Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

I didn't think Taoist talked that much. No offense TTM, but I remember thinking to myself as I read the Tao Te Ching and some commentaries about it that I could never be a Taoist, because I like to talk and argue to much on internet forums....Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows Taoism would know that not everything is as it appears. Because you have a biased perspective and a preconceived idea of what I am saying you come to your own conclusions without asking me as to what I mean or what is meant by the words that I write......you may not be trying to offend me and you are not...but you are being judgemental in your passive aggressive way....

[tattooedmonk]

Well for one thing, I have never claimed to be "Shaolin". I haven't shaved my head, taken a vow of celebecy*, a vow of proverty, not taken a job so I could train 24/7. I did however, start taking MA classes to improve myself in a physical and mental sense and have taken what I have learned and incorporated it into my daily life.



Taoism sure isn't what I thought it was...:eek:






Wow! I take that as pointed toward my post and would return the favor but according to TWS, mine doesn't stink. :DIs this what you think being Shaolin is about?? if it is you have alot to learn ..maybe if you did some research you would know that this is not what Shaolin is...

Taoism is not what most people think it is and you are no exception and this is why you have the views and stand the position that you do...

[tattooedmonk]

Amen Tattooed Monk,
That is why most MA are just mediocre at best and although I am not the best in the world I feel Shaolin is more than a hobby , why dont these A/holes that practice about MA quit and let those who truly want to be the best they can be continue. then the quality of students would improve.. Would you want a surgeon to operate on your Heart if it is just a hobby. Kind of like Frist he was a good surgeon and now he is a meocre politician, Hell. Decide and do it , get in the water. As far as making it real what SD have gotten into your face TWS, that you "took care of"? For those who say MA is a hobby I F@rt in your general direction. KC:mad: I appreciate your support....

[tattooedmonk]

TTM - I feel your pain brother. Unfortunately you, me, and countless others were born a few centuries too late. You're right, MA practice of any kind should be a more integral part of your life than just a hobby. No combat art that I've ever heard of was originally designed to be a sport or hobby. However, we live in a world where EVERYTHING is for sale, and people will buy into the latest fad just to have one more expensive thinga-ma-bob to boast about. Every fitness center, gym, dojo, and kwoon has it's group of posers. Yes they're annoying, but they also pay the rent so everyone else can train. Do not misunderstand. I have made some of my dearest friendships through training. The difference is we socialize after class, not during. Fear not. Hard core training is not as nearly extinct as you might think. The UFC, K1, Pride, and some of the new MA movies are introducing the next generation to the fun of training hard. Another great thing about the next generation is that they are not as style prejudice as some of us were taught to be. They already see that all of us who train hard in the arts of combat are a huge family bound together by sweat and dedication. It doesn't matter what your art is or where it came from. What matters is how it benefits you. I tell my students not to focus on the behavior of others. I tell them to focus on how they can be a real example of living well in all areas of life, not just their MA training. I also try hard to practice what I preach. At the end of the day that's all any of us can really do. Peace, Love, and Happy Training to ALL. :DI appreciate your support

REALSHAOLIN it is not style biased and absorbs what is useful to sustain it and bring it to the next generation of practitioners.....

there are plenty of people that do it for hobby, sport , recreation, and a social activity .. I do not have problem with this... but when it goes under the guise of being one thing and you find out it is another and like you said the bills need to be paid if you are going to keep the school open..it is pretty disheartening..

.maybe if more people viewed it like us Shaolin ( Do),from a martial arts perspective, would not be viewed as a joke ...because even though Shaolin is a real martial art and people like it ...not many people take it seriously( especially MMA ,ufc/pride people, and hobbiest)..and that is the problem

[Mas Judt]

Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.
3. TWS has calculated the correct, but his best course of action is continue to be honest, factual, and train.
4. There are people on this board even more lost into the clouds of samsara than the SD crowd.
5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.
10. You will be happier, whatever you train, if you stay detached, find the joy in your pactice, and not fool yourself.

[Mas Judt]

".because even though Shaolin is a real martial art and people like it ...not many people take it seriously( especially MMA ,ufc/pride people, and hobbiest)..and that is the problem"

Perhaps this is not a problem, but a lesson.

[BM2]

I started watching the original "Kung Fu" on TV in 6th grade. It was magical to a 11 year old kid. Looking through the yellow pages not knowing anything about the MA I saw the pages filled with Tae Kwon Do Karate. Really there were different types of TKD and I decided if I was ever going to take lessons I would go to the one and only school that taught " Super Tae Kwon Do" as the others taught just the regular TKD. It said so right there in the yellow pages.
Fast forward past my slacker years aka teenage years and I take my first MA class two days past my 20th birthday. I took lessons because I wanted to learn those cool fighting moves. Didn't come to class to perserve any traditions but to learn how to fight like I saw on TV.
When I was walking around the Shao lin temple, I realized there was more than just learning moves. Seeing those deep depressions in the stone floor amongst other things gave me a connection that was greater than I had thought about before. And ,at the same time, I felt that I didn't belong, I was some sort of an intruder, a tourist taking photos.
We each have our own reasons for walking into class for the first time. Do we make it more than it really is later?
The different paths in life that each of chose may look strange from where we stand as we look around us. When we make light of other's choices it proves we don't know where we are going either.

[Judge Pen]

Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows Taoism would know that not everything is as it appears. Because you have a biased perspective and a preconceived idea of what I am saying you come to your own conclusions without asking me as to what I mean or what is meant by the words that I write......you may not be trying to offend me and you are not...but you are being judgemental in your passive aggressive way....

I wasn't talking about what you meant by the words--their intent or definition--I was pointing out that you say a lot of them (and often). That does go against my understanding of Lao Tzu's teachings, but I'm not a Taoist, so I suppose I don't really know enough about it to say.

Passive agressive? I consider it just being cordial. I wasn't disagreeing with what you were saying, per se.

[Judge Pen]

Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.
3. TWS has calculated the correct, but his best course of action is continue to be honest, factual, and train.
4. There are people on this board even more lost into the clouds of samsara than the SD crowd.
5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.
10. You will be happier, whatever you train, if you stay detached, find the joy in your pactice, and not fool yourself.

Good to see you around. Why the change in screen names?

[orion_steel]

The instructor of the Northridge school (J C )said that GMT thought of shaolin do as a business first and the art was like third or forth on his list of priorities.( making the movie was second )...how can this be?? seeing as if it was not for The Art he would not be in this business or TRYING to get this movie made.

well, even though this is hearsay i still have to make a comment. My comment is this "Dont get me started on that crappy movie stuff". :mad:

[shadowlin]

Things I have learned from this thread:

5. SD is certainly not what it claims to be. (most comprehensive, the original 'fighting' art, yadda yadda). It is a karate/kung fu off shoot from Indonesia that has it's own following. It's just a shame that they don't stick to what they are and be the best at that, rather than making ridiculous and unsupportable claims.
6. Apparently no one on video in SD shows a form the 'right' way. Even GM Sin, who accoding to all reports can do this. Yet no one can explain why.
7. What is good in SD is what will probably be stripped away by guys like JP who play well with others and see value in cross-training.
8. Cross-training in SD is not a way to 'put things back into SD', but to learn how they should be done. All you need to do is watch Sin The' to know they were not there in the first place.
9. Every organization has politics, and this alone is not a reason to judge a group.


It's been awhile since I posted here, and so far not much has changed. People still make judgments and claims without knowing anything about what they're saying.

This ^ is an example.

How, on Earth, can you read a forum and learn anything about martial arts? You can't. It's proposterous to say you can.

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

---------------
As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.

Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.

--------

As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.

That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING.

So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about.


----

If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism.

Taoism is not Shaolin, but they do have a lot in common. I don't think anyone who berates another's Taoist knowledge is worthy of being labelled a Sage, modern or rellgious. But that's an opinion. From my readings of the Tao, it very much molds to your individual philosophy, and that's why it's so powerful.

[orion_steel]

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

provable? how is that? In the words of Steven Colbert "I dont care much for Fact, i like truth".........

[Crushing Fist]

nicely put shadowlin...


I've heard a lot of stories from the China Trips, but have never been able to go myself. I'm not likey to attend the next one either :(


One story that sticks out in my mind was a combined demo our students did with students of a school in china. Towards the end One of the senior chinese students did a mantis form which was described as being very similar to ours, and then the head master (whose students I was told had never seen him demonstate a form before) got up and did Hsing I which I was told looked identical to the Five Roads we do.

I trust the story as it was related to me first hand by one of the SD masters who attended.




As for the politics... I used to think SD politics was bad until I came on here and read some of the Hung Gar, Wing Chun and other styles political/lineage flame wars.

Really, SD is mild in comparison.

[Judge Pen]

Why is it forbidden to share a form? If its the same as what other people do, then why is it a big deal to show it? For any discipline to validated then it must be subject to peer review. Of course it only matters if you seek validation (some do not and I can respect that) but if you are going to argue about the legitimacy, then you need more than second-hand information and hearsay.

Keep in mind, I believe that SD is valid. I believe its roots are deep in the shaolin temples. I also believe that it's a travesty to stick your head in the sand.

[Judge Pen]

As for the politics... I used to think SD politics was bad until I came on here and read some of the Hung Gar, Wing Chun and other styles political/lineage flame wars.

Really, SD is mild in comparison.

Ain't this the truth. . . .

[Mas Judt]

Shadowlin - as always there is more to something than what you ma be aware. The reception of Sin The' in China may not have been what you think... the Chinese are very polite, and in the course of good manners (especially towards people spending money), you'll find what is NOT said is very important as well...

Shaolin-Do is certainly not what it claims to be. Please go through my previous MonkeySlap posts ad naseum, as there is a wealth of evidence both first hand and anecdotal that firmly establishes this. Any cult-like love for the grand-mullet aside, it is you sir, who cannt support your claims.


Judge - I tried to get back in as MS2, but forgot my pasword, and the moderators ignored my e-mails, so... new ID. It's also an in-joke for the kuntao crowd...

[MasterKiller]

It's been awhile since I posted here, and so far not much has changed. People still make judgments and claims without knowing anything about what they're saying.

This ^ is an example.

How, on Earth, can you read a forum and learn anything about martial arts? You can't. It's proposterous to say you can.

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

---------------
As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.

Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.

--------

As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.

That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING.

So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about.


----

If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism.

Taoism is not Shaolin, but they do have a lot in common. I don't think anyone who berates another's Taoist knowledge is worthy of being labelled a Sage, modern or rellgious. But that's an opinion. From my readings of the Tao, it very much molds to your individual philosophy, and that's why it's so powerful.

bwahahahahahahahhahaa

Rule number 1: Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

[Crushing Fist]

bwahahahahahahahhahaa

Rule number 1: Don't drink the Kool-Aid.


Rule number 2: Don't use tired old clichés...



"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


:rolleyes:

[Mas Judt]

"As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos."

WRONG! Sin The' himsef is on video, and he looks just as bad as his 'masters'. I've met some SD 'masters.' All I've got to say is... put the Kool-aid down. Slowly. That's it. Very good.

The simple fact is you are lieing to yourself when you say this. I think Sin The' is very good at passing on the material as he does it. Whatever it is. But it ain't what he claims it to be. The grand-mullet moves just like his students, and please don't tell me he is 'hiding' anything - as he has obviously practiced very long and hard at moving poorly. That Mantis form he shows is as far from what makes North Mantis North Mantis as Karate is from North Mantis. Hmmmm.

[tattooedmonk]

well, even though this is hearsay i still have to make a comment. My comment is this "Dont get me started on that crappy movie stuff". :mad:I have been listening to it for the past 15years..plus I live in california( LA) and was close with master sin...so I suggest do not get me started on the movie crap!!

[tattooedmonk]

"As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos."

WRONG! Sin The' himsef is on video, and he looks just as bad as his 'masters'. I've met some SD 'masters.' All I've got to say is... put the Kool-aid down. Slowly. That's it. Very good.

The simple fact is you are lieing to yourself when you say this. I think Sin The' is very good at passing on the material as he does it. Whatever it is. But it ain't what he claims it to be. The grand-mullet moves just like his students, and please don't tell me he is 'hiding' anything - as he has obviously practiced very long and hard at moving poorly. That Mantis form he shows is as far from what makes North Mantis North Mantis as Karate is from North Mantis. Hmmmm.Master sin and almost everyone else does it like japanese karate and not like Chinese chuan fa( it is not kung fu..but it is a kung fu and can make you a kung fu tze...master of time and effort...or confucius) either way it is not done with the chinese flavor..but the art is almost purely chinese in origin

[godzillakungfu]

[

What we claim to be is, in fact, provable, has been proven, and no longer needs to be proven. What's funny is that all these centuries Shaolin and Taoist monks worked to elude and mystify the public. Grandmaster Sin followed that example even in America. In the early years, he wouldn't even announce the names or styles of forms, he simply gave them numbers (this was before his Master knew he was teaching Westerners). Now people still are made confused and stumble over not even the essences. He has managed to keep out the incompetent and egoistic, and the classes catch the rest of them.New story for me.

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. You know one of his(Jet Li) teachers is in the states. I met him he is a great guy. A friend trained with him your point?

When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else). 4th variation of this story for me.

Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. Again so do many others. DO you need links?
Many other arts do this to, doesn't help or hurt their history. USSD anyone anyone?


The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material. You aren't helping.

You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?Wow. I just wow.......

---------------
As for videos, there are people who do it right, and they do have videos. But we don't post them on the internet, because we don't particularly like the whole world to have free access to something we sweat our butts off to earn. In fact, we are forbidden to do it. You're watching videos from schools that are as reputable with us as with you, and judging all of Shaolin-Do. You don't even realize how embarassed we are sometimes to see these videos.
Not that our students are amazing. They are, like everyone else, busy people with real lives. But they aren't so vain as to release it to the world as if it were monk level work. We constantly condition and condition, practice and practice. The sheer volume of supremely difficult material and the limits in our lives are why we stay in Shaolin-Do. Growth is endless and we love that aspect.Please stop. To put bad ones up and hide the good ones is just silly. You realize this has entered you into the politics arena right?

--------

As for cross-training... Shaolin-Do IS cross-training. It's a collection of dozens of styles. Some of these styles are the origins of the world's modern gems, like Jui-Jitsu, Akido, Kempo, Wing Chun, etc... We're training in ancestor styles. You won't recognize it, and it's not Indonesian. Well, you'll recognize the Tai Chi and Pakua if you're any sort of researcher. I've got a book with Sifu Jerry Allen Johnson doing the same Pakua we released back in 1971 before anyone ever heard of Pakua. I've watched a video of Chin Man Ching doing our 64, just a lot faster. I've got videos of Chen masters doing our 83 in their own interpretive manner. Not to mention we've got the freaking original poetry to the forms that are hundreds of years old.
That's why it's Comprehensive. IT IS CROSS-TRAINING. No it isn't in the true sense.

So before anyone makes wild claims to understand exactly what is going on in Shaolin-Do, spend a few months or years actaully learning what it's about. Many have.


----

If you want a good idea of what Shaolin is, real the book, "Shaolin Grandmaster's text" I was uniquely surprised to find it very much a supplement to Shaolin-Do, albeit heavily biased towards Ch'an Buddhism. Do not read this book. Its history is more convoluted than SD. At least we know most of GMT's background. Also, there are more cliche's than a comic book strewn through out the book.

[Mas Judt]

There is a lot of Kun Tao in Indonesia - all with crazy histories and various levels of influence from other arts, wether IMA or JMA.

Take White Crane silat - it's a form of Nan quan - calls itself Silat. But thedse guys seem to lack fighting skills.

On the fighting side of things - there is Mustika Kwitang - a fabled "silat" style that is pure, unadulterated Nanquan. Old, hard fighting system from South China.

Just like here, there a fighting methods, health methods, nutty mystical methods, and every variant in-between. The linguistic games alone make understanding it all truly challenging. And in Indonesia, mash-ups of skills and concepts is a pretty persistent trend - especially since the culture is to not teach everything you know - players look everywhere to find something they can use. (when possible)

If the SD didn't make so many claims that were patently untrue - and ape other systems in the process, I don't think you'd get any grief.

I like to think that there is something good under all the lies, but that's just because I enjoy the whole IMA syncretic scene.

[The Willow Sword]

Do you know that when Grandmaster Sin and other masters visited China in 2001, they had dinner with the great teacher of Jet Li, Wu Bin? At that dinner, he asked (in Chinese, mind you) how old the masters were, and how long they'd been studying. When they answered, he was so astounded that he ordered his top students to take lessons from Grandmaster Sin, who declined to teach them because he would not give such an honor to new students (they'd have to go through the ranks like anyone else).

What MS2 replied to with respects to this deluded comment pretty much states that which is not said up front about those "trips" to china. I will not say anything more about it. Oh and FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.



Whenever our schools go to China, they follow GM Sin around with cameras and he meets with governors, the heads of Shaolin and other temples, and the leaders of the Chen village. The government sends an agent to watch our visitors with leary eyes because they know his influence on the public and also want to capture our material.

This is such a load of Horsecr@p.


You who make "knowledgable" claims against a man without knowing firsthand are like crows and starlings. Master Sin is like an Eagle. Why should an eagle stoop down to peck the ground with crows and starlings?

This is the kind of cult mentality that seems to permeate this organization, i have seen it first hand and it makes me laugh so hard. They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me. i had always treated SInThe' (giving the necessary pomp and circumstance respect in the face of the school dealings)as an equal and as a regular guy. But Outside the school setting it has always been an equal ground that i have taken with Sin The'. I remember after my 2nd degree BB test we all went out to that famed chinese joint in Lexington to eat and i sat across from SIn The'. we served tea to one another and just talked about nothing, (shot the sh!t, so to speak) some felt that i was not giving the proper respect and others have accused me of such "disresepct". mainly because i wasnt kow towing and treating him like some delicate peice of china. it still makes me laugh because i know underneath all that exterior of the SDA Realm that SIn The' wants to be seen and treated as a person and not some elevated god. I dont think SIn The' is a bad guy, i question the method and manner in which he has made a name for himself in this country with respect to the lineage and history claims. I think there is a certain amount of delusion when it comes to the Movie, like it is something that is right around the corner to be made and such,, but that "Movie" has been around the corner since 1986. All in all my disdain for SDA lies with the Austin School and The head teacher there. He lacks true integrity in my opinion and it showed with how he has dealt with me.
Maybe that was my downfall when i think about it. i didnt kiss ass and kow tow and have this jesus like worship you mentality. I am not a singular mind and i am certainly NOT a Follower(hehe well not anymore;) )

TWS

[MasterKiller]

What MS2 replied to with respects to this deluded comment pretty much states that which is not said up front about those "trips" to china. I will not say anything more about it. Oh and FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.

If you don't know who Wu Bin is, then you need to get out more.

[orion_steel]

They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me. i had always treated SInThe' (giving the necessary pomp and circumstance respect in the face of the school dealings)as an equal and as a regular guy. But Outside the school setting it has always been an equal ground that i have taken with Sin The'. I remember after my 2nd degree BB test we all went out to that famed chinese joint in Lexington to eat and i sat across from SIn The'. we served tea to one another and just talked about nothing, (shot the sh!t, so to speak) some felt that i was not giving the proper respect and others have accused me of such "disresepct".

i know what you mean and i agree. When ever we would go out to eat we were always on friendly informal terms. But, If you hear some of the higher up SDA people then they will say that GM Sin just wants to be a normal guy, but then again if you talk to some of the older guys who were around from the beginning then it really doesnt seem that he started out that way. Also, a lot of it comes from the fact that many of the masters want to treat him a certain way, which usually differs from other masters.....

[Judge Pen]

I treat all my teachers as friends and they treat me the same. Of course, I show respect to my friends too. They are teachers not Gods. I respect their knowledge and advice with regard to the martial arts. Other than that, they are people.

In class, I'll address them appropriately, but that's a different environment. Is this not the way it should be?

[The Xia]

Wow this thread is long lol. Is this KFM's longest thread? Just from skimming through, this seems like a very complex and convoluted situation. Would someone be kind enough to define Shaolin-Do in a nutshell?

[Mas Judt]

Pretty standard all around. I find the adoption of fuedal or confucian behavior patterns into martial arts training to be silly.

[Golden Tiger]

FYI Shadowlin? JET LI's TEACHER Resides HERE in the USA and happens to be HERE in AUSTIN TExas and is name is Li Jun Feng. HE teaches qigong and Taichi at the AOMA(Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin). He is a very polite but serious individual , and i have had the pleasure of meeting him. DOnt know who this Wu Bin is.

This is a good example of how there can be minor distortions. If I may, the event that Shadowlin is refering to was a trip to Master Zhao Chang Jun's school and then later to dinner with him, his teacher (Wu Bin(I assume) and his daughter to translate) Master Sin, and various other higher level students that were on the trip. Mr Wu asked how long each of those at the table had trained with M. Sin and hearing that the avg for the group was ~30 years, he was very impressed.

A few months after returning from the trip, Master Zhao traveled to LA and spent a little over a week staying at Master Sin's home (training or not, I never heard).

The Jet Li reference comes from the fact that Master Zhao has been the national champ since Jet LI went all famous and they trained together.


Things I have learned from this thread:

1. Judge Pen is a cool guy.
2. While GT may be a bit delusional in regards to SD, he is a straight shooter from his POV, and probably a pretty decent, hard-working sort. He speaks from his experiences and perceptions, but is probably a guy you could still hang with.


I can live with that. Wish I had made the cool list like JP though.:cool:

[The Willow Sword]

If you don't know who Wu Bin is, then you need to get out more.


Yes i do i guess. i just refreshed my memory and knowledge of Wu Bin. I also need to correct my previous statement about Jet Li's TEACHER, and say that Li Junfeng COACHED Jet Li when he was on the beijing wushu team as Li Junfeng was head coach of the beijing wushu team for many years.

There got that settled, Thanks MK,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,punk.;)


TWS:D

[Mas Judt]

Hey GT - there is still time to be cool. always time to be cool.

[Judge Pen]

You're cool in my book. Then again, I get along with most everyone. :p

[orion_steel]

I treat all my teachers as friends and they treat me the same. Of course, I show respect to my friends too. They are teachers not Gods. I respect their knowledge and advice with regard to the martial arts. Other than that, they are people.

In class, I'll address them appropriately, but that's a different environment. Is this not the way it should be?

that is because you are a free thinker. Many are not....and do not take the martial arts (or life) as an individual journey.

[B-Rad]

Jet Li's had multiple teachers... I don't know the exact chronology of who was with him when, and their official titles, but other than Li Junfeng, you have Ma Xianda (for fanzi quan), Wu Bin (the man in charge), and An Tianrong here in Ohio (coached basic skills when Jet Li was a child). Myself, my old teacher, his teacher, and a few of my classmates had dinner with Wu Bin and the Beijing wushu team in 2000 and it was pretty cool. They were all extremely nice and get excited when they see Americans showing enthusiasm for martial arts, no mater how good or bad you are.

[kwaichang]

All in all my disdain for SDA lies with the Austin School and The head teacher there. He lacks true integrity in my opinion and it showed with how he has dealt with me.
Originally Posted by The Willow Sword
They treat SIn as some GOD when in fact he is an ordinary person just like you and me.

You know WS that is where you are wrong. The Grand Master Sin Th"e has spent his life training and passing his knowledge to those who want to learn. Doing what he does is not easy. But as you have said above you cant seem to get past your problems with Master Joe. You know all people have faults and I am sure to you Master Joe does too. I truly wish you could put this behind you I know or think I know how you feel but why slam something that, YOU TRAINED IN SO HARD FOR SO LONG JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE MASTER jOE IS PETTY.
Get over it KC

[The Xia]

I went to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaolin-Do
From first glance, one thing I find suspect is that Su Kong T'ai Djin mastered everything in the Shaolin temple and is therefore the "first ever Grandmaster of Shaolin."
Would you guys say this article is accurate?
And heres a challenge for you guys who've been debating the details back and forth.......is Shaolin-Do real Shaolin Gongfu?
And are they really making a movie on Sin The?

[BM2]

Oh GT this one's for you :cool:
Really, I just try to stay off lists, the're not always good:o

Where do these wild azz SD stories come from?

[Golden Tiger]

Where do these wild azz SD stories come from?



Uhhh, could you be a little more specific? There are so many you know...;)

[SimonM]

Taoism is about finding the balance between all things.I am modern Taoist. I am into the philosophy and not the religion...anyone that knows

Come on down to China. There are all sorts of Taoist temples replete with Taoist gods and Taoist priests who would be happy to disillusion you. Taoism is a complex religion. It's not just "trying to find a balance"

If you have read a dime store copy of the dedaojing and think that makes you a Taoist because you think that the bagua diagram is neato you have a lot of research still to do.

And even a "philosophical" taoist (IE: someone who disregards basically all of Taoism excepting the Dedaojing and the Zhuangzi), perhaps even especially a "philosophical" taoist, should recognize that there is no shame in ignorance. After all Laozi was in favour of a "natural" state that could be described as ignorance in contrast to Gongzi's preference for higher education.

[SimonM]

Again so do many others. DO you need links?
Many other arts do this to, doesn't help or hurt their history. USSD anyone anyone?



I've met with several Shaolin monks but I'm **** sure I'm not a high mucketymuck lineage holder.

[tattooedmonk]

Come on down to China. There are all sorts of Taoist temples replete with Taoist gods and Taoist priests who would be happy to disillusion you. Taoism is a complex religion. It's not just "trying to find a balance"

If you have read a dime store copy of the dedaojing and think that makes you a Taoist because you think that the bagua diagram is neato you have a lot of research still to do.

And even a "philosophical" taoist (IE: someone who disregards basically all of Taoism excepting the Dedaojing and the Zhuangzi), perhaps even especially a "philosophical" taoist, should recognize that there is no shame in ignorance. After all Laozi was in favour of a "natural" state that could be described as ignorance in contrast to Gongzi's preference for higher education.did I say that it was" just" that?? I mean really ..there are so many things that I have posted and you want to pull that out of context and then sit here and "TRY" to give me a lesson? Why?? your interpretation of what a philosophical Taoist is limiting the usage ...

.....and if you know any thing about the Tao you know that there is no limit to the usage of the Tao ,Taoist, or Taoism..maybe you should stop reading dime store copies of the tao te ching and find yourself a teacher

.... in the context of what I posted it is about balance between all things ..that is why they use the yinyang to symbolize Taoism, the Tao, and Taoist..

.if you do not like the path I walk you do not have to follow

[humbleman]

Master Hsiangs style of teaching says to me, " I love my students as I would my own sons and daughters. I give you the hardest discipline not to hurt you, but because I will do anything I can to help you succeed and keep you safe when the going gets real." Grandmaster Sins style of teaching says to me, "The knowledge I impart to you is a sacred trust. The more you show me that you are worthy of that trust by the discipline you apply to yourself and your practice, the more you will learn." I think both styles are great. Could that possibly be a reflection of that "small vehicle-great vehicle" philosophy doodad I read about somewhere? Also, I've never had an experience with a teacher worthy of the name acting like a god. Not in S.D, anyway. I read that the tantric hindus and buddhists see it somewhat differently, and perhaps also certain Kun-Tao styles. My limited understanding is that when you refer to someone as a "Guru", you are giving them the reverence due a living God. Not in the religious sense that western religion uses. Personally, I think it's a lot of bull. Just because she can control the individual hair follicles in her head and make me levitate when I touch her, she thinks she's Miss Smartie Pants.:p :p :D

[humbleman]

... who wished me well with the hsing-i, thanks. There's a tantric blessing that means "I salute the God within you." If I knew the Sanskrit word, I'd extend it to you all.:D

[humbleman]

I found it. Namaste, y'all.:D

[humbleman]

...if she was acting like something, she deserves a freaking Oscar. Those who know me and/or her will get the inside joke.:D :D :D

[godzillakungfu]

I've met with several Shaolin monks but I'm **** sure I'm not a high mucketymuck lineage holder.
Yes, uhmm your point?

[shadowlin]

Grand-mullet... wow, that's original, and so adult. Next are you going to insult his mother?

Like I said. Crows and starlings. I have personally ridden with Grandmaster Sin and what strikes me is his overwhelming hospitality, graciousness, and class. He will never insult or belittle you or anyone, and certainly never ever makes claims or talks down about other styles. EVER. In fact, he has a black belt in Judo.

You think I honestly expected you to believe the stories? No. you already don't believe them, of course you won't.

All I'm doing is proving how low on the karmic totem pole you are in comparison.

---

I find the use of the word cult interesting. Fundamentalists use it to describe minority groups that exhibit close fraternal bonds and share common threads of allegiance. Fundamentalist fascists, that is.

It's not cult-like to protect and guard your Masters name. That is how it has and should always be. In ancient China, any martial artist worth his salt would lay in a puddle to let his Master walk over him, to prove his selflessness.

I suppose you could call Hui-Ko a cult fool for cutting off his hand to show his dedication to Bodhidharma. But his selfless act gave him an immortal name and statue. This loyalty and selflessness is to be sought after, not ridiculed.

----

What about Kool-Aid? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this was the elemteary school playground. I thought that debate tactics ad hominem were the mark of an unprofessional with a small vocabulary and low self-esteem.

Wait. I was right: they are.

If you plan to debate with me, act more like some of the adults on here, like Judge Pen who remains very open and friendly.

When you insult my lineage and a man who is so beyond you he wouldn't even bother to acknowledge your poisonous verbage, then you better believe you'll need more than references to mullets and Kool-aid to win anything.

If you want a dialogue, I can do that, too. I've had many with many people of varying backgrounds. In fact last night I had a pleasant chat with a Jui-Jitsu martial artist. I eagerly listened to his lineage and history, and likewise he showed me respect.

Then again, he trained, and looked like a true martial artist. Not a forum-artist.

So, when you grow up, you can pm me.

And as for the offer that I go back and read someone's thesis on Shaolin-Do, please. I have 6 more hours of training tonight, I don't have time for that kind of waste.

thank you and good day.

[csckungfuguy]

amen shadowlin. very well put

[The Xia]

I've skimmed through this thread and others, looked at a little bit of outside stuff. There are alot of outrageous claims made in Shaolin Do. Normally, seeing such stuff would lead me to think "mcdojo!". However, Judge Pen seems to be way too savvy a guy to fall prey to Bullshido. From the surface of Shaolin Do information that I scratched, it seems that behind all the cooky claims there is something to it. As far as the cooky claims, when you combine bureaucracy with commercialism thats what you get. This is the impression Im getting.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about savvy. . . . I'm skeptical and I take everything with a grain of salt. I understand that things get misconstrued, taken out of context, embellished, interpreted, whatever. I know that people are swayed by bias, loyalty, pre-conceived notions, ego, self-interst/preservation, etc. I judge SD as a martial art and by its strengths and weaknesses and I take it as a whole. If one wants to find a reason to find fault, then you would never commit to any martial art.

The thing is, there are SD schools that are McDojos. And there are SD schools that are not. Each region and each school makes its own decisions to a certain degree. I try to stay out of the politics for the most part and that's kept me happy punching and kicking.

[SimonM]

did I say that it was" just" that?? I mean really ..there are so many things that I have posted and you want to pull that out of context and then sit here and "TRY" to give me a lesson? Why?? your interpretation of what a philosophical Taoist is limiting the usage ...

And yet if you step far outside of those works you enter into the realm of Taoism - the religion. Even Zhuangzi is replete with mysticism. Since you claim to regect the religious elements of Taoism in favour of the purely philosophical elements...

What I find interesting is how you have chosen a very small subsection of elements of Taoism:

1) The absolute and ineffable nature of the tao.
2) The balance of dipolar opposites as represented by the taiji diagram.

To represent your interpretation.

[The Xia]

I don't know about savvy. . . . I'm skeptical and I take everything with a grain of salt. I understand that things get misconstrued, taken out of context, embellished, interpreted, whatever. I know that people are swayed by bias, loyalty, pre-conceived notions, ego, self-interst/preservation, etc. I judge SD as a martial art and by its strengths and weaknesses and I take it as a whole. If one wants to find a reason to find fault, then you would never commit to any martial art.

The thing is, there are SD schools that are McDojos. And there are SD schools that are not. Each region and each school makes its own decisions to a certain degree. I try to stay out of the politics for the most part and that's kept me happy punching and kicking.

Yeah the fact that some are mcdojos and others aren't makes me wonder. It says in the wikipedia article that all Shaolin Do belt testing is done by Sin The. If so, does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?

[kwaichang]

All testing is not done by GMT but at times by the other instructor of the schols not until BB are they sometimes tested by GMT KC Yet another false story to harp on.

[The Xia]

All testing is not done by GMT but at times by the other instructor of the schols not until BB are they sometimes tested by GMT KC Yet another false story to harp on.
Yeah, I figure'd the answer would be something like that.

[BM2]

I recall watching him test the under black belts, black belts were graded by a panel of black belts, and at least half the time someone failed in the group. 69 was failing and most scores were 70,71 and maybe you would see some 72-74. The highest that I ever heard of was a 86. My highest was a 77 only because my instructor held us back between testing much longer than most. This was the old scoring before bonus points. That 86 was given in the 1970s to a now very senoir student.
Who wrote the wikipedia article ?:confused:

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah, I figure'd the answer would be something like that.
The west is similar. Lower belts by any teacher, then Brown through BB must be in front of the Elder Masters, Then anything above BB is GMT.

[The Xia]

I recall watching him test the under black belts, black belts were graded by a panel of black belts, and at least half the time someone failed in the group. 69 was failing and most scores were 70,71 and maybe you would see some 72-74. The highest that I ever heard of was a 86. My highest was a 77 only because my instructor held us back between testing much longer than most. This was the old scoring before bonus points. That 86 was given in the 1970s to a now very senoir student.
Who wrote the wikipedia article ?:confused:
The thing with wikipedia is that any user can put stuff in. Wikipedia is good but its not always accurate. However, you can often go to their works cited and start research from there.

[godzillakungfu]

Make sure you are quoting correctly The Xia.

Here is what it actually say:Many of these schools are visited by Grandmaster Thé on an annual basis, when he conducts testing for senior black belts (2nd and above) and advanced training.

The page actually gives a fairly nuetral report.

[Judge Pen]

All of my tests, white through 3rd black, have been in front of Master Sin, but that's a rarity from what I understand.

[SDJerry]

I have tested in front of Master Sin every time as well. He's normally always late hahaha It's always a pleasure though.

[Golden Tiger]

Generally, up until the move to Cali. in 91-92, all testing was done in front of Master Sin (or Master Hiang), period. Then for a while after the move, M. Sin was returning to Lexington and the surrounding areas (Tenn, Atl, Va, etc) every 3 months to do the testing. Because I am sure it became cost prohibitive, he lowered his visits to only twice a year. About this time, the first new crop of Masters were promoted and it was decided that they could test students up to BB as needed. In Lex, M. Bill conducted the gym tests during the off times and the surrounding schools either traveled to Lex or if there was a large number, M. Sin would go to their school.

BB and above has always been in front of M Sin and a panel of same or above ranking BB's (with a few exceptions so don't bother yelling thats not how I was tested :p )

[Radhnoti]

I tested everytime up to black under GM Sin. I only knew a few students who tested under a different master...

The Xia - "...does this mean that belts are worth squat in the Shaolin Do organization being that the mcdojos would get the same testing?"

GM Sin passed everyone I ever saw him test. I believe it's assumed that it's the responsibility of each individual instructor to be certain a student is ready before sending him/her up to test. Someone comes up that not ready and the instructor is going to get a talking to. I'd say black belt is no guarantee of ability (judging entirely by myself :D ), the quality of students around 2nd black is much higher, in my opinion. Lots of only semi-serious students aim for the black, then quit after getting there...probably why the serious students don't feel you "really" begin until blackbelt.

[godzillakungfu]

I was actually in a test were someone failed under GMT.
I was also on a test where someone was actually asked to stop and test another time.


FWIW.

[csckungfuguy]

i have yet to test under gmt but have sat on panels for him. he is a very quiet and gracious person.

hey judge i have a question

what is master mullins take on csc students coming into his class for a visit? i know some sd schools frown on black belts and above coming in to train and was curious what master M thought about it

[Judge Pen]

what is master mullins take on csc students coming into his class for a visit? i know some sd schools frown on black belts and above coming in to train and was curious what master M thought about it

I don't know if the topic has ever come up while I've been in his class, but I don't think it would be an issue. Why would it be?

[kwaichang]

I trained in Texas a long while prior to training with Master Mullins for 3 years. He was very open to me and treated me as one of his own . When we noticed that I did some forms differently he said, no problem just do them thje way you were taught I enjoyed training with him at that time and still respect and like him, Kevin, and Mike . I just wish things were different as I am sure many do KC,

[csckungfuguy]

I don't know if the topic has ever come up while I've been in his class, but I don't think it would be an issue. Why would it be?


ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know

[godzillakungfu]

Ahh more problems.

My personal experience, with the East, was 100% the opposite of what I was told.

It may be frowned upon now, for reasons other than what you suspect.

[Judge Pen]

If you came to his school, then there would be no issue with you working out with them (like KC said).

If I went to the Salt Lake City school to train when I visit there, would it be an issue?

[Golden Tiger]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

I can only speak for Lexington, but outside students have always been welcome to stop by and workout, sit in on a class or what ever. Over the years, there has been students from just about every division stop by. All are welcomed in as should be and a lot of friendships have been formed.

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:

[csckungfuguy]

If you came to his school, then there would be no issue with you working out with them (like KC said).

If I went to the Salt Lake City school to train when I visit there, would it be an issue?


ahhh salt lake city lol thats a touchy place

MJR did some damage at that school but i really dont see how it would be an issue if you were to email the masters and the school instructor before hand.

[csckungfuguy]

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:


that was my take on it as well

thanks for the heads up!

[Judge Pen]

ahhh salt lake city lol thats a touchy place

MJR did some damage at that school but i really dont see how it would be an issue if you were to email the masters and the school instructor before hand.

My wife's family is from there, so I visit often.

[godzillakungfu]

I can only speak for Lexington, but outside students have always been welcome to stop by and workout, sit in on a class or what ever. Over the years, there has been students from just about every division stop by. All are welcomed in as should be and a lot of friendships have been formed.

The problem usually comes in from the persons original instructor.:rolleyes:
CSC ask the masters and see what happens. Then PM the guys so they know the response.

They don't mind if the East comes to visit they do want to be informed. You will not be allowed to take a seminar so, don't try that route. Eventually, I think it will open up again.

East is much more open than the West. The MJR comment isn't true.

[godzillakungfu]

Ahh more problems.

My personal experience, with the East, was 100% the opposite of what I was told.

It may be frowned upon now, for reasons other than what you suspect.

I should add it was a very positive experience. More so than what I was led to believe.

Considering what I was told and who I am it was very funny. It was the complete and utter opposite to what I was told.

[BoulderDawg]

I think getting out and visiting and training at other schools is an extremely good idea. As a matter of fact I think it's essential to learn there are other training methods and styles.

I train in SD and just visited a more traditional Gong Fu school for a basic class and workout. I enjoyed it.

[csckungfuguy]

The MJR comment isn't true.


oh it is very true....he caused a huge mess that gmt had to get involved with to fix

pm me for details...maybe your thinking of someone else but this was just recent

[godzillakungfu]

Is CC still the SLC instructor?

If so, you are completely and utterly wrong.

[csckungfuguy]

Is CC still the SLC instructor?

If so, you are completely and utterly wrong.

yes cc is the new instructor there...the former one "resigned" (his name started with a m)

[godzillakungfu]

yes cc is the new instructor there...the former one "resigned" (his name started with a m)
Then you are 100% wrong about the old instructor.

[John Many Jars]

About a year ago I told Master David I was thinking about visiting the schools in the East. He just basically told me to introduce myself, tell them where I'm from and be polite.


Good for you boulderdawg. =)

[lxtruong]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know

I know for a fact that both

1. I've visted the Lexington school was greeted with nothing with courtesy and friendliness. Of course I trained in Texas so it's not like I was a total stranger. I called in advance, which is only common courtesy.

2. In Austin people from both the "west" and some of the other factions have stopped by and MJ has never to my knownledge turned them away. I can recall at least one blue belt from one of the atlanta schools that was visiting and sat in for a class.

[godzillakungfu]

ive heard that some sd instructors treat visiting black belts with either little or no respect or flat out wont let them train. i have not heard this of master mullins so dont think i am implying that at all. just curious is all

id love to travel and train in different schools just to get a broader flavor of shaolin under gmt as it were but dont want to step on toes you know
Be respectful. I know some of the stories behind your above comments. The problems weren't always caused by the East instructors.

Crap I had know clue you were banned. Anyone know why?

[orion_steel]

They don't mind if the East comes to visit they do want to be informed. You will not be allowed to take a seminar so, don't try that route. Eventually, I think it will open up again.

East is much more open than the West. The MJR comment isn't true.

I have seen instructors and masters act horrible in the past. When i first went to the SD school that i attended in college the instructor flat out told me to go away. I have seen (on at least 3 occasions) students from other schools get insulted for wearing different uniforms. I once saw EML insult one of the west masters while on of his/her students was in the room....

as far as material goes, I have had to re-learn my material several different times because it was "not right". I have even learned some material one way that was recently film with EML and then have to re-learn it cause he says that it wasnt right....even though i got it from him on film, hehehehehe.

so, to me....i think that the kentucky/lexington division is friendly....to others from lexington/kentucky (but not always winchester).

but that is just my opinion.....i could be wrong.

[BentMonk]

There are hundreds of pages of debate and discussion about all things Shaolin Do floating all over the net, and elsewhere. That fact alone makes SD "real" in many ways. All of this attention to the pros, cons, substance, and origins of SD have shown us that;

1. There is CMA present in SD. I'm talking about the material itself, not an opinion of performance.

2. There are SD schools that strongly emphasize technique application, proper form and body mechanics, and physical conditioning.

3. SD schools are like people. They all have strengths and weaknesses. They each see their point of view as correct, and sometimes forget that everyone else does the same thing.

4. SD is subject to all of the same drama as any other endeavor involving a large group of imperfect human beings.

5. SD is no different than any other MA. There are instructors, students, and fighters that are excellent, good, fair, and poor. This is a matter of effort, not what is real.

It is up to the current instructors and students to change SD for the better. If we do not, it will be gone with GM Sin. Personal issues need to be set aside in the name of artistic preservation and fellowship. We all talk it, let's start walking it. I consider anyone who studies any combat art my family. We may not love or like each other, but we can at least show respect in the name of the art and mutual effort spent preserving and practicing the art. There will always be those who thrive on drama, and are comfortable with their minds closed. Rank in anything is not a measure of personal ethics or morality. It is up to us as individuals to lead by example, and hope to one day be the ruling majority. Peace, love, and happy training to ALL. :D

[Judge Pen]

It is up to the current instructors and students to change SD for the better. If we do not, it will be gone with GM Sin. Personal issues need to be set aside in the name of artistic preservation and fellowship. We all talk it, let's start walking it. I consider anyone who studies any combat art my family. We may not love or like each other, but we can at least show respect in the name of the art and mutual effort spent preserving and practicing the art. There will always be those who thrive on drama, and are comfortable with their minds closed. Rank in anything is not a measure of personal ethics or morality. It is up to us as individuals to lead by example, and hope to one day be the ruling majority. Peace, love, and happy training to ALL. :D

I hope you're right. Personally I see a train wreck coming once GMT passes.

[Flying-Monkey]

This thread is annoying. I wish it would die already. It seems that no one is going to change their minds.

[Ou Ji]

Shao-Lin Do, Shao-Lin Do, Do I bother you?

Dog Face Monk, Dog Face Monk, Does this bother you?

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, real or not-real?

Hey, is this bothering you? Read some more. You have to you know. It's under your skin now.

You know you can't stop reading this thread.

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, Sin The

:D

[godzillakungfu]

Yeah it will never end. I think if it was an "accepted" art, no one would care.


Yes, when GMT passes it will get very ugly IMO.

Before someone says something Kyokushin is a highly respected art. It has 3 seperate entities and a possible fourth up and coming.

[Judge Pen]

This thread is annoying. I wish it would die already. It seems that no one is going to change their minds.

As soon as this thread dies, then someone will start a new one and it will start ALL OVER AGAIN! At least people can vent here. No, it won't change anything, but I for one has learned a lot about my own style here. Plus, I've met some great people too.

[kwaichang]

Barring an accident, GMT will probably out live us all. Besides that, if he were to die suddenly and soon it would change nothing, all the masters that remain are already adjusting for position. That is normal it is a rather large organization many would like to lead it. I personally will continue to train and and follow the Shaolin Tao / Do. Trying to improve and grow, I feel many would do the same and only those at a very high rank will bicker. They can do what they want I will train and grow. It will be sad if it happened as there is so much to learn, and many would feel lost. However, as the art of SD stands now GMT does not tell us, the students, how to train and what to do, he allows each of us to follow our own path within the system itself. Therefore, nothing will change those that remain will continue to train and preserve the art of SD for the sole purpose of the historic significance itself. Remember Shaolin was and is an art constantly changing and progressing with time as we should with our training. KC

[Golden Tiger]

I have seen instructors and masters act horrible in the past. When i first went to the SD school that i attended in college the instructor flat out told me to go away.

Shoot me a pm and let me know who it was please. I'll make a few calls for you.:mad:


I have seen (on at least 3 occasions) students from other schools get insulted for wearing different uniforms.

Heck, I have seen a system torn in half over uniforms. 3 ocassions? thats nothing.
:D

I once saw EML insult one of the west masters while on of his/her students was in the room....


If one of the west students was in the room, I am sure they felt the same way.:D

It's no secret that there is no love lost between the EML and EMD/S.

as far as material goes, I have had to re-learn my material several different times because it was "not right". I have even learned some material one way that was recently film with EML and then have to re-learn it cause he says that it wasnt right....even though i got it from him on film, hehehehehe

Perhaps mistakes were made the first time and corrected later on? Having taught before, I have done it, I imagine other teachers have done it. Just do it the way it best fits you. You'll be fine.


i think that the kentucky/lexington division is friendly....to others from lexington/kentucky (but not always winchester).



Master Nance's students regularly come up for this and that. I am not sure why you feel that anyone from winchester would not be welcome. Trust me, everyone is welcome....well, except MK.


Personally I see a train wreck coming once GMT passes....
......Yes, when GMT passes it will get very ugly IMO.



Unfortunately, it will. Heck, its pretty ugly at times and he is still around. Tell you what, if it happens and everything goes to heII, come and find me at Shady Acres Old Folks Home and I will teach you Golden Tiger Do...or Tao...or Kung Fu. I have all the material you know and some that you don't;)

[MasterKiller]

Master Nance's students regularly come up for this and that. I am not sure why you feel that anyone from winchester would not be welcome. Trust me, everyone is welcome....well, except MK. Holding on to anger cannot be good for someone at your advanced age, GT. Crack open an Ensure, take a Geritol, and relax.

[humbleman]

...if she was acting like something, she deserves a freaking Oscar. Those who know me and/or her will get the inside joke.:D :D :D
someone might start believing this and think there's something to it...:eek:

[humbleman]

Shao-Lin Do, Shao-Lin Do, Do I bother you?

Dog Face Monk, Dog Face Monk, Does this bother you?

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, real or not-real?

Hey, is this bothering you? Read some more. You have to you know. It's under your skin now.

You know you can't stop reading this thread.

Shao-Lin Do, Dog Face Monk, Sin The

:D love it, LOVE IT!!! IT'S ALL TOO BEA-UUUU-TI-FUL!!!!

[humbleman]

coooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmm........:D :D :D

[Judge Pen]

humbleman, you are a unique individual.

[Golden Tiger]

humbleman, you are a unique individual.

Without a doubt.....

[humbleman]

humbleman, you are a unique individual. ...any truth to the rumours being circulated that S.D. teachers are highly eccentric???:rolleyes: :confused:

[humbleman]

Without a doubt..... enjoy it when it gets like this. When all of you senior guys start going at it, it reminds me of the "free for all" that was on the K.E.T. series, where the seven top ranked masters got into the ring and fought until only one was left standing. Grandmaster Sin laughingly referred to them as the "magnificent seven." Watching the brawl, I didn't see anything that looked fake to me.:eek: :eek: :eek:

[kungfujunky]

enjoy it when it gets like this. When all of you senior guys start going at it, it reminds me of the "free for all" that was on the K.E.T. series, where the seven top ranked masters got into the ring and fought until only one was left standing. Grandmaster Sin laughingly referred to them as the "magnificent seven." Watching the brawl, I didn't see anything that looked fake to me.:eek: :eek: :eek:

id like to see that one!

[humbleman]

id like to see that one! I'm sure one of the people on this thread has it taped and would be willing to tape it and send it to you. It was real, that's a fact. My reaction was something like "Holy Toledo!" only in a different state. Also, I had better quickly qualify a previous statement. I am not nor have ever been a S.D. teacher, nor do I mean to imply that my fantastic Sensei was in any way eccentric. Actually, he was no joke at all. I had heard rumours of eccentricity floating around, though. Unique individual? Does this mean I have to go sit on the group W (as in weird) bench now? (see Arlo Guthries "Alices Resturaunt" for explanation.):rolleyes:

[humbleman]

humbleman, you are a unique individual. ...hear Brian now..."Don't tell him that, you'll just get him started...":p

[kungfujunky]

I'm sure one of the people on this thread has it taped and would be willing to tape it and send it to you. It was real, that's a fact. My reaction was something like "Holy Toledo!" only in a different state. Also, I had better quickly qualify a previous statement. I am not nor have ever been a S.D. teacher, nor do I mean to imply that my fantastic Sensei was in any way eccentric. Actually, he was no joke at all. I had heard rumours of eccentricity floating around, though. Unique individual? Does this mean I have to go sit on the group W (as in weird) bench now? (see Arlo Guthries "Alices Resturaunt" for explanation.):rolleyes:



if anyone would do that id even pay for it

im a student of the soards but have been researching sd for a while and i would love to see that bit of history!

[humbleman]

if anyone would do that id even pay for it

im a student of the soards but have been researching sd for a while and i would love to see that bit of history! later, people.:o

[kungfujunky]

im curious what people think of the forms in the newest clips posted on shao-lin.com

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

i know judge penn showed us the kwan tao form...let me know what you all think of these ones posted

thx!

[brucereiter]

im curious what people think of the forms in the newest clips posted on shao-lin.com

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

i know judge penn showed us the kwan tao form...let me know what you all think of these ones posted

thx!

anyone have any tips on how to view the clips. i hit the link media player 9 opens. and i see no video ???

b

[kungfujunky]

it took me a while to download the video..maybe you just have to wait?

i know firefox didnt allow me to do it but aol did

[brucereiter]

it was nice to see the new csc denver clips. i have meet a few of the people performing and all are great people and were very welcoming when i visited their schools. the way they move is a bit diffrent than the way we are taught at the atlanta csc, but that is not a bad thing just a diffrent understanding of the same matieral.

chen xinjia "83" tai chi chuan was the most strikingly diffrent interpritation from what i have understood but then again if you watch elder master mullins he looks completly diffrent as does sr master grooms and grandmaster the'.

again it is not a bad thing to be diffrent! chen xiaowong, chen zhonglie and ren guangyi all look completly diffrent doing for example the xinjia form. who is "correct"

any thoughts?

[Mas Judt]

again it is not a bad thing to be diffrent! chen xiaowong, chen zhonglie and ren guangyi all look completly diffrent doing for example the xinjia form. who is "correct"

REPLY: The ones who follow taiji principles? Something I could not see in these clips... it was certainly.... unique.

[kungfujunky]

for the chen he was moving fast as it was a demo and they covered a lot of forms...ive seen mjk do it at tai chi speed and it is impressive to watch his balance and control

other than that the first form (broadsword) imo was very well done! mms did a great job!

[Mas Judt]

No excuses. It was NOT Chen TJQ. It was cr@p. Pure and simple.

[brucereiter]

No excuses. It was NOT Chen TJQ. It was cr@p. Pure and simple.

how do you decide what is and isnt chen tai chi chuan?
do you practice chen style taijiquan?

REPLY: The ones who follow taiji principles? Something I could not see in these clips... it was certainly.... unique.

my big question about shaolin do is why so many people who do not practice it care so strongly one way or another about someone elses understanding of what ever martial style it is they say they do?

do you speak so disrespectfully to peoples face? if you met master keller (the guy who did the chen form) would you say to him that his taiji is crap?

does your teacher teach you to disrespect other martial artists ways?

wouldnt your teacher be ashamed of you? weather you are right or wrong ...

practice your art. enjoy what you do. let others enjoy what they do. live and let live!

[Mas Judt]

"how do you decide what is and isnt chen tai chi chuan?
do you practice chen style taijiquan? "

REPLY: I practice Chang style, but workout with Chen players. Chen has a distinct methodology and flavor - none of which was exhibited in the SD clip. If you don't consider me credible - go seek out Chen Xioa Wang - and ask him. He might be more polite, unless you feed him the line of bull your system propogates.

"my big question about shaolin do is why so many people who do not practice it care so strongly one way or another about someone elses understanding of what ever martial style it is they say they do?"

REPLY: It's simple - the lies put forth by your organization compel people who actually practice the systems you claim feel the public should know that SD is a fraud. It's like serving horse-meat and calling it Angus beef, then wondering why people who serve Angus beef might be offended.



"do you speak so disrespectfully to peoples face? if you met master keller (the guy who did the chen form) would you say to him that his taiji is crap?"

REPLY: If the situation calls for it, yes. For the most part I'm a very diplomatic fellow. However, I might not get a chance to say anything, as I'd be laughing too hard when they told me it was Chen TJQ.

"does your teacher teach you to disrespect other martial artists ways?"

REPLY: Does your teacher teach you to be a fool? Oh wait...

"wouldnt your teacher be ashamed of you? weather you are right or wrong ..."

REPLY: No, actually. He'd probably wonder how you guys got to be such tools to beleive that was Chen TJQ, and offer you an opportunnity to come play. I'm a lot nicer, and nowhere as willing to risk law suits as he is.

"practice your art. enjoy what you do. let others enjoy what they do. live and let live!"

REPLY: This I agree with. Except when a marketing machine is fueling a massive fraud and giving good arts a bad name. I've seen SD first hand. It is rudimentary at best - pretty much some Karate with some fantasy kung fu painted over it.

This has been pretty much proven over and over. Whenever one of the layers on here dissect a video (like Sin The' doing 'mantis') - we are told that 'oh that video does not represent us." RIIIIIIGGHHHHT.

Okay, I'm done being mean to the little kid. Promise I'll be nice from now on.

[BoulderDawg]

Having seen this thread go on...and on........and on...............and on. I just wonder why any SD people bother to post here.

I recognize there are people who hate us but what can I do about that? That's the price of being popular!:D

A Bulletin Board is a lazy man's way of criticizing something. I say if someone has a problem with our style they can show up at the school in person and tell us why.

[Mas Judt]

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with veracity. Something SD lacks...

[kungfujunky]

It has nothing to do with hate. It has to do with veracity. Something SD lacks...


have you been to a class?

you claim to know how bad we are at what we do but whos to say what you do is any better?

it is an endless debate.

after watching hundreds and hundreds of clips from various systems about what they "know" is right and true...i find the martial aspect of csc or shaolin do much more concrete.

it works for me and thousands of others. and thats what matters at the end of the day.

btw the chen clip you claim is garbage.. i have watched a few others on youtube that cant even compare to what mjk was doing. and they were supposedly of chinese masters.

who knows.

everyone is right so the debate is silly in the end. i asked for opinions on the cma aspect of the clips shown and all mas j could say was its crap. well that clears that up! lol

anyone else have an opinion on the cma aspect of the csc demo?

lmk! either in pm or on here. id like to here others opinions.

:D

[Mas Judt]

All I can say is.... wow. That is a really convincing statement.

You - a member of a group that teaches outright lies, and has no idea what it is you are not understanding - are able to tell us that you can 'just tell' your guy is superior to the others.

See - this is my point. I'm sure your a nice kid. I'm sure you train hard. I'm sure plenty of people enjoy SD training.

But that does make it what Sin The' claims it to be. That was NOT Chen TJQ - not even close. The Mantis set The' performed on video was laughable. Really, really funny. I'm not saying this to be mean. It's just what it is.

You assume I have some form of animosity. Nope, not here. If anything I'm sympathetic due to my awareness of Indo exageration.

But your organization, and many of the schools in it lie about what you are, what you teach, and what you offer.

And no amount of wishing it not to be so can change the fact that there has been a systematic effort on the behalf of SD to defraud the public. The evidence is overwhelming.

And for the record, I've seen SD first hand, which why I find the pro-SD posts so funny.

[Mas Judt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?

[BoulderDawg]

it works for me and thousands of others. and thats what matters at the end of the day.

Very true....and one thing I've learned from Shao-lin Do is respect. I respect the opinion of others who may not feel a high reguard for the art. That said we, as supporters of SD, should stand aside and let others post in this particular thread.

Not to say that someone should not create a positve thread about SD. Someone should and let us tell the people on this board the joys we have experienced. I'm sure that others here would respect a thread that would be dedicated to the positive side of Shao-lin Do.

[Mas Judt]

Why not just answer the questions brought up? Why not face the truth?

This type of cognitive disonance is typical in MA. You are faced with the truth, but don't want to face it.

It's hard to respect an organization that lies this much.

It's easy respect folks who don't misrepresent themselves to the public, no matter how bad they might be.

[kungfujunky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?

that was .....interesting :rolleyes:


that is extremely similar to what ive seen mk do before. he did another demo in phx last year where he did the form at normal tai chi speed. the stance work is obviously a bit different and mk was more suspended by a thread than master checn showed but otherwise that was very similar.

thx for the link!

and boulderdawg

good point!

im off to train but please i would like others opinions on some of the weapons forms etc!

thx again!

[Mas Judt]

"I say if someone has a problem with our style they can show up at the school in person and tell us why."

I did in the early 90's at a school - I think it was in Vegas. I was in town for a trade show, saw the words Shaolin and went to check it out. What I saw was very bad Karate, and little or no understanding of basic CMA concepts. Spent a good time in the parking lot after class talking to the folks I met there. They were simply astounded by things I thought were rudimentry.

This POV was reinforced when Willow Sword was a defender of SD, and made me spit my Latte out I was laughing so hard, when he said the Karate one-step sparring garbage I saw was valid because they did 'combat' kung fu.

Sheesh. Now since then I've talked to some guys here, and I'm willing to stretch my imagination that maybe, maybe there is some kind of Kun Tao at the root of what you do. But it does not forgive the decades of misrepresentation.

[BM2]

[QUOTE=shaolindoiscool]

do you speak so disrespectfully to peoples face? if you met master keller (the guy who did the chen form)

And all this time I have been typing MasterKiller :o :(

[BM2]

;) That's to start you off this morning MK :p

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?

chen xiao wang is a fantastic example of chen tai chi chuan. watching him move is artisticly pleasing, very beautiful. having said that i think the way chen xiowang performs xinjia form is not the only way to express the tai chi principles. if you look at the clip below of the first few postures of the xinjia form you will see bkf move very diffrently to the way chen xiaowang moves, does this mean his style is crap or it is NOT chen taichi chuan?
http://energyarts.com/hires/taichi/index.html


is this good chen tai chi chuan?
if so what is good about it? if not what is bad about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx5BOExBzNU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_FF6jTjhMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOoWloE6DDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFvPh0Y1NnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1jvYjfNy48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc9YD9fwKm4

i have meet/pushed hands with several people with pristine backgrounds only to find out they can not apply what they practice unless it is very cooperitive. why is it that so many tai chi chuan schools have students who after 10-15 years they can not fight, they never make progress.

ignorance is bliss!

[godzillakungfu]

Having seen this thread go on...and on........and on...............and on. I just wonder why any SD people bother to post here.

I recognize there are people who hate us but what can I do about that? That's the price of being popular!:D

A Bulletin Board is a lazy man's way of criticizing something. I say if someone has a problem with our style they can show up at the school in person and tell us why.
I've made some good contacts on this board. Also, I found out how rumors get started.

As much as the leaders get the blame, I now know, there are many low level instructors stiring the pot.

Showing up at a school proves nothing. Don't even stoop to throwing that out. It wouldn't help prove anything.

I'd rather meet someone at dinner and leave with a friend then disrupt practice.

It has been very enlightening.

[Judge Pen]

This POV was reinforced when Willow Sword was a defender of SD, and made me spit my Latte out I was laughing so hard, when he said the Karate one-step sparring garbage I saw was valid because they did 'combat' kung fu.


Please don't hold us accountable for something TWS said . . .

And frankly, I don't know enough about Chen Tai Chi, SD's version or otherwise, to really comment on that debate. I'll say this: I've seen many Chinese "masters" with iron clad lineages do horrible tai chi (Chen or otherwise) and no one says anything about them (publically at least) because their lineage is good even if they are crap. Don't know MJK; never met the guy, so I don't know if that's the way he always does his Chen TJQ or if he was embellishing, etc.

Generally I liked most of the clips. There was some very good stuff there (stuff I'm actually glad was displayed on a public forum) and some that was average (like my stuff) and some bad stuff, but, as a whole, this set was better than most SD clips put out for public roast.

[Golden Tiger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0tc8IGYpfU

Is this one of the guys you thought wasn't as good as your 'master'?


MS2, if you wouldn't mind, perhaps you could go into a bit of detail as to why you think that this particular clip had more "flavor" and was "played" more correctly (I just love some of the terms used on here).

I ask because it is very easy in a debate to say this sucks and that is great but more weight will be given if you can at least explain the basis of your opinion.

From my untrained eye, the clip you posted, while lovely to watch also contained a few things that, in my understanding (delusional as it is), were no-no's. Over extension of the body and knee past the toes, unsettled weight distribution in a couple of places, pulling a few of the explosive punches short......to name a few.

So, if you have time, please elaborate on your position.

[Mas Judt]

I'd love to. I'm jamming in the office this morning, but I'll do my best to do an analysis in the next 24 hours.

FWIW - I am fairly convinced after viewing some of the other stuff on the clips as to what you guys are doing underneath all the wild claims. I'm just trying to reconcile the Karate elements of it... but Indonesia is a pretty syncretic and illogical place....

For what it is worth, all the players exhibited excelent conditioning.

Language may be an issue when discussing the Chen style - so bear with me.

[BentMonk]

IMO people on this board have a serious pre-existing bias against anything SD. Therefore, we could post the best vid of the best SD performance ever seen, and it would be shredded because it was SD. I'd like to see someone with some good form from SD (yes they do exist) post an anonymous video and see what type of response they get. I don't know enough about TJQ to critique the clip MJ posted. IMO it was no better or worse than any other vid I've seen on the net. It seems to me that it doesn't matter who is in the vid, what form they're doing, or where the form came from. There are always those who think it's great, those who think it's ok, and those who think it sucks.

[The Willow Sword]

At the time i made such statement about the one step movements in the beginning sd curriculumn, and also about the style in general, i was merely relaying what had been engrained in me at the time that "what we were learning was the REAL way the shaolin monks practiced their forms,which were not all flowery looking but more combat oriented". in fact what i was told about the one step movements was that they were "TAN TUI". (referring to the 30 "short KATAS" as they are called).

MS2(mas Judt) is not holding you guys accountable for anything that i have said. in fact he holds the lot of you sd'ers accountable as well as sin the for perpetuating a false claim,and fabricating a false lineage, and having the gaul to call it something that it is clearly not.

anyway,just wanted to clear that up since i was mentioned in the last couple of pages.

TWS

[kwaichang]

The 1- 30 "short katas" were part of the 108 movements of the Lohan System. I was never told that the one steps were part of the same system as the 1-30 short katas. as a matter of fact I was never told where they came from. I have been in SD since 1992 I think TWS must have dreamed this up as I also studied with Master Joe, and Senior Master Mullins as well, and attended many classes and never heard what TWS stated. But the one step concept is a safe way to train and builds reflexes and timing. KC:)

[kwaichang]

Well I did not see the Chen from SD that you guys speak of however I did view the others posted and was not impressed except by the flow and low stances. I have viewed GMT doing "our" SD Chen,m the whole thing, and I will tell you it is much more impressive to view than those on the Tube thing. His Chen is amazing to say the least. KC:cool:

[B-Rad]

From my untrained eye, the clip you posted, while lovely to watch also contained a few things that, in my understanding (delusional as it is), were no-no's. Over extension of the body and knee past the toes, unsettled weight distribution in a couple of places, pulling a few of the explosive punches short......to name a few.

So, if you have time, please elaborate on your position.

In Yang style forward stance the knee going past the toes would be a big no no because the wieght distribution (they use a straight forward stance quite often), but to me it looked like when he did enter a longer forward stance, his knees were aligned pretty well. In the few stances where the knee did go a bit past the toes it seemed to me were in postures where doing that a little wouldn't be too big a deal. It was still very seldom that he did such a thing, and clearly wasn't any kind of trained habitual problem. Most of his stance work is really excellent. Another thing I really liked about his form was his feet! One common mistake amoung Chen stylists I've seen at competition is unstable feet. Lots of Chen stylists focus so much on all the fancy stuff going on up top and end up with unstable footwork. Lots of sliding around of the feet... this guy didn't seem to have much, if any, of that. Every step was solid and purposful. I'm not sure what you mean about "pulling" the punches... they looked pretty well extended to me, though not locked (which WOULD be a no no in taiji quan).

[The Willow Sword]

nope, did not dream it up. besides, lohan incorporates the springy leg stepping or TAN TUI. but this is from Northern Shaolin, NOT SD.:) TWS

[MasterKiller]

IMO people on this board have a serious pre-existing bias against anything SD. Therefore, we could post the best vid of the best SD performance ever seen, and it would be shredded because it was SD.

I don't think this is necessarily true. BM2 or GT posted an old video of a chain whip demo that everyone seemed to like.

[Judge Pen]

I think people would probably be a bit more critical of something knowing it was SD on the front end. There are exceptions to that and, to be very fair, most of what has been posted of SD hasn't been very good. There are a few exceptions (like the chain-whip video).