northern pole and staff sets

[ngokfei]

What is the main pole/staff set of your style?

Do you use a tappered pole or the double end staff?

Curious to know why I've only seen northern styles from places like HK and other places outside of Mainland China using a equal diameter staff while Most of the Mainland Northern Sets use the tappered waxwood staff?

[MasterKiller]

We use the equal diameter staff. Our main set is simply called Long Pole.

[Shaolinlueb]

we use the waxwood staffs mostly. we have a couple equal diameter ones. sifu says its our choice to which one we want to use.

[ngokfei]

all the sets I learned from my EC teacher used the "equal diameter" as they were all double ended sets.

Shepherd Staff - basic chin woo
Great Sage Shaolin Staff - medium-combat skills
Strage Door Staff - advanced only because of the acrobatics

Whats the obvious difference in using a wax would tapered pole? Would seem clumsy since one end is heavyer than theother.

[MasterKiller]

Waxwood is lighter and faster.

[ngokfei]

making master is good but if it is not balanced wouldn't that take away from the accuracy?

[norther practitioner]

It's not that dramatic...

we're only talking a couple of ounces difference. Now it does take a litte getting used to compared to an equi diameter pole.

My guess is though there weren't too many equidiameter staves back in the day.

[GeneChing]

I've used both tapered and double-ended poles in a variety of Shaolin staff forms that have asked for one or the other. I've tried those forms with the wrong pole too, just as an experiment. For me personally, the tapered is far more accurate. It's more like spear than bo or quarterstaff, and I like to poke and jab rather than pummel. But that's just my personal preference. I wouldn't say one is universally better, just that I like one more.

[ngokfei]

i agree.

tapered end sticks are good for those sets that primarily use 1 end for the majority of the set (pole and spear similarities)

For a double ended staff set there tends to be alot more hand shifting and switching. I'ved tried doing the staff sets I know with a tapered pole and have found it kind of awkward.

Sure in the world finding a equal diameter stick is almost impossible so the ability to adapt was more or less a necessity.

Gene

what are some of the sets you've learned and what do they emphasize?

[r.(shaolin)]

....

ngokfei wrote:
For a double ended staff set there tends to be a lot more hand shifting and switching. I've tried doing the staff sets I know with a tapered pole and have found it kind of awkward.
...
Good observation ngokfei. First of all qui mei gun (eyebrow-level staves) are shorter than tapered poles. The sets for this weapon have the characteristics of both the spear (thrusting) and percussion weapons. Lateral striking capability plus effective thrusting at close range makes the staff highly effective. Traditional sets from northern Shaolin use a 'live pole'. This sliding action generates incredibly fast and powerful percussion attacks with force being generated by the dynamics of the action not brut strength . Striking with the head of the weapon is not unlike that one would use in chopping wood with an axe. Striking with the tail of the weapon takes more skill, however the mechanics are the same. The key to generating powerful strikes with both, is the rear hand. Unlike the southern sets, northern Shaolin "eyebrow height staves", as a rule, have the thumbs facing the direction of the weapon head. Southern 'double ended' staves generally have the palms griping the staff in the same direction (downwards) with the thumbs facing each other.

The double ended staff was identified as one of the '5 military weapons' . Most scholars believe these to be the bow and arrow, halberd, spear, and spear-tipped halberd and the staff. Examples of these staves have been found in tombs from the Han dynasty. These weapons were robust, round and formed from a single piece of wood. Some however, were composite weapons made from wood and octagonal in shape. The term '5 weapons' pre-dates the term '18 weapons'.

r.

[Starchaser107]

equal diameter for some
tapered for rat tail

[mickey]

Greetings,

It may have more to do with the origin of the set than anything else. If the set has its origin with long spear or lance technique that was adapted to the stick, one will probably and more likely to find the set performed with a tapered pole; oftentimes, a long tapered pole. The southern Pa Kua pole set is an example of this.

If the set emphasizes attacking methods that expand upon that used by the spear (ex: clubbing), one may find a equal diameter pole.

Don't forget, China has techniques for the long pole, eyebrow length pole, 3/4 length pole, and short stick. Some of the sets may have been developed with these available methods, forcing new paradigms of martial expression for the time.

mickey

[GeneChing]

what are some of the sets you've learned and what do they emphasize? Do you mean ones I've learned or ones I remember? I learned a traditional okinawan bo form when I was a kid, but don't ask me about it now....;)
Let's see, I've got three BSL staff sets which are all double-ended eyebrow staffs, 9-province eyebrow height, 5 tigers cathc the lamb and sparring. The last two, I'm a bit sketchy on, but the first one I can do in my sleep (and often do). I was taught Hung Gar monkey pole, but I've completely forgotten it. I have a Songshan Shaolin yinshao staff that's a rat tail (another one I can do in my sleep), a basic O-mei that's also a rat tail (which I just learned this year, then promptly forgot) and another Shaolin/O-mei one, another rat tail, that I just learned that I really like.

As for the second part of your question, all of the forms emphasize clubbing my adversary into a bloody pulp, with a few flashy spins thrown in for me to look good as I'm doing it...;)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Do you mean ones I've learned or ones I remember? I learned a traditional okinawan bo form when I was a kid, but don't ask me about it now....;)
Let's see, I've got three BSL staff sets which are all double-ended eyebrow staffs, 9-province eyebrow height, 5 tigers cathc the lamb and sparring. The last two, I'm a bit sketchy on, but the first one I can do in my sleep (and often do). I was taught Hung Gar monkey pole, but I've completely forgotten it. I have a Songshan Shaolin yinshao staff that's a rat tail (another one I can do in my sleep), a basic O-mei that's also a rat tail (which I just learned this year, then promptly forgot) and another Shaolin/O-mei one, another rat tail, that I just learned that I really like.

As for the second part of your question, all of the forms emphasize clubbing my adversary into a bloody pulp, with a few flashy spins thrown in for me to look good as I'm doing it...;)

gene go smash.

[ngokfei]

surveying what I have on tape/vcd's that most of the northern styles in china mainly use the wax wood tappered while the schools in HK, Singapore, Malaysia use the equal diameter staff.

wonder why?

My sifu told me that in HK it was easy to get a rattan or bamboo stick then a waxwood. They seem to have been reserved for spears, etc.

[GeneChing]

You see a lot of long rat tail poles in the south - look at Lau Gar, Wing Chun, et.al. For short poles, you might see more double-ended staffs. In general, southern weapons tend to be shorter - look at butterfly knives (http://store.martialartsmart.net/452067.html) and nan dao (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-76.html). Even in chain whips (http://store.martialartsmart.net/45-29.html) southern styles tend to lean more towards hip length whips while northerners tend to use shoulder length ones. I'm not sure why this is. Maybe southerners are just shorter.

You might be able to dust off the old fighting on boats and in more congested cities argument to justify shorter southern weapons. Also you could cite more northern equestrians, which would lean to longer weapons. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule to make this a poor generalization, but that has never stopped kung fu rationalization/justification before...:p

[NorthernShaolin]

ngokfei,

[My sifu told me that in HK it was easy to get a rattan or bamboo stick then a waxwood. They seem to have been reserved for spears, etc.]

Your sifu is right in what he said. This was especially true 40 years ago when the wax wood was completely unavailable to anyone outside of China. All spears were made out of rattan. I remember reading about waxwood and inquiring what is a waxwood? Only the sifus from the old country knew what it was. When China open up to the rest of the world and started to trade, waxwood was exported to HK and soon spears appeared with waxwood. Today the availablity of wax wood is everywhere but during the period of when it was unavailable, many schools used rattan because they had no choice. As time passed, and the staffs and spears were taught, it was taken for granted that this is what we always use.

Of course I'm only refering to the Northern schools, not the Southern school. In the old days, I do not believe waxwood was readily available to the Southern Schools in China since the waxwood is grown only in the northern regions of China. Also from what I understand, the forest where the waxwood comes from is not a large forest so the Northerns were not incline to transport waxwood to the southern parts of China.

[Becca]

Originally posted by ngokfei
What is the main pole/staff set of your style?

Do you use a tappered pole or the double end staff?

Curious to know why I've only seen northern styles from places like HK and other places outside of Mainland China using a equal diameter staff while Most of the Mainland Northern Sets use the tappered waxwood staff?
1. bo staff (intro or advanced, depending on your level). That really is the name, many of our weapons forms and combat sets are simply named like that.

2. It's a personal preference thing at our school. I prefer a double-ended staff, red oak for everyday use bacuase it's heavier without gaining over-all mass and is much cheaper to replace when it breaks. I do have a waxwood double ended, but I don't use it much except durring and just before rank-test.

Not that you've mentioned it, but I also prefere ratan over bambo. No real reason, other than I just like the way they flex.

[norther practitioner]

Speaking of waxwood... I've been doing some research, didn't get too far, as I didn't have someone from the old country to ask or consult with. NS, could you shoot me an IM of what you know of waxwood and where it is from, I have some basics, like what I think are the genus and some possible species for said waxwood but not too much else. Thanks if you have a chance...

[NorthernShaolin]

NP,

I'll give you a PM as soon as I find out the location. I once knew where but I can't remember worth ....

I do remember that the actual waxwood we use for our weapons are not really part of the tree but are part of the roots...air roots for the tree that grows straight down.

Anyway I do some research again and get back.

[norther practitioner]

Interesting... I always thought they were just saplings cut (a couple years old). As was thought by a dendrology specialist... but given this, I may need to dive much deeper.

[GeneChing]

You know, I've heard that air roots story before but never been able to validate it. One of my Sifus once told me that weapon makers would find these air roots as they dropped from the trees before they reached the ground. Then they would place a bowl filled with special herbs under it, so when the root reached the bowl, it would start to uptake these special herbs and grow stronger and more flexible. It was supposed to be a long and involved process, and frankly at the time, I wrote it off to another great myth that seemed highly unlikely.

[norther practitioner]

I'll run the idea by my dendro guy... From what I know of our initial thoughts on the species.. they do not grow air roots, but that could also just be a major oversight and I might need to look into species that do have these roots. But thinking about this a little, I don't know of any species that really has them that long off the top of my head (but I only took dendro as a class in college).

[r.(shaolin)]

mickey wrote:
If the set has its origin with long spear or lance technique that was adapted to the stick, one will probably and more likely to find the set performed with a tapered pole;
....

Agreed. My feeling is that many tapered wax wood staff sets more like than not have their origin as spear sets. As an example it is believed, with good reason, that the Tai ji staff set was developed from a spear set.

According to the famous military manual 'Wu Jing Zong Yao' (Song Dynasty), training and drill spears were only wood and did not have the sharp iron heads attached. This may be one of the reasons why this interchange may have happened.

The spear had been an important military weapon in ancient Chinese for centuries. During the Sui and Tang Dynasties the spear became the principal long handled weapon for hand to hand combat. Those used by cavalry was made from an oak like tree called the 'bo'. Spears use by foot soldiers however were shorter and lighter and had sharp sides. Wax wood was perfect for this type of weapon in that it could be slender and light but difficult to break.

Further, the springy flex of wax wood in the northern 'flower' spear became a highly effective part of it's technique: i.e.. deflect/thrust, slash/thrust

The advice of the ancestors was: with 'cold' weapons attack the soft parts and with 'warm' weapons like the 'eye brow' staff, attack the hard parts.

r.

[MasterKiller]

Gene,
How hard can it be to find out what kind of tree it comes from? You guys buy waxwood in bulk from a distributor, right? The distributor has to get them from a manufacturer. You're like 2 or 3 degrees of separation away from the guys gathering the wood. Make some phone calls.

[Becca]

Originally posted by GeneChing
You know, I've heard that air roots story before but never been able to validate it. One of my Sifus once told me that weapon makers would find these air roots as they dropped from the trees before they reached the ground. Then they would place a bowl filled with special herbs under it, so when the root reached the bowl, it would start to uptake these special herbs and grow stronger and more flexible. It was supposed to be a long and involved process, and frankly at the time, I wrote it off to another great myth that seemed highly unlikely.
Not so very unlikely, really. Professional gardeners and landscapeer, do similar things all the time. The Japanese grow the
Westieria (sp?) vine in to a tree. It take 10-15 years, but the finnished product is absolutly awsome!

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Gene,
How hard can it be to find out what kind of tree it comes from? You guys buy waxwood in bulk from a distributor, right? The distributor has to get them from a manufacturer. You're like 2 or 3 degrees of separation away from the guys gathering the wood. Make some phone calls.

I've tried that.. to not much success... we just get them...

Can you make a call

No

Thanks for your time..