Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[goju]

it would be to good do that sweep after you a jab at their head so they are distracted

[goju]

yeah it looks like the regular bow you see in most schools from what i saw
inever like the fighting stance they showed us there thought its not springy enough for me goju has alot of crane in it and you need to be more elusive and quick

[Facepalm]

From alot of what ive read about this style and heard from the elder masters is that the crane should be quick and elusive but also that their is much stillness and patience.

Stillness punctuated by quick deceptive motion is how ive come to see the crane.

[Lucas]

what does sd bow stance look like? any pics?

crane also has great strength in its structure.

[Facepalm]

Usually in class when I go against a tough opponent ill start using the crane because it suits the way I defend myself. I really was unable to use it very effectively against Goju though.

But I remember that for those three months of brown belt where we worked on crane forms I was sparring the best out of my whole time there.

Calmly wait for the attack jump to the side and smack their guard out of the way. Then smack em in the face.

Oh those were some fun times

Now Ive been more focused on using movements from che chien and lohan short forms. I need to develop quicker, longer, and more powerful punches and develop my ability to string combos together.

[goju]

yes thats true even goju forms are still than explosive then still again its a counter attacking style as well

[Facepalm]

what does sd bow stance look like? Any pics?

Crane also has great strength in its structure.

0_
|-
/ |

[Lucas]

yes thats true even goju forms are still than explosive then still again its a counter attacking style as well

that would make sense with the connection to crane. for instance when we watch a crane in the wild fight, its always defensive and counter attacks, using form, stance and posture to put it into the dominant position.

[Facepalm]

well the body should be spaced one over to the right but thats basically it.

Low as you can front leg bent and thigh horizontal, rear leg almost completely straight.
Inside arm fist palm down and held horizontally outward with shoulder relaxed and dropped. Outside arm fist palm up chambered at waist.

[Lucas]

0_
|-
/ |

im just wondering more along the lines of if your style is particular about the form of your bow stance. for instance you will find variations between styles in chinese arts, some styles are rather strict or rigid on what they think the bow stance should be.

[Lucas]

is the front foot angled at 45 degrees or is it straight forward?

[goju]

yep thats true a crane is natural a weak animal so it dosnt use power goju like the chinese crane syle derives its power from violent torque from the waist when you attack

[Baqualin]

is the front foot angled at 45 degrees or is it straight forward?

Straight foward

[Baqualin]

yeah it looks like the regular bow you see in most schools from what i saw
inever like the fighting stance they showed us there thought its not springy enough for me goju has alot of crane in it and you need to be more elusive and quick

The fighting stances should be springy

[kwaichang]

The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot and knee the rear foot should angle out approx 45 deg the lead will help protect the groin for a straight on attack. In shotokan the hips are in what is called Hanmi this is one hip behind the other the SD Bow hips are in the same position. thus when you throw a punch from this position this will coil the hips and add power to the following punch and so on. KC

[Judge Pen]

when i went the stance they taught us was like a weird bow stance with most of the weight on the lead legs and the hands held at a weirdway

The bo stance isn't a fighting stance. It's a transitional movement that is trained static for strength and balance. Japanese karate teaches a simliar stance. The reason for sparring techniques is to help one understand basic sparring applications out of the short form.

You might find yourslef in a bo stance in a fight or for an actual application, but it is part of a transition or series of techniques. It should be part of a fluid movement and not held static. Lining up to fight from a bow stance is misleading and should be explained in connection to sparring techniques.

For example, you might step into a bo stance )either stepping forward or backward) to advance or avoid or to generate power on a technique or to root oneself.

To be fair, I've met people who postulate that one should be able to line up and fight out of a bo stance. All it takes is some quick lateral movement to show them the error in their ways.

[kwaichang]

Any stance with attack and defense should be there for only a moment, the moment of power or impact then on you go to the next position. The better you are the shorter period of time one is in the stance. KC

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=kwaichang;942315]The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot

Your probably right......I've only practice Internal for years now and the stances are different;)
BQ

[goju]

i know but the official sd fighting stance i was taught lloked liek a bow stance and they insisted we fight with that the upper body is leaned forward tooand one fist is like at chest level and the other at nose

[Facepalm]

The sparring stance as described to me has been said to be halfway between a bow and horse stance with your feet out of alignment for lateral support.

It is taught at CSCs that your supposed to have 60% weight forward but I dont think that is supposed to decrease the mobility of the stance your still supposed to be light on your feet but I think the 60% weight forward is to aid in rooting against a sweep or so Ive been told.

The arms are held outward away from the body at like a 135 degree angle with the rear fist guarding alongside the forearm of the lead arm.

Thats the best way I can describe how this stance was taught to me

[sean_stonehart]

[QUOTE=kwaichang;942315]The bowstance "should " have about a 30deg inward rotation at the foot

Your probably right......I've only practice Internal for years now and the stances are different;)
BQ

Ah don't worry, they're different between the north & the south too...

[tattooedmonk]

I have both my feet at a 45. Back foot internally rotated , front foot externally rotated.

[Yao Sing]

Are you sure it's not the other way around?

[tattooedmonk]

Are you sure it's not the other way around?Yes, if it was the other way I would be going backwards.:D

[Yao Sing]

Well you totally confused me then but that's not actually hard to do.

So your back foot is turned in (pigeon toe) and your front foot is turned out?

Facing up ^

\ - front foot external rotate
\ - back foot internal rotate

?????

or

/
/

That's how I stand.

[shen ku]

i do my sparring tech. from a cat stance?

[goju]

yeah that makes no sense either yao you wouldnt be in the bow stance with your lead foor sticking out its eithe rpointing strait or tucked inwards

cats allright i dotn like to use "stances" as in hosrse stance bow etc etc to fight because they were intended to be used to fight in the first place

[Judge Pen]

i know but the official sd fighting stance i was taught lloked liek a bow stance and they insisted we fight with that the upper body is leaned forward tooand one fist is like at chest level and the other at nose

There is no "official" SD fighting stance. You were there less than a year? The sparring techniques that were taught to green level did have the hand placement like you described, but it was not leaning forward. If you were taught that, then you were taught wrong. Heck, you can look at the KET tapes and see how the The' brothers taught sparring techniques. It is not like you are describing.

The sparring techniques were basic fundamental combinations that were straight sparring applications out of short form. You figure out what works for you by trial and error.

EDIT: I just read where facepalm confirmed that CSC taught a 60% weight on the front foot sparring stance. That's weird to me. I've not trained with the CSC (Soards) before. I've trained with people from Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas and Atlanta in my 20 years, and I've never known anyone to teach a fighting stance with an emphasis on weight on the front leg. But like I said when goju first started showing up, SD is very diverse in how much leeway each group is given to teach and interpret the material. There are many differences from area to area and there's lots of disagreement in how something should be done. That isn't always discussed on an internet forum because that's internal politics. SD is attacked enough from the outside to waste time arguing from the inside.

[Judge Pen]

yeah that makes no sense either yao you wouldnt be in the bow stance with your lead foor sticking out its eithe rpointing strait or tucked inwards

cats allright i dotn like to use "stances" as in hosrse stance bow etc etc to fight because they were intended to be used to fight in the first place

They weren't intended to be used as a static stance in a fight. But the traditional stances teach you proper body mechanics and how you should be transitioning in your fighting. They are often over emphasized in training for stength and endurance purposes, but the general mechanics should be there when you are moving.

Since we are talking stances, what's the biggest limitation to the cat stance?

[sha0lin1]

So there was a link on here from someone commenting on USSD. Website claims some kempo background and a bunch of other stuff, but also its founders being granted Grandmaster -- both of them -- by the Abbot of the Shaolin temple? But I can't tell from their site what they profess to teach. What's the story with them?

There is a whole thread on here about USSD. From what little I know about them, they were originally a Kenpo school that some students broke off from, a guy named Mattera. They started teaching a little fu mixed in with their Kempo. From what I understand, Mattera went to the Temple and donated several thousand dollars and received his 10th degree black belt and title of grandmaster from Shi Yong Xin. Now, that is just downright weird because Shaolin Temple doesn't have a ranking system so there is no such thing as a 10th degree black belt. As for the title of grandmaster, it is likely that he recieved that due to his generous donation to the temple. Akin to recieving an honorary degree from a University when you make large donations to them.

[shen ku]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

[tattooedmonk]

Well you totally confused me then but that's not actually hard to do.

So your back foot is turned in (pigeon toe) and your front foot is turned out?

Facing up ^

\ - front foot external rotate
\ - back foot internal rotate

?????

or

/
/

That's how I stand.They could be either way depending on which side is forward. Also, I do not practice with them in direct alignment with each other. Meaning the back foot is not directly behind the lead foot, or the heel of the back foot is inline with the ball of the foot of the lead leg.

As for weight distribution, I was also taught that it is 60 /40 for sparring stance. All stances have weight distribution whether you were taught that way or not.

[tattooedmonk]

There is no "official" SD fighting stance. You were there less than a year? The sparring techniques that were taught to green level did have the hand placement like you described, but it was not leaning forward. If you were taught that, then you were taught wrong. Heck, you can look at the KET tapes and see how the The' brothers taught sparring techniques. It is not like you are describing.

The sparring techniques were basic fundamental combinations that were straight sparring applications out of short form. You figure out what works for you by trial and error.

EDIT: I just read where facepalm confirmed that CSC taught a 60% weight on the front foot sparring stance. That's weird to me. I've not trained with the CSC (Soards) before. I've trained with people from Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas and Atlanta in my 20 years, and I've never known anyone to teach a fighting stance with an emphasis on weight on the front leg. But like I said when goju first started showing up, SD is very diverse in how much leeway each group is given to teach and interpret the material. There are many differences from area to area and there's lots of disagreement in how something should be done. That isn't always discussed on an internet forum because that's internal politics. SD is attacked enough from the outside to waste time arguing from the inside.I have never heard or seen done it how he describes it. He must be confused.

You say that 60 % is weird to you , why?? Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot?? You didnt learn stances with specific weight distributions??

[goju]

no im not, from what face plalm described it must be the same as what i was shown years ago and they called it our fighting stance

yes but not to fight with having to much weight on either foot is a problem for mobility

[goju]

ill send a pic to pens e latter on showing the stance i was taught at sd

[goju]

allright i sent the pic i beleive i got it all correct from what i remember from sd training

[Tensei85]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

I agree, I personally utilize this stance quite frequently in sparring.

It's helped quite a bit, allows my front foot to kick faster than a bow & arrow stance would. Allows footwork changes fast and angles as well.

But I guess there are pro's and con's as well.

[Old Noob]

i use cat for sparring tech, with a 60-70%back foot and 30-40%front foot. it was just the way i was taught to begin. i feel it keeps my front foot ready to move in any direction, up for a kick or to drive out to close distance, or instead or rooting to prevent a sweep, i just move the foot and counter...

disadvantage??,,, some people tend to mostly just stand on their rear foot and because of the they can not move quickly at all,,, but i do not believe that is proper but it is the most commen problem i see in teaching it

I think that, even if you have only 30% of your weight on your front foot, you're not technically doing a cat stance, but rather a rear-weighted sparring stance. I use approximately a 60 rear/40 front distribution. I feel like I can move my front leg quickly enough to check kicks and can get off front-leg kicks quickly from that position, while preserving the ability to quickly transfer weight forward for more powerful crosses and back leg kicks.

When sparring from a true cat stance, I fell like I lose power on front leg kicks and all my punches, unless I transition weight to that foot, which happens more slowly if almost all my wieght is on the back leg.

I'm just a 3rd brown, though, so I may just need more time to get comfortable with the cat. Being 6'5, 235, though, I don't like putting the vast majority of my weight on any one leg unless the other is airborne in route to a target.

[tattooedmonk]

Cat Stance is 90/10 and Reverse Sparring Stance or ( San Ti Stance from Xing Yi) is 60/40 depending on who you ask.

[Judge Pen]

I have never heard or seen done it how he describes it. He must be confused.

You say that 60 % is weird to you , why?? Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot?? You didnt learn stances with specific weight distributions??

I did, but I was taught that a sparring stance should be 50/50 more or less. the weight distribution from foot to foot will fluctuate vastly while sparring depending on whether you are advancing, retreating, rooting, evading etc. but the best mobility and least chance of being pulled or pushed off-balance comes from a mobile stance with equal weight distribution.

[goju]

if you put too much weight on the lead leg you can get puled off balance if yo put too much on the back you can get knocke dodwn to easily ive never seen a krate sensie worth his weiht using those stances to spar

[kwaichang]

A stance in fighting should not exist as soon as you are there you are gone, Stances are good for training purposes in my opinion. KC

[Judge Pen]

A stance in fighting should not exist as soon as you are there you are gone, Stances are good for training purposes in my opinion. KC

I think we are using the word stance for two different concepts. You are 100% correct with what you are saying. The idea that you take a stance to fight is misleading, but apparently some people have been taught to put more weight on the front leg or vice versa. You should be able to have a guard and in a position to move with maximum efficiency. I think, along the lines you say, that you should be fluid and mobile with, at least initally, equal weight distribution for mobility. At any given point in a match or fight, the weight distribution will be more or less depending on the circumstances.

Take San Ti for example. It has a specific weight distribution that one assumes before launcing into one of the roads of hsing Ie, but I doubt that the intent is to actually go into san ti prior to fighting. Thoughts on that anyone?

[goju]

go ahead and post it pen thats why i sent it
this ws the "official" sd fighting stance i was taught by the soards while i was at csc

[Judge Pen]

Here's a pic goju e-mailed to me showing the stance he was taught at the CSC.

[goju]

its a ****ty stance as well thats when i started turning around my opinion of them the lead leg is to open to kick and the hands can be trapped easily nor is it good for mobility

[goju]

god i look cool in that photo lmao

[BentMonk]

I think everyone has a "natural" stance once they've sparred for a while.

I agree with JP. The circumstances determine what you do at that moment.

IMO a well rounded fighter will train various stances in order to give himself a wider variety of movement options.

I feel that limiting yourself to one type of stance might lead to other unconscious habits. I think these types of things can potentially make a fighter easier to read, especially when tired.

Train to be adaptable and you will be.

I actually think that my CP helps me spar to some degree. My height changes with every step I take. This makes my reach very hard to gauge, especially since I have really long arms. In order to compensate for my mobility issues, I tend to "hop" on the balls of my feet when I spar. This helps me go with the flow of my opponent and often results in me gaining superior position.

Unfortunately, I circle to one side better than the other and I still have crappy balance. But, I do not have a "set" sparring stance at all.

I also love to spar, so I don't get upset when I'm handed my butt on a plate from time to time. It all just makes you better. :)

[goju]

i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

i like the taekwondo stance iw as taught its similar to bruce lees jeet kune do stance and gives you good protection and mobility

[Old Noob]

Here's a pic goju e-mailed to me showing the stance he was taught at the CSC.

The way you play it, Goju, you certainly make it seem like a boxer's stance from the 1800s. If that's the way you perceive the stance, no wonder you didn't like it. While the sparring techniques have a lot of backfists, I don't remember ever holding my hands in that postition (or loading the front foot 60% for that matter), but you've intrigued me. I'm going to have someone photograph my sparring techiques so I can see if my stance ever resembles that.

[Judge Pen]

i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

i like the taekwondo stance iw as taught its similar to bruce lees jeet kune do stance and gives you good protection and mobility

I was initially taught to fight southpaw incidently.

[goju]

its a good route to switch it up to southie if your right handed your jab will be strong enough to knock somebody out

[Judge Pen]

I think they would have to have a glass jaw for a jab to knock someone out. That or you would have to have the perfect angle on their jawline.

[goju]

ive knocked peope down easily sparring with it its a combination of the fact that my lead hand is my power hand as well and the expolsive whipping power in goju that i applied to boxing punches as well
and the makiawara its good for building expolsive force
combining asian methods of delivering power with boxing has really worked for me

[Judge Pen]

ive knocked peope down easily sparring with it its a combination of the fact that my lead hand is my power hand as well and the expolsive whipping power in goju that i applied to boxing punches as well
and the makiawara its good for building expolsive force
combining asian methods of delivering power with boxing has really worked for me

I've knocked people down with a good stiff jab, and I've knocked the fight out of them, but I have not knocked them unconscious with a jab. I'm sure MK could cite to the number of times somone has been knocked out in an MMA fight with a jab but I think it typically takes a corss or hook etc to hit the right spot with enough force.

[goju]

a lot of peopel even mma guys dont know how to torque there hips properly when they punch i practice it constantly thats why i can deliver that force in a jab i am extermely double jointed in my hips too so i may get extra rotation than the average bloke

[kungfujunky]

thats not the stance that is taught at csc

close but not quite..some glaring differences in fact

ill try to post a pic of myself in the stance that is universal throughout the schools (i have trained with all but 1 of the current instructors in csc including the soards and have seen the correct stance as it is taught by all of them)

:D

and goju..id love to cross hands with you sometime. I have 5 years in csc and would like to see what differences (if any) there are between myself and face palm(is that who you sparred?)

[goju]

remember i havent been there for years so i demonstrated it as best as i could
i beleive the lead hand is a litte more higher and im im not leaning for ward enough but thats the gist of the stance


yep face plam is the guy i sparred you in colorado too

[kungfujunky]

Yep im in Denver

[goju]

cool ill be free in about a month maybe a little less

[tattooedmonk]

thats not the stance that is taught at csc

close but not quite..some glaring differences in fact

ill try to post a pic of myself in the stance that is universal throughout the schools (i have trained with all but 1 of the current instructors in csc including the soards and have seen the correct stance as it is taught by all of them)

:D

and goju..id love to cross hands with you sometime. I have 5 years in csc and would like to see what differences (if any) there are between myself and face palm(is that who you sparred?) Looks different from what I know too. I am still wondering about the leaning forward that he keeps talking about.

[goju]

thats what i was taught whie i was there they may have change dthings up as well inoticed faceplam mentione dconditioning on saturdays we didnt have that when i went either
actually im not leaning forward enough the upper body was tilted forward more thna what ive shown

[Facepalm]

The 60/40 distribution as ive seen should not cause you to lean forward in any way. Infact "leaning" of any kind, other than laughing Buddha of course, is discouraged shifting the body while keeping upright is encouraged.

From the stance Goju was making id say that thats what I interpreted it as at first. You know the 1890's boxer technique. But Ive come to see it as being more relaxed. Maybe you might be waiting with a little more weight on that front leg but I always try to keep my body ****her back in the stance.

[Facepalm]

wow you cant say ****

[goju]

you can say **** ? what a ****in outrage lol

i know its feckin bent but thats what the soards showed me it does look like the old timey boxers stance come to think of it lol

[kwaichang]

Go Ju no wonder you dislike SD so much if that stance is what you were taught I would be angry too KC

[goju]

yup the minute they showed us that i went ummmmmmmmmm lol

[Baqualin]

Gojo, If you were taught that stance as a way to fight...I would have gone wtf too......FYI I been in SD for 35 years and never seen anything like that....if I fought someone like that I would probably lose the match from laughing myself to death. By the way there is no official SD fighting stances...each person has to develop that for themselves.....with that said the sparring techniques are taught in a standard way for teaching purposes...you can then take that and develop what works for you.
BQ

[SDJerry]

I used to train SD and the basic stance they taught when we first started sparring was the right foot forward stance with your weight equally distributed among both feet so you can move in either direction quickly.

I've seen people fight with more weight on their front foot, like a 60/40 and to be honest... as soon as I see that I start plotting :D

Someone made a reference to that being similar to and older boxing stance and that would make sense... they don't have to worry about kicks. Its harder to check a leg kick from a 60/40 stance so you would probably end up taking some punishment. I know they did not train leg kicks in the SD school I attended so maybe that explains why some people might have adopted that stance. You're still vulnerable to sweeps though.

[Judge Pen]

Gojo, If you were taught that stance as a way to fight...I would have gone wtf too......FYI I been in SD for 35 years and never seen anything like that....if I fought someone like that I would probably lose the match from laughing myself to death. By the way there is no official SD fighting stances...each person has to develop that for themselves.....with that said the sparring techniques are taught in a standard way for teaching purposes...you can then take that and develop what works for you.
BQ

ditto

I used to train SD and the basic stance they taught when we first started sparring was the right foot forward stance with your weight equally distributed among both feet so you can move in either direction quickly.

I've seen people fight with more weight on their front foot, like a 60/40 and to be honest... as soon as I see that I start plotting :D

Someone made a reference to that being similar to and older boxing stance and that would make sense... they don't have to worry about kicks. Its harder to check a leg kick from a 60/40 stance so you would probably end up taking some punishment. I know they did not train leg kicks in the SD school I attended so maybe that explains why some people might have adopted that stance. You're still vulnerable to sweeps though.

and ditto

[OldandUsed]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

[OldandUsed]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. You could use the deflection and trapping from the position and short kicks, elbows and knees were easy to use from that position, as well. I believe he called it a three point or three post sparring position. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

[Baqualin]

The photo of Goju and his stance look very much the way Bill used to teach a sparring method incorporating BaQua back in the mid-70s. At that time, the Soards were students at the Louisville club. Of course, there are some differences in what was in that photo and what Bill taught. You could use the deflection and trapping from the position and short kicks, elbows and knees were easy to use from that position, as well. I believe he called it a three point or three post sparring position. Way back when, Keith Murray and Keith Krawiec were the only ones I remember really getting good with it. But then I have sometimers. : )

That's also the Hsing I stance, it's still 50/50 to 60 (rear)/40 weight distribution, no leaning forward and the hands are not held like Jack Dempsey...it's very similiar to the Jiulong Baqua wedge...very good for what you stated above along with uprooting and take downs...anybody who has learned Hsing I shattering hands knows what I mean.....as soon as the target attacks, you attack.
BQ

[OldandUsed]

Yes, that is true. The three point had been shown to us before the Hsing Ie class was taught, so that was the reference I used. Good point, though.

[tattooedmonk]

I believe there is a misunderstanding in regards to the weight distribution.

I believe that you are supposed to be defending yourself from all directions and that the idea behind the sparring stance is that you are dealing with someone who is in front of you and because your upper torso, head and arms are turned in that direction that more of your weight is in the front than the back and naturally puts the weight forward on the lead leg.

It as if you are standing in a horse stance the weight is 50/50 meaning that if you cut the body in half along the sagital plain that 50% would fall on either side, where as if they were in fighting stance that 60%would fall forward and 40% would fall backwards.

These were the ideas that were conveyed to me.

[Baqualin]

I believe there is a misunderstanding in regards to the weight distribution.

I believe that you are supposed to be defending yourself from all directions and that the idea behind the sparring stance is that you are dealing with someone who is in front of you and because your upper torso, head and arms are turned in that direction that more of your weight is in the front than the back and naturally puts the weight forward on the lead leg.

It as if you are standing in a horse stance the weight is 50/50 meaning that if you cut the body in half along the sagital plain that 50% would fall on either side, where as if they were in fighting stance that 60%would fall forward and 40% would fall backwards.

These were the ideas that were conveyed to me.

It would be hard to generate explosive power that way.....where your spine is in relation to your feet is what decides where your weight distribution is. If your posture is correct you have a direct line of force from your rear foot up your spine and out your fist......from the front there's no direct line of force to your fist.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

It would be hard to generate explosive power that way.....where your spine is in relation to your feet is what decides where your weight distribution is. If your posture is correct you have a direct line of force from your rear foot up your spine and out your fist......from the front there's no direct line of force to your fist.
BQ Can you please explain with a little more detail?

I understand that the energy runs along the kinetic chain from the back foot, along the length of the leg, up the spine, along the length of the arm and out from the fist.

Like I said, I understand it as how much of your body is on oneside over the other not so much as you have more weight in the lead leg than the back.

I agree that no one should stay in one stance in a self defense / fighting situation for longer than a split second. However, for stability, balance, strength , weight distribution through a specific range of motion, etc. practicing stances both statically and dynamically with various weight distributions is beneficial.

[tattooedmonk]

.......in sparring stance, are they in an uppercut postion or vertical fist position?? I know that out west they do it with both hands in an uppercut position.( 1800s boxer style)

I have a video of EML (from the 80s) doing it with lead hand uppecut position and back hand in a horizontal postion.


Anyone???

[kwaichang]

Sounds likie you are describing ST # 1 KC

[Yao Sing]

They could be either way depending on which side is forward. Also, I do not practice with them in direct alignment with each other. Meaning the back foot is not directly behind the lead foot, or the heel of the back foot is inline with the ball of the foot of the lead leg.

No, you said the rear foot was turned inward and the front outward so it doesn't matter which foot is forward. And my original example had them separated but the second one was a quik showing.

So you do turn your lead foot outward?

Isnt the sparring stance supposed to be more weight on the front foot than the back foot??

Not at any school/style of Karate/Kung Fu I ever studied.

i switched my stance up now i fight south paw good thing is iused to be the other way but with a south paw stance my power side is forward and what i do since most people keep there weak side forward is i stay on there weak hand and leg thus you have my power side go against there weak it works like a charm

Northern Mantis uses strong side forward, something that came about gradually with me and I didn't notice as it was happening. I alternate when I fight but used to favor left forward (I'm right handed) but now I seem to go for right side forward more often.

[Yao Sing]

Since we are talking stances, what's the biggest limitation to the cat stance?

Coughing up a hairball when attacked?

Dog stance chases you over the furniture?

[goju]

yeah me too now i cant fight with my weaker side forward any more im a full turned southy

[tattooedmonk]

Sounds likie you are describing ST # 1 KCArent all sparring techniques done from the same position??

[Baqualin]

coughing up a hairball when attacked?

Dog stance chases you over the furniture?


hahahahahahaha:d:d:d

[One student]

Don't many sport MMA fighters preach weight forward stance, or at least equal, to make one less susceptible to take downs? Even though MORE susceptible to other things?

[SDJerry]

yeah me too now i cant fight with my weaker side forward any more im a full turned southy

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

[Judge Pen]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

That's excellent advice that I haven't considered before. Years ago I made a conscious effort to train my weak side to try to balance myself out. I'm now better with it, but not where I would like to be. Certain techniques are useless from my left side, but some techniques, like my side kick, are actually as strong or stronger. I like to start out sparring on my left side if its a freindly match to get some work in on that side.

[MasterKiller]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.

This is precisely why the Chinese San Shou teams switched to orthodox stance. Muay Thai fighters were killing them.

[Old Noob]

What would be the optimal stance if you're cross-dominant? I'm a soutpaw but my right leg is definitely the smarter of the two. I generally fight left hand forward, which puts my power arm up front but leaves my stronger leg. Opinions?

[solo1]

Im testing for Green this weekend someone wish me luck.

[Old Noob]

Im testing for Green this weekend someone wish me luck.

Good luck! The green material rocks!

[Shaolin Wookie]

As for MMA/BJJ stances, it depends on what kind of fighter you are. If I'm squaring off, and there's distance, and I have a kicker in front of me, I fight weak (left) forward, because I want to shoot and post up on my right leg for the takedown (double-leg). Always post up on the dominant leg. If I'm in close and looking for a single-leg, it's right lead because I don't need distance. I want to keep it close. If I'm fighting a grappler, I lead left anyways, since it's the quicker/more flexible of my two legs, oddly enough, even though my right is stronger. So when I sprawl, it's better as a base.

If you're fighting a striker, it doesn't matter as much--just preference. And maybe you can bring him to your power hand with a weak-side stance forward if he doesn't know how to move laterally very well. But you can get thrown off by a grappler who mirrors your stance (your right lead, his left lead). You'll think he's a southy, but he's looking for the takedown. That's why strikers usually get caught by surprise. They think the guy is wide open for kicks from their power leg...and then bam, they're on the ground like a fish out of water.

[MasterKiller]

As for MMA/BJJ stances, it depends on what kind of fighter you are. If I'm squaring off, and there's distance, and I have a kicker in front of me, I fight weak (left) forward, because I want to shoot and post up on my right leg for the takedown (double-leg). Always post up on the dominant leg. If I'm in close and looking for a single-leg, it's right lead because I don't need distance. I want to keep it close. If I'm fighting a grappler, I lead left anyways, since it's the quicker/more flexible of my two legs, oddly enough, even though my right is stronger. So when I sprawl, it's better as a base.

If you're fighting a striker, it doesn't matter as much--just preference. And maybe you can bring him to your power hand with a weak-side stance forward if he doesn't know how to move laterally very well. But you can get thrown off by a grappler who mirrors your stance (your right lead, his left lead). You'll think he's a southy, but he's looking for the takedown. That's why strikers usually get caught by surprise. They think the guy is wide open for kicks from their power leg...and then bam, they're on the ground like a fish out of water.

Sport fighters are taught to fight one-side forward, for the most part, to protect their power leg and setup strikes from the power hand.

When you enter the clinch, all bets are off, but from a purely striking standpoint, I'd have to disagree with your above assessment in regards to the general consensus. It's almost always power-side back, except for situations when you use a switch-kick or something similar. But even then you return as quickly as possible to prevent leaks in your guard.

[Lucas]

personally, i keep it my left forward, to take the damage, and set up for my stonger strikes. id say my jab is pretty much the same with either fist though. its a jab, pretty easy to bring up to speed imo.

on a side note, i dont practice sd, but im glad you guys offer up technical discussion here.

[tattooedmonk]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

[Judge Pen]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there.

[Facepalm]

I know that the Elder Masters in Colorado continually stress practicing everything twice as much on your weaker side. They say to do this because "hes not always gonna be on your right side" and also to combat health problems associated with only using your right (like how baseball players and tennis players get bad elbows and shoulders from all the dominant handed repetitive motions they must preform).

On a side note... this month weve been learning the single ended staff form and I think ive been over doing the La Na Chas. Ive really done a number on my right knee dropping into reverse bow for the Na and shifting into forward for the Cha.

Do you guys have any pointers for reducing or preparing myself for knee torques like this in the future?....

Theres gonna be alot of spear down the road for me and Id like to prevent injury.

[MasterKiller]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

I think that you have to weigh what's most efficient and practical against what's more inclusive; in this case, I think it's much more efficient and practical to train one side to get the power and weight distribution maximized for those techniques versus splitting your training time for both sides in case one side is disabled. Really, if you are hurt bad enough that you can use your natural power side, your chances in the fight are slim to remote anyway.

[Facepalm]

Is that really a Walt Whitman quote?

Wasnt he a writer, poet, and naturalist or something?

I guess its a joke that im not getting

[SDJerry]

Shouldn't our training include reducing and/ or eliminating a dominate side??

Everyone is either right or left handed, that is what I am referring to when I say dominant side. Even those who are ambidextrous have a preference otherwise they'd sit around for ten minutes trying to figure out which hand they want to pick their fork up with.

If you look at my previous post, I recommend NOT fighting dominant side forward. Why, because you'll have a weak side and your opponent will eventually expose it. Forcing yourself to put your weak hand forward will, in time, give you the ability to defend well from either position.

[SDJerry]

I know that the Elder Masters in Colorado continually stress practicing everything twice as much on your weaker side. They say to do this because "hes not always gonna be on your right side" and also to combat health problems associated with only using your right (like how baseball players and tennis players get bad elbows and shoulders from all the dominant handed repetitive motions they must preform).

On a side note... this month weve been learning the single ended staff form and I think ive been over doing the La Na Chas. Ive really done a number on my right knee dropping into reverse bow for the Na and shifting into forward for the Cha.

Do you guys have any pointers for reducing or preparing myself for knee torques like this in the future?....

Theres gonna be alot of spear down the road for me and Id like to prevent injury.

Watch your structure and make sure your knee always tracks with your foot. Looking down your knee should always be over your foot and never to one side or the other. When transitioning make sure you allow your foot to pivot and move so that it does not put strain on your knee. That's my two cents :)

[MasterKiller]

Is that really a Walt Whitman quote?

Wasnt he a writer, poet, and naturalist or something?

I guess its a joke that im not getting

It's not a joke. Think about what it means and relate that to your training.

[Facepalm]

Watch your structure and make sure your knee always tracks with your foot. Looking down your knee should always be over your foot and never to one side or the other. When transitioning make sure you allow your foot to pivot and move so that it does not put strain on your knee. That's my two cents :)

That makes sense.

I think I hurt myself doing the form on concrete with no shoes on making me unable to pivot my foot as well as I can on carpet or with shoes on (my feet arnt quite there yet :o).

:D Ill try to keep that in mind when practicing and maybe ill take it easy on the Na Cha's for a while.

Thanks

[tattooedmonk]

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there. Cool,
I dont believe that it is so much mother nature as it is laziness and bad habits.

[kwaichang]

My son is a stealth walker and can sneak up on anyone I am going to see if he can walk the rice paper without tearing it!!! Now on the subject if you are trained properly you should be able to do every technique from either side. Therefore there shouldnt be a dominant side. Also Facepalm I am not sure which guen form you speak of but there isnt a reverse bow in La Na Cha KC

[tattooedmonk]

Everyone is either right or left handed, that is what I am referring to when I say dominant side. Even those who are ambidextrous have a preference otherwise they'd sit around for ten minutes trying to figure out which hand they want to pick their fork up with.

If you look at my previous post, I recommend NOT fighting dominant side forward. Why, because you'll have a weak side and your opponent will eventually expose it. Forcing yourself to put your weak hand forward will, in time, give you the ability to defend well from either position.I am ambidexterous, for me it just depends on which side of the plate the fork is on. :D

I understand what you mean though.

To reprogram the brain and the kinetic chain anything that we do predominately with oneside we should train ourselves to do with the opposite side. Then we eliminate weaknesses within our overall thinking feeling and doing.

[tattooedmonk]

My son is a stealth walker and can sneak up on anyone I am going to see if he can walk the rice paper without tearing it!!! Now on the subject if you are trained properly you should be able to do every technique from either side. Therefore there shouldnt be a dominant side. Also Facepalm I am not sure which guen form you speak of but there isnt a reverse bow in La Na Cha KCLMAO!! That would be cool!!!

I agree whole heartedly.

I think he is refering to the cross step ( la) step through reverse bow (na) and then the forward bow( cha).

[Facepalm]

Im talking about "Se mien pa fang kuen" (how its spelled in my manual)

On the "Na" we are told to drop into reverse bow stance as we "Take" the weapon down horizontally and then spring into forward bow stance as we "Cha"

What stance should I drop into for the "Na"?

I guess a horse stance would be a little more knee friendly.

[tattooedmonk]

Im talking about "Se mien pa fang kuen" (how its spelled in my manual)

On the "Na" we are told to drop into reverse bow stance as we "Take" the weapon down horizontally and then spring into forward bow stance as we "Cha"

What stance should I drop into for the "Na"?

I guess a horse stance would be a little more knee friendly. You are talking about the cross step ( twisted stance / female stance)( la) reverse bow ( na) and forwardbow (cha) Correct?

Like SD jerry said you have to make sure that your hip knee and ankle are in alignment. Dont go down so far until you have that type of flexibility.

[tattooedmonk]

Bent monk!!!!! Congratulations!!!!:D

[Facepalm]

You are talking about the crossstep ( la) reverse bow ( na) and forwardbow (cha) Correct?

Like SD jerry said you have to make sure that your hip knee and ankle are in alignment. Dont go down so far until you have that type of flexibility.

Yea,

Thats how its taught here.

Thanks for the pointers guys. Im pretty good at getting low but I guess my body isnt ready for this type of movement yet.

Ill take this form slow and more reserved so I can build a base for all the awesome spear forms coming up next year.

I really never thought Id like spears so much but It just feels awesome to thrust that thing.

One of the BBs said he heard that GGMICM could do a "Na" and splinter the white waxwood staff with the force of his drop.

Some more fun stories :D

[tattooedmonk]

Yea,

Thats how its taught here.

Thanks for the pointers guys. Im pretty good at getting low but I guess my body isnt ready for this type of movement yet.

Ill take this form slow and more reserved so I can build a base for all the awesome spear forms coming up next year.

I really never thought Id like spears so much but It just feels awesome to thrust that thing.

One of the BBs said he heard that GGMICM could do a "Na" and splinter the white waxwood staff with the force of his drop.

Some more fun stories :DCool, Thats how I remember it too.

You are right you should take it slow .

The movement is complexed and puts a great stress on the right knee. You must use proper body mechanics.

Spear is an awesome weapon.

Many cool stories.

[Lucas]

splitting your training time for both sides

along the lines of the old adage, practice one technique a thousand times, or a thousand one time....

we've all heard it

it also makes a HUGE difference if you plan on fighting competatively as to how your going to train, and what your game plan is going to be, generally speaking.

everyone should be competent with either side, but most all of us will have a stronger side regardless of what we do.

[kwaichang]

I will review it on DVD but a reverse bow for Na doesnt make sense KC

[kwaichang]

Just Reviewed it to be sure it is a Ma Bu that makes sense for power generation KC

[tattooedmonk]

Just Reviewed it to be sure it is a Ma Bu that makes sense for power generation KCDVD?? who is performing the form??
The way it is taught in the west it is reverse bow like face palm said. I doubt Master Sin would care if you did it either way. I also think that it would depend on the circumstances as to which stance you would use.

I do it with more of a sant ti stance for power generation. I split the difference.:D

I noticed that a lot of the stances and moves between the two schools are drastically different. This makes it very difficult to discuss forms techniques etc. because one side or the other is going to think that they are right. :D

[kwaichang]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KC

[tattooedmonk]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KCIs this a standardized DVD available to students???

Are you saying that you shouldnt or can not use na in a reverse bow stance for it to be effective???

[kwaichang]

Weapons are for fighting the transition of RB to Bow is long and is likely to be countered due to the transition time, My feling though is the RB has been dropped to the point that it has lost its Biomechanical function. In other words it should be like a Forward bow but in reverse. KC

[tattooedmonk]

Weapons are for fighting the transition of RB to Bow is long and is likely to be countered due to the transition time, My feling though is the RB has been dropped to the point that it has lost its Biomechanical function. In other words it should be like a Forward bow but in reverse. KC I see how that can happen. So you think that the way most people practice reverse bow is to low ??

What about the DVD?? Is this a standardized DVD of the material??

[kwaichang]

Yes to make it more CMA in appearance and for Muscle conditioning it is too low why would a RB be any lower than a FB.?? The DVD is standardized and I also have the form from Tournaments etc. KC

[kwaichang]

Going to go Roll be back later KC

[tattooedmonk]

Yes to make it more CMA in appearance and for Muscle conditioning it is too low why would a RB be any lower than a FB.?? The DVD is standardized and I also have the form from Tournaments etc. KCI agree. I do not understand why if there is a standardized way to do all the material ,why there is such great difference in the way almost everyone does it, also why the DVD is not available for all that practice SD east coast or west coast???

[Lucas]

why there is such great difference in the way almost everyone does it

thats because of the cma roots. its manditory so that we can all have something to fight about !

;):p

in topic of a RB, id say it still comes down to mobility and applicability.

[kwaichang]

Are you speaking of Joint mobility ? Or what and can you apply a RB in effective combat? KC

[tattooedmonk]

thats because of the cma roots. its manditory so that we can all have something to fight about !

;):p

in topic of a RB, id say it still comes down to mobility and applicability.OH, you know that!!!! . It transends CMA and martial arts.:rolleyes::eek:;):p:cool::D

[kwaichang]

Sorry I was responding to Lucas KC

[Lucas]

I was pretty vague I suppose. i have a bad habbit of that. :o

i was speaking in regards to the depth of the stance and its impact on the mobility of footwork, also the depth of your stance being in connection to the application based around your footwork and stance use.

of course im speaking in generalities, as i dont know shaolin do, but i do practice shaolin so im pretty sure its basically the same or similar material in essence.

[Lucas]

OH, you know that!!!! . It transends CMA and martial arts.:rolleyes::eek:;):p:cool::D

hehe ya, imagine all the fights that started in house because training brothers were arguing how to do something two different ways when in actuality their teacher probably just showed them each a different method !

gotta get the figthin in somehow ;)

[tattooedmonk]

hehe ya, imagine all the fights that started in house because training brothers were arguing how to do something two different ways when in actuality their teacher probably just showed them each a different method !

gotta get the figthin in somehow ;)Exactly!!! Some of the continued arguments about such small stuff could be avoided if the powers that be would step up and say something, then everyone could go back to training and fighting about important stuff.;):rolleyes::p:eek::D

[kwaichang]

Everyone wants to be a big fish so if something is different from the norm they become special. I look at the application for say La Na Cha and then I look at the Bio-mechanics to see if it is sound that is how I analyse techniques and their credibility. KC

[goju]

Don't many sport MMA fighters preach weight forward stance, or at least equal, to make one less susceptible to take downs? Even though MORE susceptible to other things?
yeah i was taught a smilar stance at the gym i went to its a horribly dumb way to fight your lead leg is exposed to much and you cant move in and out quickly

[goju]

IMO The issue with fighting dominant side forward is that you puts your power up front and exposed. Most people who train dominant side forward have the same problem you mention, they can not fight with the weaker side forward.

Any good fighter will notice that dominant side forward and start attacking that lead leg. What happens is eventually those kicks add up so you switch stances to protect the leg. Now all you have is the side forward you don't train and that's where it starts to get ugly.

That's what I was taught and I've used those tactis so I know they work.
actually i didnt say i cant fight with that the other side forward i just said i can only fight in the south paw stance now mobility wise it feels to uncomfortable to fight with my dominant right hand and leg back
and the way power side forward works is you do the majority of the attacking with the lead and stay on your opponents weak side which is usually their lead
and because this is rare for someone to fight like this its unlikely unless they are psychic that they will know that you have your power side forward

[goju]

Yes, but you're fighting mother nature there. Most people, even with training, will still have stronger sides depending on the technique. You can minimize it, but it will still be there.
no matter how much you train it it likey one side is going to be stronger than the other even slightly
i caneasily knock some one out with my left leg and hand as i can my right
however most people are orthodox fighters and rely too much on their power hand thefore if you stay on a right handed person weak lead side and you have your power side forward you can stick to this side and you have your power going against his weak

this was an old school boxing technique that seems to be lost now though even top mma fighters are always circling the wrong direction and moving into their opponents
power hand i think one of the few who dosnt is anderson silva

even bruce lee reconized the usefulness of having your power side forward
think about is
your dominant hand is allready strong there fore you should keep it in the lead and rely more on that torque you get from your hips by keeping your weaker in the rear thereby making your weaker side just as strong as your right

[goju]

and those san sho fighters got slaughtered by the muay thai fighters because they werent as good as them not what stance they adopted dosnt matter what side you have forward if your opponent technique is better than yours :)

[MasterKiller]

and those san sho fighters got slaughtered by the muay thai fighters because they werent as good as them not what stance they adopted dosnt matter what side you have forward if your opponent technique is better than yours :)

Why do left-handed pitchers give right-handed batters such problems? The ball still comes over the same plate.

[goju]

baseball has nothing to remotely do with fighting

[kwaichang]

It is the angle of the entry much like the elusive lead. Or Jab all Biomechanical movements are inter related. To have a dominant lead and realising it is a weakness , and lends itself to under developement of the other side. Whether intentional or not KC

[goju]

nope sorry if you think baseball and fighting are similar than theres something wrong with you you can use all the bio mechanical talk you want lol its still a dumb analogy

[One student]

Master Leonard and another 6th degree master The purpose of Na is to disarm and the Reverse Bow is a defensive posture loading to promote power to the Cha technique while there is more power generation for the Cha with a previous reverse bow , Rotational power from the hips will generate more focus due to the path of the spear or Guen KC

Don't know if this helps or hurts, but when I learned the spear forms in early 80's, I distinctly remember, and have done it that way since: la or lan (cross step behind), na (step into horse stance as lower the spear to horizontal position), cha (thrust into forward bow stance), and return to the na horse position. Some variations within the forms (one hand or two hand thrusts, sometimes the stances change) but that is basically it.

So, first time I ever heard of "reverse bow" for na position, was here now. And I had a rep for being very form technical, I think.

So, I pulled out my notes. Not my notes actually, but GMS's handwritten ones, with the Chinese terms and characters and his "fine points" for each move; and then, I was lead to believe, EML's hand written additions, all dated "7-25-80."

GMS: Only says, I think translating the Chinese, "cha pu chung ping lan, na, cha chiang." "In the middle of a cross step, do a horizontal deflect, take, and thrust the spear."

EML (I'm pretty sure), after the opening for example of the first spear form (Chiang Su Lian Si, or "Spear Fighting Techniques"):

"Bring the right leg behind the left leg, while bringing the spear to the LA position. Step into a horse stance with the left leg and bring the spear into the NA position. Change the stance to a left bow and thrust the spear to the CHA position and go back into a horse stance."

So at least ORIGINALLY, and for me still, and per the original written descriptions, no "reverse bow" for na.

Just some historical perspective. No doubt changed by someone. And my video tape of the spear forms, made also in the mid to late 80's by EML and another contemporary, also has horse for na.

[tattooedmonk]

Sorry, wrong form.:D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

It is the angle of the entry much like the elusive lead. Or Jab all Biomechanical movements are inter related. To have a dominant lead and realising it is a weakness , and lends itself to under developement of the other side. Whether intentional or not KC I agree.

Can you believe this kid( goju)??:rolleyes:

[kwaichang]

He just wants to disagree with me, I experience that alot, but like you said I am a little strong willed that way. Maybe I should go back to Aikido haha. KC

[goju]

yes because every body knows how baseball and fighting go hand in hand lolwhy i know many top mma fighters who practice their pitch to get read for a fight


kwai your lateral roation of the hip over the x axis across the why times two divided by three blah blah blah dont help you win your argument it just makes you seem like your talking out of your hole(and no not your mouth)
facts are fact you cant compare pitching to striking in combat it has nothing to do with it and even mentioning the two together is extremely dumb

but go ahead keep thinking AGAIN you guys know what your talking about

lol baseball

[goju]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol

[SDJerry]

actually i didnt say i cant fight with that the other side forward i just said i can only fight in the south paw stance now mobility wise it feels to uncomfortable to fight with my dominant right hand and leg back
and the way power side forward works is you do the majority of the attacking with the lead and stay on your opponents weak side which is usually their lead
and because this is rare for someone to fight like this its unlikely unless they are psychic that they will know that you have your power side forward

I would say you probably can’t defend yourself properly from a side you feel "uncomfortable" with. You can only attack your opponents weak side if they train in a similar method that you do... dominant side forward. This would make their left side which is naturally more uncoordinated their weak side because they never train it.

Now, you may get lucky against the average Joe or a lesser experience fighter but if you're lucky enough to cross hands with someone who knows what they are doing... you're gonna get picked apart. You don't have to be psychic either because here is how it would go down. They're gonna start tagging that lead leg and if you're a good fighter you'll check it... but I'm betting you won't. So eventually that lead leg starts to hurt and your body's natural reaction is to pull it back to protect it. Your opponent will likely notice and come in with a few combos to test the waters. When you start flailing that left hand around trying to block his attacks...... he'll know he's got your number ;)

[Baqualin]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol

Why are you so arrogant:confused:
BQ

[kwaichang]

BQL hey man we are all arogant in some way but most people know when to stop being that way so we can learn. He has no impulse control and words just fly out of his mouth. Or hes dumb KC

[Judge Pen]

no matter how much you train it it likey one side is going to be stronger than the other even slightly


Hey, we agree on something! I love you goju....one armed- man hug.

[Judge Pen]

La Na Cha.....I've been taught by two diferent teachers and it's always been a horse.

I agree with KC, the low depth of the RB is mostly for training purposes, but functionality of the RB doesn't have to be that low unless there is a "pull down" applcation such as in joint lock from our 4th book of Hua.

The way I see it, it is similar to our one-step sparring techniques. It is taught with large sweeping movements, but the real application is a quick subtle and small variation. But it's trained big at first to overemphasis the technique. It is harder to go small to big than big to small. The reverse bow is the same way for the most part with the added benefit of increasing range of motion, fleixibilty and strength.

[Facepalm]

Well that makes me more optimistic about not hurting my knee in the future.

The transition from horse to bow is one im very very used to by now

There are forms (like Lou Tien) with reverse bow to bow transitions but your not dropping into that reverse bow while whipping a staff to the ground and then transitioning forward into a spear thrust.

That motion was killing my knee.:(

Its good to have a place where I can get a variety of SD info and tips.:cool:

Thanks alot guys:D

[Facepalm]

facepalm outside of myself and yao you are the only person who post on this thread that is normal you know that lol


Wow

No ones ever described me as normal before

lol

[kwaichang]

Ok now I have to ask where is the reverse bow in Luo Tien ?? KC

[Facepalm]

Ok now I have to ask where is the reverse bow in Luo Tien ?? KC

They are all in the first section

After the rising with dynamic tension ( a la san he) in bird stance,

the third deflect double finger strike, you know the one directed to the left

We are told to step with the right leg out to the right into reverse bow as we circle block and then spring forward into left bow stance as we finger strike.

Before the first hook elbow finger strike after you double finger strike to both sides with a call you step back with the right leg into reverse bow then circle block and double finger strike as you shift forward into bow.

Also after the first hook left step forward elbow finger strike into right bow then the retreating deflections into a low bird stance with a beak back and strike with the right palm. As you rise up from the low bird stance you are effectively in a reverse bow as you circle block and then shift forward into left bow again for the double finger strike

Also this seems to fit into the bird form descriptions that TTM put up regarding the way bird style involves darting in and out.

Well it seems that way to me anyway :D

[tattooedmonk]

They are all in the first section

After the rising with dynamic tension ( a la san he) in bird stance,

the third deflect double finger strike, you know the one directed to the left

We are told to step with the right leg out to the right into reverse bow as we circle block and then spring forward into left bow stance as we finger strike.

Before the first hook elbow finger strike after you double finger strike to both sides with a call you step back with the right leg into reverse bow then circle block and double finger strike as you shift forward into bow.

Also after the first hook left step forward elbow finger strike into right bow then the retreating deflections into a low bird stance with a beak back and strike with the right palm. As you rise up from the low bird stance you are effectively in a reverse bow as you circle block and then shift forward into left bow again for the double finger strike

Also this seems to fit into the bird form descriptions that TTM put up regarding the way bird style involves darting in and out.

Well it seems that way to me anyway :D All four of those should be in a sparring stance/ bow stance, if I remember correctly( just did the form). There is a reverse bow after that, after you cross the arms in front of your chest and finger thrust out to the (L&R), right before you circle the hands around and squat.

[Facepalm]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

Real men never squawk. They crow.

Bangarang Peter!!

[Facepalm]

Real men never squawk. They crow.

Bangarang Peter!!


LOL

But Im comfortable enough in my manhood to tweet even

[tattooedmonk]

He just wants to disagree with me, I experience that alot, but like you said I am a little strong willed that way. Maybe I should go back to Aikido haha. KC Lmao!!!

No Sh!t.

Unbelievable.:rolleyes::eek:;)

Lets see guys who have doing it under ten years combined or guys that have been doing it for over 60 yrs combined....HMMMM?:D

[tattooedmonk]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast? LMAO

good question though.

There are valid reasons as to why you should make the audible sounds when practicing forms.

You ever hear of the six healing sounds or tones??

[Facepalm]

LMAO

good question though.

There are valid reasons as to why you should make the audible sounds when practicing forms.

You ever hear of the six healing sounds or tones??

Ive never heard of them but from what ive heard and been taught about meditation, colors, and seasons and what not I wouldnt be suprised if there are also sounds that correspond.

Theres this one kid (just got first black) though who lets out a really loud hoot or a pigeon coo or something like that when he does these and you can tell that hes really pleased with himself and it just makes me want to smack him upside the head ( which i guess i could do to him next time we spar ) but hes not at the same school as me :(

Me and my friends have an inside joke about squawking at b**ches so I always make that noise and laugh a little to myself. :)

[tattooedmonk]

Ive never heard of them but from what ive heard and been taught about meditation, colors, and seasons and what not I wouldnt be suprised if there are also sounds that correspond.

Theres this one kid (just got first black) though who lets out a really loud hoot or a pigeon coo or something like that when he does these and you can tell that hes really pleased with himself and it just makes me want to smack him upside the head ( which i guess i could do to him next time we spar ) but hes not at the same school as me :(

Me and my friends have an inside joke about squawking at b**ches so I always make that noise and laugh a little to myself. :)there is. Have you done the Hua Tuos five animal frolics???

You should smack him. Anyone that is that proud or amused with themelves should be!!:p:D

If he was at your school he would give plenty of reasons to smck him all the time!!! Consider him luck.:p;):D

[Judge Pen]

Do they make you guys squawk for these forms on the east coast?

No. Two different east coast teachers. No squawking or crowing or whatever.

[kwaichang]

I was taught to Kaw during certain points of the form. But no reverse bow, Its hard to dart in and out from a low reverse bow IMHO KC

[One student]

For what it's worth, again those who were privileged (me included) to be in the very first class where those three bird forms were taught, by MH, whose specialty was bird -- no squawking or other noises. Unless he was holding that back and added it in later when I wasn't around, someone else came along and added it. Like reverse bows where they don't belong. It does drive me crazy when people who have no business doing so make their own changes to material taught by someone far more qualified than they are, for no other reason I can think of but ego, to make themselves stand out. Seems kind of arrogant to me.

Not that there aren't appropriate places for sounds, like in the shien tien chi training, or in Hsing Ie (the laughing/taunting), and Liu Hsing. Or kia. Just (not that I know of) in the bird forms. At least not originally.

On second thought . . . I can't say that once MH left, GMS couldn't add squawking, or more likely, "caw"-ing. That would be a different story, in which case I would be wrong. Anyone know, or can trace back, to first person who ever taught any squawking in the bird forms? Then maybe we can get to the bottom of it (althought that hasn't seemed to work with anything else).

[One student]

Sorry, wrong form.:D:cool:

So, which spear form has na position in reverse bow? Other than once or twice here and there, I'll give you that (near opening of Lo Family Spear for example), but as part of the standard sequence.

[tattooedmonk]

So, which spear form has na position in reverse bow? Other than once or twice here and there, I'll give you that (near opening of Lo Family Spear for example), but as part of the standard sequence.We were talking about the single ended staff form. Thats all:D

[tattooedmonk]

I was taught to Kaw during certain points of the form. But no reverse bow, Its hard to dart in and out from a low reverse bow IMHO KCMe too.:D:cool:

[One student]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;944336]We were talking about the single ended staff form. Thats all:D[/QUOTe

Sorry. That's one must have come out in my long hiatus. To further demonstrate my ignorance: what is a single ended staff? And while you're at it, who first taught it, and when, if I may ask?

[Facepalm]

The single ended staff or white waxwood staff or kuen is just a spear shaft without the spear head.

I guess its like beginner spear for brown belts

[Facepalm]

You can also use the skinny end more like a staff whereas with a spear head you might break it off if say you wacked at somebodies foot and missed.

Your supposed to sharpen the skinny end though so you can stab with it

[goju]

I would say you probably can’t defend yourself properly from a side you feel "uncomfortable" with. You can only attack your opponents weak side if they train in a similar method that you do... dominant side forward. This would make their left side which is naturally more uncoordinated their weak side because they never train it.

Now, you may get lucky against the average Joe or a lesser experience fighter but if you're lucky enough to cross hands with someone who knows what they are doing... you're gonna get picked apart. You don't have to be psychic either because here is how it would go down. They're gonna start tagging that lead leg and if you're a good fighter you'll check it... but I'm betting you won't. So eventually that lead leg starts to hurt and your body's natural reaction is to pull it back to protect it. Your opponent will likely notice and come in with a few combos to test the waters. When you start flailing that left hand around trying to block his attacks...... he'll know he's got your number ;)
no like i said the majority of people including fighters martial artist etc etc are right handed and they keep there right back and their left forward exposing their weak side
if you stay on that side you cant take them apart easier its actually an old boxing technique you never circle into your opponent power hand
oh lord here we go with another guy who thinks he knows somethingthere is no way to know wether your opponent has his power side forward or back however most peopel fight with their power hand back. youd be suprised the wierd look you get in boxing gyms when you say your a right handed southpaw

in fact one of the guys here sparred with me with my power side forward and i wasnt picked apart

[goju]

Hey, we agree on something! I love you goju....one armed- man hug.
LOL BOUT TIME!!
your semi normal ill give you that jk

[goju]

Lmao!!!

No Sh!t.

Unbelievable.:rolleyes::eek:;)

Lets see guys who have doing it under ten years combined or guys that have been doing it for over 60 yrs combined....HMMMM?:D
yeah but thats sixty years of doing it wrong combined with ten years of doing it right lol

[goju]

and i feel uncomfortable stance wise i my left hand and leg is only slightly weaker than the right
and and for you theory to work they have to be able to hit me first

i dont check kicks being that i beleive thats a stupid thing to do
i jam or move out of the way usually the latter goju ryus elusive we dont meet force with force as a thai boxer would check a kick we move out of kicking range in fact thats what tai sabaki(body evasion) is for :)

[shen ku]

i have always been taught the "kaw" on the birds,,,, one of my teachers was out from under master green and the other was stright from GMS.....

[shen ku]

oh and i have been doing the "kaw" since 1986 or 1987?

[Judge Pen]

I know that several forms have sounds included in them. My current teacher doesn't emphasize them. My first teacher taught them (but not on Lou Tien).

I wonder how common animal sounds in forms is in other Chinese (or Indonesian blended Chinese) martial arts?

[One student]

Are you referring to "Se Pa Kun" the 4/8 Staff form taught in 2nd to 1st brown?

Circa 1974-75 MH showed/taught/?? EML & EMS the 3 SL Birds on the farm.
the sound he used sounded like " Kaaaaaaaaaaaaa. (almost like an eagle screaming as it would swoop down on its prey) ie Decend from Heaven. Sometimes MH would refer to the form as a Giant Eagle attack frm the sky

Just my $ 0.02 IMHO
OTD

On my set of notes GMS gave out when they first taught out Se Pa Kuen and Hai Loong Chang, he drew a "rough" picture of the staff intended for Se Pa Kuen, and it did taper. Can't really remember though it being referred to as a "single ended staff" though. But that was 20 years ago. I've always done it with a regular bo anyway. Still not remembering any reverse bow "na" postions, although some forward bow, side bow (?), cross leg, and even loose "sparring stance" na's. Like we said, things do seem to evolve, right or wrong, depending on the teacher -- and one's own memory.

Vaguely remembering when Birds first taught, to the "public," maybe an "optional," kind of like "you can do this here if you want" kind of thing, on the sound. And I guess it would be a "kaw" rather than a squawk (like Liu Hsing?).

Funny how discussion brings back forgotten memories.

[One student]

i have always been taught the "kaw" on the birds,,,, one of my teachers was out from under master green and the other was stright from GMS.....

I also was with M Green when Birds taught out, and I got them directly from MHT, worked with him (MBG) in and out of his class with them. I was also teaching my own class when they first became part of the mandatory rank advancement material. No sounds included. Must have been 83-86, when I had my school. Also have tape made in mid 80's, EML demo'ing Birds. No sounds. As opposed to Hsing Ie Linking Form, with "laughing/taunting" sound, on same tape. I'm really curious as to how that got started (and where I missed it).

[tattooedmonk]

Are these notes in Chinese with the English translation, like what is given out at the seminars now??

[kwaichang]

Off the sub, Look at WuDang Leg Skill at You tube tell me what you think KC

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPHyD-8opnY

[kwaichang]

Yes notice in the end how he blocks down like in Short form 1-30 ??? Looks like a Kara-te block sort of I can see why people who see 1-30 think it is Karate and not chinese MA. KC

[kwaichang]

See this. Whew

[tattooedmonk]

Yes notice in the end how he blocks down like in Short form 1-30 ??? Looks like a Kara-te block sort of I can see why people who see 1-30 think it is Karate and not chinese MA. KC Yes I did.;):cool:

[tattooedmonk]

See this. Whew She is Hot as H-ell!! I Dig it!!

[kwaichang]

she will be mine soon I will have her KC But I like Black

[tattooedmonk]

she will be mine soon I will have her KC But I like BlackSWEET!!! Once you go black you never go back!!:p:eek::D:cool:

[goju]

cough cough ****s ****s cough

[sean_stonehart]

Off the sub, Look at WuDang Leg Skill at You tube tell me what you think KC

Taekwondo/Wushu

[kwaichang]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

[One student]

Are these notes in Chinese with the English translation, like what is given out at the seminars now??

YES, CHinese with translation; but I only have for the fist spear form. I understand there is/was a set for the second, and I never heard of any for the third or fourth. And someone went to the trouble of typing GMS's writing, so there is both.

[One student]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

I don't care what he does, I'd be happy to kick, sweep, and jump like that. I say sign him up for Hua.

[goju]

taekwondo always had karate in it kc

[kwaichang]

Modern TKD as developed by Choi has Shotokan that is why the styles are so similar, The older ones like Chung do Kwan and Tang Soo Do and other temple arts were based upon Tae Gyun KC

[kwaichang]

David Carradine, Farrah Fawcet, Ed Mc Mahon, Michael Jackson , and now Billy Mays. Who;s next? KC

[sean_stonehart]

Wushuers dont hit pads like that I say they can fight , BTW TKD as prac today is is a mish mash of Japanese Karate and weastern boxing with Korean Kicks KC

Actually TKD today is a Korean distillation of viable martial arts it based on... Shotokan to the larger extent & Shorin-ryu to a lesser. I spent my first 15 years in the MA learning & teaching it as well as teaching it recently.

The current Kukkiwon connected TKD isn't much more than foot tagging, hard, but foot tagging. There's been no definative proof of Tae Kyon actually being a formative base other than Choi's word on it's connection. All of the heads of the six original kwons have no indigenous KMA in them. Most or all were JMA trained & belted.

But TKD history aside... that's what the guy kicks like. It's like the TKD they teach in Dengfeng.

[Yao Sing]

David Carradine, Farrah Fawcet, Ed Mc Mahon, Michael Jackson , and now Billy Mays. Who;s next? KC

Don't forget Shek Kin, I think he started the recent celebrity death trend.

[kwaichang]

Right all within 2 weeks. It is my understanding that TKD taught is as you say a distillation but Choi supposedly got training from Funikoshi KC

[goju]

well a genawakai karate dojo is near my place dont knw how long its been around but gonna go check it out see if i can train with some other karateka

[sean_stonehart]

Don't forget Shek Kin, I think he started the recent celebrity death trend.

You're right... it was SK that did.

[sean_stonehart]

Right all within 2 weeks. It is my understanding that TKD taught is as you say a distillation but Choi supposedly got training from Funikoshi KC

Oh, Choi did train Shotokan with Funakoshi & earned a nidan from him. Once Choi was kicked out of South Korean TKD, the Kukkiwon started coming up with the new forms (Palgwe, Taeguk, Chong-ahn [I think that's the name]) to replace the Kibon, Hyung-ahn/Pyung-ahn forms which are direct translations of Taikyoku and Heian/Pinan forms. The named forms stayed the same. In Tang Soo Do, they still practice those forms & in some of the Kwan schools (Ji Do, Chung Do, etc...) they practice them along side some of the new forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Like reverse bows where they don't belong. It does drive me crazy when people who have no business doing so make their own changes to material taught by someone far more qualified than they are, for no other reason I can think of but ego, to make themselves stand out. Seems kind of arrogant to me.


Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it):D. I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do:D. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL.

[Facepalm]

What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style :rolleyes:
lol
:D
Isnt that easy?:rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it.

The way I see it, if your form doesn't change, you're probably not improving, and you're probably not learning anything. My forms are my forms. Not GM Sin's. Not my teacher's, not his teacher's. They're mine. Static forms are wushu forms. Great forms, no martial sensibility whatsoever. Just like that Wudang guy who was hitting hte bags. I've seen some dudes who can hit bags pretty **** awesome, but couldn't hit another dude unless he was holding the bags...LOL.

I was training some wushu/Longfist from a dude, and he did an introductory bow exactly like Chin kung fu hu chien/Chie Chien, but much smoother. Transitioned from the arms to the hips and left knee raised to a cat ("cat" not stressed at present in SD bow) then slide out to bow stance and pull up to natural with hands chambered at sides--1 very fluid motion. So now my bow in those two forms is the same one I did in wushu, lol. Same movements, better body mechanics. Someone called me out on changing the form, and I was like......ok, whatever. (translation: Train your own stuff, get over it):D. I didn't change the form. I changed, so the form changed. I'm pretty sure forms changed under GM Sin. After training bJJ and a little Judo, you see just how many throws are in the core material--and why it would be helpful to wear a gi if practicing the material by its literal interpretation, since gi's hold up so much better--(but in Shaolin-Tao's defense, gi's do suck for forms, big time).

Nobody ever trains in a style so to speak. You train yourself. You're your own style. I'm not pure SD. I've seen/practiced w/ tons of dudes. So, I'm not a purist by any means in any style. It's always my interpretation, because it's my body. I'm integrating stand up grappling with tai chi. So it's not pure tai chi, but it is remarkably applicable against non-cooperative opponents. My roundhouse has picked up Muay Thai elements, so it's more of a round kick now. Lands 2X as hard, and better for close-in fighting, since my shin nicely fits in most people's ribs---just the right size. If I want to get in close, I use a common hand-to-ear block I picked up in MMA classes. bEtter for what I'm doing. I added that into some of my monkey movements, since it's the same motion wushu monkey dudes use for monkey antics....only, mine is applicable...L"OL.

I'm not someone who thinks a form has to look exactly like the application, even though I think the short forms look exactly like the applications. (4-7 look like foot-sweep throws to me, almost straight out of sanshou/judo or jujitsu). My tai chi took on some of hte C.C. Chen aspects I learned. My footwork improved a lot in the little wushu training I did. SD made my stances freakin' great though....but it's footwork does leave something to be desired, at times. My Chen 18 has a little of the bits of Chen 60 I learned elsewhere. I'm sure some SD "purists" would call me out on that, but ****, man. Who cares? If it works better for me, it works better. Sometimes my forms change a little, but then change back. Sometimes my favorite movements change for the better and become something else--at least in my head they do:D. Nobody has a 100% claim on effectiveness, and SD has plenty of "ineffective theories" IMO. So do most others, by the way.

I mean....come on. There's a one-handed RoadHouse Patrick Swayze "rip out the throat" maneuver in 3rd bird...LOL. From an underhanded snatch, much less.
100% effective from that position....I'm thinking no. 100% untrainable, 100% impractical. I still do the "technique", but seriously...LOL. I agree with most of this but, Since when doesnt pure Tai Chi Chuan have grappling / Chin Na in it??

Its not that SD has ineffective theories in it , it is the individual teachers and students who make SH!T up as they go along!!! I would rather hear someone say "I do not know" rather than some of the stupid @$$ SH!T I have heard people say.

As for the ripping throat application, that is just one of the infinate possibilities Not the most probable or realistic.;):eek::cool::D:D Try it as an underhand snatch of a punch instead or a grab of a piece of clothing or another part of the body.

Funny story......There was this guy who became the instructor /master of one of the schools and he said that his applications was the only one to be taught and that there were basically no other ones besides the ones he said. Most of them were completely impractical and inapplicable against a resisting opponent but because he was an AM 5th BB Everyone followed him blindly and never question his applications.:rolleyes:

I found this funny because his belief was contradictory to the idea that forms, techniques, etc. have multiple applications .

what might work for one person is not going to work for another.

This guy was so full of himself.....

[tattooedmonk]

What you dont think you can snatch someones throut out eagle claw style :rolleyes:
lol
:D
Isnt that easy?:rolleyes:Not really. You have to have really strong hands :D and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.:eek::p;)

[Facepalm]

Not really. You have to have really strong hands :D and be willing to do the stretch( of time in prison) if you did.:eek::p;)

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone

[kwaichang]

!st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC

[tattooedmonk]

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone For the throat rip,Try grabbing a piece of their collar or shirt, underneath a punch etc.

Wrist break and a break/ release technique are two different things.

I know the application you are talking about .

Not very practical and not very applicable.

Think about the range of motion.

When someone grabs your wrist, reach underneath and grab their wrist, twist either clockwise or counter clockwise( depending on which side forward you are ) this should break/ release their grasp, then finish the technique like the sweep , front snap kick, etc.

[tattooedmonk]

!st let me say I agree with TTM and facepalm, but then I dont in some instances, however I also feel to change the form due to your personal desire to do so deviates further from the original intent of the form/move itself. It is like the old thing where 10 people are in a room and by the time the story is passed to the 10th person the story is unrecognisable. So are forms. The tech should be mastered in its purest form then applied in combat under different cicumstances that is how different applications are manifested . I do not think the form shopuld be changed for this reason though KC I do not agree with changing the form just to change the form.

However, if the movement and techniques in the form do not make sense then they need to be change for it to be applicable.

Also , what do you mean by "in it's purest form"??

I have seen Master Sin teach a form multiple ways and they are all supposed to be the "purest" way, how can that be if they are slightly different every time??.

I think the basic structure of the forms is what is meant to be followed ,as a guide. But how you see it and apply the techniques are up to you, as long as it works .

Adding extra flair into the form that wastes energy, is inapplicable and does not follow proper body mechanics , ranges of motion and physics is my biggest issue with teachers and students.

[kwaichang]

I too have seen GMT teach something differently but it is not typically a technique but a single move more often like a palm strike instead of a punch. The mechanics are the same but the outcome different at times. Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do yopu feel the helicopter move is for ??
Also I feel that all movements or tech make sense we just need to dig harder for some than others. KC

[Lucas]

the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.

[One student]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;944732]Disagree 100%. IF you change a form, it's not always ego. Sometimes the application changes the form, sometimes body training changes the form. Sometimes you change a form because what works for some other dude doesn't work as well for you. Sometimes the form changes in your hands and you don't even realize it. END QUOTE

Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wasnt being serious

Another application that I find to be extremely difficult to pull off if at all possible is the bird break. There are also tons and tons of bird breaks in SD lower and brown belt material.

Is there an alternate application to this movement that would be easier to pull off other than full out breaking the wrist?


I need something to visualize and drill that could more easily be done to someone

Yes. I saw a shuai jiao practitioner utilize the same movement (minus the broken-leg stance [his was like a cat stance]) to hook the leg for a sweep. Probably the correct motion, if you ask me. I'm willing to bet ten bucks you could youtube shuai jiao and find it---I was told it was a common throw.

SD has striker-itis. Everything's a strike, I swear. They even add two strikes into CHen 18 on the 180 degree flourish on the last movement of "Jade Maiden Plays with Shuttle." WTF? A Leaping double tap? I'm thinking....no. Even in Yang tai chi. Single whip for instance. My god, you could use it as a strike, but what's the chance you'll land it....LOL. It's a basic throw involving mild grappling. One of the first things I learned outside SD. IF you go learn tai chi elsewhere, you're often introduced to more of its grappling aspects--but the teachers still can't perform it usually unless you step back and then lunge punch...LOL. BTW, TTM, I see chin-na as any stand-up grappling. LOL...I introduced "Chin-na sparring" to some buds of mine. You basically wrestle and look for opportunities to pull off locks. I've gotten a lot better. Pllus, you get to work on your hooks and clinching and take-down defense. There's no striking allowed. Only grappling, sweeping, throwing, wrestling, and locking. When we do push hands at SD, since everyone's into the Tai Chi striking, they get tense, or they don't bother to actually do "push hands". I just do my thing, get "lit up" LOL by what I consider bad push-handers, and move on to the next person.

I

If they really wanted to do "push hands" by their reckoning, I'd clinch 'em and knee 'em in the face, throw 'em, throw a bomb overhand right, or kick the **** out of their lead leg. Not everyone in SD does bad "push hands", but there are quite a few that do.....and I mean quite a few. But if you can get over it, and get "beaten" without taking it personally, it's not so bad. You just know who you can't learn **** from concerning tai chi applications. The good push-hands guys can light you up even as they set up their throws. There's a few of 'em around ATL that can.

I think, when people who don't like to spar or experiment on classmates are trying to rationalize something in SD, their default answer is "strike!". LOL....it's almost always wrong.

[Baqualin]

the shaolin that i practice is some pretty old material. over all the years these routines have been around, you can be sure the sets have been modified and updated accordingly.

with that said i have two ways i perform my sets. one way, the way that i show to others who want me to show a form, or if i were to teach the set to someone, is the way i was taught by my teacher, the way his teacher taught him and so on back into history, the traditional representation of the style and its routines.

then there is the way i have that is personal to me. the techniques are all there, but the range of motion is slightly tweeked, the depth/hight of the stances are also modified. all of the modifications ive made to my personal set are all based on my modern understanding of combat, the way people fight now, my personal experience, and the way my body likes to move.

it reminds me of something i once heard some shaolin monk or other say, which i wont nail on the head but i remember the message, essentially;

the essence of shaolin boxing is adaptability. to be able to adapt to your environment and to use what is available to succeed. this means that a shaolin boxers martial arts will be influenced by his surrounding area. the martial arts in his region, the cultural aspects, the regional crime and violence, etc. all come into play when we are developing ourselves as martial artists.

my version is much more wordy to be sure, but its the same message.

this is a huge aspect as to why people will change forms. usually though when someone does that, they will retain a 'pure' version of their form. pure being used in the sense that this was the way the form was passed onto them by their teachers, and will be retained with the goal of passing on the same material in the same fashion. minor details here and there will always be adjusted from person to person, but roughly the form will preserved be the same to pass on the way it was recieved.

BINGO:cool: Well said!!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then in all those cases, you are not doing "the" form, but something else. That is different. A key in your comment is the "not always" ego. I have heard tales of teachers who learn the material, and then immediately change something in it so it is "theirs." I'll agree with you to the extent that the teacher is not attempting to portray what he/she is teaching as what they were taught, as opposed to "this is my form." Isn't that exactly one of the many rumor-based criticisms of SD?

I wasn't trying to suggest someone can't practice their stuff their way. I know lots of people who have made up their own "routine," a form of sorts, to practice techniques in rhythym and succession the way they like. One might even change a move here or there, because they can't do the right one the way it should be (at the time). But they don't pass it off to others as being anything other than that. Nor have they taken material taught by one with decades of original training in TMA, and in a short time "improve" it by themselves. In many cases if the choice is between the material as taught by GM X, or as taught by student of GM X, modified by them, I think there is a distinction worth noting, and worth knowing. Sure, some students get to the point of earning the right to do that, but I would go so far as to call it a selective few.

And there is also a difference when the form as "options" -- you can do it this way, or that. According to one with the authority and credibility to make that decision.

And I'll agree to the extent, sometimes there is a reason, other than ego. Sometimes not.

I've commented before, when someone starts questioning the quality of what they are being taught, including to the extent of changing it on their own, thinking they can do it better "this way," time to get a new teacher.


Sure. I do think forms should be taught standard. When I help out lower belts, I show them the standard routine. IF they ask why I don't do the standard routine exactly when I practice, I say--because I'm not doing "standard routines." LOL.

[tattooedmonk]

I agree with your statement about many of the practitioners of SD having Strikeritis.

I LOVE Chin Na, ever since I started learning and breaking down forms I have found so many grabs, throws, and takedowns within the material ,just like you have.

It is amazing how much you can find if you look deep inside the material . You just have to have and open mind, follow through specific ranges of motion and utilize proper body mechanics.

It is that simple.

The internal arts alone have so much grappling in them. I have barely scratched the surface. The other day I found a grappling /takedown move in Snake Creeps Down the Vine.

[tattooedmonk]

Lets talk about a technique for example the spinning technique to one knee in Tai Pang Sin Kune (sp) ?, anyway what do you feel the helicopter move is for ?? KC I see it as a grappling/ throw /takedown technique.

[Shaolin Wookie]

FACEPALM...I just realilzed you were writing "bird break" rather than bird "beak". Are you talking about the standing arm break catches from "Tai Peng Sin Kune"?

If so, deflect a punch (if you're doing the tech. exactly like in form, w/ crossover step to the left, with right leg in front, it'll have to be a left handed punch) kind of like technique 1, but rather than controlling the shoulder, rotate off of the lower bicep or elbow while pulling back with the wrist. If you land it correctly, you've got a standing armbar (chin-na 12) while kneeling, with the exposed elbow poised for a nasty break, using your knee as a chopping block and your right forearm as the takedown/break striking surface. Of course, the point is to drive the arm down to your knee mid-rotation, so you get leverage. Can be done, but not so much from a striking reaction, so much as grappling for holds. One of my fav's....also present in Fei Hu Chu Tung, in the Shaolin-Tao schools, if you choose to stress that particular app.

As for the arm-break catch application.....kind of retarded in my opinion. Too risky and you can't really practice it.

[Facepalm]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys :D

[tattooedmonk]

Thanks for an explanation of those moves from "great bird spreads its wings" But what I was referring to is lohan#18 specifically.

I get that they just grabbed your arm but it seems like it would be really difficult to twist their arm and break it in this way. I was wondering if this movement could be interpreted in other useful ways.

Thanks alot guys :Dpost 11665.....

[Facepalm]

Cool I must have missed it thanks TTM:D:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Facepalm...



Short form 18 begins with the mini chin-na of reversing the grip, but the rest of the short form is actually the exact same as #4--a front sweep. The point isn't to break the arm---do something you can actually practice in class with regularity. Use the straightened-out arm for leverage. Keep his face away from his shoulder with the flourish (your extended right arm)--this keeps him from retaining his balance. (this is also the point of sparring tech #10 IMO, but that's another story).

I've had people tell me you can't practice this sweep safely, but it's really a common sanshou throw. I've been tinkering with it for a while now.

If you're practicing #4 with a partner, or even just as a form, really thrust your right hand across your body---you're looking for leverage by getting it to the opposite side of the opponent's neck (since you're left-side forward, you're trying to get your right elbow close to the right side (his right) of his jaw. When you rotate your hip and sweep, try to touch his head to your right hip. Sometimes this is enough to get him to the floor or stumbling off to the corner (LOL sidedkick 'em while he's unbalanced). The other arm secures a hook or just assists the throw by pushing on the right side of the opponent (I prefer a hook, since you retain control of an arm when he falls). If you rotate your waist, this throw is safe and easy. You can even transition to a frontside headlock and do a one-legged squat, throw over your shoulder type throw, and finish with a Tang lang back roll to secure a mounted frontside headlock---but that's a different throw, kind of. You don't even have to really "kick up" underneath your sweep. You just have to make sure you catch his right leg as you rotate and extend your right foot and then lift slightly. You can even take both legs if your opponent's your size, for a nasty takedown.

If you're doing #18, it's a half sweep, but it's still the same sweep and it gets the same effect. I prefer the full sweep, but a half sweep can do the trick. Sometimes the half sweep is better for both legs since you retain a better base--but you really have to rotate your hip on it.

If you're practicing with a partner, just have him perform a forward left shoulder roll for his own protection. If he doesn't roll, he lands face down at your feet. If you've got an arm, you can press down with your foot on his shoulder blade and crank his arm 'till he taps.

this is one of my favorite throws, and yes...you can do it safely. Not exactly the way I was taught the app...but it's the one that works, and you don't have to change anything in the motion.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Edit to above:

By "hook with your other arm" above, I meant: secure a lazy underhook. If you hook him too tightly, you'll actually hold him up---thus defeating the purpose of the sweep.

When you get good at this one, practice where your opponent steps forward on the front sweep (over your foot), but keeps his balance. Then transition to a backsweep a la #7. These are really great sweeps and combinations. But for the transition to #7, definately go for both legs, and use your right hand to press forward/down on your opponents chest. You should end up with control of his right arm (but only if you switch to an overhook with your left arm before the sweep). Then it's time to practice your armbar submissions---a kneeling figure 4 or transition to an armbar the ground...LOL.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The best way to train your frontsweep is to have your opponent take a right lead stance (you stand your left-shoulder-to-his-right-shoulder with him), then reach across his chest with your left hand (palm to his chest, thumb to floor, flat--not grabbing, or else you'll be holding him up) and sweep his right leg with your left foot as you try to make a big arcing circle to your left hip with your left hand. It's the same sweep, done from a different side. But it's good if you're not good at your sweeps, because there's less chance of tweaking out someone's knee.

Same as # 4, though. You can do this sweep with the position in #18, but it requires a little tweaking on your part, since you'll be half-sweeping with your other leg. The main keys to it are--don't grab, use leverage, always pull with your elbows and arms straight, and pull them to your hips as you rotate.

Makes your sweeps nasty.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm trying to get some people to help me video some of these throws myself. Not for ego---but I find most new students don't have any desire to practice short forms, mostly because they don't get them. But if they did understand them, they'd probably practice them all the time, and with a partner...LOL! Until then, there are some close paralells in the following vids I just found:

1. 1:00 in--- (elbow blocking #4, more or less). He's using his right for an underhook rather than for leverage. He's also using gi grabs for holds. SD's "holds" depend on leverage, since you don't always have a gi on or a grab like that available (at least, we don't have gi's in SL-Tao). SD requires body rotation and maximized hip rotation. So take that into consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPpBSn_F_wM

2. 21 seconds in--Lian Wu Zhang's backsweep. The guy in this vid does it pretty lazily IMO, and relies more on a jujitsu base. But if you make your "triangle" hold around his neck tighter, you don't have to pick up your back leg on the sweep. You just backsweep and pull forward with your arms. I like this one, because you can do it when you lock up with your opponent and start grappling hard. You can try for a triangle choke and sweep, or do it with an underhook and an overhook/wrestler hold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FFP6AWvxEA&feature=related

3. This is a cool demo I just found. shows form/throw and likeness/differences between them. This is almost like the Shaolin Bird throw I was talking about to Facepalm. Throw begins about 50 seconds in. Guy ends in a bow stance. THe version I saw pulled back into a cat stance. This guy's looks like it would have more power though. Notice how the hands make the same bird circle, more or less. (However, I think we rotate the other way, if I'm not mistaken). I'd have to play with this one a little more to figure out how to describe it. (Our verson, not hte vid's)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLe0V6U3fU&feature=related

Later....

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL...what's funny is I've never practiced/studied at a chinese martial arts school where they'll teach you these freakin' devastating and useful techniques as the very first thing you learn. Ususally you get retarded, one-step ippon-like sequences alone, which are somehow more "Chinese" than ours--probably because they're less useful :eek:. Unfortunately, depending on your teacher, you just might not get the most useful application from the short forms in SD. The teacher from my school frequently teaches takedowns, throwing, sweeping, and ground fighting workshops, but interest is often limited. I don't think people get just how integrated those elements are in the core material.

You've got to get a classmate, or a lower belt--who can't say no if you say: "dude, get over here. You're going to be my guinea pig." LOL.....and then throw them around, and trade off.

I didn't get the best techs at first, when I asked or when they were shown to me, b/c nobody really showed me on a short-form to application basis (that is, the apps as I now understand them). I was often in the school (it's a 7 day a week school, pretty much--that's pretty rare), so I wasn't always under the head master's instruction. Over time the short forms made more sense--a lot more sense than some of the techs some other blackbelts showed me when I was a lower belt. Hopefully I can pass some of my apps and training methods on. Doesn't disrupt the teaching flow, but it might make it more fight-applicable.

Nothing against KAT...I like some of the striking/take-down applications, but they're not always utilizing the short forms for maximum efficiency against a resisting opponent.....and many start from a gi grab--which is not fight-applicable exactly.

It's the throws and sweeps. # 4, 7, 18, etc. are definately not Tan Tui or Lohan, IMO. They're short forms taken from an art like shuai jiao or something, or just basic throwing/sweeping techs that are 100% effective. I guess that's why most arts outside of "Shaolin-certified" contemporary/fake-traditional wushu have them...LOL.

[arinathos.valin]

Hey gang...

Gonna throw in my two cents regarding changing forms...

In my opinion, forms were a way for people to try to communicate core concepts of the art to students in an era where there was no video and literacy rates were low. In each of the forms are principles of movement that should be understood, and most importantly, internalized.

Forms are, to a certain extent, based on the founders' strengths and abilities. The inventor of the form found that certain ways of movement worked for him/her in a fighting situation. The form is a way of cataloging how to apply those moves and the body mechanics and principles of movement underlying those applications. However, not everyone has the same strengths and abilities and body habitus of the originator of the form. If one's body or limitations of movement would make the original application ineffective, it is next to useless for that individual to continue trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, so to speak. Changing the form in subtle but significant ways, may help the practitioner do the application effectively, OR may help them find a completely new application for that move.

The founder of the form already had the benefit of having internalized the principles of movement that the form entails. They already knew how the move worked. We, on the other hand, are trying to get our bodies to learn what the form originator already had. One of the main problems I found with strong emphasis on forms is that one can find really cool applications for just about any movement until the cows come home... but if those principles of movement are not internalized, they will be completely ineffective in an actual situation. I think we're all familiar with the "brown belt syndrome" where a student who has so many cool new applications in their head can't think of the right one to use, and then gets popped in the head with a simple straight jab. Real fighting situations, and even sparring situations, can be wild, unpredictable, and chaotic. Watch the people sparring at the next tournament. Some of them will have entered in forms competition and done remarkable, beautiful katas... but when it comes time to use it in sparring... they're not using those moves! It's usually a jump around punch punch kick affair, and doesn't look a thing like the form they were just doing.

IMHO, forms training can be demanding, aesthetically pleasing, and can transmit important information to make someone a better fighter. However, I think that a slavish devotion to the form itself is like mistaking the finger for the moon, so to speak. The important thing is the underlying principles the form is trying to teach, rather than the form itself. It's kind of like copying Shakespeare. One can practice their penmanship/ calligraphy, and memorize long sonnets, but ultimately, if you make a beautiful handwritten copy of Romeo and Juliet, you have just that... a copy. I think that a true master will take those words and letters, and phrasing that he's learned from studying, and create something new... based on their own experiences and knowledge.

[tattooedmonk]

:cool::D You must have this stored / saved so that anytime the subject of forms comes up all you have to do is pop this in!?.:D:cool:

[arinathos.valin]

LOL! Actually, some of this stuff has been circulating in my head for a while, and this topic just gave me the opportunity to put some of these ideas on paper, so to speak.

I hope it sounded good, at least... ;)

[kwaichang]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KC

[tattooedmonk]

Long Tasseled Sword on you tube I like it KCwhich one??

[Facepalm]

So Elder Master David sometimes talks about the China trips that they take with students every few years.

He will often say that a student will ask him:

"omg what if the plane that you GMSKT and EMSS and the rest of the high level students from CSC crashes, omg wont the art be lost"

Then he goes on to talk about how GMSKTs is focused on preservation of the art first and foremost without even giving any mention to the existence of the whole east coast shaolin-do organization or their elder masters (i.e his contemporaries in the art)

I mean I know these peoples names for crying out loud but I feel it would be rude to raise my hand and ask him about this infront of the class.

Did the Soards have a falling out with them, or what, or is he just trying to make himself seem more special to the students, or do I really not want to know the answer to this question.

[tattooedmonk]

So Elder Master David sometimes talks about the China trips that they take with students every few years.

He will often say that a student will ask him:

"omg what if the plane that you GMSKT and EMSS and the rest of the high level students from CSC crashes, omg wont the art be lost"

Then he goes on to talk about how GMSKTs is focused on preservation of the art first and foremost without even giving any mention to the existence of the whole east coast shaolin-do organization or their elder masters (i.e his contemporaries in the art)

I mean I know these peoples names for crying out loud but I feel it would be rude to raise my hand and ask him about this infront of the class.

Did the Soards have a falling out with them, or what, or is he just trying to make himself seem more special to the students, or do I really not want to know the answer to this question.Yes, they did have a falling out , yes ,he is making himself seem more special and yes, you do not want to know.:D

[kwaichang]

Its all a big rotten Political Mess. Reminds me of other styles and systems of the past it really SUCKS, people who dont care about the art are in charge and its all a vieing for power and position KC

[OldandUsed]

That is true and it is one of the major reasons I left after being in the SD for quite a while. I remember the John Fernandez deal and thought it was pretty bad. Little did I know that the same scenario would play out several more times before I had enough. The funny/sad thing is that some of the worst offendors are the ones that preach honor and respect and the martial way. Hmmmm.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I would hope that once the people with issues/schism-hangups are out of the picture, the art would come together again. The material between SD and ST isn't that different. Some different interpretations of movements, some cosmetic changes--but it's the same stuff, built on the same principles.

I wonder why martial arts in general are so privy to lineage quarrels and general squabbles anyways.........

It's like a friggin' soap opera.:rolleyes:

I get the feeling, though, it'll become more schismatic. W/O GM The' certifying the black belts himself, it'll be up to individual masters to do that, unless there's another open-minded dude like GM The' that takes over and is willing to travel/test students with slightly different forms. I imagine that with school/branch rifts as they are, some masters will be spitting fire. Not all. There are a lot of cool masters from other branches out there. But some might.

With all the criticism out there about SD, I find--quite ironically--that the meanest, most conniving critics are actual SD practitioners. Just look on Youtube, and read SD comments. Or read comments by SD dudes here on video performances. Most people who share the practices of an art they have a passion for by posting vids get ripped apart by SD practitioners.

There's rarely a ===
"Good job. Keep up the practice."

It's almost always===

"Dude, you have no understanding of your material. You need to practice before you try to represent the art. You don't deserve your belt." OR some **** like that.

I find that very, very, very sad. Where's the love?

People hide behind their own hangups, cast invective against those without hangups, and inevitably destroy any sense of community there could be between branches, etc.

So sad.

[Baqualin]

Old & used, Golden Tiger, OTD, BQ (if I left any old timers out sorry) are the only ones that participate on this forum that really know what has happened down through the years and what's going on now. We were all here before David & Sharon and most of the rest. Nothing is going to change and will only get worse after GMS passes on....best thing to do is get the most out of your training and forget the political BS....there's nothing anyone can do about it now. GMS has tried to keep things standardized from the beginning including the name....it didn't happen....everyone wants to go out and do their own thing (only a small part of what has happened) and it has gotten to big to control. The only ones who suffer are the students. Things to keep in mind, most of the Main Masters east & west (including David & Sharon) were students of GMS & the elder masters of the east..... they were taught here in Lexington. The other.....GM Sin knows who his most loyal students are and they benefit from it....straight from his mouth not hearsay..
Best

JUST KEEP TRAINING AND LEARN ALL YOU CAN....FUK THE REST:cool:

[Baqualin]

I would hope that once the people with issues/schism-hangups are out of the picture, the art would come together again. The material between SD and ST isn't that different. Some different interpretations of movements, some cosmetic changes--but it's the same stuff, built on the same principles.

well said...if their following those principals

I wonder why martial arts in general are so privy to lineage quarrels and general squabbles anyways.........

It's like a friggin' soap opera.:rolleyes:

I get the feeling, though, it'll become more schismatic. W/O GM The' certifying the black belts himself, it'll be up to individual masters to do that, unless there's another open-minded dude like GM The' that takes over and is willing to travel/test students with slightly different forms. I imagine that with school/branch rifts as they are, some masters will be spitting fire. Not all. There are a lot of cool masters from other branches out there. But some might.

With all the criticism out there about SD, I find--quite ironically--that the meanest, most conniving critics are actual SD practitioners. Just look on Youtube, and read SD comments. Or read comments by SD dudes here on video performances. Most people who share the practices of an art they have a passion for by posting vids get ripped apart by SD practitioners.

True to an extent....but when I see someone in our lineage ( On the master level) doing a form such as our first Pa kua and their not displaying the basic principals of that style....I will say so.

There's rarely a ===
"Good job. Keep up the practice."

JP's videos have always gotten praise....even from outsiders

It's almost always===

"Dude, you have no understanding of your material. You need to practice before you try to represent the art. You don't deserve your belt." OR some **** like that.

Haven't really seen that on here...maybe on Utube....but really, the majority of the students AT ANY SCHOOL aren't very good and the really good ones don't post anywhere...their too busy working out:)

I find that very, very, very sad. Where's the love?

I totally agree with you here...instead of cutting them down they should send them a personal message and tell them to pull the video till they can do it the proper way....offer help of course:D

People hide behind their own hangups, cast invective against those without hangups, and inevitably destroy any sense of community there could be between branches, etc.

So sad.

very sad!! egos will do that to you

[OldandUsed]

I agree with that. The martial arts are supposed to be something for personal development and protection. Not to stroke an ego. It has been my unfortunate experience that way too much ego is demonstrated by many of the "masters" in the system. While I freely admit to personality conflicts and philosophical differences with some of the first 108, I will always hold SD as my primary art and I love the benfit I received from it. I try to pass on the best and allow the student to make their own mind up on how they will use it. I consider it personal as you practice it to the point that you can make it a part of you. Regardless of whether you stay in the "club" or not, it is still yours.

GMS gave those of us that got our BB from 1-108 his Shaolin hero patch. This was supposed to be after the 108 primary forms of the temple.

[tattooedmonk]

would you say from an unbiased perspective that there is ego coming from all sides and not just oneside over the others???

I have seen alot of disloyalty, disrespect and dishonor from many of the instructors.

I see that in alot of ways things have become too rigid and in others too flexible.

[tattooedmonk]

Old & used, Golden Tiger, OTD, BQ (if I left any old timers out sorry) are the only ones that participate on this forum that really know what has happened down through the years and what's going on now. We were all here before David & Sharon and most of the rest. Nothing is going to change and will only get worse after GMS passes on....best thing to do is get the most out of your training and forget the political BS....there's nothing anyone can do about it now. GMS has tried to keep things standardized from the beginning including the name....it didn't happen....everyone wants to go out and do their own thing (only a small part of what has happened) and it has gotten to big to control. The only ones who suffer are the students. Things to keep in mind, most of the Main Masters east & west (including David & Sharon) were students of GMS & the elder masters of the east..... they were taught here in Lexington. The other.....GM Sin knows who his most loyal students are and they benefit from it....straight from his mouth not hearsay..
Best

JUST KEEP TRAINING AND LEARN ALL YOU CAN....FUK THE REST:cool: From what I know about the situation, this is correct.

Individual school names is ok in my opinion, what do you think?

I believe the art speaks for itself, a name is just a name.

SD/ ST is the same thing. This is just symantics and really is non intrinsic to the art.

The art has to evolve to become valid in this day and age.

It seems that some changes like the name ST instead of SD, changing the uniforms to a chinese version, etc. can benefit the art.

As you can see among the schools run by Master Nance, Master Mullins and Master Grooms it has.

I understand the loyalty, honor and respect to the traditions passed on by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin but, if it wasnt alright with Master Sin why would he approve of these changes?? And why should anyone else be upsetabout these changes?

Change is a part of life.........

[OldandUsed]

Absolutely!

[kwaichang]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KC

[Baqualin]

would you say from an unbiased perspective that there is ego coming from all sides and not just oneside over the others???

I have seen alot of disloyalty, disrespect and dishonor from many of the instructors.

I see that in alot of ways things have become too rigid and in others too flexible.

yes..............................:)

[Baqualin]

From what I know about the situation, this is correct.

Individual school names is ok in my opinion, what do you think?

I believe the art speaks for itself, a name is just a name.

SD/ ST is the same thing. This is just symantics and really is non intrinsic to the art.

The art has to evolve to become valid in this day and age.

It seems that some changes like the name ST instead of SD, changing the uniforms to a chinese version, etc. can benefit the art.

As you can see among the schools run by Master Nance, Master Mullins and Master Grooms it has.

I understand the loyalty, honor and respect to the traditions passed on by Ie Chang Ming and Master Sin but, if it wasnt alright with Master Sin why would he approve of these changes?? And why should anyone else be upsetabout these changes?

Change is a part of life.........

If you've ever been a parent of multiple children........sometimes after they cry, complain, make excuses, throw fits....you finally say fuk it and let them have their way. This part has been all about marketing...not what GMS wants...it's his art not mine.....personally I don't like silk pajamas.....I only teach Internal so I do wear a sam....it's heavy cotton not silk and I wear my original uniform just as much....I like the way it feels......he went for the sams to show separation between External & Internal. In my opinion (for what that's worth:D) I don't give a fuk what uniform he wants me to wear....I only care about the art. If your not capable of marketing the art itself then wtf is a uniform or name going to do for you....we are not Chinese ( they don't even have uniforms) and our art came out of Indonesia not China. If your proud of your art why would you want to change the name or uniforms

[tattooedmonk]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KCDont hold back KC, tell us how you really feel!!!:eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

yes..............................:)Thanks......... .....:)

[Baqualin]

It is when these changes get in the way of the sytem and training itself that it is a problem. For ex: you cant train here unless you wear this uniform, or you cant teach in this state because you cant or dont train with this instructor. If you do this form different in say Georgia than in Nevada you cant teach. How will i MAKE MONEY FROM YOUR SCHOOL IF YOU PAY HOMAGE TO LEXINGTON AND WANT TO TEACH IN SAY GEORGIA. THIS IS WHERE THE CHANGE AS IT IS CALLED IS NOT A GOOD THING. THERE ARE THOSE THAT HAVE TRAINED IN MANY AREAS AND WANT TO TRAIN BUT CANT OPEN A SCHOOL OR TRAIN WITH THE PEOPLE 1 -2 MILES FROM THEIR HOUSE DUE TO THE CR@@ or disagreements this splits the system itself. I cant train with a guy I have known for 10 years because an EM doesnt want me to . This has nothing to do with the Shaolin or MA ethic at all. More a lack of ethic Sorry for the caps. KC

I know about your situation well KC and understand where your coming from.....the teaching Terr. was set up to protect teachers working an area and you happen to be in an area that's already been locked up for a while.....as far as the training part that's another story....I see where your coming from....but you also know the circumstances involved......also keep in mine that the doors of your school are open to any of GMS students from anywhere....also if you want to work out with someone keep it to yourself...your time is your time and no one has the right to tell you who to be friends with. Your also lucky.......knowing your teacher, you have the original way things have been taught for over 40 years and GMS has made no significant changes regardless of what people say.....he told me himself (I will not mention names) that he teaches certain people things and the next time he sees them they are not doing it the way he showed them.....now there are a few forms that have been taught slightly different at other schools and when I ask him I was told to listen to my teacher, because he has the most details.
BQ