Fights That Begin As One-On-One and Then Transition to Multiple Attackers

[lawrenceofidaho]

I wanted to use Rene & Terence's splinter discussion from the "fighter" thread to begin a new topic:

The Gracie's standard argument is that one defender using any martial art to fight off multiple attackers is the stuff of urban myth and not repeatable, high percentage, reality. -Rene

Yup. To expound a bit, that's because *skill* should be repeatable on demand. So if someone claims a skill level that permits them to defeat multiple opponents, they should be able to step up and prove it on demand. Of course, we all know examples where trained and untrained people have "survived" group attacks; but then, we also know of people surviving bear and shark attacks. Was it skill that permitted them to survive? Could they do it a second time? -Terence

Aren't many of the multiple attacker scenarios we hear about actually situations where a fight began as one-on-one, and then escalated to a multiple attacker situation as the friends of the guy who was losing began to jump in to "help their buddy"?

Perhaps there's a hostile group in front of you, but only one of them is; mean enough / drunk enough / stupid enough to initiate a physical attack against you. It's very possible that none of the others will get involved so long as:

a) The aggressor of their group has the situation "under control"

OR

b) It doesn't seem reasonably safe for them to do so

So.......if you are attacked by some idiot who has a group of friends standing beside him, and you take him to the ground and begin applying a rear naked choke, -you can pretty much guarantee that you are about to feel several kicks landing on your body and head in the coming moments because both "a" and "b" from above are not reflective of the current situation.

Yet.......what if you are attacked by the same idiot, but instead, you hit him several times in the neck and head, stunning him and dropping him to the ground? -At this point, the friend(s) around him have a choice to make; "Do I want to charge in and take a shot at this guy who just dropped my buddy (who's tougher, meaner, and more aggressive than I am, -that's why HE attacked in the first place, and not me), especially when the guy who dropped him is standing there in a ready position with his hands set to fire off some more of those punches?"

Even a unskilled coward might swing a kick or two at a grappler who has thrown his friend down and begun putting a hold on him because he doesn't sense an immediate threat as the grappler would have to; let go of his friend, get up, and close the distance (or catch him, if he's running) before he is any danger. -And besides; during that time, the first guy would be able to pick himself up off the ground and re-stack the odds in their favor.

It's quite another thing for that same coward to consider walking into striking range of a guy who he has just seen throw his fists with; quickness, accuracy, and knockout power that is standing there ready for him.......

I would like to put forth the idea that in a potential multiple attacker situation, logic would seem to indicate that you have a better chance of keeping it from escalating (to a full blown multiple attacker scenario) by using striking techniques, rather than grappling techniques.

-Lawrence

[YongChun]

I think it's a reasonable argument and people shouldn't get so uptight about these kinds of questions and feel they have to defend grappling arts. Fighting includes both to be used at the right time. My Hung style teachers used the striking approach with multiple opponents. In the story Wong Shun Leung told me where he save his friend from a bunch of guys some of whom had knives, he used standup striking and not ground grappling because the latter was not his specialty. It seems to conserve more energy if you can strike someone down rather than to go immediately to the ground. When I was a kid, I did nothing but wrestle but in these situations I would prefer to strike. The situation would dictate what actually occurs. If the attackers are skillful then even one is a handfull so it's unlikely you can take out several. But I think a lot of the cases we hear about where a master did that, was the case of one skillful guy against a half dozen unskillful guys.

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun is mistakenly seen as a striking art. While striking is a
big part of wing chun- it is controlling that is the key to wing chun.

Controlling yourself and the other person.

Sun Zu still lives!

[Vajramusti]

Location makes a difference. Bars for instance have their own personalities.

And some bars are more natural than others for a single argument or confrontaion spilling over into a multiple person fight,

Part of self defense involves reading the environment.

[Matrix]

Joy,

I absolutely agree with both of your points.
Being aware of your environment is really key. Also, the control element may be overlooked, as you said, if all you are doing is looking for the hit.

[Vankuen]

Rather then answer the question I pose a couple more thing to think about when answering this on your own...

One, with any "real" confrontation therein lies a degree of luck to get you out safely or to even survive the encounter. Again this all depends on the variables within that particular encounter...however the element of luck always plays a role, in addition of course to any skills you have developed and trained for in real time combat.

Two, fighting multiple attackers has been an important issue from the day man fought in combat for the very first time. Very rarely in real combat are the odds in favor of the victim. Warriors from various armies of various countries all had to deal with mulitple attackers in real combat. Not all survived, but it was not something that was considered myth then, right? This can be attirbuted to both skill and luck.

Three, I believe this may have already been mentioned, however the skill level of the victim in comparison to the skill level of the attackers I would say probably plays the biggest role in the "skill/luck" ratio. If you are fighting 3 lesser skilled individuals and you are one of high level (in real combat, not mcdojo combat) then odds are your skill will take you further. If fighting more accomplished attackers, then you better hope you have some good luck as well, or at least some friends nearby.

Too many variables to say what the outcome would be. But in reference to the clip where RR said that "skill could be denoted by repeatable performance" (or something along the lines of that) IF the same great fighter, fought the same 3 not so great fighters, I would say that this would be a do-able thing....at least in the best 3 out of four aspect anyway. We all have our bad days right?

Anyway, good thread. Gets you thinking.

[Matrix]

Vankuen,

I think you're right about the "luck" factor. There is always that element of risk. One thing I will say in response, is a paraphrase of a famous quote " The harder I train, the luckier I get."

peace,

[Vankuen]

Good one. I heard something similar from a JKD guy a while back, "people aren't lucky in a fight, they're just more well prepared". I can't remember the guy's name now...dark haired JKD guy with lots of vids....Burton Richardson maybe?

Anyway, that can be true. There is another saying though...and this would counteract that statement...."you will never see the knife that kills you".

[Matrix]

Sure thing, but remember: "Never bring a knife to a gun fight" ;)
And so the escalation begins...............

[Vankuen]

I seem to remember in the most recent version of the punisher movie that a knife worked quite well in a gun fight......

[Matrix]

Could be............ a lot stuff works in the movies. Do you want the red or the blue pill? ;)

[Vankuen]

My point exactly.

So then if you never see the knife that kills you....how would you know to pull out the gun? Point being, one can have all the fighting tools in the world, but if catalyst to use it is not seen until its too late....there's not much even a gun can do for you.

There are fighters, and there are killers. Killers don't care about rules, theatrics, or anything of the sort. Some will even fein friendlyness before killing you. So my point is that in the totality of all things...if someone really wants you dead, often times there is little on can do about it. It's good to have skill...but the rest is luck more often then not.

[AmanuJRY]

Would it be good to scare off the would-be attackers by beating the 'leader' in the head with an ashtray???

....or bouncing his head off a Lexus???

[Shadow Skill]

I don't know about the ash tray I'm not a big fan of the smoking section (lol). Instead of hitting the the biggest and baddest, hit who ever is closest first. The closes person to you has the most potential to do you harm. So hit his a$$ with the ash tray. who ever you attack first make sure you injur him to the point that his friends need to get him medical attention asap.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by lawrenceofidaho
So.......if you are attacked by some idiot who has a group of friends standing beside him, and you take him to the ground and begin applying a rear naked choke, -you can pretty much guarantee that you are about to feel several kicks landing on your body and head in the coming moments because both "a" and "b" from above are not reflective of the current situation.

I would like to put forth the idea that in a potential multiple attacker situation, logic would seem to indicate that you have a better chance of keeping it from escalating (to a full blown multiple attacker scenario) by using striking techniques, rather than grappling techniques.
Logic and experience tell me that the average person, who is unfamiliar with the effects of chokes, will often think that you have killed his buddy and will be so freaked that the last thing on his mind will be kicking you.

The arguement about whether someone will think twice about get involved is even stronger when one of the assailants is "dead".

If you don't have much grappling training or have never seen a grappler against multiples, you might not understand it, but grappling is just as effective (if not slightly more so) than striking against more than one person.

Knowledge of both, as well as weapons, is always best.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Logic and experience tell me that the average person, who is unfamiliar with the effects of chokes, will often think that you have killed his buddy and will be so freaked that the last thing on his mind will be kicking you.

The arguement about whether someone will think twice about get involved is even stronger when one of the assailants is "dead".

If you don't have much grappling training or have never seen a grappler against multiples, you might not understand it, but grappling is just as effective (if not slightly more so) than striking against more than one person.

Knowledge of both, as well as weapons, is always best.


any time you give up mobility you have limited your options no matter how great your ground game is

cutting your options is not a smart thing in a street situation , to much silly $hit can happen , spending any amount of time on just one dude can get you a shoe job

if you put a real hurting on one what makes you think the rest will be frozen in fear

sure maybe if there a bunch of wussy's
or frat boys

but if they got any street in them they will bomb with all they got the second there boy goes down

and if all you got is ground and pound skills then i hope you have a thick skull :eek:

stay on your feet don't try and be a hero macho what ever stick and move get the hell out of there

being bombed on by a gang is something i have been threw more then once comes with the territory hispanic living in LA
got the scars to prove it

unless you have really been threw it

you don't have a clue on how fast the swarm comes in ,
man dudes have skill at mass attack

also been on the other end of some big collage wrestler dude was beating my friends a$$ in a red onion [ club ] in orange county , the man was huge and fast he was choking my boy and there was like 4 of us on him , couldn't faze the guy finally hit him with a iron bar stool and dropped him

but he did choke my friend out , i'll give him that

:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie


and if all you got is ground and pound skills then i hope you have a thick skull :eek: And if all you have is striking, good luck trying to stay mobile when three grapplers swarm you to the ground.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
unless you have really been threw it

you don't have a clue on how fast the swarm comes in ,
man dudes have skill at mass attack
Spent some younger years as a white boy walking to work in Inglewood.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Spent some younger years as a white boy walking to work in Inglewood.

then you know ,

and your right , need to be versed in all ranges , to favor one is to deny others

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And if all you have is striking, good luck trying to stay mobile when three grapplers swarm you to the ground.

the chance that a ton of grapplers are going to pop out of the wood work vs just regular dumb a$$ dudes is slim

and 3 anybody with any fight skill will eat most guys for lunch no matter what they got in reality

[Knifefighter]

Back in the day, used to cruise the clubs and bars of old Long Beach & Pedro with the original Inosanto crew (mostly strikers).

Same later with the BJJer's (mostly grapplers/groundfighters).

I've seen both used successully, as well as not so successfully.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ernie
the chance that a ton of grapplers are going to pop out of the wood work vs just regular dumb a$$ dudes is slim Depends on where you hang. South Bay beach area is swarming with BJJ guys at the clubs.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Back in the day, used to cruise the clubs and bars of old Long Beach & Pedro with the original Inosanto crew (mostly strikers).

Same later with the BJJer's (mostly grapplers/groundfighters).

I've seen both used successully, as well as not so successfully.


i heard a few good stories about the old crew , some real good ones with Duby and Vu ;)

i agree man you can't call it in a group street scrap , just be glad were still here to argue about it :)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Depends on where you hang. South Bay beach area is swarming with BJJ guys at the clubs.

Ha Ha yea but there a dead give away same gas face , tat's and hair cut :D

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Logic and experience tell me that the average person, who is unfamiliar with the effects of chokes, will often think that you have killed his buddy and will be so freaked that the last thing on his mind will be kicking you.

----------

Knowledge of both, as well as weapons, is always best.

Logic would tell me that if someone was trying to choke my friend to death, I would want to stop them, not tuck tail and run like a biznatch.

If your experience tells you this, you got attacked by scrawny, spineless little punks or a group of dudes who were not really 'friends'.

The last statement I agree with whole-heartedly though.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Logic would tell me that if someone was trying to choke my friend to death, I would want to stop them, not tuck tail and run like a biznatch.

If your experience tells you this, you got attacked by scrawny, spineless little punks or a group of dudes who were not really 'friends'.
Experience tells me that many times people who are watching don't even recognize when a choke is being applied until the person is out.

[wing nut]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Experience tells me that many times people who are watching don't even recognize when a choke is being applied until the person is out.


Is this similar to not knowing about the knife until after you are knifed? :p


After you choke this person (on the ground I'm assuming), you are going to be delayed getting up to escape if need be.
While you are applying the choke, you are probably immobile for a short moment. This gives his buddies chance to surround you.

Even if the buddies think he's going to kick your butt, they are not going to stand still(where they were when the fight started) until they realize he needs help.

I think grappling is great and can work well in this kind of situation, however, you must try to stay on your feet.
If you apply a choke or joint lock with a complementary strike or two, you will have you view of what is happening. If you need to, you can throw him into his friend and run or whatever.

If I were taken to the ground I would throw him off and roll up.lol

Use common sense. If you have to strike,then strike and work your wing chun close range skills. Wing chun works exceptionaly well.

What if this ?
What if that ?


You just have to go with what you have to work with in that moment.