Realism WCK power generation for the 21th century [Archive]

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
your welcome to any time i have nothing to hide ;)
can you say the same :rolleyes:

Since Oyama is sloppy for you.... :D

I thought you are going to get the World TOP fighters in K1 or Muay Thai or BJJ or BoXing .... to test your Power to make it valid!
otherwise, your comment of Mas Oyama...etc has no prof since you are not proven, right?

It is always easy to comment on the past and fear of the future isnt it?' where is the proof of your real power vesus today's top fighters? without proof I rather buying Oyama's Kyokushin story. at least he proof his power :D

As A Kyokushin, hey I join that Kyokushin open KO tournoment before so that tell me where I am. I dont need any personal test after the open test. :D

I have nothing to hide in a Kyokushin Open, and Cant hide anything. Can you say the same?:D

And I am not the one who will create those Super Wing Chun for the 21th century too. That is your JOB Bro!

In Oyama I trust. In you, sure I always will trust once you proof your power similar to Oyama. :D:D:D

now back to the topic:

Since so many enthusiast wants to define the Realism 21th century WCK.

So, what is that WCK power generation for the 21th century?

how is it? why is it the way it is? what is the process or generation? how is it fit into SNT(hopefully UDA approve ) ? how is it compare with keng geng? how to condition it? what platfrom? how is it tested? has it been tested or just an idea?

All kind of Questions for the futuristics people!

kung fu fighter

01-07-2005, 06:43 PM

Hi Hendrik,
What's the body mechanics involved with the cho family shock power striking method? is it the same as chen tai chi's "fa jing"

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Hi Hendrik,
What's the body mechanics involved with the cho family shock power striking method? is it the same as chen tai chi's "fa jing"

First, you are posting in a WRONG area. The topic of this area is Realism WCK power generation for the 21th century. :D

Nothing to do with the past.

and
I thought WCK from the red boat is from White CRane Weng Chun but not from Chen Tai Chi, no?

Ernie

01-07-2005, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Since Oyama is sloppy for you.... :D

I thought you are going to get the World TOP fighters in K1 or Muay Thai or BJJ or BoXing .... to test your Power to make it valid!
otherwise, your comment of Mas Oyama...etc has no prof since you are not proven, right?

It is always easy to comment on the past and fear of the future isnt it?' where is the proof of your real power vesus today's top fighters? without proof I rather buying Oyama's Kyokushin story. at least he proof his power :D

As A Kyokushin, hey I join that Kyokushin open KO tournoment before so that tell me where I am. I dont need any personal test after the open test. :D

I have nothing to hide in a Kyokushin Open, and Cant hide anything. Can you say the same?:D

And I am not the one who will create those Super Wing Chun for the 21th century too. That is your JOB Bro!

In Oyama I trust. In you, sure I always will trust once you proof your power similar to Oyama. :D:D:D

now back to the topic:

Since so many enthusiast wants to define the Realism 21th century WCK.

So, what is that WCK power generation for the 21th century?

how is it? why is it the way it is? what is the process or generation? how is it fit into SNT(hopefully UDA approve ) ? how is it compare with keng geng? how to condition it? what platfrom? how is it tested? has it been tested or just an idea?

All kind of Questions for the futuristics people!

--Hendrik it's not about master O or K1

it's about you and me

you say you have the magic super jing

i say cool , show me

you say i have had no one test my power

i say cool , let me show you

see real simple , not a challenge just trying clear things up

no need to run around and round when a striaght line will work ;)

ps i live to research if there is something to learn i'm all for it , but the person claiming to have this ability should be able to prove it on at least a small level don't you think

talking is easy doing now that is something else

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
--Hendrik it's not about master O or K1

it's about you and me

you say you have the magic super jing

i say cool , show me

you say i have had no one test my power

i say cool , let me show you

see real simple , not a challenge just trying clear things up

no need to run around and round when a striaght line will work ;)

ps i live to research if there is something to learn i'm all for it , but the person claiming to have this ability should be able to prove it on at least a small level don't you think

talking is easy doing now that is something else

what I learn from Mas Oyama's kyokushin way to generate power was tested thousands of time by Mas Oyama's and Kyokhushin members around the world. Isnt that enough for the proof?

You can beat me. sure. and furthermore what is that got to do with power generation?
and, that still doesnt say much about your real power right?
as you said " single incident " tested on the no body. ;)

In Mas Oyama I trust in his kyokushin way of power generation since hundred of thousand of people use it and works and Mas Oyama DOESNT have to beat me to proof his power generation work, right? :D

REAL GOOD POWER GENERATION is about a good process which can be learn and improve power generation performance who uses it. The improvement is absolute and can be measure in term of a particula person.

That process has nothing todo with who is better. But, it can make one better/improve in generate power.

ME and You is about EGO. having a good power generation process which can be described, shared, and let others train and benifit, make the weak strong and the strong even stronger is the power of the process itself beyond EGO.

We certainly has a different way of looking at power generation. Your's is the oriental SIFU way where who is going to proof it to whom. Mine is the western Coach way to investigate if the power generation process does work for everyone and let them improve themself instead of proof to anyone. nothing good or bad just different. :D:D:D

we are certainly view things differently Bro.
your point is well taken /respected and I understood where you are from.

But, I dont see thing as you do.

Ernie

01-07-2005, 08:15 PM

HEN__ what I learn from Mas Oyama's kyokushin way to generate power was tested thousands of time by Mas Oyama's and Kyokhushin members around the world. Isnt that enough for the proof?

--what people do or did around the world has nothing to do with you and me , you keep talking about jing , keng and so on , great then you must be able to do it ! great
then lets see it study it and so how you train it , just talking about it does nothing

i have no problem showing you and discussing and sharing the methods of power training i have been exposed to , what is good or bette doesn't matter it's about people growing and doing what they say they can do , this way no one is being fake or pushing a fantasy

i for one would be very excited if you could back up what you say that would be gold and i have no problem saying wow i was wrong

trust me i love being wrong that means i just grew and learned

Hen-You can beat me. sure. and furthermore what is that got to do with power generation?
and, that still doesnt say much about your real power right?
as you said " single incident " tested on the no body.

--- we are both nobodies and beating you up is the last thing on my mind hell if you can do what you say you can then i will be on the ground looking at you with a big smile on my face saying , hell ya do it again ,
it's the only way to research something you need to put yourself on the line and feel it

i'm not a competitive person , i just don't like BS it waste to much time

Hen-In Mas Oyama I trust in his kyokushin way of power generation since hundred of thousand of people use it and works and Mas Oyama does have to beat me to proof his power generation work, right?

your are not Master O , i am not Master O , that has nothing to do with anything , just two regular guys expressing training methods .

i don't claim to have the special secret lost art of super power you do

i just want to see what all the talk is about .

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

--what people do or did around the world has nothing to do with you and me , you keep talking about jing , keng and so on , great then you must be able to do it ! great
then lets see it study it and so how you train it , just talking about it does nothing

.

As I update my post above. You can see how we view things differently.

I talk about
KEng, jing ... because they are WCK's Tradition. dont we want to figure out what is what about WCK?
As I post in many post , I am trying to find out about it.

If we dont know anything about it --- what is it, the process.... but just heard those from the past generation. How one is suppose to train or does anything with it?

you make an asumption here "you keep talking about jing , keng and so on , great then you must be able to do it "

Can I make the same assumption that --- since you are a WCK sifu you certainly knows Keng Geng?

Ernie

01-07-2005, 08:34 PM

Can I make the same assumption that --- since you are a WCK sifu you certainly knows Keng Geng?

-- from my understanding of what it is YES !
my ability is still young and needs to grow but the training method , strucutre , mental intent have all been exposed to me

but perhaps what you seek is not the same

this i can not answer

but i have felt this type of power deep sharp penetrating power
in other arts and people as well

useing different mechanics

so as you i seek research and proof

i don't need it to fit the WCK label , i have no desire to preserve anything if it is not functional

i look at things more in a world and human view not country or race label

this way i can be open to research and experience with out prejudice

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
Can I make the same assumption that --- since you are a WCK sifu you certainly knows Keng Geng?

-- from my understanding of what it is YES !
my ability is still young and needs to grow but the training method , strucutre , mental intent have all been exposed to me

but perhaps what you seek is not the same

this i can not answer

but i have felt this type of power deep sharp penetrating power
in other arts and people as well

useing different mechanics

so as you i seek research and proof

i don't need it to fit the WCK label , i have no desire to preserve anything if it is not functional

i look at things more in a world and human view not country or race label

this way i can be open to research and experience with out prejudice

I can certainly understand your view. However, I like to say that there are many many different views in this world which will arrive at same destination more or less.

So, That is the important about communication and not holding one's view as the truth.

Saying that, sure I am guilty of teasing people and being assertive to. ;)

Ernie

01-07-2005, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
I can certainly understand your view. However, I like to say that there are many many different views in this world which will arrive at same destination more or less.

So, That is the important about communication and not holding one's view as the truth.

Saying that, sure I am guilty of teasing people and being assertive to. ;)

it's all good bro ;)

i find the more high skilled people i meet no matter what art or process they study or use the are more alike then different

there seems to be a more universal truth as skill and experience climb

only in the not so skilled do i find them clinging to style and technique and there way is the only way

you know what i mean

yellowpikachu

01-07-2005, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
it's all good bro ;)

i find the more high skilled people i meet no matter what art or process they study or use the are more alike then different

there seems to be a more universal truth as skill and experience climb

only in the not so skilled do i find them clinging to style and technique and there way is the only way

you know what i mean

You know, the chinese, :D old chinese again :D
has a saying, pushing forward too quick too soon cause Running the Fire and enter to the Demon state.

What this means

is

Fire is the symbolic of vigor. and fire is needed to cultivate or training. However, when the potential of fire is excessive.
That will cary one into the demon states.

State is needed in training because that is the result in today's word. However, when a state is attached forcefully /forcefully sustain. that is a problem.

A turnel vision is a demon state.
A very high self confident/ righteousness ,cant take no is a demon state.
Thinking there is only one way is a demon state...
Keep training and speed up is a demon state...

The demon state will cost one's balance in live to support a part of personal desire. and will cost others too, such as family memebers, students.... followers... culting..
These people can no longer live a normal life once get that far.

sometimes, one thinks one is clean but one is in it.... difficult to find out.

When I heard about some hongkong top martial art idol movie star died in the 1973. I heard about the comments of Running the fire into demon state from some old timer. The signature is , bad temple. cant take no.. restless... DRy up after awhile.

probably there is some truth in the ancient saying. who knows? I just present it here.

The shuranga sutra is great because it tells 50 types of examples of how different extreem of training will lead one to side track or demon state.

own the world but lost one's soul is that worthed? that is the question. Seem like a great question and view one uses to check oneself often.

Ernie

01-08-2005, 12:43 AM

i know that demon state very well :D

but i prefer to call it being passonate about something

others call it obsessive

when a person is flawed or unbalanced , great things can be achieved , from the shear force of will to find balance

when a person has found balance they slow down and lose much desire and things stall as they try to maintain the calm state

one can them be obsessed in trying to hold onto balance

like a dieing man holding onto life

no biggie we all eat $hit and turn to dust in the end :cool:

PaulH

01-08-2005, 01:08 AM

You're quite a philosophical coach, Sifu! =)

Ernie

01-08-2005, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
You're quite a philosophical coach, Sifu! =)

call me sifu eh ! well that will be 3 thigh kicks when i see you next =)

PaulH

01-08-2005, 01:34 AM

I now have a valid excuse not to come this Sat. Have fun in the rain with the guys, bro.=)

Ernie

01-08-2005, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
I now have a valid excuse not to come this Sat. Have fun in the rain with the guys, bro.=)

hahahaha no worries got to give to the guys rain or shine they will train , i'll be the guy out there yelling from under the umbrella !

hey i should film it !

Knifefighter

01-08-2005, 04:50 AM

If you are talking strictly about power generation, the best bet is to look towards those people that consistenly produce the highest power outputs in the world- Olympic lifters, shot putters, hammer throwers, discuss throwers. Their power generation is unsurpassed.

anerlich

01-08-2005, 05:07 AM

Their power generation in unsurpassed.

And also, importantly, measurable by non-subjective means.

yellowpikachu

01-08-2005, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
And also, importantly, measurable by non-subjective means.

it certainly has to go this path.

yellowpikachu

01-08-2005, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
i know that demon state very well :D

but i prefer to call it being passonate about something

others call it obsessive

when a person is flawed or unbalanced , great things can be achieved , from the shear force of will to find balance

when a person has found balance they slow down and lose much desire and things stall as they try to maintain the calm state

one can them be obsessed in trying to hold onto balance

like a dieing man holding onto life

no biggie we all eat $hit and turn to dust in the end :cool:

You forgot what you post today on the other discussion.
---------------------------------------------------
i have never had the desire to be top dog
it would be a very lonely place
---------------------------------------------------

you want to be the top dog. hahahaha :D

------------------------------------------------------
There is me, thus there is concern about me. thus there is attachment to mine. thus there is attachment to gain. thus, there is attachment to win. thus there is unsatisfaction, thur there is pressure. thus there is no end of suffering. ---- sutra of samsara

KPM

01-08-2005, 02:58 PM

One possible small measure or test:

Go up to your dummy/jong and stand in front of it in YJKYM. Place both palms flat on the trunk. Now strike the dummy without moving your feet or lifting your hands from the surface. This is not a "one inch strike", this is a "zero inch strike." Can you "rock" the dummy? This is the type of power generation that WCK needs and was originally designed for......short, sharp, in close, from WCK structure. Not the type of power that a shot-putter or power-lifter generates.

Keith

yellowpikachu

01-08-2005, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by KPM
One possible small measure or test:

Go up to your dummy/jong and stand in front of it in YJKYM. Place both palms flat on the trunk. Now strike the dummy without moving your feet or lifting your hands from the surface. This is not a "one inch strike", this is a "zero inch strike." Can you "rock" the dummy? This is the type of power generation that WCK needs and was originally designed for......short, sharp, in close, from WCK structure. Not the type of power that a shot-putter or power-lifter generates.

Keith

Keith,

this is great!

Achtung!:

dont try this if any part of your body/ inside or outside tensing more then the other part. because the part which is "more" tense might take the force you generate and damage that part. IMHHO.

This applied for internal organs, the reason why some people develop heart problem training this type of stuffs is because the heart organ take the shock. that stop breathing to generate power can be a cause big damage "killer". Thus, if your heart pulse is out of tune.... please see a doctor or good TCM doctor. not worthed to train things to damage one's health.

just a IMHHHHHO, not a medical advise, and please check with your doctor before do such kind of training.

Thus, I have heard, keng geng can be explain and it doesnt has to be causing anyone injuries or damaging one's health. it is a physic phenomenon, nothing Mysterious. but the Keng Geng itself needs a compassionate heart to own. otherwise, the power will ensalve one via the ego manisfesting in the passionate to test the power.
Thus, Thus, I have heard, the ancestors purposely makes it extinct . .....

Just some -- Thus, I have heard stories. dont take me serious. :D

AndrewS

01-08-2005, 08:34 PM

Hendrick writes:

>you want to be the top dog. hahahaha

Ya know Hendrick, Ernie is one of the mellowist, least competetive, least ego-driven people I know. My take is that he works hard and gets good because he enjoys the process, not because he has anything to prove. Having seen how he deals with juniors and newbies, he displays no tendancy to exercise his ego.

You, on the other hand, play wanking word games and type thousands of words a day to complete stranges, then refuse to physically demonstrate or coherently explain any of what you post. I wonder why you do that?

------------------------------------------------------
>There is me, thus there is concern about me. thus there is attachment to mine. thus there is attachment to gain. thus, there is attachment to win. thus there is unsatisfaction, thur there is pressure. thus there is no end of suffering. ---- sutra of samsara

Have you ever read Nietzsche's comments on Buddhism? Desire *defines* your humanity. Reject desire and you reject your nature.

Andrew

yellowpikachu

01-08-2005, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by AndrewS
Hendrick writes:

>you want to be the top dog. hahahaha

Ya know Hendrick, Ernie is one of the mellowist, least competetive, least ego-driven people I know. My take is that he works hard and gets good because he enjoys the process, not because he has anything to prove. Having seen how he deals with juniors and newbies, he displays no tendancy to exercise his ego.

You, on the other hand, play wanking word games and type thousands of words a day to complete stranges, then refuse to physically demonstrate or coherently explain any of what you post. I wonder why you do that?

------------------------------------------------------
>There is me, thus there is concern about me. thus there is attachment to mine. thus there is attachment to gain. thus, there is attachment to win. thus there is unsatisfaction, thur there is pressure. thus there is no end of suffering. ---- sutra of samsara

Have you ever read Nietzsche's comments on Buddhism? Desire *defines* your humanity. Reject desire and you reject your nature.

Andrew

Andrew,

Your comments is very respecablely taken and appreciate for your sharing. It might reflex the truth or it might not.
But, you dont know me. I have never recalled me meet. how can you jump into conclusion? while Ernie and me are having fun time teasing each others? (look at the smilies after the hahahaha on my original post.)

-----------------------------
You, on the other hand, play wanking word games and type thousands of words a day to complete stranges, then refuse to physically demonstrate or coherently explain any of what you post. I wonder why you do that? ---A
-----------------------------------------

seem to be a very strong comment based on one's view of one's identity is right. correct? and the above also telling about a view which is rooted in "having something to Prove" which is very different from others view of there is nothing needs to be prove.

In addition, you can ignore my post if you dont like. since this is a public forum, right? BTW, I present lots of physical evidents on what I am discussing here.

How strange is you writting to me a complete strangest commenting on me who you dont know? :D

As for the reading Book on Buddhism, everything can be inteperated in the way one wants.

IMHHO, you can defend your friend but that is not neccessary to attack me right?

That desire of attack itself is not about humanity but feeding the ego to think one is right and have the right to attack.

saying this,
we all think we are fair and correct and taking side of our friend, But we never see our sun glasses color. Thus, we all have lots to learn right? That is the reality right? we just human.

I understood your love for Ernie and respect that. I think Ernie is a loveable guy too.

Just some thoughts.

Knifefighter

01-08-2005, 09:58 PM

Ernie

01-09-2005, 12:45 AM

Big Drew-Ya know Hendrick, Ernie is one of the mellowist, least competetive, least ego-driven people I know.

*** good look'n family:)
you pretty much described yourself :D

hen=I understood your love for Ernie and respect that. I think Ernie is a loveable guy too.

===== group hug :p

lawrenceofidaho

01-09-2005, 12:59 AM

everything can be inteperated in the way one wants.

I can't remember who wrote it, but this has always stuck with me since the day I read it;

Reality is that which remains even after you have stopped believing in it.

-Lawrence

anerlich

01-09-2005, 02:47 AM

I present lots of physical evidents on what I am discussing here.

LOL! You've presented a lot of unsubstantiated stream-of-consciousness rubbish.

yellowpikachu

01-09-2005, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
I can't remember who wrote it, but this has always stuck with me since the day I read it;

Reality is that which remains even after you have stopped believing in it.

-Lawrence

You are correct too!

KPM

01-09-2005, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Here's a better test that. One that I'll do with anyone who claims to have this kind of power and who thinks that this power is equal to the type of power generated by a shotputter.

I'll let them put thier fist on my stomach and generate as much of this type power into me as they can. Next, like a shot putter, I use a rotational movement with my body to strike with my fist as hard as I can into that person's stomach. We continue until one of us can't continue. I'm betting I can continue much longer with the shotputter's type of power than the other person can with his "zero inch" power.

--Maybe so. But can you generate this "shotputter's" power without a wind-up?....without telegraphing it to the opponent?....when you are already in close with the opponent with no room to move?....."on the fly" in the heat of an exchange? I didn't say the "inch" power and the "shotputter's" power where equal or the same thing. I said that the "inch" power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this....not the "shotputters" type of power. Can you do the test I proposed? But wait, I forgot, you don't even know WCK, so why do you care?

Keith

Ultimatewingchun

01-09-2005, 06:44 AM

"Andrew,

Your comments is very respecablely taken and appreciate for your sharing. It might reflex the truth or it might not."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORDS...."or it might not"?

This is what is THE WORST CHARACTER FLAW OF ALL...about you, Hendrik....

YOUR INHERENT DISHONESTY.

There is no "might not"...and you know it.

Andrew hit the nail right on the head...and you know it.

You're pathetic - and I gotta tell you point blank...

Of all the people who frequently post on this forum - I respect you THE LEAST.

zero respect for you.

Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe.

And you then compound your sins by BOMBARDING the forum with thread-after-thread and post-after-post of total bull5hit...in a sick attempt to falsify what's true...and to attempt to make true what's false.

ZERO RESPECT.

yellowpikachu

01-09-2005, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Andrew,

Your comments is very respecablely taken and appreciate for your sharing. It might reflex the truth or it might not."

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORDS...."or it might not"?

This is what is THE WORST CHARACTER FLAW OF ALL...about you, Hendrik....

YOUR INHERENT DISHONESTY.

There is no "might not"...and you know it.

Andrew hit the nail right on the head...and you know it.

You're pathetic - and I gotta tell you point blank...

Of all the people who frequently post on this forum - I respect you THE LEAST.

zero respect for you.

Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe.

And you then compound your sins by BOMBARDING the forum with thread-after-thread and post-after-post of total bull5hit...in a sick attempt to falsify what's true...and to attempt to make true what's false.

ZERO RESPECT.

Victor,

Thanks for your opinion. I am enjoying trying to understand your thought process.

I was thinking:

may be it is because I brought up something un-intentionally and that crash your dream. Thus, you resent me?

Or, may be it is you like to be in a position that telling/leading the world and driving the world toward the 21th with your way. and I accidentally brought up something or open a can of worm that make your hope needs to be modified alittle or ?

Or, may be ....

Who knows? Lot of may be.

In any case, if I un-intentionally broken your heart. Just dont take me serious. and ignore me.

As for the INHERENT DISHONEST, I never recalled I sell anyone the Chinese Stories such as Shao Lin Monks create this best killing tool to kill the Qing.

Thus, Inherently I didnt lie. Because junior Buddhist monk has to take precept and vow of not killing and has to repent even just give raise a thought of hurting others.

The senior monk who achieve true samadhi by default free from those kind of KILLING Thoughts- as the Buddhist patriachs call-- " delusive thoughts". Thus, how can the senior monks who has true samadhi create something to kill while they are free from the "delusive thoughts"? Telling others that Some Senior Chan Monks great some killing tool to help others revenge is an INHERIT DISHONEST about Buddhism.

As for your view of "Because you REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFUL when the facts and the evidence and the logic of it all go against what you WANT to believe."

You mean because I dont believe your Shao Lin story and your view of ultimate wing chun? Now, can you nail me to be REFUSE TO BE TRUTHFULL because I respect your view but dont share your believe?

I really appreciate to be your ZERO RESPECT because you provide such a great chance to help me to check if I still get mad because other's mis-understanding and give me Zero Respect. Or I can understood where the other comes from without getting any emotional. That is a part of Chan training.

Victor, ignore this ZERO respect person or his posts. Not worted to waste energy.

BUT, have you think about may be being open hearted and open minded to be able to embrace all ignorance of the ZERO REPECT person is also a path to the great Ultimate achievement for your? As it said, change the heart change the mind and one raise up to a broader and higher level?

Best Wishes.

Ultimatewingchun

01-09-2005, 08:40 PM

I've decided not to ignore you.

I've decided to beat your dishonesty into the ground.

And I'm very happy that a whole bunch of other people around here have decided to do the same thing.

yellowpikachu

01-09-2005, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
I've decided not to ignore you.

I've decided to beat your dishonesty into the ground.

And I'm very happy that a whole bunch of other people you and here have decided to do the same thing.

Thanks and appreciate for you to think of a ZERO RESPECT to be so significant to waste energy at.

I would thank your help to beat my dishonesty into ground, for that you have help me to improve myself and make me a better person who is free from dishonesty.

Thanks and appreciate for your help. bro.

duende

01-09-2005, 08:58 PM

Becareful... Hendikk likes being beaten.

He's kind of sick that way.

Ultimatewingchun

01-09-2005, 09:03 PM

You may be onto something there, duende.

KPM

01-09-2005, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
LOL! You've presented a lot of unsubstantiated stream-of-consciousness rubbish.

Rubbish? His methods may be frustrating, distracting, even annoying... but rubbish? Let's see, what has Hendrik been trying to get across.....

1. That the "short" power or "inch" power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. Rubbish? I don't think so.

2. That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin. Rubbish? I don't think so.

3. That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past. Rubbish? I don't think so.

4. That the "traditional" approach still has value and should be respected. Rubbish? I don't think so.

So I don't think there is a "nail" here, nor that it has been "hit on the head." So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik "inherently dishonest" is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don't like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

Keith

old jong

01-09-2005, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by KPM
...but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don't like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

Keith

I second that 100%.
Everybody can share his opinions but personal vendettas like we see too much on this forum are bad for everybody. IMO,trying too much to "expose" those whose ideas are different from our's only results in "exposing" our own limitations and narrow mind.

anerlich

01-09-2005, 11:55 PM

So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik "inherently dishonest" is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don't like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

I never said he was "inherently dishonest", I contested his assertion of supporting his claims with physical "evidents". All of your other points have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Good advice about calming down, I suggest you take it.

As Hendrik keeps telling us all about his own posts, it's a public forum, and I can say what I like. He's not exactly Mother Teresa when it comes to veiled or unveiled insults himself.

Besides, I like argung and throwing insults. Sue me.

I have no personal vendetta. I call BS when I see it, whoever posts it.

old jong

01-10-2005, 01:49 AM

We all can agree that what one may consider as BS can as well be appreciated in a different manner by others.

Ultimatewingchun

01-10-2005, 04:19 AM

1. That the "short" power or "inch" power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. "

(Just HOW important is it - this inch power?
Answer: Means very little during the course of a real fight).
.................................................. ...............................................

2. "That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin."

(So what? - Why should I care?)

.................................................. ..........................................

3. "That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past."

(Again...big deal! Great for a discussion around the fireplace in my old age.)

.................................................. ........................................

4. That the "traditional" approach still has value and should be respected.

(Only if that "traditional" approach serves me well in the here and now martial arts world.)

.................................................. .................................

As for Hendrik being an extremely dishonest person with a personal racial superiority agenda and a penchant for falsehoods and evasive denials when confronted with evidence contrary to what he wants to believe - ALL OF IT BEING DONE in order to cover up his own personal insecurities about his fighting abilites - I stand by everything I've said. All of which could easily be overlooked were it not for the fact that he makes an ENORMOUS amount of threads and posts connected to all of this.

It's at that point that people will react with severe criticism.

He brings it all upon himself.

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by KPM
I said that the "inch" power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this....not the "shotputters" type of power. And this is exactly why you only see "bad WC" when people actually have to use it to fight. Those "inch power" punches simply don't work.

yellowpikachu

01-10-2005, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
1. That the "short" power or "inch" power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. "

(Just HOW important is it - this inch power?
Answer: Means very little during the course of a real fight).
.................................................. ...............................................

2. "That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin."

(So what? - Why should I care?)

.................................................. ..........................................

3. "That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past."

(Again...big deal! Great for a discussion around the fireplace in my old age.)

.................................................. ........................................

4. That the "traditional" approach still has value and should be respected.

(Only if that "traditional" approach serves me well in the here and now martial arts world.)

.................................................. .................................

As for Hendrik being an extremely dishonest person with a personal racial superiority agenda and a penchant for falsehoods and evasive denials when confronted with evidence contrary to what he wants to believe - ALL OF IT BEING DONE in order to cover up his own personal insecurities about his fighting abilites - I stand by everything I've said. All of which could easily be overlooked were it not for the fact that he makes an ENORMOUS amount of threads and posts connected to all of this.

It's at that point that people will react with severe criticism.

He brings it all upon himself.

Dear Victor,

With Respect,
Again, Thank you and appreciate for your critic.

With your critics, I will certainly check myself to see if I have done what you described.

If I am, then, There is always vast room for me to improve to become better, and appreciate for your concern , and the help and opportunity you give me to improve.

If your critic doesnt fit me, then, I would still thank you for your time and critics. and take your critics as a constructive present you kindly give to me.

Thank You and appreciate

KPM

01-10-2005, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And this is exactly why you only see "bad WC" when people actually have to use it to fight. Those "inch power" punches simply don't work.

Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this "inch power" properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a "lost art." I'll ask again.....you don't even do WCK, so why do you care? Go criticize someone else.

Keith

KPM

01-10-2005, 12:49 PM

Andrew wrote:
I never said he was "inherently dishonest", I contested his assertion of supporting his claims with physical "evidents". All of your other points have nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Victor used your post and Hendrik's response to that post to label Hendrik as "inherently dishonest" in this thread. My response was to both of you. Sorry you cannot see such simple connections. As far as physical evidence....I would like to see more myself. But at least Hendrik has posted pictures of White Crane practitioners and some links to White Crane sites with more pictures. Its hard to do a lot more than that on a discussion forum. KPM

Good advice about calming down, I suggest you take it.

I'm perfectly calm. I'm not the one telling someone else that their ideas are "rubbish", nor am I the one calling someone "dishonest." I was just trying to bring a little moderation to the discussion. Like I said before, if you don't like what or how Hendrik posts then ignore it. KPM

Keith

Ultimatewingchun

01-10-2005, 04:59 PM

"Dear Victor,

With Respect,
Again, Thank you and appreciate for your critic.

With your critics, I will certainly check myself to see if I have done what you described.

If I am, then, There is always vast room for me to improve to become better, and appreciate for your concern , and the help and opportunity you give me to improve.

If your critic doesnt fit me, then, I would still thank you for your time and critics. and take your critics as a constructive present you kindly give to me.

Thank You and appreciate" (Hendrik)

.................................................. ................................

I'm betting that...in Hendrik's mind...the only operative phrase in the above statement is this:

"If your critic doesn't fit me..."

And that he's already discarded everything else.

t_niehoff

01-10-2005, 07:08 PM

KPM wrote:

Rubbish? His methods may be frustrating, distracting, even annoying... but rubbish? Let's see, what has Hendrik been trying to get across.....

1. That the "short" power or "inch" power is important to WCK, was part of the older WCK tradition, is a very important link or commonality to Fukien White Crane, and is missing from a lot of modern WCK. Rubbish? I don't think so.

**I don't think that's rubbish either. I agree that historically this may be significant.

2. That WCK shares much more in common with Fukien White Crane both from a historical and technical viewpoint than it does with Shaolin. Rubbish? I don't think so.

**And that seems to be the key aspect of Hendrik's claim -- that Shaolin-derived methods don't use short power. I don't know if that is true or not. The problem is that there is so much cross-pollination over the years, with "outside" influences creeping in, that it is difficult to say. He may be onto something.

3. That modern WCK can be informed by, inspired by, and enriched by knowing what has come before and how it is linked to the past. Rubbish? I don't think so.

**Again, I agree with you.

4. That the "traditional" approach still has value and should be respected. Rubbish? I don't think so.

**Again, I agree with you. However, having value and being respected doesn't mean, at least for me, that it is accepted as the best way, the only way, the defining way. Certainly it is the historical way but that doesn't necessarily mean that it should be adopted as the "DNA". There is a historical way jiujitsu was taught, done, etc. Same with boxing or any other fighting method. Those 'ways' don't necessarily inform us of how we should do them today. What does inform us of how we, as individuals, should do things are our personal results.

So I don't think there is a "nail" here, nor that it has been "hit on the head." So to use that as a basis to call Hendrik "inherently dishonest" is pretty far off the mark. Just my opinion, but I think some people need to calm down a bit. If you don't like what or how Hendrik writes, then just ignore it.

**I don't agree with the "ignoring it" part. I think Hendrik challenges us, forces us to think, to be critical, to evaluate our own ideas -- that's all useful whether we agree with his perspective or not. Ignoring it, putting your head in the sand, is not useful or productive.

-------------------

KPM wrote:

I said that the "inch" power is what WCK needs and was originally designed for. The WCK structure was designed for this....not the "shotputters" type of power.

KF responded:

And this is exactly why you only see "bad WC" when people actually have to use it to fight. Those "inch power" punches simply don't work.

KPM then responded:

Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this "inch power" properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a "lost art." I'll ask again.....you don't even do WCK, so why do you care? Go criticize someone else.

**First, in my view, short power, inch power, whatever you call it, is a *part*, and an important part, of WCK, but it is not the whole enchilada (not what WCK was designed for). It is an element of the method. And just like any element, how much stress an individual puts on it in their expression (application) will be an individual matter.

**Second, KF, I think it is more accurate to say that you haven't seen anyone that could make their short power work. That's probably true -- many can "do it" in drills or demos, but few of them actually develop it in fighting (so they can't make it work). Short power is a significant part of "my game", but I've found that it is only an element that can be used in certain situations.

**Third, Keith, I don't think it is a "lost art" -- I've seen many folks able to generate short power (at least in demo). I'll agree with you that many have down-played the significance of that element in their expressions, but that is how things should be. It is like a bob-and-weave, short hook-type boxer (Joe Frazier) that doesn't use jabs or crosses very much -- sure they are an element of boxing, but how you fit them into *your boxing* will depend on you. They may play a very small role or a very large role. To say "historically they played a large role" may be accurate; but that doesn't mean we must do it that way today.

**Finally, criticism is a good thing, a positive thing, it should be welcomed -- criticism is not a personal attack but a means of growth.

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by KPM
Have you even been reading this thread? The point was that few people in WCK know how to generate this "inch power" properly. It is part of the older teaching that is becoming somewhat of a "lost art." Ah, the old, "the old masters used to do it, but no one can do it now" argument. If it isn't able to be done now, it probably was never done with any effectiveness in the first place.

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Short power is a significant part of "my game", but I've found that it is only an element that can be used in certain situations. I seriously doubt you are doing much or any damage when you hit someone from and inch or two away from them.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Third, Keith, I don't think it is a "lost art" -- I've seen many folks able to generate short power (at least in demo). Demos are completely different than real figthing. If anyone should know this, it should be you.

Ultimatewingchun

01-10-2005, 08:48 PM

Okay guys...let's get real now.

One inch punch power is a demo trick more than anything else. Have seen William Cheung knock an 180 lb. man backwards and into a chair a few feet away while holding a phone book to his chest...all from a single one inch punch. (And I'm sure some of you have seen similar "demos" through the years (Bruce Lee also comes to mind). But here's the catch - it took a moment's concentration (and something of a meditative expression) to gear up before being ready to deliver the blow.

BUT THAT'S A LUXURY THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE.

As well as the fact that in all demonstrations of this sort that I've seen - the man was standing square on....so there was no leg "in front of" the blow to help absorb the shock and bring it down into the ground. In other words, the blow was delivered where the man's balance was weakest.

So if you want to talk about real short range power - as in power shots that can come from 10-11-12 inches away...fine.

And even at that - it will still probably take some degree of body torgue to make it a knockout type blow. And a top notch fighter with some highly developed punching power UNDER PRESSURE.

So let's stop wasting our time on fantasy, shall we?

Knifefighter

01-10-2005, 09:00 PM

Just to make sure we're on the same page here regarding "inch power"... I am referring to doing damage with a punch from this distance, not pushing someone backwards. Anyone can push someone backwards from this distance. If, by the "inch power", you are talking about pushing someone or off-balancing them from there, I'm OK with that.

Doing any kind of damage with a punch from a distance of a few inches is a completly different story, however.

old jong

01-10-2005, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Okay guys...let's get real now.

One inch punch power is a demo trick more than anything else. Have seen William Cheung knock an 180 lb. man backwards and into a chair a few feet away while holding a phone book to his chest...all from a single one inch punch. (And I'm sure some of you have seen similar "demos" through the years (Bruce Lee also comes to mind). But here's the catch - it took a moment's concentration (and something of a meditative expression) to gear up before being ready to deliver the blow.

BUT THAT'S A LUXURY THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE.

As well as the fact that in all demonstrations of this sort that I've seen - the man was standing square on....so there was no leg "in front of" the blow to help absorb the shock and bring it down into the ground. In other words, the blow was delivered where the man's balance was weakest.

So if you want to talk about real short range power - as in power shots that can come from 10-11-12 inches away...fine.

And even at that - it will still probably take some degree of body torgue to make it a knockout type blow. And a top notch fighter with some highly developed punching power UNDER PRESSURE.

So let's stop wasting our time on fantasy, shall we?

IMO,this parlor trick is doing no good to Wing Chun in general.It only shows a bad application and focus of "short power". The need to push for showmanship instead of hurting and dropping the opponent on the spot is bringing false conceptions on this subject.
The idea of "proper striking distance" is as always relative to the skill degree of the Wing Chun man doing a punch in real application.Many will need more distance to generate power than a few ones.It is a good thing to be able to generate effective power from at least the bridge hand distance without having to bring back the hand .That way we at least don't hinder our defensive structure.
Generaly,the most relaxed and connected the technique= the less distance needed in punching with real power. A relaxed mind is also needed thus... ( ;) ) a limitative factor for many in the "heat of combat".

Zhuge Liang

01-10-2005, 09:12 PM

Hi Victor,

But here's the catch - it took a moment's concentration (and something of a meditative expression) to gear up before being ready to deliver the blow.

While I agree that being able to use short power under pressure is not nearly as easy as using it in a demo, I don't believe that's the type of short power we're referring to. At least it's not the type I have experience with. Short power should be expressable from many positions (and if you're really really good, from any position) and should require no gear up time. It can be expressed with no more concentration or prepreparation than it takes to raise your hand.

But of course, talk is cheap. Maybe one of the things we can go over in may is what everyone means by short power. I'm betting that there are more than a few different interpretations.

Regards,
Alan

t_niehoff

01-10-2005, 09:19 PM

knifefighter wrote:

Just to make sure we're on the same page here regarding "inch power"... I am referring to doing damage with a punch from this distance, not pushing someone backwards. Anyone can push someone backwards from this distance. If, by the "inch power", you are talking about pushing someone or off-balancing them from there, I'm OK with that.

**I use "inch power" to get a shocking-type result, an off-balancing off my opponent, a disruption of his action, more like a jolt of electricity, jarring rather than inflicting "damage". In my view, short power/inch power shots are an altogether different sort of strike than most people use (like boxers) and their purpose is to get a different result.

Doing any kind of damage with a punch from a distance of a few inches is a completly different story, however.

**I agree. It's a "set-up" rather than finishing blow.

------------------

Victor,

Just because you don't do it, or can't do it, doesn't make it ineffective. As I said above, I use short power to send shock into my opponent, to disrupt them, to "set up" my next move. Some people may get away without using it; others may need it. I've found it is a great way for a smaller person to "drain", at least momentarily, the power/strength from a larger person.

Nick Forrer

01-10-2005, 09:34 PM

My Teacher has hit me with a one inch punch in the chest and all i wanted to do was to sit down and get some air back into my lungs. If he had hit my face there is no doubt that it would have been the end of it. Of course this is the internet and if people want to maintain cartesian scepticism about these things fine. I am of the view that scepticism is a good thing particulalry in the USA where BS in politics and advertising (forget MA) seems to abound. I have to give the gracies/ufc/vale tudo credit in that respect. They have basically got everyone to show their hands and to see who is bluffing.

To me Wing chun is a close range fighting system. Therefore its not that there is something intrinsically wonderful about short shock power, just that if you are going to fight at close range then that is what you need to develop. Once Wing chun ceases to be close range IMO you are better off doing karate or kick boxing. That is their range- and their engine , that is, their method of generating power, has been designed accordingly.

I didnt really appreciate this until I started WSL wing chun. Before that, like lots of other wing chun, I stayed on the wrists, my attacks were all at arms length and my conception of chi sau was basically a glorified game of tag. I dont mention specific lineages or people because all it does is create resentment/politics etc. However a lot of wing chun is frankly poor - poorly taught and poorly understood. Either people are too tai chi ish about it (no diss to tai chi) and just play with the hands, or they are really tense and rely on strength.

Really good wing chun people are like ghosts - very elusive with no tension until they hit you (like a whip with a hammer on the end). There are only a handful of people I have met with this skill.
One of them is my teacher (surprise surprise) one of them is his training partner of 30 years, one of them is another student of WSL (who incidentally beat off three armed attackers and has the scars to proof it - who else can claim that) and one of them is Emin Boztepe.

Dale- You are in Cal. Why dont you go to one of Emins classes and have a go with him. Im pretty sure you might come away with a higher opinion of wing chun.

old jong

01-10-2005, 09:43 PM

As is any human endaveours,barriers are made to be jumped over.These barriers are sometimes physical and many times mental. Not two people will get the same results according to many aspects of these two factors but one element is crucial...You have to acknowledge the existance of the skill you want to develop prior to any realisation.Once you know what you want and you train the right way,you just do and achieve the best you can or is possible for you.

Ultimatewingchun

01-10-2005, 10:18 PM

"Just because you don't do it, or can't do it, doesn't make it ineffective. As I said above, I use short power to send shock into my opponent, to disrupt them, to 'set up' my next move." (Terence)

Oh...I get it.

We're talking about short power to shock or stun someone - so that we can set up the next move.

Yeah...okay...I can do that.

And oftentimes do.

But somehow I got the impression on this thread that people were talking about much more than a "shock/disruption move" (ie.- one inch punch)...to set up a bigger move.

It must be me.

t_niehoff

01-10-2005, 10:51 PM

NF wrote:

My Teacher has hit me with a one inch punch in the chest and all i wanted to do was to sit down and get some air back into my lungs.

**That's what it feels like, alright!

If he had hit my face there is no doubt that it would have been the end of it.

**Not necessarily, as the head has more "give". But you make a good point, it may have that effect.

Of course this is the internet and if people want to maintain cartesian scepticism about these things fine. I am of the view that scepticism is a good thing particulalry in the USA where BS in politics and advertising (forget MA) seems to abound. I have to give the gracies/ufc/vale tudo credit in that respect. They have basically got everyone to show their hands and to see who is bluffing.

**Agreed. But there is something more . . . see below.

To me Wing chun is a close range fighting system. Therefore its not that there is something intrinsically wonderful about short shock power, just that if you are going to fight at close range then that is what you need to develop.

**This is my view as well.

Once Wing chun ceases to be close range IMO you are better off doing karate or kick boxing. That is their range- and their engine , that is, their method of generating power, has been designed accordingly.

**This is part of what I call "the demands of range". But, I think we need to be very cautious anytime we move into "should" -- WCK should be done like this (which is part of should not be done like that). I think it proper to say "this is my view" or "this is how I do it" but when we start making pronouncements about how WCK "should" be, then we are off into theory-land. It's better to just say "I've never seen anyone that could make it work like that."

I didnt really appreciate this until I started WSL wing chun. Before that, like lots of other wing chun, I stayed on the wrists, my attacks were all at arms length and my conception of chi sau was basically a glorified game of tag. I dont mention specific lineages or people because all it does is create resentment/politics etc. However a lot of wing chun is frankly poor - poorly taught and poorly understood. Either people are too tai chi ish about it (no diss to tai chi) and just play with the hands, or they are really tense and rely on strength.

**There is lots of poor WCK.

Really good wing chun people are like ghosts -

**LOL! There is a great chinese proverb about ghosts: anyone can draw a ghost, but it is difficult to draw a man (we know what a man looks like and can compare the drawing to it; with ghosts we can draw almost anything). Having fighting skills is like drawing a man -- it is difficult because we can see and compare that to reality. Theoretical views are like ghosts, we can say anything.

very elusive with no tension until they hit you (like a whip with a hammer on the end). There are only a handful of people I have met with this skill.
One of them is my teacher (surprise surprise) one of them is his training partner of 30 years, one of them is another student of WSL (who incidentally beat off three armed attackers and has the scars to proof it - who else can claim that) and one of them is Emin Boztepe.

**Another thing I think we need to stay away from is patting folks on the back for their great skill when they have never put their @ss on the line (by fighting really good fighters). Lots of folks have a good grasp on the method, but no one in WCK has so far demonstrated world-class level fighting skills.

t_niehoff

01-10-2005, 10:58 PM

Victor,

It's an element . . . lots of people have it, lots of people can "do" it, etc. It's like having the "slip" in boxing. Everyone has the slip. BFD -- does that mean they are all good boxers? It's how well we can do it, how well we can use it in our fighting that matters. Everyone has the lop sao. Some people can lop so that it feels like your arm is being ripped from the shoulder joint (from the short power), so that your head snaps back from the whiplash, so that you are yanked off-balance, etc.; some don't use the lop that way. It's what you have, how you put it together, how well it is developed, etc. You can only evaluate the whole enchilada, not the parts. Theoreticians don't see that.

Kevin Bell

01-11-2005, 12:18 AM

Dont worry Nick he's hit me in the face you dont want to take to many of them but it was all in the name of fun and luckily for me controlled....:) :) Gonna have to work on my rugby tackle to try and stop the onslaught or tap out...

A possibilty a couple of us coming up on a friday when al collects his new dummy! You around???

Ultimatewingchun

01-11-2005, 01:59 AM

"Victor, lots of people have it, lots of people can "do" it...It's how well we can do it..." (Terence)

Obviously referring to the one inch punch.

Exactly how well can you do it, Terence?

I mean...compared to other people?

Matrix

01-11-2005, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
You can only evaluate the whole enchilada, not the parts. Theoreticians don't see that. Terence,
You were doing so well until that last line. :rolleyes:

Knifefighter

01-11-2005, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
My Teacher has hit me with a one inch punch in the chest and all i wanted to do was to sit down and get some air back into my lungs. If he had hit my face there is no doubt that it would have been the end of it. Of course this is the internet and if people want to maintain cartesian scepticism about these things fine. For about 15 years now, I have been letting people "one inch punch" me in the stomach. I have had people of up to 100 lbs. heavier than me who had supposedly "mastered" the punch do it. So far, no damage... and this has been without me fighting back.

Knifefighter

01-11-2005, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Dale- You are in Cal. Why dont you go to one of Emins classes and have a go with him. Im pretty sure you might come away with a higher opinion of wing chun. Can one just show up at his school and spar with him?

Nick Forrer

01-11-2005, 04:04 AM

Re Emin: Ask Andrew S - I dont know for sure. But the couple of times ive met him he was very hands on. Including with the inch punch.

Also I may be wrong about this but it seems like your (6 years) experience of wing chun is through JKD people - phrases like trapping range, straight blasts make me think this. IMO the JKD approach to wing chun that i have seen, because it does not use the same body structure, can never genrate power in the same way. Hence perhaps your inability to meet someone who can do it. If memory serves you have been cagey in the past about who you have learnt from - fair enough but it makes it difficult when you talk about the 'experts' you have met.

t_niehoff

01-11-2005, 04:05 AM

Victor wrote:

"Victor, lots of people have it, lots of people can "do" it...It's how well we can do it..." (Terence)

Obviously referring to the one inch punch.

Exactly how well can you do it, Terence?

I mean...compared to other people?

**Who knows? Better than some, not as well as others.

----------------

Matrix wrote:

Originally posted by t_niehoff: You can only evaluate the whole enchilada, not the parts. Theoreticians don't see that.

Terence,
You were doing so well until that last line.

**Sorry you don't agree. My point is that theoreticans focus on the pieces and the "should" -- and that's not surprising because if someone is a dryland swimmer (and has no experience swimming) they can only focus on how they believe some aspect should be done and they can't put evaluate how all the pieces work together to swim as they aren't swimming.

Matrix

01-11-2005, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
My point is that theoreticans focus on the pieces and the "should" -- and that's not surprising because if someone is a dryland swimmer. It seems to me that you see things almost entirely in black and white, when there are many shades of gray. My point is that your previous post was quite good, until you ended it with a us-versus-them comment. Even a "folk dancer" could appreciate it.

KPM

01-11-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
It seems to me that you see things almost entirely in black and white, when there are many shades of gray. My point is that your previous post was quite good, until you ended it with a us-versus-them comment. Even a "folk dancer" could appreciate it.

HeHeHe! You're not the first one to tell him that! And likely not the last! :-)

Keith

t_niehoff

01-11-2005, 02:29 PM

Matrix,

It's not an "us vs; them" sort of thing -- I was referring to the fact that one cannot truly evaluate these things, like most other things, from a "theoretical" POV.

As far as black-and-white goes, whether you want to admit it or not, lots of things are fairly straightforward: if you want to get in good shape, for example, you must exercise -- there is no way around that. Black-and-white? Or, rather just the way things are? Want to develop greater fighting skill? Then you gotta fight as part of your training. Just the way things are.

Matrix

01-12-2005, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
It's not an "us vs; them" sort of thing -- I was referring to the fact that one cannot truly evaluate these things, like most other things, from a "theoretical" POV. If that's your point, then I totally agree. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as black-and-white goes, whether you want to admit it or not, lots of things are fairly straightforward: ....... Just the way things are. Sure. But I mean that there is not a black-and-white method of getting to the goal. Getting in shape means exercise (plus diet, etc) but what method of exercise? And different people respond differently to one method or another. Also, for example, you may need an aerobic and anaerobic component. How much or each? Sure, at one level you can say to get fit, you must exercise. Scratch the surface, and more levels of detail are required, and more alternatives are possible. At least that's how I see it.