Thus as I heard there are four power types [Archive]

t_niehoff

10-21-2004, 05:04 AM

Hendrik wrote: "Thus as I heard there are four power types hidden in the SLT set."

anerlich wrote: "I maintain SLT has little to do with power development except rather indirectly."

**Imagine if you were a western-style boxer and you decided to create a linked set of the tools (jab, cross, hook, cuffing, ducking, etc.) of boxing. Could you in that "form" separate the tool from the body mechanics -- their power source? Isn't it the case the the tool and body-mechanic are really two sides of one coin? In my view, the rear cross isn't just in how you move your arm but in how you move your entire body; the rear cross includes the power source. Same for a tan sao in the SNT.

-----

YongChun wrote:

Power is the rate at which work is done. It is the work/time ratio. Mathematically, it is computed using the following equation.

**This points out that many terms have several meanings and contexts. "Power", like many of the terms thrown around (force, energy, etc.), has a very narrow and specific meaning to a physicist and a different meaning to the layman/non-physicist. So when folks use these physics terms and talk about "being scientific" they would make a physicist cringe (fwiw, my undergraduate degree was in physics).

Regards,

Terence

CFT

10-21-2004, 05:33 AM

Terence, I agree with you about using physics terms to describe scenarios in fighting/physical contact. Everyone likes to use the terms: force, power, momentum, torque, inertia, energy, velocity, etc. But I'm just not sure what terms should apply, or are really relevant, when describing the "power" of a punch.

I'm always interested in discussions like this, but from your previous posts I'd wager that you think there is limited mileage in examining mechanistic models. My undergraduate degree was in Physics too.

t_niehoff

10-21-2004, 05:45 AM

CFT wrote:

Terence, I agree with you about using physics terms to describe scenarios in fighting/physical contact. Everyone likes to use the terms: force, power, momentum, torque, inertia, energy, velocity, etc. But I'm just not sure what terms should apply, or are really relevant, when describing the "power" of a punch.

**Exactly.

I'm always interested in discussions like this, but from your previous posts I'd wager that you think there is limited mileage in examining mechanistic models.

**IMO, looking to body mechanics is essential but I don't think trying to relate them to "physics" (more accurately, poorly understood physics) is the way to go. For example, a baseball pitcher trying to develop his fastball pitch isn't concerned with f=ma or angular momentum or what have you. Instead he "learns" the pitch (the mechanics) and then practices it, plays with it, trying different things, with a constant, critical eye toward results.

My undergraduate degree was in Physics too.

**Then you probably get that same headache when folks refer to Newtonian physics (f=ma) in an attempt to explain complex biomechanical actions.

Regards,

Terence

CFT

10-21-2004, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**Then you probably get that same headache when folks refer to Newtonian physics (f=ma) in an attempt to explain complex biomechanical actions.Yes! I was rebuked by you, and quite rightly so, on a previous occasion for doing almost exactly that.

Whilst you can make some crude models just applying F=ma to the fist, arm, torso, etc. and even include things like body rotation you are still far from the whole picture of the human body, especially the joints and tendons.

Even sports scientists that do computational modelling break things down to a few joints, and frequently have to limit the degrees of freedom in the joints that they model, just so they can get some insights. Otherwise it ends up as a complicated mess.

45degree fist

10-21-2004, 08:43 AM

respectfully:

You still havent answered my question Yellowpikachu.

Wher did you here that?

PaulH

10-21-2004, 08:59 AM

'THUS I HAVE HEARD' - The traditional opening phrase of Buddhist sutras to show their credibility and authenticity.

Hendrik is a buddhist thus I have heard! =)

Knifefighter

10-21-2004, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by CFT
Whilst you can make some crude models just applying F=ma to the fist, arm, torso, etc. and even include things like body rotation you are still far from the whole picture of the human body, especially the joints and tendons. Not to mention the fact that, after a certain point, as speed increases, muscular force production decreases.

PaulH

10-21-2004, 11:07 AM

From a casual look at SLT, I see 4 ways to generate damage power: Punch, knife Hand; palm strike, elbow strike. The rest are various kinds of controlling and balancing power.

old jong

10-21-2004, 11:09 AM

Bizarre to read about Wingchunners who say that SLT is almost nothing for power development.The form is just a textbook maybe?...;)

Here's a view of mine: SLT in fact is not producing power!...It is just creating appropriate conditions for power delivery.Not the same thing! It trains structure to back up power and relaxation to transfer power to the target.It trains also mental awareness so power can be delivered at the right moment and timing.
Wing Chun power is like an arrow.It is sent his way by an initial push and take it's impact force from the lengh of it's shaft coupled with it's speed. "Joint power" But,this arrow can be stopped and redirected at any moment by the "bowman"!...
The more SLT,the more "Wing Chun Power" (TM) ;) It is not the only way but it is the way Wing Chun does it.

YongChun

10-21-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**Then you probably get that same headache when folks refer to Newtonian physics (f=ma) in an attempt to explain complex biomechanical actions.

Regards,

Terence

On the other hand people get carried away with the complexity thing. The f=ma model to the layman is just saying that someone with a lot of speed and a big arm is going to do a lot of damage.

No one can explain all the fine mechanics. E.g. in playing the piano there are supposedly a few hundred subactions involved and sometimes rates of 20 notes a second are reached. Even if someone could explain that, it would be totally useless except from an academic viewpoint or for the field of robotics do duplicate human activity.

I think people also get carried away with trying to line up some acupuncture point with some other acupuncture point in their training positions. At the level of Tyson, that kind of stuff doesn't matter. I doubt if Gracie has any concern for those things too. Of course I'm no QiGong expert who would know something about that.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by 45degree fist
respectfully:

You still havent answered my question Yellowpikachu.

Wher did you here that?

Originally posted by Ernie

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
an actor who has just passed away----- Rodney DANGERFIELD!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sounds about right

__________________
If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
'THUS I HAVE HEARD' - The traditional opening phrase of Buddhist sutras to show their credibility and authenticity.

Hendrik is a buddhist thus I have heard! =)

Rodney DAngerfield is sure Zen. Correct!

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
On the other hand people get carried away with the complexity thing. The f=ma model to the layman is just..........

Very True. The old theorician get carried away by the classical writing. the modern advocate carried away by what they think is the "truth".

Welll, Kuit is not a theory but a process. similar to a process of making cookies. if tomorrow some people prove that the world is flat. the process of making cookies still works.

Thus, the chinese keep thier kuit secret but reveal all the theories.

As for the 4 type of power in SLT? that is very simple. no physics, no .... there is a process to activate it. as I have heard what the legend said.

we need Mr. Dangerfield to give us a lecture about it, Old Jong! :D

old jong

10-21-2004, 12:35 PM

Here he is!.... (http://www.rodney.com/rodney/home/home.asp)
He told me he wouldn't get any respect by some if he talked about this!...:( ;)

Vajramusti

10-21-2004, 12:39 PM

yellowpikachu--- how many powers? How many bananas ina bunch.?

Taxonomy can be arbitrary- depending on what is regarded asa subset of another.
If by power one means jing/geng--- the slt is the major foundation so it provides the basis for all the geng-s...
taxonomically mire than 4depending on their meanings.

But for building on the foundations- there is more to wing chun

PaulH

10-21-2004, 12:48 PM

"Rodney DAngerfield is sure Zen. "
Thus I have heard that he is the best friend one can ask for! =D

45degree fist

10-21-2004, 01:30 PM

If you take offense to my question yellowpikachu let me know.

I honestly was curious as to where you heard this.

I guess you just dont have a real answer for me.

Fair enough.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by 45degree fist
If you take offense to my question yellowpikachu let me know.

I honestly was curious as to where you heard this.

I guess you just dont have a real answer for me.

Fair enough.

Why everything has to be real?

Why always has to expect others to give what one demands?
Dont you think that is rude?

So what is the REAL reason behind your repeat demanding for the real answer?

45degree fist

10-21-2004, 01:51 PM

dont get all defensive

it was only a question

the reason I was curious

is because many families have different expressions.

I thought maybe you knew something about this the rest of us didnt know.

And I thought keeping everything real is the only way to be.

And I wasnt demanding an answer Im sure everyone here can read I was very respectful as to how I asked you

but if you cant answer it I guess I will leave it alone.
have fun with your thread pikachu

canglong

10-21-2004, 02:04 PM

thus I have heard there are only 3 power types or was it 2. Well anyway I heard something to that effect or maybe it wasn't quite power but more about strengths and how to levearage them or would that be it. Thus I heard it explained things happen when pikachus fly, but don't sweat the small stuff now I am sure I heard it that way.

PaulH

10-21-2004, 02:20 PM

Tony,

Could you explain more on what I have heard on your 3 powers? Gary has many but he mostly talks of 2: Scared power (Geng Jing) and Crazy Power. =)

taltos

10-21-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
So what is the REAL reason behind your repeat demanding for the real answer?

It could be because they actually want to know where you heard it from.

-Levi

anerlich

10-21-2004, 04:23 PM

'THUS I HAVE HEARD' - The traditional opening phrase of Buddhist sutras to show their credibility and authenticity.

Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

So all the Buddhists sutras are hearsay and would be inadmissible in court. Credibility and Authenticity, huh! :p :p :p

OJ, I agree with you about the role of SLT in learning the basic structure for transmission of power.

What I have a problem with is the notion that if you did SLT and no other training, you would be able to hit anything with power, or for that matter, be able to hit a live opponent at all.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by 45degree fist
dont get all defensive

it was only a question....

but if you cant answer it I guess I will leave it alone.
have fun with your thread pikachu

if it is only a question. then why the heck is all this "but if you cant answer it? "

What is your real reason for asking?

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by canglong

Thus I heard it explained things happen when pikachus fly, but don't sweat the small stuff now I am sure I heard it that way.

are you an international police on how people must post according to you in the open forum?

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by taltos
It could be because they actually want to know where you heard it from.

-Levi

what is the real reason behind they actually want to know and keep demanding?

old jong

10-21-2004, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

OJ, I agree with you about the role of SLT in learning the basic structure for transmission of power.

What I have a problem with is the notion that if you did SLT and no other training, you would be able to hit anything with power, or for that matter, be able to hit a live opponent at all.

This is why we must in complement practice our punches,hit the bags,etc...We are not so much different after all! ;) But IMO SLT helps in understanding many things.

canglong

10-21-2004, 04:36 PM

What is your real reason for asking? What is your real reason for not answering.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

What I have a problem with is the notion that if you did SLT and no other training, you would be able to hit anything with power, or for that matter, be able to hit a live opponent at all.

May be your SLT is not others SLT?
May be your way of doing SLT is not others way of doing SLT?
May be......

So those might be the problem or problems not the problem or the problems of SLT? :D

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by canglong
What is your real reason for not answering.

Is there any rule anyone has to answer to you in a public open forum?

canglong

10-21-2004, 04:41 PM

originally posted by big bird
are you an international police on how people must post according to you in the open forum? Is your guilt the reason for this post?

canglong

10-21-2004, 04:46 PM

originally posted by picaboo
Is there any rule anyone has to answer to you in a public open forum?Is this a rhetorical question? ;)

45degree fist

10-21-2004, 04:49 PM

I heard all the ladies wanna piece of me.

Just dont ask me where I heard that.

Ha ha

PaulH

10-21-2004, 04:55 PM

To the Honorable Anerlich,

Thus I have heard from Charlie Chan:

Perfect case, like perfect doughnut, has hole.
Optimist only sees doughnut, pessimist sees hole.
Like all detectives, must consider every possibility.
Very difficult to explain hole in doughnut, but hole always there. =)

anerlich

10-21-2004, 04:55 PM

"May be your SLT is not others SLT?
May be your way of doing SLT is not others way of doing SLT?
May be......"

Maybe on other planets birds fly backwards and upside down, and people toddle about on their heads. Maybe outside the butterscotch dimension you apparently inhabit people are more forthcoming with answers to reasonable questions than you.

I hope my SLT is different from yours. Yours appears to be grounded in something other than reality.

"So those might be the problem or problems not the problem or the problems of SLT? "

I never said SLT had a problem. My position is that SLT trains other aspects of WC than power generation, and is not the Philosopher's Stone or answer to all questions you seem to think it is.

Just because you can't use a paintbrush to drill a hole, it doesn't mean the paintbrush is no good. I'ts just the wrong tool for the job.

My observations of your forum behaviour indicate you're in no position to advise anyone else on their problems. Too much work in your own backyard!

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
To the Honorable Anerlich,

Thus I have heard from Charlie Chan:

Perfect case, like perfect doughnut, has hole.
Optimist only sees doughnut, pessimist sees hole.
Like all detectives, must consider every possibility.
Very difficult to explain hole in doughnut, but hole always there. =)

No Paul,
it is from Rodney Danderfield. The no respect. :D:D

anerlich

10-21-2004, 04:58 PM

Paul,

fair enough, but it's still hearsay.

BTW, I don't mewan to insult Buddhism, only the notion that hearsay is somehow a measure of legitimacy.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
"

I hope my SLT is different from yours. Yours appears to be grounded in something other than reality.

hahahaha. sure, how often you see a ferrare 612 in the street?

Ernie

10-21-2004, 05:02 PM

Maybe on other planets birds fly backwards and upside down, and people toddle about on their heads. Maybe outside the butterscotch dimension you apparently inhabit people are more forthcoming with answers to reasonable questions than you.

anerlich

i'm sending you my doctor bill for making me laugh so hard i think i just re injured my arm
:D

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
"
My observations of your forum behaviour indicate you're in no position to advise anyone else on their problems. Too much work in your own backyard!

May be you are right. May be you have too much work in your own backyard and so keep thinking others are the same with you.

50/50 chance right? :D

But Farreri 612 is not Mazda protege. that is for sure.:D

anerlich

10-21-2004, 05:28 PM

ferrare 612
Farreri 612

What are these? I haven't heard of, let alone seen, either.

May be you have too much work in your own backyard

I live in an apartment. No backyard.

and so keep thinking others are the same with you.

I think if a poll was taken, most would vote that you and I were vastly different.

Ultimatewingchun

10-21-2004, 06:21 PM

Okay...I'm voting in this poll.

Anerlich - very different indeed. Gives straight answers. Doesn't dodge issues.

Can't trust half of what Hendrik says...can't understand the other half.

Perhaps we should do an intervention.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

I think if a poll was taken, most would vote that you and I were vastly different.

Who cares ? either one knows or not, it doesnt matter what others said.

If one own a 612 it doesnt matter what other said.

yellowpikachu

10-21-2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

Can't trust half of what Hendrik says...can't understand the other half.

Sure, sure, why not?
because I dont buy your story and disagree with it. you have all reason to not vote for me.

nothing new, just being react as a human. :D

anerlich

10-21-2004, 08:34 PM

nothing new, just being react as a human.

Good idea. Why don't you try it?

KPM

10-22-2004, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by KPM
I believe it! Some seem to think that you have to be moving your feet to generate power. During SLT they only use the arms. But SLT can bring the whole body into the movements. Power comes not only from the arms, but from the waist/hips and spine. So I would be interested in hearing how you break down and categorize 4 types of power. Care to share? :-)

Keith

---Hendrik! Don't let your threads be taken way off course by responding to the pointless ramblings. Ignore them! Maybe we can bring this back on track if you tell us what your thoughts are. Or at least give some feedback to those of us that are trying to actually make some contributions and learn something. :-)

Keith

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by KPM
---Hendrik! Don't let your threads be taken way off course by responding to the pointless ramblings. Ignore them! Maybe we can bring this back on track if you tell us what your thoughts are. Or at least give some feedback to those of us that are trying to actually make some contributions and learn something. :-)

Keith

Thus, I have heard,

4 type of power generation.

1, linear straight
2, drilling spiral
3, Pendulum swing
4, explosive AKA Keng Geng (shock power)

simple and straight forward right? treasure hunt them in your SLT/SNT (only the one from Red Boat opera artists ancestors )

but one needs to be in non broken Arrow platform, snake body....

Thus I have heard...

BTW. dont cast me in the stone and dont steal the 4 to make his-story, in belongs to all the Red Boat opera artists ancestors, for now on people knows if you steal from my -- thus I have hear (4 words) .. hahahaha

canglong

10-22-2004, 11:32 AM

Mm Yan Chi Dai---The Cantonese expression Mm Yan Chi Dai, translates to "Misleading other people's children." The idiom is a reference to those teachers who claim an expertise in an art that they do not have and waste the time and treasure of others. This could also be said to apply to people that continually ask questions but provide no answers.

Vajramusti

10-22-2004, 12:30 PM

Hi Yellowpikachu---

I am glad that you listed your 4. Some folks are not used to your dialectical approach (involving posing questions) and the sutra way of relaying things- thus I have heard.

But any way- glad that you listed those 4.. aactually it can be said that there are more than 4. The slt provides the seeds of each and further work helps devlop them.

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hi Yellowpikachu---

I am glad that you listed your 4. Some folks are not used to your dialectical approach (involving posing questions) and the sutra way of relaying things- thus I have heard.

But any way- glad that you listed those 4.. aactually it can be said that there are more than 4. The slt provides the seeds of each and further work helps devlop them.

from this 4 the world can be contructed. :D

PaulH

10-22-2004, 01:40 PM

I once see a strange diagram of the Jing path of the human body in a Tai Chi book. The author draws the energy path in spirals covering the entire body. Is this the same as your drilling spiral Jing?

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hi Yellowpikachu---

Some folks are not used to your dialectical approach (involving posing questions) and the sutra way of relaying things- thus I have heard.

Joy,

You know. the dialectical approach and the sutra ways are a two way street way. I think that is a better approach to build a democratic multi-ways communication.

At least it doesnt become those, what one says is GOD's word which cannot question and challenge. or the practice of have to send a trop of gang to hijack others because they speaks or believe or present a different facts.

This world has changed, the old management style will even further evolve to a self-actualization format. we cant stay in Qing Dynasty or still control by church censorship.

canglong

10-22-2004, 04:59 PM

What else does a man have other than his word.

Bye bye hendrik.
I would like to say good bye from this forum to lots of friends here. Thanks for the fun.

I would like to say good bye to Rene, Robert, Andreas, Ernie, Pual, KJ, Matrix, Planet Wing Chun , Joy, David in Sandiago, DZu... BoB, Jim..YYLEE.. Phil... so here on thier names not get drop ...

I would like to say good bye to those who hates me deep in their guts that now you have peace. it is very suffocate to choking each others. Not Zen at all.

Bye bye

peace
hendrik
bye bye hendrik (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32406)

Vajramusti

10-22-2004, 05:11 PM

Paul H- the taiji spiralling is different from the wing chun way
regarding the details of the energy path- different paths up the mountain.

PaulH

10-22-2004, 05:24 PM

Thanks, Joy! =D

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
I once see a strange diagram of the Jing path of the human body in a Tai Chi book. The author draws the energy path in spirals covering the entire body. Is this the same as your drilling spiral Jing?

you means these? hahahaha

http://www.musashi.nl/_private/Oyamafighting.wmv

how about this?

http://www.omogenia.com/~steve/cheng1_ISDN.mov

which type of power generation? hahahaha

lucky if even one can have one of the four.

What do you think? hahahaahaha

Ernie

10-22-2004, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
you mean this? hahahaha. which type of power generation? hahahaha

http://www.musashi.nl/_private/Oyamafighting.wmv

how about this?

http://www.omogenia.com/~steve/cheng1_ISDN.mov

and you can get many more just like that here http://www.finalstop.com/magic/

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
and you can get many more just like that here http://www.finalstop.com/magic/

Ernie,

Great store for saseme street show!

Visit this too

http://totallytots.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=SesameStreet_ErniesJourney.html

great for you! :D

Ernie

10-22-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ernie,

Great store.
Visit this too

http://totallytots.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=SesameStreet_ErniesJourney.html

http://www.mightycoach.com/articles/specialeffects/

got this one for you bro for the modern fake martial artist it's a must have :D

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
http://www.mightycoach.com/articles/specialeffects/

got this one for you bro for the modern fake martial artist it's a must have :D

Opps, I never recall to see your name line up with Mas Oyama or Chen Man Ching yet. So, keep trying. good try. :D

Ernie

10-22-2004, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Opps, I never recall to see your name line up with Mas Oyama or Chen Man Ching yet. So, keep trying. good try. :D

trust me i wouldn't want to be on that list :D

the fat guy with the swinging arms looked drunk
and the tai chi is so fake it does't even deserve a comment

people love fairy tales ;) http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame22.html

yellowpikachu

10-22-2004, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
trust me i wouldn't want to be on that list :D

the fat guy with the swinging arms looked drunk
and the tai chi is so fake it does't even deserve a comment

people love fairy tales ;)

sure sure,

Ernie is the best, real, not fake , greatest, invincible, migty,.......ect ect bla bla bla ..top fighter of the world. :D

Ernie

10-22-2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
sure sure,

Ernie is the best, real, not fake , greatest, invincible, migty,.......ect ect bla bla bla ..top fighter of the world. :D

yep see now you get i passed the real test http://quizilla.com/users/Shaolinmonkey/quizzes/Could%20You%20Be%20A%20Kung%20Fu%20Master%3F/

your dirty scrolls and silly stories are nothing compared to that :D

but really bro those clips looked very fake , no body mechanics at all and alot of acting on the part of the student

about as believable as these combat ki nut bags i have a video it's the funniest thing in the world http://www.jukokai.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album12&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

Ernie

10-22-2004, 06:54 PM

hey i got an idea send those clips here http://www.sonypictures.com/tv/shows/ripleys/database/ep_108a.html

it will fit right in :D

ok i'm done being God ha ha ha

thus it is said

thus it is wriiten

so thus it must be true [ insert deep echo here ]

KPM

10-23-2004, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Thus, I have heard, 4 type of power generation.
1, linear straight
2, drilling spiral
3, Pendulum swing
4, explosive AKA Keng Geng (shock power)

simple and straight forward right? treasure hunt them in your SLT/SNT (only the one from Red Boat opera artists ancestors )

---Thanks Hendrick! I will give those some thought and investigation. KPM

but one needs to be in non broken Arrow platform, snake body....

---Working on that. :-) KPM

BTW. dont cast me in the stone and dont steal the 4 to make his-story, in belongs to all the Red Boat opera artists ancestors, for now on people knows if you steal from my -- thus I have hear (4 words) .. hahahaha

---There won't be any "his-tory" coming from me! Thanks again! Of course I'm all ears (eyes?) if you care to elaborate on your 4!

Keith

yellowpikachu

10-24-2004, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by KPM

if you care to elaborate on your 4!

Since it is
Thus, I have heard.

I didnt heard that far into the process of activation yet. :D

canglong

10-25-2004, 12:45 AM

goodbye yellowpikachu,

Since
thus I heard you were leaving.
bye bye birdie (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32406)

t_niehoff

10-25-2004, 06:27 AM

"Thus, I have heard" is pure hearsay -- someone told me this or that. OK, but does that make it true or useful? Does that mean it "works", that the original speaker could make it "work", or that even if they could, that it "works" equally well for you? This is the mantra for theoreticians -- I've been told to do such and such so that is "the way." Maybe you've heard it, that doesn't make it true. How do we know?

Yip Man said "Go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you." Do we think he meant that he was possibly *intentionally* tricking us? No, he was saying that we need to test everything to avoid being *unintentionally deceived* -- so that all our information becomes knowledge (we know it is true, not believe it is true). In other words, we don't accept something because of "thus, I have heard" but because our testing produces results for us. We don't rely on "thus, I have heard".

So, instead of "thus, I have heard" let's hear more "this works because I've tested it"; talk about evidence/results instead of possible theory. When I hear reliance on "thus, I have heard" I know it means that it hasn't been tested -- because if it had, we'd hear about that instead.

Regards,

Terence

Jim Roselando

10-25-2004, 07:39 AM

Terence,

"Thus, I have heard" is pure hearsay -- someone told me this or that. OK, but does that make it true or useful? Does that mean it "works", that the original speaker could make it "work", or that even if they could, that it "works" equally well for you? This is the mantra for theoreticians -- I've been told to do such and such so that is "the way." Maybe you've heard it, that doesn't make it true. How do we know?

Thus I have heard is Hendrik's way of starting a thread about a topic or piece of information related to WC as he was taught it. So, while you seem to find it not worthy of discussion please allow those who wish to discuss it to discuss it! This particaular thread has "6" pages with people sharing and discussing. Please respect others desire to discuss WC topics on a WC forum. JR

Yip Man said "Go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you." Do we think he meant that he was possibly *intentionally* tricking us? No, he was saying that we need to test everything to avoid being *unintentionally deceived* -- so that all our information becomes knowledge (we know it is true, not believe it is true). In other words, we don't accept something because of "thus, I have heard" but because our testing produces results for us. We don't rely on "thus, I have heard".

Yip Man said that but YM also taught his pupils his WCK knowledge. So, anyone who trained with YM or his pupils can easily start a thread with:

Thus I have heard according to YM!

Now, the going out and testing it still fits in. It fits for YM and it fits for Hendrik, you and everyeone. You learn something and you can test it to see if it works. This discussion is about 4 powers. Feel free to discuss it or not. JR

So, instead of "thus, I have heard" let's hear more "this works because I've tested it"; talk about evidence/results instead of possible theory. When I hear reliance on "thus, I have heard" I know it means that it hasn't been tested -- because if it had, we'd hear about that instead.

So far all you have done is high-jacked numerous threads with the exact same line. Why not respect the desire for people to discuss different topics that they wish. I know what Hendrik writes is a sensative issue for you since its kind of "classic" guidelines of the art but it good stuff and a lot of us really enjoy it. Since you have tested what you were taught you can easily jump in with some good information based on your experience to add to the topics but if you just repeat the same mantra it really doesn't add anything to any of these topics. Years ago you discussed lots of different WC topics and your posts were very good. You talked about Kuen Kuit and other stuff on a regular basis. JR

I do appreciate your desire to discuss things in a functional/realistic way now a days but so far all you have done is throw the line out but add/bring none of that experience to the table with info. we can all chat about or learn from. JR

Just my .02!

Regards,

PaulH

10-25-2004, 08:12 AM

Hendrik,

What kind of Jing did Chen do in the video? Is that Keng Geng? Thanks!

Vajramusti

10-25-2004, 09:19 AM

Paul H- Fajing.

Chen Man Ching is NOT my favorite taichi person.

Chen Xiao Wang's fajing is much more powerful ( and it is not hearsay).

The four jings listed by yellowpikachu is a good start- but there are other jings.

Taxonomy is tricky business.

PaulH

10-25-2004, 09:24 AM

Joy,

How would you classify the Jing in WCK then? Thanks!

t_niehoff

10-25-2004, 09:39 AM

Jim,

The number of people involved in a thread and length of a discussion thread doesn't make a topic useful or worthwhile (folks even discuss whether WCK can be practiced in high-heeled shoes!). I have no problem with anyone sharing info or ideas but always question whether it is *useful* or not.

Remember when several of Yip Man's students went to him with the question about how to do a tan sao "correctly" and each did the tan sao differently? Yip told each of them they were "correct." So now, each gets on the KFO forum and says "Thus I have heard my way of doing tan sao is correct." BFD. Is Hendrik "correct" that there are 4 powers? Sure, just like everyone else with a different POV is "correct".

Theoretically and intellectually there are many different ways to categorize the same things. How about this: in my view WCK has only one core power and all WCK powers (the 4 Hendrik mentions, for example, and any other gings) stem from that. Or, how about there are only 4 gates ("no, 6!", "no, 9!, "no, 2", "no, none!"). Or, there are 5 ranges ("no, 4!", "no, 3!", "no, 1!", "no, range isn't important"). Now, which is true or not? The "truth" of it depends not on theory (all theories are equal) but rather whether that way of looking at it helps me (i.e., is useful) or not. And it can help me but may not help you. Whether it is useful is determined and can only be determined from application (seeing the results). I don't mind folks sharing these differing ways of looking at things **provided** it is not merely regurgitation of something they've heard (they could have heard compete, utter nonsense too) -- that instead they are sharing a way of looking at something that has proved useful to them (by producing results).

For example, go to a boxing forum -- does anyone say "thus I have heard this is how to properly throw a rear cross?" No. But they'll discuss how to throw a rear cross from their personal experience of throwing rear crosses and evaluating the results (and they won't all agree on every detail). "Thus I have heard" is for the folks that don't have that experience. And IMO folks should get in the ring and try throwing rear crosses and evaluating their results *before* they "share" ideas on how to do it (regardless of where that idea came from). A bunch of people who've never boxed sharing ideas on how to throw a rear cross won't provide particularly useful information.

Regards,

Terence

PaulH

10-25-2004, 09:47 AM

Terence,

Is your WC core power similar to boxing core power or is it different in what ways? Or do you just look at it as strictly human body mechanics? Thanks!

t_niehoff

10-25-2004, 10:03 AM

Paul,

WCK's method (approach to fighting) is different from boxing's method, so the core power is different in kind. All power is produced from some type of body mechanics (unless you believe in magic). Thus, WCK's body mechanics are different than boxing's.

Regards,

Terence

PaulH

10-25-2004, 10:06 AM

Thus I have heard! Thanks, Terence! =D

Vajramusti

10-25-2004, 10:10 AM

Paul H.---
Leaving out "external" powers beyond your control- a car behind hits your car and you hit the car in front-

the jings that come from you are many or one. You can use your stored energy (one) ina variety of ways(many)... they are numerous ...ergo---
they can vary depending on definitions...
there are sufficient differences among the following-

whipping, sinking, sticking, long bridge, taking over, forward, short, listening, drilling,direct, indirect, guiding, connecting, chasing, bouncing, jerking, elastic....more

Classification involves labelling empirical things. Emprically there are varying degrees, directions, functions and combinations of geng-s...

what sustained wing chun training teaches is using the right amount and kind of power for each occasion....fat do... the right amount at the right time. The wing chun storehouse has many jings.

The above list of jings--- hey I have felt and used them at one time or another- not just heard. All theories are not coequal- some are inherently bad. Of course theories have to be tested.
But without being there I can also accept a competent scientist's view on what is there on the dark side of the moon. If we only depended on our experience- we would be like the chimps smashing things in the start up section of 2001 Space Odyssey.
Concepts and experience are both necessary and they reinforce each other. Dialectics.

t_niehoff

10-25-2004, 10:10 AM

No, Paul, thus I *know* from experience -- I have boxed and have fought with WCK and I know the difference. But my point is, that won't help you understand it, do it, whatever. Just like Yip telling you your tan is correct.

Regards,

Terence

PaulH

10-25-2004, 10:16 AM

I couldn't resist my humor on your "thus". Thus it comes out, Terence! I won't argue against experience for sure. =)

P.S. Your latest post is quite clear, Joy. I take it Hendrik's view of the WC engine as that capable of generating those 4 of mentioned Jing.

yellowpikachu

10-25-2004, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

What kind of Jing did Chen do in the video? Is that Keng Geng? Thanks!

Thus, I have Seen.:D ( a vision way of Thus, I have heard)

chen is using the " VWHW cross bow fast acceleration power generator " which is produced by the GENERAL MOTOR CHINA, opps, GENERAL INTERNAL CHINESE POWER GENERATION INC. to power his movement :D

as for what kind of Jing. can be Pa'ng. but check with the TaiJi Guys.

yellowpikachu

10-25-2004, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by PaulH

I take it Hendrik's view of the WC engine as that capable of generating those 4 of mentioned Jing.

Pual,

Thus, I have read the Operating Manual.

you need to buy that " VWHW cross bow fast acceleration power generator " from the GENERAL INTERNAL CHINESE POWER GENERATION INC either via the Red Boat Opera Dealer or other dealer close to you. :D

Remember: ask for

http://www.citylumber.com/jack_hammer.htm

www.archerusa.com/product_dexpan_En1.html

and ofcorse, this type of Generator only mount well to the Full Arrow rack/structure.

Thus, I have read, (but those ancient chinese has tested it for hundreds of years and always work great. ) :D

Call Roney Dangerfield for seminal! Opps, I keep forgot, he passed away afew days ago. too late.

Jim Roselando

10-26-2004, 07:19 AM

Hiya Terence,

The number of people involved in a thread and length of a discussion thread doesn't make a topic useful or worthwhile (folks even discuss whether WCK can be practiced in high-heeled shoes!).

Good point. Your right. JR

I have no problem with anyone sharing info or ideas but always question whether it is *useful* or not.

This is good to but we should add in the experience (those in the conversation) using it to add more to the thread if you know what i mean? We can talk about the topic and also talk about how we used it against blah blah to add to that if someone wants to question it or not. JR

Remember when several of Yip Man's students went to him with the question about how to do a tan sao "correctly" and each did the tan sao differently? Yip told each of them they were "correct."

Well, I have mixed feelings about that kind of answer but perhaps he gave them the core and let them figure it out for themselves. Different sifu's give different answers, some give the same, and sometimes they just dont want to be bothered. JR

So now, each gets on the KFO forum and says "Thus I have heard my way of doing tan sao is correct." BFD. Is Hendrik "correct" that there are 4 powers? Sure, just like everyone else with a different POV is "correct".

Everyone may have a point of something to learn from each other. People explain things differently but WC was already defined a long time ago. JR

Theoretically and intellectually there are many different ways to categorize the same things. How about this: in my view WCK has only one core power and all WCK powers (the 4 Hendrik mentions, for example, and any other gings) stem from that. Or, how about there are only 4 gates ("no, 6!", "no, 9!, "no, 2", "no, none!"). Or, there are 5 ranges ("no, 4!", "no, 3!", "no, 1!", "no, range isn't important"). Now, which is true or not? The "truth" of it depends not on theory (all theories are equal) but rather whether that way of looking at it helps me (i.e., is useful) or not. And it can help me but may not help you.

A lot of theory may be saying the same thing and if it helps someone understand something better than more power to you but a lot of all the different thoeries and ways of explaining things are modern (which is ok) but we have to keep in mind WC was already built and defined a long time ago. So, its good for all of us to discuss it and learn from each other. You make the perfect example: In My View etc. etc.. This is how you look at it based on how you were taught it and can use it. So, Hendrik's Localization Evolution can benefit all of us and all of us can learn and share in these threads. JR

Whether it is useful is determined and can only be determined from application (seeing the results). I don't mind folks sharing these differing ways of looking at things **provided** it is not merely regurgitation of something they've heard (they could have heard compete, utter nonsense too) -- that instead they are sharing a way of looking at something that has proved useful to them (by producing results).

Ok. So, this is the best way for you to add to the conversation with; Based on my experience against etc.etc. I found???? But! Does this mean every conversation has to have that? What if someone asks: Can someone explain Loi Lau? So, do the people participating on the thread explain the idea and the usage based on their experience everytime or do they talk about what they want? It all depends on what people want to chat about. And! You are free to jump in with your views based on your experience but it does not help to not add to it. JR

For example, go to a boxing forum -- does anyone say "thus I have heard this is how to properly throw a rear cross?" No. But they'll discuss how to throw a rear cross from their personal experience of throwing rear crosses and evaluating the results (and they won't all agree on every detail).

I can disagree a bit with this. Why? Years ago I did a bit of some Olympic style boxing with a local trainer. The guy taught us to do blah blah because of blah blah. Now, if I go to a Boxing forum and discuss the rear cross with a guy from Haglers gym we can indeed talk about the different principles behind it and reason for doing it the way we were shown. Both have been used in the ring and both can learn from each other. JR

"Thus I have heard" is for the folks that don't have that experience. And IMO folks should get in the ring and try throwing rear crosses and evaluating their results *before* they "share" ideas on how to do it (regardless of where that idea came from). A bunch of people who've never boxed sharing ideas on how to throw a rear cross won't provide particularly useful information.

Thus I have heard is a trade mark HS thread starter. He holds the rights to it! hehe I believe Rene mentioned on this board that HS did Kyokoshin fighting and other stuff so how do you know who has what experience and who doesn't unless you ask or share your own experience to add to the topic?

In all honesty I like that you add a realistic way to the topics but just repeating Fighting, Swimming, etc. and other stuff like that is not bringing anything to the thread. Share your experience and I am sure others will. Help the topics grow.

Back to lurk mode!

hehe

Regards,

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando

The number of people involved in a thread and length of a discussion thread doesn't make a topic useful or worthwhile (folks even discuss whether WCK can be practiced in high-heeled shoes!).

Good point. Your right. JR

I have no problem with anyone sharing info or ideas but always question whether it is *useful* or not.

This is good to but we should add in the experience (those in the conversation) using it to add more to the thread if you know what i mean? We can talk about the topic and also talk about how we used it against blah blah to add to that if someone wants to question it or not. JR

So now, each gets on the KFO forum and says "Thus I have heard my way of doing tan sao is correct." BFD. Is Hendrik "correct" that there are 4 powers? Sure, just like everyone else with a different POV is "correct".

Everyone may have a point of something to learn from each other. People explain things differently but WC was already defined a long time ago. JR

1, Thus, I have heard, why the pokemon buddha asked his students to use -- Thus, I have heard phrase when start to present the buddha's teaching.

That is because human are normally operate in the lower 3 chakras. Operate in the realm/energy/mind or Survival, desire, and identify oneself as the Judger/Righteous/reference of the Universe.

Now, one is going to look at one's idea, one's .... bla bla bla is the greatest truth and judge others. Disregard of whether is it any facts to support it or not.

Then, if meet a challenge of one's judgement, then one drop into the 2nd chakra where that desire of wanting to win to fight comes in. Everything is personal. If both parties are dropping to this level of energy type. Then, the desire of wanting to win with all cost and all heat is on.

Then, if a side is droping his/her energy further, that get to the survival realm, where one feels one has to ELIMINATE others to make others VANISHED is appropriate because one cannot accept to survive with the others. It is a sacret war for survival.

So, the pokemon buddha asked his student to use Thus, I have heard, that way, his student is not stating or addressing what is the Truth, what is god said, There are room to grow, there are room to improve. and even for those who dont like it will not get to the level of Survival realm because the most those who dont like it will call it a BS. Thus, I have heard is a way to present without saying. ----- you stupid moron, dont you see this and this and this happen. you want a prove? sure why not? it works. --- and starts all wars for EGO. no one will learn if one posting that way.

2, karate is Wing Chun's competitor, TaiJi is Wing Chun's compertitor. Above, there are two clips of the very top karate artist and Taiji artist showing thier power generation.
We are lucky to be able to see it. To see how our competitiors' action. How many Oyama in this world? how many Chen in this world?
So, instead of blashing at those or raising the mind of judging them.... bla bla bla...etc. Look at them, and look hard if one can identify how they do it? hundred or even decades ago will the master let thier student video tape them even taking pictures on thier action? NO, because they dont want the secret out. It is great to keep the students or others keep fantasying into the realm of illusion. So, why cant one viewing this clips with apprecaition to see the top people in action?

one can be greater then OYama or Chen Man Ching, that is great. But, in this forum, anyone is publicly rank as good as Oyama? if not, then study, learn. Talk is cheap. ego is illusively big.
So, how is Oyama and Chen generate their power? I am not talking about what kind of punch. I am talking about HOW THEY GENERATE THIER POWER. punch is just a drill bit. what the QUESTION is about HOW THE POWER is GENERATED. Can we identify them? can we even starts to analyze them? Do our training has something similar or parr with these people? if not we are in DEEEP HOLE. doesnt matter who's comment about THUS I have heard. since is THUS I HAVE HEARD is just wishfull thinking for some. Then, NOW ONE has seen is REAL.

To be able to do what oyama do one needs the pendulum swing power generation plus some other components.
To be able to do what Chen do, one needs to .....

So, is that usefull that SLT has the four key type tool to help one to be able to see through and analyze what is the top word martial artists doing? Stop fantasy. one has to know what type of power others is using, without knowing that power generator, one will only be able to stop the power generator with Brute force and often that doesnt work. Because, there always a bigger better physical shape person. The game is not overpower with bigger better physical. Isnt it nice that what the SLT teaching make able for one to even analyze Oyama's action?

if you dont like the baisc 4 type catagory THUS, I HAVE HEARD, come up with your own. everything is subject to LOCALIZATION EVOLUTION grow. Wing Chun is not a DEAD art, thus grow and improvement is legitimate. The question has to ask is, do one has most of the basic building blocks cover? Do one has the process of generating them?

Just some blue sky opinion. and I can be wrong and dead wrong.:D

t_niehoff

10-26-2004, 08:44 AM

Hendrik wrote: "I have read the Operating Manual."

**This is the problem -- it sounds definative when you say, "the manuel says . . . " but in reality, things are not so clear. For one thing, "the manual" (forms and kuit) is written in such a way as to permit all kinds of interpretations, some very much at odds with others. For another, the context in "the manuel" is rarely clear. For example, "liu loa, hoi soong, lut sao, jik chung" can be interpreted in numerous ways and the context of "the instruction" is unclear. You may have a firm grasp of it's underlying idea, or have a completely inaccurate idea -- but at least we know that *if you can make it work* there is something to your view. Instead of looking at these things as declarative statements, I submit they are better viewed as points of inquiry. So our ancestors gave us "liu lao, hoi soong, lut sao, jik chung" not as a commandment (do must do it like this) but rather as a point to investigate, to experiment with, to find for ourselves the meaning with the objective being to help us become better fighters. Theoretical arguments won't prove it one way or another. No one can tell you what the sound of one hand clapping is -- the question is just designed to get you "looking" in a certain direction.

Regards,

Terence

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hendrik wrote: "I have read the Operating Manual."

**This is the problem -- it sounds definative when you say, "the manuel says . . . " but in reality, things are not so clear.

There is less problem if one doesnt expect everyone in the world to post according to the reference one set behave according to one's standard. What cannot be observe? what cannot be investigate?

Will anyone take the following post SERIOUSLY to examine the problem with all the Jackhammer Ad there? Even I dont take it serious. hahaha.

Relax having some fun, drink a cup of tea and discuss and share and chat.

BTW, IMHO, lots of things are clear but one has to understand the variation of condition, situation.....
as for the term "interpretation" an honest word is the old chinese when they wrote something they do define thier definition clearly. Take a look at the Chen taijin classic or the Emei 12 Zhuang classic or even Sun Tzu's art of war. things are well define for the technical.

Interpretation has been used as a word of giving face or down grade others. how many can take it if we start to tear down everything from the his-story, the practice with what the definition of the ancient ancestors? and how many can have an open mind to embrace others view which stick with proper definition but being creative?

just some opinions, and I can be dead wrong.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Thus, I have read the Operating Manual.

you need to buy that " VWHW cross bow fast acceleration power generator " from the GENERAL INTERNAL CHINESE POWER GENERATION INC either via the Red Boat Opera Dealer or other dealer close to you.

Remember: ask for

http://www.citylumber.com/jack_hammer.htm

www.archerusa.com/product_dexpan_En1.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie

10-26-2004, 08:58 AM

Hendrik

Based on the clips I see no functional power the ability to hit some while in motion that is also in motion trying to hit you
The tied up bull horn breaker guy clip didn’t show this , his student had very poor body mechanic and so did the master O
Most Karate based systems have poor stiff motion and terrible distance and foot work

The tai chi demo has no worth at all , in looking for functional combative power

If it was real [ in the butterscotch universe ] and I highly doubt it required to many pre requisites , to set up posture and position

So why would be study non functional power ?

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Hendrik

Based on the clips I see no functional power the ability to hit some while in motion that is also in motion trying to hit you
The tied up bull horn breaker guy clip didn’t show this , his student had very poor body mechanic and so did the master O
Most Karate based systems have poor stiff motion and terrible distance and foot work

The tai chi demo has no worth at all , in looking for functional combative power

If it was real [ in the butterscotch universe ] and I highly doubt it required to many pre requisites , to set up posture and position

So why would be study non functional power ?

Ernie,

Your view is totally respected. However, the world is not based on your view or my view.

people can critic the heck out of Bill Gate. But, he made it there and others dont or even come close. be able to Observe Bill Gate decision making in business might make sense or might not make sense at all, according to my view.

if you dont think Oyama and Chen knows what they are doing. Then, why not post a clip on those who think they know what they are doing or usefull.

But, I must also warn you. posting is a two way street. you also must take the critic with ease, when others might --with details analyzed and tear down what they think is not an art but brute force....etc about your clips.

t_niehoff

10-26-2004, 09:12 AM

JR wrote:

Everyone may have a point of something to learn from each other. People explain things differently but WC was already defined a long time ago. JR

**I think phrases like "WC was already defined" may reflect a way of thinking about fighting methods, including WCK, that isn't accurate. I hope you're not suggesting that there is some "definition" that we can look to decide if something is WCK, or good WCK, or not. Sure, we can say that WCK is a southern chinese martial art, that it descends from the Red Boats, that it has certain basic characteristics, a certain approach toward fighting, etc. (just as we can say the same sort of things about any fighting method) but to go beyond that I think becomes "WCK fascism" (it is 'impure' unless it matches *my* criteria). Many fighting methods, boxing, JJ, muay thai, etc. came into being "a long time ago" but as fighting methods, they continued to grow and continue to grow today. What permits that growth, and their continued success in producing good fighters, is that their practitioners are not bound by "strict definitions" of what *was* at some point considered proper; instead they focus on increasing their performance level. So whether something is "proper" doesn't stem from the fact that it sticks with tradition or dogma or someone's definition but from the fact that it works well. A good jab is one that is effective, a good WCK punch is one that is effective.

Regards,

Terence

t_niehoff

10-26-2004, 09:18 AM

Hendrik wrote:

"Your view is totally respected. However, the world is not based on your view or my view. . . ."

**Why rely on "views" -- we can put these things to the test and see whether or not they work well. Let's rely on evidence instead of belief.

Regards,

Terence

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Hendrik wrote:

"Your view is totally respected. However, the world is not based on your view or my view. . . ."

**Why rely on "views" -- we can put these things to the test and see whether or not they work well. Let's rely on evidence instead of belief.

Regards,

Terence

Sure,

and who in this forum did better then Mas Oyama? Test more then Mas Oyama in real fight and producing world class fighters?

has Wing Chun as a whole in past few decades produce a "Mas Oyama " who tested his art with different style in the world and produce stable result yet? how many generation of fighters Oyama has produced and still participate in today's arena such as K1?

Ernie

10-26-2004, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ernie,

Your view is totally respected. However, the world is not based on your view or my view.

people can critic the heck out of Bill Gate. But, he made it there and others dont or even come close. be able to Observe Bill Gate decision making in business might make sense or might not make sense at all, according to my view.

if you dont think Oyama and Chen knows what they are doing. Then, why not post a clip on those who think they know what they are doing or usefull.

But, I must also warn you. posting is a two way street. you also must take the critic with ease, when others might --with details analyzed and tear down what they think is not an art but brute force....etc about your clips.

functional power
simple go check out the savate clip , sure it's ring but they have the ability to hit on the fly

they kick with a small point and release power , they have balance

any boxer with skill calm clean power good body mechanics

bruce had funcional power

Emin,Wong,William,Gary, etc have functional power

all slightly different but functional

people have been breaking bricks and showing forms of non functional demo power forever

i would rather study living people with functional power

why study a trick

i really don't see the logic

Ernie

10-26-2004, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Sure,

and who in this forum did better then Mas Oyama? Test more then Mas Oyama in real fight and producing world class fighters?

Hendrik i got respect for anyone that gets in there and puts it on the line

but that was a different time fighters didn't have the skill they do now .
those guys had no mobility they were face to face nose to nose
to rigid and fixed

things change bro

the greatest sling shot is no match for a machine gun

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
functional power
simple go check out the savate clip , sure it's ring but they have the ability to hit on the fly

they kick with a small point and release power , they have balance

any boxer with skill calm clean power good body mechanics

bruce had funcional power

Emin,Wong,William,Gary, etc have functional power

all slightly different but functional

people have been breaking bricks and showing forms of non functional demo power forever

i would rather study living people with functional power

why study a trick

i really don't see the logic

Ernie,

You view is respected.

but my view is biased on world match such as K1 and Kyokushin open. ....ect. and a stable process such as Oyama can produce fighters for generations which compete in world class match.

So, i have a different view compare with you.

Ernie

10-26-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ernie,

You view is respected.

but my view is biased on world match such as K1 and Kyokushin open. ....ect. and a stable process such as Oyama can produce fighters for generations which compete in world class match.

So, i have a different view compare with you.

http://www.afsacademy.com/video/SavateHighlightsV1.wmv

so this must be chi sau then right

the O that is in the clip you showed would never survive in this more modern enviroment

what year are you in

and i work with guys prepping for K1 now i think i'm a little closer to what's going on today

i know i'm not on there level but i train with them and study and feel there power , look at the way they develop it and how hard they condition there bodies and minds

so what view point are you comeing from ?

training approaches have changed the level of skill has improved
this is just life not you right or me right
but reality

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
http://www.afsacademy.com/video/SavateHighlightsV1.wmv

so this must be chi sau then right

the O that is in the clip you showed would never survive in this more modern enviroment

what year are you in

and i work with guys prepping for K1 now i think i'm a little closer to what's going on today

i know i'm not on there level but i train with them and study and feel there power , look at the way they develop it and how hard they condition there bodies and minds

so what view point are you comeing from ?

training approaches have changed the level of skill has improved
this is just life not you right or me right
but reality

my biased view points is very simple.

1, one must know the components of the power generation and has to be able to master the process to a certain level, to be able to attain a more stable predictive outcome or even passing the "technology" or the art to next generation.

2, There are people who train (any arts) for decades and have no idea on the components of the power generation. But rely on physical and certain move that others dont know at a period of time, but when the physical is aging and thier "secret" trick move known. They left with nothing. but a glory passed.

3, There are people who are born with the ability such as Bill Gate or Bruce Lee. Those are respectable. people in such class can even make the wrong a great right, not twisting the facts but beable to use the wrong in a correct situation when needed to solve problem.

But, the general public doesnt benifit from praise or praying or imitate these people. because they are from different catagory of BORN ability. It is more fruitfull for one to learn the basic components of the power generation then to imitate, to prase, to be with these people or living under thier shadow.

4, any style or people who can continously produce generation over generation of fighter surely knows something. and often this something is some simple things or steps that most people overlook and miss them.

PS.

I am not using you as a point of discussion because you have a right to believe and think your way. that is indeed respected.

I seperate you Ernie with discussion about View. Ernie always can change his view. Ernie is not his view. Ernie is free to have as much view as possible and change them as needed. Thus, Ernie is always respected and honor. one can disagree with Ernie's view but that is just View similar to I can have a wacko view.but that is just view.

As for the clips, an honest comment is that,

1, the range of the kicker is not close enough to make real damage or knock out.
2, the timing/momentum flow of the kicker is not chain reaction enough to use the on going momentum to not give others a chance or seal of others activity.
3, they have not proceed on taking other's jung.

This is based on my very bias and limited view with Thai boxers and Kyokushin open. and Thus I have heard from the old Wing Chuner's --- this type of attack doesnt "take the jung out of others" .

I dont see these type of skill in the clip higher or more advance then my senior in Kyokushin open in Japan, Mauy thai in Thailand, or Wing Chun in Penang malaysia at the 70's.

And as I said, it is just my bias view or even wacko.

The clip of Oyama consist of close range mometum utilization which was used in various art such as CLF or even Wing Chun.

The Clip of Chen consist of fundamental components of all Chinese martial art fajing be it Yee Chuan, Taiji, BaJi... list goes continous on.

That is reality for me based on my limited experience might not be yours. and this view can be totally wacko.

Ernie

10-26-2004, 10:43 AM

hendrik-1, one must know the components of the power generation and has to be able to master the process to a certain level, to be able to attain a more stable predictive outcome or even passing the "technology" or the art to next generation.

---- i agree and this is the point of our conversation
you comment on the range of the savate guys as to far great damage , yet you have not investigated or experienced them first hand i have and dropping you at long range is there specialty
they use a differnt type of ernegy release pin point , were a thai hits like a bat , the savate hits like the tip of the bat poking in [ similar to wing chun but very different body mechanic ] when you get hit by a savate kick it goes in you , street savate targets ''soft targets ] groin kidneys ,solarplex , liver and so on , sport savate is well --- for sport
but they do very very well beating thai guys do some research and you will see , they also have better hands

is savate better then thai or tahi better then savate no , just differnt use of range , weapon and power development

-- see were back to the study of power development :D

master O fights with his hands down and head exposed he is not mobile more the one hit one kill style so they gamble on taking punishment to get there shot in , not very smart , but effective , if your tough --- my POV

the tai chi guy ---again to me non functional cool for a that's incredible trick but not much in the way of a street fight again my POV

now your point about bruce is only half true yep he was not human :D but he worked hard and had a hungry mind , could look beyond tradition and did the research on himself

this formula will work for anyone , :cool:

as for me and you no worries were talking about power

you are looking at it from a traditonal development platform
and me well from a functional platform

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 02:31 PM

you comment on the range of the savate guys as to far great damage , yet you have not investigated or experienced them first hand i have and dropping you at long range is there specialty ----- Ernie

I was about a few centimeters away being knockout by a kyokushin Jumping ax kick target toward my neck/shoulder area when it was newly introduce to Kyokushin. I have never seen how it was exercute. and that day, I meet this 2nd degree black blet from other kyokushin dojo which was trained by the senoir japanese karateka. I am luckily or i follow the basic rule of go with the flow.

IMHO, doest it matter long or short range. every weapon has its range. And, I have no doubt there are great artists out there who is great at long range stuffs such as a jumping ax kick. be it TKD or Savate.

So, is a jumping ax kick a long range or a short range kick? Is it matter? or what matter most is one having a training to develop a sense of where to flow to avoid to take the full deep penetration strike? Because there will be lots and lots of strike one has never seen which one has to face. Thus, my comment about the clip, is nothing to do about Savate or TKD or.... It is about range. The sense of dynamic range (not 1 step away...bla bla bla...etc but how all the flow goes) for attack and counter.

let's leave those you or me experience the first hand stuffs out. those are about ego if it is not talking about ZEN SATORI which I dont think we are talking about. :D

master O fights with his hands down and head exposed he is not mobile more the one hit one kill style so they gamble on taking punishment to get there shot in , not very smart , but effective , if your tough --- my POV ------- Ernie

IMHO,
I see Oyama is using Yee Chuan's natural pendulum way of power generation (Oyama did went and study Yee Chuan. ) and every step he did Poh Jong. destroy the center.

It doesnt have to be that tough if one already handling the Poh Jung. because poh jong damage the dynamic structure directly. similar to facing a samurai sword, either who get who, what to block or cut down the damage? that itself is a powerfull will momentum. that is the Oyama Zen stuffs comming into play. which is not a topic for here. but things integrate up.

as for risk or not Oyama choose to fight in a momentum realm, the concern is different then the limbs realm. certainly, if one is not capable to make use of the optimum dynamic momentum of the both party, one can be knocked out flat by the opponent. The Chinese has a saying " when one is advance in art, one's gut is even large".
I can be wrong and way off in my opinion. so, dont follow my view.

the tai chi guy ---again to me non functional cool for a that's incredible trick but not much in the way of a street fight again my POV -------Ernie

Chen is showing a fast accerelate power generation handling. again, that is also a momentum domain stuffs. it is not about a sport car in the race tract. it is about how many second the race car can be accerelate which is important. IMHO.

you are looking at it from a traditonal development platform
and me well from a functional platform ------Ernie

Actually, no, I am not looking at single things in a traditional or functional....
I am looking at it in a momentum realm, what is the components, how is it works, how many types are there........

As the topic of this post brought up, types of power generation.

Just some opinions and I can be wrong and way off in my opinion.

Ernie

10-26-2004, 03:05 PM

Hendrik-let's leave those you or me experience the first hand stuffs. out. those are about ego. if it is not talking about ZEN SATORI which I dont think we are talking about

cool ,
Power generation and body mechanics are passion of mine
The study of functional power has been journey for me , so the subject honestly intrigues me , I don’t follow your [ Chinese terms and sayings ] so in some ways we might be on the same page and not even know it , but I have gone through many methods of training power from many countries and there is more alike then different , since the engine is still the body and mind ,

But looking at master O I see sloppy non functional power , let me explain as to not be disrespectful , with all power [ stable , momentum , whipping , explosive and so on ] there has to be a functional targeting system and protective properties [ people move and hit back ] bricks , boards and animals do not
So I look to see the targeting system and delivery system [ footwork position and recovery of the position ]

These things can have different levels of skill , tough hard style guys just go in bang and trust there conditioning , guys with good skill and footwork and timing are more evasive and precise when setting up the power shot and have a recovery system built in

Master O was more brawler [ tough guy approach ] lacking in recovery and evasive motion , maybe he doesn’t need it trust his one shot and has good timing , but I didn’t see that in the video . perhaps you have others ?

The tai chi guy required a set posture this is death in any fight so it’s non functional power

Both men kept their heads exposed [ no protective or recovery elements ]

So there is more then just generating power , thus I have heard
:D

YongChun

10-26-2004, 04:09 PM

Actually to me Tai Chi is as good as any art and to me just is a combination of punching, kicking, grappling and joint locking all combined together in some smooth blend.

I have met a couple of Tai Chi fighters. Some were in my Yang style lineage all came out of Judo and could fight. The teacher learnd from Yang Cheng Fu's oldest son who seems to have a good fighting reputation. Then I met William C.C. Chen in New York and I thought his bunch was good. They were very relaxed but could hit explosively using whatever posture they wanted from the form. They also put on the gloves and sparred. Some people figured they were doing Western boxing but they weren't.

Then I met some guy that said he represented the Yang style in Hong Kong. He trained with bags, wooden dummies, sparring, the whole bit. He said there was just some misconception that you just do the form and pushing hands and then can fight. He said on the contrary it's like any other fighting arts with bag work, wooden dummy work and sparring. I played with that guy and he was pretty good (or I was pretty bad).

Ray

Ernie

10-26-2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
Actually to me Tai Chi is as good as any art and to me just is a combination of punching, kicking, grappling and joint locking all combined together in some smooth blend.

I have met a couple of Tai Chi fighters. Some were in my Yang style lineage all came out of Judo and could fight. The teacher learnd from Yang Cheng Fu's oldest son who seems to have a good fighting reputation. Then I met William C.C. Chen in New York and I thought his bunch was good. They were very relaxed but could hit explosively using whatever posture they wanted from the form. They also put on the gloves and sparred. Some people figured they were doing Western boxing but they weren't.

Then I met some guy that said he represented the Yang style in Hong Kong. He trained with bags, wooden dummies, sparring, the whole bit. He said there was just some misconception that you just do the form and pushing hands and then can fight. He said on the contrary it's like any other fighting arts with bag work, wooden dummy work and sparring. I played with that guy and he was pretty good (or I was pretty bad).

Ray

only referring to the video clips
Ray
but in general as a fighting art i have very little respect for tai chi
many of the issues in covering distance mobility and dealing with broken timing are not really developed

there might be some that take it to another level that get ok skills , but that path bag work sparring and so on would with out the tai chi element

judo another art that doesn't really have a well rounded tool chest good in it's element but not so in others IMO

YongChun

10-26-2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
only referring to the video clips
Ray
but in general as a fighting art i have very little respect for tai chi
many of the issues in covering distance mobility and dealing with broken timing are not really developed

there might be some that take it to another level that get ok skills , but that path bag work sparring and so on would with out the tai chi element

judo another art that doesn't really have a well rounded tool chest good in it's element but not so in others IMO

For me I didn't see those defects. I think Tai Chi is as complete as any art. Sure lots of Tai Chi people can't fight and could care less about fighting. But that's nothing to do with the art. The Tai Chi fighters I have met fought like anyone else and distancing, timing, broken rythm stuff all would have been developed the same as when anyone spars. These days Tai Chi is not marketed as a fighting art so most people can't fight. But to me it has everything and it's just the training procedure that determines if you can use it the same as for Wing Chun. Wing Chun doesn't turn you into a fighter either and deal with broken rythm timing, distancing etc. Those things come from fighting practice and have nothing to do with the art. The art is just the DNA for fighting which has to be put to use. It's the same as the DNA we are born with and then we put that to use to become fighters, scientists, politicians, mathematicians, bums or whatever. On the surface BJJ doesn't look so well rounded either but it managed to do OK in the MMA events and also does OK on the streets of Brazil. Some BJJ do supplement their skills with boxing however.

Ray

Ernie

10-26-2004, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
For me I didn't see those defects. I think Tai Chi is as complete as any art. Sure lots of Tai Chi people can't fight and could care less about fighting. But that's nothing to do with the art. The Tai Chi fighters I have met fought like anyone else and distancing, timing, broken rythm stuff all would have been developed the same as when anyone spars. These days Tai Chi is not marketed as a fighting art so most people can't fight. But to me it has everything and it's just the training procedure that determines if you can use it the same as for Wing Chun. Wing Chun doesn't turn you into a fighter either and deal with broken rythm timing, distancing etc. Those things come from fighting practice and have nothing to do with the art. The art is just the DNA for fighting which has to be put to use. It's the same as the DNA we are born with and then we put that to use to become fighters, scientists, politicians, mathematicians, bums or whatever. On the surface BJJ doesn't look so well rounded either but it managed to do OK in the MMA events and also does OK on the streets of Brazil. Some BJJ do supplement their skills with boxing however.

Ray

maybe if i put it this way arts like tai chi and judo in general don't seem to have well developed training methods to bring out good solid fighting skill :D

on average take a 2 year tai chi guy and a 2 year boxer remove the gloves and let the chips land were they may
my money will be on the boxer

now if you train the tai chi in a similar method as the boxer then perhaps things my be different

big huge problem with tai chi they need to much of a root
this is a crutch

yellowpikachu

10-26-2004, 05:14 PM

hahaha,

we seem to be far off from the simple topic about the basic components of power generation of SLT.

To compare of Mas Oyama, TaijI, boxing, fighting......

we might be right. or we might not up to that level of understanding yet.

So, what is your basic key power generation of SLT?

Muscle? Momentum? structure? foot work...?

YongChun

10-26-2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
maybe if i put it this way
1) arts like tai chi and judo in general don't seem to have well developed training methods to bring out good solid fighting skill :D

2) on average take a 2 year tai chi guy and a 2 year boxer remove the gloves and let the chips land were they may
my money will be on the boxer

3) now if you train the tai chi in a similar method as the boxer then perhaps things my be different

4) big huge problem with tai chi they need to much of a root
this is a crutch

1) true enough, I don't know how Tai Chi fighters from the past trained though.

2) Can't compare that way because some arts have a lot more techniques to work on. Take boxing, add 3,000 techniques to that and then try to train that as some kind of art. In two years you might end up with nothing but in ten maybe with something. In Wing Chun you can just train the chain punch and rushing in for two years. That might win a lot of fights too espeically if you just used that to spar with Thai people every day until you could get it to work. But then what kind of Wing Chun would you have?

3) But then you might not end up with Tai Chi or any of it's applications and ability to counter Chin Na for a small example.

4) To me rooting is just a part the same as Wing Chun rooting. The art should be mobile. The normal progression in learning Tai Chi is learn the form, learn pushing hands, learn the applications, learn free style usage, add more and more speed and power and put it all into a big random fighting mix. Most people these days just get to the form and pushing hands part the same as most Wing Chun people just getting to the form and sticking hands part. So the skills for the fighters and the non-fighters in eah camp should be similar.

Sorry about the off-topic. At a lower level I don't see any big differences in power generation betwen Tai Chi, Wing Chun, boxing or Hung style. A punch is a punch. All the punches hurt like hell if they connect. Someone knowledgeable in both hard and soft fighting arts figured the best Tai Chi people might be able to generate 15% better force with all their deep theories. Then again some hard stylist might dispute that. The instant you fire a hit you should be rooted for maximum force but a non rooted position can also generate a knockout hit. Any kind of mass that hits your skull could do the damage.

Ray

yellowpikachu

10-27-2004, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Hendrik-let's leave those you or me experience the first hand stuffs. out. those are about ego. if it is not talking about ZEN SATORI which I dont think we are talking about

cool ,
Power generation and body mechanics are passion of mine
The study of functional power has been journey for me , so the subject honestly intrigues me , I don’t follow your [ Chinese terms and sayings ] so in some ways we might be on the same page and not even know it , but I have gone through many methods of training power from many countries and there is more alike then different , since the engine is still the body and mind ,

But looking at master O I see sloppy non functional power , let me explain as to not be disrespectful , with all power [ stable , momentum , whipping , explosive and so on ] there has to be a functional targeting system and protective properties [ people move and hit back ] bricks , boards and animals do not
So I look to see the targeting system and delivery system [ footwork position and recovery of the position ]

These things can have different levels of skill , tough hard style guys just go in bang and trust there conditioning , guys with good skill and footwork and timing are more evasive and precise when setting up the power shot and have a recovery system built in

Master O was more brawler [ tough guy approach ] lacking in recovery and evasive motion , maybe he doesn’t need it trust his one shot and has good timing , but I didn’t see that in the video . perhaps you have others ?

The tai chi guy required a set posture this is death in any fight so it’s non functional power

Both men kept their heads exposed [ no protective or recovery elements ]

So there is more then just generating power , thus I have heard
:D

Care to discribe and illustrate in details what do you mean by no protective, recovery system, more evasive, precise, non functional power ?

so we here can understand what you real mean from your view?

Ernie

10-27-2004, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Care to discribe and illustrate in details what do you mean by no protective, recovery system, more evasive, precise, non functional power ?

so we here can understand what you real mean from your view?

Care to describe and illustrate in details what do you mean by no protective,

---- based on the clip provided the hands are held way to low there no upper lever guard , anyone with a nice jab or over hand or cross would capitalize on the huge window , any one knows you don’t drop you hands unless you have distance , footwork , or very good slipping skills , or you are baiting the guy and trust your speed ,

in the clip Master O showed none of the above , perhaps in others he does , also the guy that he was working with was scared and stiff as a board , so maybe master O didn’t feel the need to have a safety factor , just speculating

recovery system,

----- when ever you fire with power , there is a certain level of commitment and body weight , this commitment will open doors and leave you exposed to counter or leave a timing window that is needed to regain your neutral non committed position , every good fighter tries to minimize that window , by setting up the power shot in a way it will have a better risk to reward ratio or putting themselves in a position as the fire that keeps them out of a counters clear line of site

master O did none of the above he just swung his arms and shoved with his body , it was size weight and intimidation , and yes these things work if your tough and have a high pain tolerance , and those old school karate dudes were conditioned to be tough , so maybe they never needed to develop good footwork and the ability to slip and evade power

more evasive, precise, non functional power ?

---- what you call pendulum power , I call the body leading the hands it’s a relaxed wave and sharp focal shock , problem is it’s way to telegraphic and really only works if a guy falls into your shot or is so non mobile he sits there and lets you hit him

try and apply that to a very mobile fighter that can read your motion he will just slip out of the power range and hit you as the pendulum swings back or at the end when it dissipates , so I call it non functional it has a lot of power sure but really hitting a guy that can hit back in motion and controls distance won’t be easy , you are to exposed

but as you said maybe I’m just crazy

yellowpikachu

10-27-2004, 02:41 PM

Ernie,

Thanks for your desciption of your view. appreciated.

What you think as pendulum power might not be others' pendulum power .

As for Oyama, you might be right you might be wrong. and it is ok. everyone is free to have thier own idea and opinion.

Ernie

10-27-2004, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ernie,

Thanks for your desciption of your view. appreciated.

What you think as pendulum power might not be others' pendulum power .

As for Oyama, you might be right you might be wrong. and it is ok. everyone is free to have thier own idea and opinion.

no worries no it's your turn describe what you see and your experience with pendulum power
and it's benifits
or negitives

to keep things in the healthy spirit of sharing ;)

PaulH

10-28-2004, 01:44 PM

Por Jung! =)

P.S. I like the "Cleave Center" translation better. Omaya used his hands/arm like an axe cut right into the coming body.

yellowpikachu

10-28-2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Ernie
no worries no it's your turn describe what you see and your experience with pendulum power
and it's benifits
or negitives

to keep things in the healthy spirit of sharing ;)

Long story and lots of dirty laundry list.

There is swing. there is hook. and swing is not hook but both "travel" circular. There is shoulder whirl. There is hip turn. there is reel, there is......bla bla bla....

There is root. There is drop. and root is not drop but both rely on gravitation force.

There is body. There is body weight. and body is not neccessary body weight but both rely on body.

There is evade, there is set up, there is interrupt, , there is seal off, there is frienting , there is open, there is withdrawing. there is slide in....

It is a big long dirty stories no one wants to hear and too tired to write a book here. with all the combinations. . :D

Better get back to SLT and its power generation topic so others can share the discussion. so not off topic. :D

Ernie

10-28-2004, 04:29 PM

better to show me some day , i'm a visual person if i see it once i understand it :)

I had long talk with Gary last night about the SLT engine , what is wing chun power and how people mistake that power and try and put in other types of power that don't fit the structure [ trying to make it a chi gung or other type of energy]

he went through all the aspects of how to build release and apply

it was fun

yellowpikachu

10-28-2004, 04:34 PM

BTW. from your description, your angle of view seems like more prone toward western boxing way of viewing for me. I might be wrong.

Since everyone has a basic angle on how to view thing, there is nothing about right or wrong.
Say, a karateka will view the samething differently. a Taiji master will view from different angle...etc a CLF guy will view different from karate or Taiji.....

Contradict to lots of people, i believe boxing people also knows some ways of fajing, since jing is not just one type.

Thus, I have heard, Jack Dempsey know and had mastered alots about Jing.

Speaking of Jack, I would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to Dave who passed away years ago who gave me one of Jack's book. My respect to Jack is not less then other masters from the east.

Ernie

10-28-2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
BTW. from your description, your angle of view seems like more prone toward western boxing way of viewing for me. I might be wrong.

Since everyone has a basic angle on how to view thing, there is nothing about right or wrong.
Say, a karateka will view the samething differently. a Taiji master will view from different angle...etc a CLF guy will view different from karate or Taiji.....

Contradict to lots of people, i believe boxing people also knows some ways of fajing, since jing is not just one type.

Thus, I have heard, Jack Dempsey know and had mastered alots about Jing.

Speaking of Jack, I would like to take this opportunity to say thanks to Dave who passed away years ago who gave me one of Jack's book. My respect to Jack is not less then other masters from the east.

Hendrik
I only see the body mechanics not a style

body mechanics can't lie but people do :D

as for boxing having jing or gain ging [SP}

yes all the same elements relaxed explosive power with body structure and intent

i have been hit by both with out gloves and the feeling is close

there is a slight difference

one is a electric type power the other more of a pure power like something natural not to much [ measured ]

both give have good results

yellowpikachu

10-28-2004, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Ernie

I only see the body mechanics not a style

Believe it or not, different style has different view and different way of body mechanics.

Wing Chun Style
CLF style
There are drunken style
There are grounding style...

Even within WCK family,
Some view SLT as just physical.
Some view SLT has more the physical..
some core in Full Arrow platfrom
some core in Broken arrow platform

Different style, different view , different conditioning , a fat sifu, a small and thin sifu, ......is going to create different body mechanics.. what one think is no good might be great for others.

in my experience it is deeper then visual ...

world is about variaty. :D

Lets get back to the discussion of SLT and its power generation.
Care to share?

Ernie

10-28-2004, 08:55 PM

hendrik-Believe it or not, different style has different view and different way of body mechanics.

Wing Chun Style
CLF style
There are drunken style
There are grounding style...

----- no hendrik there is only one body , just different expressions of that bodies ability to generate power , each expression , short burst , twist , swing etc will have to have a connected linkage to support , a balance point and so on

if you know what to look for it’s all right there just erase style and look at the common denominator the body and mind

the body can only move in so many ways , so some people call that power jing others people might say it’s a snap or what ever but it’s still the same thing

now some might develop it to a higher degree then others and that’s fun to investigate but in the end still the same thing

and if you apply a function combative filter , meaning how useful is it in a fight and how probable is it that it will have a chance to be used

it limits the amount types of power and body mechanics way down

so there will even be more similarities from continent to continent

but I will leave you with your discussion of SLT , I got my energy demo from Gary and things were pretty clear

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

----- no hendrik there is only one body , just different expressions of that bodies ability to generate power , each expression , short burst , twist , swing etc will have to have a connected linkage to support , a balance point and so on ....

I got my energy demo from Gary and things were pretty clear

Dont you think it is interesting that just a SLT set why people doing it in a very different way?

There is Gary way. There is TST way where Nim is emphasis. (one can't see nim, it is not visual at all. Unlesss TST tells one what to do) There is ....lots of ways.

There is one body, however, there are different muscle training, there are breathing, there are intention, there are Qi flow. There are atleast 4 domains. Thus, it cant be a generazation to the samething.

If it can be a generazation, there will be no so much different way of SLT/SNT flowing around.

Ernie

10-29-2004, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Dont you think it is interesting that just a SLT set why people doing it in a very different way?

There is Gary way. There is TST way where Nim is emphasis. (one can't see nim, it is not visual at all. Unlesss TST tells one what to do) There is ....lots of ways.

There is one body, however, there are different muscle training, there are breathing, there are intention, there are Qi flow. There are atleast 4 domains. Thus, it cant be a generazation to the samething.

If it can be a generazation, there will be no so much different way of SLT/SNT flowing around.

Simple
When people try and *make* SLT or what ever become many things , instead of *using* a combative filter to define what is ‘’efficient’’ power
There is useful power that produces results in a combative environment .this type of power has a higher consistency rate and higher rate of probability
Then there is demonstration power this has no checks and balances so it can have a wide range of appearances and theories its still power for sure
But it has less of a consistency and probability beyond a cooperative demonstration ,

So if your goal is combative efficiency and effectiveness then you spend your time researching and cultivating *useful* power
Useful meaning it shouldn’t take to long to develop , the majority of people can get [ good training and cultivating system ] and it proves it’s self with consistency in a non cooperative combative environment

Simple Direct Effective

When you have a goal , things get very clear

If your goal is combative effectiveness , the power should work in a violent situation were your mind and body are having to deal with that type of pressure
If your goal is just the study of *all* the possibilities , then I can see why you would spend a life time wondering why this guy breaths this way and that guy bends his knee that way and so on

When you fought you remember certain things had better results then others , right
Certain things worked when you were training and you mind was calm , but they didn’t work during a real fight were chaos kicks in
As the pressure goes up the amount of things that works goes down

So I would have to ask myself when watching or studying a persons ideas
Can they pull it off in a fight and if so does it come up only in a wing Chun environment or is it universal
And how long does it take to develop it vs how often it has a chance of coming up ?

If you have a goal and ask the right questions then things get very clear
;)

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Simple
When people try and *make* SLT or what ever become many things , instead of *using* a combative filter to define what is ?efficient? ......

Simple Direct Effective

When you have a goal , things get very clear

If your goal is combative effectiveness , the power should work in a violent situation ..................
If you have a goal and ask the right questions then things get very clear
;)

You think those Chinese in RED BOAT and Canton or Fujian think the same with modern day Hong Kong Chinese who is always in rush rush? Or the Wall street guys/gals?

Even the way how those people writing Composition is different ( I learn it in English for foreign student 101) . So, cant have one cookie cutter mind set to fit all.

Not to mention, you will be in the biggest trouble (which looks very likely :D) if those ancient red boat people enjoy PROCESS instead of reading Covey's the seven habit of effective person and has tons of mission, goal, roles, todo list and appointment. :D

Ernie

10-29-2004, 08:39 AM

Don't care what the Red boat people thought , they were probably less educated then the average 13 year old today

and had no world experience

just a small speck of dust in all that was going on in the world

but to quote from the big man , until people grow a 3rd arm or 3rd leg things are pretty much all the same

but i know Hendrik people need to feel different and special

there is a great difference between the study and application of functional power

and the entertainment value of demonstration power

but this is your thread bro , so have fun :cool:

PaulH

10-29-2004, 08:43 AM

The show must go on! =D

I enjoy your accents in conversing English!

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Don't care what the Red boat people thought , they were probably less educated then the average 13 year old today ....

remember Daoism of China? that great believe influencing the Chinese even if they are just 6 years old, it is about living not about setting goals or mission. they believing in circular then straight?
too bad today's educated twenty something doesnt realized. there goes the education. :D:D:D:D

what to recover if the motion is circular and "un-ended" hehehehe. what to guard if every weakness is a draw of Jack Dempsey? every drunken of Oyama is a droping step of Jack? Oyama is real sloppy but Oyama never lost a fight right? dont you think that is strange? hahahaha.

I dont think all Cuban's Cigar taste the same either. No cookie cutter for Cigar. :D and the Cuban's can makes much much better Cigar then a Phd in Electical engineering.

One can do SLT in Circular way, in linear way, in continous way, in discrete way.... all the ways and ways....

There is evolution and localized evolution. why not! :D:D:D:D

better go back to the topic now. instead of off topic.

Ernie

10-29-2004, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
remember Daoism of China? that great believe influencing the Chinese even if they are just 6 years old, it is about living not about setting goals or mission. believing in circular then straight?
too bad today's educated twenty something doesnt realized. there goes the education. :D:D:D:D

what to recover if the motion is circular and "un-ended" hehehehe. what to guard if every weakness is a draw of Jack Dempsey? every drunken of Oyama is a droping step of Jack? Oyama never lost right? hahahaha.

I dont think all Cuban's Cigar taste the same either. No cookie cutter for Cigar. :D

Daoism doesn’t hit you in the face a hand does
A cigar is not a hand
And Master O and jack have are dead and were just 2 people that wouldn’t stand a chance against to days 20 something fighters

It is very simple can *you* produce results ?
Today , right now , with consistency ?
If not then , who cares what happened on a boat X amount of years ago with a bunch of UN educated farmers =)

There is a difference between functional power and demonstration power and that fact will not change =)

Trying to make it Chinese ,German ,Ethiopian or what ever is a trap of the ego

This is a very small and limited view

But people like to feel special I guess
:rolleyes:

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

Trying to make it Chinese ,German ,Ethiopian or what ever is a trap of the ego

This is a very small and limited view

But people like to feel special I guess
:rolleyes:

In contrally,
when one goes to a village, one learn how the village live, accept, embrace, understand, and and respect their differences.

When one forcing one's GREAT VIEW on others without understanding. That is the Sign of EGO trap and limited view.

Isnt it there was a queen, Saying " if the peasants is in hunger why dont they eat meat? " :D:D:D:D

BTW, German makes Great beer. Chinese makes Great tea. Cuban makes great Cigar. Indian makes great curry. and the list goes on..

Ernie

10-29-2004, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
In contrally, when one goes to a village, one learn how the village live, accept, embrace, understand, and and respect their differences.

When one forcing one's GREAT VIEW on others without understanding. That is the Sign of EGO trap and limited view.

Isnt it there was a queen, Saying " if the peasants is in hunger why dont they eat meat? " :D:D:D:DD

the only great view is the universal human body , this is a all embracing view , not the village view

and there is no ego , just results bro

and these results have to be with more then just a handful of people or stories

functional power and demonstration power
not the same
can't get around that sorry

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Ernie

just results bro

This statement itself is contradiction to awareness/meditation /breathing related trainings.

where living the process , go no Where (no where is now here) , get No things, feeling the environment is a key of mind and breathing training.

Mind and breathing are part of body right?

Ernie

10-29-2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
This statement itself is contradiction to awareness/meditation /breathing related trainings.

where living the process , go no Where (no where is now here) , get No things, feeling the environment is the key.

so your telling me that there are no functional results then

cool

people like to dog paddle and take there time go slow feel safe to cross the pool

other were result based took a chance learned to swim and enjoyed the fruits of good results

yet people will still swear by the trusty old dog paddle ha ha ha ha

no results -------- no goal ------- non functional

see how simple that is

again nothing wrong with studing all the diffrent ways to dog paddle
were it came from what the first master of the dog paddle was
who the undefeated dog paddle champ was

you could spend a life time

me i like results so would rather improve my swiming and look ad better more advanced ways to swim ;)

ha ha ha man i just couldn't help my self useing the swimming idea again

functional and non functional can't escape it hendrik it is the measuring stick for combative effectivness

now if not being effecive meaning you don't desire results then anything will sound good

:D :D

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
so your telling me that there are no functional results then

cool

people like to dog paddle and take there time go slow feel safe to cross the pool ........

now if not being effecive meaning you don't desire results then anything will sound good

:D :D

You are a great Candidate for Trumps' Appentice. Trump will sure love you in his board room! :D:D:D

Ernie

10-29-2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
You are a great Candidate for Trumps' Appentice. Trump will sure love you in his board room! :D:D:D

a fight is a fight :D

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
a fight is a fight :D

you watch how all those people fight in the board room of Trump?
Bloody and for survival and for Identity right? :D

PaulH

10-29-2004, 09:57 AM

Actually for lack of better term I think Ernie focuses on meaning or purpose. Big difference - result and purpose.

Ernie

10-29-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
you watch how all those people fight in the board room of Trump?
Bloody and for survival and for Identity right? :D

the same way you would fight for your life in a street fight
with the most barbaric evil dirty tactics , with no human respect for what ever is infront of you

ahh the stuf that produces real world results

got to love pure honest ass whooping

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Actually for lack of better term I think Ernie focused on meaning or purpose. Big difference - result and purpose.

Some goes for meaning, some goes for result, some goes for purpose, some goes for productive (shipping bricks is ok if that show productive :D)........

That is just world. hehehehe

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
the same way you would fight for your life in a street fight
with the most barbaric evil dirty tactics , with no human respect for what ever is infront of you

ahh the stuf that produces real world results

got to love pure honest ass whooping

some choose to live in surviaval mode.
some drink starbuck and read some books with his/her free time.
Some life is a jungel.
some life is playing golf even at war time.
some win makes money
some lost makes money
some win or lost always makes money.

isnt it a wonderfull world? As you like it. hehehehe

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 10:03 AM

Ok,
so, anyone care to share more about the SLT power generation? :D

We have been of track! :D:D:D

Ernie

10-29-2004, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Actually for lack of better term I think Ernie focuses on meaning or purpose. Big difference - result and purpose.

Paul
Real simple equation

2 people walk into a room

1 walks out
1 is carried out

either you are training to be the one that walks out
and set your goals and training methods to produce those results

or you will be the one that is carried out
and can have all the non productive training methods you like

functional power non functional power very simple

Problem is if you never have a clear goal you can spin in circles and get nothing for ever generation after generation ;)

Ernie

10-29-2004, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Ok,
so, anyone care to share more about the SLT power generation? :D

We have been of track! :D:D:D

Hendrik describe the difference between pure power and pass over power

in SLT

Functional Power

and demonstration power

in SLT

if SLT is more then just a From and it's goal is combat

there are more effective ways to use and generate primary power
and helping power

care to share

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Paul
Real simple equation

2 people walk into a room

1 walks out
1 is carried out

....

Why not

2 people walk into a room

both walk out smile?

why not

2 people walk into a room

Both walk out with a baby?

why not

2 people walk into a room

Both walk out refressing?

there is something call CREATIVE link with lifeforce man. :D
a lifeforce without CREATIVE is going to generate depression
and

2 people walk into a room

Both walk out crying! :D:D:D:

2 people walk into a room

and Trump said --- You are fired! hehehehe

yellowpikachu

10-29-2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Ernie
Hendrik describe the difference between pure power and pass over power

in SLT

Functional Power

and demonstration power

in SLT

if SLT is more then just a From and it's goal is combat

there are more effective ways to use and generate primary power
and helping power

care to share

Great!
Now you are speaking! :D:D:D:D

yellowpikachu

10-30-2004, 11:49 AM

No one thinks the power generation is important for the SLT?

Come on, get creative.

Otherwise,

it is better go and learn boxing --- straight jab, hook, upper cut.

Hello anyone here?

10-30-2004, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
No one thinks the power generation is important for the SLT?

Come on, get creative.

Otherwise,

it is better go and learn boxing --- straight jab, hook, upper cut.

Hello anyone here?

Yes, I'm here and yes, I think it is important.

To me, the kind of power developed through practice of the first set is that of whole body power generation; the body learning to function as an integrated, balanced, settled, and well connected unit. The feel of the power may manifest in different ways throughout the forms and training, and I suppose there are an infinite number of ways to characterize or describe it. But in my experience and to my simple mind it still boils down to this.

I don't have the physical make up to do very well as a western style boxer, for example, thus appropriate for me to focus elsewhere.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yellowpikachu

10-30-2004, 10:35 PM

KJ,

Great post !

It is an interest of mine to work with ladies to investigate the power generation process of SLT.

With that in mind, I am working on what I temperory called --- the Five petal plum flower Training. may be called it --- X5 (similar to the BMW X5 4 wheel drive) sound better for a product design in this second millinium. :D:D:D

There are 5 simple short flexible sets which develop the snake body / crane momentum, from spine and breathing coordination, sensing, and multi-dimentional integration. And an integration set which is about a few basic keys on power generation or fajing, so that after having expose to the first five sets one can make further integrate everything into a holistic piece.

It is a designed or editing instead of a creation because it is not a new invention, but instead an editing of basic keys to purposely amplified and emphasis the big picture/ fundamental keys of my lineage. hopefully, after completion of this training, one beable to see the beauty of SLT/SNT.

Perhaps, some days these will reach out and available to all the sisters in WCners who is interested.

No, it wont be a TaeBo but it will be more closer to Pilates in power and dynamic flow form. with a guarentee of doing it for 20 mins a day continously for two weeks will improve mind/body/ energy/power generation handling/flow atleast 200% or more. :D:D :D

In the mean time, I get back to my garage Lab. see if the new monster works. :D:D