Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

BM2 started it.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=57&pp=15

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

[wdl]

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D

[wdl]

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D


ROFL. Well you know, it's still winter here and those Christmas and Thanksgiving pounds are still around. It also means I'm whiter than casper the ghost. It's rained so much here this winter I've not been able to get out either. So, if you want to be blinded by the light I'll be happy to enlighten you and do you a favor. :p

I'm single, I need a woman. If I thought that snapping a shot of my nipples and putting them here would get me a date I'd do it in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt anyone else who's single and looking for a date even if they have Jesse Ventura's nipples are going to score off this thread either. :D

-Will

[MasterKiller]

Maybe JP could keep you warm with his ewok-nipples.

[Starchaser107]

Gunda. Gunda
Acha nipple Gunda :cool:

[Starchaser107]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.

[sean_stonehart]

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.


Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

[Judge Pen]

Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

I'm taller than you.

[sean_stonehart]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

[David Jamieson]

I'm so hairless it's not funny. Man i'm 5 months shy of 28 and I don't even have a full beard yet. My moustache just started to take some real substance. It's a sad , sad state of things, so i try to compensate where I can. :(

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

[wdl]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

Last time you corner judged up here weren't you in the ring with master reid and the white/yellow belts? Remember Wookie? The one that got DQ'd for excessive contact with master mullins standing there beside that ring?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

thanks so much for the encouragement.
I feel so much better about myself now.

[David Jamieson]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek:

[MasterKiller]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek: You coming in for a landing?

[David Jamieson]

ewww, no, no, no, no...

just a reminder to be courteous and it keeps yer shorts clean.

[sean_stonehart]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

[wdl]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

ROFL. Wookie's a big guy. He has procreated recently and there is now a junior Miss Wookie. Scary thought. A female wookie.

-Will

[GeneChing]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...

[sean_stonehart]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...


Oh Crap yes!!! "A Star Wars Christmas" was the name... the Empire did a home invasion on Chewie's place... didn't the cast make a special appearance in the last 30 seconds or so??

[Starchaser107]

Hey keep it above board. Nipples are fine but posterior isn't.
Why, cause I said so.
I'll have to ask Gene to speak to you about Colons.

[wdl]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.

[wdl]

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.


ROFL! YES! Dude, if it's out there I'll find it. Trust me. :)

-Will

[wdl]

A Shockwave Starwars Christmas (http://www.shockcomics.com/swxmas/)

[MasterKiller]

Never mention Star Wars X-mas again lest I bring the wrath.

At least you can still get "Droids" and "Ewok Adventures" on DVD.

[Starchaser107]

Caravan of Courage was pretty cool, but the battle for Endor was really sad :mad: ..what was the whole point of it all. it makes caravan's story seem so pointless.
Oh well... :(

[wdl]

Hahaha, I found it. The best thing I know how to compare it to would be that time as a small child, when you had the epiphany about Mister Roger's Neighborhood. George Lucas' punishment in hell will be having to watch it over and over again. :eek:

-Will

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Starchaser107]
I wish I were that flexible,

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

[wdl]

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

You were 25 in the pic with the straight up side kick? How young were you when you acheived that?

-Will

[BM2]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

[wdl]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

HAHA.

But how young were you when you first were able to do that?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I can get mine up but it's more to an angle and not completely straight like that. It has a slight bend. I guess if I work it every day I might eventually get it to go straight up. Maybe I can even do it so well that I'll get into that magazine again.



:eek:

[David Jamieson]

I got the Star wars Trilogy for xmas last year and it was sweet.

1 complaint about it only though and that was the documentary.

Not the actual content of the making stuff, just the general message of "poor george lucas, he was so hard done by" that stunk up the documentary on the extras dvd.

the guy is SICK rich from all of it, got to do what he wanted, has total ownage of anything with the SW brand on it and forwarded the movie making industry by light years with his ideas on how to innovate the processes. It was dissapointing to come to understand that the doc makers were just ass sucking and george let them.

Last summer I was involved in a feature flick that Ron Howard was directing and even he had tremendous respect for the processes that George used. I remeber him saying they should've been filming in full digital (a Lucas thing) to save time and to make the whole process faster. Now that's praise from on high if ya ask me.

having said that, I hate Jar Jar, I can't stand ewoks, but the rest is interesting to be sure. I also clicked when I found out that George consulted with Joseph Campbell a lot when he was formulating the story. Now that's a guy who knows who to ask for the sh.it! George asking Joe that is.

[MasterKiller]

Don't believe the hype.
All the Campbellian references and pyschological drama in ESB and ROTJ come from Lawrence Kasdan.

Lucas wanted ESB to be like "The Searchers," so he originally hired the screen writer of that movie, Leigh Brackett. Her script sucked, so he gave it to Kasdan and he composed a masterpiece. If you read the script for ESB, it follows the movie to the letter. The script is so tight that there are hardly any cut scenes or improvisations. Of course, the famous change is Harrison Ford's response to Leia when she says "I love you" just before he frozen in carbonite. But Harrison also had came up with the famous line from Indiana Jones: "It's not the years. It's the milage" or something like that. So, you have to give credit where credit is due.

Kasdan devleoped Yoda and all the Zen-esque affectations of the Force. If you read the original script of Star Wars, the Force was THE NARRATOR of the story. Nothing like Kasdan shaped it later.

Now, step forward 25 years. Lucas wrote TPM and AOTC himself. Those original scripts are like 250 pages each, with cut scenes and revisions galore. That's why the movies are sort of so-so because they were pieced together in the editing room.

My point is that the Star Wars movies are collaborations. Lucas gets all the credit, but he has an entire studio of people developing stuff and he just picks and chooses what he wants, then fits into his story outlines.

[GeneChing]

Lucas originally envisioned a great wookie battle for the finale, but then said he couldn't afford it :confused:

As fot the Star Wars Xmas special, here ya go (http://www.stomptokyo.com/movies/star-wars-holiday-special.html#gallery). Man, that brings back memories. I remeber seeing it the first and only time, all excited because the original Star Wars, well, that was my generation. So there was this huge buzz about the special, then it was aired and every Star Wars fan was like WTF? It was so horribly bad - words cannot even describe it. If you ***** about Jar Jar, you ain't seen nothing like the Xmas special.

[MasterKiller]

Lucas originally envisioned a great wookie battle for the finale, but then said he couldn't afford it :confused: He could afford it. The problem was that Chewbacca was too technically savvy. In order to complete the theme Kasadan had envisioned, the ending needed a completely primative society that defeats the evil mechanized Empire. So, they changed smart wookies around a little and came up with Ewoks. Again, that was a Kasdan influence.

The cute-and-furry aspect was actually Richard Marquand's idea. Steven Speilberg was originally going to direct ROTJ but couldn't because Lucas works outside the studio union system of which Speilberg was a member. So, Marquand was tapped to take over. If not for an SAG card....things might have been different.

[Jhapa]

bump for a great post. :D

[The Willow Sword]

I guess it was inevitable considering the subject material. From Gay'esque showing off of everyones chest to Starwars. :D I love it. I guess my last Serious post to GT ended things pretty much with this thread.

You know i was going to post a vid of me doing a mantis form but i need to change the direction somewhat of the form so that you can actually see me executing the moves. I have a digi cam that can do mpeg shorts,,,,soon i will get it cleaned up for the camera and then post it.
then you guys can make fun of me and say how my mantis form that i learned pre-sd looks like sd :D

I really wish to get back to the community here in a good way and not have to justify or explain the Sd thing anymore. it would be nice ya know.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I really wish to get back to the community here in a good way and not have to justify or explain the Sd thing anymore. it would be nice ya know.

Aside that your story is part of KFO/SD lore, I don't think that would be a problem. I think that people judge you independantly of your style, or former style, if you post on topics other than SD and discuss techniques and application rather than politics, history and lineage.

Have you started training, formally, in another art since you left SD?

[The Willow Sword]

I have gone back to my original Teacher and training before SD. I am distantly connected in to Ng Family system (6 harmomy method boxing) Although,,all i have from that system is the Mantis form that i was taught. SO i just do that and on occasion i will do some circle walking and palm changes. But i have since spoken with my old teacher and he has always thought of me as his student so i was never "out" of his good graces.

The problem is that he is in Tennessee and if i want to get more teaching i need to take a road trip soon,,however another one of Dr Ng's Disciples that i know makes buisness trips to texas on occasion and we have tenatively set a meeting for training and such.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

Your obviously different than me. I really need the motivation of having a teacher and class to push me in my training. I wouldn't do well with occasional visits and road trips. A "fight club" would be a nice compromise too.

MK, in his subtle and diplomatic way is correct though. Ignore the SD threads. I'll post in them b/c it's the style I train, but you can always distance yourself.

[Golden Tiger]

I guess my last Serious post to GT ended things pretty much with this thread.

It was serious? :D


I am not into star wars or hairy nipples so I haven't been posting. But now if you would like to talk about Hsing I sword....dayum. A very nice form indeed.

[Jhapa]

It was serious? :D

I am not into star wars or hairy nipples so I haven't been posting. But now if you would like to talk about Hsing I sword....dayum. A very nice form indeed.

what's wrong with hairy nipples... :D

[The Willow Sword]

Nope ,,not gonna change my screen name. I will always be The Willow Sword here.

As far as the b!tching goes? Hey we all gotta b!tch some time ;)

GT. :rolleyes:

JP: Yeah its tough when your teacher lives far away. i have contemplated moving back to my home state of Kenfunky so that i could be closer to him and a few others. But i am still chewing that fat(been chewing it for a long time actually).

When i get my Sh!t together with this vid i want to do i will post it. i dont like looking at myself doing a form. i hate it in fact. But i have been inspired to do it because of a mantis demo i saw in the northern Mantis forum here. and the site where the vid was posted on looks like i am able to post it there for people to see.

anyway,,off to the gym and to walmart (my new hangouts :p )

Peace,,TWS

[wdl]

I am distantly connected in to Ng Family system (6 harmomy method boxing)

Ng family out of Kentucky?

-Will

[The Willow Sword]

Yup that be the one. why?

[wdl]

Yup that be the one. why?

Ironic you should mention that on an SD thread considering the past history.

Personally, I think it's funny.

-Will

[DragonflyDaoist]

What history is that, wdl? I haven't heard of the Kentucky Ng family.

[wdl]

Golden_Tiger would probably be able to explain that one better. There was a fight at one of the Lexington Tournaments years ago between the Ng family guys and the SD guys. I've heard different versions of the same story from both sides. But you can pretty much guess the typical story from either side. The SD side: "The Ng family guys came to our tournament talking crap and it got out of hand" and the Ng Family side: "We went to their tournament respectfully and they started crap". I don't believe the Ng family guys were competing, I think they were in the stands. I know Bill Leanord got hurt, something broken, and still fought well while he was hurt. That's really all I know about it. From what I understand it's forgotten history and most everyone wants to keep it that way. What's known is that something went wrong and everything got out of control.


-Will

[BM2]

Thankfully, that thread was deleted. :)

[wdl]

Thankfully, that thread was deleted. :)

Amen.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

What history is that, wdl? I haven't heard of the Kentucky Ng family.

History??? What history??? :cool:

[The Willow Sword]

I have heard this story for years and i know both sides of it.

and yes that "thread" had the Ng side of things mentioned by someone who was actually there. this thread may be in the archives but i wouldnt really drudge these things back up.

All i will say from my end is that before i joined SD i was being taught by a disciple of the Ng family school(he is a good friend and still is) my teacher also studied and is a good friend of the instructor who was at that famous tournament that everyone labels Ng vs SD.

i have mentioned this before in past threads but when i was at SD and i was asked who i studied with befire and i dropped those names,,people got all bent out of shape and thought i was some sort of spy come to steal thier forms and cause trouble(how ironic though,stealing forms and causing trouble),,sigh oh well i quickly dispelled all that bullsh!t because at the time i had no clue that there was any rivalry between SD and the Ng school. wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky :p


Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

It was an enlightening thread in that one of the NG students who wasn't there started talking up their side and even claimed to have a tape of the fight. (He was lying). What was interesting was that the actual participant of the fight posted about his version of events and I thought he conducted himself with respect and integrity.

Other than what I've read here, I have no knowledge of the NG v SD history. It's ancient history as far as I'm concerned.

[wdl]

wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky :p


No you don't. You wouldn't have learned that, "sweet jump front kick" as you put it from Fei Foo. :p


-Will

[Golden Tiger]

All i will say from my end is that before i joined SD i was being taught by a disciple of the Ng family school(he is a good friend and still is) my teacher also studied and is a good friend of the instructor who was at that famous tournament that everyone labels Ng vs SD.

i have mentioned this before in past threads but when i was at SD and i was asked who i studied with befire and i dropped those names,,people got all bent out of shape and thought i was some sort of spy come to steal thier forms and cause trouble(how ironic though,stealing forms and causing trouble),,sigh oh well i quickly dispelled all that bullsh!t because at the time i had no clue that there was any rivalry between SD and the Ng school. wished i had just said " oh my god ya caught me,,im so ashamed,,time to go back to kentucky



I am beginning to believe that Willow is nothing more than a satire. He always seems to pull another shocking rabbit out of the hat when ever things die down.

What puzzles me is the part about him dropping names and the people getting bent out of shape. I seriously doubt if anyone in Texas (where he said he took SD) was around or can even remember the dispute and if so, it would have to be Joe.

Yep, it just keep getting fishier and fishier.........

[DragonflyDaoist]

So, basically, martial artists fought for honor. Then I'm proud. :) Anyway, I've heard similar tales of events at other locations. I won't mention details. But we should all stop acting embarrassed or angry about such occurrences. This sort of thing has happened for a LONG time, and is the reason we martial artists enjoy such passion about what we do, whether we are Shaolin-Do, Northern Mantis, "modern" Shaolin, or whatever. So, on to more enlightening subject matter.

[wdl]

This sort of thing has happened for a LONG time, and is the reason we martial artists enjoy such passion about what we do, whether we are Shaolin-Do, Northern Mantis, "modern" Shaolin, or whatever. So, on to more enlightening subject matter.

Exactly.


-Will

[Judge Pen]

What happened to the thread "Is Shaolin for real"?

[DragonflyDaoist]

:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's right. "Modern" Shaolin. I say that because I can't personally say with confidence that the stuff being taught by the monks in NYC, Houston, and other cities is any older than the last destruction of the temple at Song Shan. Just like no one can say with absolute certainty that SD wasn't brought out of the temple at Fukien. (To be fair, I know that not ALL of SD came from Fukien.) So, if we SD folks have to listen to the doubts of non-SD people here just so we can associate with each other on this board, non-SD people will simply have to realize that other systems (even "well-respected" ones) may not be everything they are thought to be.

Understand, I'm not picking a fight, or asserting the validity of SD, or anything like that. I'm really just being fair to all parties.

Before someone starts down the anti-SD road again, let me say that I don't care if SD history is debatable. I don't care if GM Sin gained a little weight back in the 80's and followed an Arnold program to get back in shape. I don't care if our sets are different from other gong fu systems. All that is BS to me. What matters to me is that the techiques and philosophies I've come to understand work for me and work for others. I also find the comraderie of my fellow students and my Master to be invaluable. My entire SD experience has been fun, and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't get all worked up over the intra- and inter-school/system petty politics. I gave my Master my money so that I could train and learn, and I have gotten more than my money's worth. Now, if some of you guys want to get caught up in all the "my uncle did your mom last night" BS, go ahead. But that sort of thing will only detract from your life experience.

At any rate, I wish you all the best, whether you are friend or enemy of SD. I hope your pursuits are fruitful, and that you find and enjoy what you want.

[The Willow Sword]

What puzzles me is the part about him dropping names and the people getting bent out of shape. I seriously doubt if anyone in Texas (where he said he took SD) was around or can even remember the dispute and if so, it would have to be Joe.

Yep, it just keep getting fishier and fishier.........


I have ALWAYS been Honest here on these forums. People can vouch for that. I have made my challenges here and i have stepped up to them,,wether i got my ass kicked or not is not the issue.
i have Always shared my Knowledge here on the forums honestly and i have lied about NOTHING.

Here was the deal as it went down:

Early on in my Sd days i was asked by a student there(who was actually a friend of my mothers{they went to school together for occupational therapy}) who it was that i studied from before. I told him that i was taught by a disciple of the Ng family system who in turn studied with one of thier main instructors at the time "John Dufresne". After that this student at SD decided to go and tell "Joe" about it and then joe confronted me in the back alley of the old school location as i was training and told me something to the extent of " uhh jason we have a serious problem,,,he then proceeded to tell me in general about the rivalry between sd and the Ng school and john dufresne,,and that he had also called grandmaster sin on this matter as well,,and i was directly confronted by joe as to wether or not i was some sort of "spy" come to make trouble or "steal" thier forms.

well i can tell you i had a big question mark on my face from the get go and was like "HUH"? well to make a long story short i quickly dispelled the bullsh!t and told joe that like my previous teacher that all i was interested in was learning forms and training and that i tried as best as i could to keep myself away from the petty Politics between schools.
Joe was convinced and life went on. I DID, however Immediately call up my previous teacher and told him what the deal was and he laughed and proceeded to tell me the whole story about the Ng Sd BS from way back.

So is this fishy now GT,,am i still satire to you? like i even give a rats fuk what you think anyway. but as far as my integrity is concerned it is solid here which is alot more than i can say for some in your organization based on what a bunch of us already know and who have experienced first hand.



Peace,,,TWS

[lxtruong]

blah blah blah, I don't care about school rivalry or any of that BS. Waste of time.

On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome.

[Jhapa]

well at least he had the common courtesy to discuss it in the back alley, not in front of other students/instructors. One thing that still bugs me is that the SD school i go to, seems to put other schools down.

[MonkeySlap Too]

"On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome."

How would you know? I've seen SD Xing-yi. It's not.

[serene_dragon]

On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome.

I attended the seminar, yes it is awesome. The tape is nothing compared to the seminar itself.

[serene_dragon]

Willow,

You live in KY and train with Ng people now. Do you know either of the Pickens brothers?

[The Willow Sword]

I still live here in Texas. I have never met the Pickens brothers,,but i know of them and who they are.

AT some point i will be making a road trip to the land of Kenfunky and who knows what may come of that adventure. for now i have to stick to my resources here in teehas.
Peace,,TWS

[DragonflyDaoist]

Since Sin has modified the system, adding new forms, allowing the short forms to "evolve" (as GT says), technically, you guys are doing "modern" Shaolin-Do anyway.

OK, everyone. In an effort to avoid offending the sensitive, I propose that we use only meaningless designations to discuss individual fighting systems. SD could be E82309824r5, Shorinryu could be oiuwer878024r5, etc. Would anyone like to second the motion? ;)

[DragonflyDaoist]

"On another note, I saw the video for the Hsing Ie sword, and it's pretty awesome."

How would you know? I've seen SD Xing-yi. It's not.

WARNING: THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENTATIVE STATEMENT ;)

MonkeySlap, how is SD's Xing Yi different from others? I'm a big fan of the internal arts, and I'm curious about the differences between the system I study and others out there.

[Brad]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

[DragonflyDaoist]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

That's interesting.

I was never really interested in Xing Yi until I did a little reading on it. I downloaded the James McNeil 5 Elements video to check it out a little further. Although this vid leaves much to be desired, I did develop further appreciation for the art. How does the McNeil stuff compare to the SD teachings? I've lost all my SD vids, and I can't remember enough for a comparison.

[Brad]

I've never seen any of McNiels stuff... haven't seen SD Xingyi other than that one video I used to have either, so I can't really comment. One of my sifu's main teachers was Li Tian Ji, so I can scan some drawings from the book if I ever get my scanner working :P I've done a little bit of xingyi quan, but I'm mostly a chang quan/ taiji quan guy :)

[Brad]

Have you checked out http://www.emptyflower.com yet?

[Golden Tiger]

So is this fishy now GT,,am i still satire to you?



Yes........... :D

[Judge Pen]

The main difference in the make up of the form itself that I saw was that there were some extra movements added in like some stationary chain punches at the end of a beng quan and extra little flowery movements with the body. I don't have the vid anymore and it was quite awhile ago, but that's what stands out most from my memory. Took a few viewings, but it turned out to be close in sequence to the linking form I've seen in Li Tian Ji's Skill of Xingyi Quan book (based on Hebei style, I think?).

Some SD schools perform their forms a little more flowery than others. The "chain punches" are a Water/wood combination (the way I was taught). Brad, if I ever get back up to Columbus, I'd be happy to show you the form as it was taught to me so you can compare it to the vid of Master Reid. There are differences, but nothing earth shattering. I was taught to put a little more of my body (legs/hips and back) into the fists.

DFD, MS2 has a bit more contact with some west coast SD (excuse me, CSC) practitioners, but I don't know if his experience with SD's Hsing-I goes beyond the video in question.

[DragonflyDaoist]

Have you checked out http://www.emptyflower.com yet?

Yes, I've been reading what he has there. It's a very well-designed site. I like what he has done with it. Good material there, too.

[Golden Tiger]

Nothing really to say..... I just wanted to be the 1000th post :D

[DragonflyDaoist]

GT and JP:

I've been practicing the knee and foot shoots, as per your suggestions. I'm getting better, faster than I expected. You guys rock! Thanks.

[BM2]

Nothing really to say..... I just wanted to be the 1000th post :D

AAAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wanted to be the 1,000 :p

So after reading over 1,000 posts, the elusive,diffenitive answer remains unanswered. How do you difine real? Are the strikes real? Do you improve your cardio and flexibility? Is what you learn have applications?
I give it a yes, no and may be. Not unlike any other martial art. Not all TKD, JMA, OMA and CMA schools are the same even in the same town. SD is no different and that really shouldn't be a surprise. Watch some classes and try a few. If it is not what you are looking for, fine. Many enjoy it and others have not. Not any different than other styles.
Just guessing but I would suppose that each school thinks that they are one of the better ones and the others suck. ;)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

[Judge Pen]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

Well not having had the opportunity to compare it to other's Xing-yi I couldn't say whether or not it was good Xing-Yi or even real Xing-Yi. I can say that the 5 elements and 12 animal "techniques" that are taught are effective and applicable. I can tell you how the techniques flow well into one another and how I appreciate the simpliefied techniques and ease of movement and power generation that each technique presents. I can tell you that I use the 5 elements in my sparring more than any other techniques that are taught in SD. I just can't tell you if what I'm doing is real "Xing-Yi" compared to others.

Whatever they are, the techniques are real. And they are good.

[Golden Tiger]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

According to who? You? That is hardly definitive proof. What tickles me about a few of you is that from a few classes or a few clips, you seem to have all the answers concerning SD. Good or bad, at least we are out there.

What I want to know is where are some examples of the supreme arts forms that you study. You seem quick to pass judgement on SD, how about showing what YOU have?

[wdl]

Again, if you are doing SD Xing-yi, you aren't 'doing' Xing-yi. How would you know if it was any good?

As Dragonfly asked, what makes it not Xing-Yi? Please tell me why SD Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi and every other style of Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi. I do not have any Xing-Yi. Please, I'd like to know the difference.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I try not to challenge anyone's credentials. I'm certainly not challenging MonkeySlap's credentials. MonkeySlap is a well-repected member here. He is a published author and an all around-bad a$$ from what I can gather. I know he has crossed hands with SD people before. I don't know his Xing-Yi background nor do I know the extent of his experience with SD's Xing-yi.

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?

[Golden Tiger]

Out where? At Taiji Legacy? At AAU Nationals? Where exactly is SD "out"?

And MonkeySlap is the last guy you should challenge on credentials.


There seems to be a lot of clips of our material floating around so that is what I mean by out there. Everyone seems to be able to slam what we do because of one or two examples so I am simpley asking to see what I am being judged against.

And if MS is going to say what is and what isn't then he is the FIRST to need to prove his credentials. But then again, you spoke up for him.....

[sean_stonehart]

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?

JP... at one of your future visits down, I'll get you over to to see Allen Pittman. He's regarded by more than a few people as really good. He's here in town.

[Judge Pen]

JP... at one of your future visits down, I'll get you over to to see Allen Pittman. He's regarded by more than a few people as really good. He's here in town.

That would be excellent. Any time I can remove ignorance for comparision's sake, I think that is a good thing.

[Fu-Pow]

Question: Where would I go to see real Xing-yi? Who is the best in the business that teaches 12 animals?


Post #1008....we finally get somewhere. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Whatever Fu Pow. I always make a point to visit as many different kung fu schools as I can (especially when I travel). It's about time that you noticed. :D

[DragonflyDaoist]

I would like to know what MonkeySlap has written. I'm always on the lookout for quality martial reading material. Of course, if you want to maintain anonymity here, MS, I can understand that.

[brothernumber9]

"Please tell me why SD Xing-Yi is (not) Xing-Yi and every other style of Xing-Yi is Xing-Yi"

You almost said it yourself. SD Xing-Yi is a form. Other styles of Xing Yi are not just a form, they are systems with their own theory and method of mechanics that require building blocks from the ground up. i.e. fundamental stances, fundamental walking and changing footwork patterns, and primary theories and concepts of Xing Yi attack and defense, etc. Far more than a single form without the building blocks would reveal over a few months or even years.

These theories and methods would most assuredly conflict with some of the theories, methods, and mechanics implied to some of the other "styles" SD teaches. That is one of the crux(s) of most arguments against SD teachings of combining, or attempting to, of different styles that are unique systems unto themselves. Some of these "styles" compliment or mesh well with others. A lot of them don't.

[Judge Pen]

The thing is, it's not just a form in SD. Certainly it's an introduction to the style. It is taught over a 2 to 3 year period. During that time, it's all you learn with the exception of 3 straight sword sets, and along with the basics, you are tought a ton of meditation and chi kung. My teacher went into fundamentals and building blocks during my training which included stepping drills and resistance training.

Since I can't compare it to other Xing-yi, I don't know what, if anything was left out or was lacking. I can say that I haven't mastered the techniques. I'm still working on that. I'm charged with drilling it on my own and improving once my teacher judged that I had the basics down.

Again, I don't know if it's real Xing-yi, but it's real something and was taught with it's own theories, drills, and applications. The meditation, chi gong, and isometric training was essential to understanding and applying what we were taught. I'd like to compare it by visiting a schools and observing their training.

Maybe some people breeze through it without the drills and training. We don't. I'm sure from discussing the topic with GT that they don't in Lexington either.

[Golden Tiger]

SD Xing-Yi is a form

I would have to disagree with that although I concede your statement about conflicting styles and the "current" lack of building from the ground up.

"SD" Hsing Ie contains forms for the 5 roads or fists (Chopping, Banging, Stopping, Cannon, Crossing). It has a linkage form that combines these fists. There are 11 forms (for 12 animals Eagle/Bear are one) for the animals. There is a 2 man set using the animals and roads. There is a practice set (Shattering Hand) and now, there is a sword form that goes with it.

So, totaled the so called SD Hsing I form actually consists of 20 forms plus the Shattering hand techniques.

Along with all this, stances, theory, movements and meditation are taught.

This is concentrated on during the 3 year min. period from 2nd to 3rd Black.

[brothernumber9]

At face, what you stated seems quite logical and perhaps even proper. But deeper brings up other arguments. For example, within the SD curriculum where did the Xing Yi material originate. The logical immediate answer is Sin The. This then brings up the question of amongst the dozens of other systems SD promotes, and the testimony from pugilists of students that solely study those individual systems on how long it takes to reach a level of proficiency, how proper is the Xing Yi or any system SD teaches in relation to instruction from teachers of just those disciplines separately.

In other words, how much could Sin The have absorbed properly within the time frame of his life in comparison to how many systems SD teaches and how long it takes by others testimony and examples of reachng proficiency of those disciplines.

learning one or a few discipline alone in a lifetime much less dozens of disciplines, some of which contrast too much to each other.

Lets just say someone is 70yrs old and they teach 20 different styles. Take away five years for infancy. That equates to just a little over 3yrs per system if the training were non stop. Is that enough to properly learn each system?

[Golden Tiger]

within the SD curriculum where did the Xing Yi material originate.
That, I am not 100% sure about so I will not attempt to answer because slip ups here are not easily dealt with.

how proper is the Xing Yi or any system SD teaches in relation to instruction from teachers of just those disciplines separately

But it can also be asked of those who teach only a specific system. How proper is what they teach? What makes one so much better than the other? If one is able to grasp the essence of a system and gain in knowledge and ability, doesn't if make it benificial? I have gone to Emptyflower which seems to be the end all for Hsing I. Most of the things I have read on there are not new to me. Different terms but mainly the same concepts. So, what I got must be somewhat close to what everyone else got.

how much could Sin The have absorbed properly within the time frame of his life in comparison to how many systems SD teaches and how long it takes by others testimony and examples of reachng proficiency of those disciplines.

I can't answer that. All I know is that when he taught something out, it always consisted of extensive notes, background and basics that made it seem to work. With each system (Tai Chi, Pa Kua and Hsing I) I learned a new way of doing things. I took from each of them the essence of the system. Right or now, tradition or made up on the spot, it gave me something I didn't have before I learned it.

[wdl]

Lets just say someone is 70yrs old and they teach 20 different styles. Take away five years for infancy. That equates to just a little over 3yrs per system if the training were non stop. Is that enough to properly learn each system?

You make a good point brother. I think part of this is the difference in how the mindsets from Chinese arts that have come out of Indonesia and arts that have come out of China in the past 100 years have differed. In alot of Indonesia based systems learning a ton of styles is completely acceptable. It's like there's a large split in the thinking between the two branches.

I think your mostly right, with the exception of a few gifted instructors here and there.

-Will

[brothernumber9]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not implying that Sin The made up anything at all. I'm assuming he did learn Xing Yi. I'm only presenting possible arguments towards the depth of the understanding of the aspects implicit with learning Xing Yi to a level of proficiency that would justify the teaching as more than just a form.

A common point of view from some outside of SD is that SD is just a huge collection of forms and not much else. A bunch of emply shells if you will. After the posts of some SD students here less some former SD students, they are all adamant that is not the case.

There's a bunch of styles with dozens of forms, so having a bunch of forms and after aquiring fundamental skills, learning a few forms a year is par for the course. The difference in regards to SD (or so I'm assuming) would be that systems of themselves reinforce the learning with each form, refining and building on the specific theories, concepts, mechanics, and power generation that define the system.

By combining so many different styles, some of which contradict each other in some of the aspects above, and some that by testimony take longer than 3yrs to get an even intermediate level of, just makes it dubious that in such a conglomerate, the actual essence of such styles could still be present through such methods of universal learning and teaching all from only one immediate source.

[Golden Tiger]

I'm only presenting possible arguments towards the depth of the understanding of the aspects implicit with learning Xing Yi to a level of proficiency that would justify the teaching as more than just a form.


I can agree with that statement also. I guess where we ( and 99% of the rest here) differ is that while you may not learn everything there is to know about (insert system here) while studying SD, you are going to get a taste of it. And in that taste, you will get the basic essence of what that particular system has to contribute to your overall skill as a martial artist. Now with that, say you learn Hsing I and just love it and thats all you ever want to do again. Then you can go out and find a dedicated Hsing I school. If not, you can wait until you are introduced to something else that you like better but with the skill (how ever slight it may be) you gained from the Hsing I.

I guess what really gets me is that some of you all have the purist mentality that if its not the way you are doing it, then it has no value. If you don't study one sytle for decades then you are not qualified to teach it. But then again, I am the same way. Its an arrogance that is engrained in everyone to some degree.

Another funny observation..... You won't trust a MA teacher without a iron clad lineage and 10 or 20 years of study just to teach you how to punch, kick and breath and yet you will let a doctor with 6 years of schooling cut, poke, prod and pretty much hold your life in their hands.......funny eh?

[The Willow Sword]

My experience with the hsing i that SD had to offer only went as far as the actual forms but no real teaching as to the "content" of those forms.
I never learned abvout 5 element principles there ( i had to go to outside sources to learn that) i only learned maybe a few real applications to the sets taught out( again i had to go to outside sources OR try to figure things out on my own and even then i did not trust that what i was trying to learn on my own was correct)

when i got out of Sd and started looking at other more "Traditional" and legitamte hsing i systems i began to see the differences and was able to make out the modifications that were done in the SD hsing i to make it look unique to itself,,which again makes me wonder as to WHERE all this material was taken from.

in retrospect and in my opinion i think it is quite easy to plaguerize forms that you see ,say like on videotapes,,and then modify them to make it look like your own. Its easy to do this because there is no real legal copywrite put down on these forms because in the past, say like mid to late 70's and even early 80's martial instruction vids were done independantly and distributed independantly.
just some food for thought here.

As for GT's above post,,it just goes to show you how ignorant certain people are when it comes to how important history and lineage IS in the TCMA realm. And as for experience in the arts go,,id rather learn from someone who studied 6 months with a legitamate school than with someone who for 20+ years teaches from a school that fabricates its history and plagerizes other systems forms.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I understand the critics' arguments well. As GT and I stated, what we learn is an introduction to the basics. Hsing-I improved my power generation with all my techniques more than anything else I have studied. If I left SD (or moved to an area where I wasn't happy with the SD instruction) I could look back and my experiences and specialize in styles that interested me the most. I would expect to get a more thorough instruction if I went that route than I got in SD. But what is taught in SD is designed to fit together in a complimentary way.

We cannot learn Tai Chi, Pa Kua or Hsing-Ie as well as a student that studies nothing but one of those styles. But we can learn them well enough to apply the fundamental principles of each to make us better. I am more sensitive to my opponent weaknesses, center of gravity, and weight distribution though the Tai Chi I am taught. My footwork and ability to out step an opponent have improved through the Pa Kua I am taught. I can hit harder with less wasted energy through the Hsing-Ie I have been taught. Does that make me as good as any person that studies nothing but Pa Kua; nothing but tai chi; nothing but Hsing Ie? No, but I can take some of each and make me better.

Now, in addition to maintaining what I was taught before, I'm learning Long Fist. I'm never going to be as good at that as say, MK, or others that practice that style exclusively. But, I am closing distance better than I did before. The ability to blend those styles is a blessing to the individual; however, it's a curse to trying to do justice to the individual styles we are taught.

Good or bad, you can describe a quality SD person as a Jack of all trades and a master of none. But to be able to blend these styles into something that compliments the individual martial artist is a mastery of its own.

[Golden Tiger]

As for GT's above post,,it just goes to show you how ignorant certain people are when it comes to how important history and lineage IS in the TCMA realm. And as for experience in the arts go,,id rather learn from someone who studied 6 months with a legitamate school than with someone who for 20+ years teaches from a school that fabricates its history and plagerizes other systems forms.



:rolleyes: ........... Thats probably why you are 0-1......Lineage and history aren't gonna save your buttocks. While you are hitting the books tracking all that down and then double checking it, you should be hitting the bag my friend.


in retrospect and in my opinion i think it is quite easy to plaguerize forms that you see ,say like on videotapes,,and then modify them to make it look like your own. Its easy to do this because there is no real legal copywrite put down on these forms because in the past, say like mid to late 70's and even early 80's martial instruction vids were done independantly and distributed independantly.

Although I have already covered this point....

1. 1977: The First VHS VCR is Introduced in the U.S.

2. Show me all these 180 ish forms we have on tape and I'll quit sweating my butt off in class...

[The Willow Sword]

But wouldnt you want to "specialize" in something? i mean you seem like how i was back in the old days where i was looking at other schools and communicating with other student and teachers of other systems and getting ideas and things from them. i mean if you are travelling and visiting other schools then i would contend that you are not really getting what you need there at sd. oh sure you are becoming a jack of all trades when it comes to forms,,but if you decided to really stick with one style and really master it and make it your own,,you could be a very reputable teacher like most in the TCMA realm.

just more food thinking.


Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

The thing is I am getting what I want from SD. A lot of that comes from the quality of instruction I'm receiving with my teachers. They are very good to me. I spar them often and I am a better fighter now then when I was more gifted athletically. Just because I compare notes with other schools doesn't mean I'm not getting what I want here. More often than not, I'm pleasantly surprised by how well my training measures up (I say "pleasantly surprised" because I get it drummed into my head from this forum that my stuff is worthless all the time, it's nice to confirm that it isn't. :) ) I'm very fortunate that I have good relationships with teachers in other cities that I train with also, but it doesn't take away from my SD training. I take what I learn from them and make it work for me (just like I do with SD).

Do I want to specialize? Maybe someday. There's no local teacher that I would want to train with other than my current teacher. If I moved somewhere else, then I would judge the instruction available more than the style.

And I could care less about becoming a reputable teacher. I only help my teacher instruct when he needs my help. I think I'm a pretty good teacher--very detail oriented (much more so then I am with myself I must confess), but I have no interest in teaching on my own. I'd much rather simply train.

[Fu-Pow]

Whatever Fu Pow. I always make a point to visit as many different kung fu schools as I can (especially when I travel). It's about time that you noticed. :D

Haha...just messing with you....I'm working on my snappy one-liners ala Masterkiller style. ;) :D

[Judge Pen]

I'm working on my snappy one-liners ala Masterkiller style. ;) :D

MK's the master of one-liner forum-fu.

[Brad]

It's not that hard to find books, etc. with 5-10 forms in them... and not all forms have to be coppied from books. Forms in book form are have been around for many many years. Also people have been teaching seminars and competiting in tournements with this stuff for a long time too. It's not too hard to gather forms through books, video, seminars, and just plain observation. He also doesn't need to know every single form he claims to teach. As new stuff becomes available to the public, the system grows. My first karate teacher was able to gather at least 100 different forms from various styles (some pretty darn rare). He kept tons of hand written notes to help him remember it all. We managed to track down part of the origins of what he taught, but there's still a lot we'll never manage to track down. The guy would still be in buisness today if he hadn't been brought down by being caught engaging in somewhat unrelated criminal activity (child molestation).

Personally, I think Sin The is going to get away with his crimes until the day he dies. Most of these crooks aren't going to get into trouble unless they do something else... like my first teacher with his actraction to underage girls, or "Iron" Kim with the tax evasion and cult. Sin The seems more common con-man than deranged sicko like some of these other guys.

[Golden Tiger]

Personally, I think Sin The is going to get away with his crimes until the day he dies.

:rolleyes: ........................

[SimonM]

Yeah, what the header says.

Come on, the SD guys and the anti-SD guys aren't going to budge from their postions and those of us who couldn't give a flying fu<k about SD would rather talk about something else. I think it's time to let it go! :eek:

[DragonflyDaoist]

I can tolerate the doubts about lineage, the comparison of the structure and performance of our forms, and most of the other BS floating around about SD. But thievery is a serious accusation, and it breaks my otherwise peaceful and patient state of being. In other words, it ****es me off.

POINT #1
What is a form? It is simply a way of conveying information and technique without the use of physical media such as videotape, audiotape, or paper. Should I be upset because others write on paper, like me?

POINT #2
I don't believe Grandmaster Sin The' would commit thievery. I have spent some time around the man, and my Master is one of GM Sin's direct students. By all accounts, he is a great person, aside from being a martial arts instructor/Master/Grandmaster. Besides that, if he were the thieving sort, his lifestyle would be evidence of that. Thieves want something for nothing. GM Sin still promotes each student personally (unless things have changed in the past few years). SD schools are scattered across the country, and, at one time, totalled 111 (I don't know how old that figure is). Take a survey of thieves, and ask them if they would work that hard. If I were a dishonest GM Sin The', I would appoint his senior students to do all the travelling and testing for him, and show up a couple of times a year at tournaments to reap the praise.

At any rate, the originator of this thread wishes to know about SD. A couple of you have just said that GM Sin stole material. List in a new thread the resources, whether they are videotape, audiotape, optical disc, books, essays, theses, cave wall markings, etc, that he stole the material from. Neither I nor those curious about SD want to see excuses for your failure to produce. Either show evidence, or don't make such accusations.

Put up or shut up.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Sorry about my delays - this is a busy year.

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese. But actually having the 'kung fu' is another matter.

I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person. (I recently missed a SD "Xing Ie" seminar in San Jose, I wanted to make a polite visit so I could speak from more experience, but I'm too busy with work.)

Please understand there is a wide range of styles that fall under the Xing Yi/Xin Yi category. There are players and schools out there that are just phenomenal, there is a lot of modern Wushu, and a lot of half-baked stuff. Even done 'externally' a lot of Xing Yi can be made to function to some degree.

THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me. I mean, there is no comparison to what I see from Wai Lun Choi's students, or Li Tai Liang's students, or Chang Tung Sheng's (who isn't parrticularly known for his Xing-yi).

My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

SD would eat a lot less crap if they didn't claim all this wild stuff that is just not correct.

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

[lxtruong]

I'm curious, do you have any links to any videos that you consider "functional" Xing-Yi? I would like to know what there is "no comparison" to....to of course try to make a comparison.

Sorry about my delays - this is a busy year.

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese. But actually having the 'kung fu' is another matter.

I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person. (I recently missed a SD "Xing Ie" seminar in San Jose, I wanted to make a polite visit so I could speak from more experience, but I'm too busy with work.)

Please understand there is a wide range of styles that fall under the Xing Yi/Xin Yi category. There are players and schools out there that are just phenomenal, there is a lot of modern Wushu, and a lot of half-baked stuff. Even done 'externally' a lot of Xing Yi can be made to function to some degree.

THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me. I mean, there is no comparison to what I see from Wai Lun Choi's students, or Li Tai Liang's students, or Chang Tung Sheng's (who isn't parrticularly known for his Xing-yi).

My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

SD would eat a lot less crap if they didn't claim all this wild stuff that is just not correct.

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Go to Emptyflower.

There is a wide range of what is considered 'authentic.' - although between schools may will disagree.

Note - good luck. It's like cutting open the human body, if you don't know what your looking for, it can all look the same in there...

[Judge Pen]

When I meet Judge Pen, we can compare notes, and I'll report back here.

Wow, don't put any pressure on me MS2. :D

[Golden Tiger]

Anybody can discuss the theories of Xing-Yi - there are a ton of books out there, especially in Chinese.

I lucked out, all my notes are written in both in the offhand event that I ever learn Chinese.....



I am responding to having watched SD "Hsing Ie" on video and once in person.

nuff said........


THAT being said, from where I'm sitting the SD Xing-Yi doesn't look very much like finctional Xing-Yi to me.

see above.....

My point has been this: If you grew up calling a duck an Eagle, and you've never seen an Eagle before, and everyone around you points to the duck and says 'yep, that's an Eagle.' - You won't know what an Eagle is.

see above.....again

[DragonflyDaoist]

As I think I mentioned before, I haven't yet studied Xing Yi. So don't look at this post as an advocacy piece.

Isn't it possible that two groups can achieve similar results via different methods? The majority here say that SD's Xing Yi is no good because it doesn't look like what the majority does. So what? Using the duck/eagle example, though each is different is appearance, each is still a bird. They don't fly in a similar manner, one is water fowl, while the other hunts from the heights. Yet, despite these differences, both are, in fact, birds.

Maybe those who judge SD Xing Yi see no apparent power in videotaped demos, or even in person. But these judges haven't been on the receiving end of an SD Xing Yi strike, either. It is possible to transfer/project energy from the fingertip without movement of the limb.

Like I said, I haven't yet learned Xing Yi, but I do understand Qi, Jing, Shen, and the rest of the package. Just because I don't see my skin glow during meditation doesn't mean the qi isn't flowing.

My point is, I don't think any of us can confidently judge another style/system/technique just by watching it.

[The Willow Sword]

My point is, I don't think any of us can confidently judge another style/system/technique just by watching it.


Actually Yes you can. and in the case with Sd and the forms taught out there you can definately and confidently judge the style as nothing more than a hybridized style of karate and kung fu with more emphasis on the karate than the kung fu.

the forms have principles and techniques,,there are reasons behind them,,there is a look and a feel to it. and those who have been in the TCMA realm for a long know when a "duck" is trying to be an "eagle" and stilll looking like a duck. plus there is a "content" to the forms as well and that resides in the individual as to wether or not he/she has "content". the old saying goes in this community "all form and no content" and why? because if all you teach is a form and only show little of its value with respect to applications,,what points(meridians) on the body it affects,,how it is really used in a combat situation,,then the form only becomes a form and nothing more

take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi. and since most CMA practitioners agree that tracing the history and lineage of that certain family style is important,,you wonder where this hsing yi from Sd came from? is it Hebei style? or a modified version of hebei? or is the modified hsing i at Sd Shanxi style? or is it I chuan style?

i know sd Hsing i,,all too well do i know it. and in my opinion it has some decent movements,,,,but never was i taught the 5 element principles or any if very little applications or techniques. oh sure it was explained a little bit about what bung chuan was for and pau chuan and so on and so forth,,but no real instruction on the system itself.
it was a 3 month course for those of us who took it when i did. it is also 2nd degree black belt material in SD,,so you would think that if it is required material that there would be alot of emphasis on the principles of 5 elements and such.
but not where i was learning it there wasnt. i had to get my meridianology and 5 element principles from outside the school just to get an idea of what the hell i was learning with hsing i.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

Willow, you were obviously taught differently then me. Couldn't that be part of the problem in judging forms by video clips alone?

[The Willow Sword]

So you were taught the fundamentals of 5 Elements and thier corresponding meridians and points on the body? and where the 5 fists come in to play with regards to those Meridian points? and the linkage? were you just told about them or did you study them in depth? and what about health maintainence during this training?were you taught the 8 vital points? what about the 16 point practice methods? or the 8 charatcer secrets? could you elaborate on these? and what about the Nei gong associtaed with hsing i? Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP. it is a whole system of itself ecompassing many principles and guidilnes for its martial practice.

if you were taught all that at your Sd school then great. however it was not taught like that at the texas school.


Peace,,TWS

[cerebus]

Well, most simply put, the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all). Yes, I've seen several clips of high-ranking SD black belts demo'ing their Hsing-I. Yes, I'm a Hsing-I practitioner myself. But no, SD Hsing-I is not Hsing-I.

So SD'ers ask which movements aren't H-I. Well it's not necessarily that ANY of the movements aren't. Meaning they could ALL be the exact same movements found in any given system of H-I. It isn't the TECHNIQUES, it's the body movement and method of doing the techniques that make it not H-I. This isn't something that can be easily explained over the internet. It really has to be SHOWN (or better yet, learned from a qualified instructor) to understand. It's basically the same thing that I saw in the video of Sin The doing a "Mantis" form. No Mantis body movement at all. Yes, he was using the Mantis claw hand position, but his body movement looked like that of a Karateka who had learned a Mantis form from a book.

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.

[spiraler]

holy shiz, 70 freakin pages of posts, whats the topic questioning? is shaolin do for real? CAN YOU NOT TELL WHAT IS REAL AND WHAT IS FAKE??!!?!?hmm... it might be real. then again......

[Golden Tiger]

I have no doubt that SD's version of what they call "Hsing-I" may be a very effective method. I'm sure it's beneficial to their health. It is undoubtedly a valid martial art in it's own way. But it really ISN'T Hsing-I.


Ok, let me see if my simple mind can sort through this.....

SD Hsing I may be very effective.

SD Hsing I is beneficial to their health.

SD Hsing I is undoubtedly a valid martial art.

But it really isn't Hsing I........ if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....it's an eagle.....ok, got it :D

[Fred Sanford]

yea pretty much, if you just have the movements without the body mechanics that actually power them, then what if anything do you really have, a few punches at best, at worst, well, we have that hsing-i video from the atlanta SD group.

I think cerebus is trying to be nice. SD looks to me to be a fairly worthless pile of doo-doo.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[The Willow Sword]

Cerebus kind of contradicted himself there abit.

in my opinion the Sd hsing i is modified to make it look like thier own unique and "lost way" refound. i mean that is the rhetoric at SD ,,this is the "True" shaolin and the "true" way that things were taught in the temple and so on and so forth. and when you quickly deduce that it is a bunch of Horsesh!t then you ask yourself well what are these forms?

well from what i have practiced with sd hsing i and then what i have practiced and have learned outside of sd,,i can say that sd hsing i is probably taken from somewhere and then "modified". thats what i mean when i use the term plagurize in the forms there. its the same with the pakua at SD in my opinion.


Peace,,TWS

[Brad]

Your duck analogy completely misses the point. Is chang quan still chang quan if I practice it with a hung gar body method? It's the same reason modern wushu nan quan usually isn't "real" southern kungfu even though that's where most of the techniques came from. I've got a mantis form in a book here, but just imitating the pictures isn't going to make what I do real mantis.

[Brad]

And this is where the arguement kind of becomes pointless on the internet. People who haven't seen a lot of real xingyi and practiced some themselves with a qualified teacher are going to have a hard time distinguishing the little details. Like this dude I was trying to help with taiji before. His posture was all f'ed up, but when I tried to correct him he just claimed he had excellent posture and didn't see any difference between himself and the rest of us... what do you do then? lol.

Also, any of us that have trained with phonies in the past no how easy it is to lie to ourselves even when we do notice something wrong. Martial arts schools create a real familly/clan atmosphere, and it's difficult to turn you back on familly.

So yes, this thread is pretty pointless and a waste of most of our time... but I'm sure plenty of us will be back here tommorrow :p It's entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, lol.

[DragonflyDaoist]

...Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP...

I'm sure JP would prefer that you not insult his intelligence. You think that you have earned some sort of prestige or position because you think you know more than others here. You think you can talk down to others, especially if they study a martial system that you had a bad experience with. What rank were you when you left SD?

...the SD Hsing-I movement/body method does NOT look like Hsing-I (at all)...
...take the Hsing yi that Sd offers. it is inherintly different in its movements when you compare it to more traditional systems of xingyi...

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy. Those arguing against SD Xing Yi just keep saying the same things. "It doesn't look like what I do, it doesn't look like what everyone else does."

I've read a good deal of anti-SD propaganda scattered across the 'Net. When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest. We are willing to consider new possibilities and ideas about our system presented by outsiders. We even acknowledge that our material isn't quite comparable to that practiced by purist schools (such as a Ba Gua school, or mantis school).

We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

Now, having said these things, I've had enough of this thread. Arguments recur, SD slammers never show a valid point, and SD always seems to emerge bruised from repeated attacks yet still as a valid martial system. If anyone feels the overwhelming need to continue debating my points, feel free to PM me. But I think even the guy who began this thread is tired of this endless drivel. I vote that we move on to more interesting topics.

Good day.

[Brad]

You're trying to argue my points from my last post, but you have presented a valid counterpoint. You haven't even said that body movement is necessary to produce the desired energy.
Yes, body movement is necesary to produce the desired energy.

When SD practitioners respond to these usually ridiculous insinuations and allegations, arguments often blossom. It is interesting to note that SD practitioners speak/write with more wisdom, and more courtesy, than the rest.
In your obviously biased opinion of course ;)

We may not be the best sparring competitors. We may not perform sets as pretty as some. We may even not have the traditionalist's deep insight into the internal systems we study. But two things are clear, and cannot be argued.
Anything can be argued :p

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.
Nothing's been proven. You're angry that people think your grandmaster is a criminal. Nothing more, nothing less. You're not better than me, and I'm not better than you.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations.
True of most martial artists and reasonalbe human beings.

A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face.

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions. That's why people laugh when some of you try to pretend your superior to "sport" schools ;)

If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.
Gene doesn't allow challenges on this board(for obvious legal reasons) but I'm sure if you pm everyone on this thread giving your personal info and offer to pay travel expenses(and maybe a little extra?) if you lose, then I'm sure you'll find someone to prove yourself to :)

[Ralphie]

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

A SD instructor in Texas was recently charged with molesting a younger female student of his. Martial arts are for fighting. People may or may not be be better off because of them. It's a dumb idea to ignore human nature.

2. Shaolin-Do practitioners, at least those who take their study seriously, will walk away from life-threatening confrontations. A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. I'm not bragging here, but stating that we do what needs to be done -- quickly and efficiently. If you doubt this, come visit me. We will sign waivers and have a go.

They may or may not walk away. Sport fighting teaches skill. Punching the air does not. I bet you'd have no idea how to break someone's leg or arm in 5 seconds, as I suspect you've never done it. You're living in a fantasy land, and essentially are full of ****.

[MasterKiller]

A lot of people laugh at the comment that GM Sin has allowed to be posted on the SDA site: 'I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, 'Art of survival, not of sport.' They laugh because they don't understand, or even take the time to understand, what is taught in the good SD schools. We aren't taught to dance around and jab at the opponent's face. If I am approached with malicious intent, I'm going to break a leg and an arm within 5 seconds. Ok. You're taught instant death dealing methods until it's time for the annual Sin The Karate Tournament, at which point your masters fight in the deadly style known as Point Karate. Am I getting this right?

I've seen that video of the master's sparring. I must admit I didn't see any body bags.

Here is something to ease your irritation.

[wdl]

Your teacher holds competitions with sparring rules more restrictive than a lot of sport competitions.

In what way other than full contact?

-Will

[cerebus]

Well, of course, Golden Tiger misunderstood (or chose to misunderstand) my last post. Interestingly, so did TWS. I thought I put it pretty simply, but maybe not. Let's see if I can simplify a bit further.

1) Just because it's not H-I doesn't mean it isn't effective. Many arts are not H-I, but are still effective.

2) Just because it's not H-I doesn't mean it's not a valid art in it's own way. Many arts are not H-I, but that doesn't mean they are not valid.

However,
3) Just because it uses gross physical movements that are similar to those used in H-I doesn't make it H-I. Karate has movements similar to all the 5 elements of Hsing-I, but they still look like karate when they're being done. The so-called "Hsing-I" done by SD looks like a karateka trying to imitate Hsing-I.

In Hsing-I, the gross physical movements (techniques) are simply the framework through which the specific method of body movement in H-I (the ESSENCE of Hsing-I) is expressed.

I don't know if I can simplify it any further for you than that.

[Brad]

Their sparring in competition is basically karate continuous point sparring (like Master Killer said). Much more restrictive than San Shou/San Da, Muay Thai, Kuoshu San Shou, the various "NHB" groups, western kickboxing, etc. So yeah, more restrictive than the many full contact venues out there. BTW, I should have said "your grandmaster" instead of "your teacher" in my original statement. I've got no idea who this guys actual teacher is.

Also, if anyone wants to insult me personally, or has something else personal to say to me please pm or email me because I'm not going to be able to be on here every single day answering posts directed specifically at me :) I doubt it will be too much of a problem, but just thought I'd give a heads up :p

[BM2]

Here is something to ease your irritation.

MK, I'd doubt that it would make you go away! ;) joking

[wdl]

Their sparring in competition is basically karate continuous point sparring (like Master Killer said). Much more restrictive than San Shou/San Da, Muay Thai, Kuoshu San Shou, the various "NHB" groups, western kickboxing, etc. So yeah, more restrictive than the many full contact venues out there.

First of all, most SD tournaments have point and non-stop divisions. In both divisions groil, down the spine and across the kidneys is legal, light contact to the back of the head. I've seen elbows used and called as points because it was considered effective technique, although there was almost no contact, otherwise he'd have been DQ'd. So long as your not kicking them in the knees, joint locking or biting them it's probably legal. Granted your not going to get points for quad and calf shots. The non-stop divisions can get pretty rough and it's very aggressive. While the full contact element isn't there, it's not point sparring either.

There are very few people in SD that train to fight full contact semi-amatuer type events. Most people are families, mothers and fathers with kids. It's just not that element so the point sparring format works well for people that aren't looking to get in over their head. However, the "restrictive" rules statement isn't really fair. I know alot of San Da events, etc that don't allow contact to areas we do.


-Will

[The Willow Sword]

I'm sure JP would prefer that you not insult his intelligence. You think that you have earned some sort of prestige or position because you think you know more than others here. You think you can talk down to others, especially if they study a martial system that you had a bad experience with. What rank were you when you left SD?


First of all i am not insulting Jp's intelligence. i am asking him if he knows about these training methods specific to Hsing i and that if he has been taught these things at Sd then great,,,,he has yet to reply to my questions anyway so i think it is a little presumptious on your part Dragonflydaoist to speak for him. Plus my questions to JP which he may or may not know the answers to are not to talk down to him but rather to let him know that there is more to that system than just what forms are taught.

I have earned no prestige here on the forums and i certainly do not know more than most here who practice and study in a legitamate and valid CMA. Thank the stars that i do know what i know. But as for really revealing to you what it is that i know,,well,,quite frankly its none of your buisness.

you know you remind me a little bit of myself when i was a dedicated and loyal SD follower. defending the school here on the forums,,naive to the reality that most of us here are privy to.
and for your information i spent nearly 8 years at sd and attained 2nd degree black belt ranking there. so if anyone here knows about SD and what it teaches(and what it does not), aside from the others here who are still with SD, I DO.

what rank are you dragonflydaoist?




Peace,,TWS.

[Jhapa]

1. Shaolin-Do obviously produces better people. It has been proven here.

A SD instructor in Texas was recently charged with molesting a younger female student of his. Martial arts are for fighting. People may or may not be be better off because of them. It's a dumb idea to ignore human nature.

i was told he was kicked out of the system by Master Joe way before he was charged. they were actually in some sort of a relationship, dating,... he told the girls parents regarding there relationship.

[The Willow Sword]

they were actually in some sort of a relationship, dating,... he told the girls parents regarding there relationship


Well that was smart. a 27 year old man telling a 15 year old girls parents that they are in a relationship :rolleyes: Now he got posted on the local news here with warrents for his arrest,,fuked his carreer at SD,,and is now on his way back to the phillipines or wherever.

Joe sure does know how to choose em dont he? ;)


hehe sorry that was a below the belt shot. excuse me please :o



Peace,,TWS

[themeecer]

Well that was smart. a 27 year old man telling a 15 year old girls parents that they are in a relationship :rolleyes: Now he got posted on the local news here with warrents for his arrest,,fuked his carreer at SD,,and is now on his way back to the phillipines or wherever.

Joe sure does know how to choose em dont he? ;)


hehe sorry that was a below the belt shot. excuse me please :o

He sure does .. he chose you at one time. :p There's a below the belt shot right back at ya.

[The Willow Sword]

He sure does .. he chose you at one time. There's a below the belt shot right back at ya

well........at least i am not a pederast. oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference. ;)


Peace,,TWS

[lxtruong]

So yes, this thread is pretty pointless and a waste of most of our time... but I'm sure plenty of us will be back here tommorrow :p It's entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way, lol.

The most insightful thing said on this thread so far. It's excruiatingly obivous that no one here is going to change anyone else's mind. Yet we can't look away, sorta like a train wreck that no one can look away from.

[BM2]

oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference. ;)


TWS

:eek:

Sorrrry, that was below the belt :D

[wdl]

The most insightful thing said on this thread so far. It's excruiatingly obivous that no one here is going to change anyone else's mind. Yet we can't look away, sorta like a train wreck that no one can look away from.

Long my man, you speak the truth.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

First off...you guys need to get out at enjoy the weekend a little more. Second, howdy Ralphie, I was wondering where you were lurking.

Now, on to the show......

well........at least i am not a pederast. oh and i wasnt "chosen" for anything there,,i was "used". there is a difference.

If you are going to use big words Willow, use them right. A pederast is a man/boy thing(Even I had to look it up). As far as I know, the incident you so kindly are refering to was man/girl. You must have overheard it at the last NAMBLA meeting or something..anyhooo.......

As for the deadly sparring matches. As someone pointed out, most of the competitors are not in it for blood. Like myself, they are people that have a family to support and not hard core fighters. Plus, the rules on contact have been restricted more and more over the years because a lot of people just didn't want to risk a payday for a trophy. Thats just the way some silly people are. They like the competition and thats about it.

As for this thread being useless, I disagree. Because of it, I have got to know quiet a few of you, get to have an outlet for the daily frustrations and get to make fun of people like TWS. IMO, this thread rocks!!!! :D

[The Willow Sword]

Hey thanks for the correction GT " At least i am not a Pedophile". there all better now.

as for you making fun of me,,,hey man keep it up,,it still doesnt change things really. refer back to post #845 page 57 to reread what i mean GT. :cool:


anyway,,,back to work.......ta taaa kids it has been fun re-living this whole nightmare. and yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.

hahaha Gene you must be rolling your eyes and clenching your stress ball :D



Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Hey thanks for the correction GT

No problem, just doing my job.


as for you making fun of me,,,hey man keep it up,,it still doesnt change things really. refer back to post #845 page 57 to reread what i mean GT.

Wish you had posted a like. But I did what you requested..... :rolleyes:


yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.


All in good fun...

Hey JP, did you get that rope dart file?

[Starchaser107]

... and yet again we have all proven that in these forums the SD threads are the MOST POPULAR,,just look at the # of posts and the # of views by people.


Yet another reminder that quantity does not always coincide with quality. :cool:

[Judge Pen]

So you were taught the fundamentals of 5 Elements and thier corresponding meridians and points on the body? and where the 5 fists come in to play with regards to those Meridian points? and the linkage? were you just told about them or did you study them in depth? and what about health maintainence during this training?were you taught the 8 vital points? what about the 16 point practice methods? or the 8 charatcer secrets? could you elaborate on these? and what about the Nei gong associtaed with hsing i? Hsing i is not just some fly by night system of boxing JP. it is a whole system of itself ecompassing many principles and guidilnes for its martial practice.

if you were taught all that at your Sd school then great. however it was not taught like that at the texas school.


Well, I thought we were talking about judging one's body mechanics and comparing them to anothers based on the observation of the form. My point was that some SD schools teach body mechanics better than others. I didn't know there would be math on this quiz.

As far as the meridian points and the pathways of chi between those points (and the correspoonding effect they have on the internal organs) yes, it was discussed. I was not taught, as a part of the Hsing-Ie, per se, 16 point practice method or the 8 vital points. If so, it was not identified as such, but I often discover that what I was taught differs often in terminology but less in practice. I do find that somewhat lacking in SD instruction. It is, somewhat, a fault of mine too since I don't ask questions about the terminology as much as it's application.

I've said it here, and I'll say it again. I was taught good hsing-Ie body mechanics. I was taught chi kung, drills, and applications to the Hsing Ie. I only spent 2 years learning hsing-Ie which means my knoweldge is less than a drop in the Hsing-Ie bucket. If I stop studying SD and get the chance to learn from somebody who simply teaches Hsing-Ie or tai chi (with applications and not just hippies moving slow in a pot-induced daze) of PaKua, then I would love to focus on simply one style. And my silence on this point was coincidental. I was traveling for the last few days.

[PangQuan]

I have never really looked into SD history, is it of japanese heritage? The only reason I ask is the "Do" aspect. Ill post this question to Judge Pen sinse it seems he is the SD guy here.

[norther practitioner]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..

[BM2]

Never has so many, said so much , about so little. :o

[kwaichang]

HEY limp sword or is it willow sword? How were you used I know where you came from and know your background in the arts. And other than what you have read and the fact that you got your butt kicked somewhere you only know what you read. Why so much anger WS for someone who pretends to understand the TAO you dont show it. KC :)

[Golden Tiger]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..


Yeah, but it does make the day go by faster.....


JP, did you get that vid????

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, but it does make the day go by faster.....


JP, did you get that vid????

Yes, I watched it last night. Very nice. Interesting moniker for your e-mail! :D Congratulations, btw. ;)

PQ, the "Do" means "the way." Yes, it's spelled the way the Americans would spell the Japanese word in English, and is possibly part of the Japanese trappings that SD took up. It is sometimes spelled "Tao" which, to my understanding, is Chinese for "the way" and, depending on the dialect, pronounced the same way.

[Judge Pen]

HEY limp sword or is it willow sword? How were you used I know where you came from and know your background in the arts. And other than what you have read and the fact that you got your butt kicked somewhere you only know what you read. Why so much anger WS for someone who pretends to understand the TAO you dont show it. KC :)

KC, jeez man. We don't need any trolls on our side of the fence man. If your going to show support, do it constructively and leave ther personal attacks out.

[kwaichang]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

[wdl]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

kwaichang, how do I politely say this...

JP's absolutely right. If you want people to positively view us and give us a favorable opinion trolling isn't going to do it. Our peers here realize there are good people inside the SD organization even if they aren't convinced of it's "validity". The last thing we need is our personal character starting to be questioned and you've started it down that slippy slope. As far at TWS or limp sword, or whatever your calling him goes, I really don't care. One day he's smiles, the next day he isn't. Maybe he's bi-polar and needs some ritalin.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

btw who died and made you the king

If it wasn't bad enough fighting with those on the outside....... :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

i know willow sword personally and am tired of his attitude, because of his false statements and lies due to his personal deflation of his ego he tries to cut down Master Joe and SD and btw who died and made you the king , to say what "we" want kc

No one died and made me "king," it's just my opinion for whatever it's worth. My opinion is that there's enough negativity surrounding SD that "we" don't need to add to it by attacking people that you may know personally on an internet forum where you are posting "anonymously," but different people have different temperaments.

BTW, I think I know you, at least know of you very well, and if I'm right you are highly respected for your skills. Both inside and outside of SD.

[Ralphie]

Yo Golden Tiger, what's up? Hope you and your fam are doing well. I'm here, chillin' like a villain. However, and this is for you REM fans, you can run a carbon date test on this thread, and you will find, it's all been said before. As you well know, I have my opinions about SD, but I've found that a great deal of KF is promoted by sheisters. So, most of my arguments have evolved outside of why SD sucks (I already know why :) ; attempting to understand what makes sense in MA and what doesn't. For example, the discussion of Qi on the other page. I don't believe in hocus pocus, but I do believe that you can become more efficient on many levels by practicing qi gong. Probably the things that I will argue still, are when people give bad or dangerous advice. Things like biting as a good method to defeat a grappler, trying to convince the masses that sinking into a horse stance will prevent a takedown, etc.

Just out of general interest, I emailed tws after his defeat, and I think he's sincere in his criticism of SD. An observation: the "fables" created by many SD peeps are aggravating in the same way your least favorite politician blatantly spins bs to advance his/her position. I'll say one disparaging thing for fun...Kuaichang is the guy found at every SD dojo, who has the tattered black belt, and engages in every lower belt sparring session to show how tough and mean he is. Oh, how the rest of the world laughs at you and your ego, Kuai.

[lxtruong]

See, it's like a train wreck. Better than Days of Our Lives, more catfighting.

[wdl]

See, it's like a train wreck. Better than Days of Our Lives, more catfighting.

Days of Our Lives is boring, just like this thread. :p

We need the Got Qi? Girls(TM Gene Ching lol) to make an appearance.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Days of Our Lives is boring, just like this thread. :p

We need the Got Qi? Girls(TM Gene Ching lol) to make an appearance.

-Will

Two words: Lianne Lin

[kwaichang]

Ralphie you are sooooo wrong and as for those who laugh. who cares anyway those who speak do not know. I will e-mail you my credentials if you want then you may laugh no more. or you may again who cares. Dont talk about something you do not know. BTW who do you train with or do you kc :p

[sean_stonehart]

Hey, JP, who died and made you the king of which Asian women are hot?


:D


Psssst... don't question the JP... he knows these things... ;)

:D :D :D

[MasterKiller]

Who died and made you the king of what JP knows?

[sean_stonehart]

Who died and made you the king of what JP knows?

No deaths yet, but I've seen pictorial evidence of his hot Asian female skills & should be meeting his girlfriend this weekend... ;)

[Judge Pen]

Hey, JP, who died and made you the king of which Asian women are hot?


:D

Years of in depth, hands-on, research.

[PangQuan]

lol.. Pang.. do a search.. they've been "arguing" this for a long time..

K, so i googlized it and its weird. I see chinese and japanese terminology mixed, chinese style names by guys wearing Gi's and doing Kata. Its very confusing. From what I gather is that people decendent from japanese styles really liked chinese shaolin kung fu so they swiched over but kept some of the "old" ways.

everywhere i go its a little different. :confused: :confused: :eek:



;)

[wdl]

JP: One word: "wow"

Questioning JP on asian women is like questioning if water is really needed to sustain life.



-Will

[kwaichang]

My foopa you are all kings of your imaginary domain of CMA or karate. so easy to bait yet I do not hear from WS kc

[wdl]

Just don't ask him if something is a sport. He's a little shakey in that category. ;)

Golf & Asian women are TWO different things. Unless of course your girlfriend is Asian and plays golf. :D

Is hunting asian women a sport? :)

-WIll

[themeecer]

KC ... I go different ways in my reactions to some of the posters on this site. Sometimes I try to make more logical arguments and other times I just get ticked off and tell them what I really think. Heck ... sometimes I get ticked at those on our side of the camp who try to bend over backwards to accommodate our critics. (And not speaking of JP here)

I've even seen some that I wanted to beat to a pulp if I ever met them turn around and not be so bad. MK is one. Another, surprisingly is Fu Pow. Now that one blows my mind. He and I are on the same side of the fence on the thread discussing Chi.
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36070&page=7&pp=40

And I've called WS, Limp Sword before too.

[kwaichang]

Porn stars are real athletes they have stamina strength and technique not to mention strategy kc

[wdl]

Porn stars are real athletes they have stamina strength and technique not to mention strategy kc


That was my point with stripers. By the way they were defining it, stripping would have been a sport as well.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Heck ... sometimes I get ticked at those on our side of the camp who try to bend over backwards to accommodate our critics. (And not speaking of JP here)

****, who needs enemies with friends like these......

As for getting mad over this stuff, ain't gonna do no good (cue redneck accent). Use it as training is humility then get on about your business.

[Golden Tiger]

Hey Meece,

I was going thru my old tapes and had a set of you and Master Green doing the monkey stuff. You were just a wee lad back then....

[themeecer]

Yes he beat the snot out of me then. Wee lad? I was 21 then. He was going to do that demo at the last tournament but decided against it. It is quite a site to be on the recieving end of that .. especially to see him jumping through the air looking like he is going to land on you. This past time he was trying to figure out a way to land on my chest with both feet ... but there was no way to safely do it.

[The Willow Sword]

Well guys i have no idea who kwaichang is. he says he knows me personally. i Pm'ed him with the big question i guess as to WHo he actually is or she.

i guess the only thing that can be debated about statements that i have made that are allegedly "false" is what i have been able to discover about the lineage and history of SD(which everyone in here knows where i stand on it.)

As to any other statements i have made they have been either my "experiences at SD and my personal intepretations of things" "opinions that i have" and recounting the experiences as I experienced them and have lead me to this point.

of Course Kwaichang is more than welcome to list my "False statements" if he/she wishes for debate.


PEACE,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I knew you when. To say the lineage is false then post your sources let us all see what you found other wise you are making only opinions that cannot be proven a quitter is what you are looking for the easy path to enlightenment only hard work will find it kc

[The Willow Sword]

SO you knew me when?

answer my Pm and let me know who you are? Im not going to reveal your precious identity here. (you know how many Pm's i get from individuals that i keep under my hat?) You would be suprised.

Because if you do not revel to me who you are then i am just going to assume that you are some troll who may have been around me in the SD days when i was there and you really dont know me personally. because right now with your entrance in to the forums that is what you are being perceived as here(a troll).


PEACE,,TWS

[kwaichang]

WS So I take it you will not reveal your sources I can only assume you have no proof of your statements. Who I am is not important, the lies you spout about SD are. You degrade an art you trained in for 9 years. If you do not want to post it here send it to my e-mail and i will look at it. As far as your opinion is concerned you are welcome to have it but back up what you write. show us all i have explored your posts and didnt find any thing. think hard into your past and you will know me
kc :D

[The Willow Sword]

If i am right then yes KC does know me personally a little bit. Only because(if i am right) he and my mother went to the same COTA courses and we found out that we trained at the same school.

I will reply only to the "deflated ego" statement you made to me and say "look in the mirror at yourself long and hard KC. I respected you well inside and outside of SD. But let us BOTH not forget our personal lessons in life inside and OUTside of the school. DO not cast your stones unless you have real due cause,,and last i expereinced the cause of defending the school from "false statements" has always been met with silence and in my opinion a snobbish and elitist attitude (which i never had at the school)

it is only here where our annonymity has allowed the SD people to stand up for what they believe in and Others to counter it and Stand up for what THEY in turn Believe in.

If you posed these questions to your senior masters KC what would they say to you?(oh and congrats on your 4th ;) ) ill bet i know the answer..its the same answer i have gotten all these years."why do you waste time with it,,or Dont buy in to their BS,,or they are just jealous because(insert reason here). Always diverting away from the central issue that is posed so many times here on this forum.

You once asked me(if in fact you are who i think you are) if i thought that what we did was authentic shaolin(or some wording to that effect) at the time my answer was " i really dont know,,seems solid to me(or some wording to that effect)" that was the naive answer and at the time i really did not care(you know what my dedication level was at the school)

now if you were to ask me the same question? you get a not so naive answer and YES there will be some bitterness in the answer due to personal conflicts with you know who,,some may use this to delfate the other things that i say with regards to history and lineage,,but if you know the reasons why(my reasons and not what you think may be the whole story) then maybe your attitude would change a bit KC.

oh and i never said that i had a firm grasp of the tao,,i relate to what some of the tao says,,,take this excerpt for instance
" IF i even have just a little sense, i will walk on the main road and my only fear will be of straying from it. Keeping to the main road is easy,,but people Love to be sidetracked. When the court is arrayed in splendor, the fields are full of weeds and the graineries are bare. Some wear gorgeous clothes, carry sharp swords, and indulge themselves with excess,,they have more possesions than they can use. they are robber barons. This is certainly not the way of the tao".
lao tsu.

Peace to you KC,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Jason

[kwaichang]

You say it is solid but now u dont why the change? you have a reason ? show it state it Shaolin do is "real" Shaolin training you know in your heart it is why you say other wise can only be personal. I felt at one time you could have been an awsome martial artist and Shaolin practitioner why has this changed

"Each morning when I awake like a scholar before a black board i prepare a blank mind for the day to write upon" Write upon my board jason show me enlighten me not with "belief" but fact. When people are let down they often turn against those closest kc :confused:

[The Willow Sword]

check your private messages KC. i would prefer to take this dialogue off the boards.

Peace,,TWS

[Royal Dragon]

Just for giggles, what does Shaolin Do have in COMMON with Shaolin Temple Kung Fu?

I have looked at video of Shaolin Do on the web before, and everytime I do, see Karate, with added hand techniques. I don't see the smooth flowing percision of actual Shaolin Kung Fu. I DO NOT see Shaolin Kung Fu in anything other than a theatrical aproximation like might be seen in a theater presentation coreagraphed by someone who has never actually seen what they are trying to convey.

So, that being said, what is there that can show a technical, theoretical, strategical, or principal based tie to real, Authentic Shaolin?

[kwaichang]

so what style of karate do you compare SD to kc

[Royal Dragon]

My Brother was in Goju Ryu, I have some Kong Su Do, and freinds I had in my youth were into Shoto Kan. It's all choppy, liniear, and very regimented in the flow.

Also, I have been to enough Karate tournaments in my time to easily distinguish arts of Japanese descent from those of Chinese, especially Shaolin.

[kwaichang]

Go JU Shoto kan Wado ****o Ryu are all japanese arts not to be confused with the more traditional Okinawan arts such as shuri te naha te etc the Japanese arts are somewhat linear I must admit but having trained in Japanese Okinawan KARATE for quite a long time I can assure you that SD does not resemble it, however Karate may resemble Shaolin Esp the LOhan system or Hsing Ie likewise Aikido resembles Pakua in principle kc

[kwaichang]

Here is an interesting quote !!!!
The Willow Sword06-10-2001, 03:09 PM
I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,,IN FACT,,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing....in any regard i know the "LEGITAMATE CMA" world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
WHERE IS IT? SHOW IT TO ME. OPEN MY EYES.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved,,, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,,,,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your "legitimate cma teacher certification". OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the "truth or legitimate" ?cause your teacher told you it was so,,cause you read it in a book years ago,,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,,lets here this guys credentials,,,,,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc

[Fred Sanford]

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc

I think the key word is WAS

[spiraler]

Here is an interesting quote !!!!
The Willow Sword06-10-2001, 03:09 PM
I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,,IN FACT,,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing....in any regard i know the "LEGITAMATE CMA" world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
WHERE IS IT? SHOW IT TO ME. OPEN MY EYES.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved,,, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,,,,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your "legitimate cma teacher certification". OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the "truth or legitimate" ?cause your teacher told you it was so,,cause you read it in a book years ago,,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,,lets here this guys credentials,,,,,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

This was written by Willow sounds like he was defending SD to me kc


dude.... SHUT UP! heheheh im eeeeeevil.

[sean_stonehart]

Go JU Shoto kan Wado ****o Ryu are all japanese arts not to be confused with the more traditional Okinawan arts such as shuri te naha te etc the Japanese arts are somewhat linear I must admit but having trained in Japanese Okinawan KARATE for quite a long time I can assure you that SD does not resemble it, however Karate may resemble Shaolin Esp the LOhan system or Hsing Ie likewise Aikido resembles Pakua in principle kc


Goju ryu == Okinawan (Naha te)
****o ryu == Okinawan (Naha te & Shuri te)

Shotokan == Japanese via Okinawa
Wado ryu == Japanese via Shotokan
Goju Kai == Japanese via Goju ryu

;)

[Golden Tiger]

I think the key word is WAS

Excellent observation Fred. But that begs the question of why WAS he and isn't now? Did his change of heart come from some enlightenment or from a personal issue he had with his teacher?

If it was from the first, then I would have tons of respect for him. People wake up every day and decide that their current course is not the road that they really want or need to follow. I started in a class of about 40 new students and I am the only one left. I imagine that the others decided that SD was not right for them for what ever reason. Some changed to other styles of MA and we still workout together. Instead of wasting time slamming each others preferences of style, we pull from both sources and gain in experience and ability. That is how you mature as a person and a MAist.

On the other hand, as TWS's case seems, he had a personal issue with his teacher/school. I don't know the whole story nor do I wish to but by reading his posts and the emotions involved, we (the SDers and I am sure most others) take what he posts with a grain of salt. Perhaps his critisms are sincere but with this underlying anger, its hard to sort out what is real and what is a personal vindetta. Unfortunately, untill he can just let it go, his post do little other than provide us with a source of entertainment.

[kwaichang]

Excellent observation GT kc :)

[lxtruong]

I started in a class of about 40 new students and I am the only one left.

That's hardly surprising over the course of 20+ years worth of training. :)

[Judge Pen]

I'm betting most of the other 40 students dropped out within 2 years. I started with a class of 30 and 2 of us made it to 1st black. The other guy was 12 when he started and almost 16 when we tested for black.

[wdl]

When I first started back in 2k briefly, I'm the only one still around. There was a class of about 15-20 of us at the Rose Center. I took a two year work break in there too.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Excellent observation GT kc :)

Everyone has moments of greatness, mine just happened to have lasted for about 30 years........ :cool:

[wdl]

lol, GT's on a role today. I'm will to bet because of Louisvile and KY both winning. :P

-Will

[BM2]

btw who died and made you the king , kc


Well he does live in TN, Elvis lived there :cool:
I just want to know who made him Judge! j\k ;)
Yeah its ok to challenge somone's opinion, attacking with insults makes you a troll. Of course there are exceptions...Fred Sanford is fair game :eek:

And for what it's worth, nobody is going to change anyone's mind, really. :p Just look for the constructive critism and ignore the rest.
I suspect most are in SD are in it for personal reasons, not for competion. In any style there are some who excell and others that do not. As someone stated, if there were SDers that went to some of the CMA tournements and performed well, there would be something to base it on other than playing tag on a forum.

[Judge Pen]

Will, I thought KY lost to Michigan State.....

[BM2]

JP's posts are among the best from any in SD . I think we should make JP the SD spokesmodel :p

[Royal Dragon]

So, what does SD actually have in common with authentic Shaolin Kung Fu?

[wdl]

Will, I thought KY lost to Michigan State.....

I'll be, they did get beat.

To everyone from Kentucky: well cry me a river. :D

BM2: JP's a lawyer not a PR rep. LOL

-Will

[wdl]

So, what does SD actually have in common with authentic Shaolin Kung Fu?

RD, old question. same answers, so I'll keep it brief:

Stance Training(not everyone in SD has the crappy stances you see online)
Chin Na technique
Iron Body (Shin/Forearm/Shirt/etc)
Physical Conditioning
etc


-Will

[BM2]

Hey UofL is in the final four. ..............L'Yeah !

[Radhnoti]

I don't think SD claims to be like "those current inhabitants of the temple who were installed by the communist Chinese government after most of the REAL kung-fu left". :)

I never heard a comparison to current Shaolin, it was always a historic link that was mentioned.

[Royal Dragon]

Stance Training(not everyone in SD has the crappy stances you see online)

Reply]
This is common to all Chinese arts, not just Shaolin

>>Chin Na technique

Reply]
Everyone does this, even NON CMA's

>>Iron Body (Shin/Forearm/Shirt/etc)

Reply]
Again, this is common to most Asian arts...even OYD has thier method.

>Physical Conditioning

Reply]
Again, common to ALL martial arts of every geographic location.

From what I see, SD's claim is that they ARE Shaolin Temple kung Fu, and the only source for the entire thing. Yet, from what I have seen of thier online forms in the past, they bear VERY little resembance to authentic Shaolin Kung Fu at all. I kept an open mind untill I saw thier Mantis set.

It beared no resemblance to ANY mantis I have see. Manits is heavily influanced by Tai Tzu, the art I research and play with. So when I look at Mantis, I am looking at my Tai Tzu + some. When I look at SD's Mantis, I saw Karate with nothing more than a "Mantis hand" added on the end of the arm instead of punches.

There was no body structure, mechanics, or even the flavor of real Mantis. The techniques are were all "Disconnected", and didn't make any sense. One thing about Chinese forms, the techniques will work as seen in the form, usually against alot of diferent situations. The SD stuff I have seen looked like it was just basic moves stuck together, like punces, kicks and whatever. They did not seem to be a chain of various "Solutions" like CMA forms useually are, let alone ANYTHING of a real Shaolin flavor.

[The Willow Sword]

Well KC has so eloquently brought up a post from the past when i "WAS" a good and dedicated soldier at SD. im sure you could find lots of posts here when i was known as "Drunken ostrich" and was defending SD and such.

but as i stated before KC,,if you would like to talk with me i would be more than happy to explain to you my perspective of things now. Or you could go back in this thread and find where i began posting here(around page 40 something).

or you could give me a ring KC. you know how to get in touch with me.


PEACE,,TWS

[lxtruong]

Hey UofL is in the final four. ..............L'Yeah !

Too bad they're going to get pounded by my alma mater, Illinois. :)

[wdl]

One thing about Chinese forms, the techniques will work as seen in the form, usually against alot of diferent situations. The SD stuff I have seen looked like it was just basic moves stuck together, like punces, kicks and whatever. They did not seem to be a chain of various "Solutions" like CMA forms useually are, let alone ANYTHING of a real Shaolin flavor.

You speak of the dirty flow word, most of the SD stuff you see on the internet doesn't. Forms here are taught to flow together, things that are supposed to have angular and circular movement do. Do I flow? Nope, my forms suck.

I wouldn't consider myself remotely knowledgable on mantis. I have one mantis form, as mention earlier the one we usually refer to as "thrust". Thrust uses it's entire body to perform technique, particularly using the torso and lower back to strike with the mantis claw. The form also never retreats, it's always moving towards the opponent. I'm assuming you've seen the clip mantis clip on the Colorado site. The way I was taught thrust it has very little in common with that clip.


-Will

[Judge Pen]

JP's posts are among the best from any in SD . I think we should make JP the SD spokesmodel :p

Aw Shucks. *blushes*

[lxtruong]

Aw Shucks. *blushes*

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

[Judge Pen]

To be fair, "thrust" contains little mantis footwork. There are mantis forms in sd that do have more traditional footwork, but not thrust. The mantis claw in SD is used for both striking and "listening" which is a basic mantis fundamental principle. "Thrust" also relies heavily on what we call the invert kick which is a princple technique to the other mantis I've been exposed to. I know more mantis outside of SD than I know from SD. (2 to 1). One of the mantis forms I've been exposed to has an SD counterpart that is more similar to whqat you would expect to see (including footwork) than the SD mantis that has been displayed on the internet. I believe the mantis clip of GM Sin everyone mentions is from "thrust" as well.

Gotta leave this debate until tomorrow. Running late. . . .

[Judge Pen]

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

Hey, I've got that Richad Gear grey going on. That's hot! Although I've seen some SD ladies that I'd rather talk to then my mug.

Really, must. . . . . . stop. . . . . . . typing. . . . . .

[wdl]

Sorry, JP is insufficiently hot to be SD spokemodel. We'll have to look to some of the west coast schools for people who are suitable.

Why can't we hire that Asian modeling chick JP was talking about yesterday?

-Will

[kwaichang]

WS i read your posts I do not find any viable info to prove your point no one will find any the history is lost and or passed down by word of mouth etc. as we al l know stories change over time. Also I trained in Tang Lang sytems as well as Hung Gar years before kung fu even became as popular as it is now and the Mantis taught at shaolin does have progressive flowing techniques but to teach something it has to be broken down timing and rythm changes the application of any technique even mantis kc

[kwaichang]

OOPs i ment at shaolin do kc

[Radhnoti]

RD - "From what I see, SD's claim is that they ARE Shaolin Temple kung Fu, and the only source for the entire thing. Yet, from what I have seen of thier online forms in the past, they bear VERY little resembance to authentic Shaolin Kung Fu at all."

You are basing your opinion of "authentic" on something that SD DENIES to be authentic, I think.
The link to shaolin is historic, as I understand it. SD is not the only style I've seen refer to the contemporary Shaolin monks as "very pretty wushu and not traditional kungfu". SDer's are taught to believe that when the Southern Shaolin temple was destroyed all the "real" martial monks left. One monk, the highest ranking (so goes the story) martial monk is considered the founder of SD. The SD reasoning is ...from my observations...that since he was the temple "leader" and had the "full" shaolin system, SD is the direct and true lineage of the HISTORIC shaolin temple.
That's the argument, and there's plenty to attack but very little "fact" to settle the whole thing.

[Jhapa]

that since he was the temple "leader" and had the "full" shaolin system, SD is the direct and true lineage of the HISTORIC shaolin temple.
That's the argument, and there's plenty to attack but very little "fact" to settle the whole thing.

they don't provide an ounce of proof, that he even existed. if he was really a master of shaolin's fighter monks, than wouldn't they have included into their history. they have lineage going back hundreds years, some 30+ generations. you would think one of those generations history might slipped it in there.

[kwaichang]

There are alot of things that happen that are not in historic books or records not a valid point and most of shaolin had to do with the abbots more than the fighting monks as far as succession and history remember TaMO

[cho]

and the hairy guy that happend to master the "full" Shaolin system just slipped out of the history books???
The last surviving master of all the Shaolin arts, who managed to have his photo taken, just wasn't worth bothering to be written about?

Radhnoti: I think what Royal Dragon is saying is that SD doesn't look like any kung fu based from Shaolin he's seen. Not the styles that are there now or any other that has evolved outside the temple.

[Radhnoti]

Cho,
I'm just saying that no one is going to get far comparing SD to other styles as a critique. Lots of possible answers to that particular "attack".
1. "Well, this person or that said ours is good/old/traditional kungfu."
2. "Ours is the REAL stuff...before shaolin was turned into a performance art."
3. "Theirs has been altered, since they didn't get the full system."
4. "GM Sin has been teaching our material since the late '60s...stuff that they now teach as shaolin as "traditional". Where'd he get it all before the days of video and books with the forms step by step?"

It's just an avenue that's been followed up and down a million times...


Cho - "and the hairy guy that happend to master the "full" Shaolin system just slipped out of the history books???
The last surviving master of all the Shaolin arts, who managed to have his photo taken, just wasn't worth bothering to be written about?"

True. Not to mention that no other style seems to have mentioned him in their oral traditions either. Again, it's not like there are no other styles claiming to descend from the Southern Shaolin temple...if such a GM existed it's almost certain that some other style would have (at the minimum) one story of the "hairy monk".

Without GM Su you possibly have GM Ie travelling around the orient collecting martial information, some of which probably would/could/might have originated at Shaolin.
Which brings you back to a historic connection to shaolin, even if you assume the "transmission" was incomplete. Lots of styles of kuntao/silat claim a connection to Shaolin from what I've been able to dig up...

[cerebus]

Oh, and by the way, what's with SDers always claiming that Sin couldn't have learned from books 'cause there weren't any such books around when he was young? Hong Kong has been mass producing such instruction manuals since the '50s. Cheap, paperbacks that have sold all over SE Asia.

And since Sin The's forms look like they're being done by a Karate guy who learned them from books, I'm guessing that this is exactly the case.

[Ground Dragon]

Sure, I think a connection to shaolin could be argued, in fact I think there is a connection on some level. But what ticks folks off is when the argument is made that shaolin-do is the true transmission of the shaolin arts and what other people practice is the flowery wu shu crap.
Shaolin-do has propped up Su Kong as some end all, be all grandmaster who was able to gather all of the arts of shaolin and master them and pass them on. The truth is probably something closer to him being one of several teachers for Ie Chang Ming as Ie's own letters acknowledge his travels through different parts of Asia. And on another note, it cannot be denied that Ie was not the only teacher in Indonesia.

[wdl]

The truth is probably something closer to him being one of several teachers for Ie Chang Ming as Ie's own letters acknowledge his travels through different parts of Asia. And on another note, it cannot be denied that Ie was not the only teacher in Indonesia.

Yes, that has been a contention of mine for a long time, and I think a reasonable train of thought. It is not unusual either for a Chinese MA that came out of Indonesia to be a hodgepodge of styles. The question is whether or not "Kun Dao" as a term applies. But what is "Kun Dao" can it as a term be used interchanibly with Kung Fu? Especially if a Kun Dao style traces lineage back to Shaolin. I think a symentic discussion of whether or not Kun Dao and Kung Fu are synonyms is in order.

-Will

[cerebus]

So many poor, ignorant individuals with their heads stuck deep in the sand (by their own choice, no less). This is sad. :(

[Fred Sanford]

Yes kuntao is chinese kung fu. kuntao is a hokkien word.

speaking in generalities Shaolin-do may meet the definition of kuntao as any chinese martial art in indonesia would be called kuntao.

The big question really is this.......Is shaolin-do actually chinese kung fu? Seems doubtful at best.

[wdl]

So where does this disconnect between "Chinese Kung Fu" and "Chinese Martial Art" lie?

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

So where does this disconnect between "Chinese Kung Fu" and "Chinese Martial Art" lie?

as far as I've always known the two terms are interchangable and that's how I use them. they mean the same thing.

[kwaichang]

Cerebus tread your profile only 11 years not much time there so you know all about Shaolin and CMA OOOOOH I dont think so , sorry

[cerebus]

LOL!! 11 years? 11 years what? Where on my profile do you come up with 11 years for anything?? Have you even started learning math yet junior? Yeah, that's what I thought. Have a nice day... :p

[cerebus]

And coming from someone who's too afraid to even post anything on their profile, it's even more amusing. Bow down before your SD idols and accept everything they say at face value because they ARE your sole source of info on the martial arts so they MUST be right. What a classic loser... :p

[Brad]

kwaichang... this is 2005 ;) 2 more years and he'll be qualified to be Shaolin grandmaster :D

[cerebus]

LOL! Geez, I hope not! :D :D

[Brad]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple ;) You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/images_more/twins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war ;)

:D

[cerebus]

AAAAAAHHH :eek: :eek: :eek: !!! BLEAH!! *Vomits on keyboard*

[Golden Tiger]

Wouldn't be too bad... it'd give you a chance to wear the old karate gi again, break out the good ole Shaolin numbchucks and bo staff katas... and you might even be able to con a couple of your deciples into buying you a genuine lineage proving steele at the Shaolin Temple ;) You can tell everyone how your branch was passed down from Su Kong's seniors, grandmaster Chang and grandmaster Eng http://www.lib.unc.edu/ncc/gallery/images_more/twins_large.gif
Start a pretty kick@ss lineage war ;)

:D


:rolleyes: ...............

[kwaichang]

My appologies true my math skills are rather poor. you started in 79 right?? So if you practiced consistently by my standard that would be at least 15 hours per week that would make 26 years in 2005. 3 years in Hsing Ie and other systems prior to that most of which is Japanese or Brazilian maybe. Not too bad junior.
Ok here goes. Started in Isshinryu in 1971, Trained in Hung Gar and Tang Lang from latter 71- 82 privately, took SD for 1 year that year, had to stop due to time. In 78 began cross training in Aikido and Shotokan all instruction from Uchi Deshi or 6thdan and up, cont for 14 years that brings us up to 92 been in SD since 92 i think this is close to correct. any way a total of 34-35 years this August. Fought professionally with PKA and boxing as well. Not ranked. I worked out and trained the world welter weight Kick Boxing Champ of 1983-87 EM . There is more but dont want to brag and you wouldnt believe it any way. I dont have any papers showing what I did. Have a wonderful day.
If you want the whole story Ill e-mail it to you. KC

[The Willow Sword]

Well i can corroborate some of what KC is saying about his background. And none of you here know me as a liar(hehe except for those who think i am lying :p )

KC is one of the few people at Sd that i actually got along with and that i actually consider a friend(he may not have as much affection towards me but i dont really care)
Amidst his jabs and stabs here on the forums he is actually a good guy,,,. But you dont have to take my word for it. He is happy with where he is i think.

PEACE,,TWS

[The Willow Sword]

OK i want this to be the last thing i post herein this thread. so here goes.

i think most of us here are not saying that SD is NOT a martial art and could be ineffective in fighting and such. people debate this over and over here in these threads and the truth of the matter is that it really doesnt matter what you study be it TKD or JKD or JMA and such. The fight itself and the skill therein lies with the individual and what he/she chooses to utilize.

Some here will debate martial principles until they are blue in the face,,,comparing CMA principles with JMA principles and such and we will all have our own opinions on it.

i think what most here get down on sd about are the "claims" and the "history" that it makes for itself. There is a plethera of information to counter the history claims that SD makes. The history in shaolin and the supposed southern shaolin.
we can debate things here until this thread chokes the bandwidth.

i did my research after i left because i wanted to see why it was that so many harped on sd and i wanted to find out things for myself and i did find a glaring contradiction and that lies with the picture if "SU Kong" i discovered that this is not who SD claims him to be. my proof? the pictures i have posted here and the other picture that tells who this person was(Li Baoshu) as they ARE the same individual.

Now the picture of "li Baoshu" who is named by SD "su kong tai jin". the mystery still remains as to where that picture is.(some say it is in a PT barnum book about circus oddities and some say it is in a guiness book on freaks of nature and such)and where? well,,that is to be determined. I know where i was told it was,,but i am not going to reveal that here.

as for the other picture of Li boashu(the head shot that is messy looking and not all groomed) is from this book:
(Liu Mingyu et al (eds), Zhongguo maoren
(Hairy men of China), Shenyang: Liaoning kexue jishu chubanshe, 1982)

and you can find this book at any decent university with a section on china. now i have not seen that book in person,,this is what was told to me about the author who used that pic in his study of genetics and hair in china.

This doesnt set right with me,,these findings i discovered,,for if you base your work and life on a fabrication,,what ELSE have you fabricated? to me it is deeply distrubing and did not wish to be a part of that organization any longer.

as for my personal issue with the school i trained at? yes i have one.
When you say that you are going to do something YOU DO IT. Your word is your bond. My "ego" was not deflated as some say,,,i got screwed to preserve someone ELSES EGO,in my opinion. and that doesnt set right with me. it shows a lack of integrity and shows me how i was really viewed at the school by the main teacher, and no way was i about to continue to be at a place where i was never welcomed or honored in the first place. enough said on that.

thats all i have left to say on this thread,,take it as you will,,think what you want.
Peace,,TWS

[kwaichang]

:) Wow Willow I think you are being honest with us and your self so you are basing everything you think solely on the physical proof of the pics you found is that right. kc :o

[Judge Pen]

I like Willow, but we have debated the Lai Boashi picture to death. Heck it's not even a consensus among the non-SDers that the two are the same. Williow is convinced they ARE the same person, but the only proof outside of the two debatable pictures are the use of "all-cap" to illustrate his point.

Not that I even know that Su Kong really existed. I never met him. Heck, Sin The never met him either. Maybe it's true maybe it's false, but what one believes to be true and what one can prove to be true are often miles apart.

This thread will never end. It's tiresome and the entertainment value has worn out.

[cerebus]

Hello KC. Well, if I'd wanted to belabor the point I could have mentioned much more than just the bare bones listed in my profile, but I'm not going to bother.

The question I have for you is this: if all you say about your training background is true, how can you possibly NOT see that SD isn't traditional Chinese martial arts? If even I (with my small amount of experience) find it to be so obvious, how is it you can be so easily fooled? If you have such extensive training in Praying Mantis Kung Fu, how can you watch Sin The's performance of his "Mantis" forms and not see how bad it is? Really, are you just turning a blind eye or can you truly not discern what it is you're seeing? :confused:

[kwaichang]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

[kwaichang]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc

[Judge Pen]

I have observed many Mantis forms, there are many to choose from Northern Southern 7 star etc, also I do not know what you have seen so I cant comment I do know what I have seen as far as Mantis is concerned, Mantis is a fighting system and I have seen what would be considered by many to be Shaolin Tang Lang with the low stances and all and the weaving movements so what have you seen do you have a clip or something that we can observe? Also let me say the Clips you have seen from SD are used for instruction the essence of the system is acquired by practice and dedication. The tapes you have probably observed are for instruction only not to teach spirit.

KC, they are referring to this:

http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=13

Check out the "Shao-lin" grandmaster link. GM The' is doing a mantis form, but it's devoid of the typical mantis footwork and body movement. I know this form, and it's not a good mantis form. That's not to say all of SD mantis is like this. I've seen some mantis that isn't devoid of these things, but this is what was available on the internet.

For an example, compare it to this:

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=tanglangshou

This is Jake Burroughs (Three Harmonies). I took "White Ape steals the peach" from him last year. I've compared it to SD's version. It was the same form played differently. To my eye, it wasn't grossly different. I've seen probably 5 versions of this form either in person or from the net, and they are all played differently.

The problem with 99.9% (myslef included sadly) of SD is that we learn too many different forms so that the distinguishing hallmarks of the different styles are often lost or blended together. Not that they aren't taught. Heck, not that the underlying drills and training aren't taugth either. But before we can really get it down, we move on to something else. It's not that the principles ren't there, it's that the majority of students don't put the time in. It's not a problem exclusive to SD, but SD is the (endless) debate at hand. I've seen some very good schools with iron clad lineages fall victim to the same problem.

[norther practitioner]

www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/downloads.htm - 23k here is a link for you to observe a few clips of the Shaolin Monks performing some forms If this is what you are comparing SD too you are right what we do looks nothing like this although I see small pieces of movements among the acrobatics. see what you think kc


:rolleyes:

there are some better clips of shaolin around..

unless you are looking to show the acrobatics side.