Conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight.

[Vankuen]

THINK about this long and hard fellas...are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven't trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I've had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries....)

Most of you know that I've recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling "one step style" the attacker being "style-less" and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next...the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next...the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before....and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we're wearing gloves and mouthpieces...cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)....for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks...I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows...(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I'm not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn't put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm...(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I'm going to be upping my cardio now....and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don't like it....I'm not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my "proper" techniques...all my sensetivity...all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don't have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and "softies" that if you don't train to fight....you won't be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys...but can't make any guarantees.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I've believed for quite some time now that the 3 ingredients required for being a successful fighter are:

1) WILL

2) CONDITIONING

3) SKILL



In that order..............................

Skill (technique) is last on the list. (Athough all three are important).

Paradoxically, however...since I'm now 54 years old...and I do strive to be in real good condition at all times (including cardio)...I find that my cardio endurance nonetheless more often than not -

can't keep up with someone 20+ years younger and in real good cardio shape. (I might spar all out with someone for about three minutes or so - and then I'll probably be running out of gas - but they probably won't be).

So I have to rely heavily on Will and Skill...and concentrate on ending all "encounters" as quickly as I can...which has affected my entire fight philosophy in recent years. (And has also affected my thinking as to exactly what types of techniques and strategies I should concentrate upon developing).

Don't want to "spar" when I spar...don't want to get into a Wing Chun "boxing match" when I spar...don't want to get into a prolonged grappling match when I wrestle...

Just want to successfully end the encounter as quickly as I can.

The video clips I'm going to put up will reflect this.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not a believer in the "three second" Wing Chun fight - or the one punch knockout. If it happens...fine. But I'm not expecting it to happen - and I don't go looking for the one-punch (or one-kick) knockout.

What I do look for is a quick attempt to begin "controlling" my opponent's body (whether it be standing or on the ground)...nullifying his potential weapons...and then going in for the finish. (And the better your technique is - the more you can begin to control WHILE striking/kicking, etc.)

And I stop sparring/wrestling when I run out of gas.

Take a rest...and start over.

Don't see any benefit (and much potential danger) to continue sparring/wrestling competitively when there's no cardio endurance left.

Occasionally I might push myself when tired (just to see how far I can go before exhaustion) - but it's very rare.

Took me a long time to see the wisdom in this...(the ego said..."No, I can still go on").

But the body wasn't willing.

That's when you can get injured while training competitively with a partner. (He may not know how vulnerable you really are...and may do something at full speed/power that he would normally expect you to be able to deal with or absorb without too much of a problem - but you can't this time.)

Got to conserve your energy when it's running on empty.

[yellowpikachu]

ofcouse,

Conditiong is the Kung of the Kung fu.

as it said, training in technics doesnt train in Kung, one can do that until old age and everything is an empty training.

[IRONMONK]

I have started to add strength and conditioning to my training and it has made a big difference!!!

this is a good site with articles on conditioning for fighting:

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym.html

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Vankuen
THINK about this long and hard fellas...are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven't trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I've had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries....)

Most of you know that I've recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling "one step style" the attacker being "style-less" and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next...the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next...the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before....and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we're wearing gloves and mouthpieces...cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)....for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks...I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows...(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I'm not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn't put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm...(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I'm going to be upping my cardio now....and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don't like it....I'm not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my "proper" techniques...all my sensetivity...all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don't have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and "softies" that if you don't train to fight....you won't be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys...but can't make any guarantees.


Conditioning is a major factor in a fight as is the ability to punch someone excessively hard and make sure they stay down. they all go hand in hand technical,tactical skill, conditioning speed timing etc most importantly making sure it works in a real fight. good post impressed with Victor not taking it easy sets a good example to the younger lazy people who rest on their laurels...

What conditioning you doing at the mo?

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen,

I agree with you -- conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can't be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn't matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill -- soft, out-of-shape, easily winded -- regardless of what title they've given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn't something you attain and then have it for life; it's like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls

[Frank Exchange]

By your own admission, you were fine at the beginning, it was only after a long time that you got too tired to hit hard and accurately, but wouldn't a real fight be over by then?

Sure, bearing in mind there is always somebody stronger, faster, better trained, harder than you etc. and you want to be the best you can be, do you not think that there is a point of diminishing returns?

[yellowpikachu]

conditioning lead to a question of what specific type of mind/body conditioning and the characteristics of the result.

As in the Chinese Martial art, the harder style is not condition thier body similar to the softer style.
The kicker style will condition thier body different then the arms style.
The Kiu Sau style will not condition thier body simillar to the momentum manuval style.... list goes on.

That doesnt mean one conditioning is better then other, but there are different type or same type different weight of conditioning to support the style.


This bring back to the Enginee of the Style. Because IMHHO the enginee is the Kung which is directly based on the methodology of the conditioning.


IMHHHO.

As a further example, the Shao Lin's Yee Jing Jing is condition the body different then the taiJi's reel silk. Producing different type of power which is suitable for thier style.

Both Choy Lee Fut and White Crane Weng Chun are using "stone lock" as it called Yan Tze Pai or sek so in cantonese. but they do it differently since thier power generation is different.



So, as for WCK, IMHHO, that SLT/SNT set is also a conditioning set. which is different with the Karate's san chin set ( note that I didnt use the San Chin of White Crane Wing Chun because within White CRane wing Chun there are different sets of San Chin. so I use the karate san chin set as contrast where most people will know)


So, I disagree with "just fighting". There are more to that. and lots of issue needs to be solved interm of mind/body conditioning to suite a particular style.


At the end, here is a sentence Terence or some of you might not like to listern. and please ignore me if you dont like to listern.

Technical history finding will let one to be able to find out what kind of Conditioning and the process of the conditioning design for that particular style. and it is very critical because without knowing that particular conditioning. One can have great general conditioning but will not be able to activate or optimize the style. Such as, if one take away the Inch Jing Join Power of the White Crane Weng Chun's or its white Crane decendent style. The style's will not be as effective as it was designed.

IMHHHO
Wing Chun if using the Southern Matis/Hakka style conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Shao Lin TaiZhu style of conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost /become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Boxing conditioning, Then
Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.

Thus, that is the significant of technical history and finding out what, how, why.... the enginee can be started.

A reason of the existance of the Qi stuff is about to be able to monitor the path and the weight of the conditioning process, beside using breathing as an indicator. how do one knows one's heart functioning is going weak? monitoring that heart medirians.


Thus, Chan by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Qi by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Breathng by itself doesnt solve all the problem. stucture by itself doesnt solve all the problem..... it is an integrated system one is looking at.




Not a simple issues. everything is linking to everything.
IMHHHO.


I hope that people understand seraching into History is not about who is the oldest or most original or any secret technics but it is all about do we understand what kind of technology/conditioning was developed and thier effectiveness. without clearly knowing the technology/conditioning of a style in Chinese Martial art is just kidding ourself that we know that style. We can add and import and mix before we have a clear understanding. But is it that style? or we just create one of our own?




just some thoughts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
The best proof of a correct history is about found the key for others to be able to turn on the enginee of SLT/SNT for whoever and whatever lineage from RedBoat as it is. and heard "WOW, it works!" with joy.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Vankuen,

I agree with you -- conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can't be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn't matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill -- soft, out-of-shape, easily winded -- regardless of what title they've given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn't something you attain and then have it for life; it's like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.).


Crikey Terence had to catch myself there you mentioned swimming without reference to dry land swimming:D :D Actually i propose the phrase armchair general?? What do you reckon??

Actually Terence i use swimming on my GPP days on the Conjugate method for anaerobic stuff. Done in the correct manner = HELL!!!!!

Victor
I impressed for a middle age gent (i hope i've worded that politely) you are actively practising S&C. There are to many people who misunderstand S&C usually conjuring up images of "Arnie" (oh dear)..You have my respect sir.

[Ernie]

conditioning
no brainer , you should be conditioning yourself for no other reason then a better quality of life

if you base you conditioning only for a martial art then your an idoit and a slave :D

as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion

no sitting in stances , breathing , doing forms , hitting a dummy , reeling , sinking , burping ****ing

none of that equates to functional power

there is no proof ,

sure if you create the game [ set the fixed limits ] you can demonstrate any magical bs you want

but once you break the dam and the water starts rushing in on all sides things change

any one can become the king of the kingdom they create , but that kingdom my have no functional purpose in the real world ,

but people still search for atlantis and the ark chasing shadows i guess

hey who cares , as long as you can be the king of your kingdom right !

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls

I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie

as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion





Your opinion is accepted and embrace.
But is it reality? that is a big question.


Very true, and agree.
"There is only one real power in combat, the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion"

However, there is a different in power. The Tsunami power, The rock rooling down from hill power. The wild forest fire burning power. The power of arrow and bow. The power of bullets. The power of communication jamming. The power of neuclear weapon. The power of laser cannon. The power of TNT.

There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
When there is riot in the country where the people of the world starving and have no grain to eat. the Queen said, why dont they just eat meat. It is only Food Power. big deal. and there is no proof that grains feed better. :D

BTW. the grain eater has less tendency to develop heart problem.:D

[Ernie]

There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
There is only "power" but there are ways and ways to reach to that "power". Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work


great post.

[Kevin Bell]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows)


Hey Nick

shadow boxing? i didnt know you done some boxing. If you do come down to Soton to do the Anti Grappling sesh maybe we can get the gloves out and do some boxing as well.



Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???:) :)


Cheers chaps
Kev

[Ernie]

kev
Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???



what if you in pool or on snow :) i was stuck in the snow all weekend by a lake so it was fresh on my mind


as for my work outs

as of 2 weeks ago nothing ! i'm eating like a pig and doing nothing !

well except for the running and stretching and rehab on my arm :D

[Kevin Bell]

Ernie,

Thus i heard according to legend the monster can also swim ever heard of loch ness???

[[Eating like a pig and taking a well earned rest...]]

Good job as well. Rest is the most important thing right now bro, heal that darn arm!!!! Plus you've earnt the rest and the fun thing is putting yourself back through the mill and getting it back!!!

As im sat here now i've come off of three gym sesh's in two days (bank holiday monday just gone had to make up a day yesterday with two gym sessions) two hour WC sesh last night, gym today boxing tonight and cycling to work at 6 30am tomorrow Pilates tomorrow night. Friday Max Effort lower body and an appointment with the Concept two rower.Vegetable steamer on the go right now and looking forward to two days rest at the weekend and a glass of the red stuff.

[anerlich]

It goes back to the old swimming metaphor

NOOOOO!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Strength, endurance (includes will), skill.

If you outstrip your opponent in 2 of these three areas, IMO the odds are on your side.

[iblis73]

Wow, now I kinda miss training with Nico and that crew.....I remember they were always very gung ho and really pushed you (but werent nuts.) Conditioning for short burts like 15, 30 60 and 120 second rounds is great. It allows one a lot more breathing room in the street so to speak. What few realize is the debilitating effect an adrenaline dump can have on you during an altercation-its BAD for me anyways, tires me out incredibly fast.

[Kevin Bell]

Wow, now I kinda miss training with Nico and that crew.....I remember they were always very gung ho and really pushed you (but werent nuts.) Conditioning for short burts like 15, 30 60 and 120 second rounds is great. It allows one a lot more breathing room in the street so to speak. What few realize is the debilitating effect an adrenaline dump can have on you during an altercation-its BAD for me anyways, tires me out incredibly fast.


Bingo,
Hence the need for big Anaerobic style workouts. Try Milling and you'll confirm how tiring it is... Good call on the adrenal dump also emotive fear worth a mention...

I operate a rotate system on my Anaerobic drills all designed to break sap the will destroy feel pain and hit me from different angles

Important point worth mentioning is as Ernie said earlier people should be working out anyway for a better quality life.

[Vankuen]

Of course people should work out in general, I do that now...but not to the level I guess that would sustain my newfound martial arts training levels.

I go to the gym, lift what weight I can given my wrist, swim, run, hit the bag (lightly of course)

I THOUGHT I was in decent shape...but come to find out...I wasn't. I just didn't know it till that night.

I used to be able to fight for a long time before burning out...it's like a measuring cup for me....I can see how good I'm doing as far as conditioning by how well I perform.

[canglong]

Vankuen,
The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know. Knowledge is king.

[anerlich]

The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know.

It's more accurately asking what do you know THAT YOU CAN APPLY. If I know I can knock the guy out with a right cross, but I'm too tired to lift my arms, that knowledge is useless.

I can remember many times in BJJ with a bigger stronger partner when I've known how to escape but after ten minutes plus of wrestling have been too exhausted to do it.

[Vankuen]

Exactly, it doesn't matter how many techniques you know or how well you can apply them when you're fresh...if you're tired.

Obviously the point to this thread is to come to the realization that at some point you're going to be exhausted...and the better shape you are in the later that time will be, and the longer you will be able to apply your "knowledge" with some effectiveness.

If you think otherwise...keep dreamin. The day will come for all.

[canglong]

It's more accurately asking what do you know THAT YOU CAN APPLY.At no time should the ability of an opponent be under estimated.Obviously the point to this thread is to come to the realization that at some point you're going to be exhausted...and the better shape you are in the later that time will be, and the longer you will be able to apply your "knowledge" with some effectiveness. Vankuen,
If you KNOW this before hand in the final analysis this too can be attributed to what you know.

[iblis73]

Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each. When I did WT eons ago we had this one guy, big and fat looking. He didnt have long term cardio but in a streetfight, say a 30 second shot, he was a terror-he hit really fast and REALLY hard!

This is sooo perishable too-you stop training for a short period and you lose it fairly quickly.

Hey Van, I know a lot of Nicos students are kinda big and built-how is the overall fitness of the folks your training with/against??

[Stevo]

To say that 'conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight' is a generalisation. I agree on the importance of conditioning, but as has often been said on this forum, conditioning is activity-specific. You need to have enough conditioning to do the job. 'The job' in a street confrontation is not to slug it out for hours with gloves on.

Vankuen said that he thought he was fairly fit until he sparred intensely with gloves on. Lots of sparring with gloves on would increase your stamina for sparring with gloves on. Of course, lots of this stamina would transfer to fighting without gloves, but if you use all the heart and skill that you have in a street confrontation (without gloves), along with a modicum of conditioning, you shouldn’t need anywhere near as much stamina as if you were sparring two-minute rounds for an hour and a half!

Wearing gloves muffles power and inhibits the effectiveness of grabs, chops, bare-knuckle punches, pulls, throws and two or three successive and powerful punches on the same point (no, I don't mean chain punching).

Someone also said that they knew someone who was fearsome over a 30-second period and then ran out of steam. A lot of damage could be done in 30 seconds by someone directing their energy effectively.

A well-conditioned person with little skill might direct their energy ineffectively and therefore be beaten by an unconditioned person with skill. I include the ability to hit hard and accurately as a skill. I agree that heart is important, but the same goes for conditioning - someone with heart and little skill could misdirect their energy (i.e. flail about) and therefore be ineffective in a fight against a person with skill and less heart. But with two skilled people, the one with less skill can win if he has more heart than the other. Spatial and strategic intelligence are also skills which can beat heart or conditioning. In a fight between two people of equal skill, the person with the greatest heart or conditioning should win.

Anyway, I agree with what Victor said about the importance of heart (or will, courage), conditioning and skill, but I'm not sure that skill is always the least important of the three.

Of course the usual caveat applies: all the above is only my personal opinion at this point in time.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

The "asking hand" isn't questioning are you in shape its asking what do you know. Knowledge is king.

**This, in a nutshell, is the theoretician's credo -- "knowledge is king". For theoreticians it always boils down to that. And we can understand how that is related to "history" -- the "knowledge" is passed down in the "magic book" (which contains the "secrets") via a special lineage (the magic book holder). This is why it is so important to how close one gets to the holder of the magic book. It contains things like the "key to unlocking the power of SLT" or "the WCK formula" or whatever. It's always about knowledge.

**Developing greater fighting (WCK) skills -- as the evidence demonstrates (folks that have proven to have good skills shows) -- depends less on what style or method one uses and more on the type and level of training one does. This, of course, does involve "knowledge" too, but of the "self-knowledge" variety -- stuff no one can give you or transmit to you, which comes from actually trying to put our tools to work (realistically) and make them work for us.

[t_niehoff]

Stevo,

Conditioning is a *part* of skill -- and a large part. People like to separate these things but one really can't. Conditioning is more than just being in good physical shape (though that is part of it); it is the level one's body can function at in a fighting environment. If one can't function well in a fighting environment, they won't be able to apply anything they *know*.

It doesn't take skill (conditioning) to sucker punch someone or to pull off a surprise eye poke. But the problem is that if those things fail, if the fight is on -- then what? Skilled fighters prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

[reneritchie]

These threads often seem to get lost in semantics.

What you know is what you can apply in the moment.

You can see something and forget how to do it; remember how to do something in training and not think to use it when the time comes; use something when the time comes and fail in that usage; or you can use it when you need to successfully.

And just because you used it once, doesn't mean it will work next time. So, repeated usability is then the requirement.

And to add a story, one of my sisuk was a product of the early PRC Sport Institutes. He later went to HK, and when he had to fight, found that while he typicallly jumped rope for rounds, his opponents were chain smokers. After a minute, they would gas, and he could just crash them with punches. Won a lot fo fights that way.

But, hopefully people aren't fighting every day, so conditioning is a way to be more healthy, and be able to train in what you enjoy longer and with less risk of injury.

[Vankuen]

You've got the right idea RR, but this thread is not about what you "know" as far as techniques, so there should be no semantics involved. This is cut and dry. You're either in shape (to fight) or you're not...

You can bet on the fight only lasting a few seconds...

or you can train for worst and hope for the best.

The only thing one "knows" of wing chun or any style of fighting right now is what you can apply while in it's element...and the only way you're going to see that is by being in it's element.
You will be suprized at how little you know about yourself. Can you guess exactly how long it will take for you to gas out while performing your techniques full out? Where you can't perform the techniques with any effectiveness? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 2?
Probably not even that long for most of the martial artists out there.

This is more of a question meant for you to answer on your own in all honesty...because it is you who will be fighting alone.

[Vankuen]

Originally posted by iblis73
Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each. When I did WT eons ago we had this one guy, big and fat looking. He didnt have long term cardio but in a streetfight, say a 30 second shot, he was a terror-he hit really fast and REALLY hard!

This is sooo perishable too-you stop training for a short period and you lose it fairly quickly.

Hey Van, I know a lot of Nicos students are kinda big and built-how is the overall fitness of the folks your training with/against??

I'm 5'7", about 160 lbs, in relatively good "shape" as far as musclature goes...there are about 4 guys there that I have met that are in the 200+ weight range, all of them around the 5 10" mark or taller. None of them what you would call muscular big...more like football player big. Just your average big athletic guys. Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously. All of us at some point are dropping to the floor and breathing because we went until we could go no more. It just takes longer then others. I think I got tired the quickest...because of my lack of hard training the last few years. These guys have been doing the circuit at the end of every class which put them a little higher in cardio levels then me...if I remember right...and was going to put an average time as to when a majority of them were tired to the point where you could hit them at will....I would say right around 4 or 5 minutes or so.

[Tydive]

Interesting posts, sounds like most people here understand the need to be "in shape".

Another thing to consider is the difference between spar and fight and how it relates to conditioning. The rule of thumb I used to use in training was that 1 hour of sparing was equal to 1 minute of a real fight. My experience has been that conditioning is critical, and that real fights (or even ring bouts) drain your energy at an amazing rate.

So if you want to win that 20 second fight be able to spar full out for 20 minutes. :D

[anerlich]

Actually come to think of it I think the Singers and Matt Thornton and perhaps even Tony Blauer have addressed this-doing sets of short bursts of about 20-30 seconds each.

The Singer Bros demonstrate this on their "Hardcore Training" DVD. It's called the Tabata protocol, simplistically doing a 20 sec burst of an exercise (sprawl, burpee, squats, etc etc including more activity specific stuff like bagwork) as fast as possible, rest 10 secs, repeat, trying to do more reps each set than the previous. H-A-R-D. Lots of info on Google if anyone wants more.

I read somewhere, that according to the Center for Disease Control, that you are about 100,000 times more likely to die from lifestyle-related heart disease than from a criminal assault.

So if you spend all your time on "Reality Based Self Defense" or whatever it is you do theoretically and technically, and none on staying in condition, your priorities need some serious readdressing.

If you KNOW this before hand in the final analysis this too can be attributed to what you know.

If you word twist enough, yes, but "what you know" still ain't going to help you beat someone if you have no gas in the tank when that asking hand becomes the insisting hand and says "DEAL WITH THIS, SUCKER!" And knowing you're going to gas out at some stage is common sense, not knowledge to most of us, though YMMV.

[anerlich]

The point about conditioning being activity specific is well taken.

Pugilism, standing grappling and groundfighting all have different conditioning requirements, and to a significant degree these are not transferable one to another, though general cardio fitness still helps.

[Paniero]

Originally posted by anerlich

Pugilism, standing grappling and groundfighting all have different conditioning requirements, and to a significant degree these are not transferable one to another, though general cardio fitness still helps.

I agree. I think that with boxing and grappling arts, conditioning is more important because an extended fight is the norm, not the exception. Although I don't know much about WC, I know firsthand about fighting; in my experience, adrenaline replaces endurance and skill and intelligence are of primary importance. Conditioning will not be an issue unless you let it become one since you'll both be breathing heavy after a few moments in an unexpected encounter.

Outside of a tournament or ring, you will rarely see a fight between two people of high skill. Most times you may have one person that knows a little of something, and the opponent maybe a little more, but either way, once the clash begins, it still looks like a scuffle on a playground unless it is finished by the person of a higher skill quickly.

I wish I trained with you, Van. We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Paniero
We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own. Why waste time doing cardio in class?? You can do cardio on your own. In class you have others to train with, to work on skill development. you need two people to chi sao or spar with, you can run or skip rope or whatever on your own. Get up an hour earlier and hit the road. :)

[iblis73]

Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously.

Hey, is that little Frank? LOL, if so hes probably past me up-me and a couple of the guys (shane valero,rob f,dr wayne) were the ones who trained Frank and a lot of the other of Parkers students.

Van is right on imo on the conditioning angle. I also would say that one who maintains that sort of readiness also has a better life-my dad is 71 and often walks 5 miles a day and does 4-500 push ups a day. His health is superb, esp compared to others younger than him.

Maybe I'll drop by one of these weeks-when do the guys train there? I'm assuming they are still over on broadway.

[Vankuen]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Paniero
We don't do any cardio in class, so I have to do it on my own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why waste time doing cardio in class?? You can do cardio on your own. In class you have others to train with, to work on skill development. you need two people to chi sao or spar with, you can run or skip rope or whatever on your own. Get up an hour earlier and hit the road.


Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself. By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results.

Jumping rope and running are great for an overall conditioning, but will not yield the same results as above. You body adapts based on familiarity and muscle memory/repition of a said movement. If you jump rope all the time, you'll get better at jumping rope, but not necessarily hitting someone full out for 10 minutes.

**Paniero - perhaps there are other people there who are of the same mindset as some of us on here and would be willing to go some rounds with you? All you have to do is ask around. Look for the guy there that's in good shape (if there is one) and see if he will go some rounds with you, with light gloves on of course and some pulling of the power punches. The guy on here you might want to talk to is Ultimate, he is relatively close to you and would be more then willing to help you out...just tell him I sent ya!

[Vankuen]

Originally posted by iblis73
Nico and another si hing frank are about my size and muscularture give or take a little in height and weight, but are in the best shape and are the most skilled there obviously.

Hey, is that little Frank? LOL, if so hes probably past me up-me and a couple of the guys (shane valero,rob f,dr wayne) were the ones who trained Frank and a lot of the other of Parkers students.

Van is right on imo on the conditioning angle. I also would say that one who maintains that sort of readiness also has a better life-my dad is 71 and often walks 5 miles a day and does 4-500 push ups a day. His health is superb, esp compared to others younger than him.

Maybe I'll drop by one of these weeks-when do the guys train there? I'm assuming they are still over on broadway.

Same place Iblis, tues/thurs 7-9pm, sat 12-2 pm.

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen wrote:

Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself.

**Exactly -- it's activity specific as Andrew pointed out. If someone tells me they aren't getting "cardio in class", I'd tell them they are wasting their time.

By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results.

**This is why conditioning is a part, one aspect, of skill -- you can't get good without fighting, you need to be in good condition to fight, the best way to get into good fighting condition is by fighting, etc. If you don't fight, then you aren't in good condition regardless of your fitness level.

Jumping rope and running are great for an overall conditioning, but will not yield the same results as above. You body adapts based on familiarity and muscle memory/repition of a said movement. If you jump rope all the time, you'll get better at jumping rope, but not necessarily hitting someone full out for 10 minutes.

**As individuals, we have individual needs. Some people need more or supplemental activity in certain specific areas; others don't. And those needs change with age, level, etc. The only way to know what those are for you is by evaluating your results -- if you find that you keep getting winded while fighting, then do more supplemental cardio.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Ahhhh Matrix, the best prep exercise is the exercise itself. By that statement if one wants to attain a higher level of conditioning fighting with wing chun against a resisting opponent, then one needs to spar against resisting opponents consistantly to get the best results. Of course, training is specific. My point is that if you don't have someone to train with you can do cardio solo. I don't give a crap if you run, skip, hit the speed bag or heavy bag. Also, the body adapts over time so it's good to mix things up. Just don't cry that you don't have someone else to train with.

[sihing]

Been lacking the internet connection the last week and half, but it was a good break away.....

IMO,
1)SKILL

2)WILL

3)TACTICS OR TECHNIQUE

4)CONDITIONING

is the order I would place on what determines the course of a fight/person defending themselves. Of course we need to be able to lift our arms and legs and use them in some form of efficient and effective movement, but this is taught at the learning stage and developed over time. I myself do no cardio and I realize that my ability to last over a period of time is limited compared to a person that is conditioned cardiovascularly, but I do have efficient movement and effective movement which requires less effort to perform, and the skill level in performing these movements is also high which means the "engine is well oiled" and less resistance is present.

When in completions where rules are enforced, then conditioning is more of a factor due to the fact that limitations in what can be done and how it can be done is there, therefore more work will be required to get the job done.

Also, intensity of the situation where physical self defense is required also is a factor. As I've said many times before on this forum protecting one's family from harm is much more of a motivating factor than a "thug" on the street giving me a hassle for some change. Personally I'm more of a person that rises to the occasion and reacts according to the situation at hand.

So, IMO FWIW, conditioning is important but being physically fit is not the determining factor, but being conditioned in your art, knowing it well, understanding every aspect of it, and utilizing surprise as one of your tactics will help far more than how many miles you can run or how many punches you can throw in 5 minutes..


James

[kj]

Luck it is! And as Thomas Jefferson and crimsonking both point out, the more effort invested the more luck improves.

Great to see you back and posting again, Crimson!

Regards,
- kj

[t_niehoff]

There is certainly an element of luck in any fighting situation but it is not the "predominant" element -- if it were, higher skilled fighters would not so reliably and predictably defeat lesser-skilled fighters (though there is an *occassional* upset).

Instead of theorizing on how important we believe conditioining is, why not see for yourself? It's fairly simple to determine. Or, if you are resistant to the idea of actually mixing it up, just look at any really skilled fighter and see how important conditioning is to them. You know, look to evidence instead of theory.

[reneritchie]

There's an old quote, echoed by many professional fighters:

"The harder I train, the luckier I get"


[edited for those an@l types who don't comprehend 'typos']

[t_niehoff]

crimsonking wrote:

Venue is important. You've said yourself that conditioning is highly specific - for example grappling making different demands to striking - it's also true that conditioning 'for the street' is different to conditioning for the ring\mat\cage. If you're training for competition, you're correct - luck isn't the issue, and conditioning becomes very important indeed. A competition fighter should adjust their training to the rules and format of the competition they are competing in.

IMO for the street - you need to be quick on your feet, and be able to destroy your opponent so you don't have a long drawn out fight. So, skill, power, and mindset become more important.

**In the ring you also need to be "quick on your feet, and able to destroy your opponent"; it's not the venue that determines whether or not it is a "long, drawn-out fight" but the caliber of your opposition. In the ring, for example, you're dealing with a trained, conditioned fighter whereas "in the street" you're typically dealing with an untrained, unconditioned guy. And that's why it can be over so quick. Put two unmatched (in terms of skill) folks in a ring and it will be over quick too.

Of course - conditioning is still important, but i'm with Ernie on this one - you should be fit for life. In the course of regular wing chun training you should get a basic level of conditioning anyway - after all, it is a physical activity

**I agree that being fit is important for our overall health and happiness. Being conditioned -- that is having our body prepared for our activity -- is something else.

The current feeling on this forum seems to be that there is a division between two camps. It's really not that simple.

**I agree with you.

I do not have a sports orientation, free sparring is not part of my wing chun training, and i don't train to fight on a mat or in a ring, or wearing gloves, a gi or spandex. This does NOT mean shying away from hard, painful, physical training.

**It's not a question of how "hard, painful or physical" the training is; it's the nature of the training that matters. One can do dryland swimming until they bleed but they still won't become good swimmers. Our ancestors in WCK didn't have the protective equipment that we do today so they couldn't "spar" or "fight" as part of their training (without killing one another). Yet, they still recongnized that to get good one had to fight. Yip told his students to "go out and test it for yourself." The ones that developed skill, like Wong Sheung Leung and some others, did just that. YKS set up regular fights for Sum Nung as part of his training. They did the best they could given their situation. Nor did our ancestors have the level of fighters that we do today -- they are more conditioned (because they can be), with greater attributes, with really good training, with differing skills than they faced, etc. The times have changed, and we can keep up or not.

"Resistant to the idea of mixing it up" is really not the issue. In relation to wing chun - 'Traditional' should mean 'blood on the floor', not titles, sashes and funny uniforms.

**"Traditional" for me means "how it has been done in the past".

[t_niehoff]

crimsonking wrote:

Competition venues do favour long-drawn out fights - things like padding, rounds, referees, corner men, gloves and rules make real destruction less likely.

**What makes "real destruction" less likely is that the competitors are in better condition so they are more difficult to hurt, are better skilled so they are better able to avoid being hurt, and in these situations "taps" or "throwing in the towel" or referree intervention is permitted (able to stop before someone gets hurt). Lots of "sport fighters" have had "streetfights, and they end very quickly -- not because of the lack of padding, lack of rounds, referrees, cornermen, gloves, rules, etc. but because they outclassed the opposition in skill. For example, Tyson knocking out the two guys in the parking lot -- these guys weren't good fighters, they couldn't take a punch, avoid a punch, etc.

Exactly, that's what i'm saying - we need to define "our activity". Mine is certainly not yours. Therefore your training - and prioritisation of conditioning for competition, is not mine. No problem.

**Yes, we do need to define our "activity" and condition ourself for that activity. As WCK is a fighting method, it would seem to me that conditioning for fighting with that method is essential.

In a sports fight - perhaps conditioning is "the deciding factor". In a street fight, perhaps not. Again - conditioning is specific.

**This is one problem with doing anything for "streetfighting" -- it is all theoretical, because unless we are going out and fighting in the street, how do we *know* we are getting good results from our training or that these things will work? It's all guesswork, inference, theory. Another problem with "streetfighting" is there is no way to guage the level of the opposition in these "tests", so what works "out on the street" for us in some encounter may have worked only because our opponent was really bad, not because our technique or attributes were good.

Regarding labels - we almost agree! There has been a tendency for people in the 'sports\sparring' camp to label those not in it as somehow unprepared to go through that sort of training. It's a testostorone-fuelled "toughman" mentality that's not very productive - this is not a ****ing contest.

**We can all fight. We can fight before ever taking up WCK. One important issue is whether or not our training, whatever it is, is significantly increasing our ability to fight. And we need to know that -- because if it isn't, we can adjust our training (assuming this is our goal). How can we know? There is only one way: by fighting, and by fighting with skilled opposition. Anything else is purely theoretical (inferring from chi sao, for example). Believing that your biu jee will work in a fight is theory -- anything you haven't done is theory. My POV is to assume all theory is wrong until I see it work in genuine application for myself; this way when the sh1t goes down, I know what I can and cannot do, I know my level of preparation. It's not theory to me.

You're correct about the true meaning of traditional, the term has been abused here as part of this division into camps. Then there's Traditional (TM) lol.

**IMO there is an inverse relationship between the stressing of tradition and effectiveness. That's because if someone can make it work, they don't need to place great emphasis on how traditional it is. Folks stress "traditional" as a way of saying "if it's traditional, it must be good." Theory.

I've never heard of fights in the street going for very long. But don't ask me, look to the evidence - go hang outside some bars or interview people in casualty on a saturday night. I'm aware that street fights are not equivalent to ring fights in terms of opposition, i'll let that slide for the moment.

**The last "streetfight" I was in ended with one punch; I've never had a training (fighting) situation end in one punch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by crimsonking
I do not have a sports orientation, free sparring is not part of my wing chun training, and i don't train to fight on a mat or in a ring, or wearing gloves, a gi or spandex. This does NOT mean shying away from hard, painful, physical training. "Resistant to the idea of mixing it up" is really not the issue. If you don't do any sparring, then how are you going about "mixing it up" in your training?

[Airdrawndagger]

Everyone has touched on good points but I think 7-10 times conditioning IS the deciding factor.
If you take two people with equal skill, luck, and determination and pit them against each other, the one who is in better shape will win.
Even if you pit one person with better skill against someone who is in better shape than the one who is in better shape is favored to win. Why? When was the last time you got into a "real" fight? You were probably tired as H*ll in a very short period of time (i know i was!). Being tired just limits your skill and ability and even though your a master if you run out of gas and can not lift your limbs, then all the skill in the world wont save you, but conditioning will. So i guess with me anyway I see fighting as an undetermined event, with undetermined factors that will only be realized at the moment of physical contact. So if I were a wise man I would at least like to rule out (to the best of my ability) my own conditioning as being a deciding factor of the fight. You have enough things to worry about like getting hurt or killed, let alone whether or not I can keep up with the other guy!:eek:

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While I certainly would agree that conditioning is important and desirible, I do not agree that conditioning is the overall deciding factor in a "street fight". I think that a real street fight is often one in which the first blow comes as a surprise and may involve a weapon. I think that the proper mindset is more important that overall conditioning. IMHO, if you get into a fight on the street and it takes so long that your physical condition comes into play as the deciding factor then both you and your opponent need to go back to school. In my experience most street fights are over very quickly and often involve brutal illegal techniques which would offset conditioning anyhow. Tell me, if you are struck in the throat or eyes, or with a club or knife, is your conditioning going to be what saves you?? Again, conditioning is important but not as important as the proper mindset and the willingness to employ your techniques in the most brutal fashion possible. There are many cases where a well conditioned person is brutally attacked by a less conditioned person and loses.

A street fighter will train to employ the most effective and devasting method available to him/her. They will use their time to perfect this attack. Often the initial attack will never be seen but is will be felt. Now you can argue about the added benefit that good conditioning will provide, and no arguement there, but I again doubt that a real street fight will last very long, unless both parties are extremely inept, in which case it may be fun to watch.
:D

One of the nice things about Wing Chun is that it provides a very effective method of combat for the average person or even the less than average person. Our system does not rely on great physical conditoning nor perfect human body structure to be effective. Why is it that there are old people who can utilize and apply arts like Wing Chun in real life encounters. Surely it is not their superior physical conditioning. If I needed to be in great shape to make Wing Chun work then I would walk away and buy a gun or use a weapon.

Now there is a benefit to being in good physical condition and if one has the time to devote to training this aspect properly then one should certainly do so. However, with limited time available it might be better to practice the most effective and brutal techniques and train the mind to deliver them. You should also mentally prepare yourself to fight if you get hit first and or injured.

If you believe that your superior physical conditioning is really the deciding factor in a street fight, not a ring fight, then, IMHO you are deceiving yourself and will be very surprised if you ever find yourself on the receiving end of an attack. It may contribute to your survivial but the fight really should not last that long.

Peace,

Dave

[Vankuen]

Hey Dave,

Remember that in the very first post, I asked

" Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds....what if the other person's skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then? "

...that being said...the question was what if...and should that be the case, conditioning comes into play. IDEALLY, you're correct, and fights in "real" life should not last that long. But if they do...I think you will come to see things differently. Also consider that most people in "real" fights, get winded within 30 seconds, if you haven't finished your guy off within the first flurry...you're going to be done if you didn't actually train to fight and have to throw more then 10 punches.

Now it's not hard to train for conditioning as well...as any well made martial arts fighter will do...you could do it with 30 minutes a day of strong hard training....not too much to ask I would think.

Anyway...this is something that I just wanted people to think about before having to come to the realization after they got their butts kicked because that thought all their fights would be with people who were easily disposed of.

But hey...to each their own.

BTW....how many "old" people have you seen in a real fight?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
BTW....how many "old" people have you seen in a real fight? What do you consider to be "old"?
BTW, are these "old" people the same ones as those who are easily disposed of? :D

[Sihing73]

Hello Vankuen,

I would think you would need to be in pretty bad condition to be unable to fight after only 30 seconds. I also think that it is highly unlikely to run into highly skilled highly conditioned martial artists on the street who are looking for trouble. Most people of that level seem to be more apt to avoid then fight. Kind of like th old time gunfighters or Samuria. While duels did take place, since the most likely outcome was mutual injury or killing I think it was more often avoided then not, but hey that is just my thought on the matter.

Just to give you a frame of reference on where I draw my POV: I used to be a Police Officer. I worked as a Philadelphia House Police Officer and then as a PA State Police Trooper. In addition I have taught defensive tactics at one of the County Prisons.

As to how many old people I have seen in fights: The sad fact is that I have seen several old people injured as a result of being attacked and not having a realistic approach to combat. Same to be said for some women who did not have the proper mindset to actually apply what was needed to ward off an attacker.

I am all for conditioning if you have the time for it. I am not for the fantasy BS that many people adhere to when it comes to fighting. You may be great in the ring but the street is a different animal. I know of many people who are much much better than me in Wing Chun or other arts, but who I would not want to watch my back in a real life encounter. I remember one guy who was supposed to be this great FMA's guy and good with a knife. When we worked out he complained that I did not fight fair. Maybe because he kept getting "cut". (Using rubber knives of course). Now his "technique" was much better than mine and on a technical level he could "kill" me. On a real life level, he would die in less than a few seconds or at the least be seriously maimed. He could outlast me if I played his game but not if I played mine.

One of the first things I drill into my students is that I CHEAT!!! ;)
I will make every attempt not to fight your fight and to take you out very quickly and brutally. In all of the "street fights" I have been in I don't think any lasted longer than 10-20 seconds, if that, once a bridge had been established. In several of these encounters, I had to continue fighting after being injured and believe me if I tried to outlast the opponent I would not be here today. There are many people better than me and in better condition, but there are not too many who are as sneaky :p

Peace,

Dave

[Airdrawndagger]

Well I guess we all have different POV on this subject and we could throw around the ole "what if" sinario about a trillion times.
Sihing73, I respect the fact that you are/were a cop and have a lot of experience with this type of situation but all i can do is speak from my personal experience and I know that conditioning was definetly a factor. I suppose there are many instances where one guy looks at another guys girl at a bar and they exchange words, then shove one another and swing a few times on each other before its broken up. Probably one of the more common cases with a million variations, but...
WHAT IF:D Your attacked from behind and knocked to the ground, or grabbed, or surrounded, or forced to RUN because you are being chased! Then it becomes a different game in which strength and conditioning will be a HUGE factor.
BUT of course, if you are one with your wing chun skills then you may dispatch of the foes with little or no effort and with out breaking a sweat while reading a newspaper...but im not there yet, and I know that if I sharpen my body as well as my mind then I will be that much more prepared for the unexpected.
I could always be shot... then whats the use of any wing chun skills at all? Ima go out and buy a big gun:p

[sihing]

The argument that even a person with good skill will still lose to a person with much less skill but good conditioning is false IMO. Why? How does one gain skill in the first place? By practicing, and since in the beginning WC is a physical exercise, physical conditioning will improve in a whole bunch of areas as by product of practice. In our kwoon we have 1 conditioning class a night, which lasts 1 hour and is super intense, but this in not a prerequisite of success in the system. If one choose not to participate in the conditioning classes and just come to the 2 skill classes every night they will improve their individual conditioning (cardiovascular level, flexibility level, strength and power levels), just that it is not the focus of the class. Now, once the "skill" and therefore conditioning is there, then all you have to do is maintain it, which is easier than getting it. I know this because I live it. Yes my overall abilities would greatly improve if I decided to participate in the conditioning classes, but I started to ask myself how fast is fast enough, how hard is hard enough (regarding punching/kicking power), how flexible does one have to be (can one do the splits cold?). I realized for myself based on my own truthful judgments of my own abilities that enough was enough and that the skills and tools were there, and therefore other things could be concentrated on, like working on tactics and strategies, etc...

Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a "skilled based" MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina, which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts. Animals use physical abilities to overcome one another or other predators, human beings use their wits, intelligence and superior brain power to overcome their enemies or other predators trying to destroy them.

Don't get me wrong, as I do agree that if the skills are the same then the one with superior speed or strength will have an advantage, but how often will you meet someone in a reality situation that has WC or something similar to WC type skills? Nil.


James

[Sihing73]

Originally posted by Airdrawndagger
WHAT IF:D Your attacked from behind and knocked to the ground, or grabbed, or surrounded, or forced to RUN because you are being chased! Then it becomes a different game in which strength and conditioning will be a HUGE factor.
:p

Hello Airdrawndagger,

In this scenerio I would agree, if you can run away then you stand a better chance if you are in running condition. Avoidance is always better than confrontation, imho. But don't get me started on the three ways to deal with any attack, 1) Avoid 2) Evade 3) Intercept as not everyone will agree with this nor even on the definitions of each aspect. :rolleyes:

Consider this, how do you conditon yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle?? Is the ability to continue and respond to this type of attack more physical or more mental? One can not condition oneself to withstand the impact of a bullet yet there are numerous examples where someone is shot multiple times and lives and someone else gets shot once and dies. Check out some of the stories of people being shot in what should have been lethal spots yet living. There are plenty of examples if you dig for them. Gaudalcanal (forgive my spelling) is one example. What is it that enabled these people to survive? Physical or mental or both?

My only problem with people relying too heavily on conditioning being the deciding factor is akin to the old adage that if you are attacked you just kick the guy in the groin and it will stop them. Not always true and now what do you do if it does not work?? IMHO, the state and "condition" of your mind is far more important than your physical condition in many cases.

Don't fight their fight and don't be afraid to fight dirty. If someone attacks you or a loved one they have given up any consideration about fair play, and I want the fight over as quick as I can. I am not going to stick around and see if I can outfight or outlast you. I am going to "cheat" and do what I can to destroy you. Of course if in the process I can safely run away I will do so but hopefully my attacker will not be in much of a position nor inclined to pursue me. Of course if they have a gun I'm pretty much screwed. :( Again just my opinion.

Differing POV are fine and discussions like this on the internet are kind of pointless as everyone already has their own preconceived ideas. It is unlikely that anyone will change anyone elses mind. No matter what one does or how one trains remember that Wing Chun does provide the tools and mindset to be quite effective. It is the person practicing the art that either takes advantage of the tools or does not. Like I tell my students, we all have the same 26 characters of the alphabet to use. How come some people can write great novels or poetry and others can't? It all depends on what you do with what you are given. Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the most successful writers often break all the rules of grammer. Perhaps showing us that rules are only guidelines and allowing us to think outside of the box.

Peace,

Dave

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a 'skilled based' MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina..." (sihing)

.................................................. .............................

James:

I hate to break this news to you - but most martial arts have skill attributes constituting the majority of it's repertoire.

.................................................. ...................................


"...which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts." (sihing)

.................................................. .................................


Again...Wing Chun has no monopoly on timing, sensitivity, distance control and eye perception.

All good martial arts try to cultivate these skills.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"Another problem with the preposition that a skilled fighter will always lose to a conditioned fighter, is the fact that WC is a 'skilled based' MA, which to me means that skill attributes constitute the majority of it's repertoire, not physically based attributes like speed or strength or stamina..." (sihing)

.................................................. .............................

James:

I hate to break this news to you - but most martial arts have skill attributes constituting the majority of it's repertoire.

.................................................. ...................................


"...which all will leave you faster once training stops than skill based attributes like timing, sensitivity, distance control, eye perception, and every other tactic/technique/concept that WC uses that most other MA neglect. Skill in WC is different than skill in most other MA just because this is the whole idea behind the WC art, superior Skills and Concepts." (sihing)

.................................................. .................................


Again...Wing Chun has no monopoly on timing, sensitivity, distance control and eye perception.

All good martial arts try to cultivate these skills.

All good Martial Artists don't try to cultivate these things because they don't even realize they exist. Over the last 16yrs or so of training/teaching experience I can't tell you all how many times I've revealed simple WC concepts and strategies to people with previous MA/fighting experience and them saying things like "Wow, I've never thought about it like that" or "That make allot of sense". Its not about WC having a monopoly on these concepts, it’s about the other MA not even recognizing them. For example, Karate skills are different than Wing Chun skills. We just had a student rejoin the school, after comparing WC with Shotokan Karate. He first took 4 months of Shotokan, then 4 months of WC with us, then another 4 months of shotokan again to which he just completed and came back to us and joined for 1 yr. While he was back at the shotokan for his last 4 month venture, he entered a tournament and won his class in the sparring event, I believe it was orange belt level. At that time he only had equal time in both Shotokan and Wing Chun. He said his WC helped allot in the sparring as the basic techniques enhanced his ability to defend and score a point on his opponents. Another student who moved out of the city for work, came back to visit for the holidays and related a story. His roommate is a 2nd degree Black Belt in Karate and offered the student the opportunity to come down to his school to train if he wanted to. The student took him up on his offer, just to get some training in, and after two classes the roommate decided to enter the student into Karate tournament in Vancouver, BC. The student won the Brown Belt sparring division, and entered the Black Belt Sparring division and won Gold there too, with only 2 Karate classes under his belt and 2 years of intense WC training under his belt also. The point is, skill sets in various arts is different, and the fact of the matter is some arts emphasize strength/speed more than skill in the actual technique of there particular art. Besides all that WC movement and concepts are at a skill/effectiveness level many levels above most MA out there today, IMO.

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual, because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it. All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.

James

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual,

**Therein lies the problem -- the "art" is not effective in and of itself or by itself (WCK doesn't deal with a punch, you do), it is the person that is effective or not. It is the person that uses WCK. Conditioning makes the person better able to use their WCK (fight). No matter how well-designed a car may be, it doesn't run by itself.

because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it.

**It works both ways -- anyone can learn to defend themselves too. Conditioning is more than fitness or "shape". Conditioning is a part of skill.

All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.

**It's not just a matter of *knowing* how to defend ourselves, it is being able to defend ourselves that matters. To physically perform. Our performance level depends on our conditioning level; they go hand-in-hand. If you have any doubt, you can see for yourself by fighting with folks of different skill levels.

----------------

sihing73 wrote:

My only problem with people relying too heavily on conditioning being the deciding factor is akin to the old adage that if you are attacked you just kick the guy in the groin and it will stop them. Not always true and now what do you do if it does not work?? IMHO, the state and "condition" of your mind is far more important than your physical condition in many cases.

**See above. Conditioning is your body's ability to perform. How can that not be significant? It doesn't matter if your mind says do it but your body can't.

Don't fight their fight and don't be afraid to fight dirty. If someone attacks you or a loved one they have given up any consideration about fair play, and I want the fight over as quick as I can. I am not going to stick around and see if I can outfight or outlast you. I am going to "cheat" and do what I can to destroy you.

**Ane they may be doing the same thing. It may be over quickly -- what folks don't realize is that the better condition we are in, the better our chances to end things quickly. And if it does go on, we can still stay the course. The only people who argue about how conditioining isn't critical are those people who never fight; you never hear fighters saying that. Of course, we can ignore the opinion of those with the experience and just realy on our theory. . . .

Of course if in the process I can safely run away I will do so but hopefully my attacker will not be in much of a position nor inclined to pursue me. Of course if they have a gun I'm pretty much screwed. Again just my opinion.

**Great theory.

Differing POV are fine and discussions like this on the internet are kind of pointless as everyone already has their own preconceived ideas. It is unlikely that anyone will change anyone elses mind.

**I agree with you completely. That's why folks need to test their theories -- because all theories are equal, there is no way to prove one is right or another wrong. But you can see whether or not you can do it.

No matter what one does or how one trains remember that Wing Chun does provide the tools and mindset to be quite effective.

**Theory.

It is the person practicing the art that either takes advantage of the tools or does not. Like I tell my students, we all have the same 26 characters of the alphabet to use. How come some people can write great novels or poetry and others can't? It all depends on what you do with what you are given.

**Hence the need for conditioning.

Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the most successful writers often break all the rules of grammer. Perhaps showing us that rules are only guidelines and allowing us to think outside of the box.

**The other thing is good writers get that way by writing, not by doing writing drills.

[Ernie]

Simple math

Conditioning + skill is > just skill

why would anyone want to be '' less than ? "

this enitre argument is just silly , just that old martial art fantasy of the little old guy beating up the steriod giant ,

all the bs i saw my sifu do it tons of time crap , what in chi sau ? in a little demo ?

just because a person is visually fit dose not mean they have coordination for a fighting type activity

but when you run into a athlete that has conditioning and body unity even with out [ magic wing chun training ] that person is connected and heavy , he will have sensitivity , timing . intent and commitment .

i would much rather fight any non conditioned chi sau master in a bar then any football , basket ball player

training you attributes is all about amping up your skills .problem is any ''SIFU"" that has never fought or trained fighters to really use the system has no clue on how to bring this out , so they lie ! any one that has pressure tested and has any type of pressure testing in there training [ not fixed response tag drills ] will allways seek any edge they can .

why ?

because the have one simple goal to take out the person in front of them , there not robots trying to make techniques work

you don't get good at that by being a less than !!

keep feeding the lie people if it helps you sleep better ;)

it makes things much easier for me

in fact take your own advise never get in shape please :p

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Again I would ask how you condition yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle? Again I would ask which is more important with limited time, physical or mental toughness??

While conditioning is certainly advatageous and desirible I still think that if you are depending on your superior condtioning to carry the day in a real fight you are living in a fantasy world. Of course if you want to fight in the ring or play spar then you can afford to wear your opponent out. Try this for real and tell me the results, unless your opponent is pretty pathetic I doubt your fight will go long enough for your conditioning to play a mahjor factor.

Now, having said that do not misunderstand me to be totally agains the idea of conditioning. Perhaps one should consider what is meant by conditioning. You get better at doing something by doing it. If you want to shoot better baskets that is what you practice. While being in better cardio condition or stronger can be advantageous it, by itself, will not make you any better at sinking the ball through that little hoop.

If you fight on the street and have the wrong mental attitude then your physical condition will not carry the day. If you rely on your body condition to make your WC effective then as you get older you lose your superiority, so then what do you have to fall back on?? Or do you consider practicing proper structure and punching to fit your definitition of conditioning?

Being in excellent condition is not a negative, but having the mindset that your better physical condition is the key to your success in a real street fight is a detriment, imho. Like anything else there are many pieces to success and being a complete fighter. Physical condition is just one aspect and not necessarily the most important. If one has a limited amount of time to train then there are other aspects which you may find serve you better in a real fight. Now if you want to enter the UFC and the like then by all means get into the best physical condition you can. But for the average person who has a family, job and other responsibilities, do the most with the least effort.

I totally agree with Ernie when he says "just because a person is visually fit dose not mean they have coordination for a fighting type activity" So perhaps we need to rethink our definition of just what type of conditioning is important for a real fight.

BTW: I am always open to allowing people who visit with me or train with me to attack me in any manner they wish. I do not ask for them to through this punch or that kick but whatever they want. My response is definitely not reliant on my conditioning. Instead I have had people turn away because they thought it was too brutal and they did not have the stomach for it. So what part of their conditioning is lacking in this aspect? Can you do what you need to do to win on the street? If you are not prepared to do whatever it takes then whether or not you are in condition will have little effect in the final scheme of things.

Oh, I almost forgot, when I started to reply I was thinking of several of the "exceptions" to the rule. For example look at Samo Hung and the older George Foreman. Neither is what I would call the picture of perfect conditioning, yet I doubt many of us on this forum would be able to walk in and wipe the floor with them despite being younger and in better shape.

So in summary here are my thoughts:

1) Physical Conditioning is an assett if you have the time to devote to it.
2) Mental Attitude is more important than physical conditon and even sometimes skill.
3) Real fights don't last very long. If they do then someone has messed up.
4) Real fights come without warning. Sometimes you get hit or cut before you even realize you are in a fight.
5) Both sides of the "debate" are just as guilty as believing that they have the "one true answer" to surviving a confrontation. And neither side has a monopoly on the right answer.
6) There are exceptions to every rule. Sometimes being in better condition will make the difference and sometimes it won't.
7) Fighting in the ring, class or in demos is not the same as fighting on the street. If you do not have the right attituce it won't matter how "good" you are. You better be able to fight on after experiencing the shock of getting hit or injured.
8) No one really knows how they will react or do in a real situation until they actually face one. While you can do everything possible to prepare, in the end it comes down to what you are prepared for at that moment. Why is it that some people can get shot and fight on and others take a punch in the face and crumble?
9) Talk and posting on the internet are cheap. Believe me I am about as cheap as they come. :p

There are many people who teach B*S* but there are just as many who think they have the right answer based on false experience or expectations.

Question everything and don't be afraid to open your eyes to other methods or opinions.

Peace,

Dave

[Ernie]

Hello,

Again I would ask how you condition yourself to take a hit in the head with a 40 bottle? Again I would ask which is more important with limited time, physical or mental toughness??


Dave

conditioning is not just about the speed and power , it's more about skills the attributes that make thos skills work

reflex , timing ,toughness both mental and physical conditioning your pain levels ,

the ability to adapt , sesitivity under fire these are all part of conditioning ,

you can isolate and build these things

so what if your 50 years old and have great structure if all it takes is a knee to the thigh and you drop from the pain since you have not conditioned for it --for example


and to be honest that getting old analogy is a load of crap in my book ,

sure you slow up , but i have trained with very conditoned 50 and 60 year olds that had more juce then out of shape 20-30 year olds

there just not lazy , they have a work ethic and respect for there bodies

people like that are way more impressive then the pot bellied or frail excuse for a martial artist

if you body and mind are your weapon

then you should keep them as sharp as possible

what the worse thing that can happen , you improve the quality of your life hahhahahaa
:D :D

[sihing]

As usual this debate comes down to how we individually define the term "Conditioning", to me it more reflects the physical attributes of the person, not the skill. But some define the word including the skills. Some with great structure will not be able to defend the kick to the thigh if that is all they know. It's like when I teach beginners the SLT, I tell them what it's there for and then finish it off by stating that if the SLT is all you practice you will have no ability to defend yourself, regardless of how much you practice it, but combine it with other things and the SLT becomes the base foundation from where it all starts.

Terence,

IMO methods can make the difference to a great degree. The way Japan conducted business was much different before that guy went over there and taught them about quality control and other things, which eventually turned around the whole economic outlook of that country, making it an economic super giant for many years. Methods do matter, and IMO WC is a very effective method of self defense, but I do agree with you when you say that it is up to the individual to be able to perform it when necessary, but this applies to any MA or fighting/self defense method they try to learn. Why wouldn't someone not be able to perform and use WC but be able to use another MA? Movement is movement, some pick it up faster than others yes, but sooner or later everyone can learn it. I've taught kids with ADD Wing Chun, it was a long process, but after a long period of practice, there was a definite improvement in how they executed the movements and also in other areas of their life, as compared to when they first started learning.

Being in shape physically should be a part of everyone's life as Ernie says, just for the fact that it is good for your overall health, but I don't agree that it is absolutely necessary to be in tip top physical condition to be able to defend one's self. Yes I too would rather fight a fat chi-sao master, than a pro basketball, football athlete, if that is all the chi-sao master practiced, but a true "WC master" should know more than just chi-sao. Also what are the chances of meeting a world class athlete on the street in a confrontation anyways? If I were one the last thing I would want to do is risk damage to my body (my golden meal ticket per say) in a street confrontation.


Sihing73- Good post....

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
All good Martial Artists don't try to cultivate these things because they don't even realize they exist. Its not about WC having a monopoly on these concepts, it’s about the other MA not even recognizing them.

I disagree. Alot of MA share concepts with other styles. the issue is that the style doesn't take the time to name it. Ask a judo guy what Peng is - he can't tell you. When he does certain throws though, it's there. Ask a thai boxer, judo guy or bjj guy what yielding and borrowing are - they can't tell you, but once they see it, can show you how they apply the same principle. Because the formal definition isn't there does not mean that the principle isn't there.


For example, Karate skills are different than Wing Chun skills. We just had a student rejoin the school, after comparing WC with Shotokan Karate. He first took 4 months of Shotokan, then 4 months of WC with us, then another 4 months of shotokan again to which he just completed and came back to us and joined for 1 yr. While he was back at the shotokan for his last 4 month venture, he entered a tournament and won his class in the sparring event, I believe it was orange belt level. At that time he only had equal time in both Shotokan and Wing Chun. He said his WC helped allot in the sparring as the basic techniques enhanced his ability to defend and score a point on his opponents.

orange belt is like the third rank in shotokan... assuming that the other people in his division had never trained anything else, then they had very limited experience and exposure anyway. He had more, which worked to his advantage.

Another student who moved out of the city for work, came back to visit for the holidays and related a story. His roommate is a 2nd degree Black Belt in Karate and offered the student the opportunity to come down to his school to train if he wanted to. The student took him up on his offer, just to get some training in, and after two classes the roommate decided to enter the student into Karate tournament in Vancouver, BC. The student won the Brown Belt sparring division, and entered the Black Belt Sparring division and won Gold there too, with only 2 Karate classes under his belt and 2 years of intense WC training under his belt also. The point is, skill sets in various arts is different, and the fact of the matter is some arts emphasize strength/speed more than skill in the actual technique of there particular art. Besides all that WC movement and concepts are at a skill/effectiveness level many levels above most MA out there today, IMO.

I've got a similar story. A WC instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring tourney - he got mauled by a brown belt in karate. The winner of the tournament ended up being a tkd black belt. This year, my thai coach entered one. He beat all of the JMA and CMA who entered and won the tournament. There's really no point to such examples though, as anyone has the potential to win in such an event on any given day.

The majority of my posts concentrate on one thing, the effectiveness of the art practiced, not on the individual attributes of the individual, because anyone can get into shape, condition themselves for a competition or personal reasons, not everyone can move effectively or defend themselves effectively if not exposed to it. All of us know how to do push ups, not all of know how to simultaneously defend ourselves and attack.


maybe that's your problem - conditioning is not limited to non ma specific activities.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Just in case anyone missed my point -

For a sport fighter - conditioning is paramount, and may well be the real deciding factor in a match.

For a non-sports fighter - conditioning is still an important factor, however i would suggest that it is not the real deciding factor in a fight.


May not be, but CAN be. you may have to run. you may be fighting multiple attackers. your opponent may be better than you. you are a bouncer in a bar and a huge brawl breaks out - the list goes on. Adrenaline will sap what little endurance you do have VERY quickly, so a decent level of conditioning will help immensely.

[Vankuen]

Well, IMO, a "fighter"...someone who truly trains for combat, will show the fruits of his labor through the skill of his technique AND the inherent physical fitness that comes with training as a fighter. You can't seperate the two, you can't say you're someone who lives the way of the warrior but then not be able to run a mile without collapsing. The two are in seperable.

If you train in combat, your body will show it. If you don't, then that will be obvious as well. I grow weary of the fairy tales that still get thrown around about how it takes no physical attributes only "proper angles" and good "technique". It absolutely does not only rely on that and believing otherwise shows lack or fear of coming to terms with reality.

Training to fight, cannot be done without conditioning. It cannot be seperated, because it's an inherent part of fighting. Plain and simple. No if's and's or but's.

And thank you seven star for actually understanding what the post said! Conditioning may not be a factor should the find end in the cliche 3 seconds...but what if it doesnt? Do you have the conditioning to last the fight? That was the point of the post, which you seem to fully understand as did the other people who fight on here. Its a universal truth, with those that actually train to fight.

[Matrix]

Hey Van,
I'm still interested in knowing what you mean by "old" people.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Well, IMO, a "fighter"...someone who truly trains for combat, will show the fruits of his labor through the skill of his technique AND the inherent physical fitness that comes with training as a fighter. You can't seperate the two, you can't say you're someone who lives the way of the warrior but then not be able to run a mile without collapsing. The two are in seperable.

If you train in combat, your body will show it. If you don't, then that will be obvious as well. I grow weary of the fairy tales that still get thrown around about how it takes no physical attributes only "proper angles" and good "technique". It absolutely does not only rely on that and believing otherwise shows lack or fear of coming to terms with reality.

Training to fight, cannot be done without conditioning. It cannot be seperated, because it's an inherent part of fighting. Plain and simple. No if's and's or but's.

And thank you seven star for actually understanding what the post said! Conditioning may not be a factor should the find end in the cliche 3 seconds...but what if it doesnt? Do you have the conditioning to last the fight? That was the point of the post, which you seem to fully understand as did the other people who fight on here. Its a universal truth, with those that actually train to fight.

Agreed here in the sense that your body will show it, proof is in the ability of the individual to move. Conditioning is off course necessary in the beginning and when competing, but if competing is not your thing, as many do not have a competitive nature, then why train your body to the ground only to weaken it and possibly destroy it by hurting yourself, like some on this forum are experiencing now. I've done that also as well as many fellow sihings and sidis as well as Sifu himself, we've all been there and done that. The question I ask my self is can I still perform the art with some sort of quality skill, are the kicks/punches still powerful and fast. If I felt they weren't up to the standard I have set for myself then yah I could see myself training more for that purpose, but I haven't. Obviously if someone totally quits training and participating in WC then their skills will deteriorate quicker, but there still will be a base set of skills, that wasn't there if they never trained in the first place, only if the hard work was put into the attainment of that skill.

As to lasting more than 3 seconds in a fight Van, if someone in your family or a close friend was in danger and you had to defend them in a physical way, whatta think you would do, give up and crawl under a table or continue the fight, and use whatever was there to help you succeed in that endeavor. Again it all depends on the situation, and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely? If this is the case then one thing for sure, they haven't learned much from there training in regards to self control and attitudes towards others. Anyone trained in the MA to a high level learns more than methods to injure other human beings. For me to use my skills requires allot of pushing from someone intent on hurting me or someone in my family, as there's always the option to walk away. Remember if you portray yourself as a victim you will be one, if you portray yourself as someone prepared you will be less likely to have problems.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
As to lasting more than 3 seconds in a fight Van, if someone in your family or a close friend was in danger and you had to defend them in a physical way, whatta think you would do, give up and crawl under a table or continue the fight, and use whatever was there to help you succeed in that endeavor. Again it all depends on the situation, and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely? James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong. I think we could all be more well rounded in our approach, at least I know I can.
As for the likelihood of encountering a skilled fighter who is in better shape, I hate the idea of preparing for mediocrity. I'm not a gambler, so I'm not concerned with odds. You don't need to be in "better" shape, you just need to be in good shape.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Matrix
James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong.

Agreed. Adrenaline actually has the opposite effect. your muscles get stronger, vision gets better, etc. but it's only for a short period of time. After that burst, the body becomes sapped and you begin to tire. It doesn't take long at all.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Conditioning is off course necessary in the beginning

Why would you think that it's not necessary at later stages?


and when competing, but if competing is not your thing, as many do not have a competitive nature, then why train your body to the ground only to weaken it and possibly destroy it by hurting yourself, like some on this forum are experiencing now.


intense conditioning and hurting yourself are NOT synonymous. just like anything else, you can hurt yourself if done improperly. I know several non-competitive, non intense (IMO, anyway) MA who have hurt themselves while training.

and also the same "fatigue" factor applies to your opponent. Meeting someone that is just as skilled as you and in better shape on the street is how likely?

regardless of the chances, is that a chance you WANT to take? shouldn't we be training for a worst case scenario?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by SevenStar Agreed. Adrenaline actually has the opposite effect. your muscles get stronger, vision gets better, etc. but it's only for a short period of time. After that burst, the body becomes sapped and you begin to tire. It doesn't take long at all. I'm with you SevenStar. Even if a fight only lasts a minute or two, even 30 seconds. I think that the perception of time seems to be distorted in these situations. It can be the longest 30 seconds of your life. Anyone who has ever been in the ring knows that a round that lasts a few minutes seem like forever, and that situation is essentially less life-threatening.

And of course, let's not forget, our opponent is probably going to have an adrenaline rush of his own.

And I think you're spot-on with your comments on the following post as well. :cool:

Peace

[old jong]

There is more than adrenaline involved in some situations.

There have been many cases of small women fighting back on a rapist or something and managing to get out of it and survive with multiples fractures and even stab wounds.
The factor there was fear tranformed in hate and fury toward the attacker and the will to take the situation in hands,not permitting the attacker to dictate his conditions no more.It is a mindset toward survival and it imply more than mere chemicals in the bloodstream.It is the mind.This happens when a victim understand that there is nothing to lose in fighting back and that injuries are inevitable.

This state of ming is hard to reach when you only have to "tap out" to cease a dangerous situation (IMO) Fatigue is often caused by the simple desire to stop the fight when there is an easy way out but,imagine there is no way out?...

The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science. OJ,
Thanks for reminding me. I've been meaning to read that book.

In the cases you mention, I think that the state of mind is of course important. It's about keeping your focus, and not "freaking out" so to speak. Smaller, larger, man or woman, sometimes it's mind over matter.

I don't mind, and they don't matter. ;)

Having said that, being in good shape can improve your odds of success tremendously. And that's the crux of the matter. Skill is good, skill and fighting-fit is much better, IMO. Of course, as always, your mileage may vary.

[old jong]

I don't mind, and they don't matter.

Good one Bill!
Good shape,mind setting,nothing should be neglected.
About the book: It is about the harsh reality and it is even frightening to read sometimes.But at the same time it is a tribute to our natural survival instinct.The thing that has made ordinary people beat incredible odds in the real life.
Nothing is garanteed but you are sure to lose or die if you stop to fight.
Read it and tell me about it. ;)

[Vankuen]

Originally posted by Matrix
Hey Van,
I'm still interested in knowing what you mean by "old" people.

Sorry Matrix I must've missed that. The "old" people statement was in reply to one of James' posts talking about how older people being able to fight effectively without the conditioning that were speaking of here. So I asked him how many "old" people he's seen in full out fights in order to come to this conclusion.

The stories of the old greying master being able to perfom as he did when he was 20 is a farce. We are born, we get old, and we die. The body will continue to deteriorate and there isn't anything we can do to stop it...slow it down yes...but stop it no.

[Vankuen]

Originally posted by Matrix
James,
You've made this same arguement before. Quite frankly I think you're deluding yourself. You think that the adreline from the excitement of the moment you save you, but I think you're wrong. I think we could all be more well rounded in our approach, at least I know I can.
As for the likelihood of encountering a skilled fighter who is in better shape, I hate the idea of preparing for mediocrity. I'm not a gambler, so I'm not concerned with odds. You don't need to be in "better" shape, you just need to be in good shape.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Why train to be mediocre, or less then what you could be? I can understand taking it in cycles, as going full out on training 24-7 can be very draining on the body and psyche as well. Doing things in cycles is understandable and often times recommended to give the body proper recooperation time.

As far as the relevance of ring fighting to real life...

in the ring you know who you're going to fight, you know of what they're capable of, you know the limits of how long the fight could last because there's rounds. So you train for those goals.

IN REAL LIFE, you don't know who you're fighting, what condition they're in, you don't know when or where the fight can happen or what other variables might be involved. So you're gambling you and/or your friend's/families lives when you don't train yourself in EVERY aspect of fighting to the best of your ability. Never settle to be less then what you could be, because you never know when you will need that extra little bit.

As stated so many posts ago, the proficiency in your technique only matters if you have to juice left to make it happen.

[anerlich]

The book "Strong on defense" talks about just that! It is backed by experiences,not theory or science.

That's true. However, Strong's book also talks a great deal about mental rehearsal, planning, and other forms of mental "preparation" or ... "conditioning". IMO that book is probably the best on the subject of self defense ever written, but nothing in there says that conditioning at some level at least is not part of the game. "Never give up", one of his maxims, is much easier if you are well conditioned BOTH physically and mentally.

World champ Kostya Tszyu is often quoted as saying "boxing is 90% mental". But few people on Earth train harder - perhaps the mental toughness is what carries him through the phenomenally hard physical training, and that's really the hard part.

As for the "old person" comments, After turning 50 this year and last year having a knee, then an ankle injury that restricted my ability to work cardio for two months, I can tell you that conditioning and overall ability DO decrease with age. And they decrease quicker without maintenance. Life sucks, get a helmet.

If you're running away from 5 possibly tooled up guys (and, yes, you WILL be running if you want to avoid the hospital, a