Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge Pen said: With regard to our interaction with other art. . . . Live and let live. It is arrogant for us to authoritatively state that we know everything about their art because we practice some of it. Look for similarities, appreciate the differences and treat all with respect and an attitude of learning. If we all did that, and talked less about how great we were, I think less people would have a problem with SD.

My Reply: This is sage advice. SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove.

[Golden Tiger]

I play with Fred on a regular basis
:eek: nuff said......


....and am happy to take bets on any SD master who wants to "cross hands" with him.

:rolleyes: smells of "my dad can beat up your dad"..... MST, have you went up against many and/or any or the SD masters? I wonder how you can make an informed statement such as this.



SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove

And yet after more than 1200 posts, you haven't been about to provide it......


I knew better than to get on here but idle minds are tools of the devil.....

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.

Who says I haven't had first hand experience?

Oh, and try the grape Flav-R-Ade, the rat poison is less bitter than in the cherry.

[BM2]

My view is to keep this thread open to avoid another from being started.
MST, could you PM me on who you have seen?

[Golden Tiger]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.


Yes, I did leave that off (probably due to sub-conscious bias) and I agree, very few end up in the ICU.

Who says I haven't had first hand experience?


No one that I know of. That's why I asked. You shouldn't answer a question with a question.

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us?

[MasterKiller]

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us? That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

SD, as we know it in the U.S., is 40 years old.

[kwaichang]

Those who know do not speak, Those who speak usually just show their Ignorance and remove all doubt, Monkey Slap, Also I wonder who Fred Sanford is and where is Lamont KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

KwaiChang, I'm glad you finally realized that. You can go on speaking now, as it is pretty much obvious you do not know...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh, and please KWC, don't play internet tough guy, it's boring, especially when SD is widely known for what it isn't - all the things it claims to be.

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.


:rolleyes: .............

[MasterKiller]

:rolleyes: .............

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:

[kwaichang]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. So you "play" with who else? Give me a brek show a clip of what you can do Monkey boy KC :confused:

[MasterKiller]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. Yeah, grammar is certainly your strong point.

[Golden Tiger]

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:


"As I walk though the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no MS2....GT 3:16

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

[Fred Sanford]

LMAO. The SD losers are at it again.

[Vash]

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

*sniff sniff*

That smells of challenge.

Well, that, and hella much hubris.

[kwaichang]

What school do you come from NO School, No school what style do you study? NO style. The monkey is a coward, so, Remember the way of the monkey is to play the fool and while you laugh at his antics he bites you from behind. Quote from CIRCLE OF IRON. Much truth I think :p KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

Some SD fool said:
"OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know"

REPLY: So, you are telling me you aren't very bright. Your wisdom and maturity continues to impress me Kool-aid Drinker.

[kwaichang]

Nothing of you impresses me kc

[MonkeySlap Too]

Why would you think that I care?

It is very hard for a person to be mature and realize they have been misled. I can understand your anguish, and need to lash out, as your personal investment in your own judgement has been called into question by just about everyone outside your cult.

Be brave. You'll find your way.

[ewallace]

what style do you study? NO style.

Combat Shuai Chiao, KunTao Silat, and other stuff

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know
A lil research and a mouse click or two can prevent asking already answered questions as well as prevent preconceived answers that turn out to be false.
Those who open their mouth...

[kwaichang]

You must feel you have something to prove or you would not keep responding therefore it is reasonable to assume you care. because none of what you say can be proven or disproven. Everything else is conjecture on your part kc :eek:

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC said: "Everything else is conjecture on your part kc"

REPLY: Why do you talk to yourself?

And, no it is not conjecture, it is a logical assumption based on A.) You are an SD 'true-beleiver.' Therefore B.) Whatever you did before wasn't very good/was too hard for you/you did not understand. Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.

Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

[GeneChing]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?

[kwaichang]

HAHA I laugh in your general direction KC

[ewallace]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?
It's like Hell's Kitchen Gene, only with a Shaolin Do twist on it. :)

[GeneChing]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)

[Fred Sanford]

:eek: :eek: LOL :eek: :eek:

[ewallace]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)
Why do you want to learn to cook: To meet girls
Whoever they are they are cool in my book.

[BM2]

This thread is just getting weirder and stranger :p :( But then again, it makes me feel more normal after reading these posts :D

[cerebus]

LOL! Man, I haven't looked at this thread for awhile! I just got too tired of trying to explain things reasonably to people who have their fingers in their ears and keep repeating "na na na na na I can't hear you, I can't hear you, na na na na". :p

I have to admit though, it provided some comic relief to see quaichang asking if maybe one of the de Thouars brothers might look at the martial arts that I do & call it flashy wooshoo :D . quaichang, you might wanna know what I do before making such funny speculations. As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I. But hey, you're a shaolin-d'oh practitioner and you're taught that evryone outside of your art only does WoooShooo, right?

And to see the kind of ridiculous crap you're talking, you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either. You can keep your head stuck firmly in the sand (or wherever you have it stuck) all you wish, but it just won't make your fantasies come true.

Thanks for the laughs though... :D

[kwaichang]

yo cerebus, perhaps you should re read the posts i did not say other cma are wu shu , however, others have. i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.
I read the histories of you guys or girls as much as is there, but not much to read as far as their or your history in martial arts.
I for one do not have my head in the sand. I did quite a bit of research before beginning SD. I for one enjoy it and see CMA in it . I feel those who continue to try to persuade others that what SD people do is not good or CMA, is a very biased and closed minded attitude , at least what some of the SD people do is "good" Martial Arts.
Many of you guys would like to think SD people are not good fighters and you may be partially right but all people dont train to fight. I can fight but I have a "Weird" history in the MA anyway. Well I am sure many of you guys will clip this post to pieces and use small exerpts to prove a point, that also shows immaturity, but go for it.
To conclude I would like for some one to prove a point with research instead of opinions like SD people cant fight or it doesnt look a certain way and cant therefore be CMA or from the Shaolin Temples with this I open the board for proof or links to sites or what ever. Thank You KC :) :D

[cerebus]

Well, as I've posted on this thread (several times) and on other threads (maybe several hundred times), I have no doubts that many SDers can fight, I have no doubt that SD is a good martial art in it's own way, BUT that doesn't mean SD is traditional CMA (it isn't). The research demonstrating this point has been posted more times than I even care to try counting, but it obviously is useless to continue trying to lay the facts out (and probably just as useless for me to even bother posting this in the first place) because SD people generally don't want to know the truth, they want to read only that which supports their story (hence my comment about heads being in the sand).

Anyway, ignorance is bliss, and some people just want to be happy, not informed. Don't worry, be happy (you will anyway). ;)

[Fred Sanford]

i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.

It's no secret that chinese people ended up in indonesia and brought kung fu with them. Your styles made up stories and elaborations are what is disputed.

You should buy a video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about, it might open your eyes. (but probably won't). And maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about what people who you have never met would think.

[kwaichang]

I try not to make assumptions but when i attempt to open a dialogue there seems to be a reluctance from some to communicate . Instead I am asked to go to the bay area and put someone in ICU. How mature is that and how does that prove your or any ones side? I assume nothing, I too seek the truth , but it seems all you guys want is to prove how good you are with semantics. You "say" very little.
Or some of you try to project the persona of some undefeatable God. I have communicated privately with some and they are cordial and true Bushi. Yet no one has proven anything. I research all of the references that I can and there are only assumptions on your part that the "stories" are not true.
SD is a very succesful school and style, that is a good thing. I am sorry that you project the air of Jealosy with your statements perhaps not of the style though, I assume you are happy with what you do, though you dont seem to be. I wish you would try to fight another battle Fred S. I think you would have more success. KC Peace be with you. :o

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC, you sound like a chung moo guy, you run out of places to run, so you cite 'jealousy' - no, no, it's incredulity at the stupid things you guys say. I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

remember, if you didn't claim to be all that and a bag of chips, no one would care. But when you read the SD stuff, and god help us, actually see SD, it's pretty obvious how wacked out some of you folks are.

As for Fred inviting you to the ICU, beleive you were the one offering that opportunnity, he's just happy to oblige you.

Dude, you are seriously misguided. You're in Austin right? Why don't you go check out Paul Geralds Shua Chiao school. Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

Oh, and I'mnot putting Paul on the spot. He's a true CMA player, and will play just for fun.

[Fred Sanford]

So now KC after saying the pm's would stay between us you brought things onto the public forum. Serious lack of integrity. You brought up the ICU first in a post, little punk. But while it's out here, the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

[kwaichang]

I never said who invited me to ICU and you are the one who wrote you had nothing to say to me,Fred. I attempted to be as vague as possible. The only time I mentioned your name was at the end of the post.
You know I for one am not concerned I have fought guys like you in the 70's I won a few I lost a few no big deal. If I went to Pauls School and had a "friendly" match and won all you guys would say is it was due to my past experience or something.
I also show respect to those who return the favor Fred. I have not insulted you on a personal level, or what you do, what ever it is, also if you reread the post about the ICU it says,
"Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage" . KC However I had a couple in mind at that time.And I should not speak for them.

You seem to be a very arrogant individual and perhaps missed the one main teaching of Martial Arts to be Humble. I am sure you will site something about our style of SD saying most comprehensive or something like that. But that doesnt matter and oh I have fought many kinds of fighters and did ok but did I use shotokan punch or was it boxing no wait it was Shuri Te no no I know it was?????????? See what I mean. KC :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

You guys REALLY need to get a hobbie.....fussing over the weekend instead of getting out and enjoying the sunshine....darn shame.

Let's see....where to begin?

Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.
Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

Calling SD "Mullet Fist"? Yes, you DO need to find some adults to chat with. Perhaps the playground mentality might wear off.

As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I.

And this means something? I checked out some the the clips on their website (I think) and while decent, I saw nothing extraordinary. The Pi' chaun looked over extended and the applications were very basic. But since MS2 pointed it out, I guess it means something.

you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either.

I have asked a few times but all I get is "key board kung fu". Heck, I even asked to see the legend in action so that I may gain insight into his KFO rep but to no avail.

SD people generally don't want to know the truth

Truth is biased by perception, fact is not.

I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

40 years of teaching in the US.
2 TV shows, two books, countless articles written about SD.
THOUSANDS of well trained, satisfied students.
Schools all over the US.
Students that have stayed with and trained in SD for longer that most of you have been alive.
A continued supply of material to which one can disect and pull new techniques.

Shall I go on......

Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

:rolleyes: Sending KC to someone else to test his skills MS2? See 1st quote and.

Serious lack of integrity. :eek:

the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

See 1st quote again..... :rolleyes:


Well, this was fun. Took me through my first cup of coffee but now it's time to work. Please post some more though, I'll be taking a break around noon-ish and would love the comic relief.

[Jhapa]

video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about,

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.

[Golden Tiger]

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.


Excelent idea.

[sean_stonehart]

Excelent idea.

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!

[Golden Tiger]

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!


I doudt they would be interested in posting such vids since with the exception of a few (myself included)that post here, they could care less what a bunch of keyboard comandos think. That and the fact that no matter who we posted, SD or not, it would be looked at with a bias and ripped apart...simple as that.

I simply was interested is seeing what KunTao looks like that everyone refers too.

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.

Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......

[kwaichang]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

[MasterKiller]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.

[kwaichang]

I thought Uncle Bill was Mr Frenchs boss HAHA I thought since he went to China with the SD people it was Elder Master Bill Leonard KC ;)

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Can Somebody tell me how I can unsubscribe to this STUPID thread!! The replies keep showing up in my e-mail inbox and I can't seem to do it in my userCP. Please make it stop!!

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.


Yep I was... several years, couple of black belt ranks & I chose to leave in order to do something that fit me better as a person & a MAist. My previous teacher & I are on great terms, I train regularly with one of my former classmates & we get along smashingly.

I would like to see more just for simple personal edification. I've seen a smattering of folks from Ky & Tx on the China trip mentioned below & I gotta tell ya... I was underwhelmed. So with that in mind I was wanting to see what the SD heirarchy considered "good" nowadays.

Then have a Kuntao exponent also on video running to compare the two since there was mention of doing a comparison.

That's all.


Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......


No actually I avoided him as best I could. There reached a point on the trip when the Ky/Tx vs Ga tensions became a little much for my taste so I didn't hang around people I didn't sweat with on a daily basis, just to avoid possible friction.

I met several people on the trip that I truly enjoyed hanging with & would again in a minute... however that number was significantly smaller than those I wouldn't care to ever again.

[sean_stonehart]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

No but I trained his nephew & his wife for a while ... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm alive & breathing just fine, thanks.

[BM2]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.
Glad someone else caught that.
Also it should be added about the names being tossed around that are not even posting on here. :rolleyes:

[BM2]

And the last time I heard people talking like this was in Jr. High, oh, it is called Middle School now :o

[shen ku]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

[MonkeySlap Too]

So you have people you must call 'senior master so-so' or they will beat you up?

Wow. That is so.... stupid.

Now back to talking to adults....

[sean_stonehart]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

Chris indeed you were & are still. Can you eat Chinese food yet?? ;) :eek:

[shen ku]

thanks sean ,,,,,,,just the rice ,,,,,,,i lost about 10 pounds on that trip

[humbleman]

Burma and watch cobra woman mutter inaudiable invocations to ground and kiss 15 foot cobra on head and walk away unscathed (saw this in 1936 vintage national geographic film)

[humbleman]

Sad, sad pretty Jazz...poor Marie crying for her city...

[humbleman]

...doing Kung Fu, Fat Boy. When I miss, you can sidekick.

[Judge Pen]

:confused: WTF?

[Golden Tiger]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.......

[SimonM]

88 pages! Over 1300 posts!

This is the mother of all threads!

Christ on a crutch!

Buddha on the bottom of my shoe!

Holy fooking sh!t!

Perhaps it's time to call it a day and agree: some people like SD and some people don't. ;)

Post 1313. Am I not lucky?

[humbleman]

...the Bozo have the last word, and it looks like it might be me. Got me this time, didn't you, Ba-Gua Lady? Dear God, I miss her.

[Ou Ji]

C'mon man, we can make it to the 100 page mark. Let's go.

[tattoed monk]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

[lxtruong]

I must post. postedey post post.

[humbleman]

I don't want much, the good Lords earth beneath my feet, a gentle touch, to know one girl in life is sweet and good, there ain't no doubt, I'm talkin' about... I think I found out first hand just why Deep Purple covered that song way back in 1972...

[Judge Pen]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

[sean_stonehart]

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

[Judge Pen]

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

Nah, no sting intended. Just some advice from experience. If one wants to jump on the SD merry-go-round then fine, but I'm reminded of the bard when it comes to SD debates: Full of sound and fury but signifying nothing.

[MasterKiller]

I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work. Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

[Judge Pen]

I know. ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

Funniest thing Ive seen in awhile was "mullet fist" Bwahahahahah

I can't beleive the number of pages

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Sin does need to work on his code fu a little, though...

http://www.sinthe.com/


The colors....the colors...

[Judge Pen]

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

I don't get mad. Your opinion is in line with many here. If it mattered to me I would quit.

[yutyeesam]

I'm guessing that most of the TCMA community looks at SD with a raised eyebrow. Just a guess.

But it doesn't really matter. We live in society with tons of MMA and XMA that any debate around SD is basically moot.

I've gotten so many Karate-cized Kung-Fu students in the past, where because of the wide bow stance that they learned, that getting used to shifting from Seiping Ma to Gung Ma and vice versa took several classes to understand. The folks who come from SD backgrounds to me are certainly no exception.

Not that it's any better or worse, it's just different. The power generation ideas are more Japanese in nature, from what I've seen. Which is why you don't see many Asian masters of this art! :D j/k

There. I've contributed to the 100 post mark! Keep it going!

[SimonM]

Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

I don't even have an opinion on SD (having nothing to go by but this endless argument) and I like to pop by occasionally - even if just to curse the madness of the thread that wouldn't die! :p :D

[Ou Ji]

The thread that wouldn't die. The deadliest Dim Mak can't stop it now.

So, any new sightings to prove the existense of Shaolin Do?
Mullet shots don't count. No doctored photos either.

Here's one showing the Shaolin Do 'Ride The Tiger' (http://www.actarus.it/trash/watson/Bigfoot/bigfoot_footage3.jpg) pose.

Debunk that you skeptics!

[octagonal raven]

shaolin-do looks to have a totally made up history and well I don't want to totally dog something out without having seen it first hand. I do BJJ anyway so what do I know about kung fu? It looks highly suspect though and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Ride the tiger? more like 'ride the beyatch' oh I'm sorry was su kong a male? I forget.

[Ou Ji]

octagonal raven
Serious question for you. Why are you here?

Just wondering why so many non-cma guys feel compelled to comment about styles they know little or nothing about. Anyone have an answer for this?

[Ou Ji]

D a m n, I'm trying to hit page 90. Maybe this one will do it.

[Ou Ji]

Or this one.

Shaolin Do
Shaolin Doh!
Shaolin Dough
Shaolin Doe

[Ou Ji]

Come on 90. Here we go. 90 coming up.

[Ou Ji]

Crapped out again. Ok, got to take a break and rest.

[Ou Ji]

Hey, I just noticed my post count isn't changing. I've been stuck on 128 for quite awhile. Same with you guys.

Maybe Shaolin Do posts don't count as real comments. Or we're in the Shaolin Do Twilight Zone or something. What if we get stuck here and can't get back to normal posts.

I feel the walls moving in. Is it getting stuffy in here?

H E L P !!!!!

[BlueTravesty]

there would be a certain sense of ironic justice if posts on this thread didn't count :D

[BentMonk]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

[octagonal raven]

Serious question for you. Why are you here?

I used to do some kung fu, but at some point I realized that it wasn't too realistic for the most part. I've seen enough to know what's legit and what isn't. I won't name names but I've seen some of the people with the big names in the magazines and been to their schools and not been impressed. Shaolin-do is definately crap, sorry I guess the truth hurts.

[SimonM]

Octagonal Raven: I've seen MMA/RBSD/"Dark Arts" Masters I could wipe the floor with and I've seen Gong Fu masters who come from law enforcement backgrounds, have HAD to use martial arts in self defense regularly and who (to this day) stress test every single technique and require that their students stress test it. Sweeping generalizations such as suggesting that I used to do kung fu, but at some point I realized it wasn't too realistic are the first stones on the path to trolldom. Had you said "I had an experience with a bad kwoon and decided to take MMA because I found a good school" you would probably be more warmly recieved. None of us here really support the image of the stereotypical "SPJ dance = 133t warrior" that many people wrongly believe dominates the Gong Fu world yet most of us at least include Gong Fu amoung our repitoires even if it is not the only martial art we have practiced.

At my kwoon they teach northern arts, southern arts and western boxing. Where does one begin and the other end? I honestly don't know. Does it matter? Not in the slightest. Gong Fu just means hard work.

[humbleman]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Judge Pen]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Too bad that photo is of George Clooney from "O' Brother Where Art Thou?" I wonder if he cameoed in NBK's?

But thanks for playing.

[Fu-Pow]

yeah....and Shaolin Do SuXors! :mad:

[BlueTravesty]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! :eek:

must stop this change... kung-fu school shirt and pants... turning into... a gi.... forms I first learned... turning into katas... talking... in... labored, broken english...

[SimonM]

One thing I like about doing Gong Fu at a college. There ain't no uniform at all. The closest thing to it is that a lot of us wear adidas track pants. What can I say? They are well made and not too expensive.

[BlueTravesty]

agreed :) we just wear a shirt with the school's logo and a pair of Fist brand pants (available from Jonie Uniforms.) Sifu has mentioned that something more elaborate would be nice for tournaments, but this is as close to a "uniform" as he's comfortable with for the time being.

[SimonM]

That (plus a sash) was the uniform at my old school... Of course substitute the NBDMA logo but you get my drift. ;)

I miss the guys at the Kwoon sometimes. Dave Kim, my favorite old sparring partner, just got back from Shaolin NY; apparently he is much faster now. I expect that with this leg-focussed training regimen I am currently embarking on my speed will also probably increase (along with the deftness of my footwork) so I am looking foreward to having a go with him in a few years when I get back but...

Well...

You get pretty close to people at a kwoon...

You sweat, learn and occasionally bleed together. It forms a camraderie strong enough at times that it is unsurprising that in ancient times students of the same Sifu were called brothers.

Let's see if we can bump this thread up to 91....

[Judge Pen]

Let's see if we can bump this thread up to 91....

Why not make this thread a sticky? That way, whenever someone wants to bring up the same old SD arguments, we can re-direct them here. :D

[tattoed monk]

I used to do some kung fu, but at some point I realized that it wasn't too realistic for the most part. I've seen enough to know what's legit and what isn't. I won't name names but I've seen some of the people with the big names in the magazines and been to their schools and not been impressed. Shaolin-do is definately crap, sorry I guess the truth hurts.
Have you even participated fully in a Shaolin Do program or is your opinion based on your preconceived ideas of what shaolin is?

[tattoed monk]

One thing I like about doing Gong Fu at a college. There ain't no uniform at all. The closest thing to it is that a lot of us wear adidas track pants. What can I say? They are well made and not too expensive.
The "GI" is used because of it's durability. If you look close enough at the Shaolin monks that perform world wide their "uniform " looks almost exactly like the uniforms worn in Shaolin Do! The body of material taught within the Shaolin do curriculum is enough to give credit to the legitimacy which the school claims. Never judge a book by it's cover only by it's contents. The belt ranking system that is used is a modern inovation to gauge and keep track of a students progress. Everything in life has to adapt to change or it will fade away and die!

[BlueTravesty]

The "GI" is used because of it's durability. If you look close enough at the Shaolin monks that perform world wide their "uniform " looks almost exactly like the uniforms worn in Shaolin Do! The body of material taught within the Shaolin do curriculum is enough to give credit to the legitimacy which the school claims. Never judge a book by it's cover only by it's contents.

I can't argue the gi's durability, and the Fist pants recommended by my sifu are about the same kind of material, only with elastic waist and cuffs (and a little pocket on the inside.)

What I WILL argue is that the monk uniforms look ANYTHING like the gi. I've seen this argument on one of the SD schools' website (http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/uniforms.shtml) and I really can't say I agree. Yes, in pictures like this, it bears a passing resemblance to the gi. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/0404_Shaolin_monk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php%3****icle%3D588&h=468&w=250&sz=18&tbnid=bndSav23kPoJ:&tbnh=125&tbnw=66&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) However, in pictures like this, (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://newsletter.faluninfo.at/pictures/n21/shaolin_monk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://newsletter.faluninfo.at/n21/a333.html&h=600&w=400&sz=42&tbnid=4Aj1zb8Qn6QJ:&tbnh=133&tbnw=88&hl=en&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)
or this, (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ukchinesemusic.com/Shaolin_Monk_CY.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ukchinesemusic.com/CY-activities.html&h=1194&w=808&sz=80&tbnid=Cfg3rwkGPqUJ:&tbnh=150&tbnw=101&hl=en&start=17&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) and this one, (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:4PSMTIfckRwJ:web.tiscali.it/kabuki/Cultura/Shaolin/monk7.jpg) the difference is more pronounced, and it's all the same uniform being worn different ways.
Even barring the obvious difference in color (Monks typically used Saffron or Tumeric to dye their robes, and then there are the grey uniforms as well.) not to mention the leggings, the only similarity between the two is the fact that the folds overlap in the front in both, and they do so in different ways (the monk uniform closes at the side around the upper rib, where the gi closes further down around the hips.)

Since you mentioned it though, I found this quote rather interesting .

"...those that practiced outside of the monasteries wore their every day clothing. They did not have a special uniform to go out and practice in. Sams are a creation of the movie industry and what it wants to present as a traditional uniform."

I'm not sure what Mr. Tony Gray means by "Sams" but I've got a feeling he means the typical "Kung-fu" jacket, usually black with white trim. If this is the case, he is correct in that those who practiced non-shaolin forms of kung-fu wore their regular clothing. This clothing in some parts of China included "frog-buttons" and the so-called "Mandarin Collar." In fact this form of clothing was quite popular around Shanghai, which is why Shanghai's Chin Woo (http://www.chinwoo.com/) (Ging Wu) Athletic Association chose it as the basis of their dress code. Can you guess what colors they used? If you guessed black with white trim, you are correct!

The assertion that this uniform is a creation of the movie industry is false, however, considering that while Chin Woo (http://www.chinwoo.com/) is featured in Bruce Lee's "The Chinese Connection" (known outside of the US as "Fist of Fury.") as well as Jet Li's "Fist of Legend" it is in fact a real institute which is very popular in Hong Kong as well as having a branches in the U.S., Canada, Europe, South america, etc. I don't know if all the branches today have kept that particular uniform, but I am sure some have.


So what's the point? Is a gi a valid choice of uniform for a kung fu class? Sure, but so are long-sleeved/sleeveless uniforms with frog-buttons, or even a tank-top and Adidas brand track pants- if you are doing true kung fu, it will show in your technique, no matter what you wear. Does a gi look like a monk's uniform? It bears some resemblance, but then, so does my terry-cloth bath robe (which, by the way, was made in China.) Is Shaolin-Do a legitimate branch of Shaolin? I don't see why not, since many other non-Shaolin arts also have Shaolin roots; Long Fist, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Karate and Kenpo being chief among them. Will I stop asking questions with prepared answers so I can wake up at a decent time tomorrow? Well... uhh, yeah, I guess so. G'nite :)

[Judge Pen]

That's a very thoughtful well thought-out post and I agree with it 100%. Incidently, the SD post explaining the use of the gi by Master Gray was written, in part, as a response to some SD schools switching to the frog-button unifoms.

The dress doesn't make the art. Gi or no, SD is what it is.

[lxtruong]

All of you non-SDers. Let me ask you this:

Suppose tomorrow, your teacher decides to switch uniforms. Let's say from whatever you wear to a gi (assuming you don't wear a gi already). Do you follow his example? Do you say "you're a big phony, I'm outta here"? Which do you do.

[PangQuan]

Question. There is a shaolin do school in my area. I checked them out, they are not recognized by the shaolin do society. Where does that put them? Phoney or just un recognized?

My teacher teaches some shaolin as well as other various styles, not to mention hes a total gangster, so im not interested in switching schools, just curious of where this school stands in the eyes of the shaolin do society...

[Judge Pen]

Question. There is a shaolin do school in my area. I checked them out, they are not recognized by the shaolin do society. Where does that put them? Phoney or just un recognized?

My teacher teaches some shaolin as well as other various styles, not to mention hes a total gangster, so im not interested in switching schools, just curious of where this school stands in the eyes of the shaolin do society...

The SDA (shaolin-do association) is an organization that provides a club membership for a fee. You get discounts on certain seminars and tournament fees if you are a member and you attend an SDA sanctioned event. The members of the SDA are primarily found in Kentucky and Texas.

Schools that are not a member of the SDA are not any less legitimate in the eyes of SD. My teacher is a founding member of the SDA, but none of his students are current members. As such, we are not officially recognized as an SDA school. It doesn't affect our relationship with GM The'.

[humbleman]

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back. I think it involved using accupressure points and arteries in various combinations and at various times of day according to flow to do some extremely ugly things, supposedly going back to the day when one would basically mete out a death sentence with their use. :( And, no offense to Judge Penn on the choreographed fight scene, I watched the Kentucky educational T.V. series on tape and some of the choreographed 2-man weapon sets required as much skill maybe more than a lot of katas. )As far as uniforms etc. who the heck cares? It's the soul of what is being taught, whether it works, whether it develops the soul of the student that matters, in my humble underbelt on-thy-belly-shalt-thou-crawl-opinion.

[Judge Pen]

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back.

I think that he did a demonstration, but I'm not aware of any seminars on Judge's Pen. Of course my screen name had nothing to do with SD or GM Sin. It had more to do with my profession.

[cbishop]

Have you even participated fully in a Shaolin Do program or is your opinion based on your preconceived ideas of what shaolin is?

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

this is an insult to all hung ga players.

exibit B
bagua (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/SnakePaKuaGrooms(shaolindo).avi)

all i can say is "OH MY GOD" :rolleyes:


going to shaolindo to learn hung ga or bagua is like trying to get
a good steak at mcdonalds.

[PangQuan]

bad links.

media player does not play when you copy paste to address bar.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge Pen is not real.




















In the Buddhist sense :)

[cbishop]

they're not links. they're urls. and they are correct.

[SimonM]

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

this is an insult to all hung ga players.


That was really ugly.


exibit B
bagua (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/SnakePaKuaGrooms(shaolindo).avi)

all i can say is "OH MY GOD" :rolleyes:


That was supposed to be Ba Gua? Ok, I don't practice the art myself but I've seen it performed enough times to know it doesn't look like that!!! Eurgh!


My question is: is this typical of SD or are these just two really attrocious players?

[BlueTravesty]

Thank you for the perspective on Mr. Gray's uniform article. I was wondering which critics he was referring to, though I didn't imagine it would be someone within his organization.

I hope my response to tatooed monk did not seem overbearing in light of this. To tell the truth, the main reason for putting it together in the first place was to help clear some writer's block (it worked, something that neither febreeze nor pseudoephedrine can do; seperately or in combination. trust me.)

[PangQuan]

thanks for the fix.

i could only find one positive thing to say regarding either one of those. The man in the bagua video had fast hands...

i cant even manage to come up with an answer as to why that tiger/crane was so bad. very similar to a section in a tiger/crane i know, but he had no technique at all. I wonder if he knows any of the applications to what he is doing...

bagua? hmmm...no...

[PangQuan]

i saw some of those shaolin do guys at the park one day...they didnt do much while our class was there filming, but i saw a bit.

one guy seemed like he may have had some mean kicks, and the other guy used a dao, and a kwan dao. his movements reminded me more of japanese influence with the dao, no tight wraps, not many circular movements. and the kwan dao....lets just say its not like our kwan dao.

i wont place a judgement on a martial style, because thats wrong. We all know, have heard, and have said, that is the practitioner not the style....


we wear kung fu pants, kwons, and tee shirts with the Wu character on the back and our school name and moto on the front in small characters.

the kung fu pants are very tough, and i normally wear tee shirts out side school, even i wear kwons. Basically we dress like normal people do. with kung fu style.

i dont seem to understand the terminology mixture in SD. It confuses me.

i dont really want to sift through 90 pages of shaolin do material looking, so if possible would someone post a vid of a shaolin do, um kata, that the feel is a good representation?

[Golden Tiger]

Suppose tomorrow, your teacher decides to switch uniforms. Let's say from whatever you wear to a gi (assuming you don't wear a gi already). Do you follow his example? Do you say "you're a big phony, I'm outta here"? Which do you do.

Yes, I would.... ;) j/k

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back.

Yes it is but no he hasn't.

I think that he did a demonstration, but I'm not aware of any seminars on Judge's Pen.

It was a set of steel chop sticks, not a "Judge Pin " per se...although.....

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss..

Then don't be. You should never do something that you are sorry for. Btw, I can't open the links but if they are t4he vids I am thinking of, yep, they suck. But for the record, I once heard a cover of "Stairway to Heaven" that sucked too.....

so if possible would someone post a vid of a shaolin do, um kata, that the feel is a good representation?

I soon will be able to transfer vid to files so I will see what I can do. (JP, I remeber you wanted some things, care to refresh my memories?)

[Judge Pen]

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

I remember that video bothered me. I know this form. I play it differently. I've done it in front of people who have an independent understanding of Hung Gar and they told me that it's not bad, but they believe that Hung Gar plays it differently than I do. So, the point, I guess, is that SD's Tiger/Crane is different than mosts (no surprises), but is good in it's own way. I've never had anyone that really knows Hung Gar tell me how, though. I don't think that video is a great represntation though.

Sean, I'll step up to the plate. With my teacher's permission, I'll do the same portion of this form and post it here if you will film it and help me post it (I'm severely technology challenged). I'm not saying it's good, but I believe it to be better. I'll even critique myself as to what I think I do well and what I should do better. I've only had the form for about 9 months and I'm still polishing up various elements of it.

Oh, I might as well put up San Njie here to as I promised Vash that months ago and never was able to have it filmed.

Now, let's hope I don't turn into hedge (bullshido reference) and say I'll post and never do. It will be a while before I can get down to Atlanta and film and get Sean to post) Work, closing on house, holidays etc., but eventually. . . .

GT, PM sent.

[cbishop]

much respect for stepping up to the plate there. mind you that my grievance
is with misrepresentation of the name shaolin and teaching of training methods
which are not well understood. i have heard (from trusted sources) that most
shaolin do guys do train application and spend a good deal of time hashing out
those ideas in sparring sessions.

i think shaolin do practicioners would do well to find out how these forms
are trained and applied from someone who actually trains it as a primary art
and not a hodge podge of different arts and energies. otherwise.. as
enrique would say, "your sh!t is fake!!!"

in regards to the Gis. judo gi is great for throwing. very sturdy.
i've also found that a $25 d!ckies jacket is very sturdy and will do just
about the same job for most guys. (not judoka of course)
my point is that equally suitable uniforms could be arranged with western
style clothing (or middle eastern for that matter). so, why choose japanese?
it's not for me.. but, hung yi xiang taught his chinese xing yi students wearing
a japanese gi :rolleyes: and he WAS a bad@ss.

did hedge back out on you too ?? i drove all the way to austin from
okc, and the little punk wouldn't meet up. didn't stop him from talking sh!t though.

[SimonM]

i cant even manage to come up with an answer as to why that tiger/crane was so bad. very similar to a section in a tiger/crane i know, but he had no technique at all. I wonder if he knows any of the applications to what he is doing...



It's similar enough in outward appearance to the first section of Tiger and Crane as taught at my Kwoon in Canada to be recognizeable but, I agree, it was like the bloke knew no application at all. He also had no stability, he wobbled all over the place kind of aimlessly.

Again though I must say that I am unwilling to judge a whole school off of two short vids. I look foreward to Judge Penn's take. :D

[cbishop]

judge pen, sorry to reply to your pm here.. but everytime i write a big fat
pm response my browser locks up, and i lose everything.. :confused:

i'm not in austin, but oklahoma city. i just drive down to texas to find
other fighters of various schools to mix it up with. my older brother teaches
in san antonio, and he's my main source regarding ShaolinDo(n't).

sorry so short. my pm were much longer.. promise! :D

i'm betting that once you find sumdumgoy, you'll drop the gi AND the shaolindo
name. ;)

[Judge Pen]

:D I don't wear a gi anymore. My teacher's schools wears the frog button tops for a formal uniform.

[MonkeySlap Too]

JP - how the Tiger/Crane is played differently is pretty easy guess - the SD method probably does not have any of the 'hay gung' skills distinctive to Hung Gar. Kind of like if you learned it out of a book without ever seeing it live...


I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD' - as we have yet to see it, even in the clips from Sin The'!

[Golden Tiger]

I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD' - as we have yet to see it, even in the clips from Sin The'!

"good SD" is an oxymoron silly boy........ How about some exciting MS2 clips?

[Judge Pen]

I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD'

I never said it would be good. I said that it was certainly different than the clip and, in my opinion, better. I'm not couting on changing anyone's minds here, but I'm one of the most vocal SDers here so why shouldn't I step up and show what I have. I'm average at best, but I work hard and I'm stubborn.

[sean_stonehart]

:D
Sean, I'll step up to the plate. With my teacher's permission, I'll do the same portion of this form and post it here if you will film it and help me post it (I'm severely technology challenged). I'm not saying it's good, but I believe it to be better. I'll even critique myself as to what I think I do well and what I should do better. I've only had the form for about 9 months and I'm still polishing up various elements of it.

Oh, I might as well put up San Njie here to as I promised Vash that months ago and never was able to have it filmed.

Now, let's hope I don't turn into hedge (bullshido reference) and say I'll post and never do. It will be a while before I can get down to Atlanta and film and get Sean to post) Work, closing on house, holidays etc., but eventually. . . .

GT, PM sent.

You're covered. Get me the initial media & I'll take it from there. :D

[Judge Pen]

What kind of camera would be easiset? I don't have one and I will need to borrow of buy a camera anyway.

[Starchaser107]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

[Judge Pen]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

I like you reference to Lianne Lin. You have my respect for that my friend.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey, I wasn't paying close attention. Your own clip, eh? I'd like to see that - and I'm not being sarcastic here either.

[PangQuan]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

[Okami]

Yet deployments and life have caused me to leave the boards for some time and I find that NOTHING has changed.

SD arguments will go on after all who started this mess have turned to dust and noone even remembers why we started this argument in the first place.

[SimonM]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

AZN GRLZ is totally going straight onto my MP3 player! That was definately worth the 1 minute dl man.

[SimonM]

AZN GRLZ is totally going straight onto my MP3 player! That was definately worth the 1 minute dl man.


Ok, how do I get a copy. I have no credit card and I guess it's not a free dl, just a stream. :eek:

[Starchaser107]

Ok, how do I get a copy. I have no credit card and I guess it's not a free dl, just a stream. :eek:

It's a free download, also streaming.

I'm just trying to get it out there.

Peace.

and thanks to everyone that checked it out.

[Judge Pen]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

Don't get too excited. I haven't even bought a video camera yet so it will be a while before they get shot, converted and posted. I'm an attorney, so everything is delayed in my world.

Starchaser, you're just gained 1000000+ street credits. The theme sone for yellow fever men everywhere.

[BM2]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

Did anyone else think that JP was being pimped?

[SimonM]

Starchaser, you're just gained 1000000+ street credits. The theme sone for yellow fever men everywhere.

Hell yeah man! Take a peek at my blog thread. I was listening to that song a lot on the busride home. :DLink to my blog thread. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38364)

[Starchaser107]

again respect due to everyone for checking it out.
Godbless.

[Vash]

ST107 -

Both were hot.

In particular, I liked Fu Jow.

Though "Sometimes" is still on my MP3 player, and I'm wary of adding new stuff, both made the cut.

Absolutely excellent.

*waits for CD release*

[SimonM]

Actually, yeah, Fu Jow was pretty good too but Azn Grlz was just so fitting to my weekend. As I got in no fights Fu Jow was not so. ;)

Tell you what; next time I need to break a blokes arm I'll stick that one on the MP3 player afterward. ;)

Just kidding; both songs will find their way onto my MP3 player at various times but considering that my player is 128 megs and I have a couple gigs of music I change up what I am playing all the time.

[DrunkenMaster]

Just a quick FYI on Shaoln Do and their Tai Chi, specifically the "Yang Style Tai Chi 64 Move Long Form" that is taught in their level 1 internal program.

(BTW - I searched the forum and did not find this specific info...I apologize if it is repetitive...)

The form they teach as the "Yang Style Tai Chi 64 Move Long Form" appears to be a variation of the Yang Short Form developed by Chen Man Ching, which he called the 37 step form. The sequence of steps is identical, the difference being in how some of the movements are performed (ex: ward off / roll back, cloud hands, etc.). There is also a difference in stance / leg position.

Master Ching shortened the form to make it easier to teach and perform. There is an abundance of material on master Ching on the ionternet for those that are interested. Master Ching taught throughout southeast asia....

The form I learned is the Chen Man Ching variation, not the Tai Chi 24.

The only video performance I personally have of the 37 form is a video called "Tai Chi for Health - Yang Short Form" by Terence Dunn. The sequence of movements is exactly as I learned, although the movements themselves differ somewhat.

DM

[humbleman]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Too bad that photo is of George Clooney from "O' Brother Where Art Thou?" I wonder if he cameoed in NBK's?

But thanks for playing.
I would be remiss if I didn't take this oppurtunity to thank Grandmaster Sin The for the ride of a lifetime. And, to a certain Erie PA Grandmaster whom without having had him put my life through the purifying fires of all Buddhist and Taoist and Western hells all rolled into one, the journey, yet unended, would never have been possible.:eek: :eek: :eek: And, with great respect for Judge Penn, I wish to state that I was far from playing, too much blood, sweat, bruises, and tears for that. And the lesson is only beginning. The greatest gift sensei Brian gave me was that he taught me how to learn. Anything. As in give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. A bit scary being on your own, but I'm a big boy now.

[MasterKiller]

Are you the same Humbleman that keeps getting schooled for trolling mma.tv?

[kwaichang]

Well I have not posted in quite a while so you guys are still at it I see. Well I guess the Late Bruce Lee said it best " Time well wasted is time not wasted at all" BTW where is this clip of Tiger Crane. I trained with an instructor of TC and White Crane in the late 70's and early 80's I would like to see it Thanks KC:)

[Judge Pen]

KC, here is the link to the Tiger-Crane clip they were referring to:


tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

Well, apparently, the link doesn't work anymore. Try here:

http://164.58.65.137/media/shaolindo!haha/

[David Jamieson]

ok, that was weird.... to say the least.

That guy's a novice though apparently, maybe he's just trying too hard to go fast?

[Judge Pen]

ok, that was weird.... to say the least.

That guy's a novice though apparently, maybe he's just trying too hard to go fast?

He wasn't a novice to SD, but probably a novice to Tiger/Crane. That form is not normally taught until 3rd black level (at least 8-10 years in the system although it varies from school to school). Regardless, someone with that experience should know better. As I said earlier in the thread, I learned this form within the past year, and I was tught this section vastly different than the guy in the clip.

Oh, I don't know the guy, but I heard that he used to brag about having really fast hands so . . . . :rolleyes: Yeah, he was trying to go too fast.

[lxtruong]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

[Judge Pen]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

Well, it got started and then the guy that was doing it for us had some personal issues come up and he hasn't been able to finish it.

As for TC and when it is taught, it does vary from school to school. Master Garry has some hand-written notes from GM The' regarding the required rank advancement for each rank and T/C is taught in third. That's what we go by, but it does vary.

What do you guys have to learn for 2nd? We learn 3 jians, 5 elements of Hsing-Ie, 12 Hsing Ie animals, Linkage, and Hua Tao 5 animal play (live, dead, and sien tien chi).

In third it's 4 Roads of Hua, 2 Hua two-man sets, Tiger-Crane, Double-broad, Double-hook, and 9 section whip chain.

Is Master Joe's curriculum different?

[lxtruong]

Well, it got started and then the guy that was doing it for us had some personal issues come up and he hasn't been able to finish it.

As for TC and when it is taught, it does vary from school to school. Master Garry has some hand-written notes from GM The' regarding the required rank advancement for each rank and T/C is taught in third. That's what we go by, but it does vary.

What do you guys have to learn for 2nd? We learn 3 jians, 5 elements of Hsing-Ie, 12 Hsing Ie animals, Linkage, and Hua Tao 5 animal play (live, dead, and sien tien chi).

In third it's 4 Roads of Hua, 2 Hua two-man sets, Tiger-Crane, Double-broad, Double-hook, and 9 section whip chain.

Is Master Joe's curriculum different?

Haha. It would probably do you guys good to at least put in enough information for prospective students. There's absolutely nothing there. I'm sure it's not good for recruiting students.

We follow what Master Leonard does: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Master Sin just changed up our internal curriculum, are you changing yours too?

[SimonM]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

Ayah! If I were in Shaolin Do I'd be doing Black Belt material. What about Jian training when do they start that? And do they teach Iron Thread at all? Those were the three things I was working on when I left Canada (plus another Qigong form and an elbow form)...

[Judge Pen]

Haha. It would probably do you guys good to at least put in enough information for prospective students. There's absolutely nothing there. I'm sure it's not good for recruiting students.

We follow what Master Leonard does: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Master Sin just changed up our internal curriculum, are you changing yours too?

Well, you can cut the guy some slack, the water-heater in the apartment above him exploded and the ceiling fell in on his apartment. :rolleyes:

As long as it's in Sin The's hand-written notes and he approves it, then I suppose it ok, right? And that list you linked to includes material that may or may not be taught out at that level. I know you guys don't test on 16 forms from 3rd to 4th. The question is what are the standard forms that you guys test on from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 3rd to 4th?

Our internal curriculum changed recently also, but I'm not focusing on that at the moment and I couldn't tell you how.

[Judge Pen]

Ayah! If I were in Shaolin Do I'd be doing Black Belt material. What about Jian training when do they start that? And do they teach Iron Thread at all? Those were the three things I was working on when I left Canada (plus another Qigong form and an elbow form)...

Jian training starts at 2nd black (unless you count the tai chi jian which many people learn early when studying internal).

We don't theach Hung Gar's Iron Thread form. We do teach a lot of qi gong and elbow techniques are in most every long form we teach.

The lower ranks teach smaller forms that build a foundation to the more advanced material later. At least that's supposed to be how it works, but it depends on the teacher and the student, I guess.

[SimonM]

From what you are saying I'd be at a black belt level in SD. If I believed in Belts (I don't) that would be kind of nifty. ;)

Still I don't really feel like "registering my hands as a deadly weapon".

Does anyone here still remember that myth about black belts? It was popular when I was growing up.:D

[Willow Palm]

I shouldn't be posting this because I have nothing posistive to add to this thread, but someone has to.

[B]How long will this thread go?[B] This is probably the first that I've had to skip to the 90 + page just to post. Geez..:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

JP, the hand written notes (poster form originally I think sent to Louisville then kinda made their way around) were done in the late 80's. He listed out the 10 forms that were available at the time for each rank. Then when more new stuff started being taught out, they were added here and there to the advancement list. To make it easier for everyone to get something they needed (not everyone got all that was taught and some couldn't come to Lexington to get it) he instituted the "required material and the optional material".

So, either one is correct. The written list is more structured while the option one allows some freedom in what people want to learn. But with either one, its still 64 and Clasical for 1st, Hsing I for 2nd, 4 roads 4th and the 8 (4 or 5) for 5th, 6th, rips a persons heart out and show it to them before they die.


Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

[SimonM]

How long will this thread go?


We are trying to get it up to 100 pages. Thanks for helping. :D

[Judge Pen]

JP, the hand written notes (poster form originally I think sent to Louisville then kinda made their way around) were done in the late 80's. He listed out the 10 forms that were available at the time for each rank. Then when more new stuff started being taught out, they were added here and there to the advancement list. To make it easier for everyone to get something they needed (not everyone got all that was taught and some couldn't come to Lexington to get it) he instituted the "required material and the optional material".

So, either one is correct. The written list is more structured while the option one allows some freedom in what people want to learn. But with either one, its still 64 and Clasical for 1st, Hsing I for 2nd, 4 roads 4th and the 8 (4 or 5) for 5th, 6th, rips a persons heart out and show it to them before they die.


Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

That's my understanding, but Master Garry sticks pretty close to the handwritten list. All my tests so far have followed them to the letter. I anticipate that my next test will too (which will be a bear with the 2 two man sets in there).

[Judge Pen]

From what you are saying I'd be at a black belt level in SD. If I believed in Belts (I don't) that would be kind of nifty. ;)

Still I don't really feel like "registering my hands as a deadly weapon".

Does anyone here still remember that myth about black belts? It was popular when I was growing up.:D

No reason to believe in belts. I don't put stock in the stripes on my sash, but I do look better in black then in white. :cool:

Yeah, that myth always made me laugh. That's one myth that the internet actually helped debunk instead of propogate.

[Judge Pen]

Trying to get to 100 pages? My computer shows this thread at 141 pages. I wonder why that is?

[lxtruong]

Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

No, I skipped out because I thought that he was going work outside and I injured my foot. I didn't want to aggravate it by working outside with shoes on. Of course he didn't so I'm minus one drunken spear. I'm 0-3 for learning cool katas, since I missed both the new sword and staff kata Master Sin taught out last and they both looked awesome as hell.

[humbleman]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: Are you the same Humbleman that keeps getting schooled for trolling mma.tv?
Sorry, never met one of those. Although we do quite a bit of trolling here in Erie in the summertime. The fishing is quite good.:D :D :D

[kwaichang]

Hua 1, 2, 3, and 4, Modern Hua , Chang Chuan, 7 section Chain whip, 2nd Level Broad Sword, Butterfly Knives, Pang Lung Pang, 1st and 2nd 2 man sets of Hua, that is what I prepared for testing ther is required and alternate material there is also Tang Lang Chien as well. KC :eek: that is how you feel afterward enough lactic acid to starty a bulldozer with a battery.:)

[Royal Dragon]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

[kwaichang]

For each rank of progression that is the number of years it should take. 2-3rd 3years 3-4th 4years etc etc. Not all people progress beyond the outer shell but the object for all is not to learn all the intricacies of the art , the conditioning itself is something else that is worth the time. In the old Kung Fu tv show it was said it may take half a lifetime to master one art. However that is dependent upon the spirit, dedication and attitude. KC:D

[lxtruong]

Check out the announcement about the new seminar material for the next two years on the main SD website.

[Golden Tiger]

Woohooo, woohooooooo:D

[Judge Pen]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

*Wipes the sarcasm off of the computer screen.*

I start with the shell, but eventually I'll get to the tootsie-roll center.

[lxtruong]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

"Wow, you guys read ALOT of books!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?"

[chud]

I can't believe I actually read all 95 pages of this thread. It's time I'll never get back, but at the same time I just couldn't stop. Anyway, after having read the whole thing it seems to me that we can agree on a few things:

1.) Starchaser mixes some mean music.

2.) Jonie Uniforms sells some quality uniforms.

3.) ShaolinDo teaches too many forms too quickly. However despite that there are some pretty cool people who train in it, and it is what it is, so it's probably pointless to debate any of the other points because we'll just never agree.

[Ou Ji]

NNNNOOOOO!!!!!

Save the conclusions for page 100. :D

[Brad]

"Wow, you guys read ALOT of books!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?"

Most people don't ;) Reading a book on medicine doesn't make one a doctor... of course reading books and practicing kungfu aren't the same, so it's kind of a silly arguement anyway :p

BTW, about learning lots of forms... I practiced longfist basics for about 4 years with little form work. It takes me about 30 minutes to commit a minute long form to memory now. I admit, I do pick things up fairly quickly compared to a lot of people, but I know I'm not the only one. As most have seen from the vids, SD pretty much follows the same basics whether it's drunken, monkey, mantis, chang quan, taiji, etc. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to memorize 800 to 900 or so forms, especially if you make notes, and practice them all with esentially the same physical basics.

[MasterKiller]

Just because you 'could' doesn't mean you 'should'.

[Brad]

True... ;)

[kwaichang]

Why not learn the forms if they are here to learn ???? KC

[MasterKiller]

Why not learn the forms if they are here to learn ???? KC

Well, let's say you learn something like 200 open hand forms.

How often do you get a chance to practice each form? If you do 10 forms a day, it would take you 20 days to cycle through all your forms. So, every year you would perform each form maybe 14 or 15 times. And that's if you do them every day, 365 days a year.

I have 10 open-hand forms that I maintain. In that same amount of time, I can do each form 365 times.

In ten years, I would have performed each of my sets 3,650 times, while you may have performed each set 140 to 150 times.

Everything else being equal, who do you think will have more indepth knowledge of their forms?

[Judge Pen]

Bah, math.

At best I only keep 15 forms up to speed. The rest are pieces that can be put together if I need to. So I pick the 10 to 15 that I really like and I have them as well as I can.

[lxtruong]

Let's go back to the book analogy:

Person A reads one book a week, at approximately 250 pages per book. That's 13,000 pages of book a year.

Person B reads one book a year, but rereads the same book every week. That's 250 pages of book per year.

At the end of the year, who will have more in-depth knowledge of their respective material? Obviously Person B, who would probably be able to recite the book back by heart.

But who would have a wider overall BREATH of knowledge? I would contend that is Person A, who is likely (we assume) have read books of varying subject matter and such.

Transfer this analogy to forms. Obviously Person A with 200 forms won't be able to practice their forms as often as Person B. More likely the case will be that Person A will have a set of forms that are their favorite (10 seems like a reasonable number) that s/he will practice often (although still less often than Person B would from their forms).

However, even if Person A only retains a small fraction of the concepts from the other forms, I would maintain that with the same amount of hard work Person A would not be far behind Person B, with the additional benefit of having gained concepts from various (presumably different) sources.

[sean_stonehart]

However, even if Person A only retains a small fraction of the concepts from the other forms, I would maintain that with the same amount of hard work Person A would not be far behind Person B, with the additional benefit of having gained concepts from various (presumably different) sources.

I would maintain that they can not. You can't reasonably presume to think if you do "a little of this, a little of that, a little of the other" with no relationship between concepts, mechanics, theories & structures, you would be as proficient as a person who practices a single system, with a single set of concepts, mechanics, theories & structure.

Let's increase that to say... 2 or 3 systems total. If you are working similar concepts, mechanics, theories & structures, then interchanging ideas, skills, techniques isn't a big deal, provided the practice is structured, consistant & maintainable as MK & JP both indiciated. Even if the extra system or 2 are dissimilar, as long as the amount to practice & quality time spent on each is worthwhile, structured, consistant & maintainable then it's doable, but stetched at this point to maintain the proper foundations for them.

However if you do "2 of this, 4 of these, 1 big one of this, a smidge here, a smidge there, etc..." with no foundations or formal proper training in a single one, what have you got?? A bunch of pages with squigglies on them that you still can't understand. You can read them on the surface for sure, but the foundation to understand what's written just isn't there.

[Judge Pen]

Well the nice thing about having a wide range of material to chose from is that I can choose where I want to focus my training (or it can chose me based on my body type). As much as I love northern long-fist, I'm not as suited to it as I am in other systems. If all I had to learn was nothern sets, then I would be better at them, but never as good as I could be in another system. But I can sample another system and decide it suits me better and focus my training in those areas. I still learn the northern material, but it isn't my ideal. What it does is force me beyond my range of comfortablness. My footwork is better, I mave better, but I still don't do those forms justice. But they still help me and help thge material that does suit me be better also.

[kwaichang]

Lets suppose I have 70 forms learned and I practice 60 of them I personally do a 2- 3 a dayer training to maintain my forms and try to do more than scratch the surface.
So with 60 forms trained on 2x / wk = 120 over a 6 day period that means i will have done 20 forms a day that is 10 in the am and 10 in the pm if you divide them equally. 60 forms at an avg of 35 moves each which some have far more such as Long Fist , Hua's etc. will = 2100 "moves" a day that I perform x 6 to 7 days / wk =12600 moves. With the infinite possibilities of attack lets suppose over a ten year period I did this only 300 days per year that = 630,000 moves in one partial year that I can use to defend my self. The numbers speak for them selves and since some moves are variations of others there is replication but whether you hit someone with a palm or a fist doesnt matter. I personally feel that with 630,000 moves over a 10 year period gives me a better chance of responding appropriately as you are training the Neural Pathways to respond w/o conscious thought not to mention thje conditioning aspect. Also do not forget that repetitive movement in the same plane of movement increases the chance of over training injury thus you cant train and are not as good as you could be! KC:)

[Golden Tiger]

Ok, if I have 24 beers drink 12 and give 2 away but bum 3 more then have a shot of tekillya then go to bed, I still will have as big a headache as I got trying to decipher all that math.

First, what we learned was crap. Then it was too much crap. Then it was still too much crap but we just weren't digging deep enough into the crap to know that it was crap. Lord have mercy! I never would have imagined prior to the age of the message board just how bad I was.

Yes, we have too many forms. Way too many IMHO. But like JP eluded to, it does allow one to find something that fits them and gives them the chance to learn it well. I see it like this...every new form I learn, there will be one or two moves that make me go "Wow, I never thought of doing it that way". Then I take those two moves and incorporate them into my knowledge base and voila, I am two moves better.

As for training deep into just one thing....thats kinda like selective breeding. It works for horse bloodlines but not too well for people. Heck, look at Eastern Ky! (sorry but I lived there for a time so I can talk about them). And to be honest, mutts make the best (and sometimes meanest) dogs.

JP: Vid Mail

[sean_stonehart]

Ok, if I have 24 beers drink 12 and give 2 away but bum 3 more then have a shot of tekillya then go to bed, I still will have as big a headache as I got trying to decipher all that math.

Aw now... don't go dragging good alcohol into this. Tequila is truely a drink of the gods... :) If you'll switch to beer without the preservatives, the headache also isn't as bad as the American swill passed around as beer.


First, what we learned was crap. Then it was too much crap. Then it was still too much crap but we just weren't digging deep enough into the crap to know that it was crap. Lord have mercy! I never would have imagined prior to the age of the message board just how bad I was.

Actually I never said crap, just missing foundational training for the specific systems/forms/styles laid claim to in the style.


Yes, we have too many forms. Way too many IMHO. But like JP eluded to, it does allow one to find something that fits them and gives them the chance to learn it well. I see it like this...every new form I learn, there will be one or two moves that make me go "Wow, I never thought of doing it that way". Then I take those two moves and incorporate them into my knowledge base and voila, I am two moves better.

Yes but the way SD is set up you never get to learn any one thing well since there's constantly something new being moved into the arena.

Tiger Crane for instance. It's a singular Hung Ga form taught in SD. Do you think a SD person will understand it as well as a Hung Ga player who plays that set along with the basics of HG with only a few more sets in the entire system for years on end as opposed to the SD player who will receive multiple more sets from differing ends of the MA spectrum over the same amount of time?


As for training deep into just one thing....thats kinda like selective breeding. It works for horse bloodlines but not too well for people. Heck, look at Eastern Ky! (sorry but I lived there for a time so I can talk about them). And to be honest, mutts make the best (and sometimes meanest) dogs.


Dunno about the EKy people. I do like driving though Ky though. Very nice scenery except this last time it was all brown from the lack of rain.

True about mutts... however that doesn't apply to MAs. Too much equals too much. At least with speciality comes thorough understanding of it as opposed to brief passes over it or shallow, incomplete understanding.

[David Jamieson]

shaolin do is like american kempo-karate

the forms that share the names of teh forms from other system are upon viewing not actually the legit forms. tiger/crane is so far removed from the actual tiger crane in frame, shape, movement...well, everything. It is tough not to venture the guess that this is just haphazardly slapped togethr to get the widest range of wants of the student covered.

'i want to learn shaolin' - 'ok we got that'

'i want to learn hung ga' - oh we got that too!

'I want to learn the northern preying mantis' - it's in there!

When there used to be an abundance of videos of sd forms available for viewing, it was a whole lot easier to point out the erroneousness of them and there disconnect from the principles and flow of the martial arts that they were claimed to have been drawn from.

having said all that, i don't think learnin sd is any worse than learning any form of urban martial arts practice. It's not like 99.999 percent of the people practicing martial arts out there are actually gonna stick with it long enough to start to form their own kungfu inside themselves with their martial practice.

I would think that someone who diligently trains in sd for 20 years will be proficient in sd. For what that is worth, it's worth something to them.

I don't think sin should be making so many stories about origins though. It's just embarassing to him and his organization and causes 1000+post threads all over the internet that refute him into the ground.

why doesn't his brother make any of the incredible claims that sin the does

anyway, just thought i'd add more to this post line. It's like coming back for secondS!

[Judge Pen]

why doesn't his brother make any of the incredible claims that sin the does



Other than the number of forms, his brother makes the same lineage claims as GM Sin The. Su Kong, the multiple shaolin temples, etc. Both acknowledge that there were more teachers than just Ie Chang Ming that taught them this material. Some of SD's forms came from Indonesia recently, so SD is akin to whatever is being taught there. My own personal belief is that the lineage of Su Kong was related to them by Ie Chang Ming (it's truth was never questioned by them--I don't believe that Sin and Hiang fabricated Su Kong to explain this to Americans, there was no need--In Kentucky at that time, martial arts were very sparse; so whether Su Kong was real, a myth, or based in reality to some degree, he was a story related to the brothers by their teacher and that was good enough for them).

Ie Chang Ming taught what he knew as well as the other teachers there. Thus, they were taught a diversified group of material in Indonesia. Then they taught in Kentucky and you get the two brothers teaching a wide array of material, but teaching it with their spin. From there, it began to take on a different flavor based upon the interpretations of the The brothers and the senior students. Sd has been further interpreted by the teachers of it that have followed so you can see major differences from schools to schools.

In short, SD is what it is, but I find value in it and I can apply it in a martial context. I respect my teachers for the effort and knowledge they have given to me and I respect their teachers for teaching them. I know there is a link to CMA and even shaolin (as many schools of different martial arts can accurately claim to some degree). It's difference make it unique, but you can identify the core concepts and fundamentals in the arts that are represented.

I see several other schools, even those with well-respected teachers and lineages, fall victim to the same problems that SD is accused of: Too many forms. Mixing material. Shoddy instruction. Some of them even have highly questionable claims in their history. They are not as vilified as SD for a number of reasons. One of the main ones, imo, is that SD took on the outer-trappings of a Japanese art which is offensive to many Chinese people. There are other reasons, but I think that is an underlying issue with SD and CMA.

[BM2]

anyway, just thought i'd add more to this post line. It's like coming back for secondS!

Not me, I'm just lurking waiting to be the first to post on the 100th page as GT beat everyone to the 1000th post :mad:

FWIW, I think it is strange that some in SD get all worked up because a few schools wear something other than a gi. If it doesn't matter to the head of the system, it shouldn't either to anyone else. IMHO, it is how a person performs in class that is more important than what they are wearing.

[The Willow Sword]

There is something that i keep reading and hearing, and it is throughout history from master to master.

in a nutshell what i read is " Keep it simple". I could elaborate for days about what that actually means within the context of martial arts and combat and such. But i am going to trust that MOST here will really understand what that term really means.

It is my opinion that if you have such a broad array of "forms" or "systems" in your psyche, and you try to organize and put to some order all this "information" so as to "preserve" an art or "keep it going",, you cease to be what i would call a martial artist and a fighter and you then become a "historian" and an academic.
whether the forms and systems be made up or traditional, whether they stem from anything that is "real" or "fabricated" whether they come from a standpoint of moneymaking or ego. the fact remains that TMI(too much info) is detremental to the one who truly wishes to make a fighting system "SOLID" and "MASTERED"(in my opinion).

its also tough when schools like SD,who have TMI to offer and in my opinion no real mastery in ANY of it,try to teach all this info and it therefore becomes fragmented, jumbled, and for lack of a better term "a mess". Sure one can say that we can derive what we need from all of this info to createsomething that works for us (like a the salad bar at the golden corral resteraunt:D )
however i feel that when it really comes down to it. we all resort to the "simple things" and we keep things simple.
remember the old saying "it is better to master only a few techniques than to know a whole lot of techniques and not have mastered any of them."

peas and wub,,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

its also tough when schools like SD,who have TMI to offer and in my opinion no real mastery in ANY of it,try to teach all this info and it therefore becomes fragmented, jumbled, and for lack of a better term "a mess". Sure one can say that we can derive what we need from all of this info to createsomething that works for us (like a the salad bar at the golden corral resteraunt:D )
however i feel that when it really comes down to it. we all resort to the "simple things" and we keep things simple.
remember the old saying "it is better to master only a few techniques than to know a whole lot of techniques and not have mastered any of them."

Would you no