Youth and Wing Chun

[Taff]

How important is youth to Wing Chun?

I'm 20 and am at Chum Kiu level in Yip Chun lineage.

Apparently when you're my age your reflexes are at their peak in your life. Naturally, that is.

But I guess the important thing is having the *correct* reflex. So if I got to the point where I have replaced crappy reflexes with better, Wing Chun ones (I'm heading there...) then surely I would have some sort of advantage in terms of speed.

I've heard that Wing Chun is an art for all ages. If so, if one gets naturally slower as one ages then how do you keep up the level of skill?

I've also wondered about other things, like the strength of my knees, proneness to injury, natural fitness etc that are related to age.

Not sure if age has much relevance but I'm interested in hearing your opinions on the matter.

Cheers

[couch]

I have seen a video of Wang Kiu at age 75 and he moves so fluidly and still has his "ging."

Yes, age will wear you down but you have lots of time to make it come together now.

Yip Man said: "If you don't work hard when you're young, you'll have nothing when you're old."

Work hard now and you're skills will blossom.

[Vajramusti]

Taff- I dont know where you are or who you are learning wing chun from. Assuming that you have a good teacher and you
practice regularly including the forms and chi sao...wing chun will treat your reflexes well until you enter a long term care facility
and or quit practicing. You are at a great age for devleoping long lasting skills. You will become more and more efficient.
I am not a natural athlete- but I have compensated successfully with martial skills for a long time- wing chun alone since 1976- so I can speak from first hand experience.

Unlike most commercial places I do not play the pied piper in getting small kids into ma programs with the attraction of belts and trophies and conning their parents that their Johnny will be the next BL. Except for an occasional surprise- the sil lim tao- doing it properly- not just knowing the sequences will put 10 year olds to sleep.But you are at a great age.

[Ernie]

Age is a relative term

I just turned 37
I’m a lot faster stronger more flexible and have more endurance then when I was 27
Or 17

Why ?
Simple I train to improve , don’t just stay fit but exceed my current levels
Now what I have learned is life has a funny sense of humor
Like a sign wave , highs and lows

If you learn to ride and accept the wave you will push when you can and rest when you need to

My friend Jamie Essex is in his mid 40’s and will be trying to set a world record sprinting this year

He didn’t start training for it until 4 years ago was just a regular gym guy and martial artist

He has unofficially broken it , now just has to catch the wave on the right day with the right people timing him

Ron http://www.ronsarchian.com / [ another friend from the same gym]set the world record for non stop punching a heavy bag went like 36 hours or something like that , he is training for most hits in one hour he doubled the current record while he was doing his last one and is a stuntman and martial artist
He is in his late 40’s

Getting old is a fact yes but it’s how old you allow yourself to get

Put in the work , respect your body and you will just keep getting better

Or be lazy and you can feel like 50 when your 25

[sihing]

I agree with Ernie, it all depends on how well you keep the engine oiled per say. If you continually treat the body badly then you will degrade at a much faster pace than normal, visa versa if you treat it right, with moderation of course. As for the Wing Chun, I believe you will get better with age simply because your skill will increase over time. Look at William Cheung, a man in his mid sixties and is still very fast, and how often do you think he trains now. He did all that work earlier on in his life and now he has a base set of skill sets that will never leave him. For myself personally, I believe I am a better practicioner overall of Wing Chun than I was back in 96' when I got my instructors certificate. My kicks are not as gracefully because I'm not stretching everyday and kicking everyday like I was back then, but my technique and understanding of the concepts and principals is at a higher level now than then and it shows. I do lift weights but this is not to try and improve my Wing Chun but other vanity reasons, lol, I hated being skinny, but I'm sure the side effects of the weight training has helped the Wing Chun improve also, because my body is stronger and more of everything can be applied to the movements in Wing Chun.

James

[anerlich]

Everyone ages and dies.

You can't do much about it, so just do the best you can with wherever you are.

Performance and athleticism can be pursued at any age. Otherwise, why go on living?

[Fresh]

Originally posted by anerlich
Performance and athleticism can be pursued at any age. Otherwise, why go on living?

The privlege of annoying your offspring. :D

[old jong]

Ernie!
Funny to hear you talking about "being 37"!...I can relate to that because I also was better at 37 than 20!...Normal because it is when a man begins to add his mind in the balance.It is the apex,between youth and age.
At 37,I was in TKD, jumping and kicking around,I was running faster than most younger guys in the class.I was 200pds,very strong (still am) and everybody was in fear of my punches.I was also smoking almost two packs a day and there was no problems at all with that!...
Now I'm 52,I quitted smoking many years ago and I do my best to be in good shape. I know it is possible to stay in good condition whatever the age but I also know that the amount of work necessary to be a top athlete at my age is a lot more than if I was 30 something or even 40.(too much for a normal life anyway) This is a territory you will explore in 10 to 15 years and,you need to live it to really know.Forget all about your present ideas and concepts,you must be there to know.There is also the middle-age crisis you must face.(all men face it want it or not! It is a passage)It is when a man can't accept the aging process and try to be the young buck forever.He feels his mortality suddenly and start to date young women,drive a sport car,ruins his life or...You will get the idea someday!....I ride a motorcycle!....;)

[Ernie]

Jong
Thank you for the words of wisdom sir ,
I have many checks and balances , I never smoke [ beyond a few good Cuban cigars , maybe 3 a year ] I rarely drink [ celebrations or vacations ]
I have been a vegetarian for along time and been taking care of my body since my 20’s , I also have professional help =) many of my friends are in the health and fitness industry and quite a few are in there 50’s and in better shape then me !
So my life style and environment is geared towards taking care of myself and producing results along the way ,[ remember I don’t have kids , so I have plenty of time to be selfish ]
These same 50 year old friends are the people I go white water rafting , snow boarding , running , hit the gym , and even spar with
And the only thing they caution me on [ and I’m already experiencing , is injuries take longer to heal , but with good supplements the process speeds up , and I need to allow myself to rest , [ I have way to much energy for my own good ]

So beyond unforeseen situations [accidents or disease ] I figure I’ll be good to go for along time

The person that inspired me to get healthy and research fitness , was a 63 year young man that was in better shape then I will probably ever be , the guy was ripped
He told me sure I can't lift the same amount of weight anymore have to respect my knees , but I can still beat my grand children up a mountain in a race , I will never forget that guy , I think he is still a PE coach at a high school running strong

I’m sure I will slow down that is just life , but life will have to catch me first
;) ;) :p

[old jong]

Ernie- Your positive mind will do you no harm,I'm sure!...

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Ernie
... He told me sure I can't lift the same amount of weight anymore have to respect my knees ...



Myth.


Fred Hatfield was the first person to squat over 1000 pounds in competition. (1014 to be exact). He was 45 when he did it. Watch it (http://www.drsquat.com/videos/1014VMHB.rm)

Today, he's 17 years older and doesn't compete, but still squats 600+ pounds on a regular basis.


Yesterday, at 12 weeks post-op knee surgery (ACL reconstruction, partial menisectomy), I full squated 200 pounds (raw) - with my surgeon's approval. While I may not want to "climb the mountain" that Fred climbed, I'm halfway back to where I was before. With a little luck, next week I'll be cleared for more ballistic movements.

Take care of your knees by squating: "Kneed" to Know (http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5)

[Ernie]

see Tom even more inspiration:)

i have been doing squats since day one ;)


good luch on your recovery

[Taff]

OK, thanks everyone for the replies.

I must say I'm impressed and a little surprised with how there are people here who are older than 20 and consider themselves to be in better shape now than they were back then.

Heh, maybe I shouldn't worry about age so much :)

[YongChun]

I am 59 and have taught a lot of people including many University students. Quite honestly I did not find they had a speed advantage, strength advantage or fitness advantage in chi sau or sparring.

Youth does have a healing advantage though because injuries seem to take a much longer time to heal with age.

I posted a clip of a 72 year old Hung style master and he still looks very fast and powerful. To me it confirms the stories of my Hung style teachers that their teachers were still very good in their 70's and 80's. They died in their 90's. I saw my Hung style teacher when he was in his 80's. He still had a very fast punch that packed a lot of force.

Of course there are problems that do come with age. He couldn't last in a 15 round boxing match for example. In that area youth is definitely good. I heard that strength drops of quite a bit with age but by some of the posts today, not so much if you keep it up.

I have heard of 70 something year old fencing masters still being able to beat the so called fast young guys. I think speed doesn't go down that much and furthermore economy of motion, experience, not wasting energy, being able to read the opponents movements etc. all play a part to enhance that speed even more. But for a pure athletic event such as any Olympic event then youth wins.

Here is the Hung style teacher at age 72: look at Chiu Chi Wai doing the Tiger and Crane form.
http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/default.htm


Ray

[old jong]

Originally posted by YongChun


Here is the Hung style teacher at age 72: look at Chiu Chi Wai doing the Tiger and Crane form.
http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/default.htm


Ray

The guy is impressive but in reality the martial art world is full of these 70 and 80 years old "forever young" practitioners. This is the added bonus benefit of Martial arts.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun


http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/default.htm


Ray

Ray

What the hell is this guy doing Hung Gar : Chiu Chi Ling - Belgium - 2000

looks like he is squeezing out a turd :D

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
Ernie:

What the hell is this guy doing Hung Gar : Chiu Chi Ling - Belgium - 2000

looks like he is squeezing out a turd :D

I don't know. My Hung style never had any of those kinds of forms. We did everything as fast as possible. It may be that that Chiu Chi Ling was constipated and that exercise helps him to go to the bathroom? The SLT has a similar beneficial effect but can produce results a lot sooner? I always thought his Hung style looked too slow, nothing like Jet Li.

Ray

[PaulH]

I wonder what his female student smiled about? =)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by PaulH
I wonder what his female student smiled about? =)

Maybe she caught on that he wasn't really doing Hung Gar but was just joking with everyone. In the movie Prodical son, Samo does a going to the bathroom form as well when he is starting to teach his new student some Wing Chun. The form in that movie and the Hung style demonstration look very similar.

Ray

[PaulH]

She should be commended for keeping a very straight and serious face right afterward. It must be the hardest thing to do in her KF experience... =D

[kj]

A friend of mine practices Hung Ga. He is very good, though he insists he isn't. Scary, in fact. He is very precise, very together, and very strong, fast and big. I don't remember the family name of the Hung Ga he practices; there is a lot of secretism, and he's pretty low key about it. His forms also have some (though not quite as much) of the slow, "qi building" movements in them similar to the referenced video; this is how he explained it anyway. I can never really understand what that means, but if oxygenation of the blood and tissues is involved, maybe there is something to it.

It is obvious to me that Hung Ga is NOT a woman's art, symbolically or otherwise. That's not to say there aren't any women practitioners; of course there are, and some of them may even be quite good. I've never met my friend's sister, but she is supposed to be very good. He says she is better than he is despite being much smaller, though I have a hard time imagining it. Nonetheless, in terms of a natural fit for women or competing without reliance on strong physical attributes of size, speed, and strength, I'd say not.

For Taff: Youth and youthful attributes are certainly a great benefit in Wing Chun as in virtually everything, and to be envied. It isn't the only thing and everything though. The optimism expressed is largely from those who obviously work extraordinarily hard and invest a lot to retain their youthful attribute; kudos to them, and may they enjoy the fruits of their labors and advance wisdom for years to come. Unfortunately, a far greater percentage of us succumb to nature's relentless gnawing in all manner of ways. (And if you don't work hard at it, you will too.) Yet we keep practicing and progressing in Wing Chun despite it. In my case it boils down to sheer stubbornness, and quite possibly a touch of madness (so I'm told). ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[YongChun]

Originally posted by kj


It is obvious to me that Hung Ga is NOT a woman's art, symbolically or otherwise. That's not to say there aren't any women practitioners; of course there are, and some of them may even be quite good. I've never met my friend's sister, but she is supposed to be very good. He says she is better than he is despite being much smaller, though I have a hard time imagining it. Regards,
- Kathy Jo

I can imagine it this way: In my Hung style, the art was tailored to the individual. So short stocky people might specialize in Tiger stuff, maybe slender ladies might specialize in Crane or Snake form etc. According to the story this lady who knew Crane style beat up her husband who was much stronger and used Tiger style.

So there may be a way for the lady to do Hung style and handle the strong stuff. My Hung style teacher said that Wing Chun was very similar to what he learned as small circle Kung Fu. He said in his lineage that was taught at the end of the learning cycle. Wing Chun is supposed to be able to handle Hung style and within Hung style there are methods for handling Hung style as well by using quick evasive footwork, angling, proper timing and distancing etc. (in general getting out of the way like a bullfighter does and then attacking with rapid multiple strikes).

Ray