Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kung fu fan]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

[GeneChing]

Shaolin-do real? Here's what's real. There's a little search button at the bottom of the page. Reset your window so you can see all the posts from the beginning and plug in Shaolin-do. You'll get plenty of leads. Plus check out the main forum since there's an active thread on this topic there.

Since you're new, we won't chastise you for starting yet another Shaolin-Do thread, but please, don't start any more.

[MonkeySlap Too]

No, it is not Shaolin kung fu.

[Shaolinlueb]

dont listen to them. chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage....... :o :p

[David Jamieson]

lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

chewbacca knew what he was doing and sin the is teh ownerage.......

:confused: :confused:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Siu Lum Fighter
:confused: :confused: http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Oh, Chewbacca! You mean Su Kong Tai Tjin the wolf man himself. I'll admit that he must have had some beastmaster type skills. But is Shaolin Do really original? I mean, they wear gi's and have a karate style ranking system for peets sake.

And 900 forms?! Just like at Omei and other schools, it's traditionally accepted that there were ten core forms and then all of the offshoots from those.

[Judge Pen]

SD is original, but I can go out and make up my own stuff and call it JP-do and it would be original JP-do, right? It's exact origins are subject to much debate (Gene's "search" idea is a great one.) We don't need yet another thread on it's history and origins. The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. The number of forms--heck I don't know what a "form" is and what GM The knows and doesn't know. Could it be creative accounting? Maybe, the only way I would know is if I counted him doing the forms.

Do a search, read all the debate and PM me if you still have questions. Otherwise these threads start to get ugly and redundant.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
The reasons for the Japanese trappings have been debated ad nasium with nothing proved. Actually, I proved the law outlawing Chinese Martial Arts in Indonesia was passed in 1965, which sort of puts a kink in the whole SD timeline.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29825&highlight=Indonesian

[Judge Pen]

Actually you proved a "national" law passed at that time. We weren't able to determine if there were local ordinances or regional bans were in effect prior to 1965. I actually e-mailed Davies and he did respond, but he didn't have any specific information on regional bans but indicated it could be a possibility. Where did I put that e-mail. . . .

[MasterKiller]

Now now...don't be a revisionist. :p

Why would a group of CMA practcioners, dedicated to preserving Shaolin Martial Arts from the Fukien Temple, stay in one city that banned CMA and made them alter their Shaolin traditions when they could simply move to another city and practice freely?

[Judge Pen]

I'm not being a revisionist, we talked about that topic when you mentioned the law. And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.

And wouldn't it be easier to wear a gi than to move to a different city? :)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed. Lack of specificity is the incriminating factor, not a saving grace.

[Judge Pen]

I'm just playing the hand that is dealt. :p

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere.

My sole contention, is that i think the historical claims of SD are complete BS, and that from what I've seen, there is no actual CMA in SD - it looks like Karate, no matter what CMA 'style' they are doing.

It could have been that Sin The' learned a karate/kun tao hybrid, then took a page from John C Kim and grafted on a bunch of stuff he didn't know or understand.

It is the inherent disingenuosness and outright falsehoods used to sell thier lessons that bugs me.

Do the search, this bores the cr@p out of me....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Actually, I buy the SD story about the uniforms - there is plenty of CMA groups that adopted JMA trappings during this period. I've written about this ad naseum elsewhere. What time period? Post 1965? The SD claim is that Ie Ching Men (or whatever) adopted the gis when he came to Indonesia, which would have been pre-1925 (maybe around 1905). I don't dispute the claim that they wear gis because of the law; I dispute the claim that the tradition goes back as far as SD says it does.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SD never specifies what type of discriminatory law forced the change. Heck, for that matter they don't specify when they changed.


Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

[norther practitioner]

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia.

I knew there was a reason I liked you... and it wasn't all the SW crap.

seriously, are we going there again?

[Judge Pen]

I hope not.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i agree wit one of u guys about the forms..i forgot who and to lz to go back and read..who cares bout the uniform..seriously..it jus clothes..but there forms look like crap!..lolz so freaking ugly!!!..so karate/taekwondao like!
doesnt look nothing like shaolin(da one i study) or any hung gar/clf forms or anything like that..so ugly!!!! and for sure it doesnt look like wushu
lolz i was laughing so hard when i was watching some of there animals form..lolz SO UGLYYYYYY...AHH AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
how about we take them guys to li peng shaolin competition if he decides to hold it agian..and see how they do....=)

[Vash]

PK;

You should be assraped by the devil for typing like that.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

do u want to hate on my typing too??
the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)
but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

[Vash]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
do u want to hate on my typing too??

Hate on . . . .? You are not ghetto. Your spelling sucks. Your grasp of English is non-existent. And you're not ghetto. Hell, people from the ghetto don't talk like that, you complete and utter tool.


the last guy who hated on my typing made a big fool out of him self..=)

I doubt it.

but u seem cooler..so i will play along wit u..do u wat to assrape me??..=D =D

No. I want the devil to ass rape you.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

no one said i was ghetto...i never said i was ghetto..dis is jus da way i type..dis is jus the way i talk
i agree..my spellin do suck..my gramma aint good....i ait da best student in my english class either..."people from da ghetto dont talk like dis"..exactlly..dat why i aint ghetto..so why do u keep bringing up ghetto cuz i never said i was ghetto in the first place or trying to be ghetto or anything
u dont tink da last guy who hated on my made himself look like a fool..let me try to find the post and u read ur self
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32307
there go read..and look stupid dat guy looked wen he tried to insult my writing
o and this is quoted from gene "Calling someone down on their grammer is ridiculous here, sort of like calling someone down because their sparring gear is too gaudy colored."
soo BOO YA IN UR EYE

[Vash]

And your sparring gear is too **** pink.


For PK:

Dat's Just Da Wa I talk1!1 (http://www.wiggaz.com)

[Pk_StyLeZ]

ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Again, none of the SD literature specifies when this change would have been made. They just say after Ie moved to Indonesia. How long after is not detailed. While that may seem dubious it doesn't prove it any more false than true.

Man, there's a lot more to attack about SD than the Japanese uniforms which, at least, have some grounding of truth in Indonesia. The gi argument is just a piece of the concerns about ALL the Japanese cultural connections, which in turn is directly related to the legitmacy of Sin's lineage claims to Shaolin.

Ie was born in 1880; At some point, he killed between 9 and 11 Chinese Army guards and was eventually forced into exile in Indonesia in either 1910 or 1928. CSC says 1910, SD says 1928. I have no idea why you guys disagree on this point.

At any rate, he was teaching Chinese Martial Arts at least 37 years before the only documented Chinese cultural ban (we currently have evidence of) in Indonesia was inacted. He opened a public school and taught for 37 years....and then one day changed his uniforms, terminology, and ranking system and everyone looked the other way?

Sin The' started training in 1950 when he was 7, so we know Ie was AT LEAST teaching by then, which is still 15 years before the ban.

Sheeeiiiit, Sin The' himself came to America 1964....a year before the ban was enacted. Besides...wouldn't training with Chinese weapons alert people you were learning a Chinese art?? :p

I also have no idea why CSC claims Ie died in 1968, and SD claims 1976. Or why CSC claims Sin The is Ie's grandson, and SD claims they are unrelated.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by Pk_StyLeZ
ummm..i ama stop my self and not say anything else..before i get my self banned..cuz i never read the rules(and i was reading something about some people got bannned on another post so ya)..and i dont know wat can be said or cant..and i dont really want to be ban from here..so i ama let u go and enjoy ur life..cuz da last comment u left me..was jus plain.....GAY
have a nice life

These are for you buddy:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-10-11&res=l

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-07&res=l

[MonkeySlap Too]

MK,
Your date argument (1964) pretty much makes SD look completely bogus. However, you need to consider the syncretic nature of Indonesia. The Indonesians as a culture are highly adaptive, and sometimes a superficial change is adequate to satisfy most as a change. The laws against CMA and Chinese language also require Indonesian citizens of Chinese decent to have Indonesian names. The adoption of Bahasa Indonesia required the generic Chinese term in Indonesia (kun Tao) be replaced with a bahasa word (Silat). Which is why you see CMA called 'Silat' even though it isn't 'Silat' in the specific sense.

It was also common to see blending of CMA, JMA, and IMA in certain circles, because there were strong traditions of holding back (See Draegers "Weapons and Fighting Arts of The Indonesian Archipelago") - it is possible that this is the root of SD. But I doubt it based upon the technical skills I've seen from SD people.

All this aside, I'm convinced that SD is a fraud perpetrated by Sin The'. He is either a jovial con man whose great conditioning and decent karate skills allowed him to con unknowing Americans, or he's the biggest freaking idiot in the world and actually beleives his own stories. In either case, why would you want to follow him?

The footage of him moving was the clincher. While i have seen Kun Tao players do, say a mantis set that was obviously made up based on something else, it still had the content of that something else. SD just looks bad to me.

[Sin The']

Sin The's says the true value in this thread was the discovery of this page. (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/)

[Golden Tiger]

Yes, I am still out here. I got a bit bored so I figured I would catch up on what was happening here in the world of keyboard sparring.

Anyway..... The video clip that MK is refering to is not one of our forms. Actually, it is bits and pieces of a few of them that Master Sin did for a video trailer that he made to send to a movie company. (Insert your comments as you see fit)

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Doesn't change the fact that he moves like someone who doesn't know CMA.

[Wildwoo]

The moves come from Tang Lang Chien, Tang Lang Tse Dju and a few others. They are not from the Mantis forms that he began teaching a few years ago.

Now, whether you like the way it looks or not, thats up to you. Just wanted to explain the origin of the clip.

Is'nt Tang Lang Preying Mantis? I am confused and a littlel nausie.

WWII

[Ralphie]

wow, haven't visited this site for a while, and yet the more things change...

[pest]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
lets not forget all the other styles that are of shaolin heritage as well:

Hung Kuen
Choy Li Fut
Wing chun
Preying Mantis

subsets of these and many more.

My understanding was Praying mantis was created by a monk named wong long and brought in to shaolin because of its efficiency :confused: Please correct me if im wrong.

[trilobite]

Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

[mr.marshal art]

Originally posted by trilobite
Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train.

AMEN
-mr.marshal art

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by trilobite
Dear Jesus.

Put this to rest.

No one really cares, and if you do, you're wasting your own effing time.

Shut the fark up and train. Did you turn 15 yet? Get any cool Power Rangers for your birthday?

[Fu-Pow]

Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

uuuuugh waaaaaa

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Since this is a SD bashing thread I at least had to get a post in here somewhere.....

Hope you enjoyed it. :D ;) :cool:

This was your most enjoyable SD bashing post to date Fu Pow.

[Meat Shake]

rofl....
holy sh!t... blackpeopleloveus.com...
Thats some funny sh!t.

[yu shan]

I have met and trained with you. And you are straight-up with SD. I`m empressed with your Teachers openness to allow you to test the waters, this is a good thing. How do I say this... once you pick up a new form, is it incorporated into SD? I only ask this because of the hundreds of forms you guys and gals have. BTW, how is your knee doing? Anytime your in Music City, bang me a call... doesnt hurt the knee to do hand drills :D

[Judge Pen]

Any form I learn from another source is mine and does not become a part of SD. I've heard that some advanced students went to China and Indonesia with Master Sin The' and learned from some of his contemporaries, as they called them, over there and some of those forms are now taught. 99% comes from Master Sin and, at one time his brother. I don't know of any instance where a teacher picked up a form that was then passed off as an SD form. It's possible, of course, but I don't know of any instance.

For instance, Master Sin just taught out a BaGua dao form (I didn't learn or see it). According to him he learned it when he was 18 and put about 70 hours into polishing it before he taught it at a seminar.

As for Nashville, I'm not dating that girl there anymore, but I can plan for a special trip any Saturday I'm open. It will have to be after my knee surgery though as my weekends are all tied up until then.

[Fred Sanford]

To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
To answer the original question. No it's not for real.

you get 2 snaps and a twist for staying on topic :o :D ;) :p

[BentMonk]

Shaolin Do is as real as any other art. It has great instructors, good instructors, and mediocre instructors just like any other art. Neither is all the debate about material and lineage exclusive to Shaolin Do. Read ANY Wing Chun thread and you'll see that. Go to a school and check it out. If you like it stay. If not, go somewhere else. If your sole basis for oppinion on anything is what you read on the internet, you will never get a complete picture of what you're interested in. Besides, the trolls around here get whiny without a good SD thread to play on once a month. Peace.

[omarthefish]

No.

Tis is not about a lineae debate. WC people arue over wo learned a more complete sytem or wo's version is better.

Te Saolin Do tin is completely fabricated.

And I am not tryin to be etto. Certain letters are no loner workin on my keyboard.

[cerebus]

LOL! And for a minute there I thought you'd been possessed by the spirit of blooming lotus!! :p :p :p

[Golden Tiger]

Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser.... Yeah, and I bet some really old Chinese men will pull them aside again and tell them that they are practicing the old way, just like when they were young...:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Round and round this thread goes; where it end. . . Please let it end. I'm dizzy.

Seriously Omar, go and check them out, ask questions etc. Mk, I never did e-mail Coach He on that. I figured that even if she did say something to that effect, it could be easily discounted by some as "just being polite."

[Fred Sanford]

Once we can all just agree that shaolin-do is not for real then it can all end.

[Judge Pen]

That's the dig, Fred. It's for real something. For real shaolin kung fu, for real kung fu, for real kung tao, for real karate, for real kempo, for real made up AMA, for real BS. . . . That's the question.

Even then, can it be learned and taught effectively? Can people fight using it? Does it have value as a system even if it's not what some people say it is? I appreciate your strong feelings on it, and we could argue till the cows come home but nothing will be resolved. People are going to believe what they want to, right?

[Fred Sanford]

I think the whole lot of y'all have been conned and I'd imagine it's a bit hard to accept. tragic.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Omar, If I am not mistaken, Master Sin and a group of SD students will be visiting Xi'an next year on their trip to China. I also think that they will be doing some demonstrations at one of the local schools. Feel free to visit and test your theory that SD is not real. Should be a real crowd pleaser....

Master Killer just may be riht but if he isn't...how exactly am I supposed to test tis "theory"? A death match? You do realize that what's beein disputed it the whole Su Kon Jin story and their alleed link to Shaolin. They could be really good figters and really cool to watch but they still would not be real shaolin.

But rest assured..if they come to Xi'an I WILL see them in person and I will even try to bring my Shifu along.

Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake. He trained at a temple that hadn't had monks in it for 200 years. They think all the internal arts of northern China are part of Shaolin. Nothing about their story makes sense. "Shaolin" as a home of Chinese gong fu had been dead since the late Qing dynasty and all the monks there now are those that were either hired or invited back.

If you enjoy the training...fine.

You will proably even learn some really nice Kenpo Karate to defend yourself with. Nothing wrong with that. I don't know what else to say on it.

[mr.marshal art]

Know what you know.
Know what you don't know.
Know the difference.

i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

[MonkeySlap Too]

Anybody want to take up a cololection to buy Omar a video camera?

I'd take odds on the BaJi vs. SD match, but i'm not sure how to time tenths of a second...

[Judge Pen]

Nice post Omar. Let me know what you think when you watch them. And try to get names of the performers that you watch.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Their story has more holes than a screen door. The monkey man is wearing a western suit in a pre-industrial China for gods sake.

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here (http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Sun%20Yat%20Sen.jpg)
wearing a western suit.

[MasterKiller]

I would like to point ou that the famous revolutionary Sun Yat-Sen, a contemporary of Su Kong Tai Djin, is pictured here
wearing a western suit.

Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Sun Yat Sen was the founder and first president of the Chinese Republic. He was born in 1867 and died in 1925. Whilst studying medicine in Hong Kong he took part in a revolutionary plot in 1895 and upon its discovery fled to England. He was captured in 1896 by the Chinese Legation in London and held prisoner until his release was demanded by the Prime Minister. In 1905 he founded the China Revolutionary League in Europe and Japan and played a large part in the revolution of 1911.

Did Su Kong ever visit England, per chance?

Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. "

So who knows? I certainly wasn't there.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by mr.marshal art
i like your sig. reminds me of the ancient riff:
those that know seem not to know,
those that don't pretend they do...
-marshal

I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:

Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.

But mine is from the Analects, except I think I slightly modified the last line because I couldn't think how to translate it more accurately without making it really long and unwieldy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on the topic though....since it's so much fun!

Aside from what has just been mentioned about Sun Yat Sen's time in England, yes, it's true they were starting to adopt western clothing in that time. But Plaid sportcoats (as The "Monkey King" is pictured wearing" were still a long ways off.

"Western Clothing" of the era included things like....hats.

Or sunglasses.

And western clothing was still basically only worn by the aristocracy or anyone else with the cash to go and study abroad.

But mainly....ponder these 2 words: Plaid Sportcoat.

[mr.marshal art]

Originally posted by omarthefish
I'm not sure where you got that one but it sounds like maybee a loose translation of the Tao De Jing passage that says:
Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know.


i found the quote in a copy of the tao te ching. i don't remember who translated it.
your translation is more interesting.
-marshal

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
Well, according to this (http://english.people.com.cn/200409/14/eng20040914_156951.html)
" A shred of new life emerged between the 1920s and 1930s. Exhibits of that period are dominated by suits and hats of western styles, one-piece dresses stitched with flat beads, and wool-velvet overcoats. Palm-sized lotus shoes for women gave way to high-heeled leather shoes. " Yeah, and Su Kong supposedly died in 1928, at the age of 79. You saying he's between 71 and 79 in that picture? Besides...he was in Indonesia by that time, not China, remember?

[lxtruong]

How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179.

Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
How could you possibly tell what age he is, with hair covering his face? He could be 79 or 179. You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?
Also, from what I know, Su Kong was not the one that fled to Indonesia, it was Ie Chang Ming that fled. My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

[Judge Pen]

I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
You ever see a 79-year-old that had naturally dark hair?


I don't hang around 80 year old men. Do thier eyebrows and armhairs change color? No idea.

Originally posted by MasterKiller

My bad. Between SD, Temple Kung Fu and Shaolin Kempo, sometimes I get my fake Southern Temple systems confused.

Wow! What a zinger!

[brothernumber9]

There was a coach/Sifu that demonstrated at NACMAF in 92 or 93. His name excapes me (I think surname was Xia) but I think if anyone else was there they would also remember him, and maybe his name. He was in his seventies then and had jet black hair. He performed a tai ji form, a baat gua form, and a hsing yi form back to back to back. He was also famous for having defeated a russian in a public lei tai match after the russian had beat up a few locals and was publicly slandering Chinese people.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've never seen a 79 year old with that dark hair, but I've also never seen another 79 year old with that genetic condition either. I thought his coat was pinstripe not plaid...

Pinstripes are just as out of place.

And on the hair issue....Brotha9......

People die their hair.

My Shifu is in his mid 60's and has a full head of black hair but you can tell it's not died because IF you are close enough, you can see it's not completely black. There are white hairs here and there just like I have if you look for them.

I've not seen anyone in their 70's YET with dark hair. In another 5 years or so I may see....but so far I think my current Shifu holds the record at about 63.

[Sin The']

Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Sin The'
Shao-Lin Do is so real it's unreal. It's all in your mind, not the airwaves or electrons. Free your minds of this unsanity and the fist will follow. Put away your doubts of my ancestors along with your SUVs and Luke Skywalkers for Sin The' will illumine the true way.

:D

[Songshan]

Well, I have read the threads checked the internet in regards to Shaolin-do. To answer the question is Shaolin-Do real? Yes. Is it real Shaolin? No. With respect to anyone who trains in Shaolin-do I must say that I am convinced that it is martial arts but not in the sense of it being directly a descendent of the Songshan Shaolin Temple where the historical roots of Shaolin are based out of. I will say that there are probably hundreds of abled "martial artists" studying shaolin-do (meaning that it's not to be called fake). I just don't agree that it has direct lineage to the Shaolin Temple.

I base this decision out of the history and "katas" (mind you a japanese term) that are listed in some of the Shaolin-do web sites. I view Shaolin-do as mainly a karate oriented blend of various styles of martial arts. Absent from the "katas" list are traditional Shaolin kung fu forms (Tong bei chuan, Da hong chuan, mei hua chuan, etc.). I didn't even see traditional excercises like Jin Gang Quan, Yi Jin Jing or Xi Sui Jing listed. :confused:

I must have seen at least 50+ forms listed for the Shaolin-do system on one of those websites (and yes the 90 form debate we seen here on these forums). The reality is that most of the Shaolin Monks were only true masters of one maybe two forms tops (but had knowledge of many). I know the debate rages on about other styles of kung fu being directly called "Shaolin" and yes I am sure it will go on. There are those too that say the monks in America are fake and so forth. In some sense I often say to myself when will all these debates end? Martial Arts is such a broad term that I believe every and any style has its place so long as its theory and application have been tested. Lets face it.....anyone can do just about anything and call it a martial art. I often fail to see why so many seek to control the term "Shaolin" and exploit it. Perhaps I clearly understand the trademark battle Shaolin is in with Abbot Shi Yong Xin

That being said... I by no means consider myself a master, expert or a self proclaimed disciple of a monk. I am just but a fish in the ocean. I post this with respect to the Shaolin-do practitioners and by no means do I have any intentions of degrading the art. :)

[cerebus]

Actually they claim to descend from the Fukien Shaolin temple and to have 900 forms, not 90. Other than that, yeah I agree with you.

[Shaolinlueb]

well put songshan. well put.

[pedro_sanchez]

hello all. I am currently a moderator at another martial arts website. I greet you all respectfully. Just a brief background on my martial arts. I trained in boxing for quite a number of years, and I am currently a student of Shaolin 5 animals, Jeet Kune Do and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

On the other website, we have had more than a couple of run-ins with the Shaolin-do goof troop. They have been nothing more than trolls who contributed nothing to our website. They claim, until they are blue in the face that they are Shaolin. Even thought they wear Japanese Uniforms, use the belt ranking system and use Japanese terms for thier techniques. Through some great research from one of our other moderators, we have managed to find a website with some video clips of Shaolin-do training. The videos were all sped up to make it look like they had superhuman speed. A pretty lame attempt at that. They would even speed up a very badly coreographed "sparring" session. The members of Shaolin-do were so disrespectful and so not like a student of Shaolin. They call themselves senior students but act more like pre school children. The resorted to poking fun at another moderator whose 1st language wasn't english. The made fun of his grammar and spelling. When in fact there was nothing wrong with his grammar. The Shaolin-do students were just being petty.

My wish is not to start a new stay on this forum on a negative note, but I have had more than a few run-ins with these clowns. When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by pedro_sanchez
When I saw a thread about them here, I was surprised. Do a Search and give yourself an annurism. There are 100s of threads about them. :D

[norther practitioner]

with the Shaolin-do goof troop

I like this one... :D

No disrespect to JP, but that was funny.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Just to offer a little balance on the subject I've got to say that in my limited exposure to Shaolin-Do practitioners I've found them to be hard working, good people. While the origins of the art may be questionable the practitioners (mostly Sifu level) I've met are much better people than some of the posters I've seen here. I visited a local school to see for myself and was impressed with the effort they put into their training. I can't speak on the value of the techniques or legitimacy of the sets but the players were very passionate about their training. And I have yet to see any SD guys on this site acting childish and insulting to other. Then again I haven't followed the past threads so I could be wrong.

(stepping down off soapbox)

[BentMonk]

Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

Thanks for the respect you've shown in this post. I try not to make generalizations about other schools, however these folks came as ambassadors of SD. Lets just say the members of the other forum were not impressed by their first impressions. It is however, refreshing to see such tolerance and respect shown by the members on this forum. Well from what I've seen so far.

[BentMonk]

"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

Hopefully they will budz. And these practitioners of SD actually came from Kentucky.

[yu shan]

I have no problem with SD, let them make there mark. If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO

[BentMonk]

"If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO"

You speaks da truth Yu Shan. :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by yu shan
If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide. :eek:

so true MK. they can always hide by me then :o :p

[Judge Pen]

You go and have knee surgery and see what happens to these threads. . . :D

A couple of comments:

1. Pedro Sanchez: I think I've read the thread that you were discussing and I'm sorry if some SD students didn't represent themselves well. However, that can be said for any style that has people that feel passionately about their art. I've been flamed away just because I study SD and not say BJJ, but I don't judge the art based upon the rantings of an anonymous internet "ambassador."

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

3. Yu Shan and Hua Lin: Thanks for the kind words about SD. I wish more people shared your perspective. I like to think that I work hard regardless of arguments of lineage and origin.

4. MK and shaolinlueb: Speaking of which, I have a new girlfriend. . . .

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.


Yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you wear doesn't dictate what style you train. I do feel that what style you train dictates what you represent. As it has been said a hundred times before, "Shaolin" is a very broad term that just about any style of MA can pretty much say they are Shaolin based. Lets face it, the real Shaolin vs none Shaolin, real monk vs fake monk debates probably don't mean a hell of a lot to the average martial artist. There are tons of martial artists that probably read these posts and say why the heck does the name Shaolin matter anyway? It does mean something to the ones like myself that do train in Shaolin that are not just learning Wushu. I grow tired of reading about "Shaolin is just wushu" stuff. There IS a difference. It's just up to you if whether or not you want to search for the answers.

Getting back to the post....the belt ranks, American expectations, and the japanese term association changes what real traditional Shaolin represents. I believe when you change something, modify or add new things the traditional aspect is lost. I see this in many "Shaolin" named styles. I recognize some of the moves as Shaolin kung fu but the rest was either added or modified. I don't see a problem with certain styles changing certain things...it just shouldn't be called Shaolin. So now that Shaolin is in a middle of a trademark battle it will be interesting to see what comes out of it. :p

[Judge Pen]

I see SD has having roots in shaolin, but almost any style can say that. So it's called shaolin-"do" (which is a japanese term but pronouned and means the same as tao a Chinese term.) So they name acknowledges that it is a way of shaolin. Is it the only way? Apparently not. Has it been modified? All you have to do is look at the material and how it is performed to know the answer to that. It's changed and evolved differently. It has incorporated techniques and forms that aren't traditional shaolin. But, in my experience it is effective for art, health, and martial ability. It is kung fu that has evolved through a path from China to Indonesia to Kentucky. And things change with time.

[canglong]

The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by canglong
The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

canglong, you are talking about a complete study of shaolin. But several here practice shaolin martial arts without the religious aspect included. They can be seperated into parts. I'm not making an argument that shaolin-do is pure shaolin. I just think that one can study shaolin martial arts without practicing Chan Buddhism.

[canglong]

Judge Pen,
yes I agree that's why I started my post with The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all. I do think there are some that study part and believe they study the whole though.

[Judge Pen]

Fair enough. Although I'm interested in Buddhism and Taoism philosophy, it's not a religion I would practice. I don't think anyone at SD says they study all of shaolin (just the martial part). The breathing and mediation that is taught is taught as a martial and health perspective; not a spiritual element.

[canglong]

Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated. I am not familiar enough with SD to discuss it in length my remarks were to simply help clarify the definition of Shaolin in this discussion.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by canglong
Judge Pen,
Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated.

My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

[canglong]

No apologies necessary just trying to share and grow like yourself.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.

Most do.

It just happens to be an agnostic religion. Also, heterodoxy is no problem in China and in most Chinese religions.

Many westerners are attracted to the philosophical system presented within the Buddhist religion and therefore tend to think of it as simply a philosophy, however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity. You can take the philosophy of Christianity without the religion as well....it's called ethical humanism. Buddhism has a cosmological system, many formalized systems of prayer and spiritual advancement. There are formal hierarchical organizations and every other defining characteristic of "religion".

The case for Daoism as a philosophy is stronger. There is clearly regligious daoism as well but there is a much clearer tradition of daoism as simply a view of the way the world works as presented in the Yi Jing. The "Dao De Jing" ironically is not titled, "The Classic on the Dao" but rather, "The 'Sutra' of Virtue". 'Jing' is the Chinese term for religious texts. It CAN refer to philosophical works but the first association is religion. And the 'de' in Dao De Jin is not denoting the possesive. It is another character: 'virtue' ..as in 'Wu De'. The compoung word "Dao De" means: Virtue or 'morality'.

But daoism lacks Buddhism's degree of formal systemization and deity worship.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by omarthefish
however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity.

That's what I thought. My point was that I was attracted to the philosophy of Buddhism without it's core spiritual components. I always identified it as a religion primarily and a philosphy secondarily.

[Wharg0ul]

Threadstarter: Yes, it's "real" Kung-fu. It's an excellant system, weather you listen to the trolls or not. It's not as "pretty" as some other systems of Shaolin, but it has purpose, and martial application. If the majority of schools are scheduled like the one I belong to, there is a LOT of time spent on sparring and application study.

You will also find traditional excersise and meditation techniques, a wide range of weapons, and develop a wonderful range of versatility in fighting techniques and tactics.

It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

[SimonM]

I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.

Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SimonM
I'm a Buddhist.

Buddhism is my religion.

The Lord Buddha is not a god.

There is no heaven or hell.

People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion. Well, since the standard textbook definition of religion is " the service and worship of God or the supernatural" and since Buddha was not a god, and did not speculate on the supernatural, you can kind of see the disconnect, can't you?

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Do you hear that siren? It sounds like a Whhhhaaaa-mbulance.


Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Thank you for proving my point SO elegantly. :rolleyes: Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Shoo. Go practice some "kata" or your official Shaolin Fukien 24-step Yang Tai Chi that was actually invented as a wushu form in 1956.

your confusion regarding our material does little to credit your arguments, and less to merit your negative attitude.

[MasterKiller]

I'm not confused over your material.

Tai Chi Ar Se Se Tse. That's your 24-step form.

Everyone in the rest of the world knows it was invented in 1956. Everyone from an SD school thinks it comes from Shaolin. Shaolin Bagua...Shaolin Xing Yi....Shaolin Taiji....hahahahahahhaha

[Wharg0ul]

Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you. So who taught it to Sin The'?

[lxtruong]

This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

Tell me please... for my own personal edification... who created the form you call Yang with 37 postures? Where was it created?

[Judge Pen]

Whe I learned Tai Chi 24, my teacher told me that it was a recently created form by various tai chi masters. Sin The did teach it to his students, but didn't claim it was from shaolin--he said it was the most popular tai chi form in the world so he taught it to his students as well. (according to my teacher anyway--I don't know what other SD schools may claim).

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by lxtruong
This thread will never die.

Just give up, people will have their opinons about shaolin-do regardless of what we say here. Most of the people here are set in what they think, so arguing is just blowing so much empty air.

I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible.

Topics about SD, or ANY other MA system do not need to be turned into 60-page flame wars. It's rediculous, childish, and it's not a very good representation of the character of kung-fu practitioners.

I've read MANY books on chinese martial arts, and so far my own training has been as consistant with what I've read as can be expected considering the cultural differances and diversities in China. If I see a chinese practitioner performing Chen style tai chi, it looks almost identical to the form I've seen (but still can't remember all of....what a brain-killer that is...). Weather or not our history is in question, our forms and techniques are legitimate.

I have better things to do than argue on forums all day. What I would LIKE to be able to do is discuss my system here without being bombarded by trolls. Is there enough mutual respect between martial artists on this board to allow for that?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I agree. I do however object to the fact that any thread brought up concearning SD immediatly becomes a target for flamers and trolls. It's disrespectul, and not necessary. Opinions are fine, everone has them, but there's no need to constantly interject it everywhere possible. YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
YOU ressurected this old thread. Deal with the outcome, cry baby.

This is exactly what I mean of course. Further, I don't see how being polite and respectful classifies me as a "cry baby". To me, and I'm sure most others, it signifies having basic manners and a mentality beyond that of an adolescent's.

[MasterKiller]

You can politely whine about not being able to discuss SD all day long. It still makes you a cry baby.

[Wharg0ul]

the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars.

It's not a problem with SD, it's a problem with moderation of these boards.

If I were for a moment to sink down to your level of maturity, I might respond with "I know you are but what am I??" :p

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
the thing I don't understand is how some people have managed to hang around this forum for so long. Almost any other forum I've been to would ban people who contribute nothing but flame wars. Well, then, check around. I regularly contribute to this board a wide and diverse range of topics concerning Chinese martial arts technique and history. Check yourself, n00b. You're fresh meat dabbling in dicey subject. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Wharg0ul]

Nice attitude. That alone is a fantastic contribution to teh kung-fu mentality :rolleyes:

/end sarcasm

Honestly, man. people should be able to post on these boards without having people like you come along and bash at them with your bully-stick.

Why is MY CHOSEN SYSTEM a dicey subject? how about you just take your opinion, and your nasty attitude elsewhere. I suppose you also have such bigotry issues in other areas, maybe race or religion?

Check your ego, sir. And check your tongue.

[Starchaser107]

Wharghoul , please contact Captain Pickaxe or Meatshake via PM and ask them thier opinions on shaolin do.

In my opinion, you can practice whatever you want to practice.
This is a public forum, with a gathering of numerous chinese martial arts teachers and students alike.
There are certain accepted facts about the origins of various styles, well documented lineages , and historical accounts.
When something comes along that seems incosistent with not only the facts , but also visually does not resemble what it claims to be , it should be expected that it will be challenged.

That's all there is to it. MasterKiller is entitled to his opinion as you are to yours. This is neither a flame war nor a cause for banning someone.

Why is it moderation thats at fault when you don't get your own way?
May I remind you that it is you who practice the style that the populous deem "sketchy", yet no moderator has attempted to ban you.

control your emotions , and try to use some reasoning and logic.
Most people here don't adhere to blind faith. If someone asks you to proove your assertions, why not oblige them instead of getting heated.

[Wharg0ul]

Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here.

Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school.

It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?

This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war.

I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved.

This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character.

It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way.

[Starchaser107]

Seek and you will find.
Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here.
In very rare cases some of us are even invited by staff to be here.
We are a collective group of people from various walks of life, from various sides of the planet.
If you came here and you've noticed that there is a stong discontent for shaolin-do then maybe there is a good reason for it, maybe there isn't.
Some people here have better "people skills" than others, but that's just a fact of life my friend. It's a puddle that reflects the pond of life.
There are Shaolin Do contributors to these board. Who have decided that it's better to stay than to leave.
And why not?
There is much to be learned from harsh criticisms as painful as it might be.
I understand that it is important for you to be loyal to your school.
some people vehemently oppose your schools claims, others like me play more of an Agnostic role.
Embrace it and try to learn.
Questioning things is a part of the process.

[Wharg0ul]

Constantly berating someone's school every time it is mentioned in a thread is neither constructive or useful, and is not conductive to an environment where people want to be.

Maybe some of you don't realise what a hostile, elitist environment you have here because you are used to it. But one would think that with good kung-fu, the internal aspects would be enough to prevent this kind of behavior from learned students. That is not what is exibited here, and it reflects badly on our art as a whole.
I've seen posts on these boards where people felt that they would introduce a new school tho the community, only to be insulted and flamed right off the forum.

It's disgraceful.

Maybe if someone points out that the Emperor is naked, there will be a change, but I doubt it.

[Starchaser107]

while i understand what you're saying,
it's still a two sided coin.

[mortal]

"Excuse me, but I'm not the one raving here. As I've stated above, I've been nothing but polite here."

Agreed. but your machine gun speed reponses give people the impression you are hyped up.

"Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but there's no reason to hijack threads just as an excuse to run down someone else's school."

I think masterkiller is just trying to steer a newb in the right direction. At the same time trying to open your eyes to this art you study. He is actully doing you a favor.

"It's about mutual respect. THAT's why this board needs moderation. Kung-fu practitioners should be able to come to this board and not have to worry about being persecuted about what they practice. You'll notice that I just started posting today. I've been reading these forums for a looong time now, but never posted anything because I was reluctant to be flame bait to the trolls here.
Is that right? Should someone be afraid to post on a public forum because of the nasty attitude of it's participants? Isn't that what moderation is supposed to PREVENT?"

Why would a nasty attitude make you afraid to post? Just debate your point. Ignore posters that just seem like they are attacking you personally.

"This board is a hostile, disrespectful mess. MY first post on these boards was to answer a question as to the location of the CSC in Denver, and even that thread became a flame war."

You think it is bad here? Go to bullshido.

"I didn't come here to prove or disprove anyone's claims about their system, or school, or history. I didn't come here raving and insulting others. But this is the treatment I have recieved."

Unfortunatly that happens here and in real life. My teacher was a monk and when I came on here everyone said he was fake and I freaked out. I knew he was skilled. That should have been good enough, but I argued and got defensive. Wasting my time and energy. Examine who is posting and what their past contibutions to the forum have been.

"This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character."

Everyones art here is very different. Everyones character is different. I don't take kungfu to be enlightened. I train to improve movement and fight. Does nothing but waste your mental energy and time.

"It's also not a place I would like to be. It's a shame, but I think I'll stick to books and schools, and let this forum go it's own way."

Don't run away. Stand and argue your points or move on to another thread and ignore this one. Which by the way you brought back to life after months of dormincy.

[GeneChing]

Kung Fu Magazine is not paying it's forum members to be here. That would be the day, wouldn't it?

We offer this forum as a public service, and a place to help promote our wares. For me personally, it's been a great place to send all those questions I get, since almost every one of them have already been answered here or can be answered here by one of many of our illustrious members. The forum is free, with the stipulation that we can revoke membership at any time, and edit or delete posts at our pleasure. We generally don't exercise this right unless provoked.

Shaolin-Do is always heated here. Just check our archives. A Shaolin-Do person who comes here steps into the hornets nest, but they have no one to blame but themselves since the archives are readily available to anyone, even non-members.

Have fun and carry on! :cool:

[BM2]

I have been saving up all this cyber money Gene sends to me via PMs and now I find out it's worthless.
Masterkiller, take a look at the quote at the end of my reply.















































.

[Judge Pen]

This board is like life, and in life you are going to get all kinds of mixed nuts whether you are polite to them or not. Now the romantic notion is that people who share a love for kung fu should treat each other differently, but really that's unrealistic in life, and it's certainly unrealistic on an internet board full of anononimity (sp). MK and I go round on these points often, but only when someone new comes along and raises the issue. The rest of the time we debate movies, football, women, and technique . Talk about techniques and no one will attack the art that you study if you show knowledge with what you are talking about. Talk about history and. . . . well you've seen what happens.

Here's another challenge to you: Meet some people here. Train with them. So far I've meet people from Nashville, Asheville, and Atlanta. I've attempted to meet with some of the heavy-weights here like MonkeySlap Too and SevenStar (but I couldn't work it into my travel schedule at that time). Empty your cup and see what they have to offer. Take a seminar or two. It will give you a perspective on your own art and people wouldn't be able to accuse you of being closed minded.

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D

[BM2]

Originally posted by Judge Pen


Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us! :D [/B]

Oh I feel the love now!

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
This is what people who WOULD be members of this forum and WOULD buy this magazine see, and it's not a very good representation of our art, our our character. It's called Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine, not Indonesian Karate Quaterly. Maybe you're at the wrong forum?

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Our Yang contains 37 postures, our COMBINED tai chi form is 24 postures, and we know where it was invented and by whom, thank you.

Your personal crusade against our school is flattering, but don't you have something more constructive to do?

I was in the first Tai Chi 24 class that Master Sin taught and as JP stated, the background told to us was that it was a relatively new form that he had picked up from a collegue and was not part of the material handed down by Master Ie.

ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
ok, what Yang 37? I am only aware of 64. Do you close out at the Cloud Hands posture or what?

By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

[Brad]

Yang 37 is also a name of Cheng Man Ching's short form... from the clip of SD's 64 form I saw, I don't think they're the same thing(unless one of y'all modified it at some point). The 24 combined form was created by a comitee headed by Li Tian Ji around 1956. It's mostly Yang style, with some Sun style influence. This was the start of the modern wushu taiji program, which latter included a number of forms combining techniques from the major styles.


Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us!
Fred hates everybody though :p

[Judge Pen]

PM sent Brad.

Oh, and it's too Bad Fu Pow/Au Lek or whatever the heck he calls himself isn't here too. He likes to jomp on this bandwagon.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
By some counts, our 64 form can be counted as 37 (duplicate postures, etc.)

In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

[Judge Pen]

Wharg0ul, I've sent you a PM.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
In the book it's listed as a 37 posture, on the FLYER, it's listed as 64. I guess it depends on how you count the postures, and if you lump the duplicates together, or what-not.
I learned the Louhan Short-forms in 30 steps, for example, when in reality there are 108. But they were tought to me in larger "chunks" to speed training.

Wharg0ul, if I can be nosy.......How long have you been at CSC and what rank are you?.....just wondering

[MasterKiller]

I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I predict he just got his first black belt and now walks around with his chest puffed out.

Yer **** right I'd be proud to have first black. :D

To answer your question, GoldenTiger, I'm only a n00b. I've been at this CSC for 6 months, and am a lowly 3rd Brown. I've been progressing slowly, not testing until I had the material as dialed as realistically possible. There's no sense in being sloppy with martial arts. It continues to improve, of course, since I go through ALL of my material every other day.

Although the short time I've spent on this forum has led me to be more curious about the history of our school and it's Grand Master, It doesn't matter that much to me. The system has done great things for me, and I see the results of long-term practice constantly in the higher-ranked students of my class, and my instructor. I see good skill, character, health, and vitality. Since these same things are my goals, I figure I'm on the right path. Not to mention that the techniques I've learned work well for me in sparring, both within the school and without.

Masterkiller: let me apologise for my rude behavior, and some of my rather presumptuous statements. I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks Wharg. 6 months...I seem to remember that point way back when. I must admit that that is definitely excellerated to be a 3rd brown but perhaps you are a quick study.

As for the rest of keyboard comando's you will encounter here, do as I do....take all they say with a grain of salt. Hell, most are pretty funny when they aren't slamming SD.


MK, I was like that when I got my black belt....then that puffy chest fell and made a puffy belly....

:(

[Wharg0ul]

Yeah, I pick up on stuff fast...and I've played around with some other systems when I was younger (32 now). Most of my lower belt time was spent polishing and working on fine points. I tested in December to 3rd Brown, right before our 2-week holiday break.

It is common in our school for talented students to quickly attain brown belt, but there, the speed stops. A lot of time is spent at this rank further polishing your lower belt stuff, while still learning your new material. We also have the option to participate in the lower belt classes, thus further reviewing and polishing.

The REAL training begins at first black, however. Everything's pretty much building blocks up 'till then.

[Starchaser107]

Ahhh.

Blessed!

[BM2]

It took me over a year for me to get to brown. And my instructor would not allow us to test for black untill after 3 years and this was when the requirements were Tiger, Dao and the iron ruler or sai were all you needed from brown to black.
I taught for a while and you would just now be getting your blue and that would be the fastest.
In BJJ, it takes 10 years for black, around 7 for brown and about year before your first belt if you can demostrate the material you learned in class and in matches.
If I was teaching again it would be 1/2 time learning and drilling, 1/2 sparring. If it took four years or more to get your black, so be it. It took me 3 1/2 years and a lot less to learn. There is another 1 1/2 years of stuff to learn now.
Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p

[Lokhopkuen]

Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I'm sure that although you SEEM like a .....well, I'm sure you're probably a good guy. :p

That's what I first thought of him too. :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

Our site doesn't have any vids of my teachers up yet, but they are supposed to at some point.

[BM2]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

Can not say that I haven't seen this myself. Most likely due to the number of people that I have known but really we are all not nice people ;) And you thought I was talking about Fa jing?
The lack of it, at least in my humble opinion, may in part be due to the rapid learning of a form then learning of another then learning of another.
One of JP's instructors should really put out a Hua or Long Fist, as those are my favorites, on the web.

[David Jamieson]

shaolin-do is real shaolin-do.

it's not shaolin, it's not songshan shaolin, it's not sil lum and it's not siu lahm.

it is Sin Kwan thé's personally created style that he namde shaolin-do to pay homage to the foundation of all martial arts.

historically, Thé is a karateka who has expanded his repetoire over the years. so it's like a modified kempo karate thing.

In the end, is it the original? No. Nobody has the original. IN fact, there is no such thing as the original. Besides, would you want "the original"? would you want a model-T car instead of a new one? besides the collectable value, it is virtually worthless from a practical sense.

food for thought, but no one can claim the original shaolin, only a foundation and all asian martial arts have foundational aspects that are the same regardless of country of origin or style or pai or any of that. different expressions? sure, different flair? you bet.

anyway, will people ever stop wanting to be part of something that is illusory in the first place? train, don't train, do it with friends or in a like minded community.

everyone is for real and at the same time a mere blurry reflection of what was and Thé is certainly not the only kungfu / karate guy out there with a questionable lineage and history. I would say that that is the case with a great deal of martial arts instructors out there whether they know it...or not. :p

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

I can't speak for Shaolin-Do in general, but ONE of the many reasons I settled at this particular school was the Fa jing and near flawless form demonstrated by some of our students.

What you need to realise is that Shaolin-Do is what you make of it. They show you the material, guide you on fine points, but it is YOU who needs to decide if you want to do sloppy kung-fu, or really put your spirit into it.

We have students who are PHENOMENAL matial artists. When you see them practice, you think "this is how kung-fu SHOULD look, and be". Thes are the students that I try to train with as much as possible.

We also have the slackers...ya know, the 16-year-old girls looking at the ceiling the whole time, looking like constipated movie actors. I do not train with these people.

I don't want to say "our school is differant" because I'm sure that's been said by many....but I do have to say that my school does not seem to fit the shaolin-do image, and were it not for the fact that our GM is Sin Kwang The', I would not have even known that it WAS SD.

We also have students from several other systems who have moved in to stay with us. Their training seems pretty consistant with ours.

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.

If anyone even wanders into Colorado Springs, feel free to visit our CSC and sit in on a class. You may be surprised.

[Brad]

It's one of those things I'd have to see to believe... The two high up instructers I've seen videos of just weren't very good(Sin The, & Mr. Mullins). I mean, they seem to have some martial arts skills, but not in what they were trying to perform. Reminded me of my dad(an old Tae Kwon Do blackbelt) when he does Tai Chi. He's a great Tae Kwon Do fighter and can still whoop me pretty good, but his tai chi isn't that good. He's still a Tae Kwon Do guy trying to do a tai chi form, which is the impression that I get from watching Shaolin-Do people. It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

[Zenshiite]

Originally posted by SimonM
There is no heaven and hell.

Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by BM2

One of JP's instructors should really put out a Hua or Long Fist, as those are my favorites, on the web.

They may put part of a Hua on their site, but not the entire form.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

BM2: with respect, this is not BJJ. Once black is attained, there are about 15 years of training ahead just to reach 5th black, or Master in our system. The material does not stop coming....ever.


Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
It's like the basics they are versed in, don't match the style(s) they're trying to learn. I could learn a 7 star mantis form, but because most of my basic training is in something else, the form isn't going to benifit me as much as a hardcore mantis guy. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, and it's a legitimate criticism. In my experience, the higher-ups in SD start to focus on a set of material and that material may strat to pick up the subleties that are often lost on the basic practitioner in that area. But without the decision to really focus on one set of material, they can bleed together and look alike--a real problem in SD and any other school that teaches parts of different styles.

[SimonM]

Originally posted by Zenshiite
Didn't Buddha talk about heavens and hells?

What about the notion expressed in some Buddhist paintings that monks who abuse animals will be tortured in a hell?

Peace.

Some forms of buddhism do refer to the existence of "pure lands" where individuals can go on a fast track to enlightenment in a future life. These are similar to - but different - from heaven. They are most relevant in "pure land" buddhism, a sect I tend to disagree with on several key points of faith.

As for hells, you must remember that Buddhism tended to tack its system onto the framework of local religions. Local pre-buddhist religions through central and east asia included many versions of the underworld. Thus Buddhism in those areas also included an underworld. In those sects of Buddhism (and you must remember that Pure Land - the sect I disagree with is the most populous sect of Buddhism in Japan and one of the most populous ones in China) that pay attention to the "Pure Lands" (I do not) these underworlds tend to take on a more "hell" like feel.

In Chinese Buddhism the Heaven refered to is usually the heaven of the celestial bureaucracy; not exactly an afterlife of any sort. For a strong example of the interaction between Buddhism and local faiths read "Journey into the West" or "Monkey" by Wu Cheng-En.

I was raised in a western buddhist household. That meant that rather than my education in Buddhism including Buddhist specific metaphysics and ethics along with Chinese/Japanese/Tibetan/Nepalese/Indian metaphysics it was Buddhist metaphysics and ethics along with European Atheism. As I was raised by Athiests who had in turn been raised by Universalists my specific cultural bias is one to disbelieve the notion of an afterlife.

Everything moves in cycles; what happens now has happened before and will happen again. As such I find it hard to believe in any final, eternal home for the soul - the Western view of Hell. So I deny the existence of hell.

That being said, I am willing to allow that someone who is too bound into the aciton of Samsara may find themselves trapped in an incarnation full of even more illusions and suffering than the incarnation which those of us who are alive today are accustomed. For them that incarnation may very well seem like hell. Is that the same thing? I think not.

[BM2]

Wharg0ul, your enthusiasm and attitude is admirable. I hope you the best. JP has more time and rank than I do, he is modest.

The point I failed to make was a first deg. BB in SD has the basics down and is ready to learn. A BB in BJJ is a bad MoFo. A purple is a bad MoFo too as they have about the same time in to be a black belt if they were in another martial art.
I would rather see at a minimum of 3.5 years for a BB in SD.
But what others do at their clubs is their buisness and they know best on how to run it as they are the ones paying the bills. My opinions are just mine. If someone was telling me how best to run my club it would surely **** me off.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

I was not aware of this :)

In that case, BM2: Do you find that BJJ and SD are good partners as far as cross-training? I ask because as much as I LOATHE grappling, it is my opinion that grappling is a weakness in my art. There are several good BJJ schools in my area, and the opportunity to cross-train is almost too good to pass up. Thoughts? Suggestions?

AND....thank you for the complement :) /bow

[Ralphie]

If you want a good bjj place to go to, I train here www.bjjboulder.com Amal puts out a lot of quality competitors, and the environment is very friendly. I believe Amal is opening a south Denver school soon, too.
Cheers,
Steve

[BM2]

The only reason I do BJJ is that it is fun! It isn't for some just as striking arts are not for others. If it isn't something your interested in then I wouldn't do it to round out the small amount of ground work in SD. But at the extremly reasonble rates you pay for SD you could do both, you would be very busy to do both.

[Wharg0ul]

That's my main problem....the time to do it. maybe in a couple years.....

Ralphie: when I test in Boulder, I may just stop and see your school. They have a sweet web site. Thank you :)

Now....time for Sen Jow....ow....

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
[B]Have to say I admire the way you haven't let mk get too much under your skin. themeecer would be proud
:p /B] Wearing blinders is easy. Removing them is the hard part. ;)

[BM2]

Ever notice that the ones who try to force their religous beliefs unpon others never are interested in listening to the others religous beliefs.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
Ever notice that the ones who try to force their religous beliefs unpon others never are interested in listening to the others religous beliefs. Yep. That's my whole point. LALLALALALLALALALA Sin The' is the Shao-Lin Grandmaster LALALALLALALALA

I mean, at least you guys don't have a super-secret message board no one outside of SD can look at. That would be...I dunno...sad.

[BM2]

Man I need to proof read before posting!
So MK, what is your opinion on the UFC reality show?

[MasterKiller]

Haven't seen it. What channel, SPIKE TV?

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by BM2
UFC reality show?

i saw the previews for it, i think it is gonna be stupid, just like any other reality shows

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I stayed up and watched and it sucked. Too much drama, not enough training/fighting. Reality TV bites it big but it's filling up the air time.

I gave up on the Next Great Champ or whatever that boxing one was called.

[MasterKiller]

I'm more into Pride and K-1 than UFC, anyway.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Lokhopkuen
Now I have known a few Shaolin do people all of them nice people but not one practitioner I have meet understood Fa jing/ Manifest energy. As with many Karate people I meet, their stances were superficial and had little or no connection to their hands through the waist. With that said and no offense intended is there somewhere I can see a video of a Shao-lin do Master who can demonstraite Fa jing? Better yet I'd settle for a strong sense of enemy in a practice form.

'With all due respect.

Peace

A perfect example of this would be Master Eric Smith and his Candle seminar. In it, he explained how using total body linkage (Fa Jing) could manifest incredible power. Putting out the candle (from a distance) requires an almost instant linkage from the foot to the palm.

Trust me (or not), it is very powerful.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wharg0ul, BM2 has more experience in SD than any other person that posts here other than maybe GT. He cross-trains in bjj.

Going on 30 years....

Uh ohhh....BM2..didn't know you were doing BJJ. Better work on my grappling skills.

[Fred Sanford]

Oh, if you think MK is bad, wait until you are dealing with Fred Sanford! He hates us!

Sounds about right. I am still totally amazed how frickin stoopid all youse SDers are. Wow.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
A perfect example of this would be Master Eric Smith and his Candle seminar. In it, he explained how using total body linkage (Fa Jing) could manifest incredible power. Putting out the candle (from a distance) requires an almost instant linkage from the foot to the palm.

Trust me (or not), it is very powerful. Um...you mean this parlor trick?:rolleyes:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/shaolinhistory19.avi

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Um...you mean this parlor trick?:rolleyes:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/shaolinhistory19.avi

Yes, it could be considered a parlor trick. Then again, so is breaking concrete, wood or what ever.

But to put the candle out from a distance (best I have seen is about 2.5- 3 ft), it requires more focus than most can do. Of course, it is all physics but it is a great way to improve your full body linkage. In essence, you are compressing a column of air (not fanning, thats cheating) and pushing it. To do it effectively, the motion from the heel to the palm must happen in an instant. Smaller amount of time= more impact. (the actually formula eludes me at the moment but its the opposite of how an air bag works. the airbag slows your deceleration and decreases the force)

So yes, its a trick. It is also a way of gauging your snap and power.

PS. That vid won't load on this computer so I am not sure which one MK posted so I am speaking in general terms.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
PS. That vid won't load on this computer so I am not sure which one MK posted so I am speaking in general terms. 1990 Demo off this page:

http://www.geocities.com/parker-duvall/student/

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Looks like their computer kung fu isn't to swift. I can't get them to play correctly even with the DIVX Player.

[sean_stonehart]

HLL... try Real One... but it flips the clip upside down

[Judge Pen]

I always liked the "suspended break" at that site. I haven't tried it myself, but it looks impressive.

The candle thing is simple physics, but as GT pointed out, it's not as easy as it might look. Does it equal "fa jing" in the true sense of the term? I don't know; as least no one is saying he is shooting his chi. :D

And BM2, I may have more rank, but you have been around for a lot longer than me. I just didn't take as many years off as you before I started training again!

[Wharg0ul]

Just a quick question. If it is indeed air that blows the flame out....how is it that one can blow out the SECOND candle in a line of three without blowing out the first? A subtle change in angle of attack, maybe? Because the air isn't going to go around the first candle and then strike the second.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Just a quick question. If it is indeed air that blows the flame out....how is it that one can blow out the SECOND candle in a line of three without blowing out the first? A subtle change in angle of attack, maybe? Because the air isn't going to go around the first candle and then strike the second.


I have never seen that one done and I would have to see it first. I have seen it done with a jar over it . (they always seem to wait till the O2 runs out in the jar to shoot chi at it though...hmmmm)

And no JP, its not the mystical chi that does it unless you could call the focus and directing of energy (the snap) "chi". I have done meditation longer than some of you all have been alive and I haven't to date been able to point at someone and give them a "chi blast". (Not to say that it can't be done, just that I don't have personal experience with it).

[Brad]

Putting candles out with punches means you're good at putting candles out with punches. Yeah, tricks like that take work and focus, but it doesn't necesarilly translate to martial arts ability. Same with breaking boards and bricks. I think time spent learning these tricks could probably be spent in much more effecient ways of improving martial arts skill.

[Brad]

Ok, I downloaded the clips... kind of cheap tricks if you ask me :( He uses an open palm making it much easier(imo) to put out the flame. No root or strong waist movement required(though he does dramatize his movements a bit). Just quick hands pushing air at the candle.

[Brad]

Too bad the forms clips aren't working.