observations both recent and old [Archive]

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 09:46 PM

Randomly.....

1) The guys criticizing the fighting are always sitting in the cheap seats, have never fought and don't train in gyms where there is any contact

2) People who come off with corny lines about "superior" traditional technique, "superior" internal techniques, excuses about "rules", or flat and unexamined comments about "it's just a sport" also seem to be the people who seldom play with contact, never venture outside their school to work with outsiders and cerainly never will test their "theories" in a real combat sport

3) The group in obesrvation #2 are also the same guys who brag about "bare knuckle matches" where the details are few and it is impossible to find out if any of it is remotely true

4) People who try and denigrate San Da by calling it "kickboxing" and acting as if "kickboxing" is a bad word have

a) never fought san da
b) never will have the guts to fight san da
c) never trained in san da
d) and usually also conform to obesrvations 1, 2 and 3

5) Perhaps by mere coincidence, insert sarcasm here, those in the above groups also seem to be from schools that never seem to put any fighters out to do anything ever...

MonkeySlap Too

10-28-2004, 09:51 PM

6.) Put down San Da competition because it "limits" them. As if limits don't occur in nature, or are a small price to pay for testing live.

7.) Won't fight outside thier school, or god forbid, spar with MMA types, or under any rules that might put them at a disadvantage.

8.) Those that think kickboxing is bad, never fought a competent Muay Thai player. (ouch).

9.) Those that think CMA is useless in free-fighting never played San Da (San Shou, whatever)

10.) Most training systems could benefit by focus on details, rather than memorizing more moves.

Sorry to hijack... just in a mood after playing this weekend.

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 09:54 PM

11) can't seem to explain why hundreds of so called "masters" got KO'd in under a round in Thailand... yet the "sport" guys doing the "bad kickboxing" have beaten over 35 professional Muay Thai atheltes in the past year or so

MonkeySlap Too

10-28-2004, 09:55 PM

Um, for the stuff I've been ranting about all morning?

David Jamieson

10-28-2004, 09:56 PM

i don't know how criticizing a hypothetical group of people who may or may not exist makes your point any stronger.

And what is your point? You are the greatest? San Da is the greatest and everything else suxors?

I don't know where you're coming from with this categoring of the hypothetical negative critics who buy tickets cheap or not to your events?

:p

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 09:59 PM

Kung Lek, nothing "hypothetical" about them, these are observations of real people, a lot of them are HERE, and the fact you just had to respond.....

MonkeySlap Too

10-28-2004, 10:06 PM

Nah, it's just results focused thinking.

San Da is okay. It has limitations. But it CHOOSES those to acheive it's goal. And if your smart, you aren't bound by them.

I prefer that over just going through stuff because that's how it was always done, and someday I'll have some skill.

This is not putting down TCMA. Just saying those skills can be taught better. I've spent a long time trying to figure that out. So have a lot of people way better than me... It's a good thing if we want to preserve the essence of these skills.

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 10:16 PM

I guess I shouldn't be, but I am still amazed that people don't grasp some basic realities about what is called "traditional"

Why didn't the so called "masters of old" but on gear? Simple answer really, they didn't have any....

My teacher said when he was an orphan living in a Buddhist temple in the middle of nowhere, they trained with what they had, ie NOTHING

He went to the army and they had bags, they had gloves, they even had mats... and rather than whining about how in the "old days" they trained without these things, they USED THEM

GASP

Another thing people so casually IGNORE, how did guys in the past get skill? BY FIGHTING.....

Every teacher I know who has skills and can fight from the old generation has a closet full of war stories, many from actual wars! (vs Japan, civil war, cult rev. etc)....

They fought, they learned from it, they moved on, the got more experience, they got better. They didn't get better by staying in their schools and doing no contact drills...

On the flip side, for every Chan Tai San or Chang Dung Sheng, there were probably 20 or 30 guys who got knifed and died in their first encounter.... You hear about the "masters" but everyone forgets there was some guy training next to them the same way who didn't develop functional skill

IN the "old days" who needed tournaments when living every day meant fighting to survive?

And finally, for the "deadly stuff" crowd, for those who talk about "rules".... you know who you are.... just look at the history of JUDO

Judo, you call it a sport, Jiro Kano called it a way to develop functional skill = randori

Rather than cop out and not practice hard because there are so many deadly things in classical jujutsu, they rolled live with a select group of skills

In the 1880's, in order to get a lucrative contract to teach the police, the so called "sport" guys of Judo challenge the so called "deadly" guys of Jujutsu

What everyone likes to forget is that these matches were NO RULES, striking, etc....

Even today, Judo guys like to be PC and gloss over this event. But the original record is still out there.

The Judo guys won every match, they even KILLED a few of the "deadly guys" with their "sport technique"

MonkeySlap Too

10-28-2004, 10:24 PM

Coach Ross,
Lets not let facts get into the way of wearing my silk outfit here...;)

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 10:29 PM

"They fought, they learned from it, they moved on, the got more experience, they got better. They didn't get better by staying in their schools and doing no contact drills..."

agreed, fighting is a key component. Without it its just mental masterbation.

"On the flip side, for every Chan Tai San or Chang Dung Sheng, there were probably 20 or 30 guys who got knifed and died in their first encounter.... You hear about the "masters" but everyone forgets there was some guy training next to them the same way who didn't develop functional skill"

This is because the facts of life are clear. Not everyone gets good. People die anyway even if they are good.

What bugs me is people on every side claiming a high percentage of "killers" in a particular group. You have 300 students, are all of them competitive winners? No. Its a only a fraction. You will have students that for reason or another, mental or physical, that will not get "good" no matter what you do or what style you teach. Welcome to life. The only things that really matter are heart and pain.

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 10:34 PM

The question here is, is San da perfect, it can't be criticized?

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 10:41 PM

Or, the guys that only WATCH the sporting events........

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 11:00 PM

Abel,

But here is the key, not all my students are competition level fighters, but ALL of them spar with contact and after 4 to 6 months they are dealing with punching, kicking, knees and wrestling..... compare that to MOST of the kung fu schools in this country

And also take note, of the 300 or so we have, we now have about 25 active fighters, approaching 10%....

Compare that to the traditonal programs

I'm open to criticism, what do you want to criticize? Do we wear gear? In the amatuers we sure do, until you can prove you have the skills, until you can develop the skills, you need some protection. Most people are not life long, dedicated warriors.

Head gear, yes, because frankly is saves lives. The studies are out there on secondary impact syndrome, it's not a debatable issue. If it just saves ONE LIFE, that's the whole point

Elbows are nasty, the average amateur doesn't need to get hit with an elbow to know that... Most of the KB world doesn't use them either, only Thailand, and even in Thailand, it is not as common as people make out. They use them in the big fights where they money will give them time to heal, but most guys fight evry 2 and 1/2 weeks and if they got elbowed all the time they wouldn't keep up that pace

Want to be a bad ass and fight with no gear, with elbows and even with submissions standing, go PROFESSIONAL.... it is really that simple

Shaolinlueb

10-28-2004, 11:01 PM

trainin for self defense and training to fight sport is different. most martial arts these days are taught for self defense. thai boxers train adn condition themselves for fights. mma fighters train for fights. so of course they will have more fighting experience then the kung fu guy who goes and does it twice a week for self defense.... :rolleyes:

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
trainin for self defense and training to fight sport is different. most martial arts these days are taught for self defense. thai boxers train adn condition themselves for fights. mma fighters train for fights. so of course they will have more fighting experience then the kung fu guy who goes and does it twice a week for self defense.... :rolleyes:

It's a tired excuse and frankly, it's crap

Do you know what the two most comon attacks are going to be in the street? Mostly likely either a big hook to your head or a tackle. No one is going to attack you with mantis claw #12...

You want to say the word "sport" or "fight sport" and make it sound like it has nothing to do with a real fight... it's pathetic and worst of all, it's illogical

Ring sports teach you to block full power shots that are not pre-arranged, that are done by someone who really wants to do some damage and often by people who don't do things the way you and your class mates do.... IE much more realistic way to learn to defend than class room drills

San Da, wrestling, MMA, all these so called "sports" have you throwing and blocking throws EXACTLY as it would be in real life, ie against a resisting person, in fact, they may be BETTER, better trained and better condidioned, than the guy you may have to fight in the street

I hate the lame "self defense" that is passed off in this country frequenlty, "ok, he grabs me"

Student holds you, half asleep, half dead, no resistance, never changes his grips or works as you work

"master" proceeds to walk through the "technique" with the student doing no resistance, it's like chopping up a dead corpse, and just as practical :rolleyes:

SifuAbel

10-28-2004, 11:15 PM

There is nothing "traditional" about not fighting as part of your training.

Equating the term with the practice is wrong.

If I were to criticize anything, it woulnd't be the "conditions" bags, gloves, etc.

lkfmdc

10-28-2004, 11:20 PM

Traditionalists always talk about how fighting was part of the tradition in the past, I won't disagree with that... you can argue two separate points

1) a HUGE problem is that real "old school" attitude of sparring and training hard HAS disappeared.... so cranky old timers like Abel and I can commiserate and all.... but really that isn't what I am arguing here

2) What I AM arguing, is that even in the good "old days", when they were training to fight, it was, pardon the expression, "hit or miss".....

There are better ways to train to fight than many of the old traditional formats, and yes, I think forms have become a huge issue in traditional training formats...

Of course, combine issues 1 and 2 together and you can see just how badly it gets here in the US under the banner "traditional"

red5angel

10-28-2004, 11:39 PM

2) What I AM arguing, is that even in the good "old days", when they were training to fight, it was, pardon the expression, "hit or miss".....

can you explain what you mean here better?

Sow Choy

10-28-2004, 11:41 PM

I think San Shou is necassary for the survival of what we think of as traditional Kung Fu...

If not Wushu will just move us all out of the way and claim to be traditional... which seems to be happening in some parts...

It all depends on your teacher/s though, Ours (Lee Koon Hung), believed one with the other, but our style is very adaptable...

Even if your style is not adaptable, you the person are... If you study Wing Chun or perhaps Southern mantis, I believe you should learn Some basic kicks throws, etc...

San Shou is the closest and safest sport for Chinese Martial Arts... Have to respect that...

Joe

Shaolinlueb

10-28-2004, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by lkfmdc
It's a tired excuse and frankly, it's crap

Do you know what the two most comon attacks are going to be in the street? Mostly likely either a big hook to your head or a tackle. No one is going to attack you with mantis claw #12...

You want to say the word "sport" or "fight sport" and make it sound like it has nothing to do with a real fight... it's pathetic and worst of all, it's illogical

Ring sports teach you to block full power shots that are not pre-arranged, that are done by someone who really wants to do some damage and often by people who don't do things the way you and your class mates do.... IE much more realistic way to learn to defend than class room drills

San Da, wrestling, MMA, all these so called "sports" have you throwing and blocking throws EXACTLY as it would be in real life, ie against a resisting person, in fact, they may be BETTER, better trained and better condidioned, than the guy you may have to fight in the street

I hate the lame "self defense" that is passed off in this country frequenlty, "ok, he grabs me"

Student holds you, half asleep, half dead, no resistance, never changes his grips or works as you work

"master" proceeds to walk through the "technique" with the student doing no resistance, it's like chopping up a dead corpse, and just as practical :rolleyes:

um im sorry if thats how you trained self defense. if thats the way you did it then i would be in san da like you. and im not saying san da wont work in a real fight, cause it will. you jsut tired of the lame masters and fakes im guessing. me too man, me too.

lkfmdc

10-29-2004, 12:00 AM

I went out to get a cup of coffee, now I'm back, while walking to the store, I realized I should thank Abel because he made me clarify the argument a little more...

Also, if more people were like Joe, I wouldn't have as many issues with the traditional world. In reality there is a lot of common ground we can work together on....

I see aspects of traditional that either can be updated or dropped.

I've been in martial arts for close to 27 years now. I'm not going to say you learn nothing from doing forms, but I am going to say you can learn the same things without learning forms. I think it is a matter of context.

If I was a teacher, and I had only a few students, and they showed up at different times, certainly easier to have you do forms work...

Line basics, I don't see much point in doing techniques in isolation, in the air, with no resistance. I prefer to do techniques on equipment for power and focus, and in partner drills for application, distance, timing and context

My "deadly technique" answer is structural. Rather than throw the baby out with the bath water.... Drill live what you can drill live, if you have the structure, you can "plug back in" the deadly stuff a lot easier than never working "live" but thinking that if you had to, you "dim mak his butt"

Elbows are a classic example. We drill them on equipment, but we don't live drill them or spar with them. But if you spar, live drill with a safer replacement, you have a better than of pulling off the elbow if you have to in a real fight....

Live drilling kills a lot of the myths, nonsense and BS, but I see all too little of it

I see a lot of very pre-set application drills, and many falling into another trap, pre-suppositions that aren't necessarily true in today's modern world

If you teach a guy an application based upon a lot of bridging, I'm sorry to say, he's extremely unlikely to ever be attacked that way in the US in 2004/05

You need to update your curriculum to reflect more modern attack forms

For example, today you need to teach a woman a situation that most TCMA teachers probably never considered, the "snatch" with a van....

SifuAbel

10-29-2004, 12:38 AM

You're welcome.

Everthing has its place, doing a technique first in the air is a quick way to get the proper function.

One example of a trap I see, is when a person get used to a certain feel for punching on a bag and doesn't recoil and recover their gaurd. Its all thrust and no snap. I've seen it time and time again where said person misses and hurts their elbow because of poor recoil. And they get hit in turn from poor guard recovery.

I do agree that doing preset techniques that go over 2 or 3 moves are a waste. And that the "frozen victim" on the other end is not helping matters. When we do techniques it starts with slow practice and escalates to full. In the upper ranks the student is directed to try and land the blow. We also tell students not to repeat robotically. To break up their rythm. So even if we are doing a particular move, the student doesn't know exaclty when its coming. We then encourage the move or moves to be done in sparring that day. I always found the practice of doing 10 things on a manequin to be unrealistic.

"a HUGE problem is that real "old school" attitude of sparring and training hard HAS disappeared...."

Thats why you don't see me argueing for the schools today, but for the way it should be.

To compare yourself with the schools today is not the same as to compare with the schools of yesterady. So yes, many schools today can't come up with the same numbers as you do. But , you can't make it abosolute for all time. You will have so-so students.

What exactly is meant by "bridgeing" , so many have different ideas of this. Is it just counter striking?

SifuAbel

10-29-2004, 12:52 AM

One observation of my own is in saying that kicking is somehow not kung fu. Which is totally wrong.

There are many kicks in kung fu especially in the northern styles. There is reason why you don't see many of the long range kicks in forms.

Its simple, they were practiced seperately. They were concidered singular techniques. Techniques that moved the opponent out of the immediate hand range.

You'll see medium and short range kicking in forms. The tai tzu I do has front leg side, cresent, tornado, front, knee thrust and many others in forms but sparingly. We have a form that has a total of one long range kick move(round house and hook combo) in the whole form.

So if you see a kung fu guy doing a round house, don't go off the handle yelling "TKD".

lkfmdc

10-29-2004, 01:04 AM

I'm not ignoring you Abel, I just can't start a long post now, I'm about to step up to teach....

But considering "Bouh Chouh Cham Seh" is exactly a leg kick I always laugh when people scream MT....

SifuAbel

10-29-2004, 01:05 AM

well, there ya go.................

l8rs......

Ai Lek Ou Seun

10-29-2004, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by lkfmdc

If you teach a guy an application based upon a lot of bridging, I'm sorry to say, he's extremely unlikely to ever be attacked that way in the US in 2004/05

You need to update your curriculum to reflect more modern attack forms

[/B]

Your previous explanation of bridging was something akin to people throwing a punch, having it blocked, then retracting the hand and throwing punch with the other fist.

In real kung fu you don't usually retract the hand once it has entered the guard. That's why it's important to be able to generate so called "inch power."

So I'm not sure what you are talking about.

:confused:

Ai Lek Ou Seun

10-29-2004, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
[B]You're welcome.

Everthing has its place, doing a technique first in the air is a quick way to get the proper function.

One example of a trap I see, is when a person get used to a certain feel for punching on a bag and doesn't recoil and recover their gaurd. Its all thrust and no snap. I've seen it time and time again where said person misses and hurts their elbow because of poor recoil. And they get hit in turn from poor guard recovery.

B]

Great points. A common problem with boxers that I've trained with. They get so used to punching thru things that they over extend. You can get away with it in boxing but kung fu is a 3 dimensional game involving attacks from any body part or direction. Not just the fists. ;)

SifuAbel

10-29-2004, 01:10 AM

Yes and most of the styles(if not all) I do have you deflecting (or grabbing, etc) and striking simultaneously.

Which to me is just good counter punching. The block, retract, punch is more like karate.

SifuAbel

10-29-2004, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
Great points. A common problem with boxers that I've trained with. They get so used to punching thru things that they over extend. You can get away with it in boxing but kung fu is a 3 dimensional game involving attacks from any body part or direction. Not just the fists. ;)

Not just punching through, since some moves require you to do so, but more like depending on the surface your hitting to be there and so not working on recovery. Not all boxers do this, it can happen to anybody.

Ai Lek Ou Seun

10-29-2004, 01:18 AM

lkfmdc-

It seems like you are trying to improve on things that don't need to be improved.

Yeah, more kung fu guys should get out there and spar and do it on a regular basis.

But the training methods are already there, no need to reinvent the wheel.

Ya dig?

Eric

Ai Lek Ou Seun

10-29-2004, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by SifuAbel
Not just punching through, since some moves require you to do so, but more like depending on the surface your hitting to be there and so not working on recovery. Not all boxers do this, it can happen to anybody.

I here you. It's when you don't "snap" your technique and instead try to "push" thru. You end up relying on the other person/bag etc. to hold you up as you push thru. It's a symptom of poor balance and not "finishing" the movement. I see it mostly in beginners.

Sow Choy

10-29-2004, 01:21 AM

lkfmdc...

I kinda agree that forms may be a recent invention... More combos and technique oriented moves were taught and used... But teaching to the masses may have caused the line training similar to the military...

Shek Kin told me that forms were invented by martial artists to entertain the emperor... A much better way than fighting to the death, don't you think?

So you can see the entertainment value in traditional arts for either flow or show, so some moves may not be as solid as others... Just like Chi Gung, so many tricks... Martial Arts was a form of entertainment for a long time...

Many of my sihings in Hong Kong worked at Ocean Park for over 20 years doing Chi Kung shows...

Joe