Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[cerebus]

Personally I have seen the Shaolin Monks version of Mantis, Contemporary Wushu Mantis, Seven-star Mantis, and I think it was Eight-Steps Mantis. All of these had similar "Mantis" body movement and footwork (though overly exaggerated in the Monks and the Wushu case).

I've also seen clips of SD's versions of Drunken Boxing, Tiger Boxing and Hsing-I (as well as having seen the traditional Chinese Versions of these arts). Most were from different schools, all from supposed high-ranking blackbelts and it was a similar experience in each case. They were doing the motions, but their method of body movement and power expression looked like they were doing Karate, not Kung Fu.

I also have an aquaintance who was a black belt in SD many years ago and have discussed this with him. He felt the same way after having seen some traditional Chinese instructors demonstrate their arts. He initially tried to train with a variety of CMA instructors to put into his SD forms what they were lacking (the particular styles of body movement and power generation which are different for each of these arts) but gave it up as a lost cause and began training in an authentically Chinese art (Yin style Bagua). When I met him he'd been training in Yin Bagua for about two years and was amazed at the depth to be found in traditional Bagua as opposed to what he had learned in SD.

Once again, I'm not saying SD is not a good art in it's own way, but I am saying that it ISN'T a Chinese Martial art. I think Karate is a good art, I think Kenpo is a good art (I've trained in both). But if a practitioner of either of those arts tried to claim them to be traditional Chinese Kung Fu, I'd have to call them on it (sometimes the "Shaolin Kempo" guys try to advertise themselves as being "Kung Fu", :rolleyes: ).

Anyway, over the years I've seen many Karate practitioners learn a Chinese form for a tournament. They learn the external techniques and all that, but the only power generation and body-movement method they have is from Karate and it shows. This is exactly what it looks like to me whenever I see a clip of an SD practitioner doing a form.

[Golden Tiger]

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form.

This clip is often refered to and mistaken for "Enters the Door". Actually, it is bits of Tang Lang Chien that was filmed FOR A MOVIE TEST TRAILER. Nothing more, nothing less. It was done to have the essence of Mantis and a tad of flash added in. It is a good representation of the Tang Lang forms that were taught out many moons ago but is nothing like the Mantis seminars taught a few years back.

I will agree with most that TOO much material is taught out too quickly. Its the classic "quality vs quantity" problem. But, thats the nature of the beast. Either you like it that way or you don't.

[Judge Pen]

This clip is often refered to and mistaken for "Enters the Door". Actually, it is bits of Tang Lang Chien that was filmed FOR A MOVIE TEST TRAILER. Nothing more, nothing less. It was done to have the essence of Mantis and a tad of flash added in. It is a good representation of the Tang Lang forms that were taught out many moons ago but is nothing like the Mantis seminars taught a few years back.

I will agree with most that TOO much material is taught out too quickly. Its the classic "quality vs quantity" problem. But, thats the nature of the beast. Either you like it that way or you don't.

I was mistaken then. It did look like "enters the door." It still doesn't have the feel of a mantis like the more recent forms that were taught out do have.

[Thunaric]

New Kid's Book

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/fiveancestors/

[Vash]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?

[kwaichang]

there are required forms for rank and other forms one can learn as well on the SD site I think there is a required list of forms kc

[wdl]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?

It sort of varies from region to region.

If you look here:

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Look at the first black to second black requirements. Alot of the stuff is taught electively. What is taught here in Tennessee are the four tigers, four spears, classical pa kua and Tai Chi. None of the rest of it is taught as rank advancement and the previously mentioned forms are the ones tested over. As far as I know other regions teach some other stuff as rank advancement, however the core of the system there are the forms mentioned and they are tested over everywhere. Without all of the other stuff it's alot to learn in two years.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Yes. For example I know that the group in Atlanta must learn Tang Lang Chien as well as the 4 Tigers, 4 spears, Tai Chi 64 and classical Pa Kua. It may vary in Kentucky and out west under the Soards.

[Golden Tiger]

Question:

Is it required of SD students to learn the volume of "kata" so often complained about, or does the syllabus vary instructor to instructor?


From white belt to 1st black, there is a pretty much universal standard of material that is required. After that, each rank of black has required and optional forms and a min time requirement. Although this seems to now vary by "region" , thats the way it generally is.

Required:

1st to 2nd- Tai Chi (Yang 64) and Classical Pa Kua
2nd to 3rd- Hsing Ie (5 roads, 12 animals,Linkage)
3rd to 4th- 4 roads/books of the Hua
4th to 5th- 5 drunken immortals
5th on- ;)

To each of these ranks, optional material is added to make 10 forms total for advancement.

Again, this may vary in different places but as a whole, thats the way it is done.

[Jhapa]

New Kid's Book

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/fiveancestors/

are you the author?

[Thunaric]

are you the author?


No, not at all. I just saw some news on it. Its written by a Shaolin Do brown belt, therefore I thought it had relevance here one way or the other.

[Golden Tiger]

No, not at all. I just saw some news on it. Its written by a Shaolin Do brown belt, therefore I thought it had relevance here one way or the other.

I don't know the guy personally but from those who have read it, they say that it is a very well written childrens book. There are supposed to be more coming out later in the set.

[Jhapa]

i did a little search on amazon, and his 2nd book/cd is coming out on sept. hmm

[Fred Sanford]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that shaolin-do is some fake a$$ bull$heet. Hope y'all have enjoyed being lied to and deceived. LOLOLOLOLOL.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Fred, this thread was almost dead: no one had posted on it in several days and yet you feel the need to come in and post again just to say that? You're a class act man, really. Let this thing die man; stop complaining about our stuff and worry about your own.

[BeiTangLang]

And your sparring gear is too **** pink.


For PK:

Dat's Just Da Wa I talk1!1 (http://www.wiggaz.com)


LOL!, Thats just wrong! (Thanks for posting it! LOL!)

[kwaichang]

Once there was a mosquito who thought he was a fly and the "fly" kept saying he was a Fly. So was he a fly or a mosquito ? Either way i squashed him. Did I use Shuto or buddha "s Palm good question. Did I kill the fly or the mosquito? Who cares as long as it is dead. kc :eek: :confused:

[Ralphie]

There once was a man from Kent
Who had a dik so long it was bent
When she rolled over
It doubled over
And instead of coming he went.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

:eek: :confused:

Why is this thread still active?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Judge Pen]

:eek: :confused:

Why is this thread still active?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

It shouldn't be.

[wdl]

Can this thread be locked Gene?

Seriously, it's just pointless now(like it ever was). It's time to wait for the next SD thread to come about. It's just like Ground Hog Day.

-Will

[herb ox]

pretty soon we'll have an annual event... the resurrect Shaolin-Do challenge.


good grief :rolleyes:

herb ox

[Ralphie]

that's pretty good MK, how about this:

There once was a grandmaster with a mullet
Who out of his golden cyborg shot a rocket
His snake style was defeated
As lies were repeated
But there's quite a bit of cash in his pocket

[Starchaser107]

Once there was a mosquito who thought he was a fly and the "fly" kept saying he was a Fly. So was he a fly or a mosquito ? Either way i squashed him. Did I use Shuto or buddha "s Palm good question. Did I kill the fly or the mosquito? Who cares as long as it is dead. kc :eek: :confused:


Quite Profound!

[ninthdrunk]

I haven't been around for awhile, but I wanted to drop in and say hi to all the sd folks!

I agree Hsing ie sword is freakin awesome!

lxtruong, congrats on the test! I hope hsing ie is treating you well.


Ben

[lxtruong]

I haven't been around for awhile, but I wanted to drop in and say hi to all the sd folks!

I agree Hsing ie sword is freakin awesome!

lxtruong, congrats on the test! I hope hsing ie is treating you well.


Ben

Congrats to you on your test too. Hsing-Ie is treating me well, but not my knees so much so. Stupid Dragon.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

How this thread was allowed to get up to 81 pages is beyond me!! I mean, what's the point. It's not like anyone is ever actually going to sift through all of those pages of pointless babble. Please, Amida Buddha, strike this abominable thread from the annals of the Kungfumagazine forum!!

[Judge Pen]

How this thread was allowed to get up to 81 pages is beyond me!! I mean, what's the point. It's not like anyone is ever actually going to sift through all of those pages of pointless babble. Please, Amida Buddha, strike this abominable thread from the annals of the Kungfumagazine forum!!

At least close it. . . That way people can refer to it the next time a pointless SD debate comes along.

[BM2]

Actually the thread was started by a cleaver troll.
It would be better to change the thread's title to " Pointless SD debate." Closing it would only spawn another thread.

[Judge Pen]

No, we tried that. Fred brought it back to life after it was dormant for a week.

[wdl]

Allow me to pass out the coffee mugs filled with a great soupy substance known as STFU in it. This is my last post on this thread, barring something unbelievable and or absolutely obsurd.

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

No, we tried that. Fred brought it back to life after it was dormant for a week.

LOL

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

[humbleman]

I studied Shaolin-Do for a few years in Erie, PA. I am not a black belt and therefor am not considered nor claim to be a representative of the system. However, Erie has a rather prolific and competitive martial arts community. During my time of study, quite a few extremely competent martial artists were visitors at the kwoon. (excuse me Sensei Brian, Dojo!) There were times I vividly remember some of the power of Shaolin-Do manifesting that seemed to have a religious effect on those who witnessed it, namely they invoked the name of religious deitys in ways I had never heard before. Then I pulled myself out of the broken drywall between the wall stuccos and dusted myself off. :eek: :eek:

[David Jamieson]

Those cleaver trolls are even worse than the clever ones. heh heh.

Shaolin DOH! though it may be good krotty will not find a fan base from teh ranks of those who taste from Shaolin arts for the most part.

goes over real big with the Nascar Gi set though it seems. :D

[Golden Tiger]

goes over real big with the Nascar Gi set though it seems. :D


Say what you will about SD but lets leave Nascar out it.

[David Jamieson]

Say what you will about SD but lets leave Nascar out it.


Actually, on another level these "SD real chinese martial art or not?" and a nascar analogy are apropo.

Goes round and round furiously and ultimately gets nowhere. :D

[Shaolinlueb]

the question is, why is this thread the thriving thread in the shaolin forum?

[Golden Tiger]

the question is, why is this thread the thriving thread in the shaolin forum?

Because Shaolin-Do IS the predominant shaolin art, silly!

(sorry, not much to do at work today and I am a tad bored)

[Shaolinlueb]

Because Shaolin-Do IS the predominant shaolin art, silly!

(sorry, not much to do at work today and I am a tad bored)



WAKA WAKA WAKA WAKA!

[ninthdrunk]

Hsing ie six harmonies staff in September!

Not to mention the tournament is supposed to be amazingly different this time around. Based on Grandmaster Sin and Master Schaefer's comments, I am very excited about this one.

[Fred Sanford]

TTT

hahahahahahahahaha.

[ewallace]

The final answer to this question, would be to gather up all flavors of Shaolin players together. ALL OF THEM. Make a "Royal Rumble" type contest for different divisions (ie: 1-3 years of training, 4-10 years, 10+).

Of course I'd be pulling for Northern Longfist but that's just me. :)

[Judge Pen]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?

[ewallace]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?
Legitimate? I doubt it. More respected? Most likely. There will always be negative things said about other CMA, even within the same style. One of the reasons I am more and more turned off by CMA. Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

[David Jamieson]

The final answer to this question, would be to gather up all flavors of Shaolin players together. ALL OF THEM. Make a "Royal Rumble" type contest for different divisions (ie: 1-3 years of training, 4-10 years, 10+).

Of course I'd be pulling for Northern Longfist but that's just me. :)

sil lum hung kuen with a heavy background in hard hei gung pwns you! :p

[Judge Pen]

Legitimate? I doubt it. More respected? Most likely. There will always be negative things said about other CMA, even within the same style. One of the reasons I am more and more turned off by CMA. Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

I don't think it would make a difference. We can be good at whatever we do, call it CMA, karate, kempo, kung tao, b.s., whatever, and not be well respected because of the claims that have been made. My take on all of this is that the conditioning and training isn't a real concern for most of the detractors; the problem most people seem to have is that the popular conception is that SD isn't what SDers say it is.

[ewallace]

Well, if the majority of the SD players were left standing, then maybe it would quiet some critics. But since it will never happen, lets just keep making fun of it. :) It's just a debate that can never be won on either side.

[ninthdrunk]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me.


What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?

[ewallace]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me. What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?
Nothings wrong, clearly everything in Texas is bigger and better. :D

[BM2]

Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

Actually that was preety funny. :)

[cho]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?

Well, back in 2001/02, Willow Sword was getting pretty heated on these boards during an SD debate with another poster named Reemul. WS challenged him, went to meet him, and reported back here saying he lost. That didn't really change anybody's opinion.

[Fred Sanford]

SD is crap. What a waste of time and effort. I just wonder how good some of those 20 year students could be if they had studied an actual martial art.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, let's get this thread back to some real debating. I'll start with:

Nuh uh.

ok, next!

[kwaichang]

Here is an interesting quote and link that confirmes the History of Shaolin Do, although it does not mention by name Soo Kong Tai Jin it does hint to the fact that the Shaolin Masters left China and went to Indonesia as well as other places. So now we can all be at peace. :) KC


A history of Chinese Kun Tao in Indonesia

By Willem de Thouars

MY REMINISCENCE OF AN ERA THAT HAS GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA.

Many misconceptions have surrounded the Chinese martial arts practiced by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is some interbred martial art that found its beginnings in Indonesia. In clarifying this misunderstood issue, as we enter the 21st century, I must begin touching the surface of the history of Kun Tao first, before I write about the physical training in Chinese Kun Tao as I have endured in the archipelago.

Safeguarded from non-Chinese outside the South East Asian communities, the meaning of Kun Tao is in essence, a variety of Chinese combative arts practiced by Chinese. These fighting arts of self-defense are absolute entities of the "old" Shao Lin boxing arts brought by Shao Lin masters to the archipelago.

Always shrouded with a mystery to outsiders, Chinese Shao Lin boxers trained their arts under strict supervision of masters in secrecy. In safeguarding their secrets behind closed doors from the "crude" intrusiveness of the Indonesian natives, Chinese settlers had quite often to overcome many hardships and unfair harassment from the natives, and were forced to retaliate physically for their survival.

Several of the merchants were also fully trained Kun Tao experts, acknowledged in China as "seasoned" practitioners, they were the founding fathers of secret "Family" Shao Lin societies in Palembang, Makassar, Semarang, Bogor, Bandung and "old" Batavia, or Djakarta.
There are variable means when the name is applied, for instance the terminology for Chinese fighting art in the Mandarin language appears as Chuan Do (a way of kung fu),
... GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA. ... by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is ...
www.mindspring.com/~achentaiji/kun%20tao%20history.htm - 25k

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.orlandokuntao.com/master_frameset_willem.html


Here is a history on the Author of the article that KC posted. Nowhere in this article is there a mention of Sin kwang the' Le chang ming or sukong. Nor does he make reference to shaolin do. So how does this article prove the history of Shaolin do exactly? Oh that chinese immigrants came to indonesia? okay i will buy that. it Still doesnt explain the gaps in the family tree of Sin the' or any of the other students that Supposed Ie chang ming taught. Where are they? are they still in Indonesia training in the lost shaolin seceretive art?

This article Proves the History of Kuntao KC NOT Shaolin-do,,,but thanks for the article. Very informative indeed. :o


Every traditional and legitamate family system be it shaolin or hung gar or mantis has a family tree to signify who started what and who taught what. It gives the Masters ,Students and the masters assistant teachers at the time. And then the history is passed on to the chosen disciple(s) who has been with the master for the longest time. If you look at the records and family trees of just about every other CMA and JMA you will find this to be evident. Where is your alls eh?

What you guys DO have is a black and white picture of a person who is not who it is claimed to be and a "PAINTING" of the next generation of master (ie chang ming)
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?


hehe sorry i just had to jump back in for a moment and make this point.

Peace,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I said that Soo Kong Tai Jin was not mentioned however the history as I have learned it corresponds almost verbatim of what is in the article, it even mentions that the "OLD" Shaolin masters went to that area, that is what I have read and discovered happened with Master Ie. It also has many other corresponding similarities.
Because GGM Soo Kong is not mentioned makes sense he was in China not Indonesia. Master Ie was in Indonesia which does make sense and so does the other statements that correspond with the history of SD. Also in the article the terms for the chinese martial arts are synonymous Chuan do, KunTao, Kung fu , Wu Shu Chuan Fa sorry you are wrong, all anyone has to do is read the article to see the similarities. Im sorry your mad and made the wrong decision, to quit a true "OLD" Shaolin art. Also note that you can call Shaolin Do Chinese Boxing if you want so you can call it Kun Tao in Indonesia and Kung fu in China or Chuan Fa or just Shaolin Do. What it is called does not change what it is a true Shaolin art brought to Indonesia by Grand Master Ie and called Kun Tao or Shaolin do. By the way I did not write the article a master of Kun Tao did and he doesnt have a dog in this fight even though what he said seems to be very very similar to what I have learned. KC :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

BTW WS the article you posted is on the author of the article I posted why would he, the writer, mention SD or GM The in an article about the other guy KC :confused:

[kwaichang]

Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage. KC :p

[cerebus]

Well kwaichang, SOME of you certainly seem to have brain damage... ;)
Shaolin Do may be many things, but it is NOT a traditional Chinese martial art. It obviously IS Sin The's idea of what traditional Chinese MA is supposed to be. Unfortunately for you fellas, that's just not the same thing. Peace. ;)

[kwaichang]

Well Cerebus how do you define a True CMA what is your criteria a Lineage or is it body mechanics since you were not there when all this occured and when the Shaolin Masters left China what do you base your Opinion on ? KC ;)

[BM2]

[QUOTE=The Willow Sword][url]
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?

Masters Liu Su Peng, Je Jou (shiao) Fu, and Qui Kwong were also instructors.

You may recall, WS, of the 1992 visit to Bandung in which a performance by a school of another stundent of Master Ie's gave to the SD group.

[Radhnoti]

Cerebus, do you think it's possible that Willem De Thours would look at what you consider "traditional kung-fu" and call it flowery useless wushu? It seems to be a COMMON critique offered by Indonesian kuntao players. It is also (as near as I can tell) common for kuntao practicioners to believe their lineage is "real/true/old kungfu". There are also quite a few kuntao folks tracing their lineage back to "shaolin". Maybe part of the problem a lot of kung-fu players have with shaolin-do would also apply to a lot of kuntao styles?

BM2, I've not heard too much about that exchange. Any idea what they performed? Differences and similarities? Thanks.

kwaichang, do you think that the name of shaolin-do's GGM is a partial transmission of information? Su Kong = si gung? If so, calling him Great grandmaster Su Kong is repeating ourselves. Lots of stuff like this in shaolin-do...partial transmissions of information...information mangled (like Texas calling the short forms tan tui)...it's all very consistant with a style of kuntao.

[Shaolinlueb]

so has anyone heard about the shaolin do performance at the shaolin temple long ago? i heard it was amazing :rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

GGM Soo Kong Tai Jin was the name given to the child at the temple later in his training I do not recall the original name. also Master Ie might have taken a different name as was the custom in Indonesiia at that time of Chinese Immigrants KC :) Good discussion

[BM2]

so has anyone heard about the shaolin do performance at the shaolin temple long ago? i heard it was amazing :rolleyes:

Uhhhh.... Wasn't there but unforgetable :p The one from mid to later 90s? Hopefully there were some that performed well, Gene stated some shouldn't have performed in his opinion.

[kwaichang]

Now that we can trace the SD art to the Shaolin Temples via the "Kun Tao" article I posted we can all just enjoy each others company on the web and stop trying to slander an Art and it s practioners, lets end it now and acknowledge the truth of SD and its history "thank you thank you very much Elvis has left the bldg KC :) :rolleyes: :p :eek:

[Radhnoti]

kc - "GGM Soo Kong Tai Jin was the name given to the child at the temple later in his training..."

I'm not sure about that...the thing that prompted me to start thinking about the name Su Kong was a line from something I read of Master Hiang's. In it he was referred to as Grandmaster Tai Jin, glancing around over there I didn't see them refer to him as "GM Su Kong" either. Su Kong could EASILY be a phonic interpretation of the Chinese shigung which means grandmaster.
Su Kong Tai Jin is a person GM Sin never met, when GM Ie referred to him it would make sense that he would add the honorific. I think current SD students trying to ALSO add the honorific have ended up saying the title twice. Gold Tiger stated...either earlier in this or in another thread... that he hadn't heard the higherups call him Grandmaster Su Kong and that it was a possibility.

A mangled transmission of information occuring between the time in Indonesia and the U.S. What might have been lost/changed/altered between China and Indonesia? Shaolin-do is it's own thing now. Closer to (admittedly only arts I've read about) kuntao than current kungfu, in my opinion.

[kwaichang]

You may be right but I am sure his name was different prior to entering the temple, meaning other than Tai Jin Tai means grand as in Tai Chi, or can mean other things I know context and all. I am sure I have heard another name but cant recall what it was the name Su Kong was prob added later after his studies and later in life maybe after he was considered the Mastyer at Fukien Temple KC :)

[BM2]

If he was left to die, I doubt that he had a name as his parents wouldn't have named him.

[kwaichang]

I agree with you but I know the child had another name maybe Im just getting old and senile. Il research it further. Very astute observation about the title and all I knew that but never put 2 and 2 togethor thinking about forms and all, e-mail me and let me know where you are KC :(

[Judge Pen]

They could have shaved his name into his chest before leaving him in the forest. :p

I think Rad's right. SD is closer to kun tao then kung fu, but it is it's own animal now. Many things have been lost in translation or left out which have changed our art somewhat. Not that it's a bad thing, it is just different than other CMA arts that have been filtered through other countries and cultures. Some things we do are very traditional. . . . other things are contemporary and added to satisfy the culture of the time and place.

With regard to our interaction with other art. . . . Live and let live. It is arrogant for us to authoritatively state that we know everything about their art because we practice some of it. Look for similarities, appreciate the differences and treat all with respect and an attitude of learning. If we all did that, and talked less about how great we were, I think less people would have a problem with SD. Of course there's always Fred Sanford. . . . :D But, as annoying as he can be, I can look for something to respect him. . . . he recently went to Iraq to help with security, so you have to give props to anyone who puts himself out there like that.

I know some people who are looking into the kung tao link, and have found some leads into current teachers and schools with links to the teachers that taught along GM Ie. Nothing authoritative yet, but there's information out there if people are willing to dig. I hope his research turns up some interesting ideas about SD, kung tao, and shaolin kung fu.

[The Willow Sword]

So the Moooovie is coming out soon then eh? All the research has been done? Tracks are being covered,,,copywrites in place? actors selected? the set is being built to start shooting? Miss wangs world of hair is getting a big order in for the actors and stunt doubles? and i will just bet New Zealand is where things are being filmed? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I hope its a musical :cool: i hope i hope i hope. :D

[Ralphie]

regarding that name tai jin...I think the shigong or soo kong is right in that it refers to the creator of the style. However tai jin or tai ren in mandarin refers to tai as in extreme and ren just means person, so extreme person. Tai doesn't mean grand in the way you may think of it. Draw your own conclusions after that.

[humbleman]

anyway. Hsing-i interests me, and tiger fork. Hsing-i loosely translates as "old man hit hard"?

[The Willow Sword]

SCENE 1 ACT ONE:

Fades to: an early morning Temple,,the Mist gently Clings to the bamboo,,and the whiporwills chirp the rising of the sun.

Cuts to: the Door of the temple and a mysterious woman running away leaving behind at the door a Basket (with something in side :( )

Cuts to: the lesser monks waking up and slowly muddling about yawning and stretching,,waking up. An early Morning GONG breaks the silence and echoes through the trees and mountains.

Cuts to: The Door to the temple opens up and a monks steps out with his broom to sweep away the fall leaves on the steps when he notices the basket laying there,,covered and something moving within it.

He opens the basket............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................
:eek: HORY SH!T!!!!! (MUSIC STARTS,,GRROOVY JAZZ WITH CHINESE VIOLINS AND ELECTRIC GUITARS,,,its music music music music,,BROADWAY MUSIC)

Monk is running with the basket throgh the temple singing "Look at what i found what i found what i found,,Look at THIS OMG Look at THIS ,,LOOK AT THISSSSS"

Monks chorus as they are flipping and doing acrobatics some meditating opening thier eyes all singing " WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAT WHATS THE BUZZ TELL me WHATS a HAPPENIN Whats the BUZZ tell me whats a happenin WHATS the Buzz tell me whats a happenin,,,,What did you find what did you find what did you fiiiiinnnnnnnd???"
monk solo: I found a baby at the door its a real,, wierd,, baby,, it has lots of hair i think it may be a dog :eek: i dont know i dont know im confused,,,whats this whats this?

at this time the dancing monks parade around the monk with the basket holding the hairy baby (the music is really hoppin now) MONKS CHORUS: LET US SEE LET US SEE LET US SEE SEE SEEEE"
one monk: OMG WHAT IS THAT
another monk: I DONT KNOW I DONT KNOW
yet another monk: ITS A DEMON ITS A DEMON OMG ITS A DEMON
and yet another monk" WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL,,,WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL.
All Monks: I AGREE I AGREE WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL<<WE SHOULD THROW IT DOWN THE WELL<<<
Monks shouting: THROW IT IN THE WELL!!!!

Monk holding basket clutches it tightly and SHOUTS: WAIT!!!!! (then silence)
(happy positive new age music now) " we are buuuudhists we are buuuuuudhists
we should be merciful and kind,,that is our way,,lets not give ourselves in to fear,,,,let us spare this unfortunate chillld,,let us spare himmmmmmmm
Monks chorus: "Buddhas name be praised buddhas name be praised"

small monk in the background with high whiney voice "Lets take him to the abbot"?

All monks look at the small monk,,,then the Groovy 70's braodway jazz starts up again. Chorus"yes we will take him to the abbot we will take him to the abbot,,to the aboot to the abbot we will gooooooooooo(they all stop and look at the camera and say) "WHATA GREAT IDEA" chorus: To the abbot to the abbot to the abbot we will go.

All Monks enter with Hairy baby to the main temple hass flipping and doing acrobatics,,some meditating and there in the golden chair is the abbot and they put the basket with the Hairy baby in from of him. They back away and watch intensely as the abbot walks over and looks at the Hairy demon looking child.

ABBOT: WE WILL TEACH HIM.........................KUNG FU!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
AND HIS NAME WILL BE ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,SU. :eek: :eek:


END ACT ONE SCENE ONE. (Whew Boy oh boy thats alot of work :o )

[Judge Pen]

You have too much time on your hands Willow. Maybe you should let some of that energy out in training.

[kwaichang]

So Willow you are a fan of Jesus Christ Super Star I saw Ted Neely the original on stage at 53 years still singing the high notes it was incredible keep going I am printing this and am going to be a millionaire. Its actually very creative. KC Judge is right though maybe more training will help. :o

[The Willow Sword]

JP: :D It was Late i couldnt sleep,,i had actually been at the gym a couple of hours before hand weight training. You know how it is when you train in the early evening,,you are revved up and your metabolism is racing?


KC :cool: Yes Indeed, IN fact JCSS and Hair are the only musicals on broadway and in the theatre that i like and can tolerate.

Peace,,TWS

[ninthdrunk]

You should see Avenue Q...it was a riot. Jess and I went to see it while in the city. It's like an adult version of Sesame Street!

[Fred Sanford]

Ttt...............

[Judge Pen]

Ttt...............

You don't want to let this go do you Fred?

[Ralphie]

close this thread...it sux, and the conclusion is SD is what it is. Mods, do your job, please.

[MonkeySlap Too]

KwaiC said: Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage. KC

my response: Bwaha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaaaa!!! I play with Fred on a regular basis, and am happy to take bets on any SD master who wants to "cross hands" with him. We can do it on indian land, so there won't be any problems...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Rhadnothti said: Cerebus, do you think it's possible that Willem De Thours would look at what you consider "traditional kung-fu" and call it flowery useless wushu? It seems to be a COMMON critique offered by Indonesian kuntao players. It is also (as near as I can tell) common for kuntao practicioners to believe their lineage is "real/true/old kungfu". There are also quite a few kuntao folks tracing their lineage back to "shaolin". Maybe part of the problem a lot of kung-fu players have with shaolin-do would also apply to a lot of kuntao styles?

My reply; No. As someone who knows Willem personally, and is a direct student of his lineage heir for bladework, I can say with certainty that willem would not refer to the Tang Shou Tao stuff as useless or flowery. There are too many similarities. He does disparage flowery stuff, but by flowery it is often refering to practicing stuff that can't be used - much like what I see out of SD.

Is SD a 'form' of Kun Tao? Sure, any system with Chinese influences, even karate, can be called Kun Tao in it's loosest sense. Is this what teaches of KTS mean when they talk about 'Kun Tao'? No. Your Kun Tao is not my Kun Tao, pal.

Look, one of my teachers has a soft spot for sin The' - looks at the crazy stuff he says, and points out that a LOT of Indo teachers say crazy stuff. But for me, I look at the content, and the behavior of the followers - except for JP, I see a flood of true beleivers that will follow Sin The all the way to the Flav-R-aid table, despite the mountain of information they are faced with.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge Pen said: With regard to our interaction with other art. . . . Live and let live. It is arrogant for us to authoritatively state that we know everything about their art because we practice some of it. Look for similarities, appreciate the differences and treat all with respect and an attitude of learning. If we all did that, and talked less about how great we were, I think less people would have a problem with SD.

My Reply: This is sage advice. SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove.

[Golden Tiger]

I play with Fred on a regular basis
:eek: nuff said......


....and am happy to take bets on any SD master who wants to "cross hands" with him.

:rolleyes: smells of "my dad can beat up your dad"..... MST, have you went up against many and/or any or the SD masters? I wonder how you can make an informed statement such as this.



SD has a real problem in beleiving it's own press, something that is pretty easy to disprove

And yet after more than 1200 posts, you haven't been about to provide it......


I knew better than to get on here but idle minds are tools of the devil.....

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.

Who says I haven't had first hand experience?

Oh, and try the grape Flav-R-Ade, the rat poison is less bitter than in the cherry.

[BM2]

My view is to keep this thread open to avoid another from being started.
MST, could you PM me on who you have seen?

[Golden Tiger]

Oh GT, you rascally true beleiver you... you left offf the part where KC says Fred will end up in the icu. Which, I can pretty much gaurentee would not happen.


Yes, I did leave that off (probably due to sub-conscious bias) and I agree, very few end up in the ICU.

Who says I haven't had first hand experience?


No one that I know of. That's why I asked. You shouldn't answer a question with a question.

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us?

[MasterKiller]

By the way, SD is celebrating its 40th year anniversity. Aren't ya happy for us? That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

That's funny. I thought you were celebrating your 1,540th anniversary... :rolleyes:

SD, as we know it in the U.S., is 40 years old.

[kwaichang]

Those who know do not speak, Those who speak usually just show their Ignorance and remove all doubt, Monkey Slap, Also I wonder who Fred Sanford is and where is Lamont KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

KwaiChang, I'm glad you finally realized that. You can go on speaking now, as it is pretty much obvious you do not know...

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oh, and please KWC, don't play internet tough guy, it's boring, especially when SD is widely known for what it isn't - all the things it claims to be.

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm pretty well known by players on the board. Don't try to bite off something you can't chew.


:rolleyes: .............

[MasterKiller]

:rolleyes: .............

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:

[kwaichang]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. So you "play" with who else? Give me a brek show a clip of what you can do Monkey boy KC :confused:

[MasterKiller]

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know and remember I before e except after C work on your spelling you will be more believable. Yeah, grammar is certainly your strong point.

[Golden Tiger]

Forgive them Lord, they know not what MS2 can do. :eek:


"As I walk though the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no MS2....GT 3:16

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

[Fred Sanford]

LMAO. The SD losers are at it again.

[Vash]

By the way, have you seen MS2 in action? Love to see some video of that......

*sniff sniff*

That smells of challenge.

Well, that, and hella much hubris.

[kwaichang]

What school do you come from NO School, No school what style do you study? NO style. The monkey is a coward, so, Remember the way of the monkey is to play the fool and while you laugh at his antics he bites you from behind. Quote from CIRCLE OF IRON. Much truth I think :p KC

[MonkeySlap Too]

Some SD fool said:
"OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know"

REPLY: So, you are telling me you aren't very bright. Your wisdom and maturity continues to impress me Kool-aid Drinker.

[kwaichang]

Nothing of you impresses me kc

[MonkeySlap Too]

Why would you think that I care?

It is very hard for a person to be mature and realize they have been misled. I can understand your anguish, and need to lash out, as your personal investment in your own judgement has been called into question by just about everyone outside your cult.

Be brave. You'll find your way.

[ewallace]

what style do you study? NO style.

Combat Shuai Chiao, KunTao Silat, and other stuff

OK I will bite I have not always been SD so do not speak of what you dont know
A lil research and a mouse click or two can prevent asking already answered questions as well as prevent preconceived answers that turn out to be false.
Those who open their mouth...

[kwaichang]

You must feel you have something to prove or you would not keep responding therefore it is reasonable to assume you care. because none of what you say can be proven or disproven. Everything else is conjecture on your part kc :eek:

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC said: "Everything else is conjecture on your part kc"

REPLY: Why do you talk to yourself?

And, no it is not conjecture, it is a logical assumption based on A.) You are an SD 'true-beleiver.' Therefore B.) Whatever you did before wasn't very good/was too hard for you/you did not understand. Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.

Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

[GeneChing]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?

[kwaichang]

HAHA I laugh in your general direction KC

[ewallace]

Speaking of that, any of you SD guys no anything about Kung Fu Kitchen? They're asking me for sponsorship. WTF?
It's like Hell's Kitchen Gene, only with a Shaolin Do twist on it. :)

[GeneChing]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)

[Fred Sanford]

:eek: :eek: LOL :eek: :eek:

[ewallace]

...it's a new reality tv show from the personal chef of the Soards. Don't beleive me? Check it out. (http://www.kungfukitchen.tv/Category.cfm?CategoryID=3) Stranger things have happened...like hairy-faced monks... ;)
Why do you want to learn to cook: To meet girls
Whoever they are they are cool in my book.

[BM2]

This thread is just getting weirder and stranger :p :( But then again, it makes me feel more normal after reading these posts :D

[cerebus]

LOL! Man, I haven't looked at this thread for awhile! I just got too tired of trying to explain things reasonably to people who have their fingers in their ears and keep repeating "na na na na na I can't hear you, I can't hear you, na na na na". :p

I have to admit though, it provided some comic relief to see quaichang asking if maybe one of the de Thouars brothers might look at the martial arts that I do & call it flashy wooshoo :D . quaichang, you might wanna know what I do before making such funny speculations. As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I. But hey, you're a shaolin-d'oh practitioner and you're taught that evryone outside of your art only does WoooShooo, right?

And to see the kind of ridiculous crap you're talking, you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either. You can keep your head stuck firmly in the sand (or wherever you have it stuck) all you wish, but it just won't make your fantasies come true.

Thanks for the laughs though... :D

[kwaichang]

yo cerebus, perhaps you should re read the posts i did not say other cma are wu shu , however, others have. i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.
I read the histories of you guys or girls as much as is there, but not much to read as far as their or your history in martial arts.
I for one do not have my head in the sand. I did quite a bit of research before beginning SD. I for one enjoy it and see CMA in it . I feel those who continue to try to persuade others that what SD people do is not good or CMA, is a very biased and closed minded attitude , at least what some of the SD people do is "good" Martial Arts.
Many of you guys would like to think SD people are not good fighters and you may be partially right but all people dont train to fight. I can fight but I have a "Weird" history in the MA anyway. Well I am sure many of you guys will clip this post to pieces and use small exerpts to prove a point, that also shows immaturity, but go for it.
To conclude I would like for some one to prove a point with research instead of opinions like SD people cant fight or it doesnt look a certain way and cant therefore be CMA or from the Shaolin Temples with this I open the board for proof or links to sites or what ever. Thank You KC :) :D

[cerebus]

Well, as I've posted on this thread (several times) and on other threads (maybe several hundred times), I have no doubts that many SDers can fight, I have no doubt that SD is a good martial art in it's own way, BUT that doesn't mean SD is traditional CMA (it isn't). The research demonstrating this point has been posted more times than I even care to try counting, but it obviously is useless to continue trying to lay the facts out (and probably just as useless for me to even bother posting this in the first place) because SD people generally don't want to know the truth, they want to read only that which supports their story (hence my comment about heads being in the sand).

Anyway, ignorance is bliss, and some people just want to be happy, not informed. Don't worry, be happy (you will anyway). ;)

[Fred Sanford]

i only posted an article from a master of kun tao, talking about the history of cma in Indonesia.

It's no secret that chinese people ended up in indonesia and brought kung fu with them. Your styles made up stories and elaborations are what is disputed.

You should buy a video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about, it might open your eyes. (but probably won't). And maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about what people who you have never met would think.

[kwaichang]

I try not to make assumptions but when i attempt to open a dialogue there seems to be a reluctance from some to communicate . Instead I am asked to go to the bay area and put someone in ICU. How mature is that and how does that prove your or any ones side? I assume nothing, I too seek the truth , but it seems all you guys want is to prove how good you are with semantics. You "say" very little.
Or some of you try to project the persona of some undefeatable God. I have communicated privately with some and they are cordial and true Bushi. Yet no one has proven anything. I research all of the references that I can and there are only assumptions on your part that the "stories" are not true.
SD is a very succesful school and style, that is a good thing. I am sorry that you project the air of Jealosy with your statements perhaps not of the style though, I assume you are happy with what you do, though you dont seem to be. I wish you would try to fight another battle Fred S. I think you would have more success. KC Peace be with you. :o

[MonkeySlap Too]

KC, you sound like a chung moo guy, you run out of places to run, so you cite 'jealousy' - no, no, it's incredulity at the stupid things you guys say. I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

remember, if you didn't claim to be all that and a bag of chips, no one would care. But when you read the SD stuff, and god help us, actually see SD, it's pretty obvious how wacked out some of you folks are.

As for Fred inviting you to the ICU, beleive you were the one offering that opportunnity, he's just happy to oblige you.

Dude, you are seriously misguided. You're in Austin right? Why don't you go check out Paul Geralds Shua Chiao school. Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

Oh, and I'mnot putting Paul on the spot. He's a true CMA player, and will play just for fun.

[Fred Sanford]

So now KC after saying the pm's would stay between us you brought things onto the public forum. Serious lack of integrity. You brought up the ICU first in a post, little punk. But while it's out here, the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

[kwaichang]

I never said who invited me to ICU and you are the one who wrote you had nothing to say to me,Fred. I attempted to be as vague as possible. The only time I mentioned your name was at the end of the post.
You know I for one am not concerned I have fought guys like you in the 70's I won a few I lost a few no big deal. If I went to Pauls School and had a "friendly" match and won all you guys would say is it was due to my past experience or something.
I also show respect to those who return the favor Fred. I have not insulted you on a personal level, or what you do, what ever it is, also if you reread the post about the ICU it says,
"Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage" . KC However I had a couple in mind at that time.And I should not speak for them.

You seem to be a very arrogant individual and perhaps missed the one main teaching of Martial Arts to be Humble. I am sure you will site something about our style of SD saying most comprehensive or something like that. But that doesnt matter and oh I have fought many kinds of fighters and did ok but did I use shotokan punch or was it boxing no wait it was Shuri Te no no I know it was?????????? See what I mean. KC :confused:

[Golden Tiger]

You guys REALLY need to get a hobbie.....fussing over the weekend instead of getting out and enjoying the sunshine....darn shame.

Let's see....where to begin?

Otherwise, you would not be a 'true-believer' of the Mullet Fist.
Okay, I need to go find some adults to chat with. You kids argue amongst yourselves...

Calling SD "Mullet Fist"? Yes, you DO need to find some adults to chat with. Perhaps the playground mentality might wear off.

As MS2 pointed out, I'm a student of the Tang Shou Tao's Shen Lung Hsing-I.

And this means something? I checked out some the the clips on their website (I think) and while decent, I saw nothing extraordinary. The Pi' chaun looked over extended and the applications were very basic. But since MS2 pointed it out, I guess it means something.

you obviously don't have a clue what MS2 trains either.

I have asked a few times but all I get is "key board kung fu". Heck, I even asked to see the legend in action so that I may gain insight into his KFO rep but to no avail.

SD people generally don't want to know the truth

Truth is biased by perception, fact is not.

I'm puzzled at how you define a succesful school...

40 years of teaching in the US.
2 TV shows, two books, countless articles written about SD.
THOUSANDS of well trained, satisfied students.
Schools all over the US.
Students that have stayed with and trained in SD for longer that most of you have been alive.
A continued supply of material to which one can disect and pull new techniques.

Shall I go on......

Try your SD on beginning students there. See how you do in friendly competiton. Then tell me you have any legs to stand on with your arguments.

:rolleyes: Sending KC to someone else to test his skills MS2? See 1st quote and.

Serious lack of integrity. :eek:

the only person going to ICU would be you, and I would love to have the opportunity to send ya.

See 1st quote again..... :rolleyes:


Well, this was fun. Took me through my first cup of coffee but now it's time to work. Please post some more though, I'll be taking a break around noon-ish and would love the comic relief.

[Jhapa]

video tape of Willem De Thours or Steve Gartin so you can see what his kuntao is all about,

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.

[Golden Tiger]

may be someone should upload a clip or two to see the similarties or differences of SD and kuntao.


Excelent idea.

[sean_stonehart]

Excelent idea.

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!

[Golden Tiger]

It would be if both parties upload who is considered their "best representative exponent" to be. No excuses, no dispariging from within the groups... put up who's the best.

Uncle Bill & Sin The? Wouldn't they be considered the best exponents??

Gartin & Leonard? 2 #1 students??

Or hell... MS2 & KC....

Or ... Fred & KC ...

Let everybody see who's ****zing the in the wind!!!


I doudt they would be interested in posting such vids since with the exception of a few (myself included)that post here, they could care less what a bunch of keyboard comandos think. That and the fact that no matter who we posted, SD or not, it would be looked at with a bias and ripped apart...simple as that.

I simply was interested is seeing what KunTao looks like that everyone refers too.

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.

Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......

[kwaichang]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

[MasterKiller]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.

[kwaichang]

I thought Uncle Bill was Mr Frenchs boss HAHA I thought since he went to China with the SD people it was Elder Master Bill Leonard KC ;)

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Can Somebody tell me how I can unsubscribe to this STUPID thread!! The replies keep showing up in my e-mail inbox and I can't seem to do it in my userCP. Please make it stop!!

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, if I am not mistaken, you were in SD so why do you need to see what SD looks like? Since you have done it, one would think that you wouldn't need to see more.


Yep I was... several years, couple of black belt ranks & I chose to leave in order to do something that fit me better as a person & a MAist. My previous teacher & I are on great terms, I train regularly with one of my former classmates & we get along smashingly.

I would like to see more just for simple personal edification. I've seen a smattering of folks from Ky & Tx on the China trip mentioned below & I gotta tell ya... I was underwhelmed. So with that in mind I was wanting to see what the SD heirarchy considered "good" nowadays.

Then have a Kuntao exponent also on video running to compare the two since there was mention of doing a comparison.

That's all.


Also, I just have to ask. When you went to China with the group or even in chance meetings, did you call him "Uncle Bill" when you talked to him?

Just curious......


No actually I avoided him as best I could. There reached a point on the trip when the Ky/Tx vs Ga tensions became a little much for my taste so I didn't hang around people I didn't sweat with on a daily basis, just to avoid possible friction.

I met several people on the trip that I truly enjoyed hanging with & would again in a minute... however that number was significantly smaller than those I wouldn't care to ever again.

[sean_stonehart]

Unless he is Master Leonards nephew he didnt,due to the fact that he is alive to cont to Post KC :) :D

No but I trained his nephew & his wife for a while ... :eek: :eek: :eek:

I'm alive & breathing just fine, thanks.

[BM2]

You dunderheads, "Uncle Bill" is Willem De Thours.
Glad someone else caught that.
Also it should be added about the names being tossed around that are not even posting on here. :rolleyes:

[BM2]

And the last time I heard people talking like this was in Jr. High, oh, it is called Middle School now :o

[shen ku]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

[MonkeySlap Too]

So you have people you must call 'senior master so-so' or they will beat you up?

Wow. That is so.... stupid.

Now back to talking to adults....

[sean_stonehart]

sean i hope that i would be one of those that you would still enjoy training or chatting with?

Chris indeed you were & are still. Can you eat Chinese food yet?? ;) :eek:

[shen ku]

thanks sean ,,,,,,,just the rice ,,,,,,,i lost about 10 pounds on that trip

[humbleman]

Burma and watch cobra woman mutter inaudiable invocations to ground and kiss 15 foot cobra on head and walk away unscathed (saw this in 1936 vintage national geographic film)

[humbleman]

Sad, sad pretty Jazz...poor Marie crying for her city...

[humbleman]

...doing Kung Fu, Fat Boy. When I miss, you can sidekick.

[Judge Pen]

:confused: WTF?

[Golden Tiger]

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.......

[SimonM]

88 pages! Over 1300 posts!

This is the mother of all threads!

Christ on a crutch!

Buddha on the bottom of my shoe!

Holy fooking sh!t!

Perhaps it's time to call it a day and agree: some people like SD and some people don't. ;)

Post 1313. Am I not lucky?

[humbleman]

...the Bozo have the last word, and it looks like it might be me. Got me this time, didn't you, Ba-Gua Lady? Dear God, I miss her.

[Ou Ji]

C'mon man, we can make it to the 100 page mark. Let's go.

[tattoed monk]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

[lxtruong]

I must post. postedey post post.

[humbleman]

I don't want much, the good Lords earth beneath my feet, a gentle touch, to know one girl in life is sweet and good, there ain't no doubt, I'm talkin' about... I think I found out first hand just why Deep Purple covered that song way back in 1972...

[Judge Pen]

If you would like to know as to whether Shaolin Do is for real ask some one who has been in the art and not a bunch of by-standers who have no clue as to what is or is not real Shaolin. I have studied Shaolin Do for 15 years and related martial arts for 24 years. If you can keep your egos and your pre-conceived ideas at bay long enough to hear reasonable answers to your questions I would be more than happy to answer them.

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

[sean_stonehart]

Man, I've been in the art longer than you. Golden Tiger has been in the art longer than both of us. Before you post offereing answers, take a couple of weeks and read all the former threads on SD. Most people here have their opinions and many are more than willing to just live and let live.

But if you feel that your perspective will enlighten the forum, then post away. I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work.

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

[Judge Pen]

*ouch*

Feeling sting all the way down I-75 on that one... :eek:

Nah, no sting intended. Just some advice from experience. If one wants to jump on the SD merry-go-round then fine, but I'm reminded of the bard when it comes to SD debates: Full of sound and fury but signifying nothing.

[MasterKiller]

I must say that to many a pointless SD debate is entertainment while toiling away at work. Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

[Judge Pen]

I know. ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

Funniest thing Ive seen in awhile was "mullet fist" Bwahahahahah

I can't beleive the number of pages

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Sin does need to work on his code fu a little, though...

http://www.sinthe.com/


The colors....the colors...

[Judge Pen]

I personally beleive everything about SD stinks worse than a sack of @ssholes, but that's my opinon if you guys like it thats all that matters to you. :D

we are in a competitive field though so don't get mad if you get attacked on this forum. It's better than getting physically beat up like they did in the old days if someone disagrees with you :eek:

I don't get mad. Your opinion is in line with many here. If it mattered to me I would quit.

[yutyeesam]

I'm guessing that most of the TCMA community looks at SD with a raised eyebrow. Just a guess.

But it doesn't really matter. We live in society with tons of MMA and XMA that any debate around SD is basically moot.

I've gotten so many Karate-cized Kung-Fu students in the past, where because of the wide bow stance that they learned, that getting used to shifting from Seiping Ma to Gung Ma and vice versa took several classes to understand. The folks who come from SD backgrounds to me are certainly no exception.

Not that it's any better or worse, it's just different. The power generation ideas are more Japanese in nature, from what I've seen. Which is why you don't see many Asian masters of this art! :D j/k

There. I've contributed to the 100 post mark! Keep it going!

[SimonM]

Hey, I resemble that remark! :eek:

I don't even have an opinion on SD (having nothing to go by but this endless argument) and I like to pop by occasionally - even if just to curse the madness of the thread that wouldn't die! :p :D

[Ou Ji]

The thread that wouldn't die. The deadliest Dim Mak can't stop it now.

So, any new sightings to prove the existense of Shaolin Do?
Mullet shots don't count. No doctored photos either.

Here's one showing the Shaolin Do 'Ride The Tiger' (http://www.actarus.it/trash/watson/Bigfoot/bigfoot_footage3.jpg) pose.

Debunk that you skeptics!

[octagonal raven]

shaolin-do looks to have a totally made up history and well I don't want to totally dog something out without having seen it first hand. I do BJJ anyway so what do I know about kung fu? It looks highly suspect though and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Ride the tiger? more like 'ride the beyatch' oh I'm sorry was su kong a male? I forget.

[Ou Ji]

octagonal raven
Serious question for you. Why are you here?

Just wondering why so many non-cma guys feel compelled to comment about styles they know little or nothing about. Anyone have an answer for this?

[Ou Ji]

D a m n, I'm trying to hit page 90. Maybe this one will do it.

[Ou Ji]

Or this one.

Shaolin Do
Shaolin Doh!
Shaolin Dough
Shaolin Doe

[Ou Ji]

Come on 90. Here we go. 90 coming up.

[Ou Ji]

Crapped out again. Ok, got to take a break and rest.

[Ou Ji]

Hey, I just noticed my post count isn't changing. I've been stuck on 128 for quite awhile. Same with you guys.

Maybe Shaolin Do posts don't count as real comments. Or we're in the Shaolin Do Twilight Zone or something. What if we get stuck here and can't get back to normal posts.

I feel the walls moving in. Is it getting stuffy in here?

H E L P !!!!!

[BlueTravesty]

there would be a certain sense of ironic justice if posts on this thread didn't count :D

[BentMonk]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

[octagonal raven]

Serious question for you. Why are you here?

I used to do some kung fu, but at some point I realized that it wasn't too realistic for the most part. I've seen enough to know what's legit and what isn't. I won't name names but I've seen some of the people with the big names in the magazines and been to their schools and not been impressed. Shaolin-do is definately crap, sorry I guess the truth hurts.

[SimonM]

Octagonal Raven: I've seen MMA/RBSD/"Dark Arts" Masters I could wipe the floor with and I've seen Gong Fu masters who come from law enforcement backgrounds, have HAD to use martial arts in self defense regularly and who (to this day) stress test every single technique and require that their students stress test it. Sweeping generalizations such as suggesting that I used to do kung fu, but at some point I realized it wasn't too realistic are the first stones on the path to trolldom. Had you said "I had an experience with a bad kwoon and decided to take MMA because I found a good school" you would probably be more warmly recieved. None of us here really support the image of the stereotypical "SPJ dance = 133t warrior" that many people wrongly believe dominates the Gong Fu world yet most of us at least include Gong Fu amoung our repitoires even if it is not the only martial art we have practiced.

At my kwoon they teach northern arts, southern arts and western boxing. Where does one begin and the other end? I honestly don't know. Does it matter? Not in the slightest. Gong Fu just means hard work.

[humbleman]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Judge Pen]

HOLY TANTRA, KATO!!! Just realized that the photo of Judge Penn is dead ringer of redneck in choreographed fight at truck stop in movie "Natural Born Killers". Beep! Beep! :eek: :eek: :eek:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Too bad that photo is of George Clooney from "O' Brother Where Art Thou?" I wonder if he cameoed in NBK's?

But thanks for playing.

[Fu-Pow]

yeah....and Shaolin Do SuXors! :mad:

[BlueTravesty]

[malevolent voice of doom] YOUR POST COUNT MAY NOT CHANGE, BUT EACH WORD ON THIS THREAD INCREASES THE "FOR REALNESS" OF SHAOLIN DO. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!! :D

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! :eek:

must stop this change... kung-fu school shirt and pants... turning into... a gi.... forms I first learned... turning into katas... talking... in... labored, broken english...

[SimonM]

One thing I like about doing Gong Fu at a college. There ain't no uniform at all. The closest thing to it is that a lot of us wear adidas track pants. What can I say? They are well made and not too expensive.

[BlueTravesty]

agreed :) we just wear a shirt with the school's logo and a pair of Fist brand pants (available from Jonie Uniforms.) Sifu has mentioned that something more elaborate would be nice for tournaments, but this is as close to a "uniform" as he's comfortable with for the time being.

[SimonM]

That (plus a sash) was the uniform at my old school... Of course substitute the NBDMA logo but you get my drift. ;)

I miss the guys at the Kwoon sometimes. Dave Kim, my favorite old sparring partner, just got back from Shaolin NY; apparently he is much faster now. I expect that with this leg-focussed training regimen I am currently embarking on my speed will also probably increase (along with the deftness of my footwork) so I am looking foreward to having a go with him in a few years when I get back but...

Well...

You get pretty close to people at a kwoon...

You sweat, learn and occasionally bleed together. It forms a camraderie strong enough at times that it is unsurprising that in ancient times students of the same Sifu were called brothers.

Let's see if we can bump this thread up to 91....

[Judge Pen]

Let's see if we can bump this thread up to 91....

Why not make this thread a sticky? That way, whenever someone wants to bring up the same old SD arguments, we can re-direct them here. :D

[tattoed monk]

I used to do some kung fu, but at some point I realized that it wasn't too realistic for the most part. I've seen enough to know what's legit and what isn't. I won't name names but I've seen some of the people with the big names in the magazines and been to their schools and not been impressed. Shaolin-do is definately crap, sorry I guess the truth hurts.
Have you even participated fully in a Shaolin Do program or is your opinion based on your preconceived ideas of what shaolin is?

[tattoed monk]

One thing I like about doing Gong Fu at a college. There ain't no uniform at all. The closest thing to it is that a lot of us wear adidas track pants. What can I say? They are well made and not too expensive.
The "GI" is used because of it's durability. If you look close enough at the Shaolin monks that perform world wide their "uniform " looks almost exactly like the uniforms worn in Shaolin Do! The body of material taught within the Shaolin do curriculum is enough to give credit to the legitimacy which the school claims. Never judge a book by it's cover only by it's contents. The belt ranking system that is used is a modern inovation to gauge and keep track of a students progress. Everything in life has to adapt to change or it will fade away and die!

[BlueTravesty]

The "GI" is used because of it's durability. If you look close enough at the Shaolin monks that perform world wide their "uniform " looks almost exactly like the uniforms worn in Shaolin Do! The body of material taught within the Shaolin do curriculum is enough to give credit to the legitimacy which the school claims. Never judge a book by it's cover only by it's contents.

I can't argue the gi's durability, and the Fist pants recommended by my sifu are about the same kind of material, only with elastic waist and cuffs (and a little pocket on the inside.)

What I WILL argue is that the monk uniforms look ANYTHING like the gi. I've seen this argument on one of the SD schools' website (http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/uniforms.shtml) and I really can't say I agree. Yes, in pictures like this, it bears a passing resemblance to the gi. (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/mzine/0404_Shaolin_monk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php%3****icle%3D588&h=468&w=250&sz=18&tbnid=bndSav23kPoJ:&tbnh=125&tbnw=66&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) However, in pictures like this, (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://newsletter.faluninfo.at/pictures/n21/shaolin_monk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://newsletter.faluninfo.at/n21/a333.html&h=600&w=400&sz=42&tbnid=4Aj1zb8Qn6QJ:&tbnh=133&tbnw=88&hl=en&start=9&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)
or this, (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ukchinesemusic.com/Shaolin_Monk_CY.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ukchinesemusic.com/CY-activities.html&h=1194&w=808&sz=80&tbnid=Cfg3rwkGPqUJ:&tbnh=150&tbnw=101&hl=en&start=17&prev=/images%3Fq%3DShaolin%2BMonk%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den %26lr%3D%26sa%3DG) and this one, (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:4PSMTIfckRwJ:web.tiscali.it/kabuki/Cultura/Shaolin/monk7.jpg) the difference is more pronounced, and it's all the same uniform being worn different ways.
Even barring the obvious difference in color (Monks typically used Saffron or Tumeric to dye their robes, and then there are the grey uniforms as well.) not to mention the leggings, the only similarity between the two is the fact that the folds overlap in the front in both, and they do so in different ways (the monk uniform closes at the side around the upper rib, where the gi closes further down around the hips.)

Since you mentioned it though, I found this quote rather interesting .

"...those that practiced outside of the monasteries wore their every day clothing. They did not have a special uniform to go out and practice in. Sams are a creation of the movie industry and what it wants to present as a traditional uniform."

I'm not sure what Mr. Tony Gray means by "Sams" but I've got a feeling he means the typical "Kung-fu" jacket, usually black with white trim. If this is the case, he is correct in that those who practiced non-shaolin forms of kung-fu wore their regular clothing. This clothing in some parts of China included "frog-buttons" and the so-called "Mandarin Collar." In fact this form of clothing was quite popular around Shanghai, which is why Shanghai's Chin Woo (http://www.chinwoo.com/) (Ging Wu) Athletic Association chose it as the basis of their dress code. Can you guess what colors they used? If you guessed black with white trim, you are correct!

The assertion that this uniform is a creation of the movie industry is false, however, considering that while Chin Woo (http://www.chinwoo.com/) is featured in Bruce Lee's "The Chinese Connection" (known outside of the US as "Fist of Fury.") as well as Jet Li's "Fist of Legend" it is in fact a real institute which is very popular in Hong Kong as well as having a branches in the U.S., Canada, Europe, South america, etc. I don't know if all the branches today have kept that particular uniform, but I am sure some have.


So what's the point? Is a gi a valid choice of uniform for a kung fu class? Sure, but so are long-sleeved/sleeveless uniforms with frog-buttons, or even a tank-top and Adidas brand track pants- if you are doing true kung fu, it will show in your technique, no matter what you wear. Does a gi look like a monk's uniform? It bears some resemblance, but then, so does my terry-cloth bath robe (which, by the way, was made in China.) Is Shaolin-Do a legitimate branch of Shaolin? I don't see why not, since many other non-Shaolin arts also have Shaolin roots; Long Fist, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Karate and Kenpo being chief among them. Will I stop asking questions with prepared answers so I can wake up at a decent time tomorrow? Well... uhh, yeah, I guess so. G'nite :)

[Judge Pen]

That's a very thoughtful well thought-out post and I agree with it 100%. Incidently, the SD post explaining the use of the gi by Master Gray was written, in part, as a response to some SD schools switching to the frog-button unifoms.

The dress doesn't make the art. Gi or no, SD is what it is.

[lxtruong]

All of you non-SDers. Let me ask you this:

Suppose tomorrow, your teacher decides to switch uniforms. Let's say from whatever you wear to a gi (assuming you don't wear a gi already). Do you follow his example? Do you say "you're a big phony, I'm outta here"? Which do you do.

[PangQuan]

Question. There is a shaolin do school in my area. I checked them out, they are not recognized by the shaolin do society. Where does that put them? Phoney or just un recognized?

My teacher teaches some shaolin as well as other various styles, not to mention hes a total gangster, so im not interested in switching schools, just curious of where this school stands in the eyes of the shaolin do society...

[Judge Pen]

Question. There is a shaolin do school in my area. I checked them out, they are not recognized by the shaolin do society. Where does that put them? Phoney or just un recognized?

My teacher teaches some shaolin as well as other various styles, not to mention hes a total gangster, so im not interested in switching schools, just curious of where this school stands in the eyes of the shaolin do society...

The SDA (shaolin-do association) is an organization that provides a club membership for a fee. You get discounts on certain seminars and tournament fees if you are a member and you attend an SDA sanctioned event. The members of the SDA are primarily found in Kentucky and Texas.

Schools that are not a member of the SDA are not any less legitimate in the eyes of SD. My teacher is a founding member of the SDA, but none of his students are current members. As such, we are not officially recognized as an SDA school. It doesn't affect our relationship with GM The'.

[humbleman]

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back. I think it involved using accupressure points and arteries in various combinations and at various times of day according to flow to do some extremely ugly things, supposedly going back to the day when one would basically mete out a death sentence with their use. :( And, no offense to Judge Penn on the choreographed fight scene, I watched the Kentucky educational T.V. series on tape and some of the choreographed 2-man weapon sets required as much skill maybe more than a lot of katas. )As far as uniforms etc. who the heck cares? It's the soul of what is being taught, whether it works, whether it develops the soul of the student that matters, in my humble underbelt on-thy-belly-shalt-thou-crawl-opinion.

[Judge Pen]

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back.

I think that he did a demonstration, but I'm not aware of any seminars on Judge's Pen. Of course my screen name had nothing to do with SD or GM Sin. It had more to do with my profession.

[cbishop]

Have you even participated fully in a Shaolin Do program or is your opinion based on your preconceived ideas of what shaolin is?

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

this is an insult to all hung ga players.

exibit B
bagua (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/SnakePaKuaGrooms(shaolindo).avi)

all i can say is "OH MY GOD" :rolleyes:


going to shaolindo to learn hung ga or bagua is like trying to get
a good steak at mcdonalds.

[PangQuan]

bad links.

media player does not play when you copy paste to address bar.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge Pen is not real.




















In the Buddhist sense :)

[cbishop]

they're not links. they're urls. and they are correct.

[SimonM]

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

this is an insult to all hung ga players.


That was really ugly.


exibit B
bagua (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/SnakePaKuaGrooms(shaolindo).avi)

all i can say is "OH MY GOD" :rolleyes:


That was supposed to be Ba Gua? Ok, I don't practice the art myself but I've seen it performed enough times to know it doesn't look like that!!! Eurgh!


My question is: is this typical of SD or are these just two really attrocious players?

[BlueTravesty]

Thank you for the perspective on Mr. Gray's uniform article. I was wondering which critics he was referring to, though I didn't imagine it would be someone within his organization.

I hope my response to tatooed monk did not seem overbearing in light of this. To tell the truth, the main reason for putting it together in the first place was to help clear some writer's block (it worked, something that neither febreeze nor pseudoephedrine can do; seperately or in combination. trust me.)

[PangQuan]

thanks for the fix.

i could only find one positive thing to say regarding either one of those. The man in the bagua video had fast hands...

i cant even manage to come up with an answer as to why that tiger/crane was so bad. very similar to a section in a tiger/crane i know, but he had no technique at all. I wonder if he knows any of the applications to what he is doing...

bagua? hmmm...no...

[PangQuan]

i saw some of those shaolin do guys at the park one day...they didnt do much while our class was there filming, but i saw a bit.

one guy seemed like he may have had some mean kicks, and the other guy used a dao, and a kwan dao. his movements reminded me more of japanese influence with the dao, no tight wraps, not many circular movements. and the kwan dao....lets just say its not like our kwan dao.

i wont place a judgement on a martial style, because thats wrong. We all know, have heard, and have said, that is the practitioner not the style....


we wear kung fu pants, kwons, and tee shirts with the Wu character on the back and our school name and moto on the front in small characters.

the kung fu pants are very tough, and i normally wear tee shirts out side school, even i wear kwons. Basically we dress like normal people do. with kung fu style.

i dont seem to understand the terminology mixture in SD. It confuses me.

i dont really want to sift through 90 pages of shaolin do material looking, so if possible would someone post a vid of a shaolin do, um kata, that the feel is a good representation?

[Golden Tiger]

Suppose tomorrow, your teacher decides to switch uniforms. Let's say from whatever you wear to a gi (assuming you don't wear a gi already). Do you follow his example? Do you say "you're a big phony, I'm outta here"? Which do you do.

Yes, I would.... ;) j/k

If I remember correctly, the "Judge Pen" is a weapon that Grandmaster Sin was giving seminars on a while back.

Yes it is but no he hasn't.

I think that he did a demonstration, but I'm not aware of any seminars on Judge's Pen.

It was a set of steel chop sticks, not a "Judge Pin " per se...although.....

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss..

Then don't be. You should never do something that you are sorry for. Btw, I can't open the links but if they are t4he vids I am thinking of, yep, they suck. But for the record, I once heard a cover of "Stairway to Heaven" that sucked too.....

so if possible would someone post a vid of a shaolin do, um kata, that the feel is a good representation?

I soon will be able to transfer vid to files so I will see what I can do. (JP, I remeber you wanted some things, care to refresh my memories?)

[Judge Pen]

haven't piped in. sorry to be an @ss.. but, shaolindo sucks. how do i come
to this conclusion??


exibit A
tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

I remember that video bothered me. I know this form. I play it differently. I've done it in front of people who have an independent understanding of Hung Gar and they told me that it's not bad, but they believe that Hung Gar plays it differently than I do. So, the point, I guess, is that SD's Tiger/Crane is different than mosts (no surprises), but is good in it's own way. I've never had anyone that really knows Hung Gar tell me how, though. I don't think that video is a great represntation though.

Sean, I'll step up to the plate. With my teacher's permission, I'll do the same portion of this form and post it here if you will film it and help me post it (I'm severely technology challenged). I'm not saying it's good, but I believe it to be better. I'll even critique myself as to what I think I do well and what I should do better. I've only had the form for about 9 months and I'm still polishing up various elements of it.

Oh, I might as well put up San Njie here to as I promised Vash that months ago and never was able to have it filmed.

Now, let's hope I don't turn into hedge (bullshido reference) and say I'll post and never do. It will be a while before I can get down to Atlanta and film and get Sean to post) Work, closing on house, holidays etc., but eventually. . . .

GT, PM sent.

[cbishop]

much respect for stepping up to the plate there. mind you that my grievance
is with misrepresentation of the name shaolin and teaching of training methods
which are not well understood. i have heard (from trusted sources) that most
shaolin do guys do train application and spend a good deal of time hashing out
those ideas in sparring sessions.

i think shaolin do practicioners would do well to find out how these forms
are trained and applied from someone who actually trains it as a primary art
and not a hodge podge of different arts and energies. otherwise.. as
enrique would say, "your sh!t is fake!!!"

in regards to the Gis. judo gi is great for throwing. very sturdy.
i've also found that a $25 d!ckies jacket is very sturdy and will do just
about the same job for most guys. (not judoka of course)
my point is that equally suitable uniforms could be arranged with western
style clothing (or middle eastern for that matter). so, why choose japanese?
it's not for me.. but, hung yi xiang taught his chinese xing yi students wearing
a japanese gi :rolleyes: and he WAS a bad@ss.

did hedge back out on you too ?? i drove all the way to austin from
okc, and the little punk wouldn't meet up. didn't stop him from talking sh!t though.

[SimonM]

i cant even manage to come up with an answer as to why that tiger/crane was so bad. very similar to a section in a tiger/crane i know, but he had no technique at all. I wonder if he knows any of the applications to what he is doing...



It's similar enough in outward appearance to the first section of Tiger and Crane as taught at my Kwoon in Canada to be recognizeable but, I agree, it was like the bloke knew no application at all. He also had no stability, he wobbled all over the place kind of aimlessly.

Again though I must say that I am unwilling to judge a whole school off of two short vids. I look foreward to Judge Penn's take. :D

[cbishop]

judge pen, sorry to reply to your pm here.. but everytime i write a big fat
pm response my browser locks up, and i lose everything.. :confused:

i'm not in austin, but oklahoma city. i just drive down to texas to find
other fighters of various schools to mix it up with. my older brother teaches
in san antonio, and he's my main source regarding ShaolinDo(n't).

sorry so short. my pm were much longer.. promise! :D

i'm betting that once you find sumdumgoy, you'll drop the gi AND the shaolindo
name. ;)

[Judge Pen]

:D I don't wear a gi anymore. My teacher's schools wears the frog button tops for a formal uniform.

[MonkeySlap Too]

JP - how the Tiger/Crane is played differently is pretty easy guess - the SD method probably does not have any of the 'hay gung' skills distinctive to Hung Gar. Kind of like if you learned it out of a book without ever seeing it live...


I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD' - as we have yet to see it, even in the clips from Sin The'!

[Golden Tiger]

I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD' - as we have yet to see it, even in the clips from Sin The'!

"good SD" is an oxymoron silly boy........ How about some exciting MS2 clips?

[Judge Pen]

I'm looking forward to seeing clips of 'good SD'

I never said it would be good. I said that it was certainly different than the clip and, in my opinion, better. I'm not couting on changing anyone's minds here, but I'm one of the most vocal SDers here so why shouldn't I step up and show what I have. I'm average at best, but I work hard and I'm stubborn.

[sean_stonehart]

:D
Sean, I'll step up to the plate. With my teacher's permission, I'll do the same portion of this form and post it here if you will film it and help me post it (I'm severely technology challenged). I'm not saying it's good, but I believe it to be better. I'll even critique myself as to what I think I do well and what I should do better. I've only had the form for about 9 months and I'm still polishing up various elements of it.

Oh, I might as well put up San Njie here to as I promised Vash that months ago and never was able to have it filmed.

Now, let's hope I don't turn into hedge (bullshido reference) and say I'll post and never do. It will be a while before I can get down to Atlanta and film and get Sean to post) Work, closing on house, holidays etc., but eventually. . . .

GT, PM sent.

You're covered. Get me the initial media & I'll take it from there. :D

[Judge Pen]

What kind of camera would be easiset? I don't have one and I will need to borrow of buy a camera anyway.

[Starchaser107]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

[Judge Pen]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

I like you reference to Lianne Lin. You have my respect for that my friend.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey, I wasn't paying close attention. Your own clip, eh? I'd like to see that - and I'm not being sarcastic here either.

[PangQuan]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

[Okami]

Yet deployments and life have caused me to leave the boards for some time and I find that NOTHING has changed.

SD arguments will go on after all who started this mess have turned to dust and noone even remembers why we started this argument in the first place.

[SimonM]

hey guys check out these new songs I've done if you get the chance.

I make music under the name MIZRI

links to the songs are here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=74017) .

(1) FU JOW

(2) AZN GRLZ

you can also check out AZN GRLZ at this site (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Lianne_Lin)

Godbless,
Mizri
Sc107

AZN GRLZ is totally going straight onto my MP3 player! That was definately worth the 1 minute dl man.

[SimonM]

AZN GRLZ is totally going straight onto my MP3 player! That was definately worth the 1 minute dl man.


Ok, how do I get a copy. I have no credit card and I guess it's not a free dl, just a stream. :eek:

[Starchaser107]

Ok, how do I get a copy. I have no credit card and I guess it's not a free dl, just a stream. :eek:

It's a free download, also streaming.

I'm just trying to get it out there.

Peace.

and thanks to everyone that checked it out.

[Judge Pen]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

Don't get too excited. I haven't even bought a video camera yet so it will be a while before they get shot, converted and posted. I'm an attorney, so everything is delayed in my world.

Starchaser, you're just gained 1000000+ street credits. The theme sone for yellow fever men everywhere.

[BM2]

im getting excited.

you better be good.

:p

Did anyone else think that JP was being pimped?

[SimonM]

Starchaser, you're just gained 1000000+ street credits. The theme sone for yellow fever men everywhere.

Hell yeah man! Take a peek at my blog thread. I was listening to that song a lot on the busride home. :DLink to my blog thread. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38364)

[Starchaser107]

again respect due to everyone for checking it out.
Godbless.

[Vash]

ST107 -

Both were hot.

In particular, I liked Fu Jow.

Though "Sometimes" is still on my MP3 player, and I'm wary of adding new stuff, both made the cut.

Absolutely excellent.

*waits for CD release*

[SimonM]

Actually, yeah, Fu Jow was pretty good too but Azn Grlz was just so fitting to my weekend. As I got in no fights Fu Jow was not so. ;)

Tell you what; next time I need to break a blokes arm I'll stick that one on the MP3 player afterward. ;)

Just kidding; both songs will find their way onto my MP3 player at various times but considering that my player is 128 megs and I have a couple gigs of music I change up what I am playing all the time.

[DrunkenMaster]

Just a quick FYI on Shaoln Do and their Tai Chi, specifically the "Yang Style Tai Chi 64 Move Long Form" that is taught in their level 1 internal program.

(BTW - I searched the forum and did not find this specific info...I apologize if it is repetitive...)

The form they teach as the "Yang Style Tai Chi 64 Move Long Form" appears to be a variation of the Yang Short Form developed by Chen Man Ching, which he called the 37 step form. The sequence of steps is identical, the difference being in how some of the movements are performed (ex: ward off / roll back, cloud hands, etc.). There is also a difference in stance / leg position.

Master Ching shortened the form to make it easier to teach and perform. There is an abundance of material on master Ching on the ionternet for those that are interested. Master Ching taught throughout southeast asia....

The form I learned is the Chen Man Ching variation, not the Tai Chi 24.

The only video performance I personally have of the 37 form is a video called "Tai Chi for Health - Yang Short Form" by Terence Dunn. The sequence of movements is exactly as I learned, although the movements themselves differ somewhat.

DM

[humbleman]

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Too bad that photo is of George Clooney from "O' Brother Where Art Thou?" I wonder if he cameoed in NBK's?

But thanks for playing.
I would be remiss if I didn't take this oppurtunity to thank Grandmaster Sin The for the ride of a lifetime. And, to a certain Erie PA Grandmaster whom without having had him put my life through the purifying fires of all Buddhist and Taoist and Western hells all rolled into one, the journey, yet unended, would never have been possible.:eek: :eek: :eek: And, with great respect for Judge Penn, I wish to state that I was far from playing, too much blood, sweat, bruises, and tears for that. And the lesson is only beginning. The greatest gift sensei Brian gave me was that he taught me how to learn. Anything. As in give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime. A bit scary being on your own, but I'm a big boy now.

[MasterKiller]

Are you the same Humbleman that keeps getting schooled for trolling mma.tv?

[kwaichang]

Well I have not posted in quite a while so you guys are still at it I see. Well I guess the Late Bruce Lee said it best " Time well wasted is time not wasted at all" BTW where is this clip of Tiger Crane. I trained with an instructor of TC and White Crane in the late 70's and early 80's I would like to see it Thanks KC:)

[Judge Pen]

KC, here is the link to the Tiger-Crane clip they were referring to:


tigercrane (http://164.58.65.137/othermedia/shaolindo!haha/tigercrane_shaolindo.avi)

Well, apparently, the link doesn't work anymore. Try here:

http://164.58.65.137/media/shaolindo!haha/

[David Jamieson]

ok, that was weird.... to say the least.

That guy's a novice though apparently, maybe he's just trying too hard to go fast?

[Judge Pen]

ok, that was weird.... to say the least.

That guy's a novice though apparently, maybe he's just trying too hard to go fast?

He wasn't a novice to SD, but probably a novice to Tiger/Crane. That form is not normally taught until 3rd black level (at least 8-10 years in the system although it varies from school to school). Regardless, someone with that experience should know better. As I said earlier in the thread, I learned this form within the past year, and I was tught this section vastly different than the guy in the clip.

Oh, I don't know the guy, but I heard that he used to brag about having really fast hands so . . . . :rolleyes: Yeah, he was trying to go too fast.

[lxtruong]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

[Judge Pen]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

Well, it got started and then the guy that was doing it for us had some personal issues come up and he hasn't been able to finish it.

As for TC and when it is taught, it does vary from school to school. Master Garry has some hand-written notes from GM The' regarding the required rank advancement for each rank and T/C is taught in third. That's what we go by, but it does vary.

What do you guys have to learn for 2nd? We learn 3 jians, 5 elements of Hsing-Ie, 12 Hsing Ie animals, Linkage, and Hua Tao 5 animal play (live, dead, and sien tien chi).

In third it's 4 Roads of Hua, 2 Hua two-man sets, Tiger-Crane, Double-broad, Double-hook, and 9 section whip chain.

Is Master Joe's curriculum different?

[lxtruong]

Well, it got started and then the guy that was doing it for us had some personal issues come up and he hasn't been able to finish it.

As for TC and when it is taught, it does vary from school to school. Master Garry has some hand-written notes from GM The' regarding the required rank advancement for each rank and T/C is taught in third. That's what we go by, but it does vary.

What do you guys have to learn for 2nd? We learn 3 jians, 5 elements of Hsing-Ie, 12 Hsing Ie animals, Linkage, and Hua Tao 5 animal play (live, dead, and sien tien chi).

In third it's 4 Roads of Hua, 2 Hua two-man sets, Tiger-Crane, Double-broad, Double-hook, and 9 section whip chain.

Is Master Joe's curriculum different?

Haha. It would probably do you guys good to at least put in enough information for prospective students. There's absolutely nothing there. I'm sure it's not good for recruiting students.

We follow what Master Leonard does: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Master Sin just changed up our internal curriculum, are you changing yours too?

[SimonM]

Tiger-Crane should be 2nd black material. Oh and Judge Pen, why is the Mullins-shaolin webpage all...incomplete? It looks like someone tried to transition it to some new software and then got bored in the middle. :)

Ayah! If I were in Shaolin Do I'd be doing Black Belt material. What about Jian training when do they start that? And do they teach Iron Thread at all? Those were the three things I was working on when I left Canada (plus another Qigong form and an elbow form)...

[Judge Pen]

Haha. It would probably do you guys good to at least put in enough information for prospective students. There's absolutely nothing there. I'm sure it's not good for recruiting students.

We follow what Master Leonard does: http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

Master Sin just changed up our internal curriculum, are you changing yours too?

Well, you can cut the guy some slack, the water-heater in the apartment above him exploded and the ceiling fell in on his apartment. :rolleyes:

As long as it's in Sin The's hand-written notes and he approves it, then I suppose it ok, right? And that list you linked to includes material that may or may not be taught out at that level. I know you guys don't test on 16 forms from 3rd to 4th. The question is what are the standard forms that you guys test on from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, and 3rd to 4th?

Our internal curriculum changed recently also, but I'm not focusing on that at the moment and I couldn't tell you how.

[Judge Pen]

Ayah! If I were in Shaolin Do I'd be doing Black Belt material. What about Jian training when do they start that? And do they teach Iron Thread at all? Those were the three things I was working on when I left Canada (plus another Qigong form and an elbow form)...

Jian training starts at 2nd black (unless you count the tai chi jian which many people learn early when studying internal).

We don't theach Hung Gar's Iron Thread form. We do teach a lot of qi gong and elbow techniques are in most every long form we teach.

The lower ranks teach smaller forms that build a foundation to the more advanced material later. At least that's supposed to be how it works, but it depends on the teacher and the student, I guess.

[SimonM]

From what you are saying I'd be at a black belt level in SD. If I believed in Belts (I don't) that would be kind of nifty. ;)

Still I don't really feel like "registering my hands as a deadly weapon".

Does anyone here still remember that myth about black belts? It was popular when I was growing up.:D

[Willow Palm]

I shouldn't be posting this because I have nothing posistive to add to this thread, but someone has to.

[B]How long will this thread go?[B] This is probably the first that I've had to skip to the 90 + page just to post. Geez..:rolleyes:

[Golden Tiger]

JP, the hand written notes (poster form originally I think sent to Louisville then kinda made their way around) were done in the late 80's. He listed out the 10 forms that were available at the time for each rank. Then when more new stuff started being taught out, they were added here and there to the advancement list. To make it easier for everyone to get something they needed (not everyone got all that was taught and some couldn't come to Lexington to get it) he instituted the "required material and the optional material".

So, either one is correct. The written list is more structured while the option one allows some freedom in what people want to learn. But with either one, its still 64 and Clasical for 1st, Hsing I for 2nd, 4 roads 4th and the 8 (4 or 5) for 5th, 6th, rips a persons heart out and show it to them before they die.


Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

[SimonM]

How long will this thread go?


We are trying to get it up to 100 pages. Thanks for helping. :D

[Judge Pen]

JP, the hand written notes (poster form originally I think sent to Louisville then kinda made their way around) were done in the late 80's. He listed out the 10 forms that were available at the time for each rank. Then when more new stuff started being taught out, they were added here and there to the advancement list. To make it easier for everyone to get something they needed (not everyone got all that was taught and some couldn't come to Lexington to get it) he instituted the "required material and the optional material".

So, either one is correct. The written list is more structured while the option one allows some freedom in what people want to learn. But with either one, its still 64 and Clasical for 1st, Hsing I for 2nd, 4 roads 4th and the 8 (4 or 5) for 5th, 6th, rips a persons heart out and show it to them before they die.


Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

That's my understanding, but Master Garry sticks pretty close to the handwritten list. All my tests so far have followed them to the letter. I anticipate that my next test will too (which will be a bear with the 2 two man sets in there).

[Judge Pen]

From what you are saying I'd be at a black belt level in SD. If I believed in Belts (I don't) that would be kind of nifty. ;)

Still I don't really feel like "registering my hands as a deadly weapon".

Does anyone here still remember that myth about black belts? It was popular when I was growing up.:D

No reason to believe in belts. I don't put stock in the stripes on my sash, but I do look better in black then in white. :cool:

Yeah, that myth always made me laugh. That's one myth that the internet actually helped debunk instead of propogate.

[Judge Pen]

Trying to get to 100 pages? My computer shows this thread at 141 pages. I wonder why that is?

[lxtruong]

Lxtruong, did you pick up the spear form last week?

No, I skipped out because I thought that he was going work outside and I injured my foot. I didn't want to aggravate it by working outside with shoes on. Of course he didn't so I'm minus one drunken spear. I'm 0-3 for learning cool katas, since I missed both the new sword and staff kata Master Sin taught out last and they both looked awesome as hell.

[humbleman]

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: Are you the same Humbleman that keeps getting schooled for trolling mma.tv?
Sorry, never met one of those. Although we do quite a bit of trolling here in Erie in the summertime. The fishing is quite good.:D :D :D

[kwaichang]

Hua 1, 2, 3, and 4, Modern Hua , Chang Chuan, 7 section Chain whip, 2nd Level Broad Sword, Butterfly Knives, Pang Lung Pang, 1st and 2nd 2 man sets of Hua, that is what I prepared for testing ther is required and alternate material there is also Tang Lang Chien as well. KC :eek: that is how you feel afterward enough lactic acid to starty a bulldozer with a battery.:)

[Royal Dragon]

Wow, you guys learn ALOT of forms!! How do you have time to get anything more than the outside shell of them?

[kwaichang]

For each rank of progression that is the number of years it should take. 2-3rd 3years 3-4th 4years etc etc. Not all people progress beyond the outer shell but the object for all is not to learn all the intricacies of the art , the conditioning itself is something else that is worth the time. In the old Kung Fu tv show it was said it may take half a lifetime to master one art. However that is dependent upon the spirit, dedication and attitude. KC:D

[lxtruong]

Check out the announcement about the new seminar material for the next two years on the main SD website.

[Golden Tiger]

Woohooo, woohooooooo:D