Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I'd lean towards no. I'd be weirded out/upset if some demo I did from 15 years ago (when I was 11?) suddenly popped up on the 'net without me knowing about it. He might have left SD but that's not the point....

I tend to agree. I would only post myself or another person with that person's permission. I'm not the best represntation of our art, but if I post myself I know I have thick skin and I can critque my own performance and how I should have done it (but for this limitation or this mistake etc).

[Crushing Fist]

Hey,

We had a guy in class last night from the school in Asheville.

He's a Brown Belt named Chris and he seemed to have a lot of fun.

We certainly do some things differently, and it was interesting to compare.

Anyway he's a friendly guy and a pretty good fighter, so we were glad to have him.

I'll have to head up there one of these days.

[Golden Tiger]

I'd lean towards no.

I tend to agree.

Well there you go. The voice of reason wins out. A shame though....figured you all would have wanted to see M. Mullins back when he had hair and M. Shaefer when he was just a youngin....:D

[Judge Pen]

Well there you go. The voice of reason wins out. A shame though....figured you all would have wanted to see M. Mullins back when he had hair and M. Shaefer when he was just a youngin....:D

You can always share privately or get their permission to post here.

[MasterKiller]

Of course, GT could always just post some videos of himself...

[Golden Tiger]

Of course, GT could always just post some videos of himself...

No nipple shot,simple as that.

I would MK but A) I am not that good at forms, never have been. Clumsy white guy with 2 left feet. and B) I am trying to give SD a good name...my performances would not do that, not even close.

[Judge Pen]

I would MK but A) I am not that good at forms, never have been. Clumsy white guy with 2 left feet. and B) I am trying to give SD a good name...my performances would not do that, not even close.

You just described me, but I've already stuck my foot in my mouth, so I'll get a couple of vids up here eventually. You sure you don't want to share my pain?

[Judge Pen]

Can't we discuss more important stuff than Shaolin Do?

Sure, we can. But you posted here. Go play somewhere else if you don't like what we're playing here.

[Blacktiger]

How are those clips coming along?

[Green Cloud]

Hey fellas I was just wondering why do you guys use CMA terminoligy and Japanese to, and what is flying tiger out of the cave?? Could you describe that form to me??

greencloud.net

[brucereiter]

Hey fellas I was just wondering why do you guys use CMA terminoligy and Japanese to, and what is flying tiger out of the cave?? Could you describe that form to me??

greencloud.net

hi green cloud,

live and let live!

you say you are great at kung fu ??? 35 years is a long time. almost as long as i have been alive :-). is this how long you have trained green cloud?

why do you question what "we" do?

what info do you want?

why do you use english and chinese terminoligy on green cloud.net? i mean thats just silly it is a chinese art all mention of it should only be in chinese right.

if you call it a kata, a set, a form, a blah bleeping blahzblopgfrgh set of movments who cares? does the way the name is expressed change the actual art?

what is the lineage of the "tai chi" you teach? is it a martial art or health art?

tell me about the black belt club at green cloud?

how many total forms does your system have?

can your students do applications from these form on a non willing person?

tell us about the green cloud monestary and its history. several hundered years there must be lots of documentation.

interesting system you have here. Chan Tai-San, who was his teacher and his teachers teacher? where did his teachers etc. learn there art?

what proof do you have?

there are so many questions left unanswered on your web sites about your history and your art ... why?

your grandmaster was by many accounts a very skilled martial artist, but can you prove the history of his art and his teachers and their teachers etc ???

my point is not to talk sh*t about your art (i know very little about you or it).
i just want to point out that anyones history is not totally provable. but if yours is please do prove it.

<<
Green Cloud
I am my teachers student
What's your MA style?:
Green Cloud Kung Fu
How long have you trained?:
35 years
Biography:
I'm great at kung fu
Location:
Wading river N.Y.
Interests:
Kung Fu
Occupation:
Kung Fu>>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<< Our Programs

_. Little Ninjas: Course for Children Ages 4 to 7.
_. We build children's coordination, focus, balance, and self-esteem.
_. Juniors/Dragons: Introduction of Green Cloud Martial Arts
_. Course for ages 7 to 15.
_. Provides a reward system to improve children's self-esteem.
_. Teaches children discipline.
_. Channels children's aggression.
_. Teaches children essential self-defense skills.
_. Black Belt Club: More advanced Kung-Fu
_. Adult Kung-Fu: Traditional Chinese Kung-Fu program for ages 16 and up.
_. Cardio Kickboxing: Burn fat, increase metabolism, and create greater endurance.
_. Tai Chi: Provides internal health benefits for the body.
Krav Maga: Fighting system of the Israeli Defense Forces.

_. Northern Siu-Lum Pai
_. Bak-Mei
_. Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
_. Sit Gaut
_. San Shou
_. Southern Eagle Claw
_. Northern Eagle Claw
_. Iron Palm
_. Chi Gung - Hei Gung
_. Chin Na
_. Pankration
_. Nanchuan
_. Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
_. Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come to Green Cloud Kung Fu where we can teach you Kung-Fu, kickboxing, and the martial arts weapons. Green Cloud has been around for several hundreds of years in Toisan China, producing many famous scholars, doctors, and Kung-Fu teachers, such as the famed Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today. The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos. Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts. The winner of several national titles and the feature of numerous national publications, Sifu Kaparos has been nominated to the Kung-Fu Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos is the head of Green Cloud in the U.S.
Our mission is to foster self-improvement and personal development through focused training. We promote physical fitness and positive social interaction in a courteous and fun atmosphere. Our greatest responsibility is to instill in our students a sense of discipline and a code of ethics to inspire them to lead exemplary lives as leaders in the community.
Our school offers a comprehensive training program in several styles of Kung-Fu and Weapons, and also Kickboxing and Beyond Personal Training. For more specific information about the Green Cloud Kung Fu Academy, please visit About Us or just contact us.
Although we honor Martial Arts traditions that go back centuries, we are dynamic and are constantly seeking new and innovative ways to enthuse and excite our students.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>>


best,

b

[Golden Tiger]

ninth drunk, mail

[Judge Pen]

How are those clips coming along?

Well it's 7:38 and I'm at work. I'll be here until about 6:30 or so tonight. Then I'll come home, eat dinner, chill with my wife, stretch out a bit and go to sleep.

At 6:30 tomorrow I'll get up, go to class until about 9:30. Teach a class unitl 12 or so. Take my wife (who is pregnant by the way) out to lunch and do a little baby shopping. Come home and eat dinner. I might be able to work on putting the clip online Saturday night, but, honestly, I'll probably just stetch out and chill with my wife a bit more. She stays home all day and gets lonely so I don't like spending too much time in front of the computer on the weekends. There's more important things in life.

Sunday, I'll get up have breakfast, go back to work for about 4 hours and then come home and mow and trim the yard. Do some other work that needs to be around, go through some more forms and stretch and chill out and watch a movie or something.

So I might get around to posting those clips on youtube. But, I don't want anyone to think that I'm blowing them off, if you'll PM me you address and pay the postage, I'll send you the clips in the mail. How's that? If that won't work, then just be patient. I'll do what I say when I get around to it.

[Golden Tiger]

Take my wife (who is pregnant by the way)

Congrats JP. :D Guess wearing a cup all those years paid off.

[Judge Pen]

Congrats JP. :D Guess wearing a cup all those years paid off.

Thanks. It's nice to know that your boy can actually swim. The cravings are kicking in, so I'm driving about getting food she can eat and actually keep down. Fun stuff! :p

[MasterKiller]

Thanks. It's nice to know that your boy can actually swim. The cravings are kicking in, so I'm driving about getting food she can eat and actually keep down. Fun stuff! :p

In 4 or 5 months you'll have the biggest boobies you've ever touched to play with...you better post that video soon because once those suckers swell you'll be too preoccupied.

Pregnant boobies are the best part.

[Judge Pen]

In 4 or 5 months you'll have the biggest boobies you've ever touched to play with...you better post that video soon because once those suckers swell you'll be too preoccupied.

Pregnant boobies are the best part.

Too late. I'm already preoccupied.

[ninthdrunk]

please, someone start talking crap about SD again...way better than where this thread is going!

:eek:

[Green Cloud]

hi green cloud,

live and let live!

you say you are great at kung fu ??? 35 years is a long time. almost as long as i have been alive :-). is this how long you have trained green cloud?

why do you question what "we" do?

what info do you want?

why do you use english and chinese terminoligy on green cloud.net? i mean thats just silly it is a chinese art all mention of it should only be in chinese right.

if you call it a kata, a set, a form, a blah bleeping blahzblopgfrgh set of movments who cares? does the way the name is expressed change the actual art?

what is the lineage of the "tai chi" you teach? is it a martial art or health art?

tell me about the black belt club at green cloud?

how many total forms does your system have?

can your students do applications from these form on a non willing person?

tell us about the green cloud monestary and its history. several hundered years there must be lots of documentation.

interesting system you have here. Chan Tai-San, who was his teacher and his teachers teacher? where did his teachers etc. learn there art?

what proof do you have?

there are so many questions left unanswered on your web sites about your history and your art ... why?

your grandmaster was by many accounts a very skilled martial artist, but can you prove the history of his art and his teachers and their teachers etc ???

my point is not to talk sh*t about your art (i know very little about you or it).
i just want to point out that anyones history is not totally provable. but if yours is please do prove it.

<<
Green Cloud
I am my teachers student
What's your MA style?:
Green Cloud Kung Fu
How long have you trained?:
35 years
Biography:
I'm great at kung fu
Location:
Wading river N.Y.
Interests:
Kung Fu
Occupation:
Kung Fu>>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
<< Our Programs

_. Little Ninjas: Course for Children Ages 4 to 7.
_. We build children's coordination, focus, balance, and self-esteem.
_. Juniors/Dragons: Introduction of Green Cloud Martial Arts
_. Course for ages 7 to 15.
_. Provides a reward system to improve children's self-esteem.
_. Teaches children discipline.
_. Channels children's aggression.
_. Teaches children essential self-defense skills.
_. Black Belt Club: More advanced Kung-Fu
_. Adult Kung-Fu: Traditional Chinese Kung-Fu program for ages 16 and up.
_. Cardio Kickboxing: Burn fat, increase metabolism, and create greater endurance.
_. Tai Chi: Provides internal health benefits for the body.
Krav Maga: Fighting system of the Israeli Defense Forces.

_. Northern Siu-Lum Pai
_. Bak-Mei
_. Dai Sing Pek Gwa (Great Sage Monkey System)
_. Sit Gaut
_. San Shou
_. Southern Eagle Claw
_. Northern Eagle Claw
_. Iron Palm
_. Chi Gung - Hei Gung
_. Chin Na
_. Pankration
_. Nanchuan
_. Jiu Jia Quan (Drunken Boxing)
_. Nok Fei Pai
Mok Ga

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Come to Green Cloud Kung Fu where we can teach you Kung-Fu, kickboxing, and the martial arts weapons. Green Cloud has been around for several hundreds of years in Toisan China, producing many famous scholars, doctors, and Kung-Fu teachers, such as the famed Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, who is considered to be the foremost authority on Chinese Martial arts today. The revered master adopted a young American boy and passed down his lineage to the man we now call Sifu Kaparos. Sifu Kaparos has achieved Master ranking in this system and also holds 10 black belts in other systems of martial arts. The winner of several national titles and the feature of numerous national publications, Sifu Kaparos has been nominated to the Kung-Fu Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos is the head of Green Cloud in the U.S.
Our mission is to foster self-improvement and personal development through focused training. We promote physical fitness and positive social interaction in a courteous and fun atmosphere. Our greatest responsibility is to instill in our students a sense of discipline and a code of ethics to inspire them to lead exemplary lives as leaders in the community.
Our school offers a comprehensive training program in several styles of Kung-Fu and Weapons, and also Kickboxing and Beyond Personal Training. For more specific information about the Green Cloud Kung Fu Academy, please visit About Us or just contact us.
Although we honor Martial Arts traditions that go back centuries, we are dynamic and are constantly seeking new and innovative ways to enthuse and excite our students.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>>


best,

b


Dude all you had to do is click the linkgreencloud.net There is actualy tons of info on the style my master and what not, infact there is tons of info on the forum about Chan Tai San and his teachers.

You can also go to lama.org or just click the link on my site.

Any way I'm not sure why you are so touchy, I just asked why it is that Shaoilin Do uses Japanese terminoligy.

Anyhoo I get the feeling by your attitude that people are not supposed to inquire about your style. Hmmm sounds like you got something to hide that's all.

[Crushing Fist]

GC

I don't think he intended to sound touchy or to imply that questions are not welcome...

It's just that the same questions get asked and the same accusations made so many times it can get repetitive.

For instance your question about the japanese terminology has been answered and debated on this very thread numerous times, despite the fact that it is answered on the history page of the main shaolin-do website and many others.

the answer is that it came to america through indonesia where (as the story goes) it was superficially hidden as a japanese style in order to dissuade a certain cultural bias present there.


It would be very easy to ask why you teach various non-chinese martial arts at your school or why you have a program called "little ninjas" (ninja is a japanese term, right?) but I am not accusing you of anything and I understand that this is just your way.

If you are realy interested in the history of shaolin-do a websearch will bring up quite a lot of information, and quite a lot of the sort of attacks that shaolin-do has been the victim of for quite some time.



as for your question on the "flying tiger" it is a very short introductory form that beginners learn as one of their first "animal styles". It involvles lots of tiger claw palm strikes and rakes, as well as arm locks and traps in a quite compact little set of moves.


all questions are welcome, but please do make an effort to answer the easy ones yourself with the online F.A.Q.s and Histories etc.

Thanks :)

[BentMonk]

Read, learn, turn off computer, go practice your chosen art, be happy.

http://www.zhenwei.org/History/HistoryMartialArts.htm

BTW...Yes, Shaolin Do is for real, at least as real as any other MA practiced today. :D

[brucereiter]

Dude all you had to do is click the linkgreencloud.net There is actualy tons of info on the style my master and what not, infact there is tons of info on the forum about Chan Tai San and his teachers.

You can also go to lama.org or just click the link on my site.

Any way I'm not sure why you are so touchy, I just asked why it is that Shaoilin Do uses Japanese terminoligy.

Anyhoo I get the feeling by your attitude that people are not supposed to inquire about your style. Hmmm sounds like you got something to hide that's all.

hi there green cloud ...

there is nothing to hide. inquire all you want just ask some new questions i have been following this shaolin do internet thing since the mid 90's and it is always the same questions.

asking what flying tiger comes out of the cave is was a good and interesting question.

you and others seem to have such a disdane for shaolin do so i am just asking the same type of questions about your system that we always get asked but you will not answer or will you maybe you have things to hide ...

why did you not answer any of my questions about your art? most of the questions i asked were not answered on your web site. and as far as the ones that were answered by your and related websites were all affiliated in some way to chan tai san and offerd no historical proof. do you have somthing to hide?

i have no problem with what you or any other martial arts group does or how they practice and what they think. in your art just like in shaolin do some students are i am sure very skilled and some are well ya know not so skilled.

i am really interested in the history and legends of martial arts.

below are a few more things that caught my eye from your web sites ... ???

<<Sifu Gus Kaparos
Sifu Gus Kaparos began his training at the age of 6 and is a direct disciple of Grandmaster Chan Tai San. He has instructor level ranking in over 10 styles of martial arts. It was this diverse background that allowed him to be a top student of the grandmaster. This 2 time full contact fighting champion met Si-Gung in the late 1980's. He began his training with Si-Gung and was indescribably impressed by this great teacher, "I am and forever will be in awe of the most talented and knowledgeable Kung-Fu Master I have come to know. It is his incredible Kung-Fu that made me the man I am today." Si-Gung Chan Tai San adopted Sifu Kaparos in a ceremony called a Bai Sei, that meant the door of knowledge would be opened and shared with him. It was the Grandmaster's dream for Sifu Kaparos to share his unique form of Kung-Fu to the students of Green Cloud Kung-Fu. Sifu Kaparos is a pioneer; he opened the first Kung-Fu school to teach openly to the public on Long Island, as well as hosting the first all Kung-Fu tournament in New York. He also was awarded the prestigious "Master of the Year" Award by the International Kung-Fu Association, which also inducted him into their Hall of Fame. Sifu Kaparos has been the feature of numerous magazine articles and television news stories.

Some of these students became instructors. One of these instructors is Sifu Ivan Pellei.>>

10 black belts wow! thats alot. it says started training at age 6, what training was that? what are these black belts in? i thought it took at least 5 years of hard work to earn a black belt. that like 50 years of training before he even met his grandmaster he must be old ...also says did not start training until the "late 1980's" with your grandmaster was it 1989?


<<Grandmaster Chan trained with histories most famous Sifu, and used his Kung-Fu for its intended purpose - Self Preservation. Yes, he actually fought with and killed several people. I say this not to impress you, but to impress upon you that Grandmaster Chan was the last of his generation. The styles he used, the skills he developed, really work. He didn't train to open a school, to earn an income or to be famous. He trained to live.>>

most famous in whos book? do you have proof that he killed several people? or were these people he killed while in the military in ww2 fighting japan?
"he did not train to open a school" maybe ... but it seems many of his students have commercial schools that are making good money. (nothing wrong with making money doing somthing you love though)

<<chan tai san became a Master of dozens of Kung-Fu styles and literally every know Chinese Kung-Fu Weapon, Iron Palm, Iron Body and Internal Energy (Chi). He was well respected in China for his Staff technique and was famous for his "Jao-Gung" or Iron-Claw Skill. He has devoted his entire life to training and promoting Chinese Martial Arts in China and abroad. Grandmaster Chan was the coach of the Canton Province Martial Arts Demonstration Team from 1980-1982,>>

he mastered evvvvvery weapon, ironpalm,iron body, internal energy ???? he mastered so many things! prove it??? if he was famous for these things where are the historical documents to back it up.

<<Atatuojin Ah Da Ta
Founder for the style
1st Generation
(2nd-10th Generation master will be added shortly)

Sing Lung (Lo Jeung)
Venerable Monk
(Responsible for bringing Lama Pai Kung-Fu to China)>>

is there any documentation of these people and there skills outside of their circle of peers? if not they must be fake right. i mean the only things i can find on the internet about them are from affiliated groups. sounds fishy to me ...

best,

b

p.s.

humor is good.

[Green Cloud]

Ok Shaolin DO is cool, Hmm let's see I politely asked [SIZE="4"]two questions
[SIZE="1"]you asked me 50 I don't realy know where to begin, none the less at least I was polite.

I don't like to blow my own horn but I am a senior disciple under the late sifu Chan Tai San.

This is common knowledge both on the forum and the entire CMA comunity. I am one of the first to pioneer CMA to long Island.

I realy don't know what you are upset about, I have never herd of Shaolin Do and decided to ask some questions so I can establish an informed opinion.

As far as having hang ups about how people percieve SD, I wasn't aware that SD had a bad Image, but know I see why.

As far as answering all your questions do your own fokin researce, if you don't know who I am maybe your not a real CMS.

Remember courtesy is contagious but so is roodness.

greencloud.net

[unkokusai]

I don't like to blow my own horn but, if you don't know who I am maybe your not a real CMS.


LOL!


:rolleyes:

[unkokusai]

Remember courtesy is contagious but so is roodness.



But not literacy.


.............................LOL! :D

[Green Cloud]

Crushing Fist first you SDIC didn't mean to be touchy but then read the next post this boy is about to open up a can of woop ass. You people are just to funny :D

Can you say put on these blinders than sighn right here please :(

[unkokusai]

Can you say put on these blinders than sighn right here please



..............................LOL

[Green Cloud]

It's is bull **** stuff like this that gives CMA a bad name. Me " hey guys why Don't you guys compete in CMA " SD " no our tech. are too deadly for competisions. SHH don't ask too many questions because our stuff is too leathal to talk about in public.

Make fun of my spelling all you want unkokusai but ya got to admit it's guys like this that make CMA look culty and stupid.

Common what's the secret, what is it does your lineage date back to the conception of Star Wars. Did SD students have a revelation when they saw Chubaka. Did you all drop to your knees and chant god bless the chosen one.

[Green Cloud]

unkokusai You just jumped to southern forum to stalk me that's spooky. :eek:

Listen dude the moma joke were funny I was just playan wit ya bud. You were just at the right place at the wrong time. ;)

[Green Cloud]

:eek: At this rate with you following me around and helping me with my spelling, I am liable to win a spelling bee. :D

[Green Cloud]

Thanks Max, that does clear thing up for me. As I said before They are Comercial Kempo. It's obvious to me know. :( There are more of them than us but yet they have no pictures no video just a lot of secrecy.

As far as the whole Tourney thing it makes sense. Most franchise schools hold their own tourneys to keep student's from competing in real tornaments. That would be bad for buiss.

[brucereiter]

Thanks Max, that does clear thing up for me. As I said before They are Comercial Kempo. It's obvious to me know. :( There are more of them than us but yet they have no pictures no video just a lot of secrecy.

As far as the whole Tourney thing it makes sense. Most franchise schools hold their own tourneys to keep student's from competing in real tornaments. That would be bad for buiss.

hi green cloud,

please define a "can of whoop ass" ??? please dont open one up if it is what i think it is ... lol ... as far as the whoop ass thing after your 35 years of training you can probably whoop my ass. there are alot of people on this earth who can ...

i really dont think you get the point of my questions to you. i just used you and your system as an example ...
you gave exactly the kind of response i thought you would. you got mad, thought i was disrespecting you etc ... and then you started to insult. i knew you would.

i have heard this same kind of response from sd people ... people are funny!

side note: sin kwang the started teaching in kentucky in the mid 1960's not it the 70's or 80's as stated a few post back. sin the is chinese from indonesia. as stated all over sd websites.

the reason for my long list of stupid questions for you is to make a simple point that your ego seems to not let you hear. i mean no disrespect to you or your teachers with these questions. i am just asking you to prove the history of your art. how can you prove it. will seeing information on some website offer proof? is talking to somone who studies under the same history proof? what is proof?

<<As I said before They are Comercial Kempo>>

i have heard you offer disrespect to shaolin do before i posted my questions to you. for the record the only things i can find on the internet about your styles history is from other schools who study from the same "base" as you.

you have asked more than 2 questions but it is more your statements than your questions i am trying to respond to.

why is it important to "compete" at these stupid cma things? i have never been in one but i have been to a few. i think they are worthless.

as far as shaolin do "being to deadly for competition" you can take the original quote out of context if you like. who cares ...
i train to be healthy and to learn/know how to fight/not get into fights and oh yeah it's fun, not for some stupid competition. the only person to compete with is your self in my opinion.

<<I don't like to blow my own horn but I am a senior disciple under the late sifu Chan Tai San.
This is common knowledge both on the forum and the entire CMA comunity. I am one of the first to pioneer CMA to long Island.>>

cult???

is being one of the first to long island why you offer the little ninja's program and cardio kickboxing?

i am a junior student under a student of grandmaster the ... it is common knowledge on my block. (i am a funny guy!)

if there are any secrets in our art i have not been let in on them. every sd school i know of anyone can watch classes ... there are also several sd clips on the net some good some bad ... just use google (the modern day orical, you dont have to climb the mountain anymore and you get more than one question ... lol)

you forgot to answer my question about all 10 of your black belts.

best,

b

p.s. now i know why i never posted before. it takes to much time. i gotta get up early in the morning to practice ...

[Judge Pen]

Green Cloud, I can give you a bit more info on these folks. SD is a money maker started @ 70's or 80's after the Bruce Lee craze similar to other non-Chinese arts possing as Chinese.

Nope, it started late sixties.

Very similar to Chung Moo Do.

I'm sorry, but CMD is a cult. SD is not.

It is a system put together by some guy (from Indonesia) who collected a bunch of forms and put together some self defense and marketed it in America to make money, like your Fred Villari's or Chung Moo Do.

They are both from Indonesia, yes. They both have a bunch of forms, yes. Nothing wrong with making money. Green Clound, do you teach for free?

They sprout schools like rabbits mating and charge for everything under the sun.

One of the things about SD that I like and don't like is that they do encourage you to teach after you reach a certain level. Most of these schools are small schools that don't pay rent. My first schools was in a high school gym one day a week. I paid $20 bucks a month. My current school is in the fellowship hall of a Babptist Church. I pay $40 buck a month. Hardly a money maker! I don't have to buy my uniform from them; I don't buy my weapons from them. We occassionally do seminars; some I take and some I don't. Other schools might be different, but it's unfair to say its all SD schools. But, I do learn more when I teach, so teaching is an important part of being an overall student.

Only compete in their own tournaments.

Nope. I have competed in as many open style tournaments as I have only SD tournamanets. Two pages back was a clip of a guy who won in a couple of MMA matches. You just don't know what you are talking about there.

And everything is magical and mysterious about their art. Almost cult like.

Nope. There's your share of CMA chi talk there, but it's not any different than many CMA schools that I've visited and worked out with.

There is absolutely nothing related to Chinese Culture in teaching, tradition, respect, etc....

Again, it depends on the school. Most of the first students were country boys from Kentucky, so there is less of that than schools that oringnated in a metropolitan area with a large Asina community.

And they are touchy because everyone is poking and asking questions.

I have answered every question about SD (including all of these types of criticisms) since day one. Sometimes I get tired and frusterated, but never worried that the "truth" will come out. If anything, these forums have helped put me in contact with people that confirm much of what I am taught, not discredit it.

I have a bone with groups like this because I was taken by one and spent a lot of time and money and effort training in somethign that was not what it was told to me to be.

So you're biased (like me). Everyone should take anything we say on these topics with some levity, right?

I did however some good basic training out of it.

Good. I think I have gotten some good basic training too, but wihtout the cult-like atmosphere.

And they will not know the CMA community or understand a respect line or tradition. ??? ok, man, whatever.

Hope this clarifies????? Still 119 pages of this stuff. I now will go play somewhere else on the forum.

Good talking to you. Seriously, feel free to post or PM me as I would love to know why your opinion on SD should be taken over any others, what your experiences in other arts are, and how much experience (and with who) in Sd you have. You know, basic information to allow us some insight in your perspective.

[Judge Pen]

GC, I know your teacher and I respect him. I've seen him demo before. I will post the vids I talked about. The things that SDIC is posting about your website is just things that indicatee marketing. I'm a fan of marketing and the economic model. But is unsubtle point is that anyone can take something from a site out of context and make a federal case over it. Peace and be patient for the videos. (Or send me your mailing address and I'll send them to you on a DVD) I have no secrets at all about this style.

[Green Cloud]

Good morning JP, first of all let me start by oppologizing to you i meant no disrespect. I was just making a point about courtesy to your boy shaolindoiscool.

I am very curious about all systems of martial arts and that is where my questions come from.

As far as releasing a can of woop ass, that was another point I was making to SDIC. Basicaly what I meant was hey you threw the first stone if you don't want me to be a ***** then act accordingly.

This kid has a thing about my ranking and the answere to question is yes I have advanced ranking in many styles including Japanese systems. My feelings about Black belts is that you can wipe your ass with them.

Oh yeah little Ninjas is a curriculum that many MA schools use to teach small children, if you own a school you probably know about it. It's just a cute name that kids relate to. For that matter it could be called the little power rangers program, or the dragons program.

Cardio kickboxing, is not part of kung fu program it is what it is a cardio program and just focuses on kick boxing drills, you know jumping rope bags and focus mits.

It actualy gets the main stream market into our school and brings a lot of money into my school, this keeps me from having to water down my kung fu curiculum and so I can traditional.

Aside from my vast knowledge of CMA I am also a MA buiss. profesional and a consultant. If you guys ever need a hand or a seminar on how to run a profitable MA school without compromising your ethics I am available.

As far as doing a style that not many have herd of that's lama. Ask any respected CMA sifu and they will tell ya about it. It's not a secret it's just rare. My core curiculum is Choy lee fut, not a secret at all. It's one of the most popular systems practiced world wide.

As you can see from my website I'm very open to what ever works. Once again my intentions here is not to bash but to share Ideas and that takes asking questions.

I have not had the time to read all 112 pages on this thread due to the fact there seems to be a lot of bashing.

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.

More info on this style would realy stop people from formulating ignorant opinions. As far as Lama is concerned it maybe rare but their is lot's of info on the style and pictures and video to satisfy peoples curiosity.

Everyone gets made fun of from time to time, do you know how many time people have asked me if our Lama style primarily focuses on Spiting on people.:)

Information keeps peolple well informed and keeps them from formulating biassed opinions.

Oh yea thanks for advertizing my web site Shaolindoiscool.


greenclou.net

[brucereiter]

Good morning JP, first of all let me start by oppologizing to you i meant no disrespect. I was just making a point about courtesy to your boy shaolindoiscool.

I am very curious about all systems of martial arts and that is where my questions come from.

As far as releasing a can of woop ass, that was another point I was making to SDIC. Basicaly what I meant was hey you threw the first stone if you don't want me to be a ***** then act accordingly.

This kid has a thing about my ranking and the answere to question is yes I have advanced ranking in many styles including Japanese systems. My feelings about Black belts is that you can wipe your ass with them.

Oh yeah little Ninjas is a curriculum that many MA schools use to teach small children, if you own a school you probably know about it. It's just a cute name that kids relate to. For that matter it could be called the little power rangers program, or the dragons program.

Cardio kickboxing, is not part of kung fu program it is what it is a cardio program and just focuses on kick boxing drills, you know jumping rope bags and focus mits.

It actualy gets the main stream market into our school and brings a lot of money into my school, this keeps me from having to water down my kung fu curiculum and so I can traditional.

Aside from my vast knowledge of CMA I am also a MA buiss. profesional and a consultant. If you guys ever need a hand or a seminar on how to run a profitable MA school without compromising your ethics I am available.

As far as doing a style that not many have herd of that's lama. Ask any respected CMA sifu and they will tell ya about it. It's not a secret it's just rare. My core curiculum is Choy lee fut, not a secret at all. It's one of the most popular systems practiced world wide.

As you can see from my website I'm very open to what ever works. Once again my intentions here is not to bash but to share Ideas and that takes asking questions.

I have not had the time to read all 112 pages on this thread due to the fact there seems to be a lot of bashing.

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.

More info on this style would realy stop people from formulating ignorant opinions. As far as Lama is concerned it maybe rare but their is lot's of info on the style and pictures and video to satisfy peoples curiosity.

Everyone gets made fun of from time to time, do you know how many time people have asked me if our Lama style primarily focuses on Spiting on people.:)

Information keeps peolple well informed and keeps them from formulating biassed opinions.

Oh yea thanks for advertizing my web site Shaolindoiscool.


greenclou.net

hi green cloud,

let me start this over on the right foot. my "stupid" questions were meant to make a point. i dont think i made it very well though ... sorry for any offense given, but you did respond the way i thought you would ...

i know your grandmaster/system is well known and respected. my questions were not meant to state other wise and no you do not need to prove anything to me or anyone else.

the point i was trying to make was that people can take bits of info from websites and second hand stories they hear and twist it into a bunch of bullsh*t. my intention was not to insult or discredit you or anyone in your system.

i think it is good to make money doing martial arts even to get rich as long as you remain honest, though some people fault shaolin do for that.

i also think it is good to teach children, with most 7 year olds you cant really go to far into "traditional martial arts" you do need to keep in fun and healthy for children and then when the mature they can start to learn the "real" stuff. we have a similar program for children it is i guess a simplified version of what the adults are taught + a few games to keep it fun, i dont think every shaolin do school has this but many people fault shaolin do schools that do.

i have nothing against your rankinig in the 10 other systems, it is actually pretty cool. i think it is good.

the things i posted before are just typical bullsh*t things that people would say about shaolin do. i think it is good to have a well rounded martial background and i do try to meet and feel as many people/styles as i can. i have also studied a few systems before discovering and deciding to stick with shaolin do and they have all enhanced my training here.

regarding what you said about black belt ranking, the senior student of shaolin do under grandmaster the is elder master bill leonard. i have never met him but was told that he said something
like you can take away my rank and the belt around my waist but you can not take away my training or skill. i think that is in line with what you said about wiping you ass with black belts. (it might be a miss quote ... it is second hand info. )

let me respectfully ask, what kinds of information do you think shaolin do should put out there?

oh yeah, you make me feel so young calling me kid ... we are probably about the same age ... you are welcome for the free advertising ... lol ...

its funny you talk about spitting. the first martial arts teacher i had when i was a kid taught a "mantis" like system (he just called it his family style, he was from loas. and i was friends with his son i was only with him for about 3 years ...) but anyways he taught me to collect alot of spit by rubbing my tounge on the top of my mouth and to spit in the face the second before attacking ... maybe you can incorporate that into your lama style. lol ... (humor) ...

you said you only asked questions ... i think you made a few "statements" too ...

best,

b

p.s. your website is pretty good. not trying to make enemies ... just trying to make a point.

[Golden Tiger]

It's not my fault that SD members have a lot of hang ups about their style, I did't create that bagage, I just asked some questions that's all.


I don't think its the members that have the hang up's, as you can infer by the way they defend the style that they have decided to study. And to be perfectly honest, I can't really understand why everyone else does. Sure, there are former disgruntled students that come on from time to time and throw a shot here and there but the rest of you all, beats me.


As for Max wang, he just seems bitter and unhappy in general. His information is wrong, he is upset because he took some classes from someone and still got beat up and just seems tee'd off at the world.

As for the idea that teaching SD is for the money, thats the funniest thing I have heard thus far. Having been around for many years, I can only count a few that have actually turned a profit. As JP stated, most teach in places where the rent is low or free, charge MUCH less than any other school and do a lot of free demos and such for their communities. They don't teach for the money, they teach because they want to share.

[Green Cloud]

Hey nobody here has taken a vow of poverty, making money is part of life and there is nothing wrong with that.

Martial arts is a valuable service and it comes at a premium like everything else in this world.

[Ralphie]

This is an interesting thread, in that it shows a range of thoughts over time. There is a core group of posters on it, and the occasional newbie. Mostly it is the same thing being discussed/argued, but there are subtle transitions that have taken place. I definitely have had my opinions about SD, but for me it (SD) is more representational about martial arts and how they are taught in general. I think, and have thought for a while, that SD is no better or worse than a good portion of traditional styles being "marketed" today. Here is a list of things about SD that I remember, and how I rate them. Keep in mind that it's been years since I've taken Kung Fu of any kind, and that I've actually trained BJJ/MMA for several years now. Another thing to mention is that I learned SD from one school, and so my views are narrowed by region/instructors:
1) Forms- I like forms in KF for what they are. They can be a very athletic and interesting part of an art. I don't think they relate well to actual fighting, but whatever. I'd rate the forms in SD medium, as I did not see a structure that allowed the performer to prepare for maximum expression. Once you had learned a form, there was little reason to remember it besides testing. I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.
2) Weapons- Prolly the coolest part of SD. Maybe not practical, but fun. People's weapons forms in SD were better than their empty hand forms, too.
4) Conditioning- People were generally in good aerobic shape in my classes. The instructors did a good job emphasizing that. People who were never involved in athletics I would imagine love this about SD.
3) Instruction- The main instructors I had were very nice. Within the structure of SD, I'm sure they were good. The instruction from fellow upper belts in SD was a crap shoot. You could see many bad habits being passed along by people who filled in gaps based on assumptions in their own training. Major bummer that part.
4) Fighting- Some good, but mostly not ideal. You start to spar right away, but the techniques of fighting are generally not solid. Prior to starting SD I had a meager background in boxing and wrestling, and I could pretty easily beat 3rd + degree black belts. There are some tough guys in SD, though. I think that's a plus for that group.
5) Cost- If you just went to class, it's pretty cheap. If you start to add seminars and tests, it can be a little expensive. People like that stuff though, and I'm a capitalist. I have no problem with people making money, as long as it's ethical.
6) Philosophy- Generally a hodge podge of stories. Nothing real coherent or well conceived, except for the standard bow to your sensei crapola. Ultimately, there's a kind of romantic placement of yourself as the new shaolin monk. You know, the selfless warrior. Nothing real dangerous, but a bit goofy and unrealistic. Kind of the westerner's take on eastern philosophy. Which is really just an idealized humanistic view.
7) History- If you examine it without having drunk the coolaid, you would probably conclude it's mainly bs. If you were to present the history as a case in court, a rational thinking jury would find it dubious.
8) General- Mostly, the bs part of SD is harmless. Who cares if the history of GM so and so is a bit of a stretch? Well, to me the problem lies more in the ability of some to feel adding to bs is ok, even if it's a dangerous postion to take. Such as the old example of telling your students "biting" genitals is a good counter method to grappling, or that some type of iron body training will prevent certain types of injury. I also don't like to deal with people that aren't on the level. It's hard to admit fault, or lack of understanding, but it's much more respectful and clean. As I've thought about it, I don't like that about SD at all. I think it's a norm in the traditional MA school of thought/ethics, though. So, once again, SD is no better or worse.

Anyway, that's my non-troll attempt in talking about SD. I'll say hello to GT, cause he'll undoubtedly say hello to me, along with a thinly veiled insult. GT, I hope you didn't feel dumber having read that. God knows you don't need to be dumber (take that not so thinly veiled insult ;)
-Steve

[Judge Pen]

Ultimately, there's a kind of romantic placement of yourself as the new shaolin monk. You know, the selfless warrior. Nothing real dangerous, but a bit goofy and unrealistic. Kind of the westerner's take on eastern philosophy. Which is really just an idealized humanistic view.

Ralphie, I'll say hello also,

I thought this was a bit funny so I included it in the post. No romanticized idea of a monk here. Far from it, I enjoy the vices of thi world a bit too much for that (fortunately I think this was an emphasis of your former school and teachers rather than mine).

Thanks for objective take on a former student's take on SD. The one criticism that is patently unfair, and I think that your post dispelled (at least from your persepctive), is that SD's a cult. Granted there's certainly our share of kung fu weirdos that will latch on to anything and blow it out of proportion, but I think that any TCMA school has that element in it.

You made it to first black before you quit, right? I didn't know that you had stopped training kung fu althogether. Last I heard you were a closed door student of a different kung fu teacher getting excellent instruction. When did that change?

[lxtruong]

I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.


I never really understood open forms competition, myself. If they don't know if you're doing it right or not, what's to keep people from covering their mistakes/making up crap on the spot?

For instance, I was doing a demo a little under a year go. Get up there, and about 5 postures in, start messing up. From that point on, I'm pulling moves out of order, out of my a$$. Finish facing the wrong way. Crowd loved it. All the 2nd degrees and up knew I had screwed up, but that's because they knew the kata.

[Judge Pen]

Crap!!! I can't figure out how to post the videos!!! I have a youtupb account but the fight I was going to post is 443MB and they only allow 100MB. I think I have my Kwan Dao form posted, though. I'll post the link when its done uploading.

Oh, if I sent someone a video with the fight, could they post it somewhere. I hate trying to figure out this computer stuff. It's not my thing.

[Judge Pen]

I never really understood open forms competition, myself. If they don't know if you're doing it right or not, what's to keep people from covering their mistakes/making up crap on the spot?

For instance, I was doing a demo a little under a year go. Get up there, and about 5 postures in, start messing up. From that point on, I'm pulling moves out of order, out of my a$$. Finish facing the wrong way. Crowd loved it. All the 2nd degrees and up knew I had screwed up, but that's because they knew the kata.


But fundamental technique, spirit, power and flow should still be present. Those are the things that are judged at an open tournament--not that you left part of the form out b/c no one would know but you and those of your style.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

[Ralphie]

Hey JP. I think at the time, 3 or so years ago, I realized that the closed door instruction thing was even more dubious. It was more thourough and detailed than SD, but equally open to bs. I prolly hadn't really been studying kf for a few years before that. I trained it occasionally, but really had made the switch to the bjj/mma thing. The clincher was that I sparred my kf instructor after a few months of grappling, and beat him pretty easily. I also just realized that for me, I liked the fighting part of martial arts. I like to watch forms and weapons, but I don't really have an interest beyond that in them. For the sake of argument, I used the closed door training as a comparison to SD. I occasionally got caugt up in the argument itself, and over-emphasized a part of what I had experienced in TCMA for that sake only. Ah, the difference in writing about and acting upon.

I don't think SD is a cult. Misperceptions and falsehoods can live within SD because it is not as transparent as it could or should be. However, there's no one in SD asking you to quit your life and follow Sin The'. There's no one doing unlawful or extremely unethical things that I know of. Instructors don't break people down so they can take all of their belongings, or dominate them mentally and emotionally. So no, it's not a cult at all.

LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

[BentMonk]

JP you looked good sir. Congrats on all the new and happy events in your life as well. You've still gotta come see us Louisville SD guys sometime. KBs will make a man outta ya. :D

[MasterKiller]

Crap!!! I can't figure out how to post the videos!!! I have a youtupb account but the fight I was going to post is 443MB and they only allow 100MB. I think I have my Kwan Dao form posted, though. I'll post the link when its done uploading.

Oh, if I sent someone a video with the fight, could they post it somewhere. I hate trying to figure out this computer stuff. It's not my thing.


Open Windows Movie Maker, import the clip, drag it on the timeline, click "Save to my Comuter", save it Video for Broadband 512Kbps.

Should come in at betwee 5 or 10 MB.

[brucereiter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

well done! thanks for posting it. i really like that form. keep practicing.

[brucereiter]

Hey JP. I think at the time, 3 or so years ago, I realized that the closed door instruction thing was even more dubious. It was more thourough and detailed than SD, but equally open to bs. I prolly hadn't really been studying kf for a few years before that. I trained it occasionally, but really had made the switch to the bjj/mma thing. The clincher was that I sparred my kf instructor after a few months of grappling, and beat him pretty easily. I also just realized that for me, I liked the fighting part of martial arts. I like to watch forms and weapons, but I don't really have an interest beyond that in them. For the sake of argument, I used the closed door training as a comparison to SD. I occasionally got caugt up in the argument itself, and over-emphasized a part of what I had experienced in TCMA for that sake only. Ah, the difference in writing about and acting upon.

I don't think SD is a cult. Misperceptions and falsehoods can live within SD because it is not as transparent as it could or should be. However, there's no one in SD asking you to quit your life and follow Sin The'. There's no one doing unlawful or extremely unethical things that I know of. Instructors don't break people down so they can take all of their belongings, or dominate them mentally and emotionally. So no, it's not a cult at all.

LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

hi ralphie,

you made two very thoughtful posts about your experience i like that for the most part you only really spoke about your first hand experiences.

i would like to address one point (quoted below) you made though ... i think it is the fault of the student almost more than the instructor if they dont "relate" the forms to "fighting" and learn how to apply the pricipals and concepts containd in the forms. if the student does not work and experiment he will not be able to apply the forms.

i too have noticed that many people around me just learn the basic movements of whatever form only to test with it and never really dig into it and therfore can not apply the movements and have no "real" understanding, "inho" thats there problem/fault, if some teachers allow and encourge this that is unfortunate i think i have always been taught and agree it is up to the student the teacher is just a guide.

i think students have diffrent goals as long as they are happy and becoming more healthy all is good even if they can fight there way out of a wet paper bag.

having said that i will agree the way most martial artists train their forms they will never be able to fight with them ...

<<1) Forms- I like forms in KF for what they are. They can be a very athletic and interesting part of an art. I don't think they relate well to actual fighting, but whatever. I'd rate the forms in SD medium, as I did not see a structure that allowed the performer to prepare for maximum expression. Once you had learned a form, there was little reason to remember it besides testing. I think competing in forms tourneys would help SD a lot.>>

live and let live and keep training & sweating no matter what art you chose!

[Fu-Pow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m203c8l6B7w

Ignore the cheesy music. I was playing around and forgot to delete it when I burned the DVD. Anyway, this is me. I'll wait to hear your feedback and then give you my thoughts and critique later. It's not perfect, but it is a representation of an SD weapon form done by yours truly.

Hey JP, thanks for posting that...you've joined the elite club of those who will put their **** out there for critique.

A couple of questions and constructive criticisms.....

1) What is the purpose of that portion of the form where it looks like you are tiptoeing?

2) Watch that back foot in the Bow Stance. Don't let your let your back foot tilt onto the side like that, it shows that your weight is too far forward.

3) For a weapon like Guan Do you need to have a deeper stance. Its a heavy weapon so you need to really root strongly to the ground. As my Sifu says "Control the weapon, don't let it control you." Especially difficult with a weapon like Guando.

4) Make sure that you're eyes follow the direction of the weapon till the end of the movement. It looks like in a couple spots you are rushing to the next movement before finishing the last one. You turn your head before you have finished.

Overall, nice job though. Keep the videos coming.

FP

[lxtruong]

But fundamental technique, spirit, power and flow should still be present. Those are the things that are judged at an open tournament--not that you left part of the form out b/c no one would know but you and those of your style.

I agree that sure all those things are important. But I don't think that BSing should be rewarded. To the extent that "correctness" is not checked, you're rewarding people who are able to make mistakes but correct for them in an inobtrusive manner. You're essentially rewarding people for covering up for their own mistakes.

Imagine a figure skating competition where the judges didn't know the routine beforehand. You could turn a triple lutz into a double and no one would know, as long as you landed gracefully. Or the same thing with gymnastics. Or ballroom dancing. Or platform diving. If you look at any "judged" sport, you'll see that they have some requirements for "correctness", as a safeguard. That's why I think that open forms competition aren't all that great.


LX, open forms comps would help SD open up to a community of fellow TCMA'ists. It would improve your forms because it takes you out of your comfort zone, and demand examination in way that's unfamiliar but healthy. The example you gave reflects that. You had an awareness due to the pressure of performing for an audience. It's funny that you gave an example of why you should compete, and then said you don't know why it's meaningful.

I gave an example of how I pull absolute bull out of my rear end and the uninitiated loved it. I don't really see how that's all that meaningful. I don't think that I really got all that much out of it, except manage limit the audience where I embarassed myself and my teacher to a small select group instead of a large group.

An analogy of what I did would be for someone assigned with the task of giving a speech in Spanish walking up and speaking in gibberish. Good thing most of the crowd didn't know Spanish!

I think that teaching does much much much (times infinity) more to demand examination in a way that's unfamiliar. I don't know how many times I've been asked a question about XYZ form and it has forced me to give a critical look at my forms. Frequently the answer is "I don't know". I get something out of that too. Plus I get to keep the entry fee for the tournament and I don't have another cheap trophy littering my room.

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP, thanks for posting that...you've joined the elite club of those who will put their **** out there for critique.

A couple of questions and constructive criticisms.....

1) What is the purpose of that portion of the form where it looks like you are tiptoeing?

INTERESTING THAT YOU PICKED UP ON THAT. I DON'T KNOW ANY PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF THAT PART OF THE FORM. STYLISTICALLY ITS AN HOMAGE TO THE KWAN DAO BEING A BATTLEFIELD WEAPON--STEPPING OVER CARNAGE OF BATTLE.

2) Watch that back foot in the Bow Stance. Don't let your let your back foot tilt onto the side like that, it shows that your weight is too far forward.

YEP. GUILTY AS CHARGED. IT'S ONE OF THE CRITICISMS I HAVE OF MYSELF AFTER WATCHING THAT FORM. I THINK ITS A PROBLEM OF ME BEING EXTREMELY UNFLEXIBLE IN MY HIPS. MY BACK FOOT IS COMING UP ON CERTAIN STANCES IF I DON'T WATCH IT.

3) For a weapon like Guan Do you need to have a deeper stance. Its a heavy weapon so you need to really root strongly to the ground. As my Sifu says "Control the weapon, don't let it control you." Especially difficult with a weapon like Guando.

YEP. I WAS A BIT NERVOUS AND RUSHING IN SPOTS. BECAUSE OF THAT, I WAS LAZY AND UNDISCIPLINED IN NOT FORCING MY STANCES LOWER.

4) Make sure that you're eyes follow the direction of the weapon till the end of the movement. It looks like in a couple spots you are rushing to the next movement before finishing the last one. You turn your head before you have finished.

YEP. I SHOULD SLOW DOWN A COUPLE OF MOVEMENTS THERE. I WAS RUSHING. (SEE ABOVE)

Overall, nice job though. Keep the videos coming.

FP

Very observant. Thanks for the criticisms. Like I said, I'm not that good (especially at forms); but I keep coming back to class. All you can do is work to get better. What you say isn't anything I haven't heard form my teachers, but I always appreciate another perspective.

[Radhnoti]

Nice JP. Those spinning moves always seemed to throw me off for the end of that form. Always ended it winded and a bit disoriented. :o
An interesting sidenote, an aikido school in Richmond, KY just started (today) offering a kwando form. Seems the instructor picked it up on a trip to China researching the roots of his art. I'm pretty sure I've seen it somewhere though...
;)

[Ralphie]

Looked pretty good, JP. You should post more of those, that one was fun to watch.

sdic,
I knew someone was going to say that, and I dont' agree with you. It's an inneficient way to learn and teach techniques. The delivery system lacks realistic conditions. Try and pull your most advanced stuff on a serious san shou or mma competitor, then come back and tell me how this or that technique derived from this or that form helped you win. Bring video. To put it succinctly, I don't believe you unless you have proof. It's too convenient to say "it's up to the student", when you yourself have never shown it outside the safety net of your school.

LX,
Who cares what beginners think,? It's what you found out during that experience that matters. If you got up and passed gibberish for Spanish in front of people, and your goal was to speak Spanish fluently, wouldn't that experience tell you what you needed to do in order to reach your goal? If you get in front of someone and blow your form, then work to correct that, you get better. That's why you compete, or a good reason anyway. If you performed that form side by side with other competitors, wouldn't it be obvious that you blew it to the judges? You said yourself the other black belts knew it. Anyway, if you don't care about trophies, there are many other reasons to compete.

[brucereiter]

Looked pretty good, JP. You should post more of those, that one was fun to watch.

sdic,
I knew someone was going to say that, and I dont' agree with you. It's an inneficient way to learn and teach techniques. The delivery system lacks realistic conditions. Try and pull your most advanced stuff on a serious san shou or mma competitor, then come back and tell me how this or that technique derived from this or that form helped you win. Bring video. To put it succinctly, I don't believe you unless you have proof. It's too convenient to say "it's up to the student", when you yourself have never shown it outside the safety net of your school.


hi ralphie,

you do not have to agree with me ... what i said is just my opinion.
you say forms are an inefficiant way to learn and teach techniques, by themselves yes they are. i will agree if you want to be able to fight within a year or so mma type of format might do you better.

i have the good fortune to travel around the world about 7 months per year for my job (for more than 15 years) and have visited many martial artists representing alot styles. i have seen/felt alot of what is out there.

through being polite when meeting teachers at schools around the world i have been able to join classes and or spar/push hands with many people outside of my system and the "safty net" of my school and most of them have respected my understanding/skill. i am one shaolin do student who does not wear blinders there are others too ... i think jp from what i have read of his posts has been out there a bit to see how others do things.

i stand by my statement that it is up to the student to gain skill. in the context of your mma training i would think this is true too. if you do not "make the move your own" it is no good. you do not need to belive me.

"pull my most advanced stuff" i say this tounge in cheek but it is kinda true, my most advanced stuff it no to be in a situation where i have to fight.
having said that though ...
i will respond to what ever the situation asks for. in no way am i saying i cant be beat, i am sure i can be beat as can anybody.

also note i am an "internal arts only" student. we have alot fewer "forms" but each style on its own does take a lifetime to refine but maybe only 3-5 years to "learn".
i am saying i can use taijiquan for example to defend myself against a resisting person, yes the taijiquan i learned in shaolin do. sorry i have no video for your proof but it does not matter what you think of my training and skills it only matters what i think.

(i think jp said that your sd rank was black belt) in the context of shaolin do that is a beginner. i do not think you put in very much effort into what you were taught in sd and that is why you got no results.

in your mma training i would think the guys that have been there for 8-10 years and work really hard i would think can pull things off that you maybe never thought of or cant do. why? because they have experimented and practiced and expanded on what their teachers have shared with them (inho). but then i bet there are some who have been there just as long who get "owned" by a guy with 2-3 years under their belt.
what does that say about mma? my answer is nothing it only speaks about some students.

if you are every in atlanta feel free to drop by the school. you will see a wide range of skill and understanding. some people will make you say wow thats cool and others you might say ummm??? what is he doing? but all of them are bettering themselves, and having a good time becoming more healthy.

in my experience mma/bjj type fighters are very skilled and good fighters the several i have had the chance to "roll" with were very talented.

on that note i would advise all students to go outside of their "safety net" and find out how others do things. for me doing that reasured me i made the right decision to study shaolin do.

live and let live!

[Green Cloud]

hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers:)

[Judge Pen]

hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers:)

Don't. That wasn't the point of me posting. I never said I was a forms person. I enjoy them, but I'm not good at them so any criticism of my peformance will be well received as its probably honest and good advice.

As for the form itself, I expect some to pick at it because its an SD form. So, since I have the expectation that people will hate it, then people only live up to my expectations or they exceed it. No worries there.

I'll still get the sparring match up where I fought well, made a couple of bad mistakes, and lost. It should so, though, that whatever SD teaches, it does teach you to handle yourslef as well as any TMA.

[Golden Tiger]

I'll say hello to GT, cause he'll undoubtedly say hello to me, along with a thinly veiled insult. GT, I hope you didn't feel dumber having read that. God knows you don't need to be dumber (take that not so thinly veiled insult

Hey there Ralphie!! Long time no see bud. And the only reason that I toss out the in****s "thinly veiled"...is so you can get them. Otherwise, they would fly right over your head my friend.:cool:


hey JP you are definatly a man of your word. Interesting video, I will keep my coments about it to my self so I don't ruffle any feathers

Not to use JP as a target (and by the way JP, very good job!) but I am interested in hearing your critique of the form as well. Perhaps that will shed some light on where some of your other comments come from.

[Judge Pen]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well. As for being a target, well, we knew that would happen as soon as I posted. In fact, I welcome it as I'm tired of people saying that we have something to hide. I don't; even though I'm certainly not even close to a good forms person in our style. I'm more of an example of the average guy with some athletic limitations that learns our style.

My personal opinion is that this form is sign better than some and worse than others of the infamous Atlanta forms.

[lxtruong]

Who cares what beginners think,? It's what you found out during that experience that matters. If you got up and passed gibberish for Spanish in front of people, and your goal was to speak Spanish fluently, wouldn't that experience tell you what you needed to do in order to reach your goal? If you get in front of someone and blow your form, then work to correct that, you get better. That's why you compete, or a good reason anyway. If you performed that form side by side with other competitors, wouldn't it be obvious that you blew it to the judges? You said yourself the other black belts knew it. Anyway, if you don't care about trophies, there are many other reasons to compete.

All these things are perhaps true. Of course I needed more practice, I decided on the form 45 seconds before walking on the floor. But I think that your arguement for attending open competitions is still weak. In my mind there are several reasons to compete in a tournament (forms):

1. To test your form performing skills against others.
2. As a "goal" so that you have a hard date to practice against.
3. To test your skill in performing in front of others.
4. For fun.
5. To impress hot chicks (just kidding, girls aren't impressed by forms).

In my mind, open forms compeition are inferior in #1, and reinforce bad habits in #3. Obviously, no matter how much you say 'doesn't matter how I place', your ranking in a competition still matters. It's an "objective" judge of how well you did. By entering a competition, you're implicitly recognizing that. So, I don't think that open forms competition are good for #1 because it gives an incomplete judgement of your forms skill. I don't think that anyone here would argue that it doesn't really matter if you ever do a form correctly; that it only matters that you do it with spirit and power. In that case why bother doing a form at all. Just stand there in a bow stance and do a bunch of punches and kicks and yell. Also, I think that even if you disregard the judging and say "Ok, who cares about them, *I'm* going to compare myself against my competition"...YOU don't know if they're doing it correctly or not. So all YOU can compare against is spirit and power and how well they yell and act.

Open forms competition fail in #3, again because they have no way of reinforcing correctness. If a competitor A gets up in front of the judges with no one else from his style there and totally blows his/her kata, there is no mechanism to punish them for that. Sure, you can argue that the competitor knows that he messed up, but what's to prevent him from just saying "Well, I totally screwed that up, but I won 3rd place anyway, oh well who cares". I think that devalues the competition, and actually devalues forms practice: after all who cares about correctness?

Open compeition are in my mind, perfectly a-ok for #2, #4 and #5 (ha!). But then again so are closed competitions, and I feel that they're superior for #1 and #3. Now, I'm not above doing something for fun, don't get me wrong. I'd probably do open competitions: IF THEY WEREN'T EXPENSIVE (oh yeah, and I weren't barred from some CMA tournaments because we wear karate gis). Proper prep. for a tournament requires a lot of work, and it's one thing to do it 'just for fun' knowing that the judging system is flawed if it's free or cheap. It's another thing to put in a lot of work, pay a lot of money, and then realize that the judging is flawed.

P.S. none of this applies to sparring. Obviously the rules of sparring are published well beforehand, and if you're not comfortable punching and kicking that's your problem. Everyone plays by the same rules there, so it truly is objective (within the limits of the quality of the judges).

[lxtruong]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well. As for being a target, well, we knew that would happen as soon as I posted. In fact, I welcome it as I'm tired of people saying that we have something to hide. I don't; even though I'm certainly not even close to a good forms person in our style. I'm more of an example of the average guy with some athletic limitations that learns our style.

My personal opinion is that this form is sign better than some and worse than others of the infamous Atlanta forms.

I think that the form was pretty good. I'd put it at above average, although the form actually is limited in respect in how it is set up to show off physical ability/formsmanship (Is that a real word?). In any case, the first thing I noticed was that you really like to high step when you do the steps which looked a bit funny to me but that's just a matter of style. The second thing I noticed was that the kwan dao looked flimsy. I personally think that the weight of the KD really factors into that form. If I'm judging that form and you're using a 13+ lb kwan dao you're forgiven for some bad stances. If you're using a 4lber, you dont' really have very much excuse for not hitting every bow stance.

[Judge Pen]

I think that the form was pretty good. I'd put it at above average, although the form actually is limited in respect in how it is set up to show off physical ability/formsmanship (Is that a real word?). In any case, the first thing I noticed was that you really like to high step when you do the steps which looked a bit funny to me but that's just a matter of style. The second thing I noticed was that the kwan dao looked flimsy. I personally think that the weight of the KD really factors into that form. If I'm judging that form and you're using a 13+ lb kwan dao you're forgiven for some bad stances. If you're using a 4lber, you dont' really have very much excuse for not hitting every bow stance.

It was lighter, but not flimsy. It has a live blade on it. I've used it to chop wood before (It was made by cold steel). It's only about 5lbs though.

And I was taught to step that way from my first teacher a long time ago. It stuck.

[Golden Tiger]

And GT, I'd like to hear your critique of the form as well.

Content wise, dead on. Looks pretty close to the way I learned it when it was first taught. Also, I watched it at about 4 am and can't pull it up at the moment but first impressions:

To be using a lighter version of the weapon, I would have thought you could have done the spins a little faster. If you had zipped it around at the opening, I think it would have looked a tad more impressive.

The stances were a tad high (especially from a M. Mullins student) and could have landed a bit more solid. As bad as it hurts to agree with Fu. it is a strong weapon and the user needs to be as rooted as possible.

Other than that, it looked fine. And I would hope that everyone will take into consideration that it was done during a competition. I have seen many kick butt in practice but as soon as they took the floor in a comp, the nerves and such caused minor mistakes such as high stances.

As for the walk back/tip toeing/what ever...I have seen that done many many ways, depending on what M. Sin had on his mind the day he taught it. The current version is at each step, you look side to side, and if creeping along looking for an attack. Who knows the real application....

[hungsingclf]

jp,

much respect for putting up vid of yourself. and you didn't blow your knee out this time:eek:

[Judge Pen]

To be using a lighter version of the weapon, I would have thought you could have done the spins a little faster. If you had zipped it around at the opening, I think it would have looked a tad more impressive.

The stances were a tad high (especially from a M. Mullins student) and could have landed a bit more solid. As bad as it hurts to agree with Fu. it is a strong weapon and the user needs to be as rooted as possible.


Eh, I'm old and slow. That's about top speed for the spin. :p

To my teacher's defense, I didn't become a Mullins student until after I had been a black sash for about 8 years. My stances are still high for their classes, but I fight well and give free legal advice from time to time, so they claim me.

[Judge Pen]

jp,

much respect for putting up vid of yourself. and you didn't blow your knee out this time:eek:

Amen to that! For those that didn't know, I blew my knee out doing the form in a demo on grass. The first jump and BAM. No more ACL.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow.

Hey, would you say that is more influenced by your first teacher or your current teacher?

[brothernumber9]

It's hard for me to tell from the video, but that "kwan" dao, looks more like a Ja Ma Dao (horse cutter) to me.

[Judge Pen]

Wow.

Hey, would you say that is more influenced by your first teacher or your current teacher?

Wow what? Go ahead and say whatever's on your mind. That's why I posted it.

As for your question, I learned the form from my first teacher and I still do it the same way he taught it. There's a few stylistic differences and a lot of athletic differences, but it is, form wise, the essentially the same.

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

The specs are found here: http://www.bladetown.com/Cold-Steel-Chinese-Halberd-p-1804.html

[MasterKiller]

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

Kwan Daos usually have a dorsal fin hook on the top of the blade as well.

[godzillakungfu]

Wow what? Go ahead and say whatever's on your mind. That's why I posted it.

As for your question, I learned the form from my first teacher and I still do it the same way he taught it. There's a few stylistic differences and a lot of athletic differences, but it is, form wise, the essentially the same.

B#9: Technically it is since it doesn't have a pike of spear on the other end (it only has a counter-weight) but I have an affinity to doing forms with functional weapons, so I use this when I do SD Kwan dao form.

The specs are found here: http://www.bladetown.com/Cold-Steel-Chinese-Halberd-p-1804.html
Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

[Judge Pen]

Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

Well they should be essentially the same no matter who the teacher is, but individual prefernces (and weaknesses) do start to creep in.

[lxtruong]

Wow, wasn't an insult. It was a remark about how similar this is to the West schools. You hear so much about the differences, by those who shall not be named, that it is interesting to see how close the forms really are.

I dunno....I saw a guy from one of the Idaho school do a 2nd degree brown bird form and I could barely tell that it was the same as ours. It was quite different. I think some forms are different, some not so much.

[godzillakungfu]

I dunno....I saw a guy from one of the Idaho school do a 2nd degree brown bird form and I could barely tell that it was the same as ours. It was quite different. I think some forms are different, some not so much.Nope it is differences in teaching styles. The forms aren't different just portrayed with different focus.

How long you have studied plays a huge role in how the form looks. I agree with what JP said.


JP: The reason I brought it up is the stories I've heard of large differences (who does what wrong blah blah blah) it is shocking to see large similarities.

[ninthdrunk]

I have to agree with lx here. There have been many times when people from out of state have come to visit, and there are some huge differences across camps. The stereotype has held true everytime I've been privy to demonstrations from other folks' schools. Typically, Texas and Kentucky are pretty close, Tennessee is a little different from that, and the few times I've seen stuff from "out west" it's been quite a bit different. I understand that it is arguably "stylistic differences," but after a point, those differences change the form. You throw a kick into se meng tao lian for stylistic differences, and I'm gonna argue it's not quite the same form anymore.

EDIT:
I will add however, that this stereotype is just that, and there are certainly times when they don't hold. In addition, there are times when I go back to texas and see people doing a form and I am just blown away by how much, uh, creative licenses have been taken. I've even had folks who don't know I've been around there a lot longer than they have ask me if I learned my material form another master! So, stereotypes are what they are because they hold true, MOST of the time. If they weren't stereotypes, we'd just call them truths.

[Judge Pen]

Nope it is differences in teaching styles. The forms aren't different just portrayed with different focus.

How long you have studied plays a huge role in how the form looks. I agree with what JP said.


JP: The reason I brought it up is the stories I've heard of large differences (who does what wrong blah blah blah) it is shocking to see large similarities.

I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.

[godzillakungfu]

I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.
Well they are much more stringent on the West. Not a dig at you more of a "rule with an iron hand" type of thing.

I know there are variations but to say a different form is wrong.

With in the West. Let me make that clear. I agree with what you are saying guys. Many of the differences are minor it is just strange when you are newer.

[godzillakungfu]

I have to agree with lx here. There have been many times when people from out of state have come to visit, and there are some huge differences across camps. The stereotype has held true everytime I've been privy to demonstrations from other folks' schools. Typically, Texas and Kentucky are pretty close, Tennessee is a little different from that, and the few times I've seen stuff from "out west" it's been quite a bit different. I understand that it is arguably "stylistic differences," but after a point, those differences change the form. You throw a kick into se meng tao lian for stylistic differences, and I'm gonna argue it's not quite the same form anymore..Ha HA. You've seen that too I see.

[Green Cloud]

Don't. That wasn't the point of me posting. I never said I was a forms person. I enjoy them, but I'm not good at them so any criticism of my peformance will be well received as its probably honest and good advice.

As for the form itself, I expect some to pick at it because its an SD form. So, since I have the expectation that people will hate it, then people only live up to my expectations or they exceed it. No worries there.

I'll still get the sparring match up where I fought well, made a couple of bad mistakes, and lost. It should so, though, that whatever SD teaches, it does teach you to handle yourslef as well as any TMA.


hello jp hope all is well, first off let me start by saying that I liked the form it does seem to be traditional. The weapon that you are using is called the Da do or dan Dao simply means long handle broad sword. That's just being knit picky many people genericaly call it the kwan dao.

Some of the transitions are a bit off and when turning into the gung bo you should always keep the foot flat to the floor and the heel too. You will loose points but are in a risky position to blow your knee out.

I didn't like in when the weapon was held at the end and swung around. This move is risky for 2 reasons, 1. it's a good way to loose it 2. Not a traditional move. I would just delete that from the form.

The transition behind the back was off and should be done differently, remeber it's a heavy weapon so you want to use centrifugal force and let the weapon do the work.

Other than that if the form was cleaned up a bit you got your self a pretty good form. The monk walking was interesting.:)

JP was that you or one of your students or was that youperforming the set I wasn't sure. Looking foward to seeing the fight vid thanks.

greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

hello jp hope all is well, first off let me start by saying that I liked the form it does seem to be traditional. The weapon that you are using is called the Da do or dan Dao simply means long handle broad sword. That's just being knit picky many people genericaly call it the kwan dao.

Some of the transitions are a bit off and when turning into the gung bo you should always keep the foot flat to the floor and the heel to. You will not on loose points but are in a riskyposition to blow your knee out.

I didn't like in when the weapon was held at the end and swung around. This move is risky for 2 reasons, 1. it's a good way to loose it 2. Not a traditional move. I would just delete that from the form.

The transition behind the back was off and should be done differently, remeber it's a heavy weapon so you want to use centrifugal force and let the weapon do the work.

Other than that if the form was cleaned up a bit you got your self a pretty good form. The monk walking was interesting.:)

JP was that you or one of your students performing the set. Looking foward to seeing the fight vid thanks.

greencloud.net

I don't teach my own students. I fill in for another teacher on Saturdays, but they're not my students. So, that was me. (I told you I'm not that great of a forms person).

We have talked about my stance issues. I'm really having so hip flexibility issues and it affects many of my stances (including the horse and bow stances). That's a limitation I'm working on (I stretch often, but I'm not gaining any ground). That criticism is well-deserved. I have great hamstring flexibility but sub-par hip flexibility. Even when I was 14 or 15 and stretching often, but hip flexibity was bad. Now that I'm in my 30s, I'm just hoping that it doesn't get worse.

The swinging move is in the form as it was taught to me. It's a good move to clear space. I've seen it done different ways. I embelished a bit on it in this tournament (got carried away and swung it twice around instead of once). But I can't just delete it from the form as its part of what was taught. To do so would to be doing my own stuff and not an SD form.

The behind the back transition is one I've learned a couple of different ways in my time. The best I've seen it was tossed from behind the back and then caught. I've also seen it spun around the same shoulder as the hand that catches it. Believe it or not, it does work well with the momentum the way I did it at the tournament. It rolls right along the back and allows for a quick transition into the hand. I actually bobbled it a bit.

I can make this form cleaner. I've done it better before, but that's the way I did it that day.

What's your take on the monk walk (as you put it)? I know of no real reaons for it other than stylistic.

[Green Cloud]

I'm not realy shure what the monk walking is about, I have seen it done with the monk spade. I think it's just a signiture Shaolin thing. I think it's done as a light stepping thing kinda looks like a master killer thing.

I didn't mean anything with the student comment, I just wasn't sure if it was you.

[Judge Pen]

I'm not realy shure what the monk walking is about, I have seen it done with the monk spade. I think it's just a signiture Shaolin thing. I think it's done as a light stepping thing kinda looks like a master killer thing.

I didn't mean anything with the student comment, I just wasn't sure if it was you.

:) No offense taken. I will always be a student. I have no desire or time to teach a class of my own. The only things that bug me are comparing SD to a cult and stupid crap like that.

Good to know about the walking...I never knew why it was there. I was told it was simulating stepping over objects on the battlefied. It was one of those moves that you did "just cause." At least that's what I was told years ago when I first learned this form. I never asked the question again, but you've inspired me.

[Green Cloud]

hey JP I was just asking cause you look a lot younger in your video than you do in your picture. I think that when you are doing your gung bo if you modify the movement then you won't have to wory about your hip.

Simply keep your entire foot flat and rooted into the floor, you can do this by shortening the stance a bit and just bend your back leg a bit. In CLF we call it a broken bow. This will keep you rooted while taking away the stress from the ankle and the hip while mantaining proper posturing.

Just a sugestion, I've judged many KF tornaments and that's one of the things they look for. They don't care if the back leg is bent as long as the stance is strong.

Also as far as deleting movements out of forms, that's okay to do if youre simply doing it for tournaments. Many KF schools leave out material in their forms on porpous, so others can't steal their good stuff.


greencloud.net

[Judge Pen]

hey JP I was just asking cause you look a lot younger in your video than you do in your picture. I think that when you are doing your gung bo if you modify the movement then you won't have to wory about your hip.

Simply keep your entire foot flat and rooted into the floor, you can do this by shortening the stance a bit and just bend your back leg a bit. In CLF we call it a broken bow. This will keep you rooted while taking away the stress from the ankle and the hip while mantaining proper posturing.

Just a sugestion, I've judged many KF tornaments and that's one of the things they look for. They don't care if the back leg is bent as long as the stance is strong.

Also as far as deleting movements out of forms, that's okay to do if youre simply doing it for tournaments. Many KF schools leave out material in their forms on porpous, so others can't steal their good stuff.


greencloud.net

Thanks. It's difficult to strike that balance between the stance the way its supposed to be and how you can physically do it, but what you say is wise.

It's funny after hearing all the criticism of SD to be concerned about someone stealing forms. But I wanted to do a form that was 100% original to SD so people could get a feel for what a typical SD form is like. So that's why I did that particular form. It's a form that every SD student must learn before the level of black.

Oh, the picture is actually George Clooney from "O Brother Where Art Thou?" But that's ok, a lot of people get us confused. :)

[Golden Tiger]

Kwan Daos usually have a dorsal fin hook on the top of the blade as well.

The form is designed to be used with a Kwan Dao. Some of the moves, especially in the spins, are both cuts (blade) and rips (hooked side). But as JP stated, most use what type they like best. The first ones we had were made by a local guy in a metal shop and weighed about 10 lbs. Good training aide but not very for demos. And if memory serves me correctly, M. Sin used a 9 ring long knife when he taught the form. So to each their own.


I've seen some forms that were esentially the same and I've seen marked differences. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to why. I'm glad that this form seems to be fairly universal, but even in my school I do it a little differently than my teachers.


Had a huge comment to post on this but never mind. I think it has been covered.

[Judge Pen]

I also have a home-made kwan dao that is made of street-sign aluminum of all things. It's bigger but lighter than my functional halberd. I just like the feel and thought of a "live" and functional weapon. They are hard to find in the CMA. That's why I'm making my own spear.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41494

[ninthdrunk]

Master schaefer had some guy in Wimberley make a couple of kwan taos way back when. I was "lucky" enough to get the second one. **** thing weighs like 27 pounds or something...not exactly sure, never weighed it. Kinda don't want to, cause then I might just get slower! Whatever it weighs, it's a beast. But, Master Schaefer's always had it in his head that I'd like heavier weapons....not willing to dissapoint him :p

[brothernumber9]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..

[godzillakungfu]

Master schaefer had some guy in Wimberley make a couple of kwan taos way back when. I was "lucky" enough to get the second one. **** thing weighs like 27 pounds or something...not exactly sure, never weighed it. Kinda don't want to, cause then I might just get slower! Whatever it weighs, it's a beast. But, Master Schaefer's always had it in his head that I'd like heavier weapons....not willing to dissapoint him :p
We had some 20lbs Daos that we purchased years ago. Heavy as hell sucked during tests.

[Crushing Fist]

We use Kwan Daos down here in Atlanta, although one year the supplier ran out and a few people got stuck using Pu Daos (poor B@stards) and I've seen someone use the 9 ring knife too. I've also see something called a "southern kwan dao" which is kind of like a smaller version of the normal one.

I think certain moves in this form are meant for the kwan dao specifically, but it translates pretty well into any halberd type weapon.

It is such a different form with a combat steel Kwan Dao too. A few guys here got those, and I don't know how much they weigh, but they definitely spin differently.


As for the big swing, why do you say its not traditional? It may not be, I don't know...
but it is central to this form IMO.

For one thing its the only move that I was told a fancy name for

"The Cut of 1000 Heads"

with a name like that I'm not about to drop it.

Plus its one of the only times in the form that the weapon changes range and I've always thought it would be a particularly gruesome move.

Has anyone heard the story about General Kwan holding a bridge by himself as wave after wave of infantry charged him only to be cut down?

Don't know if its historical, but I imagine him doing some kind of swing like this to hold them back and kill/maim several people at once.

my favorite move in the form is the triple jump/spin followed by the reverse jump/spin. just because its fun. its one move that the heavier the kwan dao is the better it works... the thing just pulls you around with it.

the around the back move I like too. First because its the other range change and second because its another good decapitation :D

I do the catch so that the blade comes up past my right shoulder and I kind of side-hand strike it up at the gripping point and grab on. When I do it right the weapon doesn't stop moving and it flows nicely.


I like to picture the cross cut/side-hand sequences in this form as cutting some in half horizontally then again vertically then knocking the pieces apart before they fall :D


realistic? no but its a fun picture.

I've never heard the term "monk walking" before but I like it.

I think of stepping over the piles of bodies and severed limbs that were just created



you could also be sneaking up on someone...

Be vewy vewy qwiet... I'm hunting wabbits



with a kwan dao

[BM2]

Jp
I gave away your copy that I made of the DVD:rolleyes: When time permits I'll make another and mail it to you.
Was looking on my pc for a better pic but couldn't find it. The only weapons that are not real are the hook swords, the others are antiques. This pic is about 5 years ago and I have some better weapons now. Look at the size difference of the Kwan daos, cresent moon knife, green dragon spring knife or the other different names for the same weapon. The top version is about 7lbs.

[Judge Pen]

Nice. Where did you get the hooks, btw. They look like mine.

I like the old spearheads too. Good stuff.

I know what the legends say about the wieght of General Kwan's Dao, but reall, how realistic is it to have a weapon that heavy? It seems that even for a heavy halberd the 7 to 8 lbs is pushing it as far as maximum effective weight.

[Green Cloud]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..


Ja ma ao is the horse leg cuuter much shorter with a ring at the end of the handle

[Green Cloud]

perhaps those walking steps could be attributed to something as simple as practice space, when the form was taught. The form and the weapon seem to take up a lot of space so it the practice area was small, the instructor may have just walked to an area with more room.

A Kwan dao is a Kwan dao and a pu dao (ja ma dao) is a pu dao, a naginata is a naginata. They are all blades at the end of a staff but they are not the same and do not have the same overall functionality. The different weights, lengths, and thickness of the blades, as well as metal, accounts for that..


Ja ma dao is the horse leg cutter much shorter with a ring at the end of the handle

[BM2]

Got the hooks off ebay. They are modern although it was listed as being antiques. I do have a single hook that is an antique and at least this one does not have the hook sharpened on the side facing your fingers. I think all modern ones inculding the ones in the photo, have for some reason that side sharp as well. I mean really, why would you want to slice your own fingers?
I found a close up of the guard on the Kwan do.

[Green Cloud]

buykungfu.com has very good kwan daos for like 40 bucks.

[Green Cloud]

Sorry my bad, I'ts about $175 retail, unless you got a tax ID # than it's half that price. None the less I only buy from these guys ask for Nelson.


greencloud.net

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Sorry my bad, I'ts about $175 retail, unless you got a tax ID # than it's half that price. None the less I only buy from these guys ask for Nelson.


greencloud.net

Guy...

using this site to sell stuff elsewhere that can be purchased through this site is, well, a little underhanded.

just saying. mamart has kwan daos from light practice display models, wushu models to why the hell is this so heavy! models. The pricing is reasonable. Ask for Margie, tell her we all sent you.

http://www.martialartsmart.com