Questions about Shaolin in Denver

[Tom Christy]

Greetings all from the FNG.

I have a question or three that I would like the informed Shaolin people on this forum to help me with. For a bit of background, I am doing a little research on an individual who taught in my area for quite a few years (I am going to leave his name out since the individual is dead and therefore can’t defend himself). This individual claimed to be authorized to teach a number of Japanese and Chinese systems, one of which was Shaolin (he began teaching this at his school in the 70’s, right around the time that Carradine’s show became popular). I have enough background in the Japanese MA to be able to point out the BS there, but while I still smell something funny I don’t have enough experience with Chinese MA to call BS on these claims. Several friends of mine are still involved with his group and I like to pass along what historical corrections I can. Having said that, let me go into a few of his Shaolin claims.

1) Claimed to be a “grandmaster” of Shaolin who studied with a “Mr. Wu”, a “Mr. Chen”, and a “Mr. Yang”. (Yes, I know that these are the names of the 3 major lines of tai chi). The question is, are there any Caucasians who are recognized as legitimate “grandmasters” of Shaolin kung fu? Who would do the recognizing?

2) Actually ordained his students as Shaolin monks. Can anyone other than the abbot of the temple do this? As an aside, has there been an unbroken line of abbots at the temple, or did the line break somewhere during one of the major cleansings (such as the Cultural Revolution)?

Outside of these claims, I am wondering if someone could point out some of the recognizable characteristics of Shaolin kung fu. I have to say that the material that he taught doesn’t seem to look like any of the Chinese MA I have seen, but that is woefully insignificant. The people that I know who came out of his school are sincere enough and some are open to learning the truth about the background of what they learned there.

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts and suggestions.


Tom

[MasterKiller]

You sure this isn't a Chinese Shaolin Center school? The name Hwang The' ever come up?

[PangQuan]

Just from the things that you have told me, this does kind of sound like some phoney stuff.
1) First if he had been representing the Shaolin style here in America since the 70's there would definately be some sort of credit to his name from the Abbot of Shaolin. This is a place you can start.
2) I do not know of any caucasians who are "Grandmasters" of the Shaolin style.
3) He cannot "ordain" his students into the Shaolin Monkhood. This must take place at the temple under the Abbot or his assistants, or another recognized individual. Remember this is a religious ceremony, that WOULD take place in a temple. At which point you take vows of celebacy and remain in the temple.
4) Since Shaolin is considered to be the mother of empty hand organized styles of Kung Fu then his "Shaolin" style would definately look chinese.

Go pick up a vcd titled "The Shaolin Wheel of Life" this will probably explain a little. Make sure and watch the documentary in the extra's section.

When comunism took control of china the Shaolin was devistated leaving only 9 monks to rebuild the temple. Since that time it has built back up to hundreds of monks.

I personally study Shaolin kung fu here in Portland OR, under Sifu Tran Duy Mihn. He has made it clear that he is no longer a monk, because he left the temple. So, you see, it would be impossible for this former teacher of yours to (let alone create monks) be a monk.

[MasterKiller]

There aren't any non-Chinese Shaolin monks, as far as I know. I seem to remember Yong Xin saying that in a KFM article.

Of course, there are non-Chinese disciples like Russbo, who practice under a Shaolin monk, but that's a different apple altogether.

[PangQuan]

Ya, now that you mention it i remember that arcticle. Your right. Sorry to break it to you dude, your teacher was scammin hard.

[norther practitioner]

If you PM me some info.. I'll ask my teacher, who has been around longer than I.

[Tom Christy]

MK,

Nope, not the Shaolin Do people (although they do have a presence here in Denver). Like I stated in my first post, the gentleman in question died several years ago. Since he is no longer around and his school doesn't have a web presence, I didn't feel comfortable putting his name here since he's not able to offer any type of rebuttal.

Pang Quan,

Thanks. That pretty much sums up my instinctive reaction to the claims, but its always good to have documentation to back it up. The person in question claimed unbelievably high ranks in a whole bunch of Japanese and Chinese arts, so I figured I would dissect the claims one by one. The students of his that I still speak to seem to be coming around to the realization that they were fed a load of BS, and every piece of solid info helps. Some have already gone on to study in legitimate schools, while others still cling to the idea that their teacher was the greatest martial artist of the last century.

Thanks again to you both for your help.

Tom

[GeneChing]

has there been an unbroken line of abbots at the temple, or did the line break somewhere during one of the major cleansings (such as the Cultural Revolution)? Here's your answer (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=398) . :cool:

[Jhapa]

does the school still exist, if it does, may be you should at least tell what the name of the school is so people who are not informed and are looking for school will be informed before making that decision.

[Shaolinlueb]

nah keep the name of school to yourself. if the students are happy and such dont go ruining something.

[Tom Christy]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the additional information (and Mr. Ching, thanks for the link to the article!).

As for naming the school, I've got to admit that I've swayed back and forth on that issue. The school is still in existance and still teaches a few things, although not the amount done while the head teacher was alive. I'm always torn because on one hand I know that the people still involved with the school will continue to hand out the same old BS and sucker people with it. On the other hand, given that this is the information age and forums like this are available to anyone looking to do a little research, I feel like those that get suckered only have themselves to thank.

Sadly it seems that the MA world, regardless of country, seems to be full of hucksters. I guess by reading between the lines anyone who came here looking for info on their departed teacher would get the real scoop and look elsewhere for their training.

Thanks again,

Tom

[PangQuan]

Man, that has got to be one hard moral delima. Tell them or not? Good luck to you man. You do have a point though, they should be able to find out on their own.

[norther practitioner]

Tom, check your PMs.

[Jhapa]

but how can someone who is new the the art of kung fu or in martial arts can choose a good school when the info is not there or provided. if i had joined this forum earlier or did some more research, i wouldn't be at shaolin-do right now. people join forums like this to get more info on their current art or future endeavers.