Why not many people use what they have learnt in a fight or in tournments

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Is it possible for any one to tell me why there are so many martial artists out there, who cannot use what they have learnt in a fight or in tournments?
I am referring to them applying their techniques in a fight and not about whether they can or cannot win a fight. When I went to visit other martial arts schools or in tournments, all I can see were students and instructors sparring with each other like human punching bags or kick boxers. They could not apply what they have learnt for the past several years.
However, they could perform their techniques perfectly in a co-operative situations. Why is this?

1. No one expect tennis players or coaches to enter themselves in tournments, if they cannot hit a ball.
No tennis players will enter themselves into an ice hockey match wearing tennis outfit OR cannot play ice hockey. They do not want to make fools of themselves by not being able to play the game. They learnt how to play the game very well first, before entering themselves into tournments.
However, this is exact what had happened to many of the tournments I have seen.

2. No traditional teachers in the past would let his/her students open their own schools, if they cannot use what they have learnt to defence themselves. They did not want to disgrace themselves and their own schools. However, today many teachers (including experience fighters) do not seem to care about their own and their ancestors' reputations.

3. The quality of the teacher is judged by the qualities of his/her students. If the students cannot applied what they have learnt in a fight, then the teacher is bad. It does not matter if he/ her is the current undefeated world champion. This is because he/she cannot pass on the skill to the students. It is the teaching methods being taught that I am questioning and not whether both the teacher or student can fight.


I am very sad and disappointed to said that all I can only see performers, human punching bags and kick boxers competitors in tournments, but not martial artists who can use their skills (except judo players, wrestler, boxers, kick boxers , Thai boxers, etc). If this trend is allow to continue, then no wonder people will look down at martial artists and thinking it is a waste of time.

Thank you
Hitman

[MasterKiller]

Well, because most teachers show you a long form and then say "Now use it sparring" without showing you how. Heck, a lot of teachers don't even teach the form applications. They expect the student to just figure it out on their own. To use the techniques, you have to extract them from the forms, drill them live or on pads/bags, and then use them in a free sparring format. You can't go directly from memorizing a form to using the technqiues effectivley. It doesn't work that way. There are steps in between that a lot of teachers neglect.

[Judge Pen]

MK has commited the correct to memory, broken it down to its essential principles, drilled it against a resisting opponent, and applied it on the street.

[Shaolinlueb]

that is why he is the masterkiller.

also this day of age. people want to learn to be bad ass right away. you dont do that by learning "silly" techniques from "silly" forms. i see tournaments and its just brawls its so disapointing.
but master killer hit it on the dot.

[ninja]

Learn Wing Chun

[GeneChing]

And so many people never fight in tournaments. Or anywhere, for that matter. Once you get in some real fights, you realize how hard it is to apply some of the techniques based on reaction skills. Now this doesn't mean that those moves are unapplicable, it just means that you might not be able to apply them at the right moment. You have to seize that moment. But will you see it? It's a perceptual thing and your perceptions altar dramatically when in the "war' zone.

While tournaments are a far cry from real fights, it's about as close as you can get safely. For everyone, there is a first time. Would you prefer that first time be on the street or at a tournament where all you have to lose is ego? Anyone who steps in the ring is exhibiting a speck of bravery - I know many practitioners who have never done that then comment on 'how bad' everyone looks. Get out there and show us. Show us those traditional moves in the ring. You see them occasionally in good fights, so it can be done. And we love those fighters who show us some technique; they are always favored by the crowd.

[Da_Moose]

Could it possibly be that many martial arts do not deal with discussing/teaching strategies for bridging the gaps correctly as to be able to make the techniques work? What angles work best when. What approaches to using techniques to either close or maintain space between you and the opponent?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ninja
Learn Wing Chun

because...

[SevenStar]

three words -

improper training.

[Da_Moose]

SevenStar,

That's Two Words you wrote there. ;)

[ninja]

Grados Street Combat

Watch his hands fly!

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
Could it possibly be that many martial arts do not deal with discussing/teaching strategies for bridging the gaps correctly as to be able to make the techniques work? What angles work best when. What approaches to using techniques to either close or maintain space between you and the opponent?

They are addressed in MA.

The student is only as good as the teacher. We learn all that in my school. The curriculum is complete, I think. SiGung works hard and it is amazing all the stuff he knows. He makes sure that we know what we are doing and do it correctly. It is a martial art, not a dance. I do not want to be Lord of the Dance, I want to be Lord of not getting beaten to a Bloody Pulp. Also the health benefits are nice ;)

Also, some people are just good natural fighters, in my opinion. Just like anything, some people can apply what they learn better than others and more quickly.

But I believe that it all comes down to the teacher.

[unixfudotnet]

for the general image of martial arts and martial artists receiving respect... one of the worst things to happen is the year black belts (where people can get a black belt/sash/whatever in a year), and think they learned everything.

I remember in high school that I saw a karate black belt get his butt kicked so fast it wasn't even funny.

If only all schools stuck to being true to their arts, and not making it all about the money and insulting the arts, I think the general American public, at least, would have a better outlook on martial arts.

Last I checked, there was not a 'Curl up into the fetal position and blink a 1000 times' or 'Freeze up like a big Oak Tree' move in any martial art. In a fight, even if you never have taken a ma class ever, you know you should just react.

Many people think, that if a punch comes and are not skilled fighters something like 'oh, i will just do <insert fancy move>... no problem'. There is a difference between knowing what to do, and actually doing it and not thinking like a maniac and responding like a 3rd grader being drug to detention with arms flying around like you are trying to take off (last I checked it was a warm up exercise, not an ancient Chinese secret).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet

If only all schools stuck to being true to their arts, and not making it all about the money and insulting the arts, I think the general American public, at least, would have a better outlook on martial arts.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as that. Today, you still have traditional systems that are quite "true to their arts", yet they don't spar. you have systems that are "true to their arts", yet most of their time is spent training forms. lack of fighting ability in schools in not only due to the greed of some teachers.

Last I checked, there was not a 'Curl up into the fetal position and blink a 1000 times' or 'Freeze up like a big Oak Tree' move in any martial art. In a fight, even if you never have taken a ma class ever, you know you should just react.

here's where the difference between theory and reality come in. In theory, yeah, it seems common sense to react. In reality, when adrenaline rushes, you resort to two options - fight or flight. when you aren't conditioned to fight, yet you have chosen fight mode, you will freeze. once the body's heartbeat raises above a certain rate and adrenaline is rushing, you tend to forget everything you've learned, unless it's firmly ingrained. Some people have a "killer instinct" and automatically respond in fight mode. Not everybody does.

In addition, MA training is generally counterproductive to that response. you are taught to only use your skills for self defense, you are taught to always be kind, respectful and humble. you are taught not to fight unless you absolutely have to. That peaceful frame of mind sticks with you. Who has the advantage in a fight - the street fighter with no remorse at all for his opponent, or the peaceful, trained MA who doesn't want to fight anyway?

[Shaolinlueb]

i tend to think traditional martial arts along the same lines of traditional boxing. it seems people fought a little different then. i always see articles on abreknuckle boxing and they are standing straight up hands out, good posture, different from todays boxing. think same could be said for martial arts. different style?

[norther practitioner]

In addition, MA training is generally counterproductive to that response. you are taught to only use your skills for self defense, you are taught to always be kind, respectful and humble. you are taught not to fight unless you absolutely have to. That peaceful frame of mind sticks with you. Who has the advantage in a fight - the street fighter with no remorse at all for his opponent, or the peaceful, trained MA who doesn't want to fight anyway?

I've been burned by this.

[unixfudotnet]

Is the system really complete if you do not even know how to fight?

It is a martial art, defending yourself and knowing how to use what you learned and have been practicing for years is core to what martial arts are.

I realize that in some schools, people just do not show up for sparring class. Hey, it happens. *shrug*

But, I do not see how one could reach any high level, or even a moderate level without even knowing how to be comfortable in a fight and doing what you have to do.

Otherwise, you are only learning a really cool dance with weapons and such.

Historical wise, did monks of old that learned and developed these systems just do them and hope for the best in battle, or did they prepare themselves for battle, so when it came, they would be comfortable in the setting and ready, and know how they would react and confident of what is to come and how to just take care of business.

I think many people lose focus that it is a martial art. Breaking another person is just the outcome that happens in martial applications. You can be kind all you want, but you have to develop that frame of mind to do what you have to do in battle.

The other guy is intent on harming you and doing a good job of it, people need to realize this, and know that they do not want this to happen, and all they are doing is stopping it. I view it as just stopping danger, stopping evil, there is no mercy for evil and those trying to destroy you.

People need this frame of mind. I do not even understand why this is even an issue here. Martial is in the term Martial art, you are failing in your martial art if you are not able to use what you learn. It is like taking school for years to learn how to be a master plumber, and when the time comes for you to fix a plumbing problem, you just yell and bang on the pipes like a caveman.

What is the point of learning and practicing for years if when the time comes, you throw it all out the window and it is like you are in gradeschool again fighting over the good swing on the playground.

[unixfudotnet]

destroying life and what is beautiful in this world will always be something that is bad, and i do not want to do it at all. yet, when someone is intent on destroying you, you have to stop what is going on. there is a difference between stopping the attack, and stopping the attack and totally destroying the target.

comparing street fighters and ma is kinda moot when at the time of the fight is who attacks how and who stops attacks, etc. the frame of mind for both that you are comparing is the same, though the intention may be very different.

some people need to just have their reality shaken when they are trying to attack you, like it isn't going to be easy, and it is going to hurt.

like all martial arts common theme, only apply what is needed.

destroying life and what is beautiful has no place in martial arts, but stopping an attacker with only what is needed is another. there is a difference, and you can have that, yet still be effective in fighting. it helps to be comfortable, then it is much easier to relax (which you will need to do), and in this situation, you can develop confidence that is not superficial.

just simply stop the attack, stop the danger. no not destroy it, just simply stop it. the reality of it is that it may be a block and push or breaking multiple joints/bones to physically stop the attack.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
Is the system really complete if you do not even know how to fight?

depends on whom you ask. Back during the pre meiji and tokugawa periods in japan, most of the jujutsu schools did not spar. The reason was that they trained bone breaking, killing, etc. - things that they could not practice safely in training. Were these koryu systems MA? Sure they were - it was used in battle. However, after the samurai had disbanded and there was no need for the koryu systems, the various do, such as judo came about. judo removed many of jujutsu's unsafe techniques and instituted sparring. In contests between judo and jujutsu, judo cleaned house...

It is a martial art, defending yourself and knowing how to use what you learned and have been practicing for years is core to what martial arts are.

yes, but as many people say, sparring is not the same as fighting. some systems only do drills and such.

I realize that in some schools, people just do not show up for sparring class. Hey, it happens. *shrug*

Historical wise, did monks of old that learned and developed these systems just do them and hope for the best in battle, or did they prepare themselves for battle, so when it came, they would be comfortable in the setting and ready, and know how they would react and confident of what is to come and how to just take care of business.

dunno. My guess, however, is that they did various drills and two man forms. Also, they may have fought more often, eliminating the need for sparring. Same with the old jj guys. In thailand, thai boxers don't spar, they do roadwork, bagwork, pad drills, etc. BUT, they fight ALOT. Some fight as often as once per week. This negates the need for them to spar. And actually, it hinders them, because if they get hurt while sparring, they can't fight.


People need this frame of mind. I do not even understand why this is even an issue here. Martial is in the term Martial art, you are failing in your martial art if you are not able to use what you learn. It is like taking school for years to learn how to be a master plumber, and when the time comes for you to fix a plumbing problem, you just yell and bang on the pipes like a caveman.

that actually happens all the time. Think about your own field - how many companies want to hire a green, college grad with no working experience? Why? The era of the MCSE showed us that being certified doesn't mean you know what you're doing...

MA is the same way - training is doesn't guarantee you'll gain the mindset required to survive in a fight. MA isn't a guarantee, it's merely an equalizer.

What is the point of learning and practicing for years if when the time comes, you throw it all out the window and it is like you are in gradeschool again fighting over the good swing on the playground.

once again, depends on whom you ask.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet

comparing street fighters and ma is kinda moot when at the time of the fight is who attacks how and who stops attacks, etc. the frame of mind for both that you are comparing is the same, though the intention may be very different.

that's just it - the frame of mind is NOT the same.

[Hitman]

Thank for all those who replied to my question.

I have found two web sites where the practitioners used traditional kung fu in their sparring sessions. Please check out the video clips, questions and answers.

http://www.wongkk.com/index.html

- Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit explained in great details why people cannot used kung fu in a fight.

http://members.aol.com/martyeisen/mantis/pmwebpage.html

- Master Gin Foon Mark's praying mantis kung fu

I too have fought like a human punching bag and kick boxer before I started my martial arts training. This is why I am very surprised that after 2 years of training - 2 hours per day and 7 days a week. I am still behaving like a human punching bag in sparring matchs.

Hitman

[Becca]

Second link don't wprk.

The sad part of your question was brought home a few weeks ago. The majority of you fellow dragons faild rank test. One of my Sifu was very upset by this, because every one he judged did not even attempt to spar properly, but rather attempted to beat thier opponent down. The point of sparring is not to kill the other guy, it is to practice the technique in a practical format. :( I can't count the number of times I have come up against this...

We were working on rudementry staff sparring last Thursday. No one was interested in learning how to get into the flow of how to spar; they wanted to demonstrate how well they could blow through someone else's parry or block. Lots of busted knuckles and bad tempers, very little productive training.:(

[Hitman]

Dear Becca,

Go to google and type:

Bruce Lee and praying mantis

select

A master Mark's praying mantis kung fu

You will find the video clips of Master Mark sparring with other martial artist


The answer to your question why people cannot apply their martial arts in a fight:

1. Some teachers have to water down their training methods inorder to attract enough students to survive. Learning the real stuff are boring and time consuming. Many people do not make the sacrific and devote enough time to learn it.

2. Most students wanted to do intensive exercises only, but will not like to spend the time to learn it properly. However, they would like to call themselves martial arts experts, even though their standard are poor. This also happen in fencing as well. They live in a world of fast food.


3. Many teachers were not taught properly, before they started teaching. This is why we got so many bad students around.

4 I have been sparring with my training partner and correcting our mistakes every twenty seconds. We did the same move over and over again, until I am happy that we can defend ourselves and able to hit each other, without getting hit. After 3 months we are no longer sparring like human punching bags. However, this process is time consume, which should be learnt from a school. If I have to figure out on my own why to apply my techniques. This is totally defeated the object of learning from a school.

5. It is up to the individul what they want from they martial arts training. You cannot force people to train if they do not want in the first place.

Hitman

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Becca
Second link don't wprk.

The sad part of your question was brought home a few weeks ago. The majority of you fellow dragons faild rank test. One of my Sifu was very upset by this, because every one he judged did not even attempt to spar properly, but rather attempted to beat thier opponent down. The point of sparring is not to kill the other guy, it is to practice the technique in a practical format. :( I can't count the number of times I have come up against this...

We were working on rudementry staff sparring last Thursday. No one was interested in learning how to get into the flow of how to spar; they wanted to demonstrate how well they could blow through someone else's parry or block. Lots of busted knuckles and bad tempers, very little productive training.:(

Becca when i went to Wong2004. that is all i seemed to see in the sparring macth. it seems the people jsut wanted to pummel each other and not use techniques. i tried using techniques but once i learned my opponent was out to get me, i went out to get him.

[David Jamieson]

will beats skill quite often. Innate talent for fighting will often triumph over technically trained.

Many martial artists can't apply, because many martial artists aren't in it for the fight.

To fight requires "spirit" and skill. You can't instill spirit, you can only transmit knowledge which may or may not manifest as skill and internalized knowledge.

there are a great many non-traditional martial artists who are unable to fight as well. Luckily for them, most times they are placed into a contest with an equally unqualified fighter and that's when you get to see a brawl instead of sweet science.

as for application, I think it behooves any instructor to show at least one application for every single move within a form. After that, the extrapolation process needs to come from the student and more apps will be found for the same move.

Innate abilty is a treasure for a teacher. It means quicker response and understanding more often than not.

Also consider that many people entering into gwoons and dojos go there because they do not know anything about defending themselves or fighting sportively. also, as often, these same people when presented with the reality of the taste of their own blood in their mouths and their bells ringing from a solid hook to the head will deny themselves the moving forward required to get better. this is weakness that was always present in the person and they should perhaps move on to some other activity or persevere and get on with it.

The important lesson about pain that is not mortally or fatally wounding is that it will pass. If you see beyond to the result, you will fare better in the long run.

[PangQuan]

I think that, in regards to applying technique, and or style into your sparring matches, it is partially a responibility of the teacher to make sure each student understands the application for specific movements. However, I also believe, that in large part it is the students responsibility to apply what they have learned to each situation that they are delt. To put to much emphasis on the teaching, would imply a large dependency on your teacher. We are in the martial business, which of course implies fighting. This is exactly what must be done. Fight yourself, fight the desire to flail wildly into combat. Fight the disire to become emotional and most of all, fight your opponents attempts to make you conform to thier way of fighting. It is the responsibility of the practitioner to decide whether they want to use thier form or style, or whether they want to break it down and street fight. I say to each his own. If using your style means you will suffer defeat and encure pain upon yourself, then this is the road you must travel in order to reach your goal. To learn martial arts, is to learn to except pain and humility. Sometimes defeat can be our greatest teacher.

[Dark Knight]

I went to the web sites and watched the videos.

I have run across these guys before in these forums.

What they call sparring we call drills with cooperating oponents.

I have been on their boards and they claim that they have instructors that could win at UFC. (Thats my favorite, never fought anyone, but know they posess enough skills to defeat them)

When I first started in the arts padded gloves were not used in tournaments, so there was not a lot of contact. Deadly strikes were believed because you coulnt practice full speed and power.

take those same people and put gloves on them, see if the techniques are as clean.

[Hitman]

Dear Dark Knight,

I am not interested in a pointless debat with you about those websites.

However, I would be very grateful if you and other readers to consider my comments:

I have read all the corresponds, answer and questions made by the partitioners in that school. None of them have made any claim that they could win a UFC. What Grandmaster Wong did was to point out the weakness in each technique used by the competitors in UFC and other styles. He also pointed out clearly that in order to make his counters work against those techniques, you have to have the skill and the determination to use them first, otherwise his counters are worthless!

After correcting myself, I too fight like those people in the video clips. However, my skill is very poor compared to them. My training partner and me wore only googles to protect our eyes. No other protective clothings, gloves were wore. We sparred at a moderate speed with light contact only. All our attacks and defence are totally un-planned.

We both do finger strikes to the eyes, punches to the throat, body and nose. Elbows to the head, neck. Kicks to the groin and legs. All our attacks are designed to hit the intended targets. When we first started sparring we got hit at least thirty time a day per person. Nowday we only got hit six or seven times a day. What save us from getting serious hurt is our skills and trusting each other to stop the attack at the surface of the skin. There were times when I could not stop my attacks in time. I punched my partner's throat and he had to take several minutes of rest, in order to recover. I too got my nose and throat punched several times, because I made several mistakes and they hurt! Fortunately, so far we had not recieved any serious injuries.

We do not spar at full speed is because we do not want get hurt or kill each other in our training session.

I can assure you that I can see skills in those practitioners, even if the video clips consist of drills only. You can still learn something from them.

Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim. After reading some of his articles and one of his books about martial artist, I believed he is a very knowledgeable teacher.

Hitman

[Starchaser107]

people don't use what they learn when they fight in tournaments because what they learn is ineffective and useless, and would more than likely get them killed or laughed at if they tried using it.

that is all.

[mortal]

The bottom line is the tech never looks like the form. Nor should it. The form trains a tech and some physical attibute at the same time. Most people fail to recognize this. That is why when some people fight it doesn't "look" like kung fu form.

It also goes back to the "most sifu's, shouldn't be sifu" theory.

[Dark Knight]

Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim.

What do you think you can learn in three days. Is it stupid? Thats all subjective.
I have been to seminars with gene Labelle and I can say that in one day you will gain an incredible amount of information that will make your fighting ability jump, and it will cost yuo less than $100.00.
George Dillman teaches pressure point KO's, when you go to his seminars you leave capable of doing them, less than $100.00

Would I pay $1500? Maybe

I am not interested in a pointless debat with you about those websites.

You posted them as examples, slow drills have value for developing form, runners do them also. But that is not sparring. If you spar like that any of my students with 4 months experience is going to take you down.

If you feel that my comments are pointless, dont post it and ask questions.

None of them have made any claim that they could win a UFC.

Months ago I was on line on their board, They claim that one instructor in the north eastern area (I forget his name and location) could win at UFC.

What Grandmaster Wong did was to point out the weakness in each technique used by the competitors in UFC and other styles. He also pointed out clearly that in order to make his counters work against those techniques, you have to have the skill and the determination to use them first, otherwise his counters are worthless!

If he has the counters and knows the weaknesses he should show up at one. It would be a quick easy couple hundred thousand dollars for stopping off at a tournament on the way home.

I expect the usual answer "We have nothing to prove"

However, my skill is very poor compared to them.

Fight more often and watch out for sweeps.

After reading some of his articles and one of his books about martial artist, I believed he is a very knowledgeable teacher.

I have no dought.

I have met many talented and knowledgable martial artist. When you look at defining fighting there are many levels. The typical street fighter has no training and is just a jerk. It does not take a lot of skill to beat them, mostly the power to make it work and the desire to be the guy standing.

The biggest problem TMA suffer from is it lacks realistic training. Finding someone who is not going to let you work your techniques by resisting you and building up to a level that includes good contact, grabs, takedowns...

Until the 1980's most styles suffered from this. Once good padding was introduced then training could become more realistic. Before then people belived in strikes that were too deadly to try on each other. I know people today that have schools they go to that tell them they do not spar because what they do is too deadly.

If your instructor tells you this, you need a new instructor.

Its a simple concept...Train as you fight.

[PangQuan]

I dont know about anyone else here, but I personally would be thrilled to see, at any competition, an event that requires you to fight in form. This of course would be a somewhat tricky rating system. TKO would naturally win, but there would need to be deductions for slop and so forth. A quick demonstration of what form you will be fighting with for each fighter. Then the bout. It would not be to find out who would win in a street style fight, it would however determine who, out of the two fighters has a better developed knowledge of their style. But of course this is just one mans opinion.

[Baji Brad]

Would you honestly believed that someone can be so stupid and pay Grandmaster Wong $1500 per person for 3 days of seminar, if he do have enough skill to back up his claim.
Wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last time. People waste massive amounts of money on phoney baloney teachers all the time. Ever heard of Temple Kungfu, Chung Moo Do, or Yellow Bamboo? A local guy used to make big bucks off of people with super expensive seminars and private lessons.

I dont know about anyone else here, but I personally would be thrilled to see, at any competition, an event that requires you to fight in form. This of course would be a somewhat tricky rating system. TKO would naturally win, but there would need to be deductions for slop and so forth. A quick demonstration of what form you will be fighting with for each fighter. Then the bout. It would not be to find out who would win in a street style fight, it would however determine who, out of the two fighters has a better developed knowledge of their style. But of course this is just one mans opinion.
I think something like that could only work in a competition among people from a single style. Blacktaoist and Maoshan have been running an anual Bagua competition that has sparring kindof like that. A mixed style competition would be too much of a pain to get quality judging in that format, and would handicap a lot of people.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
Becca when i went to Wong2004. that is all i seemed to see in the sparring macth. it seems the people jsut wanted to pummel each other and not use techniques. i tried using techniques but once i learned my opponent was out to get me, i went out to get him.
I can understand why one might do this when sparring a stranger. But this was rank test!!! I was not able to rank test this time around, but I have seen it. The sparring portion of the test is ment for the student to demonstrate thier ability to use the techniques they have aquired. It isn't a toury-style match, and no one should be worried about having to deal with anything more agressive than someone with poor control. If you can't use the technique in this controlled of a situation, then when would you? And if you aren't interested in learning how to use it, then why waste your time. Or the time of your classmates whoare trying to learn the system the right way?:confused:

P.S. I have seen fighters who could, and do, use their art the way it was designed to be used. I have seen my Sifus spar. I know that one can spar at 100% and still have the technique visable. May not be your experience, but it is mine...:rolleyes:

[Dark Knight]

Hitman, the drills are not useless, boxers do something similar, gapplers also. But its not sparring. Fighting doesnt look that clean, we work on techniques and draw from them when the time comes.

Look at how Cung Le fights in Sanshou. That is full contact. I realize its a sport with rules, but realfighting in the street is going to have the same principles.

When you do the martial arts you have to look at what it is that you want fom it. Some people will never fight and dont care about the fighting aspect, they get into the depths of the art and what it offers, some do it for fitness.

If your goal is to fight I would reccomend going to the Straight Blast Gym ( www.straightblastgym.com ) and picking up their Funtional JKD tapes. They have one concern, performance.

If it an interest in an art and all it has to offer, then look for that journey.

But keep an open mind, everything is not as it appears.

[Dark Knight]

Hitman, the drills are not useless, boxers do something similar, gapplers also. But its not sparring. Fighting doesnt look that clean, we work on techniques and draw from them when the time comes.

Look at how Cung Le fights in Sanshou. That is full contact. I realize its a sport with rules, but realfighting in the street is going to have the same principles.

When you do the martial arts you have to look at what it is that you want fom it. Some people will never fight and dont care about the fighting aspect, they get into the depths of the art and what it offers, some do it for fitness.

If your goal is to fight I would reccomend going to the Straight Blast Gym ( www.straightblastgym.com ) and picking up their Funtional JKD tapes. They have one concern, performance.

If it an interest in an art and all it has to offer, then look for that journey.

But keep an open mind, everything is not as it appears.

[Shaolinlueb]

i dont know about this topic sometimes. if you use what you leanr in calss, you can seriously injure your opponent, unless all you do is tournament sparring. kung fu techniques can hurt people when applied right. sparring is more like a kickboxing match to me.

[Dark Knight]

Sparring should be part of your training just like forms, techniques, pad drills......

It teaches you timing and how to reach to someone who is moving and resisting.

By training in all of the you use it together when the times comes.

When we spar we do trows, take downs and grappling not just the stand up striking. This allows you to get use to reacting to a grab or a followup after a takedown on a live target.

There are times that you spar on just stand up or work on just grappling, but you need to combine them to keep those skills sharp.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Sparring should be part of your training just like forms, techniques, pad drills......

It teaches you timing and how to reach to someone who is moving and resisting.

By training in all of the you use it together when the times comes.

When we spar we do trows, take downs and grappling not just the stand up striking. This allows you to get use to reacting to a grab or a followup after a takedown on a live target.

There are times that you spar on just stand up or work on just grappling, but you need to combine them to keep those skills sharp.

i agree, but in tournament sparring i rarely see you being able to sue things other then basic punch (not to front of head) and kicks. cant swep back foot, cant grab, cant use takedowns.

you have to train to keep them sharp but it takes lot of practice. that is another reason people jsut result in mindless rumbling.

[Dark Knight]

It depends on the tournaments on sweeps and take downs.

But I like the social aspect of them, I judge, check out the hotties, get together with other friends.

Thats the biggest part of it for me. (Especially the hotties)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Thats the biggest part of it for me. (Especially the hotties)

what tournaments you go to?

[Starchaser107]

Scrima's tourney had a gang of hotties from various locales

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i dont know about this topic sometimes. if you use what you leanr in calss, you can seriously injure your opponent, unless all you do is tournament sparring. kung fu techniques can hurt people when applied right. sparring is more like a kickboxing match to me.
Naaa... You poke the forehead instead of the eyes, grab pants around inner-thigh instead of actual groin, ect. It teaches character to bounce off the floor a few dosen times.;) You learn to block faster when you have an actual blade comming at you with a training partner who is actually trying to touch you with some intent, not that mamsy-pamsy stab-in-the-general-vacinity-of the-other-person you see in some schools.:D

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Becca
P.S. I have seen fighters who could, and do, use their art the way it was designed to be used. I have seen my Sifus spar. I know that one can spar at 100% and still have the technique visable. May not be your experience, but it is mine...:rolleyes:

i have too. my sifu and 2 sihings do it all the time. im jsut not at the level yet.

Originally posted by Becca
Naaa... You poke the forehead instead of the eyes, grab pants around inner-thigh instead of actual groin, ect. It teaches character to bounce off the floor a few dosen times.;)

yeah but wheres the fun in that ;) :D

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by unixfudotnet
destroying life and what is beautiful in this world will always be something that is bad, and i do not want to do it at all. like all martial arts common theme, only apply what is needed.
destroying life and what is beautiful has no place in martial arts, but stopping an attacker with only what is needed is another. just simply stop the attack, stop the danger. no not destroy it, just simply stop it.


Oh boy:rolleyes:

Somebody's been watching the 'Kung Fu' marathon on TV!

[PangQuan]

I think this entire subject really depends on who we are talking about. Yes many people do not use their form or style well when sparring/fighting, we must also remember that this is the Shaolin Kung Fu forum. In general, these people that everyone is talking about, not using form, were not trained at Shaolin starting from the age of 4-5 in traditional Shaolin methods. I can guarantee you that if you were to watch any high level Shaolin Warrior "sparr" you would see a great deal of Shaolin Style. As a matter of fact, that is all you would see. Many "masters", especially in America, are self proclaimed after only 5 - 10 years. Try 5-10 years of hardened Shaolin training. I am in no way saying that is me, my Sifu on the other hand is. Raised at Shaolin until the age of 14, you can see his "style" in every action he does. Individuals like this man who are hard pressed by tradition and focus every free thought on their martial art, are the individuals that you will see using their form and style when they fight. People like myself however who have, in contrast, a very small amount of training and practice, will not be able to act in such a way. We must remember traditionally in Chinese martial arts, one is not considered a true master until Wu Wei has been accomplished, ie; one can act without concious thought of the matter at hand. When this is acheived then your form and style will be an automatic response to any martial situation.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
I think most of you have forgotten about the cost of a private tution.


Grandmaster Wong's seminar - about $71, 21 hours $1500

one of the Gracie family charged $250 per hour, 21 hours $5250

one of the famous wing chun teachers in Britain charged £70 per hour, 21 hours
£1470 or about $2205

average price of a private lesson in Britain is about £30 per hour 21 hours, £630
or $945

I am not sure about the cost of an average private lesson in American is, but us assume it is $40. 21 hours $840.

You will noticed that Grandmaster Wong is charging people about the twice the market rate, but below what the Gracie is charging.

34th Grandmaster of the ninja paid 1000 yens per month in 1960s in order to learn a sword techniques.

Grandmaster Yip Man paid 12 tales of sliver per month in order to learn wing chun ( he paid that price for at least 5 years). Money needed to pay for a wedding each money.
He charged $8 HK per month for his commerical class. His private class cost $300 HK. This is where he taught the real stuff. All his students like Bruce Lee, Hawkin Cheung, Duncan Leung etc. have to team or paid him individual for several years in order to learn wing chun. For four years private lessons were $14400 HK - completing the whole wing chun system.

Please do not call me stupid if you do not know what the market rate is.
Of course you cannot learn much in 21 hours. If you can then you do not need a teacher at all. You may as well read a book or buy martial arts tapes.

Hitman

[dre_doggX]

I got an answer, it doesnt matter if its external or internal.read

Footwork yup. naw thats it. I took alittle bit of boxing, its the footwork, the steping and manuevering methods. When doing Tai chi, or any kung-fu system, you have to allow tension from the body to sink to the dan-tein, and then this sinks to the ground THROUGH THE FEET, which energy ups up again though the knees. The center of gravity cant be right with out the feet being right... this movemet starts at the dantien but the energy comes from the ground (the feet or the first to get this) the upper body yeilds its tension to the dantien, and its sinking presses energy from the base thats why the dantien is the center of movement but you can move without energy and this cames from the feet

in boxing, its really the feet where the combat is. the hands just express what the legs and feet allow it to do.

if I try to through a punch at an angle or at a distance that is not probably align with my feet, then Iam off balance. I more exotic the art, the more complex the footwork, however the more exotic the art, the less people understand and respect its basics like the footwork...lololloll hhahahaha.

Dre

[Dark Knight]

I grabbed these from another fourum

http://www.kungfuinaction.com/kfiaclips1.wmv

http://www.jiayo.com/videos/86_leitai.mov

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/hammerdem.mpg

http://homepage.mac.com/robertstover/iMovieTheater22.html#

http://www.bullshido.com/mcthrowdown2k3/asiavsluan1.wmv

[Hitman]

Please check out the kung fu forum on the question "who is to blame? Some thoughts"

Some of the answers also answered my question.

I am refering to my own experience only - some time spending a long time fight or sparring does not help you to improve your fighting skill. I did it for four years, 20 -35 minutes a day and 3-4 days a week sparring against different training partners. My fighting skills had not improved one bit, except that I am much faster and stronger. I am much better at attack, but my defensive skills were very poor. After getting no where for two years, I decide to change school. Unfortunately, it turns out that I am no better off than not joining a new school. I had to re-examine everything I did and find out where I gone wrong. My fighting skill has now improved.
To improve your skills - you need an experience coach or teacher and feed back from your partner.
If you just spar at high speed, you do not have the time to think or correct yourself. All your concern will be about survival or beat up your training partner. You only pick up a lot of bad habits that stay with you for rest of your life. You need to sit down and analyse what is wrong with your own fighting skills. This is a job for both you & your teacher.

Hitman

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PangQuan
I think that, in regards to applying technique, and or style into your sparring matches, it is partially a responibility of the teacher to make sure each student understands the application for specific movements.

I disagree slightly. The teacher should be more concerned with whether or not the student understands the principle behind the movement. If he does, then the application will not be as much of a problem, as they will more easily be able to improvise.