help with kwun sau

[wingchunalex]

i have trouble useing kwun sau while sparring, any sugestions?

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[old jong]

After studying wing chun for six years?...Is that a real question? :eek:

[whippinghand]

you must toughen your forearms.

[mun hung]

I'll just say that understanding different applications would be a very good start.

Did you ask you're insructor? What are his thoughts?

[[Censored]]

How is arm conditioning going to improve a kwan sao?

In two sentences or more, please.

[Scott]

Kwun/Kwan whatever Sau is the low sweeping block, right? If it is, I have a problem with it as well.

I can never get it down there in time! It's a large circular distance to cover in a small amount of time, much smaller than the amount of time necessary for his hand to get to your lower area. I find myself dropping elbow to blow and stomach hits (such a smaller movement) and just getting hammer when someone aims for my waist area.

Not that the waist area is a dangerous place to be hit, anyway.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[whippinghand]

Asking too much, but I will try...

(1)If arms are toughened, the kwan sau will be stronger. (2)Therefore the kwan sau's practicality will be more clear. (3) From that point, improving the kwan sau will be easier.

Can't tell you anymore, without disrespecting someone else... Sorry.

[Allan T]

No, it is not the circular block you thinking of...that is a Gwat Sau!

Kwan sau = rolling hands block...and is a two handed block with the Wu Sau and "Bong Sau" fused!! How it is executed is by doing a bong and wu sau simultaneously...the "rolling" occurs when the hand in bong "rolls" (like in the opening set of SLT) and becomes a Wu sau, whilst the hand in Wu flicks into Bong.NB: purpose, as always, should be forward. ;)

[Martial Joe]

Alex...you shouldnt antisipate a certain tecnique while sparring.If you arent then I misunderstood you,sorry...


WhipingHand...you dont need tough fore arms for wing chun.If he uses his body more and has good structure then his moves will be more powerfull,not tougher arms...

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[old jong]

;)

[Sharky]

;)

================================================== =
The battle started with a grapple, he had real long hair so a grabbed a hand full, and chopped 'em in the Adams-apple, his partner in back of you tried to attack you, so I'ma twist 'em up like a pret-zel then I'ma tag you/I can't believe he wanna grapple again, I swung 'em around like I was dancing wit 'em, put his arms in back of his head and snapped 'em again, I fractured his limbs and put em in the figure-"6 subtracted from 10"...

[jameswebsteruk]

We think Kwan Sao is lower bong with simultaneous tan, as used in the sidekick section on the dunmmy. Traditional use is defence against a roundhouse, whilst striking the groin.

Are we all on the same wavelength here?
Allans idea of Kwan soa being bong and wu sao, to our way of thinking is simply bong sao. The back hand is in wu say, or hitting anyway.

Any other variations?

"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running
around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." ;)

[hunt1]

Kwun Sao is a low bong and a tan sao.To be effective you must use your body in conjuntion with the hands.It is a good way to escape from a trap(must use footwork/body also).
I like to demonsrate by having the biggest strongest person in a group cross my arms and try to keep me trapped with all their strength.It cannot be done.If you dont use your body but use arm/upper body strength you can never get out.It is a great confidence builder for women who dont think they could ever deal with a 300LB man.
It is a nice covering technique as well but i do not recommened use against a round kick(i know it is often demonstrated this way).To be at all effective your body must be behind the kwun saoi.e.your pelvis must be facing the oncoming kick.If used against a MT rounhouse thrown by someone who knows how to use one i wish you luck.

[chi-kwai]

against a round kick, i prefer to use sieung gan (gan sao / tan sao) usually in conjunction with a seet ma. Kuen sao is great, but I feel its more difficult to pull off effectively against this sort of thing.

--
chi kwai

[mun hung]

The kwun sau that I was taught is a combination of bong and tan sau. So I guess most of us are on the same page.

As far as conditioning forearms - IMO, it's definitely a plus. Tough forearms can do alot more damage and can protect you better. Think about it.

In regards to using it against a MT roundhouse...I feel sorry for the MT guy who faces someone who really knows how to apply that kwun sau.

:D

[whippinghand]

The toughening is necessary, not for hand to hand, necessarily, but against kicks. Like Mun Hung suggested, done properly, the Thai Boxer will never walk properly again. Done improperly, the Wing Chun practioner will never believe in Wing Chun again, then convert to Muay Thai. A common practice here in Toronto.

[Martial Joe]

If a small child hit you in the leg with a stick,and then a grown man hit you in the leg with a stick wich one would hurt more?


Obviously the man's strike.

The man represents a wing chun guy with good structure who uses his body with a great amount of power,the small child represents the wing chun guy with less usage of the body and pore structure with only hard forearms.

Basicaly what I am saying is that what I said before is correct.

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[sunkuen]

Perhaps the grownman represents tuff workhardened forearms,wich, when combined with good footwork and twisting (circular) hip power,the kwan sau hurts the opponent/victim like hell.On the other hand the wimpy kiddy arms,even when combined with good structural power really doesn't bring a scary picture to mind.Think about practice chucks,with all that foam padding they just dont sting like they should!Sunkuen

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun is simple, but not as simple as you think.

[chi-kwai]

Simplicity does not mean weakness... this is almost as inane as the "external vs. internal" arguments I see all over the place.

Whipping Hand is correct. A well executed sieung or kuen sao will overextend the opponent's leg, either incapacitating or breaking it. More advanced combinations teach the wing chun fighter to follow up the blocked kick with a fung gurk to the opponent's supporting leg, furthering his already bleak situation. And this is only the begining, there are so many other things you can do.

People see Muay Thai boxer's heavily conditioned bodies and legs as such an asset that it outweighs skill and technique. WC lends itself to defeating MT in so many ways. What I see as being the problem is, many Muay Thai practitioners are very fight oriented right from the start, giving the practical knowledge. Most WC practitioners I have seen speaking on lists all ask "why don't we spar?" or "why aren't we in tourneys?" ... The problem is not in the style, its in the individual's experience.

--
chi kwai

[wingchunalex]

to the comment about my still having trouble with kwan sau after 6 years, im allways going to be a student. when you stop learning you start regressing. i have only been practicing kwan sau for 2 years at the most. i ment for sugestions on timing and the like, which we can allways get better at. someone who as done wing chun 20 years can always be practicing finding the right timing for a technique. learning is never ending. thanks everyone for you comments. thanks for the comments about iron forarms, but i pretty have that one down. just to elaberate a little more, i can use kwan sau well when my arms are crossed, and with a hook kick, i have trouble timing the tan sau part for a high punch sence the tan sau is fairly close to the body as opposed to when tan is done normally and more extended. but thanks again everyone.

know yourself don't show yourself, think well of yorself don't tell of yourself. lao tzu

[hunt1]

Your problem if there is one,is that you are trying to block.there are no blocks in WC.if you block your timing will always be off.Why?because you are letting the opponant dictate the timing.To lock you must see punch analyze trajectory of punch,determine proper response.i.e. block and then get block up.
If your sifu is still teacing you blocking after 6years then i mighgt suggest that you might need another sifu.kwun sao is a great cover.if can be done many ways but it is a cover.It covers a broad area of your body and therefore no need to worry about blocking if a punch is headed anywhere from your nose to your mid-section the kwun will pick it up if properly performed.

If done with proper intent the impact of his punch meeting your kwun will most likely unbalance your opponant thus destroying his timing.
Frankly it is hard for me to see a kwun vs punch.when within punching range the kwun can be used to smother possible attacks while you move in close.Even against a kick the only time my kwun will come out is when i am caught flat footed or surprised by the attack.Generally when my opponant moves i move first.Good kickers have gotten the drop on me so to speak before though and i am sure they will again ,i am kinda slow.

[mun hung]

Think about two men the same size, one with hardened conditioned forearms versus the guy who does'nt do any kind of conditioning at all for his forearms. Who would put more of a hurting on the opponent and protect himself more? It's obvious.

But then again...if you don't know the proper application of kwun sau against a roundhouse kick, all the conditioning in the world will do you little good.

[ATENG]

well who would put more hurt on the opponent, one who spent more time toughening arms or one who spent more time bettering technique? still obvious..?

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[mun hung]

I think you should read the entire post next time.

[wingchunwsl]

this is the post regarding to muy thai. muy thai is a great style. one could already be a good fighter in 8 months learning muy thai. it's like a sport.

in wing chun, if you practice, you'll get better and better all the time. there's no limiations. in muy thai, like other sports, when ur older, you'll have to quit and ur body is going to be all sore and aching.

wingchunalex, i had it worse than you. i thought you couldn't use kwan sao against a kick! yeah i thought i heard something wrong so for a little while, i was totally off the wrong track. :o :D

[whippinghand]

hunt1, you are correct.

[Allan T]

I do apologise humbly my friends!!!

You guys are right...Kwan Sau is a bong with a Tan not Wu as i have previously so incorrectly stated!! :o

And yes, Frank and Hunt1 are correct...has to be completed with body movement for it to be really effective. I suppose that goes for most techniques if your are small build, but especially for roundhouse attacks (either kicks or punches).

Just a question....Don't you guys feel that the best defence to any roundhouse attack is forward step and strike (punch or kick)?!?!?

:)

[hunt1]

Allen i agree stepping in is best but not alawys possible.sometimes you can be caught flat footed when an attack comes so you must have other responses ready to deal with them.