Bad attitude in the leung ting organization?

[Vankuen]

Allright guys, Im going to do my best as to tell this as unbiased as possible. And hopefully you all can shed some light on the subject because Im still in disbelief.

From what I have read and seen of the leung ting organization, It seems that they are not seen in the highest regard by most wing chun community. From their seemingly superior attitude, to their egotistical nature ("great"-grandmaster leung ting?), to their inter-organizational power squabbles...all the way to some people's critiques of their skills being nothing more then using chain punches and a couple of slap blocks as their main weapons.

I thought to put all that aside, as I wished to continue my wing chun training to it's entirety. My stepbrother (who I learned from years ago...) no longer teaches. The only school in town is as you guessed, a LT school. I had met the sifu about 8 years ago, it seemed very up on himself then...but I thought that maybe I just didn't remember the occasion right. SO I went back to the school just yesterday....

I go in and the sifu has me sit down with a younger assistant sifu in the front foyer. They have me watch a video on wing tsun, and then afterwards I asked it it was okay to check out their class a little bit. The assistant says to go ahead and sit on the benches just inside the actual training room. My girlfriend and I sit, and watch as the three pairs of people are working on gor sau / poon sau.

The main sifu then says condescendingly "Im sorry, it's my fault. You don't know whats going on, please ask the assistant some questions" I said it's okay, I don't want to interrupt the training, I don't mind watching. " He then stops what he's doing and comes back to where Im sitting and says "look, it's not that Im saying you can't stay and watch, it's just that we're not setup for specators...and the students get - " "...self consience, I know" I finished the sentence for him. "I won't take any more of your time" I said. The assistant says "go ahead and ask anything you can think of...". I said okay...and sat back down. I asked the assistant "are you guys going to be doing this exercise the whole time?" He said yea that most of the people in there are more advanced and as they will probably go over ..." "Their poon sau?" I said. "yes, he replied their rolling." We paused for a moment and the instructer then again says something along the lines of "you don't know whats going on just by watching, so ask anything you can think of.." Again his down talk comes across loud and clear. I asked about the class rates and the times one can train based on the amt paid. The assistant explained that to me and then went on to show me the lop da drill, and lat sau, and don chi sau. I informed him I was familiar with his drills and what he was doing, that's why I didn't have many questions. I told him that I had wing chun training from my step brother many years ago and he doesnt teach any longer and that's why I came in today. He asked where my stepbrother trained, I said from Robert Yeung in Hawaii. He didn't say anything after that. I said thanks for HIS hospitality, and proceeded to leave. He came out and gave me a brochure for the school, and said to call if I wanted to come back.

On the way to the gym, I asked my Girlfriend what she thought. Keep in mind she doesnt know anything about martial arts...aside from what she sees me going over outside with my own private training partners and students. She said he talks down to people, is ****ey, and didnt have the character to be teaching. She said she wants me to open my own school and put him out of business. I thought this was funny because I had the same impression of him without saying a word to her.

So is it just dumb luck that all the bad press and the local school here seem to go hand in hand or is it that maybe the LT school here is an exception to the good training that obviously lies elsewhere?

[t_niehoff]

When anyone picks a school, there are several issues they need to address. First, does the school represent a genuine lineage of WCK (so that the instructor had access to "the information")? They should be able to trace and prove their lineage back to the Red Boat. Second, does that school actually produce performance results in its students (can they really fight well using their WCK)? You can easily see this if they are fighting as part of their training. Third, are you personally comfortable with the "vibe" or "attitude" of the school? IMO, if the answer to all three isn't "yes", then you are wasting your time.

I've met some top-notch folks that come from WT, btw.

Regards,

Terence

[AmanuJRY]

I won't deny that LT and his organization have a bad rep in the U.S. (as well as elsewhere), but I would suggest you keep in mind that your experience with that school doesn't nessisarily represent every school in the organization. I spent some time in that organization and have known some good people assosiated with it. I have also met some bad elements as well. Ultimately, IMO, this is true for any large organization.

I would say that if you have the knowledge and experience to train others, do so, that way you can still train. And don't be a stranger to the board, there are a good number of people here with very good insight to the art.

[Vankuen]

I agree that a school needs to have certain qualities. The kid that was talking to me, seemed genuinely well meaning. The main sifu, did not.

And please don't confuse my above ranting as meaning the entire organization is no good. I can only base it on the things I read about and the things I see locally. So far, neither arena has shown anything positive in terms. I know there are probably some WT guys out there that do have the character indicitive of the traditional martial artist, and with the skill level. Im just more upset because it's not here.

It's also upsetting because I have only gone a little over halfway in wing chun, chum kil level with the full wooden dummy set. No biu gee or weapons sets or any more advanced things. By all means that's more then enough to fight effectively with it, however, I don't like to leave things unfinished. And this school is the only school in town. Of all my training, this has become the most important to me. So I will have to find other options I think.

[AmanuJRY]

Your progression is interesting. In the LT system 'half way' would be represented by SNT, CK, some chi sau and other 'training methods'. The fact that you know the dummy set (which isn't taught in LT's system untill the last quarter, so to speak) indicates you probably have more experience than most of the people you saw in the class, save for the sifu and maybe some of the top students. Also, in LT's system, learning BJ would come before the dummy, and weapons are like the icing on the cacke they only teach them after everything else.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
When anyone picks a school, there are several issues they need to address. First, does the school represent a genuine lineage of WCK (so that the instructor had access to "the information")? They should be able to trace and prove their lineage back to the Red Boat. Second, does that school actually produce performance results in its students (can they really fight well using their WCK)? You can easily see this if they are fighting as part of their training. Third, are you personally comfortable with the "vibe" or "attitude" of the school? IMO, if the answer to all three isn't "yes", then you are wasting your time.

I've met some top-notch folks that come from WT, btw.

Regards,

Terence

The first point is a pile of crap. A lot of History just doesn't exist. Most stories are just stories. No one can verify some Kung Fu teacher's stories. The second and third points are good.

Ray

[Jedi-X]

My past experience with the Leung Ting lineage is pretty much the same as yours. The people that I've met have been very arrogant and ego-driven. Why that is, I don't know. But I refuse to believe that all of their instructors are like that. I do wish you luck in finding an instructor who will fit your needs.

[old jong]

It's a little bit OT but levels can vary a lot in Wing Chun. Having reached a certain level like The dummy or Chum Kiu is not a garantee of skill level. It is a lot better to have a very good SLT and a very good Chi Sau stick with solid basic footwork than approximative Chum Kiu without it's inherent skill fully ingrained or the Dummy's. Many look good but the real substance is absent from the gestures.
Back to topic!...;)

[KingMonkey]

Maybe it's in the way you tell it but frankly you sound like a bit of a drama queen.
WC/WT training does look strange and confusing to someone new to it. Obviously you arent but it doesnt sound like they were aware of that until after you'd been there some time.
From reading your post I came away with the impression that they had been reasonably polite and friendly and made themselves available to answer your questions.

Still, if you dont like the vibe dont train there.

[Matrix]

I have had similar experiences with other schools. It's no big deal. Just a cue for you to look elsewhere. Every organization has it's share of jerks.

Remember one thing, you went in there with your own pre-conceived notions. Did you tell him upfront that you had previous experience? He does not know who you are or what you are up to. If you made comments about the training going on in front of you, he may have felt you have alterior motives. Who knows what going through the guy's mind? Be careful about jumping to conclusions.

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

The first point is a pile of crap. A lot of History just doesn't exist. Most stories are just stories. No one can verify some Kung Fu teacher's stories.

**That's not true. Anyone that teaches BJJ should be able to prove a lineage to Carlson Gracie (or Helio), the founder of BJJ. This doesn't mean they are good, just that they had access to "the information". In WCK, we can prove lineage -- a line of real people -- back to the Red Boat fairly reliably. If a BJJ instructor couldn't show how he had that connection (for example if he claimed "secret" teachers), I'd be suspect. Same with WCK.

The second and third points are good.

**Thanks.

Terence

[lbrason]

You insult my Si-fu.

I will fight you all.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
YongChun wrote:

The first point is a pile of crap. A lot of History just doesn't exist. Most stories are just stories. No one can verify some Kung Fu teacher's stories.

**That's not true. Anyone that teaches BJJ should be able to prove a lineage to Carlson Gracie (or Helio), the founder of BJJ. This doesn't mean they are good, just that they had access to "the information". In WCK, we can prove lineage -- a line of real people -- back to the Red Boat fairly reliably. If a BJJ instructor couldn't show how he had that connection (for example if he claimed "secret" teachers), I'd be suspect. Same with WCK.

The second and third points are good.

**Thanks.

Terence

Does Yip Man Wing Chun have any validity? Most people come from his lineage. Can he trace his lineage back to the Red Boat people? I think Yip Man existed because I saw his picture although it could have been faked just like the moon landing was. To me it's not important who Yip Man learned from or if he can trace his lineage to Yim Wing Chun from who he said it came. For me I look at what my immediate teacher can do. If it's a lot better than what I can do than I learn from him.

[old jong]

Originally posted by lbrason
You insult my Si-fu.

I will fight you all.

Ha! Ha!...Why don't you go there (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/) :rolleyes:

[old jong]

BTW, somebody copied and pasted the initial post of this thread in there!... (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/)

I hope it's not you Vankuen?...;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

old jong quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lbrason
You insult my Si-fu.

I will fight you all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ha! Ha!...Why don't you go there




NOW THAT'S FUNNY AS H*LL! :D

Old jong That's what they do on that forum, copy and paste too raise H*ll

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Vankuen]

I didnt expect this much response from this thread actually. And to the guy that said I seemed to be a drama queen, I can understand how it may seem that way.

I went in there without any preconceived notions, only one memory of my previous introduction with the sifu. As I stated before...I went there hoping for something good.

In life....it's not what you say...it's how you say it. And typing here doesn't always relay things as they were. Like I said...before telling my girlfriend anything about what I thought, I asked her first. She also thought the same thing about the guy that I did.

When someone walks into my training sessions, Im eager to ask them of their experience, and to find out who it is that's watching me or my class. I try to present to them a humble and non intimidating environment. To me it's just common sense to do so. But this guy automatically assumes that no one can know the "special techniques" that he does. And that's just plain stupid, no matter how you look at it. Not to mention the fact that he basically kicked us out unless we agreed to keep talking to the assistant. I have never seen that kind of attitude anywhere.

And Jong...no that wasn't me that posted there. BTW....I think I remember seeing you on here a few years back....before the crash when my identity was erased...do you remember anything from back then? Around 2000-2001? I used to frequent here then, had lot's of conversations with you and edward...and a couple other wing chun guys as well....Rene, etc. Hopefully I can get back up to speed again. I shouldve kept all those posts we had on MY hard drive. Oh well.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**That's not true. Anyone that teaches BJJ should be able to prove a lineage to Carlson Gracie (or Helio), the founder of BJJ. This doesn't mean they are good, just that they had access to "the information". Terence

Hi Terence,

Somewhere you said other people like the Gracies consider Wing Chun to be a joke. However here someone says Carlson thought Samuel Kwok was very good:

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/treplies.asp?message=1701&all=True

"I too attended this amazing workshop. Both instructors are real gentlemen. Carlson was very high on Sifu Kwok's wing chun. That says a lot for Kwok's ability and the system itself. Carlson Gracie is legendary. He knows fighting, so his word that Sifu Kwok teaches "The Best Stand-Up Fighting I have Seen" should be enough to silence the critics of Wing Chun as a fighting system. Those interested should visit Master Kwok's new association web site for Ip Man - Ip Ching lineage Wing Chun in America. www.ipfamilywingchun.com"

Ray

[anerlich]

I think as everyone said, there are great people and w*nkers in every organisation.

Sometimes, too, you can get off on the wrong foot with someone - and to me that's what seems to have happened - or you have a personality clash with them. It happens at work, everywhere.

I laugh at all the Grandmasters and Great Grandmasters, but every org has their peculiarities and mistakes they have made.

some of the WT people on here - AndrewS, KenWingJutsu, etc. seem like great guys to train with.

[anerlich]

That's not true. Anyone that teaches BJJ should be able to prove a lineage to Carlson Gracie (or Helio), the founder of BJJ.

It would be *correct* to trace lineage back to Carlos Gracie Sr and Helio. Carlos learned JJJ from Maeda, and he and brother Helio altered it into BJJ.

Carlson is the eldest of Carlos Sr's seven sons, others include Rolls (unfortunately deceased) and Carlos Jr (Carlinhos).

[lawrenceofidaho]

There's a guy named Gilbert Leal in your town who trained under LT for a number of years in the WT system, but is teaching independently now (I think it's called "Dragon Martial Arts").

While the guy in your story has made 4th TG rank in WT, Mr. Leal earned a 3rd TG rank under LT several years earlier. I have never met Gilbert Leal, and I know very little about him, so you'll have to go check out his place in person to find out more (but at least you might have an alternative).

BTW. I am aquainted with the guy in your story. -I've trained with him at a couple of LT and EB "instructor seminars" in California. I certainly don't know him well, but he seemed like an okay guy to me, and I didn't really pick up on any egomaniac vibe. (Not to say it isn't possible he's different when he's around "students" and not just his "peers")

(-or maybe he just had a bad day.) :confused:

-Lawrence

[Ravenshaw]

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. Some instructors are so high-and-mighty. I hope that doesn't bring you to the conclusion that all WT people are like that.

I just got started in WT, actually. My Sifu and Leung Ting are old friends, and the opportunity arose to study WT, so I took it.

When I met Leung Ting, he seemed like a pretty nice guy. He didn't act condescending at all, and was pretty accomodating. I am aware of his reputation as an ego-maniac, but I think that comes from the fact that he isn't quiet about his criticisms. I think his style is very strong and his belief in it is strong, which is just what I would expect. I wouldn't want to learn the method of somebody who doesn't believe in it himself.

The organization in general seems to have a similar attitude: they believe that LT's approach is the best. That is why they practice it. I still haven't met a person in the IWTA who thinks it places them above than anyone else. I'm sure they exist, and my teacher has mentioned some to me. I am fortunate enough to have a good-natured instructor.

Do I think being a part of LT's organization makes me better than all the WC folks? Most definitely not. LT's system seems very strong to me, but I don't have enough experience with any other WC to really be able to make any kind of assertion like that. I have not experienced this bad attitude. I'm not so naive that I think it doesn't exist, but I genuinely hope bad attitudes are the exception, not the norm.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ravenshaw
When I met Leung Ting, he seemed like a pretty nice guy. He didn't act condescending at all, and was pretty accomodating. I am aware of his reputation as an ego-maniac, but I think that comes from the fact that he isn't quiet about his criticisms. I think his style is very strong and his belief in it is strong, which is just what I would expect. I wouldn't want to learn the method of somebody who doesn't believe in it himself.
The organization in general seems to have a similar attitude: they believe that LT's approach is the best. That is why they practice it. I still haven't met a person in the IWTA who thinks it places them above than anyone else. I'm sure they exist, and my teacher has mentioned some to me. I am fortunate enough to have a good-natured instructor.
Do I think being a part of LT's organization makes me better than all the WC folks? Most definitely not. LT's system seems very strong to me, but I don't have enough experience with any other WC to really be able to make any kind of assertion like that. I have not experienced this bad attitude. I'm not so naive that I think it doesn't exist, but I genuinely hope bad attitudes are the exception, not the norm.

I don't think there is anything wrong in believing that you are involved in something that is the "best" in you own opinion. If you had a choice to change to something else and it is better than what you are doing now why would you stay on to do something thing that is inferior? The problem starts when you start looking down on individuals for what they are doing. You can criticize WT, VT, or any other WC style/system out there all you want but when you start to criticize individuals and their own belief's then that is a problem on one's part. To be truthful I do believe that the form of WC I practice is the best form, and that is my opinion, but I would not put down another for practicing another form, its up to them what they want to learn not me. If they want to learn about the WC I practice then I will inform them about it, not try to convince them of anything.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ravenshaw
The organization in general seems to have a similar attitude: they believe that LT's approach is the best. That is why they practice it. Ravenshaw,

Exactly. If you don't think that you are training in the best system available to you, what are you doing? Who amongst us would go to the time effort and time of training to mediocrity? As James said, "why would you stay on to do something thing that is inferior?" I know I would not, and I doubt anyone else would. It goes against human nature.

I don't think you need to apologize for your organization. The individual may have been out of line, but we're hearing one side of the story. The original scenario that started this thread could have easily been about any organization you may want to name. Change the place and the names and you have a boilerplate for a common experience. Stuff happens.

Peace,

[Vankuen]

Man I thought this thread was a done deal already.

One thing people are not taking into consideration I think. The main point was not to say that LT himself is bad, or that the organization was bad...but rather, does the bad press the people and the organization get actually spawn from fact, or is it just coincidence that my two experiences with the same individual just happened on "bad" days? In a nutshell...that's the point.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Man I thought this thread was a done deal already. You created this monster... ;)

does the bad press the people and the organization get actually spawn from fact, or is it just coincidence that my two experiences with the same individual just happened on "bad" days? Truth can sometimes be a bit more nebulus than we might want to believe. There may be no actual connection between your experience and the "bad press".

My point is that if I meet a person from said organization I would not jump to any conclusions based on press clippings. Although you are correct that it cannot help but color your judgement after an experience such as yours. I'll assume the best, until proven otherwise. Not a big deal either way.

Peace,

[AmanuJRY]

One or two bad apples doesn't spoil the whole bushel.

[iblis73]

Hey Van, I think i've met u before.....i used to train under the LT guy in SA. If you want a VERY rigorous workout, lookup nico lahood-hes the ebmas rep for SA. They meet off of broadway....i think you may have met Nico before? Anyway Nico is a standup guy and a great teacher. I can say this honestly as i no longer train WT. Last time I visited his class he had a lot of "atheletic" types (ie big n strong) in there. His training is 2 hrs a shot 3x a week. If you can move past the preconceptions with ebmas i'd pay him a visit and see what the class is like.

I visited Gilbert Leals class and didnt care for what I saw.

[AndrewS]

Van,

My experiences with Will Parker have been ok, but I've heard problems about him dating back to the eighties. Folks have had personality issues with him though not ethical ones.

If you're in San Antonio, look up Nico Lahood and Mauricio Blake- they're my bros from EBMAS. Cool with their juniors, excellent skills and nice guys. Nico's done significant ring time boxing and is freakin' talented and hard working. Exellent guy, I wish he and Mauricio were people I trained with more, we'd all benefit.

As to the more general WT/LT thing- I think you're seeing a more general martial arts/TMA problem. Some people are in it for ego and image, and without competetive training don't have to be able to back that up it's much easier for the head cases to slide by, and for them to avoid getting ego checks.

Later,

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

Somewhere you (Terence) said other people like the Gracies consider Wing Chun to be a joke. However here someone says Carlson thought Samuel Kwok was very good . . . .

**That's not quite what I said, but to get to your point: First, I don't believe anything I read on that forum or hearsay statements from folks I don't know. Second, it's not uncommon for one co-seminar instructor to say something "nice" about his counterpart (whether they believe it or not). Third, Samuel Kwok is not a "fighter" -- who has he fought? Does he fight as part of his training? Did Carlson see him fight? So how can anyone make a pronouncement of his skill as a fighter? Fourth, if the Gracies thought WCK was so good, how come none of them are practicing it (though they have studied other stand-up methods)? If someone offered to sell you some bottomland would you buy that too?

Terence

[Vankuen]

Not sure if I've met either one of you but thank you for giving me information constructive to alleviating my problem. I look for good going guys to train with and must respect them as people even if their skills exceed mine.

My current training all (when I can get down there) is Phet Phongsavane's on hillcrest and bab****. Mostly a muay thai crowd, but all good guys and they train hard. He's got MMA guys there too, and "traditional" self defense style, and of course pure muay thai. I think Im the only guy affiliated with him with heavy chinese MA background.

I train there because one, I've known Pete for a long time, he can still kick the crap outta me, and he is well respected and very good guy in every sense of the word.

I pretty much go in there and use his other guys as training partners to see how my hands do against the MMA guys and the MT guys. My wrist is still broken, healing very very slowly. So Ive been absent for some time. As soon as it heals up completely where I can take my training back to it's normal levels (as far as contact is concerned) I will look up the embas guys.

Can either of you two give me contact info for the guys on broadway? Thanks.

[iblis73]

Hey Van, u can give me an email at iblis73 at yahoo dot com. Ebmas website has a listing of all instructor contacts.
As regards Parker the only negative you will hear about the guy is personality wise.....I wont go into it on a public board. He is however quite talented and all his skill has been gotten from hard work. He is in my opinion the best of the 4 tgs in the LT org here in the US. He is probably the most athletic. If you cant do ebmas i'd say go with parker. He aint perfect but hey neither am I (so i've been told, personally I think I'm stupendous :D

Also van, if your into mma theres a terrific new school-vasquez academy on rhapsody rd. Hes affiliated with vasquez academy of austin, a hotbed of talented grapplers, boxers and kickboxers......i talked to the owner, ray, and hes super cool and super laid back......definately not a crazy, wacko or egotistical maniac. Plan on seeing some serious talent come outta there.....hes a purple belt under renzo and a judo brown, also has mma and kickboxing classes. I took a months worth of classes and phets, hes a great person and good instructor.