Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

*Wipes the sarcasm off of the computer screen.*

I start with the shell, but eventually I'll get to the tootsie-roll center.

[lxtruong]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

"Wow, you guys read ALOT of books!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?"

[chud]

I can't believe I actually read all 95 pages of this thread. It's time I'll never get back, but at the same time I just couldn't stop. Anyway, after having read the whole thing it seems to me that we can agree on a few things:

1.) Starchaser mixes some mean music.

2.) Jonie Uniforms sells some quality uniforms.

3.) ShaolinDo teaches too many forms too quickly. However despite that there are some pretty cool people who train in it, and it is what it is, so it's probably pointless to debate any of the other points because we'll just never agree.

[Ou Ji]

NNNNOOOOO!!!!!

Save the conclusions for page 100. :D

[Brad]

"Wow, you guys read ALOT of books!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?"

Most people don't ;) Reading a book on medicine doesn't make one a doctor... of course reading books and practicing kungfu aren't the same, so it's kind of a silly arguement anyway :p

BTW, about learning lots of forms... I practiced longfist basics for about 4 years with little form work. It takes me about 30 minutes to commit a minute long form to memory now. I admit, I do pick things up fairly quickly compared to a lot of people, but I know I'm not the only one. As most have seen from the vids, SD pretty much follows the same basics whether it's drunken, monkey, mantis, chang quan, taiji, etc. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to memorize 800 to 900 or so forms, especially if you make notes, and practice them all with esentially the same physical basics.

[MasterKiller]

Just because you 'could' doesn't mean you 'should'.

[Brad]

True... ;)

[kwaichang]

Why not learn the forms if they are here to learn ???? KC

[MasterKiller]

Why not learn the forms if they are here to learn ???? KC

Well, let's say you learn something like 200 open hand forms.

How often do you get a chance to practice each form? If you do 10 forms a day, it would take you 20 days to cycle through all your forms. So, every year you would perform each form maybe 14 or 15 times. And that's if you do them every day, 365 days a year.

I have 10 open-hand forms that I maintain. In that same amount of time, I can do each form 365 times.

In ten years, I would have performed each of my sets 3,650 times, while you may have performed each set 140 to 150 times.

Everything else being equal, who do you think will have more indepth knowledge of their forms?

[Judge Pen]

Bah, math.

At best I only keep 15 forms up to speed. The rest are pieces that can be put together if I need to. So I pick the 10 to 15 that I really like and I have them as well as I can.

[lxtruong]

Let's go back to the book analogy:

Person A reads one book a week, at approximately 250 pages per book. That's 13,000 pages of book a year.

Person B reads one book a year, but rereads the same book every week. That's 250 pages of book per year.

At the end of the year, who will have more in-depth knowledge of their respective material? Obviously Person B, who would probably be able to recite the book back by heart.

But who would have a wider overall BREATH of knowledge? I would contend that is Person A, who is likely (we assume) have read books of varying subject matter and such.

Transfer this analogy to forms. Obviously Person A with 200 forms won't be able to practice their forms as often as Person B. More likely the case will be that Person A will have a set of forms that are their favorite (10 seems like a reasonable number) that s/he will practice often (although still less often than Person B would from their forms).

However, even if Person A only retains a small fraction of the concepts from the other forms, I would maintain that with the same amount of hard work Person A would not be far behind Person B, with the additional benefit of having gained concepts from various (presumably different) sources.

[sean_stonehart]

However, even if Person A only retains a small fraction of the concepts from the other forms, I would maintain that with the same amount of hard work Person A would not be far behind Person B, with the additional benefit of having gained concepts from various (presumably different) sources.

I would maintain that they can not. You can't reasonably presume to think if you do "a little of this, a little of that, a little of the other" with no relationship between concepts, mechanics, theories & structures, you would be as proficient as a person who practices a single system, with a single set of concepts, mechanics, theories & structure.

Let's increase that to say... 2 or 3 systems total. If you are working similar concepts, mechanics, theories & structures, then interchanging ideas, skills, techniques isn't a big deal, provided the practice is structured, consistant & maintainable as MK & JP both indiciated. Even if the extra system or 2 are dissimilar, as long as the amount to practice & quality time spent on each is worthwhile, structured, consistant & maintainable then it's doable, but stetched at this point to maintain the proper foundations for them.

However if you do "2 of this, 4 of these, 1 big one of this, a smidge here, a smidge there, etc..." with no foundations or formal proper training in a single one, what have you got?? A bunch of pages with squigglies on them that you still can't understand. You can read them on the surface for sure, but the foundation to understand what's written just isn't there.

[Judge Pen]

Well the nice thing about having a wide range of material to chose from is that I can choose where I want to focus my training (or it can chose me based on my body type). As much as I love northern long-fist, I'm not as suited to it as I am in other systems. If all I had to learn was nothern sets, then I would be better at them, but never as good as I could be in another system. But I can sample another system and decide it suits me better and focus my training in those areas. I still learn the northern material, but it isn't my ideal. What it does is force me beyond my range of comfortablness. My footwork is better, I mave better, but I still don't do those forms justice. But they still help me and help thge material that does suit me be better also.

[kwaichang]

Lets suppose I have 70 forms learned and I practice 60 of them I personally do a 2- 3 a dayer training to maintain my forms and try to do more than scratch the surface.
So with 60 forms trained on 2x / wk = 120 over a 6 day period that means i will have done 20 forms a day that is 10 in the am and 10 in the pm if you divide them equally. 60 forms at an avg of 35 moves each which some have far more such as Long Fist , Hua's etc. will = 2100 "moves" a day that I perform x 6 to 7 days / wk =12600 moves. With the infinite possibilities of attack lets suppose over a ten year period I did this only 300 days per year that = 630,000 moves in one partial year that I can use to defend my self. The numbers speak for them selves and since some moves are variations of others there is replication but whether you hit someone with a palm or a fist doesnt matter. I personally feel that with 630,000 moves over a 10 year period gives me a better chance of responding appropriately as you are training the Neural Pathways to respond w/o conscious thought not to mention thje conditioning aspect. Also do not forget that repetitive movement in the same plane of movement increases the chance of over training injury thus you cant train and are not as good as you could be! KC:)

[Golden Tiger]

Ok, if I have 24 beers drink 12 and give 2 away but bum 3 more then have a shot of tekillya then go to bed, I still will have as big a headache as I got trying to decipher all that math.

First, what we learned was crap. Then it was too much crap. Then it was still too much crap but we just weren't digging deep enough into the crap to know that it was crap. Lord have mercy! I never would have imagined prior to the age of the message board just how bad I was.

Yes, we have too many forms. Way too many IMHO. But like JP eluded to, it does allow one to find something that fits them and gives them the chance to learn it well. I see it like this...every new form I learn, there will be one or two moves that make me go "Wow, I never thought of doing it that way". Then I take those two moves and incorporate them into my knowledge base and voila, I am two moves better.

As for training deep into just one thing....thats kinda like selective breeding. It works for horse bloodlines but not too well for people. Heck, look at Eastern Ky! (sorry but I lived there for a time so I can talk about them). And to be honest, mutts make the best (and sometimes meanest) dogs.

JP: Vid Mail

[sean_stonehart]

Ok, if I have 24 beers drink 12 and give 2 away but bum 3 more then have a shot of tekillya then go to bed, I still will have as big a headache as I got trying to decipher all that math.

Aw now... don't go dragging good alcohol into this. Tequila is truely a drink of the gods... :) If you'll switch to beer without the preservatives, the headache also isn't as bad as the American swill passed around as beer.


First, what we learned was crap. Then it was too much crap. Then it was still too much crap but we just weren't digging deep enough into the crap to know that it was crap. Lord have mercy! I never would have imagined prior to the age of the message board just how bad I was.

Actually I never said crap, just missing foundational training for the specific systems/forms/styles laid claim to in the style.


Yes, we have too many forms. Way too many IMHO. But like JP eluded to, it does allow one to find something that fits them and gives them the chance to learn it well. I see it like this...every new form I learn, there will be one or two moves that make me go "Wow, I never thought of doing it that way". Then I take those two moves and incorporate them into my knowledge base and voila, I am two moves better.

Yes but the way SD is set up you never get to learn any one thing well since there's constantly something new being moved into the arena.

Tiger Crane for instance. It's a singular Hung Ga form taught in SD. Do you think a SD person will understand it as well as a Hung Ga player who plays that set along with the basics of HG with only a few more sets in the entire system for years on end as opposed to the SD player who will receive multiple more sets from differing ends of the MA spectrum over the same amount of time?


As for training deep into just one thing....thats kinda like selective breeding. It works for horse bloodlines but not too well for people. Heck, look at Eastern Ky! (sorry but I lived there for a time so I can talk about them). And to be honest, mutts make the best (and sometimes meanest) dogs.


Dunno about the EKy people. I do like driving though Ky though. Very nice scenery except this last time it was all brown from the lack of rain.

True about mutts... however that doesn't apply to MAs. Too much equals too much. At least with speciality comes thorough understanding of it as opposed to brief passes over it or shallow, incomplete understanding.

[David Jamieson]

shaolin do is like american kempo-karate

the forms that share the names of teh forms from other system are upon viewing not actually the legit forms. tiger/crane is so far removed from the actual tiger crane in frame, shape, movement...well, everything. It is tough not to venture the guess that this is just haphazardly slapped togethr to get the widest range of wants of the student covered.

'i want to learn shaolin' - 'ok we got that'

'i want to learn hung ga' - oh we got that too!

'I want to learn the northern preying mantis' - it's in there!

When there used to be an abundance of videos of sd forms available for viewing, it was a whole lot easier to point out the erroneousness of them and there disconnect from the principles and flow of the martial arts that they were claimed to have been drawn from.

having said all that, i don't think learnin sd is any worse than learning any form of urban martial arts practice. It's not like 99.999 percent of the people practicing martial arts out there are actually gonna stick with it long enough to start to form their own kungfu inside themselves with their martial practice.

I would think that someone who diligently trains in sd for 20 years will be proficient in sd. For what that is worth, it's worth something to them.

I don't think sin should be making so many stories about origins though. It's just embarassing to him and his organization and causes 1000+post threads all over the internet that refute him into the ground.

why doesn't his brother make any of the incredible claims that sin the does

anyway, just thought i'd add more to this post line. It's like coming back for secondS!

[Judge Pen]

why doesn't his brother make any of the incredible claims that sin the does



Other than the number of forms, his brother makes the same lineage claims as GM Sin The. Su Kong, the multiple shaolin temples, etc. Both acknowledge that there were more teachers than just Ie Chang Ming that taught them this material. Some of SD's forms came from Indonesia recently, so SD is akin to whatever is being taught there. My own personal belief is that the lineage of Su Kong was related to them by Ie Chang Ming (it's truth was never questioned by them--I don't believe that Sin and Hiang fabricated Su Kong to explain this to Americans, there was no need--In Kentucky at that time, martial arts were very sparse; so whether Su Kong was real, a myth, or based in reality to some degree, he was a story related to the brothers by their teacher and that was good enough for them).

Ie Chang Ming taught what he knew as well as the other teachers there. Thus, they were taught a diversified group of material in Indonesia. Then they taught in Kentucky and you get the two brothers teaching a wide array of material, but teaching it with their spin. From there, it began to take on a different flavor based upon the interpretations of the The brothers and the senior students. Sd has been further interpreted by the teachers of it that have followed so you can see major differences from schools to schools.

In short, SD is what it is, but I find value in it and I can apply it in a martial context. I respect my teachers for the effort and knowledge they have given to me and I respect their teachers for teaching them. I know there is a link to CMA and even shaolin (as many schools of different martial arts can accurately claim to some degree). It's difference make it unique, but you can identify the core concepts and fundamentals in the arts that are represented.

I see several other schools, even those with well-respected teachers and lineages, fall victim to the same problems that SD is accused of: Too many forms. Mixing material. Shoddy instruction. Some of them even have highly questionable claims in their history. They are not as vilified as SD for a number of reasons. One of the main ones, imo, is that SD took on the outer-trappings of a Japanese art which is offensive to many Chinese people. There are other reasons, but I think that is an underlying issue with SD and CMA.

[BM2]

anyway, just thought i'd add more to this post line. It's like coming back for secondS!

Not me, I'm just lurking waiting to be the first to post on the 100th page as GT beat everyone to the 1000th post :mad:

FWIW, I think it is strange that some in SD get all worked up because a few schools wear something other than a gi. If it doesn't matter to the head of the system, it shouldn't either to anyone else. IMHO, it is how a person performs in class that is more important than what they are wearing.

[The Willow Sword]

There is something that i keep reading and hearing, and it is throughout history from master to master.

in a nutshell what i read is " Keep it simple". I could elaborate for days about what that actually means within the context of martial arts and combat and such. But i am going to trust that MOST here will really understand what that term really means.

It is my opinion that if you have such a broad array of "forms" or "systems" in your psyche, and you try to organize and put to some order all this "information" so as to "preserve" an art or "keep it going",, you cease to be what i would call a martial artist and a fighter and you then become a "historian" and an academic.
whether the forms and systems be made up or traditional, whether they stem from anything that is "real" or "fabricated" whether they come from a standpoint of moneymaking or ego. the fact remains that TMI(too much info) is detremental to the one who truly wishes to make a fighting system "SOLID" and "MASTERED"(in my opinion).

its also tough when schools like SD,who have TMI to offer and in my opinion no real mastery in ANY of it,try to teach all this info and it therefore becomes fragmented, jumbled, and for lack of a better term "a mess". Sure one can say that we can derive what we need from all of this info to createsomething that works for us (like a the salad bar at the golden corral resteraunt:D )
however i feel that when it really comes down to it. we all resort to the "simple things" and we keep things simple.
remember the old saying "it is better to master only a few techniques than to know a whole lot of techniques and not have mastered any of them."

peas and wub,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

its also tough when schools like SD,who have TMI to offer and in my opinion no real mastery in ANY of it,try to teach all this info and it therefore becomes fragmented, jumbled, and for lack of a better term "a mess". Sure one can say that we can derive what we need from all of this info to createsomething that works for us (like a the salad bar at the golden corral resteraunt:D )
however i feel that when it really comes down to it. we all resort to the "simple things" and we keep things simple.
remember the old saying "it is better to master only a few techniques than to know a whole lot of techniques and not have mastered any of them."

Would you not agree that SD is not the only school that professes to be CMA that is guilty of this? Several schools will teach a great weight of material in a short amount of time (with varying degrees of success in the quality of the instruction). No, that is a real criticism of SD, but it's not the primary reason SD is vilified among many on these boards and in the CMA community.

[Ou Ji]

Lot's of good posts and thoughts from all but my question is - why force your beliefs on others?

If they want to learn a bizzillion forms and styles then that's their business. You want simplicity then go for it. I'm totally with you on that idea. I already have more than i can keep up with plus it all jumbles together for me, I have trouble keeping styles seperate.

If SD is a crappy style with crappy sets then don't learn any of it and leave it to the guys that want that stuff.

If they want to play Hsing Yi without ever getting the essence of it then that's fine. If they can find a martial use for what they learn then that's fine too, even if it isn't exactly right. If it works for them it's good.

Just my latest small contribution to the 100 page thread.

[Golden Tiger]

Lot's of good posts and thoughts from all but my question is - why force your beliefs on others?


Mainly because they figured out a long time ago that there were some us on here and that we would agrue with them. No harm, No foul.


Not me, I'm just lurking waiting to be the first to post on the 100th page as GT beat everyone to the 1000th post


I am givin her all she's got captin... or are you saying that I post too much?


FWIW, I think it is strange that some in SD get all worked up because a few schools wear something other than a gi. If it doesn't matter to the head of the system, it shouldn't either to anyone else. IMHO, it is how a person performs in class that is more important than what they are wearing.


Where the heck did that come from? They told you that you might have flaskback's didn't they? But nooooo, it was just a lil dot on a piece of paper after all..



TWS...who woke you up?

[kwaichang]

Good thought OU Ji But there are those whose soul purpose in life is to have someone agree with them. Well I do what I do and if it makes me a better person and if I can show Compassion and respect to others I am a better person for it, that is what SD does for me. Whether you believe learning 17 forms as is in ShotoKan or 100 forms in SD is no matter . As bruce Lee said if it helps you in a fight then it is Good, I do what I do I have trained for 35 years I love martial arts and I read and contribute to this thread because in a glimmer of hope something good might come of something that is said either by me or someone else but I see people trying to rationalize what they think by trying to get others to agree with them. I trained hard last night every punch felt good my lungs were burning from fatigue and when I was done I felt pain and pleasure at the same time. You could prove to me with out a doubt that SD is something else but I dont care cause I have punched in Boxing, Shoto Kan , Wado , Hung Gar, White Crane Yoshukai and even Aikido and believe me the punches in SD are the same as those in other systems. So argue about history or about lineage or number of forms but I cont to punch and kick and throw and develope the force called Chi or Ki . Peace to you all for having such analytical and inquisitive minds I pity us all KC

[cbishop]

....cause I have punched in Boxing, Shoto Kan , Wado , Hung Gar, White Crane Yoshukai and even Aikido and believe me the punches in SD are the same as those in other systems...

wow!! you practiced all those systems?? that's amazing.. and to think that
they all punch the same way. maybe they should just give up on having
specialized techniques and training methods and form one great big
organization. they could call it 'TAI KWON LEAP'.

wait a minute.. i remember now. muhammed ali DOES punch EXACTLY like
a Lam family Hung Ga practicioner. they're gonna be p!ssed when they
find out he's learned the secret of the iron bridging technique.

[Lohanhero]

there was a quote on another site on the bottom of someones posts. i think it is very good in heart. goes somthing like...

"Those that fight, fight. those that watch criticize."

please though, dont get stuck on single words.

[The Willow Sword]

JP.
Yes i do agree that there are many schools that teach TMI(hehe my new term for the rest of the year) and yes i know that this is not the ONLY reason that SD is ridiculed here. why would i even NEED to go into that which has already been established and re-established for longer than most here have trained or started martial arts?

TWS who woke you up?

haha well i am currently in KY right now overseeing some family buisness and since i dont have access to a computer i am using a public library computer. so i am filling in time here and lookin at the forums.

My anger at certain SD peeps has faded in to memory and from my last bitter but humourous post in this long thread concluded all the "venting" that i am going to do on the subject. (the post where i wrote the script for "SD the Musical"

so i thought i would offer up some actual insights and more rational opinions.

forever and always,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

Tae Kwon Leap is also known as Free style Martial arts or American Karate. I meant to say the source of power is basically the same in most arenas of punching unless they are thrusting instead of striking techniques KC:o

[Ou Ji]

I'll probably get a lot of crap for this BUT ......

There are only so many ways to throw a solid straight punch. Each style has slight variations but for the most part a punch is a punch.

And since I've never been jacked up by a slight variation it really doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

3 more pages to go!!!

[kwaichang]

Please expound on the way / s to throw a straight punch and while you are at it please tell us about circular or hook punches as well. KC:)

[kwaichang]

What ever happened to Fred Sanford ??? KC:cool:

[gungfujosh]

I know this thread has been going on for a while, I just want to sy I have trained with Grand Master Sin The and the Elder Masters the Swords and I have been in martial arts for a while. I really love the school and the systems, I know the stories of the liniage and it can be viewed in the Chinese Shao-lin Center websites. I personally believe them, and Grandmaster The also has a book. Regarding the number of forms--there really are a lot.
I have studied at various schools, Karate, Aikido and I was a state ranked wrestler in NY, and the Chinese Shao-lin Center is the place I will be going for the rest of my days (and nights [lotta forms]).
Thanks
:)

[Radhnoti]

I can point out one inconsistency in the book off the top of my head. It states clearly that GM Ie chose to name his system shaolin-do and that this was the name in Indonesia.
I've spoken with people who say they were there when the name shaolin-do was chosen...in Kentucky. I believe we have at least one person posting on THIS thread who was there (GT?).
I'm not saying, "Oh, oh he lied!" Just that the book was probably MOSTLY written by Master Halladay, the native English speaker. So, you can't really say the book is an irrefutable source for the history...

[BM2]

Although I rarely see him anymore, I know one of the first students of Shao-Lin Do. He quit in or about 1980. He is older than Master Sin and remembers when M. Leonard walked into class around '68(?). I state this because I asked him just this summer what Master Sin told them they were doing and he replied " It was always Shao-Lin Do."
I may be going out on a limb here, but GT may laugh at all "What I heard (fill in the blank) say...".
For myself, I don't like putting someone's name on the forum but since it was only used to date when this person was in Shao Lin Do and not about them, I hope that Masters Sin and Bill over look it.

EDIT: M. James R. Halladay wrote the November 1987 issue of Inside Kung Fu and it has a painting of M. Hiang standing behind M. Ie but the article says it is M. Sin. This may be the reason so many SD web sites has that wrong.

[Golden Tiger]

I can point out one inconsistency in the book off the top of my head. It states clearly that GM Ie chose to name his system shaolin-do and that this was the name in Indonesia.
I've spoken with people who say they were there when the name shaolin-do was chosen...in Kentucky. I believe we have at least one person posting on THIS thread who was there (GT?).



I think that the actual name of Ie's school was not Shaolin-Do but that was the name given to the system. I had Master Sin's certificate translated once upon a time and the school was more similar to what Hiang calls his now. (can't remember the exact name at the moment)

As for what I remembered concerning when the system started being called SD, I might be off there. What I seem to remember is that around the late 80's or early 90's, most if not all the schools were calling themselves something different. (Chinese Center for Martial Arts, Sin The Karate Club, xyz Karate, CSC, etc.) When the SDA was trying to get started and Master Sin thought the movie was going to be made, it was decided that all the schools would have Shaolin-Do some where in the name. The hand patch was made and there was even going to be an "offical" sign that everyone would use. I might even still have the letter and the mock up's for it. This was fine and dandy for about a day of course and it never came to be.

Now, I might be remembering all this completely wrong but it seems the way it was. But then again it was 15 or so years ago and at the time, I didn't tell myself to remember it exactly so that years from then I would have to give a deposition on it.

[wingsandsword]

As someone who lives in Central Kentucky and has been interested in Martial arts for a long time, I've had plenty of dealings with Shaolin-Do, and I haven't been impressed with them so far.

My first encounter with Shaolin-Do came when I was very young, about 6 or 7. I had problems with bullies at school, and even though I tried to run from them, there were times when being able to defend myself would be useful. My parents enrolled me in the only school in the small town we lived in at the time (circa 1984) and I started being taught "Shaolin-Do Karate", and fairly quickly earned my Yellow Belt. Even at the time I had my doubts about the quality of the testing, since several dozen kids were all being tested at once in a big gymnasium with him looking on, how could he really evaluate each of us from a short test viewing dozens of us at a time? Of course, the movie The Karate Kid came out not long thereafter, and loads of kids wanted to study martial arts. However, my own studies kinda bogged down, what I was being taught wasn't useful at all against an aggressor, it was almost all elaborate Kata that had to be memorized exactly, not very useful when you're trying to learn things you may need tomorrow to protect yourself. Between having great difficulty in remembering these intricate patterns at the age of 7 and very little of what I was learning was actually practical in self-defense, I stopped taking Shaolin-Do. Interestingly enough, it was always referred to as "Karate" and never as "Kung Fu" and always talked about as being Japanese in origin, not Chinese.

In fall of 1999, I was at the University of Kentucky getting my major in History. One of my friends and classmates was a student of Sin The and arranged with the professor for him to give a guest lecture in a class on the history of China. He came and gave a lecture on how Christianity is just an offshoot of Buddhism because the missing years of Christ's life in the Bible were where he travelled to China and learned Kung Fu and studied Buddhism and Taoism, and the proper way to be more Christlike is to study Kung Fu (followed by a brief autobiography and mentioning he runs a Kung Fu school in Lexington). At the end of the lecture when he left, Dr. Stapleton (Professor of History at UK, specializing in Chinese History) gave a big chagrined disclaimer that just about nothing he said had any academic weight or proof, and she looked a little embarrased that she'd given up a session of her class to somebody who came in and told what was essentially a thinly veiled recruiting speech with extremely dubious pseudohistory. The second time I'd dealt with Sin The and Shaolin-Do was not impressive. I noted that he had gone from teaching "Karate" to "Kung Fu".

The third time I encountered Shaolin-Do was a few years later. I was engaged to a girl (we later broke up), and after being with her for many months, she proudly tells me she just got her 1st Degree Black Belt in Shaolin-Do. I knew vaguel that she practiced martial arts (she rarely talked about it, but had mentioned it a few times). She was so excited, believing she was now invincible on the streets. I had my doubts, and I tried to politely let her know that, but she wanted to prove how good she was, so she challenged me to a sparring match. Now with only a 5th Kyu, she couldn't lay a hand on me: her moves were sloppy and uncoordinated, her strikes unfocused, and she seemed to have a library of preprogrammed responses to attacks, that once you learned them she couldn't do a thing to stop you. She never laid a hand on me, and after getting the better of her many times, she frustratedly quit. This was a brand new, just tested black belt in Shaolin-Do, and I, (at the time) a novice 5th Kyu with only 9 months of training could easily best her?

A fourth time was when students of Shaolin-Do joined the dojo where I now study learning another art. Virtually all the Shaolin-Do students we met had one of two problems, they were utterly unwilling to learn new ways to do things, or they were remarkably arrogant about their own skill. Some were prideful of their black belts in Shaolin-Do and even though they wanted to learn another art, they couldn't seem to understand that things were taught differently, so the exact same stances, forms, and moves just cannot be repeated rote and assume that another art will grant a belt (even if they try and explain to the instructor that it's the "original Shaolin art", as if the instructors will change the curriculm to reflect what they say, even if the art they are learning does not claim to be Kung Fu or Shaolin in heritage), and the others made horrible uke, and treated every practice like it was a sparring match and were very aggressive and confrontational. After 4 years of study in another art, and having seen a dozen Shaolin-Do practitioners come to our Dojo for further study, they all seem to have serious attitude problems about aggression and the inherent superiority of their art. I wondered why they were studying another art if Shaolin-Do is so superior, I asked one and apparently he wanted to have belts in multiple arts, so he could claim having black belts in multiple arts, and figured since he knew "true Shaolin" he could easily get a Black Belt in any other art. The highest I ever saw a Shaolin-Do practitioner get in another art was 4th Kyu, and that was only after he gave up Shaolin-Do to study our art (and he was doing well before he had to move away).

After all I've seen, living in and around Lexington for a quarter century around many practitioners of Shaolin-Do, I've been distinctly unimpressed by the quality of their instruction and their teaching.

[kwaichang]

So what we have here is someone who has not told us what he studies and a lecturer who may or may not know dates as well as history. What exactly does it take to impress you?? Give us your history so we can asess whether your opinion is viable. Also just because you are around an area does not make you an all knowing individual. KC:eek:

[sean_stonehart]

Wings... you may want to specify :: 1) your training experience and, 2) who the guest speaker was.

[wingsandsword]

Wings... you may want to specify :: 1) your training experience and, 2) who the guest speaker was.
1. Besides my short period with Shaolin-Do when I was young, I've been training in Kiyojute Ryu Kempo off and on since 1998, now holding 3rd Kyu, preparing to test for 2nd Kyu. Because of various interruptions, I've spent a total of about 3 years actually practicing the arts. I am recieving my BA in History this semester from the University of Kentucky (with a focus in Asian History and a senior thesis on the history of the Martial Arts). Thus, I do not claim to be a master or expert in the practice or history of martial arts, just an enthusiast who practices and studies regularly and was making a statement based entirely on my personal experiences.

2. Sin The was the guest speaker, I should have made that clearer. It was in a HIS 296: East Asia until 1800 class in the Fall 1999 semester at the University of Kentucky, taught by Dr. Kristen Stapleton where he asserted that the missing years of Christ's life were spent in China studying Kung Fu and learning Buddhism and Taoism, which he took back to Israel and turned into the creation of Christianity.

I wasn't claiming to be an all knowing individual, I was stating that as a martial arts enthusiast in the city where Sin The teaches and Shaolin Do is centered out of, of all the times I've been encountered them I've been unimpressed. I was stating my opinion and the experiences that lead to this impression.

Also, on further reflection, I should not say that every Shaolin-Do practitioner made a poor student when they went to another dojo, I can now think of two that did quite fine, but it was a trend I distinctly noted.

The reason I posted here was as a result of a discussion with a friend (offline) about relative worth of training and belts of various schools, and how I was skeptical of the value of training of some schools. Shaolin-Do came to mind, and I searched the web for a discussion of the validity and merits of Shaolin-Do and came to this message board and saw a lively discussion on the issue. I mean no flames or hostility, merely to contribute.

If what I've said is too unwelcome, I won't participate anymore, but I did want to see the opinions of others as to the merits of Shaolin-Do and share my own opinions and experiences.

(I have edited this post to provide more information and clarify my statements)

[BM2]

I smell a hundred pages coming up :rolleyes: !
Whoa, should I be surprised that you say that the reason you are here is research? Anyway, you have contributed that it was indeed called Shao-Lin Do when you started in the '80s.
Now about arrogant SD students, what style doesn't have them? As for egos go, hey I got my black belt long enough ago that I don't wear it any more. It started looking bad. I don't care what others think about belts, some wash theirs just to make it look old. They care what others think about them as " Wow! you got a cool belt!" Just cause it is becoming frayed. This is not a story, the second time someone commented to me in the postive about how my belt looked, I bought a new one. Some may have setimental feelings about theirs and still wear the original. I just don't have any attachment to it.
I will only relate to myslelf for as I grow older I try not to make judgements about groups of people or styles anymore, but I do. Oh well.
I do bjj too. I had no problem putting on a white belt. Really was not interested in getting rank in bjj either, surely wasn't thinking that I was going to be a multi-black belt. Ha. If I wanted that I would try to get it in something easier such as karate ;)
This Saturday after class was over, my instructor called me forward and told me to take off my white belt. He tied my new belt on, no testing or fees.
I think that the instructor and students think that what they do is the best style around. They believe in themselves. I hope that if anyone asks them about SD students they will say positive things about them after the disclaimer of only knowing me:p .
You see I don't think it is fair to say SD students are all arrogant or make any other blank statements of any group. It is no different to say "Hey I not a bigot I can think of one...no now that I think about it I remember two who are not that bad, even friends..almost with them."

[Golden Tiger]

He came and gave a lecture on how Christianity is just an offshoot of Buddhism because the missing years of Christ's life in the Bible were where he travelled to China and learned Kung Fu and studied Buddhism and Taoism, and the proper way to be more Christlike is to study Kung Fu

Well, he has been accused of everything else, I guess being an evangelist was all that was left. Amazing, I have known the man personally for over 30 years, sat around his house, drove him to different schools, taken numerous classes with him and yet I couldn't tell you his religious beliefs.


and fairly quickly earned my Yellow Belt...........Between having great difficulty in remembering these intricate patterns at the age of 7 and very little of what I was learning was actually practical in self-defense, I stopped taking Shaolin-Do.

So you were 7 years old and had 3-4 months experience and were able to decide this?

I smell a hundred pages coming up !

And it shall be mine!!!!

This Saturday after class was over, my instructor called me forward and told me to take off my white belt. He tied my new belt on, no testing or fees.

Congrats!!!!!:D

[kwaichang]

In 1974 I was taking Kung Fu from an instructor he had 3 belts , yes belts , not sashes. I wore a white belt for 2.5 years then a brown belt for 7 at that time I was tested and promoted to Black Belt it was Kung Fu it was a belt and I earned it. In JJ there are no pre arranged forms or katas, so no test, as in Kung Fu where there are numerous techniques / forms. A testing fee pays for the time required to watch a student. A consultant charges for his time why not a GM.
I too have been around GMT for approx 14 years and do not know his religous affiliation.
I have heard the same theory about the missing years of Christ.
I took SD in 1981 from a Black Belt named Ed Spain GMT remembers him as I have asked him, and it was called SD then. Yhyought I would offer an opinion and thought here. KC

[BM2]

What GT? You didn't know about the time shares he was selling ala Jim Baker?As for religion, there are two times I recall M. Sin even bringing it up. Once was in breathing and meditation class. Some minister had a problem with his members doing meditation and M. Sin's opinion was the guy just didn't understand it. And one time he said something about what happend while driving his family to church. You see he had never said anything about what he belived and I thought that he was a Christian after that but I still don't know for certain.
GT, thanks for the congrats but I think it meant more for the instructor than for me. He must be very proud of himself as thinking of me as his greatest challenge. There had to be times where he may of just about gave up on himself as to thinking wither or not he could get me to the next belt level.:p

[Judge Pen]

Where to start?

I know several arrogant black belts/sashes that cant' fight their way out of a wet paper-bag. Some are SD and some aren't. It's a product of commercialized training in martial arts. Sadly, I've seen people pass tests that should fail because the teacher wanted to keep them as a student. To pin these types of issues just on SD is a bit naive (or disingenuous, but I feel from your perspective you haven't a lot of experience outside of central Kentucky). Using your old GF as an example is not authoritative. I sparred a 2nd degree black belt in TKD when I was a green sash in SD and had no problem cutting the angles off of his kicks and overwhelming him with hand techniques. He was 30 and I was 16. Does that make SD more valid? Does that make TKD less valid? Nope, it means I had the intent to apply what I was taught in a free-sparring session. It was as much a product of the individuals as their training. Such is martial arts in general.

Karate and kung fu. You should go back and read these threads, this part of SD history has been discussed ad nauseaum. For what it is worth, when I started SD in 1989 (14 years old) my teacher called it karate but during the first lesson told us it was kung fu and was only called karate because of the whole Indonesian connection that has been debated endlessly. My point is that from the beginning, it's quirky history and the reason for the gis and the "karate" was explained in my first lesson. Heck, most people I meet now will ask me how my karate classes are coming even though I tell them I am practicing kung fu.

Christianity and Buddhism. I've heard that speculation about Christ traveling to the orient via the silk-trading routes and being exposed to Buddhism from various academic sources and all of them acknowledge that there's no historical verification of it; it's only speculative based upon the missing documented years in Christ's life, the location of various trade-routes during that period, and the obvious similarities in Christ's moral teachings to Buddha's own teachings. (Never heard of Christ doing Kung fu though :D ).

SD isn't for everyone and many people that do SD don't represent it well. However, these problems are broader than SD and are found in most if not all MA schools that go beyond small groups of closed door students. As soon as money and marketing are mixed with martial arts, then these problems seem to start to creep into a martial arts school.

[kwaichang]

There is a part of the Bible that speaks of Christ moving through a croud of people who were trying to subdue him and he escaped w/o being touched as it were perhaps from martial arts training. Looked for they cannot be seen. Felt for they cannot be touched? I think it was in 1st Peter KC

[MasterKiller]

It only took us 98 pages to get to the point of this thread: Jesus was a Shaolin-Do ninja.

[Judge Pen]

Jesus was a Shaolin-Do ninja.

If it weren't blasphemy, then it would be signature worthy.

[wingsandsword]

So you were 7 years old and had 3-4 months experience and were able to decide this?Well, I started taking karate (or Kung Fu, or whatever it was) because I needed to learn to defend myself on the schoolyard.

I was the target of several bullies, and the teachers were completely unhelpful and fond of turning a blind eye to schoolyard scuffles. While I typically ran from fights, I did occasionally get cornered or caught, and wanted some instruction on how to fight when I had no choice but to fight.

After a half year in class, it was clear I wasn't being taught much in a self-defense context, asking my instructors for teaching on what to do in a certain circumstance would be answered with a reminder to practice the same long, drawn out formalized kata, and that would teach me to defend myself, and to use those when I got into a fight (that got my ass kicked the one time I tried to use a preset kata in an actual fight like my instructor told me to). There was some punching and kicking, and sparring, shown, but it was clearly deemphasized in favor of choreographed kata.

So, I (and my parents) felt we were able to come to the conclusion that the money they were paying for my instruction was a waste, since after six months of instruction I had very little in the way of actual defensive techniques to show for it.

This wasn't a decision on whether it was a legitimate successor to the Shaolin Temple, or the training lineage of Sin The, it was the decision that this training was being very unhelpful from the point of view of somebody who needed to learn self defense now, not years down the line. Someone who needed to know how to block and how to punch and how to dodge, not how to do various Long Kata. Now, it may well be that there was more emphasis on self defense at higher levels, or my instructor was not enthused at showing a young child how to fight instead of preformed kata, but I did qualify that this was my own anecdotal experiences.

[Judge Pen]

After a half year in class, it was clear I wasn't being taught much in a self-defense context, asking my instructors for teaching on what to do in a certain circumstance would be answered with a reminder to practice the same long, drawn out formalized kata, and that would teach me to defend myself, and to use those when I got into a fight (that got my ass kicked the one time I tried to use a preset kata in an actual fight like my instructor told me to). There was some punching and kicking, and sparring, shown, but it was clearly deemphasized in favor of choreographed kata.

You had some bad instruction. Forms have their place, but (especially with children) you need to drill the fundamentals and self-defense techniques as much if not more than the forms.

[Golden Tiger]

Someone who needed to know how to block and how to punch and how to dodge, not how to do various Long Kata.

Its a shame that you didn't stay a week or two longer because the first two moves in the first long form that you learn does just that...rather effectively I might add. Then the 8th and 9th move would be very useful in dodging a punch or a kick then striking the evil b@st@rd trying to hurt you. Just a few more weeks and your whole outlook on SD might have changed.....wow.

asking my instructors for teaching on what to do in a certain circumstance would be answered with a reminder to practice the same long, drawn out formalized kata, and that would teach me to defend myself, and to use those when I got into a fight

I have no idea who was teaching you but I personally would have been careful about a 7 year old coming to me wanting to learn to fight. Aside from the BS that would come back in the event that you went out and beat someone up (been on the wrong end of a student winning a fight and the losers lawyer asking just what deadly things I taught him ..duh) a 7 year old is too young IMO to be learning MA's in the first place.

And since you mentioned it, did you go and find another school that taught you (at 7) how not to get beat up in the first 6 months?


Hmm....JC was a SD ninja...sounds good to me!

[wingsandsword]

I have no idea who was teaching you but I personally would have been careful about a 7 year old coming to me wanting to learn to fight. Aside from the BS that would come back in the event that you went out and beat someone up (been on the wrong end of a student winning a fight and the losers lawyer asking just what deadly things I taught him ..duh) a 7 year old is too young IMO to be learning MA's in the first place. Well, this was a different era. This was 20+ years ago in a small town in rural Kentucky. This was long before Zero Tolerance policies, and there was the attitude that schoolyard scuffles happen and it's just "boys being boys", and lawsuits over something like this would have been unheard of. Nowadays things are quite different with a more litigious atmosphere and much less tolerance for fights at school.

Also, while 7 might be too young for some aspects of MA, basic blocking/dodging/breakfalls/tumbling skills could easily be learned at that age and would be most appropriate to teach to a young one. Teaching them empty hand or foot techniques would have to be done carefully, with strong warnings about not abusing the teaching and avoiding a fight when possible instead of using violence, but with proper guidance and a sufficiently mature child I think it is fully possible.

And since you mentioned it, did you go and find another school that taught you (at 7) how not to get beat up in the first 6 months?Not at age 7, I gave up on MA until I got to college. Then I went to a few months of classes in several clubs and local dojo, trying out Judo, Aikido, Kendo, and Tae Kwon Do each for several months before setting in with the Kempo school I attend, which I stuck with because of it's heavy emphasis on practical self defense and lack of ritualized forms and the philosophy and style of that school works well for me personally. I've seen children of the age of 7 learning in dojo, and learning well, but it does require a very skilled and patient instructor and a reasonably mature child who can learn the art at such an age, but it is certainly possible.

[The Willow Sword]

Man im not EVEN gonna comment about pages 97-98.:rolleyes:

BM2: Congrats on your rank advancement. :)


Always,,TWS

[BM2]

LOL, Man oh man! I don't know what to say:confused: Kinda makes me wonder what the next 100 pages will be like :p
Just when you think it is safe to step into this thread:eek:
Thanks TWS.

[Golden Tiger]

Kinda makes me wonder what the next 100 pages will be like.
Just when you think it is safe to step into this thread

Be afraid...be very afraid...

[sean_stonehart]

ooooh ooooh ooooh Mr Kottah Mr Kottah Mr Kottah ...

99 & counting... Right at it!

[Judge Pen]

Am I that computer ignorant or do you guys have a ton of people on your ignore list? My computer shows this thread to be 148 pages long already. :eek:

[Golden Tiger]

Am I that computer ignorant or do you guys have a ton of people on your ignore list? My computer shows this thread to be 148 pages long already. :eek:

Probably a little of both....:p

Yours was the 4th post on page 99....

[MasterKiller]

Am I that computer ignorant or do you guys have a ton of people on your ignore list? My computer shows this thread to be 148 pages long already. :eek:
It depends on your profile settings. You probably have the display-posts-per-page set lower than everyone else.

[wdl]

wow, I've been busy all fall, and thank God that means I don't have as much time to sit around and waste away in front of my PC. Today however, I've got alittle, and so I go to browsing forums for the first time in months and low and behold, this thread is still going? WTF?!?!?!

-Will

[wdl]

(Never heard of Christ doing Kung fu though :D ).


JP: That explains how he knew to beat his plow into a sword and why the money changers got screw'd, blue'd and tatoo'd. :D


-Will

[Golden Tiger]

wow, I've been busy all fall, and thank God that means I don't have as much time to sit around and waste away in front of my PC. Today however, I've got alittle, and so I go to browsing forums for the first time in months and low and behold, this thread is still going? WTF?!?!?!

-Will

Welcome back wdl. Yep, just like the energizer bunny, it keeps going and going.

So, Bm2...are we there yet?

[Golden Tiger]

How about now???:eek:

[Golden Tiger]

Or now???? dang it... 100 shall be mine!!!!

[sean_stonehart]

Nope not yet... :p

[Ou Ji]

So, what does the first to 100 win?

[lxtruong]

First to 100 wins eternal fame and fortune...or something.

[Judge Pen]

I was the first to 100. Just change your computer settings and you can be on page 149 like me.

[MasterKiller]

Actually, I deleted like 25 of my posts, so it should've been there by now anyway. I meddle much too much.

[Ou Ji]

Funny thing is that 3 months after this thread is dead and gone someone new will come along and start a thread asking if Shaolin-Do is for real.

[Judge Pen]

I meddle much too much.

Really? I wouldn't have guessed that about you. :D

[Judge Pen]

Funny thing is that 3 months after this thread is dead and gone someone new will come along and start a thread asking if Shaolin-Do is for real.

Ain't that the truth.

[BM2]

It depends on what your definition of "Is" is :p

[BentMonk]

Well here we are at page 100! IMO SD is as real as you make it. This is the same in any pursuit in life. Over the top folklore and poor marketing aside, SD is a good MA. Unfortunately due to the large amount of material taught out, and the rush of some SD practitioners to become instructors it has fallen victim to a human flaw, lack of patience. To be genuinely good at anything requires the patience to practice deligently. In the rush to learn a new form, the details are overlooked in what is already known. Add someone teaching others things they do not fully understand themselves to this, and you have a recipe for mediocrity. When faced with a vast amount of knowledge, keep it simple. Focus on perfecting the aspects that you understand and do well. You may not learn all there is, but what you know, and in turn teach, will be much more valuable. "I do not fear the 10,000 techniques you have practiced once. I fear the one technique you have practiced 10,000 times." Peace & Happy Training To All. :D

[Golden Tiger]

Well that just sucks!!! Oh well....

Thought that I would relate something I watched lastnight that even with all the doubt surrounding SD, made me feel pretty good about SD and M. Sin.

A friend sent me a tape of a Tai Chi series shown on some station out of Canada featuring GM. Shou-Yu Liang (looked him up, seems to be a big dog from what I can tell). He was teaching Yang 24 and doing some Chi Gong. The form looked just like what I learned but that wasn't the interesting part. The Chi Gong that he was explaining was what did it. As he did the exercise, he also called out the points and meridians that needed to be hit and the visualization of doing so. The interesting part (to me anyway) was that everything he mentioned, I had learned about 20 years or so ago from SD and M. ST. Same names, same flow, same everything. Our exercises might have been called something different (I didn't take the time to check my old notes) but every exercise he did, I was able to call out the path and point 2 steps ahead of him.

To most, this story will mean nothing more than me trying to make it to post 1500, but to me, it really meant a lot. Regardless of my relentless defense of SD, I too from time to time wonder about SD. Even the most confident person will have doubts if all they ever hear is negative comments. But after watching that show and seeing that what this person was teaching was exactly what I had learned a long long time ago (with a lot more detail ;) , I think it will be enough for me to keep up the fight for another 100 pages.

So, in my ever so humble opinion, the question posed for this thread was once again answered....and the answer was a very loud YES:D

[Judge Pen]

I think BentMonk hit the nail on the head. His observations and the obvious offense many Chinese people take to the Japanese trappings are the main objections to SD.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Is sin te, good ? I mean forget all this mumbo jumbo about shaolin do and forms and stuff about being kosher, the people who follow shaolin do, would you say sin the could haul some ass ? Or is he just a dictionary of moves and forms and techniques ?

[Judge Pen]

Is sin te, good ? I mean forget all this mumbo jumbo about shaolin do and forms and stuff about being kosher, the people who follow shaolin do, would you say sin the could haul some ass ? Or is he just a dictionary of moves and forms and techniques ?

From my own personal observation, and not relying upon the ancedotal stories I hear from my teachers, his form is good but not great. Having said that, I can see efficiency in movement and power behind his movement. He is quick and flexible and powerful. The reason I say that his form is not great is that his stances are not knee high-level throughout the form like my teacher's stances. It's hard for me to comment on the flow as I've not seen him do that many forms from start to finish. I have seen him do a form and was amazed at how fast his hands were moving with intent and purpose. Most of the time he does something in front of someone he walks through the form so you can't base anything off of that.

Also, the only time I have personally observed him move he was over 60 years of age so I can forgive him on his stances. Most masters I see move at his age don't do so with the flair and stance discipline that they did when younger.

[Golden Tiger]

Is sin te, good ? I mean forget all this mumbo jumbo about shaolin do and forms and stuff about being kosher, the people who follow shaolin do, would you say sin the could haul some ass ? Or is he just a dictionary of moves and forms and techniques ?

I would have to agree with JP on this also. Form wise, as in doing it for a demo or what ever, he has never been what I would refer to as "pretty". I think that could also explain the lack of "TCMA" look to our forms and stances. The one exception would have to be when he does or teaches Tai Chi. Very nice...very nice indeed.

But, he has always impressed me with watching how he is able to generate power and snap when he does the forms. And although I have never sparred him personally, I have been thrown around by him and he is quiet strong and able to send you to the ground with minimal effort.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Cool, thanks. I find it quite unfortunate that people take the p1ss out of shaolin do so much.
If it was say a shoot off of x karate or y hung gar or z wing chun or any other famous group of schools.
It wouldnt get so much stick and he could just as easily be the gm of such a style from what youve said.

Dont get me wrong i poke at the whole dogboy thing too ! But its a shame to have the style branded along with ppl like ashida kim who takes the **** out of people willingly.

I reckon personally if the techniques and applications are sound its all good and also if you spar beyond that. Style vs style conversations are a load of boll0cks

[JuJitsuJoe]

From what I have been told his fighting ability was never questioned. He is pretty old now so you cant expect him to be like he was when he was 20.

[The Willow Sword]

I know this pain (I know this pain, I know this pain (echo))
Why do lock yourself up in these chains? (these chains, these chains (echo))
No one can change your life except for you
Don't ever let anyone step all over you
Just open your heart and your mind, mmm
Is it really fair to feel this way inside?

Chorus

Ooh some day somebody's gonna make you want to
Turn around and say goodbye
Until then baby are you going to let them
Hold you down and make you cry
Don't you know?
Don't you know, know, things can change
Things'll go your way
If you hoooollllld oooon for one more day
Can you hold on for one more day
Things'll go your way
Hold on for one more day (one more day)

Don't you know things can change
Things'll go your way
If you hold on for one more day
Can you hold on
Can you hold on
Mmm... Can you hold on baby
Won't you tell me now
Hold on for one more day
Cause it's gonna go away

Don't you know things can change
Things'll go your way
If you hold on for one more day yeah
Can't you change it this time
Make up your mind
Hold on Hold on
Hold on Hold on, baby hold on
Turn around, Just turn around baby
Hold on for one more day, Cause
It's gonna go your way... :D

[Royal Dragon]

SD may all be fine and dandy, but it still ain't what it's portrayed to be, and THAT is what real TCMA players have a beef with.

[Golden Tiger]

SD may all be fine and dandy, but it still ain't what it's portrayed to be, and THAT is what real TCMA players have a beef with.

Seems like a lot also have a beef with your "Critique this clip" thread. I would suggest that you stick to ridding yourself of the insecurity demons before you take on SD.

TWS, your post....well....didn't you listen to the warnings associated with dropping acid? But good to see that you are still hanging in there.

[kwaichang]

My computer reports this is number 1500 post so lets make the ones forward positive OK. How has the Martial Arts changed your life for the POSITIVE ??? KC:)

[Ou Ji]

Sorry, off topic. Try again after reading the heading. :D

[kwaichang]

I figured one person would opt out of trying to make the thread more informative.. I guess all the other posts were on topic KC:mad:

[BM2]

Sure, let's roast marshmellows and sing around the camp fire:D

[kwaichang]

HUH :mad: :D :( KC

[onyomi]

Look, it's very simple. The question is: "Is Shaolin-do for real?" The answer is "no." It doesn't take 1500 posts.

[chud]

Thought that I would relate something I watched lastnight that even with all the doubt surrounding SD, made me feel pretty good about SD and M. Sin.

A friend sent me a tape of a Tai Chi series shown on some station out of Canada featuring GM. Shou-Yu Liang (looked him up, seems to be a big dog from what I can tell). He was teaching Yang 24 and doing some Chi Gong. The form looked just like what I learned but that wasn't the interesting part. The Chi Gong that he was explaining was what did it. As he did the exercise, he also called out the points and meridians that needed to be hit and the visualization of doing so. The interesting part (to me anyway) was that everything he mentioned, I had learned about 20 years or so ago from SD and M. ST. Same names, same flow, same everything. Our exercises might have been called something different (I didn't take the time to check my old notes) but every exercise he did, I was able to call out the path and point 2 steps ahead of him.

To most, this story will mean nothing more than me trying to make it to post 1500, but to me, it really meant a lot. Regardless of my relentless defense of SD, I too from time to time wonder about SD. Even the most confident person will have doubts if all they ever hear is negative comments. But after watching that show and seeing that what this person was teaching was exactly what I had learned a long long time ago (with a lot more detail ;) , I think it will be enough for me to keep up the fight for another 100 pages.

So, in my ever so humble opinion, the question posed for this thread was once again answered....and the answer was a very loud YES:D

The use of the Yang 24 was the reason I left Shaolin Do. The Yang 24 is a modern invention and the fact that it is endorsed by the PRC communist gov't taints it IMO. Don't get me wrong Golden Tiger, I'm glad you found validation in it. And I think SD is an effective style, I've seen some SD black belts who were good martial artists. But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.

[htowndragon]

wuts the post count on this thread now?

[Judge Pen]

The use of the Yang 24 was the reason I left Shaolin Do. The Yang 24 is a modern invention and the fact that it is endorsed by the PRC communist gov't taints it IMO. Don't get me wrong Golden Tiger, I'm glad you found validation in it. And I think SD is an effective style, I've seen some SD black belts who were good martial artists. But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.


Really? I disagree about the martial application. It is a modern form. Master Sin told everyone that he was teaching this since it was the most prevalent form of tai chi out there and we should have it. That was upfront. If you will leave a system because they teach tai chi 24 then you have ruled out many TCMA schools that also teach some tai chi on the side. So what have you been studying since you left SD?

[Golden Tiger]

But the Yang 24 has had much of the martial application removed from it.

What makes you think this? Having practiced 24 for a number of years, I have found many applications within the form (well, as much as can be derived from Tai Chi anyway). I must admit I thought that I had heard all the reason there were for people leaving SD but because they taught a form is a new one. Have to make a note of it for sure.

[kwaichang]

Gee Onyomi,
After only 3 years you are a know all and tell all You havent trained long enough to make any valid statement about the legitamacy of any Martial Art let alone SD. Lets ask those who have trained greater than 15 years and have seen or experienced TCMA prior to the Americanization of the Martial arts for money. KC:D

[Golden Tiger]

Gee Onyomi,
After only 3 years you are a know all and tell all You havent trained long enough to make any valid statement about the legitamacy of any Martial Art let alone SD. KC:D

That is a good point, one that I have made over at MAP where onyomi resides most of the time. Here you have a boy that is so sure of himself after only being interested in the MA's for 3 years and only being out of diapers for 24 where as some of us have been training for close to 30.

I remember when I was but a wee lad, I used to tell my dad that he was full of it and my way was the best. I didn't realized how silly I was until I got a little older....perhaps its time for some others to do the same.

[David Jamieson]

The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.

It was invented a relatively short time ago for the purpose of maintaining the cultural practice of martial art without the people developing real martial ability that could be used to counter any police or governmet concern.

This doesn't make it a good practice, it's ok and will work the whole body, all the joints, the breathing and help you maintain your limber.

It is the simplest to learn and most wide spread form of tai chi in the world.
To make it combat effective would mean going back to the source short and long forms and finding it in those.

As a stand alone martial art, it is not effective to that end without prior knowledge of the postures and their transitions and how to use them martially.

Shou Yu Liang teaches it because he offers instruction on a tv show. You cannot teach the more in depth tai chi practice via this medium with any real efficacy for the players.

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

To this point, they have not done so outside of their own tournaments or the face tournaments we've all come to know and feel like puking from. lol

[kwaichang]

Does this mean fighting to you? The history or truth of an art cannot be proven by winning fights. If this is what you mean. How can one prove that a technique used to defeat an opponent is derived from a single form of combat ?? You cant. As I see it there are many who hope to prove or disprove that SD is from or not from the Shaolin Temples. Since this cant be proven or not then the merit of the art is based upon what it can do for one practicing it. Since there are so many practicing actively, and those who are not currently practicing it , but have, then the viability of the art of SD is therefore proven. If a person considered a good fighter took SD would that make SD a "true" art worth taking ?? Again as I have read and researched I can say that SD is a true TCMA and should be treated as such. If GMT said it wasnt then that would be very interesting as the Forms and History I have learned has been quite awsome to say the least. KC

[lxtruong]

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

At the end of the day, Shaolin-Do will never be "TCMA"-enough for detractors. Even if some Shaolin-Do practitioner went on the world's greatest undefeated streak, would that make it "valid" in your eyes?


To this point, they have not done so outside of their own tournaments or the face tournaments we've all come to know and feel like puking from. lol

Once upon a time I thought about going up to Taji Legacy to see what it was all about and maybe compete. But then I read the rule that people who wear gis aren't allowed to play in that sandbox.

[David Jamieson]

guys from all kinds of martial backgrounds come into and play in the major venues.

there is san da to compete in, all sorts of open nhb stuff in the states, ufc, k1, k2, k3 etc etc etc.

If you are gonna call yourself a "fighting" art, then make it so at some point I would say. I suggest these things for the SD group because of the many many detractors they have and the only to damaging statements that teh founder himself makes and tells his students is gospel.

Thé has the same level of legitimacy as a system leader as simon olaf from temple kungfu.

if you play in any of the sportive combative venues for striking or general martial arts, all you haveto do is learn the rules and train for that venue. If the kungfu is solid, then that will show.

to many "martial artists" willing to quickly back out of putting up or shutting up only does those arts a disservice.

you see all sorts of other shaoliners or family based in shaolin styles fighting in the sportive combative venues all the time and they're happy to do it. Why not SD? Or for that matter, a few other martial arts that not being germane to the topic will remain unnamed. :p

[David Jamieson]

bt and fwiw, 24 style tai chi is NOT Shaolin. :p

[kwaichang]

To Quote a movie " My skills are not there to impress you" As was said even if we the SD people enter a No Holds Barred match and win it will not change what was said or is being said. However I will tell you that when I was in Austin Texas at the SD school one or two of our people did do what you suggested and it did not help to change anyones opinion of the people or the art of SD. If the SD people enter open tourneys as I have in the past we all know they are political. I am not in it for the sport as you guys are I have more respect for my fellow man than to beat the S//T out of someone to prove nothing. However attack my family and I will change my way of thinking and will hurt somebody "real bad" or die trying. KC:)

[chud]

Really? I disagree about the martial application. It is a modern form. Master Sin told everyone that he was teaching this since it was the most prevalent form of tai chi out there and we should have it. That was upfront.

True, it is indeed the most prevalent form of Tai Chi today. But, as David Jamieson said on page 101 of this thread: The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.

This is exactly what I have heard over and over again about the Yang24 form, and my personal experience has reflected it. When I was studying the Yang 24 previously I picked it up easily, to the point where my instructor even commented about how fast I was progressing. But since I started studying more traditional Yang style I am not able to learn as fast, and it is because there is a lot MORE to learn; my current studies in traditional Yang style have made me realize that the Yang24 which I studied previously was very very watered down. Also, the fact that the Yang24 is endorsed by the Chinese gov't should tell you that this form has indeed had much of the martial application removed. Remember, the Chinese are now practicing Wushu (glorified acrobatics) and have spent many years supressing traditional martial arts.

If you will leave a system because they teach tai chi 24 then you have ruled out many TCMA schools that also teach some tai chi on the side.
Absolutely! :)

[chud]

Having practiced 24 for a number of years, I have found many applications within the form

There are some, but the primary emphasis in the Yang24 is on health.

(well, as much as can be derived from Tai Chi anyway).

Traditional Tai Chi is ALL ABOUT martial application.

I must admit I thought that I had heard all the reason there were for people leaving SD but because they taught a form is a new one. Have to make a note of it for sure.

I had no problem with the people in my local ShaolinDo school. They were nice people and it seemed like a well run school. I just felt called to something else.

[Judge Pen]

bt and fwiw, 24 style tai chi is NOT Shaolin. :p

We know. GM The' never said that it was. As far as going back to the original forms to derive application, that is done. Since many of the same postures are repeated in our "64 step" tai chi form then those applications have been practiced for years prior to 24 being introduced into SD.

DJ, I can also see your point about fighting out of SD may be a way to quell some detractors; however, I don't think it is valid. For all I know there a young guys that do this, but the way SD is taught in most places it is more family oriented like many schools. Even if some guys that have trailed only in SD do well in one of the full-contact venues there will be people that say SD is obviously a good form of kempo or karate so it would do little to legitimize it as TCMA.

[Golden Tiger]

The modern 24 was created for health purposes. The martial aspects have been dimished significantly in this version of the Yang form.



Single whip is single whip...


If you are gonna call yourself a "fighting" art, then make it so at some point I would say.

Well, back in my younger years, I traveled around and entered all the competitions that were close and even a few toughman competitions. Worked my a$$ off training, fought those with MA backgrounds and quiet a few good old boys and what do I have to show for it? A funny looking nose, a few cracked ribs and a couple of trophies. Not much of a return on my investment in my opinion.

As for validation, does that mean that because I beat a CLF guy but was whooped by a country boy that SD is better than CLF but not as good as Redneck Fu?

Traditional Tai Chi is ALL ABOUT martial application.

I would have to disagree with you on that. If you only train TC for the fighting aspect, then you are leaving out the best part. Or perhaps I misunderstood your meaning.

For SD to become valid, they must stop making outrageous and erroneous claims and perhaps they should take their art to the mat and get some real wins to shut everyone up.

Outrageous? Perhaps.....Erroneous? Doubtful.

So tell me David, if you and I went to the "mat" and I either won (by a mutually agreed standard) or at the very least kept up with you, would you then become a champion of SD and all its glory?

Or perhaps I taught you a form of ours, and through my instruction, you gained a new skill set that was useful, would you then be convinced?

I guess what I am wondering is what it would take to actually convince you all that it is a valid art? Some have changed the uniforms to look more TCMA and that didn't do it. Some were challenged and did pretty well (still no vid!!!) and that didn't do it.

Its hard to please all the people all the time so I am just wondering what it would actually take(a happy compromise)?

[BM2]

As in any large group of martial arts there are some talanted,devoted people, SD is no different. I believe that the problems with the TCMA community is not with SD competing.
Most do SD as a hobby, not to fight or compete. I did muy thai for 6 months before falling out with the instructor. I started bjj last year. They are geared for fighting and class is very much different than a SD school where learning forms is the main part of class. A fighting school spends at least half the time fighting.
Like GT, my friends and I competed in the point fighting tournaments in the '80s against Karate and TKD schools. What I learned was everyone was competive with each other. One of my classmates entered in a "Badesst Man in Town" tournament. It was boxers, kickboxers etc. and he finished in the last 4 out of 16 fighters two years in a row. No weight brackets.
I do think that forms competion would be different and I would like to see some people work up Hua or one of the other forms and compete. And for the no gi rule making people feel unwanted, you can put on a Chinese uniform.

[Judge Pen]

And for the no gi rule making people feel unwanted, you can put on a Chinese uniform.

:eek: :eek: :eek: Blasphemy! :D

Seriously, I like the Chinese style uniforms, but lxtroung has gone on record as saying that he will never wear one. I think that was during the early debate about our school wearing frog-button tops.

I wish I could do hua the way it was supposed to look. I'm trying to figure out what form to do for Oso's tournament in February. I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?

Oh, David, yes that's an open CMA tournament that I'm going to compete to support a friend and his sponsored tournament. I probably won't win (honestly, my forms are not my best suit) but I'm looking forward to it. Am I more CMA now?

[lxtruong]

:eek: :eek: :eek: Blasphemy! :D

Seriously, I like the Chinese style uniforms, but lxtroung has gone on record as saying that he will never wear one. I think that was during the early debate about our school wearing frog-button tops.

I can't say I care enough to

1. drive several hours
2. pay $$ for tournament entry fee
3. pay even more $$ for a uniform
4. essentially misrepresent myself

For what? A cheap trophy? I'll pass. If it were just the first two, maybe.


I wish I could do hua the way it was supposed to look. I'm trying to figure out what form to do for Oso's tournament in February. I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?


I was working on 5 animal fist last night. God that form is long. Do 4th spear, it's easier. Or do Kwan Dao, but you're a wuss if you do it with anything less than a 13 lb Kwan Dao (not like I can really swing that thing around, but who cares about that? :) )

[Golden Tiger]

I can't say I care enough to

1. drive several hours
2. pay $$ for tournament entry fee
3. pay even more $$ for a uniform
4. essentially misrepresent myself

For what? A cheap trophy? I'll pass. If it were just the first two, maybe.


If nothing else, the fellow sticks to his guns.


I'm thinking 5 Animal Form, but I may just do a spear or the Kwan Dao form instead. Any ideas GT?


5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out. Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely. Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) . Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

[lxtruong]

If nothing else, the fellow sticks to his guns.





5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out. Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely. Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) . Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

Long fist short form is a pretty cool kata, has some flashy moves which are good for competition, and can be worked up in about 2 weeks. That's a good one.

[Judge Pen]

5 Animal is pretty long and very hard to stick, especially towards the end when you are worn out.



Actually I end stronger than I start. Making the tam tui really look good is harder for me, but all that is on my weaker leg. If I can nail that first part, the rest of the form is gravy.

Perhaps 1st road of the Hua, or 3rd or Long Fist/ Childrens form. Those , with the low stances and nice kicks would do nicely.

I have enough of a flexibility issue to shy away from the Huas for a representation of our material anyway. The low stances are doable, but I don't flow through them the way I would like. I don't have the little long fist form.

Heck, do the Tiger/Crane and show them how its really done ;) .

I've thought about it, but I think I'm a bit better at 5AF minus the first part.

Weapons....2nd level sword is a nice one or perhaps 1/2 of the twin edge tiger swords...blow them away.

I don't have 2nd level broadsword. I have double hook sword, but honestly, I'm not a fan of that form. I could do Kwan Dao in my sleep.

[David Jamieson]

I guess what I am wondering is what it would take to actually convince you all that it is a valid art?

call it what it is, ie: the collected stuff of sin kwan thé through various means. predominated by Kempo karate.

stop claiming that it is the 'only' true shaolin, it is not.

stop with the spurious claims of ownership and all the other stuff.

I personally think it can still be redeemed in this matter, but it is up to someone to step forward and wash away all the freaking nonsense that has been spewed out about it.

Lies simply will not do and where one doesn't know, one should simply say "i don't know".

Having said that, SKT and his organization are not the only ones guilty of being bull.sh.itt.ers

[kwaichang]

OK So you have seen traditional martial arts from China , when was that and who was it ? How do we know that what you have seen is real either. Or what you do is real ? I have seen American and Chinese Kempo and of what I have seen SD is not it. So as we have said so many times stop your opinion and Give facts. BTW just because what you have seen looks similar to what we do does not make what we do what you have seen. So in a nut shell either put up your factual data or shut up, you can no more prove what SD is or isnt so since many train in it many of whom have done research of the style I choose to believe SD is SHAOLIN !!! THis isnt Family court where one is guilty until proven innocent. It is Real SHAOLIN until you guys prove otherwise KC:mad:

[David Jamieson]

OK So you have seen traditional martial arts from China , when was that and who was it ? How do we know that what you have seen is real either. Or what you do is real ? I have seen American and Chinese Kempo and of what I have seen SD is not it. So as we have said so many times stop your opinion and Give facts. BTW just because what you have seen looks similar to what we do does not make what we do what you have seen. So in a nut shell either put up your factual data or shut up, you can no more prove what SD is or isnt so since many train in it many of whom have done research of the style I choose to believe SD is SHAOLIN !!! THis isnt Family court where one is guilty until proven innocent. It is Real SHAOLIN until you guys prove otherwise KC:mad:

lol.

please observe this post and understand with further depth why cult like practices are a problem when involving people who don't have a will or mind of there own that is strong enough to at the very least call a spade a spade.

whatever, you karate guys may believe what you like.

but becauise you say it, doesn't make it so.

get over it and enjoy your fantasy.

I guess it's hard when you invest all that time sweat and energy into something only to have a bunch of d1cks like me tell you you have wasted your time and your leader is a lier.

Kinda like how marines who are republican must feel at times. :p

[kwaichang]

I do not care what you "****s" say I respect your opinion as an opinion and that is all. We all know opinions are like A H everyone has one. BUT when someone expresses their opinion and is asked for proof and gives none discredits the opinion already given. As for a cult any time you are in an organization where one person is a leader could be considered a cult. I am not told what to think and I feel you and others saying we are in a cult is an insult to those of us who do have a brain and use it. So say what you like but all I ask is back it up with data KC

[Golden Tiger]

Such lovely postings and so close to Christmas even....ahhh the holidays:)

only to have a bunch of d1cks like me tell you you have wasted your time and your leader is a lier.

Truer words have never been spoken..and it is "liar" just so you know.

call it what it is, ie: the collected stuff of sin kwan thé through various means. predominated by Kempo karate.


I think that is always what it has been called. Sin The Karate Club, Sin The Shaolin-Do, etc. Only some of the material taught is said to have come out of the Shaolin system. As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).

stop claiming that it is the 'only' true shaolin, it is not.

I would have to agree with KC on this one. How do YOU know its not? Would you consider what is being taught at the temple today " true shaolin"? Many would disagree with that for sure. But then again, the stuff is being taught there so by definition it is "true shaolin" but most would claim its "PRC approved wushu". I think all would agree that it is certianly different than what was being taught in the 1800 and early 1900's. But since we don't have any vid's, it is hard to know for sure.

stop with the spurious claims of ownership and all the other stuff.


Again, they are not spurious claims because it is his system and for all practical matters, he does own it. By your own claims, GMST collected the forms, designed a system around them and therefore owns it.

I personally think it can still be redeemed in this matter, but it is up to someone to step forward and wash away all the freaking nonsense that has been spewed out about it.

Lies simply will not do and where one doesn't know, one should simply say "i don't know".

Thank you for your optimism and thats what a few of us are trying to do.

please observe this post and understand with further depth why cult like practices are a problem when involving people who don't have a will or mind of there own that is strong enough to at the very least call a spade a spade.


I love it when the "cult" card is played. And as for calling a spade a spade, I think you helped us with that....see first quote:D

whatever, you karate guys may believe what you like.

You say this like it is an insult. I have no problem being called a karate guy at all. I think the big problem for you is having a karate guy (like me)that can take your kung fu forms (that Black Tiger form on vid perhaps) and be able make corrections (and trust me, there would be plenty to choose from) and show you things about it that you only have had wet kung fu dreams about.

Kinda like how marines who are republican must feel at times.

I think this comment speaks volumes about you...nuff said

[BM2]

DJ,
FWIW, I have never heard GM Sin state most of the things you have accused him of saying, however some of his students have. I don't agree with it either but anyone can put what they want on their websites even if it's not accurate or polite.
I understand why you hold your beliefs, if all I had to base SD on was what I saw on the web, I would too.
I also hold to be true that if you were to take a class from GM Sin your opinion of him and SD would change. The forms are mostly the same as others e.g. Hua, Long Fist although most do it with too much emphiss on power IMHO.

[David Jamieson]

Golden Tiger- I can appreciate that you can only take it down to the level of atacking me personally. This has a lot to do with not being able to defend that which is indefensable.

thanks for the spelling correction by the way. The grammar and spelling on the internet really is the problem, never mind the ideas being put forth.

BM2- There really is a lot of stuff about SD on the net. There used to be reems of clips showing their "shaolin forms". They also claim to teach complete styles within there doings such as Hung Ga and so on. Have you seen the demonstrations of these stes by their junior masters? I have, they are a couple of things, but definitely not even closely related to the southern shaolin.

revisionism of what was said because it has been redacted due to the fact that it was called onto teh carpet does not wash away the fact that spurious and ridiculous claims have been made by sin the and his students and people he's certified to teach his style.

Let's look at southern shaolin for a second. Sin Thé collected monies from his schools and purchased a stone at the new tourista temple the prc recently built and then made the spurious claim that the stone was awarded to him at the temple as opposed to the truth that he purchased it and that in fact, anyone can purchase a stone at the temple and have it set in as prominent a place as money will buy.

Let's look at the styles of nan sil lum such as Choy li Fut, Hung Ga or wing chun, to just indicate a few. There is nothing in the SD versions of forms they've tried to co-opt from these styles that resembles the principles or actual forms themselves. A beautiful example is the butchering of the tiger/crane form I've seen from sd in more than one iteration. It is sad and wholly incorrect.

How about the swallow form the had or rather "bird" It is practically straight outta shotokan karate and yet it is given the attributes of chinese martial arts in the descrioption of the demonstration.

Anyway, I'm sure that anyone who has invested all that time money and effort into sd would be very unhappy to know that what they have is not exactly what one could call shaolin proper.

You know, ed parker used to say kempo was shaolin chuan fa, it wasn't, it was an odd blend of things that was created to fill a void of demand. Was some of it effective? Sure, there's hundreds of brands of water pistols after all, just like there's hundreds of brands of kungfu.

Good chinese martial arts instruction is pretty hard to come by I have discovered, and pretty near impossible to get out of the sd curriculum as they have so ubiqitously shown across publications on the internet, in the press etc etc.

But you believers keep believing! Enjoy your patches and please post back when you have some incredible benefits of your practice to show or tell us about.

[Golden Tiger]

Golden Tiger- I can appreciate that you can only take it down to the level of atacking me personally. This has a lot to do with not being able to defend that which is indefensable.

As far as I know, I haven't attacked you personally David. And if you feel that I did, please point it out and I will retract it. I did make a slight joke about the head band in the staff form but I think when you first posted it you also poked fun at it.

Let's look at southern shaolin for a second. Sin Thé collected monies from his schools and purchased a stone at the new tourista temple the prc recently built and then made the spurious claim that the stone was awarded to him at the temple as opposed to the truth that he purchased it and that in fact, anyone can purchase a stone at the temple and have it set in as prominent a place as money will buy.

David, you need to re-read the section in this thread concerning the steele. You are simply WRONG. He did not collect anything. His students paid for the marker, not him nor did he ever ask them to. He never claimed that it was awarded (although some web versions may claim this) but that he was honored by it and by having a meeting when the then ailing Abbot.

So see, in just that one assertion, you have made two statements, based only on what you have read here, that are WRONG.

[MasterKiller]

David, you need to re-read the section in this thread concerning the steele. You are simply WRONG. He did not collect anything. His students paid for the marker, not him nor did he ever ask them to. He never claimed that it was awarded (although some web versions may claim this) but that he was honored by it and by having a meeting when the then ailing Abbot.

Well, to be fair, someone (probably the Soards) is/was telling students that the Steele was a gift. Heck, some people even think there is a statue of Sin at Shaolin instead of a steele. So, somewhere there is a source of willful disinformation that is intentionally inflating his relationship to Shaolin. I doubt it's Sin. But at the same time, I don't see him out there trying to rectify the information, either.

[sean_stonehart]

The Soards bought the steles at Henan & Fujian and spin the story the "temple honored him...". It wasn't stopped & I'm not sure it could've been by the time it happened. I'm sure the temple also "honored" all of the Taekwon Do schools, Karate schools & other MA schools that put steles in that courtyard as well. :eek:

Non Soards bought the one at Chenjia guo that was placed outside of the old training hall building in the middle of the village.

[Golden Tiger]

The Soards bought the steles at Henan & Fujian and spin the story the "temple honored him...". It wasn't stopped & I'm not sure it could've been by the time it happened. I'm sure the temple also "honored" all of the Taekwon Do schools, Karate schools & other MA schools that put steles in that courtyard as well. :eek:



I may be wrong and I am sure not going to spend the time sifting thru all the posts but I do believe that Gene said that it was only one of 10 or so in that area and that it was not common for the abbot (especially that one with his illness)to come out and make an appearance.

But anyway, I was just pointing out to David that he was basing his story on what he thought to be good info and he was wrong. He (and most others) have a bad problem doing that. They have absolutely no first person experience on a subject that they try to sound like an expert in.

On the other hand, Sean and even BM2 have related some problems they have with SD and thats fine. They can make an informed decision where as people like David can not.

[Judge Pen]

As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).

They also resemble some of the Tam Tui and Lohan that I've come across so go figure.

[Judge Pen]

Well, to be fair, someone (probably the Soards) is/was telling students that the Steele was a gift. Heck, some people even think there is a statue of Sin at Shaolin instead of a steele. So, somewhere there is a source of willful disinformation that is intentionally inflating his relationship to Shaolin. I doubt it's Sin. But at the same time, I don't see him out there trying to rectify the information, either.

Well, to be fair, I have never heard Sin The' trumpet himself up to be any great grand googely gook master. I've never heard him comment on the marker. I don't think he cares what people say about him on the internet or among his own schools accurate or not.

Perhaps he is comfortable in his own abilities and is just happy to let everyone else talk about whatever they want.

[Judge Pen]

On the other hand, Sean and even BM2 have related some problems they have with SD and thats fine. They can make an informed decision where as people like David can not.

I have no problem with SD as a system. I have a problem with the way it is taught by some and the effort that is given. It's a problem when you have too many forms, but that's up to the individual.

I also think that teacher worship (akin to 'my dad can beat up your dad'--not the cult mentality which I don't see in SD) and marketing got out of hand and now the bell cannot be unrung, but that doesn't affect the way that I punch or kick.

[MasterKiller]

I think that is always what it has been called. Sin The Karate Club, Sin The Shaolin-Do, etc. Only some of the material taught is said to have come out of the Shaolin system. As for the Kenpo issue, of the 150 odd something forms that have been taught, only our short form set even closely resembles karate. Rigid stances, straight punches, hard kicks. The rest of the remaining 149 don't resemble it at all (that I can think of off the top of my head).


According to Page 6 of this article

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/historyofshaolinikfnov1987.pdf

linked to from this website

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/resources.html

Sin The' has mastered (his words, not mine) at least 222 Honan Shaolin forms. I guess if you compare that to 900 or so possible forms, "some" is the proper word to use. Still seems like an awful lot of pure Shaolin, though. ;)

[kwaichang]

The straight punch in SD is somewhat similar to Shoto kan the end. The Bird form I learned is no where similar to Hangetsu or Gankaku both Shoto Kan forms, do not speak of what you dont know. I trained with and under Sensei Nishiyama of the JKA Shoto Kan there is not anything that even remotely resembles Shoto Kan even the source of punching power is different, this statement just proves your ignorance of what SD is. KC:D

[Judge Pen]

Actually it's the words of the author and I assume you are referring to the table "Origins of some of the material mastered by Grandmaster Sin Kwan The."

[The Willow Sword]

Simple in that we all know what SD is and what it ISNT. Yet therein lies the complications because we all have different opinions and experiences with SD.

The rest of the TCMA world recognizes SD for what it is. You can take as many trips to China as you want and be "validated" by the people there who are interested in tourist dollars and helping you guys to live out your fantasies, but still there is a underlying REALITY that remains and believe me, it is NOT the reality you faithfull SD followers believe to be so. I can ASSURE YOU OF THAT.

but should it really matter what the detractors ,and the once faithfull followers who opened their eyes, say and write? It really shouldnt should it?

I mean when you really break all this down and analyze it what you get is people trying so hard to convince themselves and validate themselves that what they are doing "IS" the "REAL" thing and the "ONLY" thing worth doing.
i am reminded of fundamentlaist christians who believe so much what they are into that they blind themselves to all other ways, they condemn other ways and paths,either vocally or silently in thier own minds, they become Radical.
i have seen this all too much within the organization with which i was once faithful to.
you have a kind of silent arrogance that permeates everything you do and you know,that's the world of politics and ego in the martial arts, especially in this country, America, where capitolism and the face value is taken and consumed like one who is an addict, just wanting that quick fix and wanting more and more and more.
Thats what the system seems to provide. But hey its not just with SD you see this in a lot of dojos and kwoons in this country trying to pass themselves off as something REAL and marketing themselves according to what is "IN".
Since there seems to be more of am emphasis on attaining more and more instead of really LEARNING what it is you have, what you get in the final analysis is a bunch of garbage and routines that only seek to lead you to yet another chinese box of more chinese boxes. OR it could be that old capitolistic value mindset that we all have that says that we have to always update and attain new things. Like the auto industry that constantly puts out the new thing and gets people hooked on getting rid of last years model(which is still fully functional and reliable) for this years model.
i site these examples to prove a point in that SD has marketed themselves VERY well and is very successful in the areas they have chosen to set up. Sin The' has made quite the name for himself and in a way i can respect that, i really can.
However, like the starbucks corporation who seeks to permeate everything like a virus and choke out the local mom and pop cafes, SD seeks to choke out the "traditionalists" with their rhetoric and borrow and b@st@rdize every aspect of the oriental arts by claiming to be something that they clearly are not. But hey coffee is coffee right? just like kung fu is kung fu and karate is karate and so on and so forth?
If anything i have learned at SD i have learned that it really doesnt pay to attach yourself to something that is constantly revolving around itself and changing its tune and its form structure and mentality so much that you sit there wondering where the hell you are and where you stand within it.

you know what i say? i say give guys like KC and golden tiger and others in the SD realm a break, a clean break. If what you know to be true in your mind's eye is not theirs, then dont bother with what they believe to be true. we all post our opinions and flame and troll and it always keeps coming back around to the same ole same ole.
So let them live in the realm they have chosen to live in, just as we choose to live in the reality we have created for ourselves. i hope the movie does get made, its a great story and a creative work of fiction and would be an entertaining film.

There is an old Zen saying about the west " A mile wide and an inch deep"


as always and forever,,TWS.

[David Jamieson]

lol at shifting the focus to me.

whatever guys.

one can look at two apples and readily tell which one is ripe and which one is not.

If you can't, then you don't know apples.

I've been eating apples for a long time.
But I certainly don't make any high claims about the martial arts I practice.

One can pay homage to the roots of shaolin kungfu without making claim that only their garden is from those roots and thereby making an attempt at ostracizing others that clearly come from the same tree.

The needs to do some housecleaning in that regards if it all comes down to blame the pions lol. The has the final say, it's his organization and if he doesn't have control of the information that comes out of his organization, then his organization is not much of one.

Anyway, if anyone wants to speak to the legit concerns as opposed to deflecting focus due to rage and contempt or to blame someone else in the organization etc etc, then by all means, we're obviously better than 1500 posts later prepared to listen to some of the real deal. lol

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

[Judge Pen]

would sin care to make comments on this? Or is he of the mind that any publicity is good publicity.

Why should he care?

[David Jamieson]

Why should he care?

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

[Judge Pen]

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Only if you thought the other ships were a threat.

Obvioulsy he doesn't expect or need your, or anyone else that posts on an online community's, approval to be secure in what he does.

[lxtruong]

um, kind of answers itself really.

let me use a metaphor.

say you were a captain of a ship, and that ship was being attacked by other ships, should you care?

Actually perhaps a more apt. metaphor would be if you were the owner of a fleet of ships, and someone out there was spreading a rumor in one particular bar that your fleet was not oceanworthy.

However, let's be honest the vast majority of consumers either 1. don't know about this debate, 2. don't care.

So to go back to this metaphor, sure people are badmouthing the fleet in this one pub, but suppose there were a large number of pubs which did not contain this discussion. And besides, not all prospective clients even GO to pubs. Who's going to care?

[kwaichang]

OK GUYS I GUESS YOU HAVE ABOUT SAID IT ALL. I JUST WISH I HAD THE TIME WASTED BY US ALL TO TRAIN EVEN MORE IN SD. BUT ALAS I DO NOT AND I TOO HAVE CAST MY PEARLS BEFORE SWINE. YOU ALL SAY THAT SD IS NOT THE REAL DEAL BUT ALL YOU DO IS OFFER HERESAY AND A SMIDGEN A VERY SMALL SMIDGEN OF TRUTH AT BEST. SO SINCE YOU CANT PROVE OR DISPROVE ANYTHING LET ME SAY YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS.
I HAVE FOUND IN LIFE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE ENVIOUS OF SOMETHING TYPICALLY TRY TO MAKE IT INTO A LIE OR SAY BAD OR UNTRUE THINGS, IT IS HUMAN NATURE. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ITEMIZED LIST OF FALSEHOODS OF THE SD SYSTEM NUMBERED SO WE CAN DEBATE THEM 1 BY 1.
HOW ABOUT IT TWS I KNOW YOU BEST AND WHY YOU ARE SO DETERMINED TO SAY SD IS NOT FROM THE SHAO-LIN TEMPLES IS BEYOND ME YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AN EGO . SO HERE IS ALL YOU GUYS CHANCE TO ITEMIZE AND PROVE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ONCE AND FOR ALL. THIS IS A CHALLENGE TO ALL WHO FEEL SD IS NOT SHAOLIN. KC:o

[The Willow Sword]

K. C. You once asked me over a Thai lunch if what we were learning was the "real" thing. I learned back then to be very selective and careful with my answers towards you since it was YOU who put the notion in Joes head that i was some sort of spy when you had asked me my M.A. background prior to SD. You brought it upon yourself to go to Joe and tell him something that i had no knowledge of at the time and it got me scrutinized and looked at as being some sort of "spy" sent to "steal" forms and whatever else the bullsh!t was surrounding all that mess with the students of Dr Ng and Dufresne.(it seems to have been a black mark against me from the beginning and would explain alot)
it was then K.C. that i realized that your role was and still is a self serving one. There are followers and leaders and you sir are a follower ,a self serving follower at that. i cant think of a better example of ego and the inflated nature with which you conduct yourself here on these forums(and i am certainly no saint on these forums either but at least i have some integrity) . i think i and others have learned to keep their distance from you.
so with that i think that debating with you is a lost cause and in the end will go nowhere fast.
how arrogantly presumptious to think that all who have an opinion about this subject are "jealous" or seek to fabricate lies or slander. as i understand it most of the comments here are opinions and statements based on direct experience, or the statements are based from what i would call "reality". but then again and as i have said all too many times before " we live in the reality we have created for ourselves, and everyone's reality seems to greatly differ on certain subjects. strange that everyones reality concerning SD connects in some way or another and supercedes the reality that SD has created for itself.
i wish you well in your current endeavors K.C. and regardless of the differences there has always been respect there, at least from my part and only from a position of martial ability. That's as far as it goes.

TWS

[kwaichang]

TWS, I dont know where you got your info but it is incorrect. I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas. But I am not self serving except for the fact that I feel what I am learning is the real deal as you did. What changed your mind ?? Was it when you went to fight someone and told me you had a rib broken and was angry that no one wanted to go and fight with you against people who we didnt even know. Well you have to show me why you believe the way you do and if that is self serving so be it. But again you have evaded the question as all on this forum do all is speculation and rumor. Not fact. I was impressed by the fact you were willing to defend the honor of the system. Something must have changed your spirit and I regret that. I train for 0ne reason I love martial artsmore than I can tell you. I live to train and everytimer I train it is like the 1st time I learn something wonderful and new everytime. So think what you will and waste your time if you want but I would love to train with you again and to hear yours and anyones FACT NOT SPECULATION ABOUT sd . KC

[The Willow Sword]

I never spoke with Joe about you being any kind of spy. I was in Tennessee at the time you were progressing and was suprised to hear you had quit when I returned to Texas.


uhh you need to reread my post KC. Actually READ IT.

let me refresh your memory. this was when i had first joined Sd and was just becoming a green belt. i was house sitting for you at the time and at your place we were discussing martial arts back grounds and you had asked me what my prior training was and who it was with, and i told you that i was studying with someone who was taught by Dr Jon ng and who also studied with someone by the name of John Dufresne. Now at the time i had NO idea about all the bullsh!t surrounding the rivalry and i had not had ANY contact with my prior teacher after i left KY to come back to Texas , so i had no idea from him and HE had no idea i had joined the SD school.

So a few days pass and while i am training outside joe confronts me about the convsersation that YOU AND I had about MY martial background. and thats when the accusations started and i felt like i had been covertly fuked with BY YOU.

now was it your intention to be the good sd soldier and report a possible spy in the organization?(which is a lame fukin thing to do anyway) or was there some other motivation on your part? maybe youd care to fill me in on what was going through that big head of yours at the time. frankly i dont care at this point ,,but what it showed me about YOUR character and Integrity is that there IS NONE there and therefore i chose to keep my distance from you.
So DONT even PRESUME to think that you KNOW ME BEST, because you dont.

TWS

[Judge Pen]

I find it hard to believe that this "rivalry" is still getting air-time. For what it is worth, Dufresne has been here on these forms and I have even personally corresponded with him on his accounts of the events. The one thing that was made clear to me is that he regrets the arrogant display of ego on both sides of those events.

As for these two, you have personal issues that are certainly amplified by this petty debate. There will be no agreement so why even debate?

[kwaichang]

TWS You amaze me we correspond privately and you are cordial. Yet in public you cut me or my personality down. I do recall talking to Joe about you and who you trained with but that is all btw I think he asked. I have learned that people make their own assumptions about things as you have about SD.
When we spoke privately you were so near I was going to contact you and meet with you, I am glad you expressed your true feelings. AS for your teacher Ng and the other guy you trained with, other than you I havent even heard of them. As for being a spy why should I care , typically people worry about spies , if they have something to hide, neither I nor SD do. You are hot and cold. I asked you to itemize because of all the people on this forum" I know you best". So again I ask put up or shut up stop using personal feelings to skirt the issue. Just the facts please not speculation or opinion, KC I personally have no personal issue with TWS why he feels how he does is a puzzle to me. KC:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

uhhh........mmmkay

So JP, what form(s) did you decide on?

[Judge Pen]

Don't know. Considering how hectic work is right now, I'll probably just do Kwan Dao since I don't have to work it up, it's a nice little form, and its a unique form to SD so it will be judged on its own merits and not how it compares to their Tiger-Crane.

[The Willow Sword]

K.C.;Look i have already said my thing when it comes to all this. you can find it within the pages of this ultra-long thread(which i wish gene would just get rid of). take it as opinion, fact, bullsh!t, whatever.
The general consensus still remains the same here and in the rest of the TCMA world. I do not wish to continue on that which has already been quite firmly established here and elsewhere.

The rest of you here: i site the personal experiences ive had with KC and my views about it here to make a point that it is useless to debate with him on anything. its not an attack on his personality persay,,just an unfortunate waste of time in my opinion given my experience.

JP: i only bring up the dr NG and dufresne thing to site an incident which took place that involved me and the constant horsesh!t ive had to deal with at SD for years when i was there. i in no way wish to bring up those other events that have NOTHING TO DO WITH ME BECAUSE THEY HAPPENED AT A TIME WAY BEFORE I EVEN KNEW SD EXISTED( so lets not get ahead of ourselves here JP).

i find myself getting sucked back in to this thread and i do not wish to do so again.
so i am out of here yet again and hopefully the continuing process of getting the SD thing out of my system will finally be all but spent.

take care and peace,,Happy Holidays,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

Well this was blown all out of proportion. While I have all the time in the world I am tired of wasting my time reading how people with no proof continue to say unproven and untrue things about SD. I issued a general point by point consolidation of the argument but to no avail. So sorry I bothered mentioning TWS as I had hoped he would lead the way not get angry. Sorry Man. So the invite is still there. KC:)

[BM2]

the I am tired of wasting my time reading how people with no proof continue to say unproven and untrue things about SD. I issued a general point by point consolidation of the argument but to no avail. KC:)



I too grow tired of reading the same things but I don't try to change someone's mind, remember they are also growing tired of trying to change your mind as well:)
While many of things are untrue, strange and just unblievable there are some that are valid. MK has made a couple of points that I agree with. Funny thing is if he had started off in SD he would be defending it....almost:D
And last but most certainly not least, what in the hell did I do to you GT to put me in the same sentace as Sean?:p ;)

[Judge Pen]

And last but most certainly not least, what in the hell did I do to you GT to put me in the same sentace as Sean?:p ;)

I know you were joking to a degree, but Sean's a good guy. He has his reasons for leaving and I respect that. His problems with SD are at least one from experience and not conjecture.

[sean_stonehart]

:D Huh? Somebody ring??;)

JP... did you get that PM I sent?

[kwaichang]

I wandered on to a site a Link through David Jamiesons link well I have a question??? If Shaolin Do is not TCMA then why all the similar movements that I observed in that tape sure there were some differences but also some similarities. Riddle me this , it stated there are many "styles of Black Tiger Kung Fu" if this is so then why cant the BT kung fu the SD people be just as Chinesey as any, I also observed a Kwan Dao form again many of the moves were similar maybe a different sequence but close. I also noticed that the moves were not as "power" oriented as those of SD. Different emphasis different teacher maybe a different way of thinking I guess. KC:confused:

[BM2]

Yeah that is why I put the tounge sticking out and the wink face at the end.
KC, what I meant is you know what ever is written will not change your mind. You should know that whatever you write will not change DJ's mind. PM sent.

[Judge Pen]

:D Huh? Somebody ring??;)

JP... did you get that PM I sent?

I don't think I did.

[sean_stonehart]

resent :D :D

[CaptinPickAxe]

Wow....

Spies, half-truths, and more drama than Jerry Springer, Monday afternoon soap-operas, and 2 bums fighting over the last pork chop rolled into one...


SD's up to the same 'ol bullsh!t.:rolleyes:

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also,

Sitting around an internet message board arguing that your art is just as l33t if not more than the originator that your GM copied it from is just retarded. If you want respect...fight. Go on to Bullshido, attend a throwdown, and earn some fu(kin' respect instead of begging for it. The reason I say Bullshido is because KFM has a policy against arranging fights, but it's the only way I'll shut up and start agreeing with SD.

Beat someone besides HedgeHogey (and not in a wanna be "kumite" multiple fight format, this just fruther solidifies the B.S.), and more than once to gain respect.

So, gents...

Quit being a big group of Patsies and Nancy boys....strap on some fu(kin' gloves and EARN that respect

MAN UP, B!TCHES

[kwaichang]

Shows how big a pansey you are Pick who needs gloves H//l even the NHB matches have rules . You are the biggest BS so far this forum is not titled who can kick who, it is, is SD real. and whether some one can fight or not is not the issue but for sport, it aint real anyway. Its for real. KC:p

[kwaichang]

SH** Are you from Monkey island or FIRE Island KC

[chud]

Wow....

Spies, half-truths, and more drama than Jerry Springer, Monday afternoon soap-operas...

I know. I can't stop reading it.

[Judge Pen]

Haven't we beat this horse already? If an SD beats a __________ guy, it means that he is a good fighter and implies that SD can train you to fight, but it does not prove that SD is or isn't what it claims to be. Now I'm all for a good throwdown, but to say that it will be the end all be all of the debate is naive.

[Golden Tiger]

Quit being a big group of Patsies and Nancy boys....strap on some fu(kin' gloves and EARN that respect

MAN UP, B!TCHES

Profile info:

Date of Birth:
January 17, 1984
Age:
21
What's your MA style?:
Shuai Chiao, Boxing, Splashing Hands, Shaolin-Doh!
Location:
Cannibal Village, Monkey Island
Interests:
Kung Fu, Eastern Religion, Long Boarding, and Music
Occupation:
Student

Enough said...

Then again, don't monkeys just sit around wacking off and flinging poo all day?

[Citong Shifu]

Wow, you guys are ruthless on this Shaolin-Do subject! You know, The name Shaolin is very commercialized now. Almost Everyone is Shaolin,no matter the style, lol. It seems like every Chinese martial arts school and teacher is the only real Shaolin, hmmmmm. In my 30 years experience I've seen and heard alot of who's, who and what's, what. As far as shaolin-Do, it seems like some people have had a bad experience with this style and others just don't like the claims given by that particular Grandmaster. I can really understand this. I had a similar experience when I wasted 6 years in Wah Lum kung fu, but all and all, does this stuff really matter? You kow what you know, he knows what he knows, I know what I know, etc. Isn't this what really matters. Sure I know some things about Shaolin-Do's history and claims, as well as other schools/styles, who really cares!!! I truely believe that if people are being mislead it will all come out in time, until then we train as Chinese martial artist, improve our health/fitness, our selves, and our skills. The rest of the chop suey slop will dwindle and fade out, eventually. Ok, everyone take care. Train hard and live wise.

Ron.

[MasterKiller]

While many of things are untrue, strange and just unblievable there are some that are valid. MK has made a couple of points that I agree with. Funny thing is if he had started off in SD he would be defending it....almost:D

Possibly, but I was always pretty skeptical about the stuff my Sifu told me as well. In fact, I started coming to this place because I was trying to find information to verify some of his stories.

So, I think I probably would have become disillusioned with SD failry early on once I started putting 2 and 2 together.

Of course, right now I'm out on my own anyway. So, odds are I would have become disillusioned with whatever I started with. ;-)

[Golden Tiger]

Let's look at the styles of nan sil lum such as Choy li Fut, Hung Ga or wing chun, to just indicate a few. There is nothing in the SD versions of forms they've tried to co-opt from these styles that resembles the principles or actual forms themselves. A beautiful example is the butchering of the tiger/crane form I've seen from sd in more than one iteration. It is sad and wholly incorrect.

How about the swallow form the had or rather "bird" It is practically straight outta shotokan karate and yet it is given the attributes of chinese martial arts in the descrioption of the demonstration.

If you guys learn that form, break it down, extrapolate it and figure out what it is what in it, then by all means, let's discuss it. Otherwise, take my word in regards to the film of me when I say that what I am doing here or there is coming from a viewpoint of "I" am doing it, not watching it, not mindlessly ambling about etc etc.

Too bad you don't practice what you preach David. Life is a little different when you are on the hot seat huh.....

(sorry, works slow with the holidays and all....kind of bored this morning)

[orion_steel]

i have thought about posting on this topic for 2 years but i have always backed down...but here goes.

i think that politics is what kills the shaolin-do system....the system has some points that are interesting....there are many many problems with it....i could write a really long list....but hey, if you are happy with the style then you should pursue it...but to me the problem comes with a certain sort of "incomplete" knowledge, politics, and arrogance of many (but not all).

but then again, that does appeal to some.

so, i suppose as they say in my parts of the world "it will all come out in the wash", hehehehe

[kwaichang]

I thought this was finished KC:p

[orion_steel]

Yea, i dont mean to get things started up again....so no one needs to reply. I think that i was just getting some stuff off of my chest. Thanks for hearing me out though. It is appreciated.

[lxtruong]

This thread will never die. $h4£1n-Ð0 ƒ0r3v3r

(l33t translation found at http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/leet.php)

[humbleman]

It was a warm, sunny fall evening in Erie, heading home from a Shaolin-Do class. It's 78 degrees, the windows are all down cooling me with rapidly evaporating sweat. Bright columns of sunlight streaming down through golden leaves and black branches make me squint. Feeling beat up but happy and exhilarated, almost high. The radio is playing R.E.M.s latest, "Shiny Laughing People." Turning it up, the words become clear- "Love me, love me, put it in the ground where the flowers grow...gold and silver shine..." Already at full volume, the music unaccountably seems to grow louder until it permeates the whole world. Feeling for all the world like the victorious warrior. Beautiful, beautiful Erie.
It's only now looking back that I really know what those shafts of light were, coming down from heaven through the trees. Should have been able to tell from their perfect straightness, regardless of the angle of descent. So absolutely pure they were clear, but so bright they hurt the eyes. The defining edges sharper than any worldly razor or sword could ever be. The souls of fallen heroes, lined up in staggered formation among the trees. The selfless light that shines from the finest of human hearts eternally as a reminder to us left behind.
I would not trade my experience with Shaolin-Do for all the money in the world.:)

[cha kuen]

looks bogus to me. but if white americans dig such a thing.... then whatever.

[Judge Pen]

It was a warm, sunny fall evening in Erie, heading home from a Shaolin-Do class. It's 78 degrees, the windows are all down cooling me with rapidly evaporating sweat. Bright columns of sunlight streaming down through golden leaves and black branches make me squint. Feeling beat up but happy and exhilarated, almost high. The radio is playing R.E.M.s latest, "Shiny Laughing People." Turning it up, the words become clear- "Love me, love me, put it in the ground where the flowers grow...gold and silver shine..." Already at full volume, the music unaccountably seems to grow louder until it permeates the whole world. Feeling for all the world like the victorious warrior. Beautiful, beautiful Erie.
It's only now looking back that I really know what those shafts of light were, coming down from heaven through the trees. Should have been able to tell from their perfect straightness, regardless of the angle of descent. So absolutely pure they were clear, but so bright they hurt the eyes. The defining edges sharper than any worldly razor or sword could ever be. The souls of fallen heroes, lined up in staggered formation among the trees. The selfless light that shines from the finest of human hearts eternally as a reminder to us left behind.
I would not trade my experience with Shaolin-Do for all the money in the world.:)

I like the way you say things. I get what you are saying and respect it.

[humbleman]

Was watching documentary about iraq war. Army intel guy said, "when everything else you've tried has failed, there's one thing they will understand."

[humbleman]

"violence- the other universal language."

[orion_steel]

"violence- the other universal language."

i like that.

[MasterKiller]

What do you guys think about this site:

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/histgen.html

They are a Chinese style migrated to Indonesia, claim a true Shaolin lineage, the guy came to America later than Sin The', and yet they don't have any Japanese trappings.

In fact, they have a picture that looks like from 50s or 60s of men doing CHinese lion dancing out in public.

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/images/indonesia2.jpg

Anyway, food for thought.

[Radhnoti]

I think it's pretty interesting MK, thanks for the site.
From the site MK posted - " Our style of Kung Fu, Shaolin Hung Mei, is therefore descendant from the original Shaolin Temple. "Hao Peng", the namesake of our school (the Chinese word for school is "wu kwon"), was a nickname given to the last Grandmaster, Choung Shi Gouw Shin Hie, who, several generations ago, migrated to Indonesia. "Hao Peng" was a traveling medicine showman who gave demonstrations and drew large crowds. In order to keep the crowds back, he would spin his fire rope dart. In doing so, he was given the nickname Ho Fang - "Ho" meaning "Fire" and "Fang" meaning "Throw". Due to the language difference in Indonesia, his name was pronounced "Hao Peng". Choung Shi Gouw Shin Hie learned his kung fu from Choung Shi Louie Pek Sing from Northern Shaolin. "

What's interesting, to me, about this info is how tantalizingly close it is to a few stories passed down through SD.
The story of Ji Shou Hu. I've posted it in full earlier in this thread but in summary Sin The' as a boy visited a "colleague" of GM Ie's on a neighboring island (Bali). He was giving a demo with chain whip...on a bicycle...in front of a crowd.
Also, the "Giant Bird" forms were a family style and now are known as tai peng (note the other school's ancestor is known as Hao Peng)...this is what GM Sin's brother Hiang specialized in as it was taught by another teacher at the school (Liu Su Pong). And, I BELIEVE, that GM/Master/whatever Hiang ALSO specialized in chain whip. I've seen at least one picture of Hiang whirling around either a chain or rope dart on fire...possibly no relation since THEIR Peng is supposed to be a pronounciation issue, but an odd similarity nontheless.

Their curriculum is NOT all that different than SDs either..."Than Tui", "counter movements" (which correspond with what they call one step sparring techniques),Tai Chi Ba Qua Hsing-I Juen is the last long form learned in their "internal" section , northern and southern forms. If there's absolutely no connection at all, it's interesting how the history (and structure) passed down in each system has certain parallels.

[lxtruong]

phew, I thought this thread was going to die and we would never reach our goal of 10000000 posts. Good job MK.

Looking at the pictures, it seems that before their most recent heads came to the US the head honcho just wore normal guy clothes.

http://www.shaolinhungmei.com/histpg2.html <- wearing dockers

Their "chinese uniforms" seem to be a rather recent introduction. Why, oddly similar to introducing japanese gis.

[Judge Pen]

I thought their material list, and its origins were interesting as well. Shantung in SD is where the black tiger (He Hu Chuan) style originated. It seems they have it listed as well (He Fu juen) although the translations could be off. I'd like to see their Oo Ling Juen form and compare it to SD's and Lau Bun's lineage.

[Radhnoti]

You think their He Hu Chuan is what they translate as Tiger or Black Panther? The black tigers are, from what I understand and as far as I know, unique to SD...it'd be REALLY interesting to see someone else's.

[kwaichang]

Again judgeing a style by the uniform is a flaw in logic. But this site does confirm that a "true" Shaolin system did migrate to Indonesia then why couldnt others ? KC

[MasterKiller]

You think their He Hu Chuan is what they translate as Tiger or Black Panther? The black tigers are, from what I understand and as far as I know, unique to SD...it'd be REALLY interesting to see someone else's.

I have a Shandong Black Tiger form.

Shaolin has its own Black Tigers as well, though I believe they were created pretty recently.

[Radhnoti]

I actually meant the look/moves/feel of SD's Black Tigers, sorry to be so vague. It's one of the few SD forms I've heard people compliment online. But, honestly, SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

[Judge Pen]

SD forms are the only type I've seen in person.

Really? I've seen lots of good Hung Gar, CLF and mantis in person. No other Tiger, though. I've seen some on vid. The techniques and footwork were very similiar, but it was played a little slower than we do our Black Tiger.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Seriously, I've heard of no styles outside of Korean/Japanese and shaolin-do even within an hour of where I live. And to be honest, the Japanese styles all seem to have even more nebulous histories than SD...or if they DO have a "lineage" it's via seminar.
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

[Judge Pen]

Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

It's got more. Not much for CMA though, but certainly more than where you are or where I used to live. CMA: SD, Wah Lum, a BaGua/Chen Tai Chi teacher, and Richard Clear in Maryville (Kung Tao). Lots of TKD and some Japanese (a really good aikido school here, small but good instruction.) The boxing guy you mentioned, some BJJ and MMA gyms. I've run accross some poeple that train privately too so it's there if you want. For my tastes, I'm happy with the Mullins. They work me hard and teach me well. And its very affordable.

The CLF I see is in Atlanta and the mantis is Oso and Yu Shan's group. Good stuff a couple of hours away.

[Golden Tiger]

MK is gonna mess right around and discover the proof that SD is in fact a legit system...:D

[orion_steel]

Maybe I don't get out much. :D
Knoxville does seem like it's got quite a bit to offer martially...

I may have to end up moving to Tennessee i think :)

[Judge Pen]

Look us up if you do.

[lxtruong]

Everyone knows Austin is way cooler than any place in Tenn.

We also have killer Mexican Martinis. And good BBQ, beat that!

[Judge Pen]

I've got nothing but good things to say about Austin. . . . but our b-ball team put the smack down on your then ranked #2 horns.

(I must be in a alternate dimension if I'm talking up Tenn. basketball, but not mentioning football.)

[yu shan]

O/T with current discussion, but I had the chance to witness Judge in action this past weekend. I had a group participating in a tournament in NC. I knew JP was entering this contest and I looked forward to seeing him again. And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude! Anyway, I officiated in forms and fighting. So I of course got to see JP in action. Your 5 animal form was a very nice set... extremely long, how in the h*ll can you remember all that? I scored JP`s Kwando high, one of the nicer sets I have seen and a personal favorite, some difficult moves to execute. But what most impressed me with JP was his fighting! This man is a true gladiator! He is right at home in the ring, and displayed excellant combat skills. His name came up many times that night while our group were pounding back beers, reflecting over the day. I will use him as an example for my folks in the future. JP`s division was very tuff, and he manned up, a real stud in the ring.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks as always Jim. You're going to have to post the KFO picture you took.

[yu shan]

I plan on posting the pic, every picture tells a story.

[lxtruong]

Yes. 5 animal fist is long as ****. I'm working it up right now for our tournament coming up and everytime I finish running through it I'm like "Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

Bah, basketball. I'm an Illini, so I care naught about the crazy antics of these wacky longhorns.

[Judge Pen]

"Oh god, what in the world was I thinking when I decided to this form".

I know the feeling, but the form is just so pretty when its done right. One day I'll get there.

And JP, with all due respect to you, your lady is HOT! You are one lucky dude!

I know; and she can cook.

[yu shan]

Hmm, a lady that looks that good and cooks too! You deserve her bro.

[sean_stonehart]

Wait til you drop by one day while passing through town & she has "snacks" for you. I haven't eaten that well before in restaurants!!

[Judge Pen]

Jim and Oso, Knoxville is half-way between Nashville and Asheville. Yo can drop by my place anytime for snacks or just to say hello. I'm two minutes away from a school if you want to get a workout in too.

[Golden Tiger]

...... Knoxville is half-way between Knoxville and Asheville. .......


Is it just me or.....

[Judge Pen]

Is it just me or.....

Oops. That invite goes for you too, GT or anyone else in Kentucky if you are ever down my way.

[Radhnoti]

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

[sean_stonehart]

...no one tell JP...but, party at his place next weekend. ;)

Whoo hoo!!! Food & beer supplies are at the top of his road too!!!

Wonder if he'll leave a credit card laying around to make sure we don't run short???:D :p

[Judge Pen]

Just take care of the dogs. That will save me money on a dog-sitter.

[yu shan]

JP, I`m interested, have you run this by Matt? This takes two hours off my trip and I can be home to my puerto rican princess that night.

[Judge Pen]

I'm all for it. A friend of mine just opened a school 2 minutes from my house. It is also 2 minutes off of the interstate in West Knoxville. I am helping him teach some classes in exchange for a key to the place. I'll be there on Saturdays from 10-11:30 for class and open mat. I can meet you guys there if it would be easier for you (and I can pick up some technique along the way). Just let me know when you guys want to come down. Let me clear it with my friend, but I don't anticipate a problem.

[Oso]

Sounds good to me. West K'ville would put it right in the middle of me and Yu.

Let's set it up.

Yu, don't forget you'll still cross the time zone.

[yu shan]

Ha dang we`re building bridges! Yep, I`ve done the knoxville run 100 times. I know every nick and cranny in I-40. JP thanks for the offer, this helps.

[Judge Pen]

No problem. Right off of the Lovel Road exit. . . .

[yu shan]

West Knoxville, 2nd exit good for me, I hate the thru traffic. Bad for Matt though. Are they ever going to get this traffic problem fixed in K`ville?

[Judge Pen]

I've been here for 9 years and it hasn't gotten any better. One thing is for sure, they've worked on the problem enough that you would think it should be fixed.

[sean_stonehart]

I thought that road construction was SOP for Chattvegas & K'ville. I've been in & through them since the late 80's & have yet to avoid road work at any time.

[kwaichang]

Hey JP where is the school I used to live off Lovell Rd too. BTW plan to be living there by April Maybe we can train and build further the bridges ?? KC:)

[Oso]

Ok. When's the first date?

Yu, I need to really get some time in on Ling Beng Bu, both sides.

[Ou Ji]

Hey, can anybody get in on this?

Actually I'm heading for a road trip soon and might be able to make a few stops along the way. PM me where I can find some of you guys.

[Oso]

to be on topic for a second...

I had a walk in tonight.

She had just come from the SD school down the street.

In the process of pitching myself and my school she asked me what the difference is between me and the SD school.

Here's what I told her.

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

[Oso]

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

[kwaichang]

Glad to hear that you have not expressed Bias in what you told that prospective student I would like to meet you you seem to harbor the true Martial Way are you in K-ville KC:)

[Oso]

nope, I'm only about 90 minutes away though.

[Judge Pen]

The sifu at that school is a nice guy. I thought so the first time I met him, he got a good recommendation from the only other SD guy I know who is also a nice guy.

I told her that the teacher and the overall school environment was the most important thing.

I also told her that both school's systems were readily researched on the internet and that she could do so am draw her on conclusions.

I feel I was fair while somewhat expressing my own opinion.

I've had more contact with that sifu lately and continue to think he's a nice guy and plan on working with him and his teacher (Master Mullins) on getting a good sparring venue going in asheville because that's what they seem to be interested in.

But, to be fair to myself, I still have reservations about what they say as a group about the system and it's history.

Be sure to bring in Scott Powell in Asheville. He teaches there too, but only has about 10 students. He's not the most politically correct guy, but he has a good heart, a great personality, and he's a good fighter. He just calls things as he sees them which can rub some people the wrong way. He was there on Saturday and ended up being a coach of sorts for me.

As for what you said; that's fine. I explain it to people like this:

Our art is controversial in the CMA community. Our teacher came from Indonesia, and while claiming lineage to the Shaolin temples, the outward trappings have changed somewhat from what you see in other CMA schools. Our history, beyond Sin The's teachers, are also unverifiable. While some people place a great deal of emphasis on history and lineage, I think what matters is the quality of the instruction and the applicability of the material. I feel we offer both as well as any school.

But, then again, I am a little biased. Call it as you see it Oso. I feel you are as objective as anyone I've met on this topic.

I expalin the difference in your school and ours in terms of focus. Your school focuses on a single style and you will get a deeper understanding of mantis forms, theory application and principles there than we can offer you. The forms are good and they train good fighters. Our school teaches more diverse material in a curriculim designed to build off the skills learned earlier. It's a different approach, but the end result is intended to be the same.

Plus you guys have the best spear set I've ever seen.

[Ou Ji]

Ashevegas, NC 28806

;)

you're coming to fight, right?

Yeah, it's the Ou Ji Fight Tour '06. :D

Actually, if there's as much drinking as I hear then fighting is inevitable. I'm mostly Irish. :p

[yu shan]

LOL, yea everytime I get back from a road trip to Asheville I got to attend an AA meeting! :D Oso, heck I need to get back on Beng Bu, I have been so busy with getting my guys and gals ready for the tournament, that I have neglected my training. I spent last night reviewing Kevin`s seminar, good stuff. JP & Oso, lets talk, this will be a bounce trip for me.

[Oso]

JP: Yea, I will talk to Scott too.

I do try to be fair and as I said, recent discussions w/ Bob and the tournament experience recently have left me feeling more positive about you guys.

I know I couldn't have pulled that roundhouse kick off from as low as you were. :)

To be fair, I think that spear form is one of Jim's Wah Lum forms. I started learning it but haven't finished it. I like it.

Ou Ji: yep, plenty o' drinking but I'm not a fighter as far as that goes. I like to sit back and chill and talk.

Yu Shan: I thought your meetings were every week? ;) Well, lets get Beng Bu back up together.

[Judge Pen]

Last weekend in this month should work for me. Saturday afternoon or any day on Sunday. I still need to clear it with my friend. If not, I have a yard if the weather is good enough.

[dougadam]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

http://www.shaolin-do.com/

[Sin The']

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

[BM2]

Man I wish Gene would delete that account :confused: or Dougadam would give him a candle and some bleach;)

[Golden Tiger]

No BM2. That would be censorchip...and that's just wrong.

On a side note, are you going to make it to the seminar this time?

[lxtruong]

Of course the reality of Shao-Lin is it's actuallity.

I just wish he would structure his trollish posts in a more gramatically correct manner. What is this supposed to mean?

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

[BM2]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39080

Candles and bleach? Now you know the rest of the story. Be sure to scroll down and read Gene's responses.
GT,if something doesn't come up I'll be there next month.

[Golden Tiger]

Looks like there will be a nice sized texas contingent at this year's seminar. I think we're probably looking at something close to 20.

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

[SimonM]

Is Mega Fist back again?

[lxtruong]

Good deal. Come in on Thursday and stop by the gym. It'll be fun:D

Haha, alas no can do, since we're leaving here driving on Thursday. Plus, I've been through one of Master Bill's thursday classes before. I don't know if I can stand having my brain and body fried twice in one week. Last time I had to "learn" 2/3 of Hua 2-man set #1 in 30 minutes. Can't remember a **** thing of course. :)

[wdl]

Have you guys set a date yet? I might dig my way out of my hole up here in Grainger Co. and show up.

Long: How's Austin? I might be out in Round Rock in the next month or two. I'll look you up if I am. Need BEER!

-Will

[humbleman]

Found out today why weight on end of whip looks like head of snake. Decided to try a reverse between legs and guess exact point where **** thing landed. Sensei Brian would have been pleased. First time, despite his years of exhortations, threats, and pleading that my back went perfectly straight during practice. Won't need to pay for a tattoo now.

[Golden Tiger]

Found out today why weight on end of whip looks like head of snake. Decided to try a reverse between legs and guess exact point where **** thing landed. Sensei Brian would have been pleased. First time, despite his years of exhortations, threats, and pleading that my back went perfectly straight during practice. Won't need to pay for a tattoo now.

I assume that you were doing the 7-link form, but if your back was straight, it shouldn't have hit that hard...hmmm

Sensei Brian?

[Emeraldphoenix]

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

[Judge Pen]

Recently tried to put together a throw down and got more Shaolin-do guys that were prepared to fight than any other style. I know nothing of the style but it seems they are willing fighters.

That's great to hear! I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

[kwaichang]

Judge who is the teacher for the Kingston pike school. I saw Shaolin so who is the teacher etc ??? KC

[Judge Pen]

You mean beside the Rush off the Lovel Road exit? That's Daniel Mattson. I'm there for open gym on Saturday mornings.

[kwaichang]

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

[Golden Tiger]

I've always enjoyed a friendly crossing of hands with as many different practitioners of different styles as I could.

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

[Judge Pen]

Who Taught him KC BTW Congrads:rolleyes: :)

Master Garry is his primary teacher, but he has learned most of his stuff after black from Kevin and Mike.

[Judge Pen]

Thats the best way to get better and gain confidence in your skills. If you fight with the same people and same style all the time, you will stagnate.

And congrats JP...Enjoy...the first 6 months anyway...:D

Thanks GT. I'm hoping to have another Mullins martial artist eventually!

[yu shan]

Hey JP

Looking to get over your way soon to hook up with Oso. You still interested in that spear form? PM me some info.

Hey man, do you know Master James Cook? He is in your area, I would like to meet the man.

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP

Looking to get over your way soon to hook up with Oso. You still interested in that spear form? PM me some info.

Hey man, do you know Master James Cook? He is in your area, I would like to meet the man.

PM will be on its way shortly.

[kwaichang]

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

[Golden Tiger]

JP What level Black belt is he, the teacher at the school; next to the rush ??? KC

"Sifu Daniel Mattson ~ 3rd Degree
Studies exclusively with Elder Master Garry Mullins, Master Kevin, and Master Mike.
Daniel specializes in the Internal Arts such as Tai Chi Ch’uan and Meditation."

[Judge Pen]

KC, why are you asking? Daniel's a nice enough guy. Very detail oriented and an excellent teacher.

[kwaichang]

I may have trained with him, I was in the area and saw the school, I saw Shaolin but no Do so I wasnt sure who taught there. KC:)

[Judge Pen]

Cool. If you were in that area, then you were 2 minutes from my home.

[humbleman]

I put in W.M.D. on the search bar but couldn't find anything. Any suggestions? (the thread shall not die- especially on page 111.

[Mantis Fist]

Not a traditional shaolin style

[kwaichang]

Yeah sure, anyway, Judge you voting on May 2nd remember to tell everyone in the Knoxville area to OUST Judge Swann and vote for David Lee. for 4th circuit court. BTW I may be your neighbor soon E-mail me as to about where you live neighborhood and all KC:o