Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 7

chud

12-11-2005, 06:43 PM

Thought that I would relate something I watched lastnight that even with all the doubt surrounding SD, made me feel pretty good about SD and M. Sin.

A friend sent me a tape of a Tai Chi series shown on some station out of Canada featuring GM. Shou-Yu Liang (looked him up, seems to be a big dog from what I can tell). He was teaching Yang 24 and doing some Chi Gong. The form looked just like what I learned but that wasn't the interesting part. The Chi Gong that he was explaining was what did it. As he did the exercise, he also called out the points and meridians that needed to be hit and the visualization of doing so. The interesting part (to me anyway) was that everything he mentioned, I had learned about 20 years or so ago from SD and M. ST. Same names, same flow, same everything. Our exercises might have been called something different (I didn't take the time to check my old notes) but every exercise he did, I was able to call out the path and point 2 steps ahead of him.

To most, this story will mean nothing more than me trying to make it to post 1500, but to me, it really meant a lot. Regardless of my relentless defense of SD, I too from time to time wonder about SD. Even the most confident person will have doubts if all they ever hear is negative comments. But after watching that show and seeing that what this person was teaching was exactly what I had learned a long long time ago (with a lot more detail ;) , I think it will be enough for me to keep up the fight for another 100 pages.

So, in my ever so humble opinion, the question posed for this thread was once again answered....and the answer was a very loud YES:D

The use of the Yang 24 was the reason I left Shaolin Do. The Yang 24 is a modern invention and the fact that it is endorsed by the PRC communist gov't taints it IMO. Don't get me wrong Golden Tiger, I'm glad you found validation in it. And I think SD is an effective style, I've seen some SD black belts who were good martial artists. But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.

htowndragon

12-12-2005, 04:46 AM

wuts the post count on this thread now?

Judge Pen

12-12-2005, 01:05 PM

The use of the Yang 24 was the reason I left Shaolin Do. The Yang 24 is a modern invention and the fact that it is endorsed by the PRC communist gov't taints it IMO. Don't get me wrong Golden Tiger, I'm glad you found validation in it. And I think SD is an effective style, I've seen some SD black belts who were good martial artists. But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.

Really? I disagree about the martial application. It is a modern form. Master Sin told everyone that he was teaching this since it was the most prevalent form of tai chi out there and we should have it. That was upfront. If you will leave a system because they teach tai chi 24 then you have ruled out many TCMA schools that also teach some tai chi on the side. So what have you been studying since you left SD?

Golden Tiger

12-12-2005, 03:08 PM

But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.

What makes you think this? Having practiced 24 for a number of years, I have found many applications within the form (well, as much as can be derived from Tai Chi anyway). I must admit I thought that I had heard all the reason there were for people leaving SD but because they taught a form is a new one. Have to make a note of it for sure.

kwaichang

12-12-2005, 08:11 PM

Gee Onyomi,
After only 3 years you are a know all and tell all You havent trained long enough to make any valid statement about the legitamacy of any Martial Art let alone SD. Lets ask those who have trained greater than 15 years and have seen or experienced TCMA prior to the Americanization of the Martial arts for money. KC:D

Golden Tiger

12-12-2005, 09:35 PM

Gee Onyomi,
After only 3 years you are a know all and tell all You havent trained long enough to make any valid statement about the legitamacy of any Martial Art let alone SD. KC:D

That is a good point, one that I have made over at MAP where onyomi resides most of the time. Here you have a boy that is so sure of himself after only being interested in the MA's for 3 years and only being out of diapers for 24 where as some of us have been training for close to 30.

I remember when I was but a wee lad, I used to tell my dad that he was full of it and my way was the best. I didn't realized how silly I was until I got a little older....perhaps its time for some others to do the same.

David Jamieson

12-12-2005, 11:32 PM

The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.

It was invented a relatively short time ago for the purpose of maintaining the cultural practice of martial art without the people developing real martial ability that could be used to counter any police or governmet concern.

This doesn't make it a good practice, it's ok and will work the whole body, all the joints, the breathing and help you maintain your limber.

It is the simplest to learn and most wide spread form of tai chi in the world.
To make it combat effective would mean going back to the source short and long forms and finding it in those.

As a stand alone martial art, it is not effective to that end without prior knowledge of the postures and their transitions and how to use them martially.

Shou Yu Liang teaches it because he offers instruction on a tv show. You cannot teach the more in depth tai chi practice via this medium with any real efficacy for the players.

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

To this point, they have not done so outside of their own tournaments or the face tournaments we've all come to know and feel like puking from. lol

kwaichang

12-12-2005, 11:59 PM

Does this mean fighting to you? The history or truth of an art cannot be proven by winning fights. If this is what you mean. How can one prove that a technique used to defeat an opponent is derived from a single form of combat ?? You cant. As I see it there are many who hope to prove or disprove that SD is from or not from the Shaolin Temples. Since this cant be proven or not then the merit of the art is based upon what it can do for one practicing it. Since there are so many practicing actively, and those who are not currently practicing it , but have, then the viability of the art of SD is therefore proven. If a person considered a good fighter took SD would that make SD a "true" art worth taking ?? Again as I have read and researched I can say that SD is a true TCMA and should be treated as such. If GMT said it wasnt then that would be very interesting as the Forms and History I have learned has been quite awsome to say the least. KC

lxtruong

12-13-2005, 12:34 AM

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

At the end of the day, Shaolin-Do will never be "TCMA"-enough for detractors. Even if some Shaolin-Do practitioner went on the world's greatest undefeated streak, would that make it "valid" in your eyes?

To this point, they have not done so outside of their own tournaments or the face tournaments we've all come to know and feel like puking from. lol

Once upon a time I thought about going up to Taji Legacy to see what it was all about and maybe compete. But then I read the rule that people who wear gis aren't allowed to play in that sandbox.

David Jamieson

12-13-2005, 02:01 AM

guys from all kinds of martial backgrounds come into and play in the major venues.

there is san da to compete in, all sorts of open nhb stuff in the states, ufc, k1, k2, k3 etc etc etc.

If you are gonna call yourself a "fighting" art, then make it so at some point I would say. I suggest these things for the SD group because of the many many detractors they have and the only to damaging statements that teh founder himself makes and tells his students is gospel.

Thé has the same level of legitimacy as a system leader as simon olaf from temple kungfu.

if you play in any of the sportive combative venues for striking or general martial arts, all you haveto do is learn the rules and train for that venue. If the kungfu is solid, then that will show.

to many "martial artists" willing to quickly back out of putting up or shutting up only does those arts a disservice.

you see all sorts of other shaoliners or family based in shaolin styles fighting in the sportive combative venues all the time and they're happy to do it. Why not SD? Or for that matter, a few other martial arts that not being germane to the topic will remain unnamed. :p

David Jamieson

12-13-2005, 02:02 AM

bt and fwiw, 24 style tai chi is NOT Shaolin. :p

kwaichang

12-13-2005, 03:29 AM

To Quote a movie " My skills are not there to impress you" As was said even if we the SD people enter a No Holds Barred match and win it will not change what was said or is being said. However I will tell you that when I was in Austin Texas at the SD school one or two of our people did do what you suggested and it did not help to change anyones opinion of the people or the art of SD. If the SD people enter open tourneys as I have in the past we all know they are political. I am not in it for the sport as you guys are I have more respect for my fellow man than to beat the S//T out of someone to prove nothing. However attack my family and I will change my way of thinking and will hurt somebody "real bad" or die trying. KC:)

chud

12-13-2005, 06:13 AM

Really? I disagree about the martial application. It is a modern form. Master Sin told everyone that he was teaching this since it was the most prevalent form of tai chi out there and we should have it. That was upfront.

True, it is indeed the most prevalent form of Tai Chi today. But, as David Jamieson said on page 101 of this thread: The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.

This is exactly what I have heard over and over again about the Yang24 form, and my personal experience has reflected it. When I was studying the Yang 24 previously I picked it up easily, to the point where my instructor even commented about how fast I was progressing. But since I started studying more traditional Yang style I am not able to learn as fast, and it is because there is a lot MORE to learn; my current studies in traditional Yang style have made me realize that the Yang24 which I studied previously was very very watered down. Also, the fact that the Yang24 is endorsed by the Chinese gov't should tell you that this form has indeed had much of the martial application removed. Remember, the Chinese are now practicing Wushu (glorified acrobatics) and have spent many years supressing traditional martial arts.

If you will leave a system because they teach tai chi 24 then you have ruled out many TCMA schools that also teach some tai chi on the side.
Absolutely! :)

chud

12-13-2005, 06:27 AM

Having practiced 24 for a number of years, I have found many applications within the form

There are some, but the primary emphasis in the Yang24 is on health.

(well, as much as can be derived from Tai Chi anyway).

Traditional Tai Chi is ALL ABOUT martial application.

I must admit I thought that I had heard all the reason there were for people leaving SD but because they taught a form is a new one. Have to make a note of it for sure.

I had no problem with the people in my local ShaolinDo school. They were nice people and it seemed like a well run school. I just felt called to something else.

Judge Pen

12-13-2005, 01:33 PM

bt and fwiw, 24 style tai chi is NOT Shaolin. :p

We know. GM The' never said that it was. As far as going back to the original forms to derive application, that is done. Since many of the same postures are repeated in our "64 step" tai chi form then those applications have been practiced for years prior to 24 being introduced into SD.

DJ, I can also see your point about fighting out of SD may be a way to quell some detractors; however, I don't think it is valid. For all I know there a young guys that do this, but the way SD is taught in most places it is more family oriented like many schools. Even if some guys that have trailed only in SD do well in one of the full-contact venues there will be people that say SD is obviously a good form of kempo or karate so it would do little to legitimize it as TCMA.

Golden Tiger

12-13-2005, 03:36 PM

The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.

Single whip is single whip...

If you are gonna call yourself a "fighting" art, then make it so at some point I would say.

Well, back in my younger years, I traveled around and entered all the competitions that were close and even a few toughman competitions. Worked my a$$ off training, fought those with MA backgrounds and quiet a few good old boys and what do I have to show for it? A funny looking nose, a few cracked ribs and a couple of trophies. Not much of a return on my investment in my opinion.

As for validation, does that mean that because I beat a CLF guy but was whooped by a country boy that SD is better than CLF but not as good as Redneck Fu?

Traditional Tai Chi is ALL ABOUT martial application.

I would have to disagree with you on that. If you only train TC for the fighting aspect, then you are leaving out the best part. Or perhaps I misunderstood your meaning.

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

Outrageous? Perhaps.....Erroneous? Doubtful.

So tell me David, if you and I went to the "mat" and I either won (by a mutually agreed standard) or at the very least kept up with you, would you then become a champion of SD and all its glory?

Or perhaps I taught you a form of ours, and through my instruction, you gained a new skill set that was useful, would you then be convinced?

I guess what I am wondering is what it would take to actually convince you all that it is a valid art? Some have changed the uniforms to look more TCMA and that didn't do it. Some were challenged and did pretty well (still no vid!!!) and that didn't do it.

Its hard to please all the people all the time so I am just wondering what it would actually take(a happy compromise)?

BM2

12-13-2005, 07:39 PM

As in any large group of martial arts there are some talanted,devoted people, SD is no different. I believe that the problems with the TCMA community is not with SD competing.
Most do SD as a hobby, not to fight or compete. I did muy thai for 6 months before falling out with the instructor. I started bjj last year. They are geared for fighting and class is very much different than a SD school where learning forms is the main part of class. A fighting school spends at least half the time fighting.
Like GT, my friends and I competed in the point fighting tournaments in the '80s against Karate and TKD schools. What I learned was everyone was competive with each other. One of my classmates entered in a "Badesst Man in Town" tournament. It was boxers, kickboxers etc. and he finished in the last 4 out of 16 fighters two years in a row. No weight brackets.
I do think that forms competion would be different and I would like to see some people work up Hua or one of the other forms and compete. And for the no gi rule making people feel unwanted, you can put on a Chinese uniform.

Judge Pen

12-13-2005, 08:44 PM

And for the no gi rule making people feel unwanted, you can put on a Chinese uniform.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Blasphemy! :D

Seriously, I like the Chinese style uniforms, but lxtroung has gone on record as saying that he will never wear one. I think that was during the early debate about our school wearing frog-button tops.

I wish I could do hua the way it was supposed to look. I'm trying to figure out what form to do for Oso's tournament in February. I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?

Oh, David, yes that's an open CMA tournament that I'm going to compete to support a friend and his sponsored tournament. I probably won't win (honestly, my forms are not my best suit) but I'm looking forward to it. Am I more CMA now?

lxtruong

12-13-2005, 09:17 PM

:eek: :eek: :eek: Blasphemy! :D

Seriously, I like the Chinese style uniforms, but lxtroung has gone on record as saying that he will never wear one. I think that was during the early debate about our school wearing frog-button tops.

I can't say I care enough to

1. drive several hours
2. pay $$ for tournament entry fee
3. pay even more $$ for a uniform
4. essentially misrepresent myself

For what? A cheap trophy? I'll pass. If it were just the first two, maybe.

I wish I could do hua the way it was supposed to look. I'm trying to figure out what form to do for Oso's tournament in February. I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?

I was working on 5 animal fist last night. God that form is long. Do 4th spear, it's easier. Or do Kwan Dao, but you're a wuss if you do it with anything less than a 13 lb Kwan Dao (not like I can really swing that thing around, but who cares about that? :) )

Golden Tiger

12-13-2005, 10:00 PM

I can't say I care enough to

1. drive several hours
2. pay $$ for tournament entry fee
3. pay even more $$ for a uniform
4. essentially misrepresent myself

For what? A cheap trophy? I'll pass. If it were just the first two, maybe.

If nothing else, the fellow sticks to his guns.

I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?

5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out. Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely. Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) . Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

lxtruong

12-13-2005, 11:09 PM

If nothing else, the fellow sticks to his guns.

5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out. Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely. Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) . Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

Long fist short form is a pretty cool kata, has some flashy moves which are good for competition, and can be worked up in about 2 weeks. That's a good one.

Judge Pen

12-14-2005, 12:28 AM

5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out.

Actually I end stronger than I start. Making the tam tui really look good is harder for me, but all that is on my weaker leg. If I can nail that first part, the rest of the form is gravy.

Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely.

I have enough of a flexibility issue to shy away from the Huas for a representation of our material anyway. The low stances are doable, but I don't flow through them the way I would like. I don't have the little long fist form.

Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) .

I've thought about it, but I think I'm a bit better at 5AF minus the first part.

Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

I don't have 2nd level broadsword. I have double hook sword, but honestly, I'm not a fan of that form. I could do Kwan Dao in my sleep.

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 12:45 AM

I guess what I am wondering is what it would take to actually convince you all that it is a valid art?

call it what it is, ie: the collected stuff of sin kwan thé through various means. predominated by Kempo karate.

stop claiming that it is the 'only' true shaolin, it is not.

stop with the spurious claims of ownership and all the other stuff.

I personally think it can still be redeemed in this matter, but it is up to someone to step forward and wash away all the freaking nonsense that has been spewed out about it.

Lies simply will not do and where one doesn't know, one should simply say "i don't know".

Having said that, SKT and his organization are not the only ones guilty of being bull.sh.itt.ers

kwaichang

12-15-2005, 03:47 AM

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 02:10 PM

OK So you have seen traditional martial arts from China , when was that and who was it ? How do we know that what you have seen is real either. Or what you do is real ? I have seen American and Chinese Kempo and of what I have seen SD is not it. So as we have said so many times stop your opinion and Give facts. BTW just because what you have seen looks similar to what we do does not make what we do what you have seen. So in a nut shell either put up your factual data or shut up, you can no more prove what SD is or isnt so since many train in it many of whom have done research of the style I choose to believe SD is SHAOLIN !!! THis isnt Family court where one is guilty until proven innocent. It is Real SHAOLIN until you guys prove otherwise KC:mad:

lol.

please observe this post and understand with further depth why cult like practices are a problem when involving people who don't have a will or mind of there own that is strong enough to at the very least call a spade a spade.

whatever, you karate guys may believe what you like.

but becauise you say it, doesn't make it so.

get over it and enjoy your fantasy.

I guess it's hard when you invest all that time sweat and energy into something only to have a bunch of d1cks like me tell you you have wasted your time and your leader is a lier.

Kinda like how marines who are republican must feel at times. :p

kwaichang

12-15-2005, 03:17 PM

I do not care what you "****s" say I respect your opinion as an opinion and that is all. We all know opinions are like A H everyone has one. BUT when someone expresses their opinion and is asked for proof and gives none discredits the opinion already given. As for a cult any time you are in an organization where one person is a leader could be considered a cult. I am not told what to think and I feel you and others saying we are in a cult is an insult to those of us who do have a brain and use it. So say what you like but all I ask is back it up with data KC

Golden Tiger

12-15-2005, 03:33 PM

Such lovely postings and so close to Christmas even....ahhh the holidays:)

only to have a bunch of d1cks like me tell you you have wasted your time and your leader is a lier.

Truer words have never been spoken..and it is "liar" just so you know.

call it what it is, ie: the collected stuff of sin kwan thé through various means. predominated by Kempo karate.

I think that is always what it has been called. Sin The Karate Club, Sin The Shaolin-Do, etc. Only some of the material taught is said to have come out of the Shaolin system. As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).

stop claiming that it is the 'only' true shaolin, it is not.

I would have to agree with KC on this one. How do YOU know its not? Would you consider what is being taught at the temple today " true shaolin"? Many would disagree with that for sure. But then again, the stuff is being taught there so by definition it is "true shaolin" but most would claim its "PRC approved wushu". I think all would agree that it is certianly different than what was being taught in the 1800 and early 1900's. But since we don't have any vid's, it is hard to know for sure.

stop with the spurious claims of ownership and all the other stuff.

Again, they are not spurious claims because it is his system and for all practical matters, he does own it. By your own claims, GMST collected the forms, designed a system around them and therefore owns it.

I personally think it can still be redeemed in this matter, but it is up to someone to step forward and wash away all the freaking nonsense that has been spewed out about it.

Lies simply will not do and where one doesn't know, one should simply say "i don't know".

Thank you for your optimism and thats what a few of us are trying to do.

please observe this post and understand with further depth why cult like practices are a problem when involving people who don't have a will or mind of there own that is strong enough to at the very least call a spade a spade.

I love it when the "cult" card is played. And as for calling a spade a spade, I think you helped us with that....see first quote:D

whatever, you karate guys may believe what you like.

You say this like it is an insult. I have no problem being called a karate guy at all. I think the big problem for you is having a karate guy (like me)that can take your kung fu forms (that Black Tiger form on vid perhaps) and be able make corrections (and trust me, there would be plenty to choose from) and show you things about it that you only have had wet kung fu dreams about.

Kinda like how marines who are republican must feel at times.

I think this comment speaks volumes about you...nuff said

BM2

12-15-2005, 03:35 PM

DJ,
FWIW, I have never heard GM Sin state most of the things you have accused him of saying, however some of his students have. I don't agree with it either but anyone can put what they want on their websites even if it's not accurate or polite.
I understand why you hold your beliefs, if all I had to base SD on was what I saw on the web, I would too.
I also hold to be true that if you were to take a class from GM Sin your opinion of him and SD would change. The forms are mostly the same as others e.g. Hua, Long Fist although most do it with too much emphiss on power IMHO.

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 04:52 PM

Golden Tiger- I can appreciate that you can only take it down to the level of atacking me personally. This has a lot to do with not being able to defend that which is indefensable.

thanks for the spelling correction by the way. The grammar and spelling on the internet really is the problem, never mind the ideas being put forth.

BM2- There really is a lot of stuff about SD on the net. There used to be reems of clips showing their "shaolin forms". They also claim to teach complete styles within there doings such as Hung Ga and so on. Have you seen the demonstrations of these stes by their junior masters? I have, they are a couple of things, but definitely not even closely related to the southern shaolin.

revisionism of what was said because it has been redacted due to the fact that it was called onto teh carpet does not wash away the fact that spurious and ridiculous claims have been made by sin the and his students and people he's certified to teach his style.

Let's look at southern shaolin for a second. Sin Thé collected monies from his schools and purchased a stone at the new tourista temple the prc recently built and then made the spurious claim that the stone was awarded to him at the temple as opposed to the truth that he purchased it and that in fact, anyone can purchase a stone at the temple and have it set in as prominent a place as money will buy.

Let's look at the styles of nan sil lum such as Choy li Fut, Hung Ga or wing chun, to just indicate a few. There is nothing in the SD versions of forms they've tried to co-opt from these styles that resembles the principles or actual forms themselves. A beautiful example is the butchering of the tiger/crane form I've seen from sd in more than one iteration. It is sad and wholly incorrect.

How about the swallow form the had or rather "bird" It is practically straight outta shotokan karate and yet it is given the attributes of chinese martial arts in the descrioption of the demonstration.

Anyway, I'm sure that anyone who has invested all that time money and effort into sd would be very unhappy to know that what they have is not exactly what one could call shaolin proper.

You know, ed parker used to say kempo was shaolin chuan fa, it wasn't, it was an odd blend of things that was created to fill a void of demand. Was some of it effective? Sure, there's hundreds of brands of water pistols after all, just like there's hundreds of brands of kungfu.

Good chinese martial arts instruction is pretty hard to come by I have discovered, and pretty near impossible to get out of the sd curriculum as they have so ubiqitously shown across publications on the internet, in the press etc etc.

But you believers keep believing! Enjoy your patches and please post back when you have some incredible benefits of your practice to show or tell us about.

Golden Tiger

12-15-2005, 05:59 PM

Golden Tiger- I can appreciate that you can only take it down to the level of atacking me personally. This has a lot to do with not being able to defend that which is indefensable.

As far as I know, I haven't attacked you personally David. And if you feel that I did, please point it out and I will retract it. I did make a slight joke about the head band in the staff form but I think when you first posted it you also poked fun at it.

Let's look at southern shaolin for a second. Sin Thé collected monies from his schools and purchased a stone at the new tourista temple the prc recently built and then made the spurious claim that the stone was awarded to him at the temple as opposed to the truth that he purchased it and that in fact, anyone can purchase a stone at the temple and have it set in as prominent a place as money will buy.

David, you need to re-read the section in this thread concerning the steele. You are simply WRONG. He did not collect anything. His students paid for the marker, not him nor did he ever ask them to. He never claimed that it was awarded (although some web versions may claim this) but that he was honored by it and by having a meeting when the then ailing Abbot.

So see, in just that one assertion, you have made two statements, based only on what you have read here, that are WRONG.

MasterKiller

12-15-2005, 06:18 PM

David, you need to re-read the section in this thread concerning the steele. You are simply WRONG. He did not collect anything. His students paid for the marker, not him nor did he ever ask them to. He never claimed that it was awarded (although some web versions may claim this) but that he was honored by it and by having a meeting when the then ailing Abbot.

Well, to be fair, someone (probably the Soards) is/was telling students that the Steele was a gift. Heck, some people even think there is a statue of Sin at Shaolin instead of a steele. So, somewhere there is a source of willful disinformation that is intentionally inflating his relationship to Shaolin. I doubt it's Sin. But at the same time, I don't see him out there trying to rectify the information, either.

sean_stonehart

12-15-2005, 06:36 PM

Golden Tiger

12-15-2005, 07:22 PM

The Soards bought the steles at Henan & Fujian and spin the story the "temple honored him...". It wasn't stopped & I'm not sure it could've been by the time it happened. I'm sure the temple also "honored" all of the Taekwon Do schools, Karate schools & other MA schools that put steles in that courtyard as well. :eek:

I may be wrong and I am sure not going to spend the time sifting thru all the posts but I do believe that Gene said that it was only one of 10 or so in that area and that it was not common for the abbot (especially that one with his illness)to come out and make an appearance.

But anyway, I was just pointing out to David that he was basing his story on what he thought to be good info and he was wrong. He (and most others) have a bad problem doing that. They have absolutely no first person experience on a subject that they try to sound like an expert in.

On the other hand, Sean and even BM2 have related some problems they have with SD and thats fine. They can make an informed decision where as people like David can not.

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 07:27 PM

As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).

They also resemble some of the Tam Tui and Lohan that I've come across so go figure.

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 07:32 PM

Well, to be fair, someone (probably the Soards) is/was telling students that the Steele was a gift. Heck, some people even think there is a statue of Sin at Shaolin instead of a steele. So, somewhere there is a source of willful disinformation that is intentionally inflating his relationship to Shaolin. I doubt it's Sin. But at the same time, I don't see him out there trying to rectify the information, either.

Well, to be fair, I have never heard Sin The' trumpet himself up to be any great grand googely gook master. I've never heard him comment on the marker. I don't think he cares what people say about him on the internet or among his own schools accurate or not.

Perhaps he is comfortable in his own abilities and is just happy to let everyone else talk about whatever they want.

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 07:46 PM

On the other hand, Sean and even BM2 have related some problems they have with SD and thats fine. They can make an informed decision where as people like David can not.

I have no problem with SD as a system. I have a problem with the way it is taught by some and the effort that is given. It's a problem when you have too many forms, but that's up to the individual.

I also think that teacher worship (akin to 'my dad can beat up your dad'--not the cult mentality which I don't see in SD) and marketing got out of hand and now the bell cannot be unrung, but that doesn't affect the way that I punch or kick.

MasterKiller

12-15-2005, 08:10 PM

I think that is always what it has been called. Sin The Karate Club, Sin The Shaolin-Do, etc. Only some of the material taught is said to have come out of the Shaolin system. As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).

According to Page 6 of this article

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/historyofshaolinikfnov1987.pdf

linked to from this website

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/resources.html

Sin The' has mastered (his words, not mine) at least 222 Honan Shaolin forms. I guess if you compare that to 900 or so possible forms, "some" is the proper word to use. Still seems like an awful lot of pure Shaolin, though. ;)

kwaichang

12-15-2005, 08:18 PM

The straight punch in SD is somewhat similar to Shoto kan the end. The Bird form I learned is no where similar to Hangetsu or Gankaku both Shoto Kan forms, do not speak of what you dont know. I trained with and under Sensei Nishiyama of the JKA Shoto Kan there is not anything that even remotely resembles Shoto Kan even the source of punching power is different, this statement just proves your ignorance of what SD is. KC:D

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 08:25 PM

Actually it's the words of the author and I assume you are referring to the table "Origins of some of the material mastered by Grandmaster Sin Kwan The."

The Willow Sword

12-15-2005, 09:06 PM

Simple in that we all know what SD is and what it ISNT. Yet therein lies the complications because we all have different opinions and experiences with SD.

The rest of the TCMA world recognizes SD for what it is. You can take as many trips to China as you want and be "validated" by the people there who are interested in tourist dollars and helping you guys to live out your fantasies, but still there is a underlying REALITY that remains and believe me, it is NOT the reality you faithfull SD followers believe to be so. I can ASSURE YOU OF THAT.

but should it really matter what the detractors ,and the once faithfull followers who opened their eyes, say and write? It really shouldnt should it?

I mean when you really break all this down and analyze it what you get is people trying so hard to convince themselves and validate themselves that what they are doing "IS" the "REAL" thing and the "ONLY" thing worth doing.
i am reminded of fundamentlaist christians who believe so much what they are into that they blind themselves to all other ways, they condemn other ways and paths,either vocally or silently in thier own minds, they become Radical.
i have seen this all too much within the organization with which i was once faithful to.
you have a kind of silent arrogance that permeates everything you do and you know,that's the world of politics and ego in the martial arts, especially in this country, America, where capitolism and the face value is taken and consumed like one who is an addict, just wanting that quick fix and wanting more and more and more.
Thats what the system seems to provide. But hey its not just with SD you see this in a lot of dojos and kwoons in this country trying to pass themselves off as something REAL and marketing themselves according to what is "IN".
Since there seems to be more of am emphasis on attaining more and more instead of really LEARNING what it is you have, what you get in the final analysis is a bunch of garbage and routines that only seek to lead you to yet another chinese box of more chinese boxes. OR it could be that old capitolistic value mindset that we all have that says that we have to always update and attain new things. Like the auto industry that constantly puts out the new thing and gets people hooked on getting rid of last years model(which is still fully functional and reliable) for this years model.
i site these examples to prove a point in that SD has marketed themselves VERY well and is very successful in the areas they have chosen to set up. Sin The' has made quite the name for himself and in a way i can respect that, i really can.
However, like the starbucks corporation who seeks to permeate everything like a virus and choke out the local mom and pop cafes, SD seeks to choke out the "traditionalists" with their rhetoric and borrow and b@st@rdize every aspect of the oriental arts by claiming to be something that they clearly are not. But hey coffee is coffee right? just like kung fu is kung fu and karate is karate and so on and so forth?
If anything i have learned at SD i have learned that it really doesnt pay to attach yourself to something that is constantly revolving around itself and changing its tune and its form structure and mentality so much that you sit there wondering where the hell you are and where you stand within it.

you know what i say? i say give guys like KC and golden tiger and others in the SD realm a break, a clean break. If what you know to be true in your mind's eye is not theirs, then dont bother with what they believe to be true. we all post our opinions and flame and troll and it always keeps coming back around to the same ole same ole.
So let them live in the realm they have chosen to live in, just as we choose to live in the reality we have created for ourselves. i hope the movie does get made, its a great story and a creative work of fiction and would be an entertaining film.

There is an old Zen saying about the west " A mile wide and an inch deep"

as always and forever,,TWS.

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 09:11 PM

lol at shifting the focus to me.

whatever guys.

one can look at two apples and readily tell which one is ripe and which one is not.

If you can't, then you don't know apples.

I've been eating apples for a long time.
But I certainly don't make any high claims about the martial arts I practice.

One can pay homage to the roots of shaolin kungfu without making claim that only their garden is from those roots and thereby making an attempt at ostracizing others that clearly come from the same tree.

The needs to do some housecleaning in that regards if it all comes down to blame the pions lol. The has the final say, it's his organization and if he doesn't have control of the information that comes out of his organization, then his organization is not much of one.

Anyway, if anyone wants to speak to the legit concerns as opposed to deflecting focus due to rage and contempt or to blame someone else in the organization etc etc, then by all means, we're obviously better than 1500 posts later prepared to listen to some of the real deal. lol

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 10:13 PM

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

Why should he care?

David Jamieson

12-15-2005, 10:53 PM

Why should he care?

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Judge Pen

12-15-2005, 11:37 PM

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Only if you thought the other ships were a threat.

Obvioulsy he doesn't expect or need your, or anyone else that posts on an online community's, approval to be secure in what he does.

lxtruong

12-16-2005, 01:02 AM

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Actually perhaps a more apt. metaphor would be if you were the owner of a fleet of ships, and someone out there was spreading a rumor in one particular bar that your fleet was not oceanworthy.

However, let's be honest the vast majority of consumers either 1. don't know about this debate, 2. don't care.

So to go back to this metaphor, sure people are badmouthing the fleet in this one pub, but suppose there were a large number of pubs which did not contain this discussion. And besides, not all prospective clients even GO to pubs. Who's going to care?

kwaichang

12-16-2005, 04:48 AM

OK GUYS I GUESS YOU HAVE ABOUT SAID IT ALL. I JUST WISH I HAD THE TIME WASTED BY US ALL TO TRAIN EVEN MORE IN SD. BUT ALAS I DO NOT AND I TOO HAVE CAST MY PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. YOU ALL SAY THAT SD IS NOT THE REAL DEAL BUT ALL YOU DO IS OFFER HERESAY AND A SMIDGEN A VERY SMALL SMIDGEN OF TRUTH AT BEST. SO SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING LET ME SAY YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS.
I HAVE FOUND IN LIFE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENVIOUS OF SOMETHING TYPICALLY TRY TO MAKE IT INTO A LIE OR SAY BAD OR UNTRUE THINGS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ITEMIZED LIST OF FALSEHOODS OF THE SD SYSTEM NUMBERED SO WE CAN DEBATE THEM 1 BY 1.
HOW ABOUT IT TWS I KNOW YOU BEST AND WHY YOU ARE SO DETERMINED TO SAY SD IS NOT FROM THE SHAO-LIN TEMPLES IS BEYOND ME YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN EGO . SO HERE IS ALL YOU GUYS CHANCE TO ITEMIZE AND PROVE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ONCE AND FOR ALL. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL WHO FEEL SD IS NOT SHAOLIN. KC:o

The Willow Sword

12-16-2005, 05:43 AM

K. C. You once asked me over a Thai lunch if what we were learning was the "real" thing. I learned back then to be very selective and careful with my answers towards you since it was YOU who put the notion in Joes head that i was some sort of spy when you had asked me my M.A. background prior to SD. You brought it upon yourself to go to Joe and tell him something that i had no knowledge of at the time and it got me scrutinized and looked at as being some sort of "spy" sent to "steal" forms and whatever else the bullsh!t was surrounding all that mess with the students of Dr Ng and Dufresne.(it seems to have been a black mark against me from the beginning and would explain alot)
it was then K.C. that i realized that your role was and still is a self serving one. There are followers and leaders and you sir are a follower ,a self serving follower at that. i cant think of a better example of ego and the inflated nature with which you conduct yourself here on these forums(and i am certainly no saint on these forums either but at least i have some integrity) . i think i and others have learned to keep their distance from you.
so with that i think that debating with you is a lost cause and in the end will go nowhere fast.
how arrogantly presumptious to think that all who have an opinion about this subject are "jealous" or seek to fabricate lies or slander. as i understand it most of the comments here are opinions and statements based on direct experience, or the statements are based from what i would call "reality". but then again and as i have said all too many times before " we live in the reality we have created for ourselves, and everyone's reality seems to greatly differ on certain subjects. strange that everyones reality concerning SD connects in some way or another and supercedes the reality that SD has created for itself.
i wish you well in your current endeavors K.C. and regardless of the differences there has always been respect there, at least from my part and only from a position of martial ability. That's as far as it goes.

TWS

kwaichang

12-16-2005, 06:53 AM

TWS, I dont know where you got your info but it is incorrect. I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas. But I am not self serving except for the fact that I feel what I am learning is the real deal as you did. What changed your mind ?? Was it when you went to fight someone and told me you had a rib broken and was angry that no one wanted to go and fight with you against people who we didnt even know. Well you have to show me why you believe the way you do and if that is self serving so be it. But again you have evaded the question as all on this forum do all is speculation and rumor. Not fact. I was impressed by the fact you were willing to defend the honor of the system. Something must have changed your spirit and I regret that. I train for 0ne reason I love martial artsmore than I can tell you. I live to train and everytimer I train it is like the 1st time I learn something wonderful and new everytime. So think what you will and waste your time if you want but I would love to train with you again and to hear yours and anyones FACT NOT SPECULATION ABOUT sd . KC

The Willow Sword

12-16-2005, 07:38 AM

I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas.

uhh you need to reread my post KC. Actually READ IT.

let me refresh your memory. this was when i had first joined Sd and was just becoming a green belt. i was house sitting for you at the time and at your place we were discussing martial arts back grounds and you had asked me what my prior training was and who it was with, and i told you that i was studying with someone who was taught by Dr Jon ng and who also studied with someone by the name of John Dufresne. Now at the time i had NO idea about all the bullsh!t surrounding the rivalry and i had not had ANY contact with my prior teacher after i left KY to come back to Texas , so i had no idea from him and HE had no idea i had joined the SD school.

So a few days pass and while i am training outside joe confronts me about the convsersation that YOU AND I had about MY martial background. and thats when the accusations started and i felt like i had been covertly fuked with BY YOU.

now was it your intention to be the good sd soldier and report a possible spy in the organization?(which is a lame fukin thing to do anyway) or was there some other motivation on your part? maybe youd care to fill me in on what was going through that big head of yours at the time. frankly i dont care at this point ,,but what it showed me about YOUR character and Integrity is that there IS NONE there and therefore i chose to keep my distance from you.
So DONT even PRESUME to think that you KNOW ME BEST, because you dont.

TWS

Judge Pen

12-16-2005, 02:32 PM

I find it hard to believe that this "rivalry" is still getting air-time. For what it is worth, Dufresne has been here on these forms and I have even personally corresponded with him on his accounts of the events. The one thing that was made clear to me is that he regrets the arrogant display of ego on both sides of those events.

As for these two, you have personal issues that are certainly amplified by this petty debate. There will be no agreement so why even debate?

kwaichang

12-16-2005, 03:14 PM

TWS You amaze me we correspond privately and you are cordial. Yet in public you cut me or my personality down. I do recall talking to Joe about you and who you trained with but that is all btw I think he asked. I have learned that people make their own assumptions about things as you have about SD.
When we spoke privately you were so near I was going to contact you and meet with you, I am glad you expressed your true feelings. AS for your teacher Ng and the other guy you trained with, other than you I havent even heard of them. As for being a spy why should I care , typically people worry about spies , if they have something to hide, neither I nor SD do. You are hot and cold. I asked you to itemize because of all the people on this forum" I know you best". So again I ask put up or shut up stop using personal feelings to skirt the issue. Just the facts please not speculation or opinion, KC I personally have no personal issue with TWS why he feels how he does is a puzzle to me. KC:rolleyes:

Golden Tiger

12-16-2005, 05:38 PM

uhhh........mmmkay

So JP, what form(s) did you decide on?

Judge Pen

12-16-2005, 06:20 PM

Don't know. Considering how hectic work is right now, I'll probably just do Kwan Dao since I don't have to work it up, it's a nice little form, and its a unique form to SD so it will be judged on its own merits and not how it compares to their Tiger-Crane.

The Willow Sword

12-16-2005, 09:19 PM

K.C.;Look i have already said my thing when it comes to all this. you can find it within the pages of this ultra-long thread(which i wish gene would just get rid of). take it as opinion, fact, bullsh!t, whatever.
The general consensus still remains the same here and in the rest of the TCMA world. I do not wish to continue on that which has already been quite firmly established here and elsewhere.

The rest of you here: i site the personal experiences ive had with KC and my views about it here to make a point that it is useless to debate with him on anything. its not an attack on his personality persay,,just an unfortunate waste of time in my opinion given my experience.

JP: i only bring up the dr NG and dufresne thing to site an incident which took place that involved me and the constant horsesh!t ive had to deal with at SD for years when i was there. i in no way wish to bring up those other events that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME BECAUSE THEY HAPPENED AT A TIME WAY BEFORE I EVEN KNEW SD EXISTED( so lets not get ahead of ourselves here JP).

i find myself getting sucked back in to this thread and i do not wish to do so again.
so i am out of here yet again and hopefully the continuing process of getting the SD thing out of my system will finally be all but spent.

take care and peace,,Happy Holidays,,,TWS

kwaichang

12-17-2005, 01:53 AM

Well this was blown all out of proportion. While I have all the time in the world I am tired of wasting my time reading how people with no proof continue to say unproven and untrue things about SD. I issued a general point by point consolidation of the argument but to no avail. So sorry I bothered mentioning TWS as I had hoped he would lead the way not get angry. Sorry Man. So the invite is still there. KC:)

BM2

12-17-2005, 07:52 AM

the I am tired of wasting my time reading how people with no proof continue to say unproven and untrue things about SD. I issued a general point by point consolidation of the argument but to no avail. KC:)

I too grow tired of reading the same things but I don't try to change someone's mind, remember they are also growing tired of trying to change your mind as well:)
While many of things are untrue, strange and just unblievable there are some that are valid. MK has made a couple of points that I agree with. Funny thing is if he had started off in SD he would be defending it....almost:D
And last but most certainly not least, what in the hell did I do to you GT to put me in the same sentace as Sean?:p ;)

Judge Pen

12-17-2005, 01:42 PM

And last but most certainly not least, what in the hell did I do to you GT to put me in the same sentace as Sean?:p ;)

I know you were joking to a degree, but Sean's a good guy. He has his reasons for leaving and I respect that. His problems with SD are at least one from experience and not conjecture.

sean_stonehart

12-17-2005, 03:46 PM

:D Huh? Somebody ring??;)

JP... did you get that PM I sent?

kwaichang

12-17-2005, 04:55 PM

I wandered on to a site a Link through David Jamiesons link well I have a question??? If Shaolin Do is not TCMA then why all the similar movements that I observed in that tape sure there were some differences but also some similarities. Riddle me this , it stated there are many "styles of Black Tiger Kung Fu" if this is so then why cant the BT kung fu the SD people be just as Chinesey as any, I also observed a Kwan Dao form again many of the moves were similar maybe a different sequence but close. I also noticed that the moves were not as "power" oriented as those of SD. Different emphasis different teacher maybe a different way of thinking I guess. KC:confused:

BM2

12-17-2005, 06:29 PM

Yeah that is why I put the tounge sticking out and the wink face at the end.
KC, what I meant is you know what ever is written will not change your mind. You should know that whatever you write will not change DJ's mind. PM sent.

Judge Pen

12-17-2005, 08:16 PM

:D Huh? Somebody ring??;)

JP... did you get that PM I sent?

I don't think I did.

sean_stonehart

12-17-2005, 11:40 PM

resent :D :D

CaptinPickAxe

12-18-2005, 05:01 PM

Wow....

Spies, half-truths, and more drama than Jerry Springer, Monday afternoon soap-operas, and 2 bums fighting over the last pork chop rolled into one...

SD's up to the same 'ol bullsh!t.:rolleyes:

CaptinPickAxe

12-18-2005, 05:07 PM

Also,

Sitting around an internet message board arguing that your art is just as l33t if not more than the originator that your GM copied it from is just retarded. If you want respect...fight. Go on to Bullshido, attend a throwdown, and earn some fu(kin' respect instead of begging for it. The reason I say Bullshido is because KFM has a policy against arranging fights, but it's the only way I'll shut up and start agreeing with SD.

Beat someone besides HedgeHogey (and not in a wanna be "kumite" multiple fight format, this just fruther solidifies the B.S.), and more than once to gain respect.

So, gents...

Quit being a big group of Patsies and Nancy boys....strap on some fu(kin' gloves and EARN that respect

MAN UP, B!TCHES

kwaichang

12-18-2005, 07:44 PM

Shows how big a pansey you are Pick who needs gloves H//l even the NHB matches have rules . You are the biggest BS so far this forum is not titled who can kick who, it is, is SD real. and whether some one can fight or not is not the issue but for sport, it aint real anyway. Its for real. KC:p

kwaichang

12-18-2005, 07:45 PM

SH** Are you from Monkey island or FIRE Island KC

chud

12-19-2005, 06:31 AM

Wow....

Spies, half-truths, and more drama than Jerry Springer, Monday afternoon soap-operas...

I know. I can't stop reading it.

Judge Pen

12-19-2005, 01:35 PM

Haven't we beat this horse already? If an SD beats a __________ guy, it means that he is a good fighter and implies that SD can train you to fight, but it does not prove that SD is or isn't what it claims to be. Now I'm all for a good throwdown, but to say that it will be the end all be all of the debate is naive.

Golden Tiger

12-19-2005, 02:50 PM

Quit being a big group of Patsies and Nancy boys....strap on some fu(kin' gloves and EARN that respect

MAN UP, B!TCHES

Profile info:

Date of Birth:
January 17, 1984
Age:
21
What's your MA style?:
Shuai Chiao, Boxing, Splashing Hands, Shaolin-Doh!
Location:
Cannibal Village, Monkey Island
Interests:
Kung Fu, Eastern Religion, Long Boarding, and Music
Occupation:
Student

Enough said...

Then again, don't monkeys just sit around wacking off and flinging poo all day?

Citong Shifu

12-19-2005, 04:31 PM

Wow, you guys are ruthless on this Shaolin-Do subject! You know, The name Shaolin is very commercialized now. Almost Everyone is Shaolin,no matter the style, lol. It seems like every Chinese martial arts school and teacher is the only real Shaolin, hmmmmm. In my 30 years experience I've seen and heard alot of who's, who and what's, what. As far as shaolin-Do, it seems like some people have had a bad experience with this style and others just don't like the claims given by that particular Grandmaster. I can really understand this. I had a similar experience when I wasted 6 years in Wah Lum kung fu, but all and all, does this stuff really matter? You kow what you know, he knows what he knows, I know what I know, etc. Isn't this what really matters. Sure I know some things about Shaolin-Do's history and claims, as well as other schools/styles, who really cares!!! I truely believe that if people are being mislead it will all come out in time, until then we train as Chinese martial artist, improve our health/fitness, our selves, and our skills. The rest of the chop suey slop will dwindle and fade out, eventually. Ok, everyone take care. Train hard and live wise.

Ron.

MasterKiller

12-19-2005, 04:32 PM

While many of things are untrue, strange and just unblievable there are some that are valid. MK has made a couple of points that I agree with. Funny thing is if he had started off in SD he would be defending it....almost:D

Possibly, but I was always pretty skeptical about the stuff my Sifu told me as well. In fact, I started coming to this place because I was trying to find information to verify some of his stories.

So, I think I probably would have become disillusioned with SD failry early on once I started putting 2 and 2 together.

Of course, right now I'm out on my own anyway. So, odds are I would have become disillusioned with whatever I started with. ;-)

Golden Tiger

12-20-2005, 02:59 PM

Let's look at the styles of nan sil lum such as Choy li Fut, Hung Ga or wing chun, to just indicate a few. There is nothing in the SD versions of forms they've tried to co-opt from these styles that resembles the principles or actual forms themselves. A beautiful example is the butchering of the tiger/crane form I've seen from sd in more than one iteration. It is sad and wholly incorrect.

How about the swallow form the had or rather "bird" It is practically straight outta shotokan karate and yet it is given the attributes of chinese martial arts in the descrioption of the demonstration.

If you guys learn that form, break it down, extrapolate it and figure out what it is what in it, then by all means, let's discuss it. Otherwise, take my word in regards to the film of me when I say that what I am doing here or there is coming from a viewpoint of "I" am doing it, not watching it, not mindlessly ambling about etc etc.

Too bad you don't practice what you preach David. Life is a little different when you are on the hot seat huh.....

(sorry, works slow with the holidays and all....kind of bored this morning)

orion_steel

01-09-2006, 06:47 AM

i have thought about posting on this topic for 2 years but i have always backed down...but here goes.

i think that politics is what kills the shaolin-do system....the system has some points that are interesting....there are many many problems with it....i could write a really long list....but hey, if you are happy with the style then you should pursue it...but to me the problem comes with a certain sort of "incomplete" knowledge, politics, and arrogance of many (but not all).

but then again, that does appeal to some.

so, i suppose as they say in my parts of the world "it will all come out in the wash", hehehehe

kwaichang

01-09-2006, 03:53 PM

I thought this was finished KC:p

orion_steel

01-09-2006, 05:19 PM

Yea, i dont mean to get things started up again....so no one needs to reply. I think that i was just getting some stuff off of my chest. Thanks for hearing me out though. It is appreciated.

lxtruong

01-09-2006, 06:06 PM

This thread will never die. $h4£1n-Ð0 ƒ0r3v3r

(l33t translation found at http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/leet.php)

humbleman

01-09-2006, 06:23 PM

It was a warm, sunny fall evening in Erie, heading home from a Shaolin-Do class. It's 78 degrees, the windows are all down cooling me with rapidly evaporating sweat. Bright columns of sunlight streaming down through golden leaves and black branches make me squint. Feeling beat up but happy and exhilarated, almost high. The radio is playing R.E.M.s latest, "Shiny Laughing People." Turning it up, the words become clear- "Love me, love me, put it in the ground where the flowers grow...gold and silver shine..." Already at full volume, the music unaccountably seems to grow louder until it permeates the whole world. Feeling for all the world like the victorious warrior. Beautiful, beautiful Erie.
It's only now looking back that I really know what those shafts of light were, coming down from heaven through the trees. Should have been able to tell from their perfect straightness, regardless of the angle of descent. So absolutely pure they were clear, but so bright they hurt the eyes. The defining edges sharper than any worldly razor or sword could ever be. The souls of fallen heroes, lined up in staggered formation among the trees. The selfless light that shines from the finest of human hearts eternally as a reminder to us left behind.
I would not trade my experience with Shaolin-Do for all the money in the world.:)

cha kuen

01-09-2006, 07:07 PM

looks bogus to me. but if white americans dig such a thing.... then whatever.

Judge Pen

01-10-2006, 04:25 PM

humbleman

01-10-2006, 08:07 PM

Was watching documentary about iraq war. Army intel guy said, "when everything else you've tried has failed, there's one thing they will understand."

humbleman

01-10-2006, 08:08 PM

"violence- the other universal language."

orion_steel

01-20-2006, 08:36 PM

"violence- the other universal language."

i like that.

MasterKiller

01-31-2006, 07:21 PM

What do you guys think about this site:

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/histgen.html

They are a Chinese style migrated to Indonesia, claim a true Shaolin lineage, the guy came to America later than Sin The', and yet they don't have any Japanese trappings.

In fact, they have a picture that looks like from 50s or 60s of men doing CHinese lion dancing out in public.

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/images/indonesia2.jpg

Anyway, food for thought.

Radhnoti

01-31-2006, 08:48 PM

I think it's pretty interesting MK, thanks for the site.
From the site MK posted - " Our style of Kung Fu, Shaolin Hung Mei, is therefore descendant from the original Shaolin Temple. "Hao Peng", the namesake of our school (the Chinese word for school is "wu kwon"), was a nickname given to the last Grandmaster, Choung Shi Gouw Shin Hie, who, several generations ago, migrated to Indonesia. "Hao Peng" was a traveling medicine showman who gave demonstrations and drew large crowds. In order to keep the crowds back, he would spin his fire rope dart. In doing so, he was given the nickname Ho Fang - "Ho" meaning "Fire" and "Fang" meaning "Throw". Due to the language difference in Indonesia, his name was pronounced "Hao Peng". Choung Shi Gouw Shin Hie learned his kung fu from Choung Shi Louie Pek Sing from Northern Shaolin. "

What's interesting, to me, about this info is how tantalizingly close it is to a few stories passed down through SD.
The story of Ji Shou Hu. I've posted it in full earlier in this thread but in summary Sin The' as a boy visited a "colleague" of GM Ie's on a neighboring island (Bali). He was giving a demo with chain whip...on a bicycle...in front of a crowd.
Also, the "Giant Bird" forms were a family style and now are known as tai peng (note the other school's ancestor is known as Hao Peng)...this is what GM Sin's brother Hiang specialized in as it was taught by another teacher at the school (Liu Su Pong). And, I BELIEVE, that GM/Master/whatever Hiang ALSO specialized in chain whip. I've seen at least one picture of Hiang whirling around either a chain or rope dart on fire...possibly no relation since THEIR Peng is supposed to be a pronounciation issue, but an odd similarity nontheless.

Their curriculum is NOT all that different than SDs either..."Than Tui", "counter movements" (which correspond with what they call one step sparring techniques),Tai Chi Ba Qua Hsing-I Juen is the last long form learned in their "internal" section , northern and southern forms. If there's absolutely no connection at all, it's interesting how the history (and structure) passed down in each system has certain parallels.

lxtruong

01-31-2006, 11:47 PM

phew, I thought this thread was going to die and we would never reach our goal of 10000000 posts. Good job MK.

Looking at the pictures, it seems that before their most recent heads came to the US the head honcho just wore normal guy clothes.

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/histpg2.html <- wearing dockers

Their "chinese uniforms" seem to be a rather recent introduction. Why, oddly similar to introducing japanese gis.

Judge Pen

02-01-2006, 12:13 AM

I thought their material list, and its origins were interesting as well. Shantung in SD is where the black tiger (He Hu Chuan) style originated. It seems they have it listed as well (He Fu juen) although the translations could be off. I'd like to see their Oo Ling Juen form and compare it to SD's and Lau Bun's lineage.

Radhnoti

02-01-2006, 04:22 AM

kwaichang

02-01-2006, 05:20 AM

Again judgeing a style by the uniform is a flaw in logic. But this site does confirm that a "true" Shaolin system did migrate to Indonesia then why couldnt others ? KC

MasterKiller

02-01-2006, 06:14 AM

You think their He Hu Chuan is what they translate as Tiger or Black Panther? The black tigers are, from what I understand and as far as I know, unique to SD...it'd be REALLY interesting to see someone else's.

I have a Shandong Black Tiger form.

Shaolin has its own Black Tigers as well, though I believe they were created pretty recently.

Radhnoti

02-01-2006, 07:06 PM

I actually meant the look/moves/feel of SD's Black Tigers, sorry to be so vague. It's one of the few SD forms I've heard people compliment online. But, honestly, SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

Judge Pen

02-01-2006, 09:05 PM

SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

Really? I've seen lots of good Hung Gar, CLF and mantis in person. No other Tiger, though. I've seen some on vid. The techniques and footwork were very similiar, but it was played a little slower than we do our Black Tiger.

Radhnoti

02-01-2006, 11:55 PM

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Seriously, I've heard of no styles outside of Korean/Japanese and shaolin-do even within an hour of where I live. And to be honest, the Japanese styles all seem to have even more nebulous histories than SD...or if they DO have a "lineage" it's via seminar.
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

Judge Pen

02-02-2006, 12:52 AM

Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

It's got more. Not much for CMA though, but certainly more than where you are or where I used to live. CMA: SD, Wah Lum, a BaGua/Chen Tai Chi teacher, and Richard Clear in Maryville (Kung Tao). Lots of TKD and some Japanese (a really good aikido school here, small but good instruction.) The boxing guy you mentioned, some BJJ and MMA gyms. I've run accross some poeple that train privately too so it's there if you want. For my tastes, I'm happy with the Mullins. They work me hard and teach me well. And its very affordable.

The CLF I see is in Atlanta and the mantis is Oso and Yu Shan's group. Good stuff a couple of hours away.

Golden Tiger

02-02-2006, 08:35 PM

MK is gonna mess right around and discover the proof that SD is in fact a legit system...:D

orion_steel

02-06-2006, 12:27 PM

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

I may have to end up moving to Tennessee i think :)

Judge Pen

02-06-2006, 03:34 PM

Look us up if you do.

lxtruong

02-06-2006, 05:27 PM

Everyone knows Austin is way cooler than any place in Tenn.

We also have killer Mexican Martinis. And good BBQ, beat that!

Judge Pen

02-06-2006, 05:32 PM

I've got nothing but good things to say about Austin. . . . but our b-ball team put the smack down on your then ranked #2 horns.

(I must be in a alternate dimension if I'm talking up Tenn. basketball, but not mentioning football.)

yu shan

02-06-2006, 05:50 PM

O/T with current discussion, but I had the chance to witness Judge in action this past weekend. I had a group participating in a tournament in NC. I knew JP was entering this contest and I looked forward to seeing him again. And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude! Anyway, I officiated in forms and fighting. So I of course got to see JP in action. Your 5 animal form was a very nice set... extremely long, how in the h*ll can you remember all that? I scored JP`s Kwando high, one of the nicer sets I have seen and a personal favorite, some difficult moves to execute. But what most impressed me with JP was his fighting! This man is a true gladiator! He is right at home in the ring, and displayed excellant combat skills. His name came up many times that night while our group were pounding back beers, reflecting over the day. I will use him as an example for my folks in the future. JP`s division was very tuff, and he manned up, a real stud in the ring.

Judge Pen

02-06-2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks as always Jim. You're going to have to post the KFO picture you took.

yu shan

02-06-2006, 06:34 PM

I plan on posting the pic, every picture tells a story.

lxtruong

02-06-2006, 06:48 PM

Yes. 5 animal fist is long as ****. I'm working it up right now for our tournament coming up and everytime I finish running through it I'm like "Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

Bah, basketball. I'm an Illini, so I care naught about the crazy antics of these wacky longhorns.

Judge Pen

02-06-2006, 06:53 PM

"Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

I know the feeling, but the form is just so pretty when its done right. One day I'll get there.

And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude!

I know; and she can cook.

yu shan

02-07-2006, 04:21 PM

Hmm, a lady that looks that good and cooks too! You deserve her bro.

sean_stonehart

02-07-2006, 04:22 PM

Wait til you drop by one day while passing through town & she has "snacks" for you. I haven't eaten that well before in restaurants!!

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 04:59 PM

Jim and Oso, Knoxville is half-way between Nashville and Asheville. Yo can drop by my place anytime for snacks or just to say hello. I'm two minutes away from a school if you want to get a workout in too.

Golden Tiger

02-07-2006, 05:07 PM

...... Knoxville is half-way between Knoxville and Asheville. .......

Is it just me or.....

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 05:10 PM

Is it just me or.....

Oops. That invite goes for you too, GT or anyone else in Kentucky if you are ever down my way.

Radhnoti

02-07-2006, 05:14 PM

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

sean_stonehart

02-07-2006, 05:20 PM

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

Whoo hoo!!! Food & beer supplies are at the top of his road too!!!

Wonder if he'll leave a credit card laying around to make sure we don't run short???:D :p

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 05:27 PM

Just take care of the dogs. That will save me money on a dog-sitter.

yu shan

02-07-2006, 05:33 PM

JP, I`m interested, have you run this by Matt? This takes two hours off my trip and I can be home to my puerto rican princess that night.

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 05:44 PM

I'm all for it. A friend of mine just opened a school 2 minutes from my house. It is also 2 minutes off of the interstate in West Knoxville. I am helping him teach some classes in exchange for a key to the place. I'll be there on Saturdays from 10-11:30 for class and open mat. I can meet you guys there if it would be easier for you (and I can pick up some technique along the way). Just let me know when you guys want to come down. Let me clear it with my friend, but I don't anticipate a problem.

Oso

02-07-2006, 06:58 PM

Sounds good to me. West K'ville would put it right in the middle of me and Yu.

Let's set it up.

Yu, don't forget you'll still cross the time zone.

yu shan

02-07-2006, 07:10 PM

Ha dang we`re building bridges! Yep, I`ve done the knoxville run 100 times. I know every nick and cranny in I-40. JP thanks for the offer, this helps.

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 07:12 PM

No problem. Right off of the Lovel Road exit. . . .

yu shan

02-07-2006, 07:55 PM

West Knoxville, 2nd exit good for me, I hate the thru traffic. Bad for Matt though. Are they ever going to get this traffic problem fixed in K`ville?

Judge Pen

02-07-2006, 08:13 PM

I've been here for 9 years and it hasn't gotten any better. One thing is for sure, they've worked on the problem enough that you would think it should be fixed.

sean_stonehart

02-07-2006, 09:28 PM

I thought that road construction was SOP for Chattvegas & K'ville. I've been in & through them since the late 80's & have yet to avoid road work at any time.

kwaichang

02-08-2006, 05:17 AM

Hey JP where is the school I used to live off Lovell Rd too. BTW plan to be living there by April Maybe we can train and build further the bridges ?? KC:)

Oso

02-08-2006, 05:24 AM

Ok. When's the first date?

Yu, I need to really get some time in on Ling Beng Bu, both sides.

Ou Ji

02-08-2006, 05:41 AM

Hey, can anybody get in on this?

Actually I'm heading for a road trip soon and might be able to make a few stops along the way. PM me where I can find some of you guys.

Oso

02-08-2006, 05:52 AM

to be on topic for a second...

I had a walk in tonight.

She had just come from the SD school down the street.

In the process of pitching myself and my school she asked me what the difference is between me and the SD school.

Here's what I told her.

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

Oso

02-08-2006, 06:18 AM

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

kwaichang

02-08-2006, 06:40 AM

Glad to hear that you have not expressed Bias in what you told that prospective student I would like to meet you you seem to harbor the true Martial Way are you in K-ville KC:)

Oso

02-08-2006, 03:27 PM

nope, I'm only about 90 minutes away though.

Judge Pen

02-08-2006, 03:53 PM

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

Be sure to bring in Scott Powell in Asheville. He teaches there too, but only has about 10 students. He's not the most politically correct guy, but he has a good heart, a great personality, and he's a good fighter. He just calls things as he sees them which can rub some people the wrong way. He was there on Saturday and ended up being a coach of sorts for me.

As for what you said; that's fine. I explain it to people like this:

Our art is controversial in the CMA community. Our teacher came from Indonesia, and while claiming lineage to the Shaolin temples, the outward trappings have changed somewhat from what you see in other CMA schools. Our history, beyond Sin The's teachers, are also unverifiable. While some people place a great deal of emphasis on history and lineage, I think what matters is the quality of the instruction and the applicability of the material. I feel we offer both as well as any school.

But, then again, I am a little biased. Call it as you see it Oso. I feel you are as objective as anyone I've met on this topic.

I expalin the difference in your school and ours in terms of focus. Your school focuses on a single style and you will get a deeper understanding of mantis forms, theory application and principles there than we can offer you. The forms are good and they train good fighters. Our school teaches more diverse material in a curriculim designed to build off the skills learned earlier. It's a different approach, but the end result is intended to be the same.

Plus you guys have the best spear set I've ever seen.

Ou Ji

02-08-2006, 04:00 PM

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

Yeah, it's the Ou Ji Fight Tour '06. :D

Actually, if there's as much drinking as I hear then fighting is inevitable. I'm mostly Irish. :p

yu shan

02-08-2006, 04:20 PM

LOL, yea everytime I get back from a road trip to Asheville I got to attend an AA meeting! :D Oso, heck I need to get back on Beng Bu, I have been so busy with getting my guys and gals ready for the tournament, that I have neglected my training. I spent last night reviewing Kevin`s seminar, good stuff. JP & Oso, lets talk, this will be a bounce trip for me.

Oso

02-08-2006, 04:54 PM

JP: Yea, I will talk to Scott too.

I do try to be fair and as I said, recent discussions w/ Bob and the tournament experience recently have left me feeling more positive about you guys.

I know I couldn't have pulled that roundhouse kick off from as low as you were. :)

To be fair, I think that spear form is one of Jim's Wah Lum forms. I started learning it but haven't finished it. I like it.

Ou Ji: yep, plenty o' drinking but I'm not a fighter as far as that goes. I like to sit back and chill and talk.

Yu Shan: I thought your meetings were every week? ;) Well, lets get Beng Bu back up together.

Judge Pen

02-08-2006, 05:17 PM

Last weekend in this month should work for me. Saturday afternoon or any day on Sunday. I still need to clear it with my friend. If not, I have a yard if the weather is good enough.

dougadam

02-08-2006, 09:57 PM

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

http://www.shaolin-do.com/

Sin The'

02-09-2006, 03:17 AM

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

BM2

02-09-2006, 07:58 AM

Man I wish Gene would delete that account :confused: or Dougadam would give him a candle and some bleach;)

Golden Tiger

02-09-2006, 03:14 PM

No BM2. That would be censorchip...and that's just wrong.

On a side note, are you going to make it to the seminar this time?

lxtruong

02-09-2006, 04:47 PM

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

I just wish he would structure his trollish posts in a more gramatically correct manner. What is this supposed to mean?

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

BM2

02-09-2006, 05:04 PM

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39080

Candles and bleach? Now you know the rest of the story. Be sure to scroll down and read Gene's responses.
GT,if something doesn't come up I'll be there next month.

Golden Tiger

02-09-2006, 05:07 PM

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

SimonM

02-09-2006, 05:40 PM

Is Mega Fist back again?

lxtruong

02-09-2006, 06:03 PM

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

Haha, alas no can do, since we're leaving here driving on Thursday. Plus, I've been through one of Master Bill's thursday classes before. I don't know if I can stand having my brain and body fried twice in one week. Last time I had to "learn" 2/3 of Hua 2-man set #1 in 30 minutes. Can't remember a **** thing of course. :)

wdl

02-13-2006, 02:19 AM

Have you guys set a date yet? I might dig my way out of my hole up here in Grainger Co. and show up.

Long: How's Austin? I might be out in Round Rock in the next month or two. I'll look you up if I am. Need BEER!

-Will

humbleman

03-28-2006, 02:17 AM

Found out today why weight on end of whip looks like head of snake. Decided to try a reverse between legs and guess exact point where **** thing landed. Sensei Brian would have been pleased. First time, despite his years of exhortations, threats, and pleading that my back went perfectly straight during practice. Won't need to pay for a tattoo now.

Golden Tiger

03-28-2006, 03:20 PM

Emeraldphoenix

03-28-2006, 07:41 PM

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

Judge Pen

03-28-2006, 08:26 PM

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

That's great to hear! I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

kwaichang

03-28-2006, 09:08 PM

Judge who is the teacher for the Kingston pike school. I saw Shaolin so who is the teacher etc ??? KC

Judge Pen

03-28-2006, 10:37 PM

You mean beside the Rush off the Lovel Road exit? That's Daniel Mattson. I'm there for open gym on Saturday mornings.

kwaichang

03-29-2006, 02:30 AM

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

Golden Tiger

03-29-2006, 03:06 PM

I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

Judge Pen

03-29-2006, 04:12 PM

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

Master Garry is his primary teacher, but he has learned most of his stuff after black from Kevin and Mike.

Judge Pen

03-29-2006, 04:14 PM

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

Thanks GT. I'm hoping to have another Mullins martial artist eventually!

yu shan

03-29-2006, 04:55 PM

Hey JP

Looking to get over your way soon to hook up with Oso. You still interested in that spear form? PM me some info.

Hey man, do you know Master James Cook? He is in your area, I would like to meet the man.

Judge Pen

03-29-2006, 05:06 PM

kwaichang

03-29-2006, 08:07 PM

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

Golden Tiger

03-29-2006, 08:29 PM

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

"Sifu Daniel Mattson ~ 3rd Degree
Studies exclusively with Elder Master Garry Mullins, Master Kevin, and Master Mike.
Daniel specializes in the Internal Arts such as Tai Chi Ch’uan and Meditation."

Judge Pen

03-29-2006, 09:22 PM

KC, why are you asking? Daniel's a nice enough guy. Very detail oriented and an excellent teacher.

kwaichang

03-30-2006, 07:57 AM

I may have trained with him, I was in the area and saw the school, I saw Shaolin but no Do so I wasnt sure who taught there. KC:)

Judge Pen

03-30-2006, 02:06 PM

Cool. If you were in that area, then you were 2 minutes from my home.

humbleman

04-13-2006, 01:39 AM

I put in W.M.D. on the search bar but couldn't find anything. Any suggestions? (the thread shall not die- especially on page 111.

Mantis Fist

04-14-2006, 12:25 PM

Not a traditional shaolin style

kwaichang

04-14-2006, 02:41 PM

Yeah sure, anyway, Judge you voting on May 2nd remember to tell everyone in the Knoxville area to OUST Judge Swann and vote for David Lee. for 4th circuit court. BTW I may be your neighbor soon E-mail me as to about where you live neighborhood and all KC:o

Judge Pen

04-15-2006, 06:22 AM

Green Cloud

04-29-2006, 10:47 PM

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

Golden Tiger

05-01-2006, 05:29 AM

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

Good point....we definitely don't have the flashy kung fu suits that you guys do...

:rolleyes:

Green Cloud

05-01-2006, 08:00 PM

That's Cute, Actualy those pic's are from the early 90's and I have to admit I hated those uniforms.

Judge Pen

05-01-2006, 08:11 PM

Sorry I jumped into this thread late didn't have time to read all the post'd but from what I have seen Saolin Do is realy Karate Do.

Since your post is based upon your observation, please tell me where have you seen shaolin-do? Have you watched any clasees and if so where? Have you ever trained with anyone who studied shaolin-do? Ever crossed hands with anyone?

I mean I could say that what I've seen of [insert style here] then it is [insert whatever here] but without any real experience with a style, then how much weight would you expect it to carry.

Green Cloud

05-01-2006, 08:31 PM

That's Cute, Actualy those pic's are from the early 90's and I have to admit I hated those uniforms. Seriously I've herd the terms the shaoilin way or Do by many traditional Karate instructors. In my youth I was involved in GO JU (hard soft) and my instructors traced back there lineage to Shaolin. In fact some have made a comparison to Go Ju and Bak Mei.

This Idea that Go Ju traces it's ancestory back to bak mei wich was a shaolin system often led to people calling it Shaolin Do. As far as uniforms are concerned everyone on the Shaolin Do site was wearing Karate Gi's, Tokaido brand no less.

Anyway I wasn't judging a book by it's cover, just taking an educated guess.

greencloud.net

Judge Pen

05-01-2006, 08:48 PM

Green Cloud

05-01-2006, 09:16 PM

Hey pen, I wasn't judging the style by the uniforms I was just implying that at first glance this was a Japanese style by the uniforms they were wearing.

I also shared my experiences with the word Shaoilin Do. I like all draditional styles of MA so I'm not poking fun here.

I haven't herd of Shaoilin Do so I'm not at liberty to comment on this style. I just figured it was some kind of Karate based sysytem since In my experiences I've herd karate practitioners call what they do Shaolin Do

I also saw another site and they were wearing Kung Fu uniforms so you see I wasn't judging a book by it's cover. I was just stating what I knew from my personal exp.

If you read my first post I explained that I just jumped into this thread and had not yet read up.

I'm not trying to flame this thread Pen so put down that fire extinguisher, I meant no disrespect, just realy taking an educated guess that's all.

greencloud.net