Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

02-27-2001, 07:35 PM

I began training at a shaolin-do school three years ago. My story.

To begin, my sifu is an amzingly talented martial artist and teacher. And his teacher, Masters David and Sharon Soard, are even better. The seminars I have attended by them, for Buddha Fist, 7 star Paying Mantis, and 2 Roads of Shaolin Double Daggers were excellent, and the level of skill demonstrated was what I would expect of a Master.
My sifu trains very traditionally, with chi kung and internal forms in the morning, iron body training ect. Watching him you have no doubt of his skill.
My problem began when I met Grandmaster The'. While amazed at his physique for his age, and the fact that, the year before, he made a statement to the fact that he was interested in learning spanish, and now arrived speaking fluent spanish to our spanish speaking students. I was a little amazed at his rambling, sometimes bizarre religious philosophies, and the fact that he talked so long the class ran over two hours longer than it should. I felt very strongly that something was not right. My subsequent meeting with him accelerated that. Comments on the web fed my doubts. A minor crisis ensued. At my brown belt test, I was about fed up. I had been practicing my full set of some 9 forms, chin na, weapons and tai chi, and Lohan Tan Tuy short forms twice a day, and sparring with a ranked kickboxer to sharpen my sparring skills for that part of the test. The day of the test ( and I understand people are nervous on ranking test days) people who perhaps studied less than I did were sticking spears into the ceiling, smacking each other with short sticks ect. Now these things happen on test days, when people suddenly realize they haven't fully prepared themselves, but they should learn thier lesson by failing the test. I was horrified when these people passed with me into Brown. It devalued all the work I had done. I felt sick.
I began studying Jeet Kun Do with an instructor with a direct lineage to Lee. The training has improved my skills incredibly, and has been an excellent complement to traditional training. But I had worked a great deal to get to Brown Belt, where you start to see more advanced forms and combat theory. So I went back.
So heres the short of it. Regardless of the Grandmasters shadiness, I have recieved an excellent elementary training in basic Kung Fu forms and theory that will help me immeasurably when I move to a larger city with a school with a more reputable lineage. I plan to study until I finish the Tiger Claw forms in the system, and then study them hard to form a basis for extended study at a school elsewhere, at a later date. With all my suspicions about The', I still respect and admire my teacher and his teachers. The's inflating his lineage and training in no way puts dishonor on his students, who have trained in good faith. So, if like me, you live in a city with no traditional school except a shaolin-Do school, it does no harm to study there, the basictraining is comparable to eclectic Kung Fu schools everywhere, and you will at least have an understanding of different Kung Fu styles and combat concepts that will help you immeasurably when you find another Kung Fu school.
With all respect to my Sifu,
Johan

Brad

02-27-2001, 11:59 PM

If the "master" in those vids is representative of high level Shaolin-Do I would say stay very far away from any Shaolin-Do school if you want to learn Kungfu. It is absolutly not kungfu that he is doing. Just a really bad imitation.

qwackdragon

03-04-2001, 06:33 AM

with only 7 yr exp with yang tai chi chuan and shaolin i would no recomend thes master for these styles. his expertiese may be in other areas. :confused:

soy

03-05-2001, 03:42 AM

man the guy in that video is worse than me..

Vankuen

03-11-2001, 09:46 AM

I have studied with a Sin the lineaged system of "kung fu", and even earned a black sash ranking within approxiately two to three months. Now keep in mind that I previously had - oh about 18 years experience in other gung fu systems and what not, so the only thing I had to learn was a different sequence of movements.

I thought that the training was very non-gung fu...it looked more like shotokan karate with a few gung fu movements thrown in. They even had japanese names for some of the drills!!! The only good thing that came out of it was that it wasnt "shaolin do" but rather a break away and thus, I had some real exposure to more actual gung fu through "seminars" by friends of the teachers, which were of real gung fu lineages such as tang lang and Pow chuan.

I have left them since then (even though that was the only "gung fu" in the area) and begun to simply study the gung fu systems that I already knew, but had not mastered. I figured that training in pre-learned things even though my original sifus werent around was better than learning crap that would end up hurting me in the long run with sifus that werent as good as me.

And that is being humble about it. One of the most important things in learning gung fu is respect for the master and faith in the system, without those two things, you will not progress to your desired levels.

Train hard and always question the "unquestionable"

Vankuen

03-11-2001, 09:58 AM

those videos were embarrassing to think that he was a "kung fu brother"

Fu-Pow

03-15-2001, 08:59 AM

Hi ya!!!!

Falcor

03-15-2001, 09:17 AM

You know, if you do see earnest practitioners of a cr@ppy art (good people, but they're just doing cr@ppy stuff), how do you...enlighten them that what they are doing is, well - BAD - without insuling them? They, being good people, are of the opinoin that it is the artist and not the art (and I can't fault them for that attitude), and that everyone does what they like and suits them each follows his own path. Fine, but then again, some things are so blatantly wrong! Dilemma...

...don't think you are, know you are...

illusionfist

03-15-2001, 11:56 AM

I have been faced with this dilemma myself and it was really hard to make the decision i did. I opted not to tell the people what they were practicing was straight up fake. I took a lot of factors into account, the major one was that most of the students were what i would call a "Rec Martial Artist", someone who is not in it for the long haul and they are just kind of dabbling. Later on it all worked out cuz i saw many of them outside of their training atmosphere and every single one of them told me that they had a suspicion, so they left.

I was really torn by the whole thing in the beginning, but it all worked out in the end. If i were presented with the problem again, i would have to look at all the factors before i made my decision. I think that certain situations would necessitate an immediate answer. It is good that most of the people left that one school, because the teacher is now teaching Falun Gong material. I think that in some instances people need to learn on their own. Its part of the path.

Peace :D

Waidan

03-15-2001, 07:33 PM

You don't necessarily need to tell them "your kung fu is very not good." With many people, this will invoke a defensive response, and end any constructive conversation on the subject (of course this isn't true of everyone, I'm generalizing).

Maybe a better approach is to offer to box with them a bit (in a friendly manner obviously). Once they realize they're being uprooted and handled like a chew-toy, they'll probably draw their own conclusion regarding the authenticity of their training.

As a classmate would often say, "It's easier to show then tell."

Falcor

03-15-2001, 10:45 PM

You're right of course, I wouldn't just go up to them and say "your kung fu no good! Let me show you the power of real Chinese pugilism." And most are what I would call dabblers as well, and hopefully when they get exposed to some real stuff they'll wake up and smell the fishes. But this is what happened once; I was at a tournament, and met this really nice, very cool guy. He's wearing the white gi and is a brown belt in Shaolin-Doh. But he's a swell fellow, he even lends his opponents some of his own extra sparring gear when they fall short. Anyway, I see him on the floor and he moves well, and he performs admirably, but WHAT he does is just...cr@ap. Of course I didn't say anything - just offered my good luck and complimented him on a good effort. But inside I wanted to scream "dude, that is not shaolin kung fu, that ain't kung fu!!!" Makes me think of something my teacher told me once: good kung fu done well speaks well of the teacher and the student. Good kung fu done badly speaks ill of both student and teacher. Now, bad kung fu done badly is...well, you get the picture. But bad kung fu done well speaks well of the student but ill of the teacher.

...don't think you are, know you are...

Waidan

03-16-2001, 12:26 AM

Yeah, I get what you're saying. That is pretty tough. I think in a tournament situation, I'd be very hesitant to say anything too (don't want to take the guy out of his game, or ruin his enjoyment). However, I think in a more relaxed setting I'd try to extend some help.

JJMantis

03-16-2001, 05:18 AM

The last issue on KFQ, with Master Chan on the front, in the article about Shaolin-Do. If you didn't, listen to this. The Shaolin-Do people take a big trip to China to visit the long lost southern shaolin temple. They get there and of course, find wushu. duh! It's almost not worth saying. But they go on to say that since the shaolin wushu of China doesn't look like their style, that is the reason why the Chinese wushu is incorrect. Because we all must agree that shaolin-do is pure and unadultered. Amazing. Why don't they compare themselves to the multitudes of Shaolin outside of China? Lineages from the many authentic masters who fled from the cultural revolution?

Radhnoti

03-26-2001, 07:04 PM

This is my first post. I've REALLY enjoyed reading the posts in this forum. Very informative. When I signed up for the forum I was a bit surprised that one of the rules was to not put down any other styles though...especially considering some of the comments in this specific thread. Let me say upfront that I've been studying Shaolin-Do for just the past 6 months...having said this, I feel I can provide a different perspective than what's been offered so far.
First, the Japanese "cover" of the style. My understanding is that our style's second Grandmaster (Ie Chang Ming) was forced to flee into Indonesia during the fall of the Manchu dynasty. Indonesians (at that time...maybe even now, not sure) hated the Chinese and everything Chinese, but not Japan. Grandmaster Ie went "underground" so to speak and adopted the outside appearance of a Japanese style without changing the content of the system. Karate gis were worn, a karate belt ranking system was implemented and the "do" was added to the system name. Upon Shaolin-Do reaching the U.S. some thought was given to switching to kung fu style uniforms, but Grandmaster Sin The' decided to keep the gi as a nod to the history of our style. (I'm sure that the practicality of the gi was also a factor.)
JJMantis mentioned that in the KFQ article the Shaolin-Do students weren't very happy with the Wu Shu forms they see the current Shaolin temple inhabitants perform. The artice goes on to state that two "elderly gentlemen" stand up and perform routines that the visitors are familiar with, and are given a standing ovation.
My understanding is that Shaolin-Do is taught in such a way as to be progressively more difficult. The lower belt ranks have a specific curriculum for advancement and Grandmaster Sin's book states that, "Below brown belt, it is assumed that the student is studying for the purpose of learning some self defense only. At brown belt, it is now assumed that the student is serious about the style as an art form." From first brown you start to get choices about the forms you study for advancement. Most of the black belts I've met seem to have a "specialty" they seem to focus upon. My teacher has learned six of the tiger forms, his teacher seems to be focused upon Tai Chi forms that are mandatory for advancing beyond first black. I hope that johan moves into the realm of brown belt and finds that the "less serious" and unprepared students fall by the wayside as he is shown more and more that piques his interest.
Finally, concerning Grandmaster Sin The', I've been witness to some of his behavior that I found odd. But, I've been operating under the assumption that since he comes from a different culture, religion and base language than me it's probably simply a communication problem. I know that he smiles a lot, and upon passing my two year old son he stopped to lean down and pat his head and say "hi". I've never heard HIM talk about the things he can do, it's always one of his higher ranking black belts. He's been there for all my belt tests so far (how many Grandmasters with as many schools to oversee as Grandmaster Sin could say the same?) and made a point to talk with the students, even asking us if we wanted to go to eat with him at a local restaurant. In short, he seems to be a great person. A friend of mine went to Grandmaster Sin's tournament in Lexington and had the fortune to see the Grandmaster spar. This is a man almost in his sixties, but his movements were supposed to be really impressive. One fellow that tried to sweep his legs was shocked as Grandmaster Sin jumped over his head. Snapping out 3 kicks while jumping through the air, seeming to "glide" forward, sending Master Leonard sailing through the air almost as soon as contact was made. :)
Wish I'd seen it.
I hope I've given some of you a glimpse into the martial art I've been fortunate enough to begin studying. And thanks for plowing through this whole post. :D

-Radhnoti

JJMantis

03-27-2001, 03:23 AM

I will admit I haven't met or seen shaolin-do personally, is there any input from others that have met, trained, or touched hands with them? I just read all I could on the net, and independantly (before coming to this board) have seemed to come to the same conclusion as the others here. One thing they definitly have is a lot of material. IMHO too much material. But if can do 100 forms correct and well, then you must be good, right? That being said, let's get to that history.

Karate uniforms to hide behind during exile - I can believe that. Although most kung fu people I've seen don't wear "uniforms" when training anyway, we tend to wear shoes with black pants and a t-shirt. But why continue to say "katas" with an art that uses the word "shaolin"? Also the words "bo" and "numchaku" (that's how they spelled it) are Japanese. A practicioner of Chinese kung fu would say "stick/cudgelstaff" or "rice flails". Sorry I don't know the Chinese equivalents.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

Su Kong Tai Djin was supposed to be a hermit who just had to stay in hiding in the wilderness. Why, then, did he get a professional photo taken wearing a suit?

The picture of Ie Chang Ming I saw on another site. It is a painting, and its in color. It appears to have been grey scaled to make it appear like an old photo.

Inquisitor

03-27-2001, 04:47 AM

I will say the following for the benefit of those who would spend years of fruitless hard work, dedication, and training learning this so-called style.
Shaolin-Do is a style that is clouded with "legendary" history and unsubstantiated myth. None, other than "Grandmaster" Sin The have ever heard of (let alone met) Ie Chan Ming or Su Kong Tai Djin. All of the forms taught in the system of Shaolin-Do are forms that can be found in books, videos, and other forms of media. Sin The claims that Shaolin-Do is simply the sum of Shaolin Temple kungfu knowledge. However, within his so-called style he teaches non-Shaolin forms and styles, the most prominent of which are Tai Chi Chuan and those styles descended from Wudang (which was Taoist, not Buddhist). And, for the record, the Tai Chi forms taught in Shaolin-Do are not actual, legitimate forms of the family styles. They are the, for lack of a better word, *******ized forms created by the National Sport Association of the Communist Chinese government. The traditional family Tai Chi styles of Wu, Yang, Chen, etc. do not teach the new "wushu" forms as part of their curriculum. Also, Shaolin-Do practitioners are notorious for their inability to see the differences between the way in which traditional stylists perform their forms, and the way in which they perform them. A true master of kungfu is like a great painter. He may not know of all the other painters or their paintings, but if he comes across the work of another great painter, he will recognize it for what it is, great art. If this is true (and trust me when I say that it is), then why is it that those in the legitimate, traditional kungfu community see Shaolin-Do and then say to themselves "This is kungfu? No, it can't be kungfu. It must be Karate or Tae Kwon Do... ."
"Grandmaster" Sin The's prowess in kungfu is also unsubstantiated and has yet to be seen by an unbiased, impartial observer. All instances of his "great skill" that I have heard and seen have all been hearsay; "Well, I wasn't there but my master was there and he told me that it was great!" or "The older students told me that once they saw him and that he was spectacular!" None can vouch for Sin The's actual skill and knowledge, and none can say that his lineage is real or legitimate. Even if for some reason he could not substantiate his lineage, if he had learned "real" kungfu, it would be evident either through his obvious skill or the skill of his better students (which it, sadly, is not).

There is more that could be said, but I'll leave it at this. If you are a practitioner of Shaolin-Do, or are considering learning the so-called "style," do not waste your time. Find a legitimate style and a legitimate master under which to learn. You will be wasting your hard-earned money and will be dedicating your life to something that is fake and will be of no real benefit to yourself.

joedoe

03-27-2001, 04:54 AM

I have never trained or seen Shaolin-Do before either. All I can say is that if you enjoy it and it is working for you, then stick with it. Having seen the clips, I'd have to say that it doesn't look like my cup of tea.

And I'd have to say that the Japanese influence seems to extend further than just the uniforms :).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

Abstract

03-27-2001, 08:42 PM

yo no dis to anyone who practices Shaolin-Do, but after watching those vids, it looks like USSD SYNDROME :rolleyes: to me. I've legit kung fu practiced & seen some serious nonsense, & that was borderline in my eyes...To be honest, what I saw at USSD looked EXACTLY like what I was watching on those clips, that, coupled w/all the Japanese 'Kata this' & pinion that, I had to take my leave...if it works for u, then that's cool....just my 2 cents... ;)

brassmonkey

03-28-2001, 08:31 AM

To be fair I've seen Tai Chi Chuan done equally as bad(well almost) from legitimate lineages.

Oldguy

03-30-2001, 09:24 PM

Hey you guys-
We are all consumers. We chose to stay with our respective teachers/schools because what we were being taught made sense, hopefully. Kungfu comes in a myriad of shapes and sizes, just like its practitioners. Certain styles work better for certain people.
Now this Shaolin-do may very well have roots deep in China. Why should we dispute a claim which we would be hard pressed to prove one way or the other, just because it looks different?
If we disagree with the way a technique is performed, we should be able to explain why. That way we train eyes and mind and allow a good person to save face. If you are friends with someone who does something "strange", take him to task and ask why he does something one way and not another. He might know something you don't. There was an old German, maybe Swiss mystic, Bernhard von Clairvox(sp) who said "Lerne alles, und du wirst spaeter sehen, dass nichts ueberfluessing ist". tr. Learn everything and later you will see that nothing is superfluous.
This makes sense to me. Take care

Royal Dragon

03-31-2001, 12:32 AM

Hello,
I have been perusing this post, and I am wondering if there is a Shaolin do school here in Chicago or not. I've never heard of one here, but I would like to check it out and see for myself what all the hub'bub is.

To be honest with everyone, I am a survivor of Chung Moo, so I am extreamly skeptical of anyone that claims mastery of large amounts of knowledge. The Master I am now under, Got his masters degree in the internal division of our system. although he "knows" the external division, He does not and never did claim to have mastered it. When I discuss the external aspectes of my style with him he often reminds me of his lack of mastery in that division and the fact that his specialty is the internal. This is one of the reasons why I trust him. I really could care less if he knew the whole system to the point of mastery . In fact, the fact that he doesn't, and whole heartedly admits it generates a lot of trust in me. It has allowed me to make contacts with others that DO specialize in the area's he is lacking guilt free. I know, that if I want to master the external division, he can give me the "template" to do so, but It will be up to me to do it through blood, sweat and tears.

Now, this brings me to this, I don't see how Sin The' can possibly be teaching an effective system with so much to teach. Our system, when including ALL the styles that make it up, AND the addition of styles that our 10th century founder learned prior to developing it, TOPS, AT BEST, INCLUDING VARIATIONs OF THE SAME FORMS!! has (And I am REALLY stretching it here) 100 forms. Our Tai Chi has 7 Forms (if you count the little 8 postures form and it's 4 and 8 gate varietys of practing it as 3 seperate forms), our Southern division has 6!, and our Six Step Monkey boxing has only 8 that I've heard of (do the math, you get the idea).

Now, I could, if i wanted too, memorize all those patterns in maybe a year or two (including all the stuff I'd have to make up out of thin air just to have 100 forms), But if My Master, after 30 + years has only mastered the Tai Chi himself, How on earth could I master 100 of them? Let alone 900 as claimed by this Sin The' charcter? HEll, how does he remember them all? How does he keep them pure? I Mean, when you specialize in one aspect of the system, you tend to do all the other stuff with that same flair, right?

Now, that being said, how did Sin The' do it?

I'm sure he can jump and stuff, (so can I) but does that make him special? Does patting a kids head make him a master?

I don't know guys, I'm sure he's not the Cult master my former school followed, But it sure sounds like 8 martial arts taught as one to me.

Kymus

04-01-2001, 06:16 PM

This guy is a fake and a try hard. Looking at the forms, you can easily tell this. I know nothing about the forms done in the videos or if they're "done properly". I have 12 years experience in martial arts. Just by watching someone perform a form, you can tell alot about them and the system. The forms shown used alot of wide open circular repetitive movements. You see this alot in KF movies to make things seem more exaderated. Another thing is that the practitioner performs them very slopily, without much controll. Also, this thing with 900 different forms, gimmie a break, that is BS. No one has ever seen the man perform. That is a little queer. Now, some may say that he has nothing to prove to anyone. I can understand that, but, if he was smart he would do some tornaments or seminars or something to show how good he is so that he will get better recognised and gain a higher student body. The only thing I can recomend for a student of this school is to take a look at some other KF schools and see how things are really done, then look at the Shaolin Do school and ask yourself, which one seems more for real? Sin The' is nothing but a con artist, not martial about him.

-Kymus

~Crosstraining is the key~
-Sifu Rick Tucci
www.pamausa.com (http://www.pamausa.com)

fungku

04-02-2001, 08:21 PM

I am sorry, but the man in those clips has VERY LITTLE skill at all, he is sloppy, not controlled, ... just plain awful?
This is not 'Shaolin' AT ALL.

OK, THE RULE ON NOT PUTTING DOWN ANOTHER STYLE.
I am not insulting this STYLE OF KUNG FU, I am SAYING THIS IS NOT KUNG FU. It may be a martial art, but it is NOT shaolin kung fu, nor does it look related to shaolin kung fu. It looks like a japanese martial art, with Chinese weapons, or 'imitated' Chinese movements.

I have studied Hung Gar kung fu for many years, and have started studyin Wing Chun kung fu. I have also two really close friends who both came from China (exchange students), and we practiced kung fu together, I have learned 2 northern shaolin forms from them. They seem authentic, though there is no way to be sure, but the exchange of kung fu was fun.

Anyway, like I was saying the whole SHaolin-Do thing...

It is NOT and I will repeat NOT kung fu.
(and if the guy in the clip is a seniour student of this Sin The guy, then it does not say a lot about Sin The)

BeiKongHui

04-03-2001, 02:47 PM

Don't make him beat you with his chest muscles!
He is the worlds most dangerous man anyway.

Dangerous Man (http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/032301/weekenderdocs/sin_the23.htm) :D

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

SanHeChuan

04-10-2001, 01:03 AM

you guys couldn't agree on the color of sh!t ;)

some of you say it's kung fu form videos
some of you say it's modern communist wushu
some of you say it's not even kung fu at all
some of you say it looks like karate (where you get that i don't know)
some of are just plain ignorante
some of the people who have been in shaolin-do seem to have been impressed with the martial side.

(there have been other shaolin-do posts by the way
)
so what the fuc!

With so many conflicting opinions i say screw them all and find out for youself, mabe it's not kung fu but that doesn't mean it cant be a good martial art. Mabe it is kung fu and these fuc sticks dont know what there talking about.
looking into the shaolin-do school if you like it best go there and if a more reputable kung fu school becomes avalible to you then try it out too and then after you have gained upper rank in both you can tell us what YOU think.
but tell us about the techniques and skills not about the kinda uniforms they where or wheather they say kata or form because that sh!t dont mean Sh!t

but you will only get out of your training what you put into it :eek:

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

BeiKongHui

04-10-2001, 01:59 AM

uhhhhhhm, the main problem I see is that I've met people who've been black belts (or sashes whatever it is this week)for 10-15 years and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. I've also been told by people that trained at the main headquarters that the GM sells belts to those who can't actually pass their tests.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti

04-10-2001, 06:41 AM

Well, I can discount the "selling belts" idea, I know a guy that failed at LEAST one attempt to pass into brown from my hometown and have heard of several others from other schools.
And as for not being able to fight...well, maybe you're just SO unstoppable that anyone ELSE put next to you looks pathetic? ;)

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor

04-10-2001, 07:46 AM

You say that: "some of you say it's kung fu form videos some of you say it's modern communist wushu some of you say it's not even kung fu at all some of you say it looks like karate (where you get that i don't know)"

Could it not be *all of them*? I don't see why the fact that he teaches "modern communist wushu" somehow excludes him from also teaching "kung fu form [sic] videos." They aren't mutually exclusive. The problem isn't that what he teaches is not combat effective (although I believe so), the problem is that he claims to teach "Shaolin kungfu" when in fact he doesn't. Half of what he teaches is not from Shaolin, and none of it looks *real*. Why is it that even though a Choy Li Fut master and a Northern Shaolin master learn completely different styles, they can look at each other and say "He knows good kungfu" ? Because they both still do *kungfu* which, even across styles, shares several very basic similarities in both combat principle and technique (yes, that was an oversimplification). They may do things differently and study in a different manner, but they recognize martial mastery when they see it.

And then you have to gall to say "go do both and *then* compare." Well, I hate to break it to you, but time and money are limited resources. I am not about to waste my time or my heard-earned money (*gasp* money from a JOB *gasp*) learning some bull**** martial art from a bull**** "grandmaster" who, as far I know, couldn't punch if his life depended on it. I would not want others to do the same. This is the martial arts. I have seen, in person, and sparred with, several high-ranking Shaolin-Do students, including a "1st Dan" Blackbelt (I met them through a mutual friend). From my own *personal* experience, I can say that the Shaolin-Do that I have seen isn't kungfu. The "1st Dan" couldn't even tell me what a basic concept such as fa jing was. It was one of the *lower ranking* students who had "heard of it," and even then he couldn't explain to me what it was. Keep in mind that it is supposed to take "several years" for someone to reach the rank of "1st Dan," which in the system of Shaolin-Do is supposed to denote some form of mastery of at least the basics, if not the "advanced" knowledge. In fact, from what I have seen, Shaolin-Do doesn't even qualify as a martial art. Go watch a class. See how the instructor or a high-ranked student does the forms. For anyone that has had several years of study in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts, what they see is complete and utter bull****. The Seven Star Praying Mantis and Eight Step Praying Mantis branches both do the same basic forms, but do them differently. Do they say "oh, that branch doesn't know *real* Praying Mantis"? No. They say "oh, they do them *differently*, but it's still the same thing." When they see a Shaolin-Do master doing a Praying Mantis form, they cringe. Why is that?
Unfortunately, we live in a different time. In the past, one could have simply walked up to the nearest Shaolin-Do "dojo" and challenged the instructor/master of the school. Now, such a thing would be pretty much impossible (you think any Shaolin-Do "master" would agree to such a fight in the first place? Good luck, heh).

Look, I realize that you weren't really picking sides, so I apologize for reaming you. It just really, really gets to me when I hear about crap like this. You make statements like "find out for yourself" when the proof is lying there, right in front of you. Why ask someone to waste their time and money doing something that is fake just so they can learn that IT IS FAKE? It gives the real martial arts (not just the Chinese Martial Arts, but all of them) a bad name. And, for the record, I believe that in this thread Vankuen professed to learning Shaolin-Do before, as did several others in previous "Shaolin-Do" threads.
Anyway, that is my angry little spiel on the subject of Shaolin-Do. =P

Brad

04-10-2001, 04:31 PM

I have a feeling Shaolin-Do has stolen forms from a lot of different styles including standardized wushu. 24 Taiji?! Defenitely not Shaolin in any way. It was created in the 50's! A lot of us say it looks karate(if it does, it's the most god awful karate I've ever seen) because we probably don't know a whole lot about karate. We're kunfu guys.

Abstract

04-10-2001, 05:37 PM

if you're gonna call people "ignorant" then spell it without the 'e'... ;) ;)

Radhnoti

04-10-2001, 06:14 PM

First I studied aikido. I couldn't mesh with the totally nonaggressive philosophy, and HATED standing with my arms to my side inviting attack. I left. Next I studied with a guy teaching multiple japanese arts, one of which he was recognized as a Shihan (sp?) by a nationwide organization. He taught small-circle jujitsu, judo (not his strong suit), and shorin ryu karate. He had plans to integrate them into his own "eclectic" martial art. I stayed there for a year or more before figuring out it really wasn't for me. He felt there was no need to observe too many of the "useless traditions" his sensei had forced upon him. He still taught kata, but he felt sparring and tournament competition was more important.
Now, I'm in Shaolin-Do. I'm working harder than I had to in any martial art I ever studied before (there are some more that I studied back in college, but I'll skip the boring story about each of them). We're taught conditioning techniques. (Ever do push-ups on your wrists? Forearm toughening drills? Finger tip pushups? We do.) We study kata and our teacher goes into great detail about the possible applications of each movement within the kata, stressing that techniques can and must be modified slightly in real life situations. We observe all courtesies, extending them even to visitors from other styles. Now, onto (I believe, but forgive me if I misrepresent you) Inquisitor's primary problems with Shaolin-Do. Grandmaster Sin claims to be the sole and direct inheritor of grandmaster status from the Shaolin temple. I have no way to verify OR deny this, neither does anyone else. His supporters would say, "Look at all he knows and teaches! Anyone who says he isn't is just jealous." His detractors would say, "Isn't it convenient that nothing and no one exists to dispute or prove your claim." This seems to me to be a pointless arguement for BOTH sides. Personally, I could care less whether his system is the "pure" one handed down from "The Temple". It has within it all the elements that I require. I DO believe him, but it's based solely upon my interactions with him and some of his higher ranked students, no hard facts. The other problem folks seem to have regarding Shaolin-Do runs along the lines of, "That ain't Kung-Fu man!" I would, respectfully, point out that kung-fu is different things to different folks. It's ridiculous for someone from a specific style to say, "That style is wrong, because it's not like mine." In addition, Grandmaster Sin's book goes into great detail about why Shaolin-Do isn't kung-fu... A Cantonese term which refers to the effort a person makes when he devotes himself to some task. They seem to prefer the Mandarin phrases Shaolin Ch'uan-fa (Ch'uan-fa meaning, "the way of the fist") or Shaolin Wu kung (wu kung being an expression that denotes any and all types of martial endeavor performed in a skillful and dedicated manner). But, instead of fretting about what category Shaolin-Do is placed within, it was decided that "generic" terms were unimportant. Shaolin-Do has since been referred to as both Kung-Fu and even karate with no protestation from any of the high ranking students or Grandmaster. So, maybe that'll make you feel better...you're right, it ain't kung-fu! ;)
In closing, (finally, eh? :rolleyes: ) I'd like to apologize for having to be the one to present the "other side" of this argument. I'm sure that someone with more experience in the system would do a better job...maybe they're just tired of this circular argument and have let it go. Or maybe they're practicing their forms the way we all should be. heh

-Radhnoti

SanHeChuan

04-10-2001, 07:56 PM

ok, but if they got it from videos wouldn't you still be able to reconize the forms as at least bad kung-fu.

so i was saying that people saying that it isn't even kung-fu, and people that are saying thats it's video kungfu are contradicting each other.

i don't think that he should wast his time with crap either but i believe in using personal experiance rather than what some internet jocky says to form your own opions :D

whether fooled or not alot of people seem to like shaolin-do and some of them come from other martial arts including kung-fu styles,so maybe doing "internet research" isn't going to give you the real story.

i'm not trying to defend shaolin-do, i'm just saying personal experience is best, or something.
i think i've confused myself :D j/k

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

BeiKongHui

04-10-2001, 08:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well, I can discount the "selling belts" idea, I know a guy that failed at LEAST one attempt to pass into brown from my hometown and have heard of several others from other schools.
And as for not being able to fight...well, maybe you're just SO unstoppable that anyone ELSE put next to you looks pathetic? [/quote]

Yeah, everyone who "studies" shaolin-No's teacher is "different". No, I'm no tougher than anyone else I just study legitimate martial arts-Wing Chun & BJJ-in which actual fighting basics are taught as opposed to getting a belt for memorizing a "kata". Sorry, buddy, I've seen Sin The' & the boys here at the Sin The' gym (this is where this travesty all got started)I wasn't impressed nor where any of my Sihings who pounded many SD people into the ground back in the 70's & 80's when The' tried (unsuccessfully) to send his black belts around to other schools to start fights.
I'm no Kung Fu expert but I & most everyone else here know more than you...save you time & money and move on to a legit art.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

BeiKongHui

04-10-2001, 08:27 PM

Just for your piece of mind I have seen it all first hand not through the internet. If I wanted to subject myself to it again I could walk out my door and walk about 1/8th of a mile to the nearest Shaolin-Do McDojo.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti

04-11-2001, 12:14 AM

BeiKongHui, thanks for your "expert" opinion. I, too, live in KY and I agree to disagree with you. And just so no one thinks my comment that you quoted was rude, I'll point out that the "you're so awesome" comment WAS followed by a smiley face...in this case I meant it as humor, not mockery.

-Radhnoti

ope

04-11-2001, 03:21 AM

Push ups on your fingers we do this as well push ups on your wrist (crane push ups) all these things should be basic training i would hope most schools train using these methods..

BeiKongHui

04-11-2001, 02:50 PM

Where are you in Kentucky? There are plenty of more legitimate Kung Fu schools in this state. If your going to invest the blood, tears & $$$ into training you should seek out a style worthy of your dedication. At the very least I would urge you to do some heave research into the "katas" you are being taught and seek out the advice of more experienced non shaolin-no martial artists who will tell you how it is. Sorry, man I just see too many people who've been through the Shaolin-No system & come out totally disillusioned with the entire world of martial arts because they saw the truth too late.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti

04-13-2001, 05:57 AM

Ope, I hope that most traditional schools do as well...my point was that we are training hard, and that's what it's all about, no?
BeiKongHui, I'll take your advice on comparing the forms I learn to those similar but taught in other styles. My teacher encourages us to learn whatever we can, where ever we can so I see no conflict of interest there. Right now, I'm reading the book Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming co-authored about Hsing Yi Chuan as a sort of warm-up for what I'm supposed to learn later.

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor

04-14-2001, 08:47 AM

Radhnoti:

One of the basic points of my argument against Sin The was that his lineage *couldn't* be substantiated. It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."? I then followed this argument up with the next one: Even were his lineage to be unsubstantiated, *the skill would speak for itself*. From what I and others have seen, along with what is easily accessible on the Internet ("masters" doing forms, two man drills, etc.), that is clearly *not the case*.
Also, the basis of my argument for his "vast knowledge" was that all of his knowledge is FAKE. The fact that he claims to have all this knowledge and the FACT that it can be proven that this knowledge is either a) gotten from other materials, b) inconsistent with traditional Shaolin kungfu (and yes, this is a valid argument, as even with the dozens of "Shaolin" styles, they all share inherent characteristics that are not found in Shaolin-Do) or, c) *NOT EVEN FROM HIS CLAIMED LINEAGE*. He claims to know the sum all knowledge of Shaolin Temple kungfu. He has had no other sifu other than Ie Chang Ming. Well, if that is the case, and his lineage is to be believed, why the hell does he teach *NON-SHAOLIN* kungfu? He teaches Tai Chi Chuan, which is TAOIST. Not only that, but the Tai Chi Chuan he teaches is not even consistent with the traditional styles! He teaches the widely known "conglomerated" forms created by the Communist Chinese government! If anything, that should say something about his other knowledge that is supposedly descended from the Shaolin Temple, and whether or not that information is actually legitimate. Strangely enough, according to you, one must have "advanced training" in Tai Chi Chuan before one can go into the higher ranks... Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?
As for the argument that "we don't call it kungfu, so it isn't kungfu, so there!"; well, I have to tell you something that you might not like: IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE KUNGFU. The term kungfu has changed over time to mean the Chinese Martial Arts. As the Shaolin Temple was located in China, the martial arts that was taught/developed/systematized/etc. there was Chinese in origin. The simple fact of the matter is that what Sin The claims to teach is KUNGFU. It is supposed to be Chinese Martial Arts from China. I don't care if it lasted two generations outside of China, it is still Chinese in origin and, in fact, he claims that it is still Chinese in substance as well. Supposedly, there have been no changes to the martial information from when Su Kong Tai Djin was "abbot of Shaolin Temple" down to Sin The. If we are to take his claims seriously, then yes, what he knows is in fact kungfu. Karate, on the other hand, is a specific style that has its origins on the island of Okinawa (although there are substyles of Karate-do that "started" on the main island of Nippon). Obviously, kungfu from the Shaolin Temple is not a part of Karate (although Karate has some roots from certain styles of kungfu). Your "superiors" may not protest that Shaolin-Do is called karate, but that is not the point. What is being debated is whether or not Shaolin-Do is kungfu, or even has its roots in kungfu. And, for the record, I know of many, many kungfu practitioners who would take offense if their chosen martial art were to be referred to as "karate."
Your other argument was that "Hey, we work hard and we try, and that is all that really matters anyway, right?" is ludicrous. Just because you work hard at it doesn't mean it actually works, that it is legitimate, or that it "makes everything okay." Take a good long look at Chung Moo Doe. Are you going to tell me that the people who practiced it didn't work hard or didn't do lots of pushups/situps/etc.? The fact that they put a lot of effort into Chung Moo Doe did not change the fact that it is fake, not useful, inapplicable, and does not qualify as a martial art. That also brings me to another point: the whole idea of "bashing" Shaolin-Do is to prevent other people from starting or continuing their "education" in it. I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money. If you wish to continue learning Shaolin-Do, then you should at least know that much. LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*.

SanHeChuan:

For starters, you need to refer back to my original reply to your post about how we are all supposedly "contradicting" each other. Secondly, kungfu learned from videos *does not qualify as actualy kungfu*. Also, certain things cannot and should not rely solely on personal experience. Yes, personal experience can be a good teacher (although most of the time it isn't anyway). However, do you want to personally find out about how people can scam you for your entire life's savings? Or, better yet, do you want to learn personally about how jumping out of a plane two miles aboveground will kill you? Hey, why don't you go personally learn how shooting someone is a bad thing? Give me a break. Yes, there are a lot of ignorant statements and BS made on the internet; that does not exclude the possibility that there are those of us who do know what we are talking about.

UberShaman

04-14-2001, 05:00 PM

What gets me is this guy Sin The used to teach Karate . He must be the best martial artist in the world The sole inheritor of the shaolin system over 900 forms, 33 flavors of ice cream and he he still had time to learn Karate!! I wonder why he doesnt mention this in his book?
"would you like fries with that black belt sir?"

Brad

04-14-2001, 10:45 PM

Radhnoti,

Please don't take everything we say as personal attacks or hatered towards yourself. We don't doubt that you put a lot of effort into what you do. But if you were to put as much effort into a legitimate style with a good teacher you would probably be surprised by how much better you become. The sooner you leave Shaolin Do the better off you'll be.

Radhnoti

04-16-2001, 05:40 PM

First off, Inquisitor let me compliment you upon an extremely appropriate name. :)

" LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*."
Neat bit of wordplay there. So, it's impossible that anyone would defend Shaolin-Do without a "psychological process" coming into play? Tell you what, you assume that I'm coming into this with an open mind and I'll assume that you're listening to what I have to say. We may both be fooling ourselves, but the alternative is that this is just an online diary in which we are only writing for ourselves. Right?

"Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."?"
It seems to me that this would be quite insulting to Grandmaster Sin and quite presumptive of anyone else. I've read other articles on these boards with members saying that Grandmaster Sin's brother is "the real deal"...and they both learned from Grandmaster Ie.

"It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. " The last issue of Kungfu Qigong mentions that Grandmaster Sin was welcomed by Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong, stating that he has been "a friend...for many years".
I'm fairly new to CMA, so, I can't speak knowledgably about the skill of my instructors vs. the skill of other masters. I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates.

As for the "yeah, but does it work?" argument. I have met an instructor in a nearby city who works as "security" at a local bar. The bar was KNOWN for the fights that erupted regularly. A rough place. He has since greatly improved the bar's reputation for safety. Yes, he did have to fight. And, yes, it did work. He's about 5'10'' and weighs about 165 lbs. and subdued players for the college football team weighing 300+. You can say, "maybe he got lucky" or "yeah, but maybe none of them could fight" or "imagine what he could have done with a REAL art!" if you want, but it sounds like sour grapes to me.

"I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money." What I know for "a fact" is that I'm improving myself and I see my fellow students doing the same. Shaolin-Do has been all it claimed to be for me. I am learning an "actual" martial art. And I don't feel cheated at all.

UberShaman, I believe that Grandmaster Sin teaching "karate" goes back to the fact that he doesn't really care how his system is classified.

Brad, thanks for the good word. None of you know ME and I don't claim to know any of you. So, really there's no way for me to take anything said personally. I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. It would have been much easier for me (still would be, in fact) to just ignore this thread. Maybe I'll know better next time. :D

-Radhnoti

BeiKongHui

04-16-2001, 07:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. [/quote]

That would be because they can't contradict the statements made here and it's much easier to ignore the truth for some people.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

dragon797

04-17-2001, 12:40 AM

To correct a comment about Sin The's brother, Hiang The.

Hiang The learned material not only from his grandfather, Ie Chang Ming (who Sin still strangely does not acknowledge as his grandfather) but from three other of Ie's peers, one of whom taught Hiang his complete Tai Peng (Bird) system. Ie's specialty was the internal.

To BeiKongHui:
I am sure you have met or had bad experiences with some Shaolin-Do people over the years, especially if you were involved with John Ng, John Drefrense, and Mark Burgher. Many of them can be extremely arrogant. But don't lump everyone into his group or dismiss the skills of others who have studied the material from Ie and his contemporaries. Sin The is not the only source, just the main problem.
n

BeiKongHui

04-17-2001, 04:55 AM

I've only seen Hiang in action on old video tapes and he was ok. The 2 people I know that trained under him appear to have the same skill as your average Shaolin-Do black belts.

However, my question is if there is not some level of scam involved why Then don't they just call it The' Family Fist or something and tell the truth about it's origins? Does Sin The have so little faith in his art?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti

04-17-2001, 05:50 AM

Apologies, Dragon 797 if you're a student of Master Hiang's, no disrespect was intended. The black belt I talked to about Master Hiang only said, "We all learned a lot from Hiang The' before he left, it's a family squabble and we (meaning the senior students I assume) try not to get involved." I'd also read or heard somewhere that he had stayed in Indonesia to continue studying with local masters before coming to the U.S. under his brother as an instructor in Shaolin-Do. Everyone in Shaolin-Do that knows him or OF him speaks of him with high regard...except Grandmaster Sin who speaks of him not at all.
BeiKongHui, it's interesting how everyone assumes they have cornered the market on "the truth". ;)

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor

04-17-2001, 06:41 AM

Thanks for the compliment on my UserName. I felt it was appropriate. =) Now, on to the reply:

================================
First off, Inquisitor let me compliment you upon an extremely appropriate name.
" LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*."
Neat bit of wordplay there. So, it's impossible that anyone would defend Shaolin-Do without a "psychological process" coming into play? Tell you what, you assume that I'm coming into this with an open mind and I'll assume that you're listening to what I have to say. We may both be fooling ourselves, but the alternative is that this is just an online diary in which we are only writing for ourselves. Right?
--------------------

The point I was trying to make when I commented on certain psychological processes was that it is near-impossible for me to change your mind using any sort of ethos, logos, or pathos. I was not making any sort of comment about your defending Shaolin-Do...

--------------------
"Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."?"
It seems to me that this would be quite insulting to Grandmaster Sin and quite presumptive of anyone else. I've read other articles on these boards with members saying that Grandmaster Sin's brother is "the real deal"...and they both learned from Grandmaster Ie.
--------------------

Actually, now that you mention it, it was intended to be quite insulting to "Grandmaster" Sin. To put it simply, I have no respect for the man (for reasons that you can probably guess). As for the comments about Sin's brother: if memory serves me correct, those statements were insinuating that Sin The is misrepresenting himself. Apparently Sin The and his brother learned an actual legitimate style of kungfu from their family, but Sin The decided to take that small knowledge and suddenly become the "Grandmaster Inheritor of All Shaolin Styles." As I have no information which cannot prove nor disprove those accusations, I will refrain from saying anything more about them. You still have yet to give me any sort of proof that would discredit the simple fact that no one would dare vouch for the skill of your vaunted "Grandmaster."

--------------------
"It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. " The last issue of Kungfu Qigong mentions that Grandmaster Sin was welcomed by Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong, stating that he has been "a friend...for many years".
I'm fairly new to CMA, so, I can't speak knowledgably about the skill of my instructors vs. the skill of other masters. I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates.
--------------------

I have never heard of this "Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong"... Also, I would not accept your evidenced based on the simple fact that Kungfu-Qigong magazine is paid to publish certain articles (and I am 100% sure that they were either paid to publish that article or the information from that article came from Shaolin-Do). Oftentimes, they write articles which contain false or unverified information simply because they were paid to. This is not only in reference to Shaolin-Do. I, along with several others on these boards I am sure, have my beef with the credibility of anything published in both Kungfu-Qigong and Inside Kungfu.
LoL also, thank you for pointing out something for me. First, you said that you have very little experience in the CMA. You then follow up that statement by declaring "I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates." If you have very little knowledge in kungfu, and say yourself that you cannot really compare the differences between legitimate masters and your own instructors, what suddenly gives you the ability to compare the quality of the internet videos (which were not my only source of evidence) *and* the skill level of your teacher performing "higher level tigher forms." It may be "awe inspiring" for you, but to those who have been studying the traditional Chinese Martial Arts for several years, it looks like crap.

--------------------
As for the "yeah, but does it work?" argument. I have met an instructor in a nearby city who works as "security" at a local bar. The bar was KNOWN for the fights that erupted regularly. A rough place. He has since greatly improved the bar's reputation for safety. Yes, he did have to fight. And, yes, it did work. He's about 5'10'' and weighs about 165 lbs. and subdued players for the college football team weighing 300+. You can say, "maybe he got lucky" or "yeah, but maybe none of them could fight" or "imagine what he could have done with a REAL art!" if you want, but it sounds like sour grapes to me.
--------------------

One word: hearsay. Actually, make that two: unsubstantiated. Give me documented proof, or at least a widely-known and recognized story (i.e. the way of Wong Shun Leung and his fights in HK), of the skill of Shaolin-Do practitioners. I can say for a fact that there is none of the latter, and I have yet to see any of the former.

-------------------
"I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money." What I know for "a fact" is that I'm improving myself and I see my fellow students doing the same. Shaolin-Do has been all it claimed to be for me. I am learning an "actual" martial art. And I don't feel cheated at all.
--------------------

Again, I am forced to use your own words against you. I thought you had very little knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts? How do you know that you and your fellow students are in fact "improving"? The people who practiced Chung Moo Doe, the people who studied at their local McDojo, they all felt like they were "improving." Does that actually mean that they were learning the actual art of pugilism, or that they are being spoon-fed a bunch of BS? Give me a break. So far you have done nothing but show that Shaolin-Do does not have any sort of information that can disprove ANY of the arguments which prove that it is a fraudulent martial art.

--------------------
UberShaman, I believe that Grandmaster Sin teaching "karate" goes back to the fact that he doesn't really care how his system is classified.

Brad, thanks for the good word. None of you know ME and I don't claim to know any of you. So, really there's no way for me to take anything said personally. I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. It would have been much easier for me (still would be, in fact) to just ignore this thread. Maybe I'll know better next time.

-Radhnoti
==============================

None involved in Shaolin-Do "bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists" because they have no information to the contrary. Look, I am not doing this out of any sort of spite for you or most of those involved with Shaolin-Do (note I say most, not all). As I have said before, this is for the benefit of those who have yet to make up their minds or have doubts about Shaolin-Do and simply need someone to tell them that it's okay to look elsewhere. I'm sorry that I can't get you to realize that Shaolin-Do is, in reality, a fake martial art.

dragon797

04-17-2001, 03:39 PM

*****************************
However, my question is if there is not some level of scam involved why Then don't they just call it The' Family Fist or something and tell the truth about it's origins?
********************************

Ie Chang Ming was the only family member. The other teachers were not related to Hiang. All of them immigrated to Indonesia from China where they had learned material from a variety of sources, some as a group and some individually. Those are the facts and Hiang has never presented them as anything else.t

Radhnoti

04-17-2001, 06:22 PM

dragon797 as one of the original teachers of Shaolin-Do I doubt you'll be able to distance Master Hiang from Grandmaster Sin. His association with the art lasted...what?...decades? He certainly never stepped forward and told any of Grandmaster Sin's students that the historical account they'd been given was false. Many senior students seem to hope that someday the brothers will patch things up and Master Hiang will return to Shaolin-Do.
Inquisitor, I feel like we're "point sparring" with these quotations...but such is the nature of message boards I suppose.
"The point I was trying to make when I commented on certain psychological processes was that it is near-impossible for me to change your mind using any sort of ethos, logos, or pathos. I was not making any sort of comment about your defending Shaolin-Do..."
You were saying that it's impossible to change my mind about Shaolin-Do because of "psychological processes". I was saying that you should probably drop the psycho-babble and save it for your patients. :rolleyes:
"As I have no information which cannot prove nor disprove those accusations, I will refrain from saying anything more about them. You still have yet to give me any sort of proof that would discredit the simple fact that no one would dare vouch for the skill of your vaunted Grandmaster."
I also have no information to prove or disprove, no one does. That's the problem with the shadowy history of the Shaolin Temples. No one vouches for Grandmaster Sin's skill, but I've yet to hear of a "master" from another style stepping forward to discredit him.
" If you have very little knowledge in kungfu, and say yourself that you cannot really compare the differences between legitimate masters and your own instructors, what suddenly gives you the ability to compare the quality of the internet videos (which were not my only source of evidence) *and* the skill level of your teacher performing "higher level tigher forms." It may be "awe inspiring" for you, but to those who have been studying the traditional Chinese Martial Arts for several years, it looks like crap."
What I was saying I COULD speak of was the quality of internet videos in general. Even with a cable modem RealPlayer videos have been compressed and seem choppy. I won't pretend experience enough to judge CMA forms, I can only offer what I feel. It impresses the hell out of me.
"One word: hearsay. Actually, make that two: unsubstantiated."
Unless someone has seen something themselves it's unsubstantiated and hearsay. The existance of China for me is hearsay, I've never been there. I've never met a Hung Gar student or instructor, does that make the effective reputation of that art form untrue? All we have to judge things we've not seen by is the word of others. I used to hear, "Don't go there. Too dangerous." when reference to the bar was made. Now I hear, "It's a nice place, they've really cleaned it up."
Yes, it may be hearsay but that doesn't make it not so.
"I thought you had very little knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts? How do you know that you and your fellow students are in fact "improving"? ...Give me a break. So far you have done nothing but show that Shaolin-Do does not have any sort of information that can disprove ANY of the arguments which prove that it is a fraudulent martial art."
No, so far YOU have yet to prove Shaolin-Do is a fraudulent martial art. :D Improvement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I can do more push-ups...so I assume my upper body strength is improving. People that I've sparred in karate (I've been in a few other martial arts previously) that used to be able to beat me easily now say I'm tougher to handle. Long attempts to keep horsestance have strengthened my legs, helping me with my work in which I lift things regularly. I feel increased confidence in myself and my wife says I seem happier. All in all I don't think anyone could say Shaolin-Do hasn't improved me.
"I'm sorry that I can't get you to realize that Shaolin-Do is, in reality, a fake martial art."
And I'm sorry that I can't get you to see Shaolin-Do is a fine art for me, and probably for many others.

-Radhnoti

Johnny Hot Shot

04-17-2001, 09:52 PM

hey Brad is this guy in your videos from USSD "Kung- fu" ?

Brad

04-17-2001, 10:56 PM

All I know is the guy from those vids I posted is a 7 degree blackbelt in Shaolin-Do certified by Sin The(according to the website). He's located in Tennessee.

I think I'm going to post a new thread and list links to sites with video's of chinese martial arts just so anyone who wants to can compare and contrast.

Falcor

04-17-2001, 11:05 PM

Well, I guess if Shaolin-do makes you happy, despite what everyone says and despite the evidence that is in plain view, then I guess we (the general CMA community) really have nothing more to say. But consider this:

I may be an excellent guitar player. I may have learned it on my own, or learned it from a known teacher. And what I play may not exactly be jazz or blues, or rock or such, but what the hey, it makes me happy and that's that. Right? Now, if I were to open up a guitar school saying that I will teach you to play the guitar and simply that, witout making claims as to what particular style of guitar playing I teach, then I am being truthful and honest and I may actually make a good teacher. But, on the other hand, if I make claims to have studied jazz and blues from the greats, and that what I teach is the jazz and blues of BB King and Stevie Ray Vaughn and such, when my playing style i different from those of the greats and anyone who may have learned from them for real, then I am lying. I may still end up teaching you to play the guitar decently, but what I am claiming is a lie. If you don't care and you just wanna learn to play, well alrighty then. But if you wanna learn the particul;ar styles of King or Vaughn, legitimately tranmistted by them, then what I teach you will be false and you should look for someone else. It's the same thing with martial arts.

...don't think you are, know you are...

Falcor

04-17-2001, 11:09 PM

Another thought struck me. I checked out all the Shaolin-Do sites and addresses of schools and such, and it seems that they are all located in areas of the country with a low Asian population density. Places where the general public would have been l;ess exposed to legitimate CMA and thus would not have a standard to compare with. Interesting, isn't it?

By the way, are there any Shaolin-Do schools in places like NY, LA, or SF, or similar locations?

...don't think you are, know you are...

Radhnoti

04-17-2001, 11:50 PM

I really liked your first post Falcor. Great analogy. I suppose that if someone watched some movie and they KNEW somehow that what they were watching was a specific style of Kung Fu...and that's what they wanted to study, to get something different might be a let down. For me, I just wanted a well-rounded, effective martial art with a serious and traditional TONE. Meaning emphasis on courtesy, forms, discipline and application. Had Shaolin-Do been presented to me as a brand new fighting discipline I doubt I'd have cared after meeting my instructor and sitting in on a few of the classes. There is a basic flaw to your analogy however. There's documentation and recordings of the blues and jazz greats, when it comes to the Shaolin temples there's only supposition and word of mouth. You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. Nor do I have proof that it is. I think it's a great system (from what I've seen, I've only studied about 8 months now), and you'll note that MOST those who claimed to have studied it for any length of time say it's a fine style.
Maybe we can get dragon797 to bring Master Hiang onto the boards and settle the whole issue?
It seems to me that if he and his brother had a falling out, he WOULD be willing to discredit his brother with some sort of overwhelming evidence if any exists? :)
Hey, Inquisitor...when you rip into me next, you think you could open another thread to do it in? This is getting a bit long. ;)

-Radhnoti

Brad

04-18-2001, 04:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. [/quote]

Shaolin-Do teaches Taiji 24. This form was created in 1956 outside of the Shaolin Temple. Also Sai and Nunchucku(sp?) are Japanese weapons. Yang style Taiji is a family style created away from the temple also. Same goes for the other Taiji family styles. Also I would think if these styles were learned legitamately there would be some record or knowledge of Sin The or someone from his lineage among the Chen or Yang family. To tell the truth, I don't think any respected teachers have spoken out against Sin The because they either don't know about him, or they don't care as long as he stays away from them.

Inquisitor

04-18-2001, 08:38 AM

Thank you for proving my point. I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes.
What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed. Sin The is a fraud for all the reasons that I and others have mentioned. I am not going to waste my time reiterating myself when it is painfully visible to me that you have no intention of even listening to a word of it. If you had, then you would have never said something as utterly ludicrous as "No, so far YOU have yet to prove Shaolin-Do is a fraudulent martial art." The problems with your own self-styled "successful" defense against all of my arguments are that: A) You chose your battles. You ignored several of my key arguments such as the fact that Sin The teaches forms/styles outside of that which he claims knowledge of. Also, you ignored the fact that not only does Sin The teach things outside of his supposed system, but that he teaches things that are not even a part of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts. I could go on about other arguments, but I'd rather not. And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations (go ask any professor that teaches logic if that sort of rebuttal holds any sort of water). My argument was that HIS LINEAGE IS FAKE. I have already given my proof as to why I believe it to be so. Now it is your job to disprove me, or provide evidence to show that his lineage is in fact legitimate. Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently.

Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this. The proof is rampant throughout this entire thread that Sin The is a fake. If you wish to ignore the truth, then do so at your own folly.

Caveat Emptor

Radhnoti

04-18-2001, 04:27 PM

Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation. ;)
"And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do. Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
"What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
:rolleyes: Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses. All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
"I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
"Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights. ;)
"Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
Wow! We agree on something. :D

-Radhnoti

Anarcho

04-18-2001, 06:06 PM

Let me start by saying that I have no emotional commitment to Shaolin-Do being fake or genuine. I have looked at the website with the dog guy on it, and heard about the 984.713 forms involved, the weird Japanese stylings etc. all of which leads me to believe that it's probably bollocks...But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, it doesn't worry me.

The question I have, though, is about how Shaolin-Do is seen by the rest of the CMA community. Several styles have more or less bitter political situations (Wing Chun, Northern Mantis, etc.), but noone seems to really doubt the skill of their rivals, just claims about being the sole inheritor of the system and that kind of thing. So, if Shaolin-Do is genuine, why do you think that it occupies this special position? Only the people who practice it seem to support its effectiveness, a situation which I've never encountered before except with really, really dodgy frauds. Anyway, I'd be interested in responses from any Shaolin-Do students.

BeiKongHui

04-18-2001, 09:01 PM

How many of you Shaolin Do guys teachers will let you train at other places while doing Shaolin Do?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

dragon797

04-18-2001, 10:27 PM

Radhnoti: I am not a student of either man. I recently restored a friendship from my old days in school in Lexington that gives me an accurate account of events concerning Hiang The. I am here only to correct misinformation about Hiang, not get embroiled in this impossibly ridiculous debate that rears its ugly head on the internet from time to time.

Actually, Hiang does not speak poorly of his brother. He just wants to build his own group and establish its own identity based solely on the material he was taught. Most of the history and claims that generate the negative comments about Shaolin-do took their altered shape after the two brothers split around 1982. Before then, any silence on Hiang's part can be attributed to something called respect for the family's oldest brother, a very strong principle in Chinese culture.

Also, it's good to hear that some of those who have been around since the early days still have a positive opinion of Hiang. There are many good people from back then. It's sad that events turned out the way they did and that people had to choose between one brother or the other.
b

dragon797

04-18-2001, 10:31 PM

To BeiKongHui:
Concerning training in other styles: Hiang always told his students that if they could find a better martial arts practice, to let him know because he would send his kids there. I believe his children are still with him at the YMCA. (Sorry, I couldn't resist) If a student can keep up with 10 separate long forms per each rank (Black Belt levels), spar and attend classes regularly, then Hiang said they could always study whatever else they wanted. I say why go somewhere else when you haven't even learned everything one system has to offer? That's a personal choice.

From my own experience, I find that sparring with people from other groups usually turns into trouble. If you are getting the best of them, they resort with cheap shots and with more than the agreed on contact. Defending yourself on the street is one thing, ANYTHING goes, but I'm past walking around with loose teeth and black eyes from "friendly" sparring with strangers. If you're in Lexington, try a pick-up basketball game at UK or Douglas Park some Sunday. Once you start throwing it down on a guy, half the time he'll start to foul you, then there will be an argument, and then a fight. I'll just rent a gym and play with my buds.

Radhnoti

04-18-2001, 11:26 PM

Anarcho, as far as I can tell (I've been wrong before though) MOST don't question Shaolin-Do's effectiveness, just the lineage. It might also be said that SINCE the lineage is so questioned some question the effectiveness. Several posters who weren't/aren't Grandmaster Sin's students have commented that they feel Shaolin-Do is an effective martial art in this thread.
BeiKongHui, my instructor believes much as dragon797 has said Master Hiang does. He and I have attended seminars given by local instructors from other styles. My teacher's teacher is another story entirely. I was once told of a fellow he had taught into the lower black belts who went to another SHAOLIN-DO instructor. He refuses to speak of him or acknowledge that he exists. "He is dead to me.", is a phrase reported to have come from his mouth. So, I suppose that it depends upon the teacher.
dragon797, I also feel it is a sad situation. The respectful tone used when anyone speaks of Master Hiang seems to indicate that he is a fine person as well as an excellent martial artist and teacher.

-Radhnoti

Talon

04-19-2001, 06:41 PM

Why didn't Master Hiang ever say anything before? Nobody knows for sure I don't think. The fact is, he came over to this country separately
from his brother and taught on his own for quite a while. They teamed up for reasons I'm not sure on, but on the surface it would look to be a
perfect situation. Two high ranking brothers teaching an art together. Maybe they thought they had a better chance of success working
together. However, Master Hiang never submitted himself to Sin's version of the story and it can be assumed he didn't like what Sin was doing so that is why they split. Sin's storytelling has grown leaps and bounds over the years, and the more it has grown, the more Master Hiang has distanced himself from his brother. Master Hiang has never made extraordinary claims about himself or the art he teaches. He is very upfront about what he knows and what he doesn't and who he learned what from. As to someone else's comment earlier, the only students that would ever want Sin and Hiang to get back together are maybe Sin's students. I'm not even sure on that.
Hiang's students only view Sin with the same questions as does the rest of the martial arts community. Maybe even worse. Sin is an
embarrasment to their art and they will probably never be able to completely distance themselves from him. As to what Master Hiang thinks, from what I'm told he rarely says a lot on the subject. This is due to lots of reasons I'm sure. He wants to concentrate on his own
stuff, he is embarrassed by the whole thing, and maybe a lingering sense of respect to his older brother.
To Bei Kong Hiu (I know that's misspelled, sorry), I'm sure your teachers are reputable and are well known masters in their own right. Just out of curiousity, and I do mean that sincerely, other than the wing chun, the other style of kung fu taught at your school is simply titled "Chinese Martial Arts". What type of kung fu is that and what are it's origins?

BeiKongHui

04-20-2001, 12:59 AM

I have always heard that Hiang is on the level but I've never personally met him. I do know his students speak highly of him and if what you say is true it is a tragedy he has been victimized as such by his brother.
Ah, you must have a phone book ;)
The owner of the school has trained in several different styles of Kung Fu and several other martial arts and is an NHB competitor. I do not train under him so I really can't give your more specifics. Go in & talk to him he's a cool guy! I do know that they call the class chinese combatives and it seems to work pretty well because he's taken many multiple black belts, etc who couldn't fight and taught them how. I think a former student of Hiang's trains in it (who speaks well of him, btw) perhaps you know him and can get a better answer.

Also, can you tell us Hiang's side of the story? I'm sure people would love to hear the truth about Shaolin-Do.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:13 PM.]

Talon

04-20-2001, 01:37 AM

Well, I know a lot about what has gone on in the past, not from personal experience, but the info comes from the people that were there. However I don't think it is necessary to spill out the entire past for everyone to see, not because it's a secret but mainly because Master Hiang doesn't want that, again it goes back to the fact him and Sin are brothers and I'm sure he doesn't want to badmouth him. His actions speak for themselves. As dragon797 said, Hiang is now teaching his own art and is trying very hard to make his own identity. Again, the actions speak for themselves.
One little factoid that is well known among Hiang's students, and maybe some shaolin-do students is that Sin tried to sue a student of Hiang's years back for copyright infringement, trying to keep him from teaching the material out (because he says he is the grandmaster). When the day in court came and Sin produced notes for the material that he had back from his days in Indonesia, Hiang matched him note for note. And then there were notes for material Hiang had, that Sin didn't, including at least one very basic piece of material (the short stick form taught at green belt). Does this mean Hiang has 950 katas (the # Sin claims)? No, Hiang has somewhere around 100-150, I'm not sure exactly. So where does Sin keep picking up new material trying to reach that self proclaimed # of 950? I'll leave everyone to their own theories.
There is a very good reason a lot of Sin's senior students respect Hiang. He taught them a lot of stuff Sin can't, because he never learned it himself.
I'm not trying to stir up any bad blood, but, the facts are the facts. I don't see anything wrong with people knowing the facts. And living in Lexington, I'm sure you are very aware of the type of marketing that goes on with Sin's school. They pay off the Shaolin temple to put a tablet up, then they pay the Horse Park to let them demonstrate during the China exhibit last summer, then they pay Joseph Beth to do demonstrations at the book store. All the while acting like these were all honors and invitations thrust upon them.
I guess I should stop for now, I'm starting to go off .
:D

BeiKongHui

04-20-2001, 01:47 AM

That's cool. The Sin The' thing can be really frustrating. Do you currently train? They also have a Wushu teacher & a Jeet Kune Do teacher if your interested in CMA's.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:56 PM.]

Talon

04-20-2001, 11:52 PM

Unfortunately right now I don't. I do a lot of travelling with my current job so that prevents me from keeping up regular attendance at a school. I do however practice on my own and continue to work out.

SanHeChuan

04-21-2001, 01:17 AM

so where does Hiang teach and what styles does he teach? do he have a web site? 100+ form still seems like alot.

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

Talon

04-21-2001, 02:19 AM

Hiang teaches in Ky. His homebase is Lexington and there are students of his teaching in various parts of central and eastern Ky.
His specialty is a type of bird called tai peng I think (should probably verify that with someone more in the know).
100+ forms is a huge amount, too much for me to be honest. But in all fairness to the system, I have seen quite a few other styles that have way more than that. I have heard of a style of praying mantis (it was either seven star or 8 step Im not sure) that has 120 empty hand forms alone! Not to mention the weapons. Choy li fut comes to mind as another style that has a lot of forms (close to 200 is what I've heard on various occasions).

Radhnoti

04-21-2001, 04:28 AM

Just a quick update, Hiang The' has declared himself to be the Grandmaster of CHUNG YEN SHAOLIN. The forms are exactly the same as what is taught in Shaolin-Do, there are still belts, and a gi. :cool:
Hope he does well. If anyone wants the website, I got this from I'll try to post it...especially if someone explains how to do it. :)

-Radhnoti

SanHeChuan

04-21-2001, 04:50 AM

to post the web site just type the ULR (web address) it's nothing special

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

Inquisitor

04-21-2001, 12:47 PM

==============================
Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation.
--------------------

Hah okay, I don't know where you got that I somehow "fell apart," but if you say so... And your reply to Falcor's post was typical to your, shall we say, "style" of writing. You disregarded the whole point of his argument and went on a tangent.

--------------------
"And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do.
--------------------

No, it is not okay for me not to prove something. The whole point that I was trying to make (and you so deftly avoided) was that I had already proven certain things, such as the fact that Sin The's lineage cannot be substantiated. Go look back in my previous posts. I said something like "No one has ever heard of Su Kong Tai Djin or Ie Chang Ming, and no one can vouch for the skill of Sin The." Also, your little trick to use say that you never said that anything new wasn't incorporated into Shaolin-Do... I have news for you: the fact that you never said that nothing new was incorporated into Shaolin-Do doesn't change the basis of the argument being made. "GRANDMASTER" SIN THE CLAIMS TO HAVE THE SUM OF ALL KNOWLEDGE OF SHAOLIN KUNGFU. HE ALSO CLAIMS THAT HIS ONLY TEACHER IN THE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS IS IE CHANG MING. IF THAT IS TRUE, WHY DOES HE TEACH NON-SHAOLIN FORMS? HOW CAN HE CLAIM THAT TAI CHI CHUAN, A STYLE DESCENDED FROM WUDANG, HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE? NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WHY IS THE TAI CHI THAT HE TEACHES INCONSISTENT WITH THE TRADITIONAL STYLES?
Also, since one can prove that he got some of his vaunted "knowledge" from things such as books/videos/etc, could it not be viable that *all* of his knowledge stems from such materials?
Hopefully the uppercase made things more clear for you.

--------------------
Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
--------------------

Actually, I was the first one in this thread to point out that the Tai Chi Chuan being taught in Shaolin-Do was in fact non-traditional. Brad helped to clear things up by bringing in more details. Yes, but the way the Shaolin Temples did things were completely different from the way that Sin The is doing things. Okay, let's say that Sin The supposedly *did* somehow incorporate Tai Chi Chuan into the Shaolin-Do curriculum (hypothetical situation). If that were true, why does he use the modern wushu Tai Chi forms? Would it not be better for him to contact one of the traditional Tai Chi masters and learn from that person? Oh, of course not. He can just go buy a book and learn the forms from there. It'll be just as good as the original stuff! Give me a break. Again, you used faulty logic and tried to divert attention from the argument.

--------------------
"What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses.
--------------------

Blah blah blah blah blah. You took up the position of defending Shaolin-Do. When I and others presented you with arguments, you were supposed to defend against them. Just because I chose to use the word "job" does not detract from those facts. Also, if you did not think that it was important to you to defend "Grandmaster" Sin, then why did you start? Apparently you don't know how the human brain works. The only reason you would put time and effort into doing something like this would be because, on a certain level, Shaolin-Do (and hence, "Granmdaster" Sin) is important to you. And to claim that it is "pathetic" to be on my side of the fence... No comment.

--------------------
All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
--------------------

Again, blah blah blah blah blah. You diverted the argument from the fact that you could not adequately defend Shaolin-Do to the idea that it is somehow wrong of me to point out that you failed. LoL and then you suddenly present the idea that it somehow makes me feel better (a.k.a. "helps my self-esteem" or "makes me a bigger man") by putting you down (which I did not)...

--------------------
"I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
--------------------

For starters, I *have* listened to practically everthing that you have written in this thread. That is why I reply to each and every word that you have written (and separated them into coherent paragraphs, at that). It would be very hard for me to rebut your arguments unless I were able to read and understand what you wrote. Secondly, you insinuate that somehow this debate should have been completely impartial. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't the way the world works. It is a given that you are on the side of Shaolin-Do, and that I am on the side against Shaolin-Do. What I say is biased, and what you say is biased. That should be recognized, as it is true. However, it should not detract from the fact that I and others have presented arguments against Shaolin-Do that make perfect sense, and that you have either completely ignored or "rationalized" in some way.
I'm getting more and more annoyed when you start bringing feelings and emotions into this whole mess. You say things like "I am in awe of Shaolin-Do" and "Well, Shaolin-Do makes me happy!" when they bring no merit to your defense. So what if it makes you happy? That has no bearing on whether or not Shaolin-Do is fake. And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. I'll address that new thread on the main forum when I have the chance. For now, let's stick to this one...

--------------------
"Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights.
"Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
Wow! We agree on something.
-Radhnoti
===============================

Nice try, but that won't fly with me. I said that I expected you to respond intelligently. That can be taken to mean that your responses were not intelligent, but it is a stretch of the imagination to somehow imply that I somehow think that you are stupid or that you are unintelligent. The fact that I expected *better* of you should show you how I feel about "how smart you are." Never, ever insinuate that I would resort to personal attacks to win an argument. That is the tactic of George W. Bush, not me.
And, BTW, just because I'm sick and tired of arguing about Shaolin-Do doesn't mean that I will stop. =)

dragon797

04-21-2001, 06:30 PM

After returning from a 5 year stay in Indonesia to be with his family, Hiang The (The "The" family name can also be translated from the Chinese character as Chen), he began to actively teach full-time again in Lexington, KY last year in conjunction with the YMCAs of Lexington. To clearly separate himself from brother Sin's group and establish his own identity, Hiang decided to return to the ORIGINAL name his teachers used for their style in Indonesia: Chung Yen Shaolin, or Central Area Shaolin. The name Chung Yen Shaolin is inscribed on the specialty medallions and rank certificates Hiang earned from his teachers. The Shaolin-Do name was started by Sin when he came to the US in 1964 and started teaching.

Hiang received his sixth degree rank before he came to the US in 1968 to attend college at the University of Kentucky. Grandmaster Ie passed away in August 1968 (note that Sin claims Ie died in 1976! There is a picture of Ieâ€™s gravestone with the correct date) and then Hiang returned to Indonesia in 1974 to receive his seventh degree from Liu Su Peng, one of Ieâ€™s original partners and then head of the school after Ieâ€™s death. Hiang returned again in early 1978, but Liu Su Peng died shortly before that and the original group was beginning to split up. Hiang was offered control but turned it down to return to the US.

Hiang is the highest-ranking student of the original Chung Yen Shaolin group. Sinâ€™s certificate from January 15, 1964 shows that the last rank he tested for was 5th degree and he never returned to Indonesia for rank advancement. When Hiang made the decision to re-create the original group in his own name here, he rightfully claimed to be its head. He has approximately 120 long forms, of which he has taught around 85-90. One proof of this is that Hiang requires students to make a video tape of their material as part of their test for higher ranks. He currently has one student who just tested for seventh degree and another sixth degree that have performed all these forms on video. Hiang continues to teach new material to his advanced group and plans to teach the rest his material within the next 5 years.

By the way, the web site you may be referring to is from one of Hiangâ€™s studentâ€™s students and is mostly, but not completely accurate. One of Hiangâ€™s senior students is currently working on an official website for the group in conjunction with the Lexington YMCAs.

Radhnoti

04-22-2001, 12:15 AM

Thanks for the info dragon797. Inquisitor, I PROMISE I'll plow through your post when I get some more time this week. I know, I know, you can't wait can you? :rolleyes:
Anyone that hasn't Destrous9's thread on "fake" martial arts, I'd suggest doing so. He seems to be a far wiser man than I. 'Course how hard is that? :)

-Radhnoti

Radhnoti

04-22-2001, 10:31 PM

Wow, what a difference a day makes. For the first time I didn't have time to immediately respond...and now I see that we've degenerated from me giving my point of view and you giving yours, to silly wordplay.
I hope this is the last quote I'll take from you to make a point Inquisitor.
"And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. " If it's ok with you, I'll just boil that down as your viewpoint, ok? A number of folks agree with you.
I disagree. So do a number of others that have posted in this thread. My previous posts state my position, as your posts show yours...besides, this thread is already longer than any other I've seen here. ;)
My stupid macho side is BEGGING me to pick out what you've said at tear at it. So, the WISE thing for me to do MUST be to just let it go. No?
This thread has been my introduction to this forum, but other threads have already taught me a lot. Thanks for a spirited debate. :D
No doubt we'll square off elsewhere on this issue...but, I'll try to stay away from quoting you and speak a bit more generally. See you on the boards.

-Radhnoti

Johnny Hot Shot

06-03-2001, 08:25 AM

Is what Mattera Paid to get his 10th DAN given to him from the Shaolin Monks. Crazy

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

kung fu fan

09-29-2004, 09:11 AM

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

GeneChing

09-29-2004, 09:35 AM

Shaolin-do real? Here's what's real. There's a little search button at the bottom of the page. Reset your window so you can see all the posts from the beginning and plug in Shaolin-do. You'll get plenty of leads. Plus check out the main forum since there's an active thread on this topic there.

Since you're new, we won't chastise you for starting yet another Shaolin-Do thread, but please, don't start any more.

MonkeySlap Too

09-29-2004, 01:59 PM

No, it is not Shaolin kung fu.

Shaolinlueb

09-30-2004, 10:05 AM

dont listen to them. chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage....... :o :p

David Jamieson

09-30-2004, 10:06 AM

lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

Siu Lum Fighter

09-30-2004, 10:11 AM

chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage.......

:confused: :confused:

MasterKiller

09-30-2004, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Siu Lum Fighter
:confused: :confused: http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

Siu Lum Fighter

09-30-2004, 10:31 AM

Oh, Chewbacca! You mean Su Kong Tai Tjin the wolf man himself. I'll admit that he must have had some beastmaster type skills. But is Shaolin Do really original? I mean, they wear gi's and have a karate style ranking system for peets sake.

And 900 forms?! Just like at Omei and other schools, it's traditionally accepted that there were ten core forms and then all of the offshoots from those.

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 10:55 AM

SD is original, but I can go out and make up my own stuff and call it JP-do and it would be original JP-do, right? It's exact origins are subject to much debate (Gene's "search" idea is a great one.) We don't need yet another thread on it's history and origins. The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. The number of forms--heck I don't know what a "form" is and what GM The knows and doesn't know. Could it be creative accounting? Maybe, the only way I would know is if I counted him doing the forms.

Do a search, read all the debate and PM me if you still have questions. Otherwise these threads start to get ugly and redundant.

MasterKiller

09-30-2004, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. Actually, I proved the law outlawing Chinese Martial Arts in Indonesia was passed in 1965, which sort of puts a kink in the whole SD timeline.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29825&highlight=Indonesian

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 11:33 AM

Actually you proved a "national" law passed at that time. We weren't able to determine if there were local ordinances or regional bans were in effect prior to 1965. I actually e-mailed Davies and he did respond, but he didn't have any specific information on regional bans but indicated it could be a possibility. Where did I put that e-mail. . . .

MasterKiller

09-30-2004, 11:35 AM

Now now...don't be a revisionist. :p

Why would a group of CMA practcioners, dedicated to preserving Shaolin Martial Arts from the Fukien Temple, stay in one city that banned CMA and made them alter their Shaolin traditions when they could simply move to another city and practice freely?

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 11:53 AM

I'm not being a revisionist, we talked about that topic when you mentioned the law. And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.

And wouldn't it be easier to wear a gi than to move to a different city? :)

MasterKiller

09-30-2004, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed. Lack of specificity is the incriminating factor, not a saving grace.

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 11:58 AM

I'm just playing the hand that is dealt. :p

MonkeySlap Too

09-30-2004, 01:16 PM

Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere.

My sole contention, is that i think the historical claims of SD are complete BS, and that from what I've seen, there is no actual CMA in SD - it looks like Karate, no matter what CMA 'style' they are doing.

It could have been that Sin The' learned a karate/kun tao hybrid, then took a page from John C Kim and grafted on a bunch of stuff he didn't know or understand.

It is the inherent disingenuosness and outright falsehoods used to sell thier lessons that bugs me.

Do the search, this bores the cr@p out of me....

MasterKiller

09-30-2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere. What time period? Post 1965? The SD claim is that Ie Ching Men (or whatever) adopted the gis when he came to Indonesia, which would have been pre-1925 (maybe around 1905). I don't dispute the claim that they wear gis because of the law; I dispute the claim that the tradition goes back as far as SD says it does.

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.

Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

norther practitioner

09-30-2004, 02:03 PM

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

I knew there was a reason I liked you... and it wasn't all the SW crap.

seriously, are we going there again?

Judge Pen

09-30-2004, 02:29 PM

I hope not.

Pk_StyLeZ

09-30-2004, 06:27 PM

i agree wit one of u guys about the forms..i forgot who and to lz to go back and read..who cares bout the uniform..seriously..it jus clothes..but there forms look like crap!..lolz so freaking ugly!!!..so karate/taekwondao like!
doesnt look nothing like shaolin(da one i study) or any hung gar/clf forms or anything like that..so ugly!!!! and for sure it doesnt look like wushu
lolz i was laughing so hard when i was watching some of there animals form..lolz SO UGLYYYYYY...AHH AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
how about we take them guys to li peng shaolin competition if he decides to hold it agian..and see how they do....=)

Vash

09-30-2004, 06:55 PM

PK;

You should be assraped by the devil for typing like that.

Pk_StyLeZ

09-30-2004, 07:20 PM

do u want to hate on my typing too??
the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)
but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

Vash

09-30-2004, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
do u want to hate on my typing too??

Hate on . . . .? You are not ghetto. Your spelling sucks. Your grasp of English is non-existent. And you're not ghetto. Hell, people from the ghetto don't talk like that, you complete and utter tool.

the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)

I doubt it.

but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

No. I want the devil to ass rape you.

Pk_StyLeZ

09-30-2004, 07:43 PM

no one said i was ghetto...i never said i was ghetto..dis is jus da way i type..dis is jus the way i talk
i agree..my spellin do suck..my gramma aint good....i ait da best student in my english class either..."people from da ghetto dont talk like dis"..exactlly..dat why i aint ghetto..so why do u keep bringing up ghetto cuz i never said i was ghetto in the first place or trying to be ghetto or anything
u dont tink da last guy who hated on my made himself look like a fool..let me try to find the post and u read ur self
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32307
there go read..and look stupid dat guy looked wen he tried to insult my writing
o and this is quoted from gene "Calling someone down on their grammer is ridiculous here, sort of like calling someone down because their sparring gear is too gaudy colored."
soo BOO YA IN UR EYE

Vash

09-30-2004, 07:48 PM

And your sparring gear is too **** pink.

For PK:

Dat's Just Da Wa I talk1!1 (http://www.wiggaz.com)

Pk_StyLeZ

09-30-2004, 07:53 PM

ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

MasterKiller

10-01-2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia. The gi argument is just a piece of the concerns about ALL the Japanese cultural connections, which in turn is directly related to the legitmacy of Sin's lineage claims to Shaolin.

Ie was born in 1880; At some point, he killed between 9 and 11 Chinese Army guards and was eventually forced into exile in Indonesia in either 1910 or 1928. CSC says 1910, SD says 1928. I have no idea why you guys disagree on this point.

At any rate, he was teaching Chinese Martial Arts at least 37 years before the only documented Chinese cultural ban (we currently have evidence of) in Indonesia was inacted. He opened a public school and taught for 37 years....and then one day changed his uniforms, terminology, and ranking system and everyone looked the other way?

Sin The' started training in 1950 when he was 7, so we know Ie was AT LEAST teaching by then, which is still 15 years before the ban.

Sheeeiiiit, Sin The' himself came to America 1964....a year before the ban was enacted. Besides...wouldn't training with Chinese weapons alert people you were learning a Chinese art?? :p

I also have no idea why CSC claims Ie died in 1968, and SD claims 1976. Or why CSC claims Sin The is Ie's grandson, and SD claims they are unrelated.

lxtruong

10-01-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

These are for you buddy:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-10-11&res=l

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-07&res=l

MonkeySlap Too

10-01-2004, 08:23 PM

MK,
Your date argument (1964) pretty much makes SD look completely bogus. However, you need to consider the syncretic nature of Indonesia. The Indonesians as a culture are highly adaptive, and sometimes a superficial change is adequate to satisfy most as a change. The laws against CMA and Chinese language also require Indonesian citizens of Chinese decent to have Indonesian names. The adoption of Bahasa Indonesia required the generic Chinese term in Indonesia (kun Tao) be replaced with a bahasa word (Silat). Which is why you see CMA called 'Silat' even though it isn't 'Silat' in the specific sense.

It was also common to see blending of CMA, JMA, and IMA in certain circles, because there were strong traditions of holding back (See Draegers "Weapons and Fighting Arts of The Indonesian Archipelago") - it is possible that this is the root of SD. But I doubt it based upon the technical skills I've seen from SD people.

All this aside, I'm convinced that SD is a fraud perpetrated by Sin The'. He is either a jovial con man whose great conditioning and decent karate skills allowed him to con unknowing Americans, or he's the biggest freaking idiot in the world and actually beleives his own stories. In either case, why would you want to follow him?

The footage of him moving was the clincher. While i have seen Kun Tao players do, say a mantis set that was obviously made up based on something else, it still had the content of that something else. SD just looks bad to me.

Sin The'

10-01-2004, 10:50 PM

Sin The's says the true value in this thread was the discovery of this page. (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/)

Golden Tiger

10-02-2004, 06:22 AM

Yes, I am still out here. I got a bit bored so I figured I would catch up on what was happening here in the world of keyboard sparring.

Anyway..... The video clip that MK is refering to is not one of our forms. Actually, it is bits and pieces of a few of them that Master Sin did for a video trailer that he made to send to a movie company. (Insert your comments as you see fit)

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

MonkeySlap Too

10-02-2004, 09:12 AM

Doesn't change the fact that he moves like someone who doesn't know CMA.

Wildwoo

10-02-2004, 01:48 PM

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

Is'nt Tang Lang Preying Mantis? I am confused and a littlel nausie.

WWII

Ralphie

10-03-2004, 07:15 PM

wow, haven't visited this site for a while, and yet the more things change...

pest

10-03-2004, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by Kung Lek
lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

My understanding was Praying mantis was created by a monk named wong long and brought in to shaolin because of its efficiency :confused: Please correct me if im wrong.

trilobite

10-04-2004, 10:11 PM

Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

mr.marshal art

10-05-2004, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by trilobite
Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

AMEN
-mr.marshal art

MasterKiller

10-05-2004, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by trilobite
Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train. Did you turn 15 yet? Get any cool Power Rangers for your birthday?

Fu-Pow

10-05-2004, 02:09 PM

Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

Shaolinlueb

10-05-2004, 07:56 PM

uuuuugh waaaaaa

Judge Pen

10-06-2004, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

This was your most enjoyable SD bashing post to date Fu Pow.

Meat Shake

10-07-2004, 05:53 PM

rofl....
holy sh!t... blackpeopleloveus.com...
Thats some funny sh!t.

yu shan

10-08-2004, 08:42 PM

I have met and trained with you. And you are straight-up with SD. I`m empressed with your Teachers openness to allow you to test the waters, this is a good thing. How do I say this... once you pick up a new form, is it incorporated into SD? I only ask this because of the hundreds of forms you guys and gals have. BTW, how is your knee doing? Anytime your in Music City, bang me a call... doesnt hurt the knee to do hand drills :D

Judge Pen

10-10-2004, 01:13 PM

Any form I learn from another source is mine and does not become a part of SD. I've heard that some advanced students went to China and Indonesia with Master Sin The' and learned from some of his contemporaries, as they called them, over there and some of those forms are now taught. 99% comes from Master Sin and, at one time his brother. I don't know of any instance where a teacher picked up a form that was then passed off as an SD form. It's possible, of course, but I don't know of any instance.

For instance, Master Sin just taught out a BaGua dao form (I didn't learn or see it). According to him he learned it when he was 18 and put about 70 hours into polishing it before he taught it at a seminar.

As for Nashville, I'm not dating that girl there anymore, but I can plan for a special trip any Saturday I'm open. It will have to be after my knee surgery though as my weekends are all tied up until then.

Fred Sanford

10-11-2004, 01:00 PM

To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

Shaolinlueb

10-11-2004, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

you get 2 snaps and a twist for staying on topic :o :D ;) :p

BentMonk

10-13-2004, 02:55 AM

Shaolin Do is as real as any other art. It has great instructors, good instructors, and mediocre instructors just like any other art. Neither is all the debate about material and lineage exclusive to Shaolin Do. Read ANY Wing Chun thread and you'll see that. Go to a school and check it out. If you like it stay. If not, go somewhere else. If your sole basis for oppinion on anything is what you read on the internet, you will never get a complete picture of what you're interested in. Besides, the trolls around here get whiny without a good SD thread to play on once a month. Peace.

omarthefish

10-13-2004, 03:40 AM

No.

Tis is not about a lineae debate. WC people arue over wo learned a more complete sytem or wo's version is better.

Te Saolin Do tin is completely fabricated.

And I am not tryin to be etto. Certain letters are no loner workin on my keyboard.

cerebus

10-13-2004, 03:54 AM

LOL! And for a minute there I thought you'd been possessed by the spirit of blooming lotus!! :p :p :p

Golden Tiger

10-13-2004, 05:38 AM

Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

MasterKiller

10-13-2004, 07:36 AM

Judge Pen

10-13-2004, 09:40 AM

Round and round this thread goes; where it end. . . Please let it end. I'm dizzy.

Seriously Omar, go and check them out, ask questions etc. Mk, I never did e-mail Coach He on that. I figured that even if she did say something to that effect, it could be easily discounted by some as "just being polite."

Fred Sanford

10-14-2004, 02:27 AM

Once we can all just agree that shaolin-do is not for real then it can all end.

Judge Pen

10-14-2004, 07:05 AM

That's the dig, Fred. It's for real something. For real shaolin kung fu, for real kung fu, for real kung tao, for real karate, for real kempo, for real made up AMA, for real BS. . . . That's the question.

Even then, can it be learned and taught effectively? Can people fight using it? Does it have value as a system even if it's not what some people say it is? I appreciate your strong feelings on it, and we could argue till the cows come home but nothing will be resolved. People are going to believe what they want to, right?

Fred Sanford

10-14-2004, 04:10 PM

I think the whole lot of y'all have been conned and I'd imagine it's a bit hard to accept. tragic.

omarthefish

10-14-2004, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

Master Killer just may be riht but if he isn't...how exactly am I supposed to test tis "theory"? A death match? You do realize that what's beein disputed it the whole Su Kon Jin story and their alleed link to Shaolin. They could be really good figters and really cool to watch but they still would not be real shaolin.

But rest assured..if they come to Xi'an I WILL see them in person and I will even try to bring my Shifu along.

Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake. He trained at a temple that hadn't had monks in it for 200 years. They think all the internal arts of northern China are part of Shaolin. Nothing about their story makes sense. "Shaolin" as a home of Chinese gong fu had been dead since the late Qing dynasty and all the monks there now are those that were either hired or invited back.

If you enjoy the training...fine.

You will proably even learn some really nice Kenpo Karate to defend yourself with. Nothing wrong with that. I don't know what else to say on it.

mr.marshal art

10-14-2004, 08:20 PM

Know what you know.
Know what you don't know.
Know the difference.

i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

MonkeySlap Too

10-14-2004, 08:37 PM

Anybody want to take up a cololection to buy Omar a video camera?

I'd take odds on the BaJi vs. SD match, but i'm not sure how to time tenths of a second...

Judge Pen

10-15-2004, 08:35 AM

Nice post Omar. Let me know what you think when you watch them. And try to get names of the performers that you watch.

lxtruong

10-15-2004, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by omarthefish
Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake.

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here (http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Sun%20Yat%20Sen.jpg)
wearing a western suit.

MasterKiller

10-15-2004, 09:40 AM

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here
wearing a western suit.

Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

lxtruong

10-15-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. "

So who knows? I certainly wasn't there.

omarthefish

10-16-2004, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by mr.marshal art
i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

But mine is from the Analects, except I think I slightly modified the last line because I couldn't think how to translate it more accurately without making it really long and unwieldy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on the topic though....since it's so much fun!

Aside from what has just been mentioned about Sun Yat Sen's time in England, yes, it's true they were starting to adopt western clothing in that time. But Plaid sportcoats (as The "Monkey King" is pictured wearing" were still a long ways off.

"Western Clothing" of the era included things like....hats.

Or sunglasses.

And western clothing was still basically only worn by the aristocracy or anyone else with the cash to go and study abroad.

But mainly....ponder these 2 words: Plaid Sportcoat.

mr.marshal art

10-16-2004, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by omarthefish
I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

i found the quote in a copy of the tao te ching. i don't remember who translated it.
your translation is more interesting.
-marshal

MasterKiller

10-16-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by lxtruong
Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. " Yeah, and Su Kong supposedly died in 1928, at the age of 79. You saying he's between 71 and 79 in that picture? Besides...he was in Indonesia by that time, not China, remember?

lxtruong

10-16-2004, 03:48 PM

How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179.

Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled.

MasterKiller

10-16-2004, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by lxtruong
How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179. You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?
Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled. My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

Judge Pen

10-18-2004, 08:01 AM

I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

lxtruong

10-18-2004, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?

I don't hang around 80 year old men. Do thier eyebrows and armhairs change color? No idea.

Originally posted by MasterKiller

My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

Wow! What a zinger!

brothernumber9

10-18-2004, 08:52 AM

There was a coach/Sifu that demonstrated at NACMAF in 92 or 93. His name excapes me (I think surname was Xia) but I think if anyone else was there they would also remember him, and maybe his name. He was in his seventies then and had jet black hair. He performed a tai ji form, a baat gua form, and a hsing yi form back to back to back. He was also famous for having defeated a russian in a public lei tai match after the russian had beat up a few locals and was publicly slandering Chinese people.

omarthefish

10-19-2004, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

Pinstripes are just as out of place.

And on the hair issue....Brotha9......

People die their hair.

My Shifu is in his mid 60's and has a full head of black hair but you can tell it's not died because IF you are close enough, you can see it's not completely black. There are white hairs here and there just like I have if you look for them.

I've not seen anyone in their 70's YET with dark hair. In another 5 years or so I may see....but so far I think my current Shifu holds the record at about 63.

Sin The'

11-01-2004, 10:29 PM

Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

Judge Pen

11-04-2004, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Sin The'
Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

:D

Songshan

11-05-2004, 12:16 AM

Well, I have read the threads checked the internet in regards to Shaolin-do. To answer the question is Shaolin-Do real? Yes. Is it real Shaolin? No. With respect to anyone who trains in Shaolin-do I must say that I am convinced that it is martial arts but not in the sense of it being directly a descendent of the Songshan Shaolin Temple where the historical roots of Shaolin are based out of. I will say that there are probably hundreds of abled "martial artists" studying shaolin-do (meaning that it's not to be called fake). I just don't agree that it has direct lineage to the Shaolin Temple.

I base this decision out of the history and "katas" (mind you a japanese term) that are listed in some of the Shaolin-do web sites. I view Shaolin-do as mainly a karate oriented blend of various styles of martial arts. Absent from the "katas" list are traditional Shaolin kung fu forms (Tong bei chuan, Da hong chuan, mei hua chuan, etc.). I didn't even see traditional excercises like Jin Gang Quan, Yi Jin Jing or Xi Sui Jing listed. :confused:

I must have seen at least 50+ forms listed for the Shaolin-do system on one of those websites (and yes the 90 form debate we seen here on these forums). The reality is that most of the Shaolin Monks were only true masters of one maybe two forms tops (but had knowledge of many). I know the debate rages on about other styles of kung fu being directly called "Shaolin" and yes I am sure it will go on. There are those too that say the monks in America are fake and so forth. In some sense I often say to myself when will all these debates end? Martial Arts is such a broad term that I believe every and any style has its place so long as its theory and application have been tested. Lets face it.....anyone can do just about anything and call it a martial art. I often fail to see why so many seek to control the term "Shaolin" and exploit it. Perhaps I clearly understand the trademark battle Shaolin is in with Abbot Shi Yong Xin

That being said... I by no means consider myself a master, expert or a self proclaimed disciple of a monk. I am just but a fish in the ocean. I post this with respect to the Shaolin-do practitioners and by no means do I have any intentions of degrading the art. :)

cerebus

11-06-2004, 04:55 PM

Actually they claim to descend from the Fukien Shaolin temple and to have 900 forms, not 90. Other than that, yeah I agree with you.

Shaolinlueb

11-06-2004, 11:24 PM

well put songshan. well put.

pedro_sanchez

11-12-2004, 12:32 PM

hello all. I am currently a moderator at another martial arts website. I greet you all respectfully. Just a brief background on my martial arts. I trained in boxing for quite a number of years, and I am currently a student of Shaolin 5 animals, Jeet Kune Do and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

On the other website, we have had more than a couple of run-ins with the Shaolin-do goof troop. They have been nothing more than trolls who contributed nothing to our website. They claim, until they are blue in the face that they are Shaolin. Even thought they wear Japanese Uniforms, use the belt ranking system and use Japanese terms for thier techniques. Through some great research from one of our other moderators, we have managed to find a website with some video clips of Shaolin-do training. The videos were all sped up to make it look like they had superhuman speed. A pretty lame attempt at that. They would even speed up a very badly coreographed "sparring" session. The members of Shaolin-do were so disrespectful and so not like a student of Shaolin. They call themselves senior students but act more like pre school children. The resorted to poking fun at another moderator whose 1st language wasn't english. The made fun of his grammar and spelling. When in fact there was nothing wrong with his grammar. The Shaolin-do students were just being petty.

My wish is not to start a new stay on this forum on a negative note, but I have had more than a few run-ins with these clowns. When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised.

MasterKiller

11-12-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised. Do a Search and give yourself an annurism. There are 100s of threads about them. :D

norther practitioner

11-12-2004, 12:56 PM

with the Shaolin-do goof troop

I like this one... :D

No disrespect to JP, but that was funny.

Hua Lin Laoshi

11-12-2004, 01:35 PM

Just to offer a little balance on the subject I've got to say that in my limited exposure to Shaolin-Do practitioners I've found them to be hard working, good people. While the origins of the art may be questionable the practitioners (mostly Sifu level) I've met are much better people than some of the posters I've seen here. I visited a local school to see for myself and was impressed with the effort they put into their training. I can't speak on the value of the techniques or legitimacy of the sets but the players were very passionate about their training. And I have yet to see any SD guys on this site acting childish and insulting to other. Then again I haven't followed the past threads so I could be wrong.

(stepping down off soapbox)

BentMonk

11-12-2004, 02:05 PM

Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

pedro_sanchez

11-13-2004, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by BentMonk
Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

Thanks for the respect you've shown in this post. I try not to make generalizations about other schools, however these folks came as ambassadors of SD. Lets just say the members of the other forum were not impressed by their first impressions. It is however, refreshing to see such tolerance and respect shown by the members on this forum. Well from what I've seen so far.

BentMonk

11-13-2004, 02:31 PM

"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

pedro_sanchez

11-14-2004, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by BentMonk
"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

Hopefully they will budz. And these practitioners of SD actually came from Kentucky.

yu shan

11-14-2004, 05:44 PM

I have no problem with SD, let them make there mark. If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO

BentMonk

11-14-2004, 06:03 PM

"If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO"

You speaks da truth Yu Shan. :D

MasterKiller

11-15-2004, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by yu shan
If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

Shaolinlueb

11-15-2004, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

so true MK. they can always hide by me then :o :p

Judge Pen

11-17-2004, 04:34 PM

You go and have knee surgery and see what happens to these threads. . . :D

A couple of comments:

1. Pedro Sanchez: I think I've read the thread that you were discussing and I'm sorry if some SD students didn't represent themselves well. However, that can be said for any style that has people that feel passionately about their art. I've been flamed away just because I study SD and not say BJJ, but I don't judge the art based upon the rantings of an anonymous internet "ambassador."

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

3. Yu Shan and Hua Lin: Thanks for the kind words about SD. I wish more people shared your perspective. I like to think that I work hard regardless of arguments of lineage and origin.

4. MK and shaolinlueb: Speaking of which, I have a new girlfriend. . . .

Songshan

11-18-2004, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

Yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you wear doesn't dictate what style you train. I do feel that what style you train dictates what you represent. As it has been said a hundred times before, "Shaolin" is a very broad term that just about any style of MA can pretty much say they are Shaolin based. Lets face it, the real Shaolin vs none Shaolin, real monk vs fake monk debates probably don't mean a hell of a lot to the average martial artist. There are tons of martial artists that probably read these posts and say why the heck does the name Shaolin matter anyway? It does mean something to the ones like myself that do train in Shaolin that are not just learning Wushu. I grow tired of reading about "Shaolin is just wushu" stuff. There IS a difference. It's just up to you if whether or not you want to search for the answers.

Getting back to the post....the belt ranks, American expectations, and the japanese term association changes what real traditional Shaolin represents. I believe when you change something, modify or add new things the traditional aspect is lost. I see this in many "Shaolin" named styles. I recognize some of the moves as Shaolin kung fu but the rest was either added or modified. I don't see a problem with certain styles changing certain things...it just shouldn't be called Shaolin. So now that Shaolin is in a middle of a trademark battle it will be interesting to see what comes out of it. :p

Judge Pen

11-18-2004, 07:37 AM

I see SD has having roots in shaolin, but almost any style can say that. So it's called shaolin-"do" (which is a japanese term but pronouned and means the same as tao a Chinese term.) So they name acknowledges that it is a way of shaolin. Is it the only way? Apparently not. Has it been modified? All you have to do is look at the material and how it is performed to know the answer to that. It's changed and evolved differently. It has incorporated techniques and forms that aren't traditional shaolin. But, in my experience it is effective for art, health, and martial ability. It is kung fu that has evolved through a path from China to Indonesia to Kentucky. And things change with time.

canglong

11-19-2004, 08:48 AM

The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

Judge Pen

11-19-2004, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by canglong
The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

canglong, you are talking about a complete study of shaolin. But several here practice shaolin martial arts without the religious aspect included. They can be seperated into parts. I'm not making an argument that shaolin-do is pure shaolin. I just think that one can study shaolin martial arts without practicing Chan Buddhism.

canglong

11-19-2004, 08:59 AM

Judge Pen,
yes I agree that's why I started my post with The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all. I do think there are some that study part and believe they study the whole though.

Judge Pen

11-19-2004, 09:27 AM

Fair enough. Although I'm interested in Buddhism and Taoism philosophy, it's not a religion I would practice. I don't think anyone at SD says they study all of shaolin (just the martial part). The breathing and mediation that is taught is taught as a martial and health perspective; not a spiritual element.

canglong

11-19-2004, 09:59 AM

Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated. I am not familiar enough with SD to discuss it in length my remarks were to simply help clarify the definition of Shaolin in this discussion.

Judge Pen

11-19-2004, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by canglong
Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated.

My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

canglong

11-19-2004, 12:22 PM

No apologies necessary just trying to share and grow like yourself.

omarthefish

11-21-2004, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

Most do.

It just happens to be an agnostic religion. Also, heterodoxy is no problem in China and in most Chinese religions.

Many westerners are attracted to the philosophical system presented within the Buddhist religion and therefore tend to think of it as simply a philosophy, however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity. You can take the philosophy of Christianity without the religion as well....it's called ethical humanism. Buddhism has a cosmological system, many formalized systems of prayer and spiritual advancement. There are formal hierarchical organizations and every other defining characteristic of "religion".

The case for Daoism as a philosophy is stronger. There is clearly regligious daoism as well but there is a much clearer tradition of daoism as simply a view of the way the world works as presented in the Yi Jing. The "Dao De Jing" ironically is not titled, "The Classic on the Dao" but rather, "The 'Sutra' of Virtue". 'Jing' is the Chinese term for religious texts. It CAN refer to philosophical works but the first association is religion. And the 'de' in Dao De Jin is not denoting the possesive. It is another character: 'virtue' ..as in 'Wu De'. The compoung word "Dao De" means: Virtue or 'morality'.

But daoism lacks Buddhism's degree of formal systemization and deity worship.

Judge Pen

11-22-2004, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by omarthefish
however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity.

That's what I thought. My point was that I was attracted to the philosophy of Buddhism without it's core spiritual components. I always identified it as a religion primarily and a philosphy secondarily.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 10:30 AM

Threadstarter: Yes, it's "real" Kung-fu. It's an excellant system, weather you listen to the trolls or not. It's not as "pretty" as some other systems of Shaolin, but it has purpose, and martial application. If the majority of schools are scheduled like the one I belong to, there is a LOT of time spent on sparring and application study.

You will also find traditional excersise and meditation techniques, a wide range of weapons, and develop a wonderful range of versatility in fighting techniques and tactics.

It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

SimonM

01-20-2005, 10:35 AM

I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion.

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by SimonM
I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion. Well, since the standard textbook definition of religion is " the service and worship of God or the supernatural" and since Buddha was not a god, and did not speculate on the supernatural, you can kind of see the disconnect, can't you?

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.

Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes:

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes: Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

your confusion regarding our material does little to credit your arguments, and less to merit your negative attitude.

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 11:23 AM

I'm not confused over your material.

Tai Chi Ar Se Se Tse. That's your 24-step form.

Everyone in the rest of the world knows it was invented in 1956. Everyone from an SD school thinks it comes from Shaolin. Shaolin Bagua...Shaolin Xing Yi....Shaolin Taiji....hahahahahahhaha

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 11:40 AM

Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you. So who taught it to Sin The'?

lxtruong

01-20-2005, 11:49 AM

This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

sean_stonehart

01-20-2005, 12:33 PM

Judge Pen

01-20-2005, 12:38 PM

Whe I learned Tai Chi 24, my teacher told me that it was a recently created form by various tai chi masters. Sin The did teach it to his students, but didn't claim it was from shaolin--he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world so he taught it to his students as well. (according to my teacher anyway--I don't know what other SD schools may claim).

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by lxtruong
This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible.

Topics about SD, or ANY other MA system do not need to be turned into 60-page flame wars. It's rediculous, childish, and it's not a very good representation of the character of kung-fu practitioners.

I've read MANY books on chinese martial arts, and so far my own training has been as consistant with what I've read as can be expected considering the cultural differances and diversities in China. If I see a chinese practitioner performing Chen style tai chi, it looks almost identical to the form I've seen (but still can't remember all of....what a brain-killer that is...). Weather or not our history is in question, our forms and techniques are legitimate.

I have better things to do than argue on forums all day. What I would LIKE to be able to do is discuss my system here without being bombarded by trolls. Is there enough mutual respect between martial artists on this board to allow for that?

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible. YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

This is exactly what I mean of course. Further, I don't see how being polite and respectful classifies me as a "cry baby". To me, and I'm sure most others, it signifies having basic manners and a mentality beyond that of an adolescent's.

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 02:18 PM

You can politely whine about not being able to discuss SD all day long. It still makes you a cry baby.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 02:38 PM

the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars.

It's not a problem with SD, it's a problem with moderation of these boards.

If I were for a moment to sink down to your level of maturity, I might respond with "I know you are but what am I??" :p

MasterKiller

01-20-2005, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars. Well, then, check around. I regularly contribute to this board a wide and diverse range of topics concerning Chinese martial arts technique and history. Check yourself, n00b. You're fresh meat dabbling in dicey subject. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 03:16 PM

Nice attitude. That alone is a fantastic contribution to teh kung-fu mentality :rolleyes:

/end sarcasm

Honestly, man. people should be able to post on these boards without having people like you come along and bash at them with your bully-stick.

Why is MY CHOSEN SYSTEM a dicey subject? how about you just take your opinion, and your nasty attitude elsewhere. I suppose you also have such bigotry issues in other areas, maybe race or religion?

Check your ego, sir. And check your tongue.

Starchaser107

01-20-2005, 03:17 PM

Wharghoul , please contact Captain Pickaxe or Meatshake via PM and ask them thier opinions on shaolin do.

In my opinion, you can practice whatever you want to practice.
This is a public forum, with a gathering of numerous chinese martial arts teachers and students alike.
There are certain accepted facts about the origins of various styles, well documented lineages , and historical accounts.
When something comes along that seems incosistent with not only the facts , but also visually does not resemble what it claims to be , it should be expected that it will be challenged.

That's all there is to it. MasterKiller is entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. This is neither a flame war nor a cause for banning someone.

Why is it moderation thats at fault when you don't get your own way?
May I remind you that it is you who practice the style that the populous deem "sketchy", yet no moderator has attempted to ban you.

control your emotions , and try to use some reasoning and logic.
Most people here don't adhere to blind faith. If someone asks you to proove your assertions, why not oblige them instead of getting heated.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 03:50 PM

Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school.

It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?

This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war.

I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved.

This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character.

It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way.

Starchaser107

01-20-2005, 04:04 PM

Seek and you will find.
Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here.
In very rare cases some of us are even invited by staff to be here.
We are a collective group of people from various walks of life, from various sides of the planet.
If you came here and you've noticed that there is a stong discontent for shaolin-do then maybe there is a good reason for it, maybe there isn't.
Some people here have better "people skills" than others, but that's just a fact of life my friend. It's a puddle that reflects the pond of life.
There are Shaolin Do contributors to these board. Who have decided that it's better to stay than to leave.
And why not?
There is much to be learned from harsh criticisms as painful as it might be.
I understand that it is important for you to be loyal to your school.
some people vehemently oppose your schools claims, others like me play more of an Agnostic role.
Embrace it and try to learn.
Questioning things is a part of the process.

Wharg0ul

01-20-2005, 04:20 PM

Constantly berating someone's school every time it is mentioned in a thread is neither constructive or useful, and is not conductive to an environment where people want to be.

Maybe some of you don't realise what a hostile, elitist environment you have here because you are used to it. But one would think that with good kung-fu, the internal aspects would be enough to prevent this kind of behavior from learned students. That is not what is exibited here, and it reflects badly on our art as a whole.
I've seen posts on these boards where people felt that they would introduce a new school tho the community, only to be insulted and flamed right off the forum.

It's disgraceful.

Maybe if someone points out that the Emperor is naked, there will be a change, but I doubt it.

Starchaser107

01-20-2005, 04:56 PM

while i understand what you're saying,
it's still a two sided coin.

mortal

01-20-2005, 05:01 PM

"Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here."

Agreed. but your machine gun speed reponses give people the impression you are hyped up.

"Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school."

I think masterkiller is just trying to steer a newb in the right direction. At the same time trying to open your eyes to this art you study. He is actully doing you a favor.

"It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?"

Why would a nasty attitude make you afraid to post? Just debate your point. Ignore posters that just seem like they are attacking you personally.

"This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war."

You think it is bad here? Go to bullshido.

"I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved."

Unfortunatly that happens here and in real life. My teacher was a monk and when I came on here everyone said he was fake and I freaked out. I knew he was skilled. That should have been good enough, but I argued and got defensive. Wasting my time and energy. Examine who is posting and what their past contibutions to the forum have been.

"This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character."

Everyones art here is very different. Everyones character is different. I don't take kungfu to be enlightened. I train to improve movement and fight. Does nothing but waste your mental energy and time.

"It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way."

Don't run away. Stand and argue your points or move on to another thread and ignore this one. Which by the way you brought back to life after months of dormincy.

GeneChing

01-20-2005, 05:21 PM

Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here. That would be the day, wouldn't it?

We offer this forum as a public service, and a place to help promote our wares. For me personally, it's been a great place to send all those questions I get, since almost every one of them have already been answered here or can be answered here by one of many of our illustrious members. The forum is free, with the stipulation that we can revoke membership at any time, and edit or delete posts at our pleasure. We generally don't exercise this right unless provoked.

Shaolin-Do is always heated here. Just check our archives. A Shaolin-Do person who comes here steps into the hornets nest, but they have no one to blame but themselves since the archives are readily available to anyone, even non-members.

Have fun and carry on! :cool:

BM2

01-20-2005, 11:22 PM

I have been saving up all this cyber money Gene sends to me via PMs and now I find out it's worthless.
Masterkiller, take a look at the quote at the end of my reply.

.

Judge Pen

01-21-2005, 05:40 AM

This board is like life, and in life you are going to get all kinds of mixed nuts whether you are polite to them or not. Now the romantic notion is that people who share a love for kung fu should treat each other differently, but really that's unrealistic in life, and it's certainly unrealistic on an internet board full of anononimity (sp). MK and I go round on these points often, but only when someone new comes along and raises the issue. The rest of the time we debate movies, football, women, and technique . Talk about techniques and no one will attack the art that you study if you show knowledge with what you are talking about. Talk about history and. . . . well you've seen what happens.

Here's another challenge to you: Meet some people here. Train with them. So far I've meet people from Nashville, Asheville, and Atlanta. I've attempted to meet with some of the heavy-weights here like MonkeySlap Too and SevenStar (but I couldn't work it into my travel schedule at that time). Empty your cup and see what they have to offer. Take a seminar or two. It will give you a perspective on your own art and people wouldn't be able to accuse you of being closed minded.

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D

BM2

01-21-2005, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D [/B]

Oh I feel the love now!

MasterKiller

01-21-2005, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character. It's called Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, not Indonesian Karate Quaterly. Maybe you're at the wrong forum?

Golden Tiger

01-21-2005, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

I was in the first Tai Chi 24 class that Master Sin taught and as JP stated, the background told to us was that it was a relatively new form that he had picked up from a collegue and was not part of the material handed down by Master Ie.

ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

Judge Pen

01-21-2005, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

Brad

01-21-2005, 08:30 AM

Yang 37 is also a name of Cheng Man Ching's short form... from the clip of SD's 64 form I saw, I don't think they're the same thing(unless one of y'all modified it at some point). The 24 combined form was created by a comitee headed by Li Tian Ji around 1956. It's mostly Yang style, with some Sun style influence. This was the start of the modern wushu taiji program, which latter included a number of forms combining techniques from the major styles.

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us!
Fred hates everybody though :p

Judge Pen

01-21-2005, 08:40 AM

PM sent Brad.

Oh, and it's too Bad Fu Pow/Au Lek or whatever the heck he calls himself isn't here too. He likes to jomp on this bandwagon.

Wharg0ul

01-21-2005, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen
By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

Judge Pen

01-21-2005, 11:40 AM

Wharg0ul, I've sent you a PM.

Golden Tiger

01-21-2005, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

Wharg0ul, if I can be nosy.......How long have you been at CSC and what rank are you?.....just wondering

MasterKiller

01-21-2005, 12:38 PM

I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

Wharg0ul

01-21-2005, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

Yer **** right I'd be proud to have first black. :D

To answer your question, GoldenTiger, I'm only a n00b. I've been at this CSC for 6 months, and am a lowly 3rd Brown. I've been progressing slowly, not testing until I had the material as dialed as realistically possible. There's no sense in being sloppy with martial arts. It continues to improve, of course, since I go through ALL of my material every other day.

Although the short time I've spent on this forum has led me to be more curious about the history of our school and it's Grand Master, It doesn't matter that much to me. The system has done great things for me, and I see the results of long-term practice constantly in the higher-ranked students of my class, and my instructor. I see good skill, character, health, and vitality. Since these same things are my goals, I figure I'm on the right path. Not to mention that the techniques I've learned work well for me in sparring, both within the school and without.

Masterkiller: let me apologise for my rude behavior, and some of my rather presumptuous statements. I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

Golden Tiger

01-21-2005, 01:39 PM

Thanks Wharg. 6 months...I seem to remember that point way back when. I must admit that that is definitely excellerated to be a 3rd brown but perhaps you are a quick study.

As for the rest of keyboard comando's you will encounter here, do as I do....take all they say with a grain of salt. Hell, most are pretty funny when they aren't slamming SD.

MK, I was like that when I got my black belt....then that puffy chest fell and made a puffy belly....

:(

Wharg0ul

01-21-2005, 01:56 PM

Yeah, I pick up on stuff fast...and I've played around with some other systems when I was younger (32 now). Most of my lower belt time was spent polishing and working on fine points. I tested in December to 3rd Brown, right before our 2-week holiday break.

It is common in our school for talented students to quickly attain brown belt, but there, the speed stops. A lot of time is spent at this rank further polishing your lower belt stuff, while still learning your new material. We also have the option to participate in the lower belt classes, thus further reviewing and polishing.

The REAL training begins at first black, however. Everything's pretty much building blocks up 'till then.

Starchaser107

01-21-2005, 03:48 PM

Ahhh.

Blessed!

BM2

01-21-2005, 11:07 PM

It took me over a year for me to get to brown. And my instructor would not allow us to test for black untill after 3 years and this was when the requirements were Tiger, Dao and the iron ruler or sai were all you needed from brown to black.
I taught for a while and you would just now be getting your blue and that would be the fastest.
In BJJ, it takes 10 years for black, around 7 for brown and about year before your first belt if you can demostrate the material you learned in class and in matches.
If I was teaching again it would be 1/2 time learning and drilling, 1/2 sparring. If it took four years or more to get your black, so be it. It took me 3 1/2 years and a lot less to learn. There is another 1 1/2 years of stuff to learn now.
Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p

Lokhopkuen

01-21-2005, 11:59 PM

Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

Judge Pen

01-22-2005, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

That's what I first thought of him too. :p

Judge Pen

01-22-2005, 06:47 AM

BM2

01-22-2005, 07:07 AM

David Jamieson

01-22-2005, 07:17 AM

shaolin-do is real shaolin-do.

it's not shaolin, it's not songshan shaolin, it's not sil lum and it's not siu lahm.

it is Sin Kwan thé's personally created style that he namde shaolin-do to pay homage to the foundation of all martial arts.

historically, Thé is a karateka who has expanded his repetoire over the years. so it's like a modified kempo karate thing.

In the end, is it the original? No. Nobody has the original. IN fact, there is no such thing as the original. Besides, would you want "the original"? would you want a model-T car instead of a new one? besides the collectable value, it is virtually worthless from a practical sense.

food for thought, but no one can claim the original shaolin, only a foundation and all asian martial arts have foundational aspects that are the same regardless of country of origin or style or pai or any of that. different expressions? sure, different flair? you bet.

anyway, will people ever stop wanting to be part of something that is illusory in the first place? train, don't train, do it with friends or in a like minded community.

everyone is for real and at the same time a mere blurry reflection of what was and Thé is certainly not the only kungfu / karate guy out there with a questionable lineage and history. I would say that that is the case with a great deal of martial arts instructors out there whether they know it...or not. :p

Wharg0ul

01-22-2005, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

I can't speak for Shaolin-Do in general, but ONE of the many reasons I settled at this particular school was the Fa jing and near flawless form demonstrated by some of our students.

What you need to realise is that Shaolin-Do is what you make of it. They show you the material, guide you on fine points, but it is YOU who needs to decide if you want to do sloppy kung-fu, or really put your spirit into it.

We have students who are PHENOMENAL matial artists. When you see them practice, you think "this is how kung-fu SHOULD look, and be". Thes are the students that I try to train with as much as possible.

We also have the slackers...ya know, the 16-year-old girls looking at the ceiling the whole time, looking like constipated movie actors. I do not train with these people.

I don't want to say "our school is differant" because I'm sure that's been said by many....but I do have to say that my school does not seem to fit the shaolin-do image, and were it not for the fact that our GM is Sin Kwang The', I would not have even known that it WAS SD.

We also have students from several other systems who have moved in to stay with us. Their training seems pretty consistant with ours.

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.

If anyone even wanders into Colorado Springs, feel free to visit our CSC and sit in on a class. You may be surprised.

Brad

01-22-2005, 10:50 AM

It's one of those things I'd have to see to believe... The two high up instructers I've seen videos of just weren't very good(Sin The, & Mr. Mullins). I mean, they seem to have some martial arts skills, but not in what they were trying to perform. Reminded me of my dad(an old Tae Kwon Do blackbelt) when he does Tai Chi. He's a great Tae Kwon Do fighter and can still whoop me pretty good, but his tai chi isn't that good. He's still a Tae Kwon Do guy trying to do a tai chi form, which is the impression that I get from watching Shaolin-Do people. It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

Zenshiite

01-22-2005, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by SimonM
There is no heaven and hell.

Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

Judge Pen

01-22-2005, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by BM2

One of JP's instructors should really put out a Hua or Long Fist, as those are my favorites, on the web.

They may put part of a Hua on their site, but not the entire form.

Judge Pen

01-22-2005, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.

Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

Judge Pen

01-22-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Brad
It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, and it's a legitimate criticism. In my experience, the higher-ups in SD start to focus on a set of material and that material may strat to pick up the subleties that are often lost on the basic practitioner in that area. But without the decision to really focus on one set of material, they can bleed together and look alike--a real problem in SD and any other school that teaches parts of different styles.

SimonM

01-22-2005, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by Zenshiite
Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

Some forms of buddhism do refer to the existence of "pure lands" where individuals can go on a fast track to enlightenment in a future life. These are similar to - but different - from heaven. They are most relevant in "pure land" buddhism, a sect I tend to disagree with on several key points of faith.

As for hells, you must remember that Buddhism tended to tack its system onto the framework of local religions. Local pre-buddhist religions through central and east asia included many versions of the underworld. Thus Buddhism in those areas also included an underworld. In those sects of Buddhism (and you must remember that Pure Land - the sect I disagree with is the most populous sect of Buddhism in Japan and one of the most populous ones in China) that pay attention to the "Pure Lands" (I do not) these underworlds tend to take on a more "hell" like feel.

In Chinese Buddhism the Heaven refered to is usually the heaven of the celestial bureaucracy; not exactly an afterlife of any sort. For a strong example of the interaction between Buddhism and local faiths read "Journey into the West" or "Monkey" by Wu Cheng-En.

I was raised in a western buddhist household. That meant that rather than my education in Buddhism including Buddhist specific metaphysics and ethics along with Chinese/Japanese/Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian metaphysics it was Buddhist metaphysics and ethics along with European Atheism. As I was raised by Athiests who had in turn been raised by Universalists my specific cultural bias is one to disbelieve the notion of an afterlife.

Everything moves in cycles; what happens now has happened before and will happen again. As such I find it hard to believe in any final, eternal home for the soul - the Western view of Hell. So I deny the existence of hell.

That being said, I am willing to allow that someone who is too bound into the aciton of Samsara may find themselves trapped in an incarnation full of even more illusions and suffering than the incarnation which those of us who are alive today are accustomed. For them that incarnation may very well seem like hell. Is that the same thing? I think not.