the point of putting out the vcds and claiming that they are the old way to do the forms?

Shaolin lately always seems associated with bull or incorrect info.

[Wong Ying Home]

can the original poster re post this question at www.emptyflower.com for the attention of Dr Kenneth Fish, he may well be able to help with a lot of information on the Lohan system. I belive he learned the complete system from a Master Wu.

might be of help

[Sal Canzonieri]

can the original poster re post this question at www.emptyflower.com for the attention of Dr Kenneth Fish, he may well be able to help with a lot of information on the Lohan system. I belive he learned the complete system from a Master Wu.

might be of help

Just did that, but I hate that site.

[Wong Ying Home]

Ok , you may hate the site, but give it a bit of time you might get some good answers