Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[OTD]

peace&love
The Lo Han Chien as you know it is not the complete form.
Think about the beginning and ending ....they are not
symetrical..To do the complete form do the following:
After your known ending repeat the form again as a mirror
image (going to your right side)of the part you already know.
This time at the end repeat the opening breathing sequence.
Now you have the entire form!!! Try filming yourself as you
try this, it will be a real eye opener to you as you attempt to
put it to gether. At any gathering/Tournament/demo it opens
the eyes of the"old-tymers" who have done this in the past.
If done correctly, you should wind up with-in a foot or so of
where you started.

OTD

[bodhi warrior]

Wouldn't this be true of all the forms? This way both sides get worked evenly.

[OTD]

BW
I suppose so,however, GMS specifically pointed out many many moons
ago that this particular form we did was only half of the entire form. I asked
him one time about the closing , this was when he informed me of the right
mirror side. Maybe some one older than me has more info on the Left/Right
(mirror image) side of other SD forms ???? (That would really be a 'corker' if
all the Hua fists were mirrored, What an endurance test that would be!!!)
OTD

[kwaichang]

I dont think the Hua would apply this way, however does anyone have the sets after Tai Pang Sien Kune of the other Tai Pang Forms ?? I think there are 4 or 6 of them . KC

[bodhi warrior]

I dont think the Hua would apply this way, however does anyone have the sets after Tai Pang Sien Kune of the other Tai Pang Forms ?? I think there are 4 or 6 of them . KC

I have learned the first three, which really make up one form. There are supposed to be 18 of them. But I think the first 6 are really just 2 forms broken up.
But as far as the three I know, they really are basic. The first and third are basically the same form but done on the opposite side. The second one isn't much at all.
Hope that helps.

[tattooedmonk]

SF # 1 a defense against a grab with joint lock' or locks in place or closing then a throw KCThis it the one I like . It is too bad that most people can not see beyond the simple and obvious block and punch. The hidden/ scecret moves are in the range of motion.

[tattooedmonk]

How about Collins and those TITANS!!!!! Looks like the old quarterbacks have something to prove this season and have!!!!

[Judge Pen]

This it the one I like . It is too bad that most people can not see beyond the simple and obvious block and punch. The hidden/ scecret moves are in the range of motion.

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.

[BentMonk]

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.

The application of any movement is going to change based on many factors. The height and weight of the combatants, the ability level of the practitioner, the conflict environment, etc. IMO basic applications are taught in the beginning to start the practitioner thinking about why they're doing the movement. As each person grows as a martial artist, they become less and less concerned with specific applications. Their body begins to move naturally and correctly based on the type of situation they are in. As Bruce Lee said, "I do not hit. It hits all by itself." :D

[Judge Pen]

BW
I suppose so,however, GMS specifically pointed out many many moons
ago that this particular form we did was only half of the entire form. I asked
him one time about the closing , this was when he informed me of the right
mirror side. Maybe some one older than me has more info on the Left/Right
(mirror image) side of other SD forms ???? (That would really be a 'corker' if
all the Hua fists were mirrored, What an endurance test that would be!!!)
OTD

I've not tried to mirror the Huas, but try doing all 4 consecutively with 0 break between them. They really do flow well into one another and you still end up within a couple of feet from the begining of 1 to the end of 4.

[shen ku]

on the two sided thing, does any here have the manite linkage forms, they are that way so maybe it is a system thing to mantis?
i remember the first time i was asked to do lohan on the other both sides, not to brag, but it was in class at the last second me and a training partner were the highest rank in the class, we pulled it off first run with no problem, all the lower rank were like , " what the he77?? " ,, it was fun

[tattooedmonk]

I don't think hidden or secret is the right term because these are not applications that are not taught. Most movements in forms have different applications depending on the distance and type of attack. I don't think that "most" people can't see it, but some people don't always take the time to look at a technique from all perspectives.They are hidden and secret to the ones who do not know them , can not use them or are not aware of them, correct??

I disagree with you about most people seeing them . If most people saw them, knew them or used them you would not see so many people using the application that are obvious and on the surface, making up application that are not really there and / or need a great deal of cooperation to make work.

But I do agree that, if they were taught what it is that they should be looking for and learned how to see things from multiple perspectives they can and should be able to see them.

[Judge Pen]

They are hidden and secret to the ones who do not know them , can not use them or are not aware of them, correct??

I disagree with you about most people seeing them . If most people saw them, knew them or used them you would not see so many people using the application that are obvious and on the surface, making up application that are not really there and / or need a great deal of cooperation to make work.

But I do agree that, if they were taught what it is that they should be looking for and learned how to see things from multiple perspectives they can and should be able to see them.

The best application is the one that works for you. Obvious applications are fine because they deal with obvious situations. Other applications may only work in the most unique of circumstances and, as Paul astutely pointed out, depend on any number of variables.

[BentMonk]

IMO the moves in all MA forms exist simply to reinforce the basics I mentioned concerning short form number one. The internal arts add intent and harnessed energy to this solid foundation.

When someone is in a confrontation they're not going to stop and think, "OK, I'm going to use the second application that I figured out for the first part of the third black tiger." If their fundamentals are sound the reaction will be natural, fluid, and effective.

I'm not saying that looking for specific applications within a form is a bad thing. Anything that adds more than one dimension to some one's thinking is a good thing. I just feel that once movements become truly internalized, the number of possible applications becomes as limitless as the situations a practitioner may encounter. Analysing is a good thing as long as the analysis doesn't limit the scope of your thinking or stifle your instincts. :D

[tattooedmonk]

The best application is the one that works for you. Obvious applications are fine because they deal with obvious situations. Other applications may only work in the most unique of circumstances and, as Paul astutely pointed out, depend on any number of variables. I agree. They can .To me the throw is just as obvious as the block and punch. Doesnt this hold true even for the obvious techniques as well( circumstances and variables)???

[tattooedmonk]

IMO the moves in all MA forms exist simply to reinforce the basics I mentioned concerning short form number one. The internal arts add intent and harnessed energy to this solid foundation.

When someone is in a confrontation they're not going to stop and think, "OK, I'm going to use the second application that I figured out for the first part of the third black tiger." If their fundamentals are sound the reaction will be natural, fluid, and effective.

I'm not saying that looking for specific applications within a form is a bad thing. Anything that adds more than one dimension to some one's thinking is a good thing. I just feel that once movements become truly internalized, the number of possible applications becomes as limitless as the situations a practitioner may encounter. Analysing is a good thing as long as the analysis doesn't limit the scope of your thinking or stifle your instincts. :DI agree.........

[Judge Pen]

I agree. They can .To me the throw is just as obvious as the block and punch. Doesnt this hold true even for the obvious techniques as well( circumstances and variables)???

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.

[MasterKiller]

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.

That's why I prefer to teach principles instead of techniques. A principle can applied 100 different ways and even improvised, whereas a lot of techniques are situation-specific

[Judge Pen]

That's why I prefer to teach principles instead of techniques. A principle can applied 100 different ways and even improvised, whereas a lot of techniques are situation-specific
Techniques should be an e.g. to the teaching of principal and not the other way around. Beginners often digest techniques more quickly at first, but at some point a shift in focus should occur in the instruction.

[tattooedmonk]

It does. The problem is when people try to force one application into circumstances that don't apply.I agree......

[tattooedmonk]

Techniques should be an e.g. to the teaching of principal and not the other way around. Beginners often digest techniques more quickly at first, but at some point a shift in focus should occur in the instruction.
I agree with this too.....I bet you guys did not know I could be so agreeable.

[shen ku]

don't tell me this is going to die? we are so close

[peace&love]

Okay, let me see if I can generate further conversation. Looking at other SD schools across the country, I notice that some schools require internal arts as well as external arts for individual rank advancement. The school I attend is like this, and it is one of the main reasons I chose to study SD. My previous Hung Gar school placed great emphasis on the internal arts as well, therefore, I truly believe the importance of those studies to be a true martial artist. Also, I notice that many SD schools have two separate programs for the internal and external arts for rank advancement. In this case, a student can study either one of the arts or both. Either way, I believe it is good that the internal arts are not being lost, but was curious about how other SD practitioners felt about these two options that are out in the SD world.

[SenseiShellie]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

[shen ku]

there are alot of forms,,,,,,,and no standard videos...
on interenal and exterenal... i like the idea in theory, but i don't offer it that way in my school, i find in my area atleast that most people have a hard time comititng the time to do just one?? so i just stick with the path i was taught ,,,,

[naja]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.

[BentMonk]

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.

SD does have a lot of material. I know your former SD instructor. He is a very talented and respected MA in and out of SD. I think what most people don't realize is that the insurance required for a school to allow contact sparring is very expensive. Also, the majority of people who practice something other than MMA aren't interested in sparring with serious contact. Then you have those who say they want to spar hard, but then get mad when they get tagged. I'm not saying this applies to you. I'm just offering possible reasons why the sparring environment is structured the way it is. I feel safe in saying that you would have experienced greater intensity in sparring at the black belt level...unless we're talking about a different EM Mullins. :D A student of his by the name of Chris Buck went into the cage and won by TKO. I myself have competed in an exhibition full contact match, and won by decision. It's all in how you train in and outside of class IMO. I can work on footwork, timing, etc. doing light to no contact sparring. Then I have classmates who want to train with contact and friends who train MMA. When I want to spar hard I play with them. I also feel that it is better to learn principles of movement, and let continued forms training solidify my existing foundation, rather than focusing on the number of techniques I learn. If my foundation is solid, the situation will show me which technique to use. I will react rather than think. :)

[MasterKiller]

I think what most people don't realize is that the insurance required for a school to allow contact sparring is very expensive. no it isn't. Most regular MA insurance companies, even karateinsurance.com, cover hard contact as long as you use closed-fingered gloves and foot/shin protection.

Now, proper mats and gear are expensive. You should not be figthing hard on puzzle mats, for example. I have a relatively small mat (18' x 18' x 2") and it cost me about $1,000. That's a big investment for a small school.

Then you have those who say they want to spar hard, but then get mad when they get tagged. Even people who come into MMA classes are like this. I've seen a few BJJ guys who didn't mind ripping your arms off while grappling but then complained about hard contact when striking was added.

. I myself have competed in an exhibition full contact match, and won by decision. What were the rules?

It's all in how you train in and outside of class IMO. Right, but a lot of people only have time to train IN CLASS. I think forms classes should be run separate from sparring classes, personally. That way, people who want the art have the opportunity to learn it without fear of hard contact, and people who want fighting methods don't have to waste their time learning patterns that can eat up valuable training time.

[BentMonk]

Greetings MK. I hope all is good with you.

I have no clue what insurance costs. That's just what I've been told. I did know that the mats and gear are not cheap.

My match happened at the '06 Arnold as part of the disabled MA competition. I have always been frustrated by the lack of sparring events for people with disabilities. At the Arnold I met, Ron Mann. He's an amateur MMA fighter and an amputee. He lost his left leg, below the knee in a motorcycle accident. We agreed on full contact strikes, and only ten seconds on the ground. Ron agreed to this because at the time I had zero true ground game. There were four corner judges. They scored one point for a solid strike or a clean ground technique. One 5 minute round.
Ron floored me with a heel thrust right off the bat. I got up and countered with a hard right cross to his chin. There was one instance where Ron could have seriously ground and pounded my a$$, but he was merciful and only tagged me a couple of times. Despite my lack of ground experience I was able to avoid another ground and pound by punching so intensely from the ground that Ron let me up. I was also able to avoid two arm bars by shear upper body strength. As time wound down, the score was 2-2. Ron threw a hard high kick with his prosthetic leg. I was able to block most of it, but the intensity of the blow still stunned me. Ron expected that to finish me. He was not given the point because I was able to block most of the shot and it did not take me off of my feet. The momentum of his kick spun Ron around. As he recovered, expecting to see me on the mat, he instead saw my fist crash into his nose. I was awarded the point, time expired.
I'm not sure that I would have stayed ahead in points if we had gone another round. I also realize that this was not the UFC and Ron's not Randy Couture. I know that under different rules I may not have fared as well. I'm happy with the win because this is the most successful I have been in any competition I have been a part of. I also feel that I proved to myself that the skills I have are effective in a contact situation. SD is where I learned those skills, so I feel my experience adds more validity to SD. Ron said that he had never competed against any other style than MMA. He was impressed by the different angles of attack I was able to utilize, my punching power, my upper body strength, and my conditioning level.
This experience is what motivated me to train with more contact and with people who practiced MMA. If you want to learn to spar hard...spar hard. If you want to survive being hit...get hit, a lot. I'm no bad a$$, but I don't just play tag either. :D
I agree that schools should offer a seperate sparring class, especially if there is a lot of forms work.

[Judge Pen]

Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs? :eek:

Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.


As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.

[MasterKiller]

BM,
sounds like a good experience. Be well.

[naja]

As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.

I was actually referring to another student at this school. I had forgotten that we had discussed this. I think my issue with it is that I would have to learn all the forms to get to that level before getting into contact sparring. I personally would rather tag focus mitts and concentrate on footwork instead of forms.

No worries on it not working out for me. I think I found out rather early that it wasn't my cup of tea, but I stayed because of the friendly atmosphere and people I trained with.

One thing I will say for SD is that I never met anyone above blue sash that had an attitude. Everyone was as nice as possible.

[BentMonk]

BM,
sounds like a good experience. Be well.

It was a blast. Thanks. You too.

[naja]

no it isn't. Most regular MA insurance companies, even karateinsurance.com, cover hard contact as long as you use closed-fingered gloves and foot/shin protection.

This is my understanding as well. Why can the other MA schools in town afford to do it when most of them only have a fraction of the students that this school has? It has to be preference of the teacher. And I have no problem with that, it's their school after all.

Right, but a lot of people only have time to train IN CLASS. I think forms classes should be run separate from sparring classes, personally. That way, people who want the art have the opportunity to learn it without fear of hard contact, and people who want fighting methods don't have to waste their time learning patterns that can eat up valuable training time.

I'm a perfect example of that. I can train some at home, but 90% of my training happens in the school.

And I agree on your teacher method MK, it makes a lot more sense. I bet we would see very few students start out on forms though. I think when most people got in shape they would want to progress to sparring, if even for just a few months.

[Citong Shifu]

Talking about styles that have an overwhelming number of forms. I have a friend that kinda did same as Sin The', meaning, he trained in many kung fu styles (like 12) and combined all the forms, etc into one main style of his own. The problem I see with him, his students, & style is that there is too much brute strength in everything that they do (technique). Of course, this is not all bad, but there's a time and place for this type of force to be applied, especially in CMA. Luckily he's a good friend of mine and didn't take my critism offensively when I brought this to his attention. For the next year he focused on trying to become more natural within his art. He even preached this to his students, but in the end, there was still too much brute stregnth being applied and focused on during execution of there techniques. He called me about 6 months ago and wanted to sit down and discuss some possible solutions or methods to correct this aspect of his style. We met and discussed various things, but in the end it came down to one significant fact, Too many forms! The point was this, too many forms allows one to practice many techniques and repitions, but doesn't allow one to mature in there training principles. Variation is important, but only after one can gain the skill and understanding of the previous. Understanding develops skill, not the other around. When one understands a punch can be horizontal, vertical, up, down, to the side, angular, etc then one doesn't need 10 forms to train 10 different ways of punching, in short. Point is, my friend re-structured his style cut down the number of forms, etc to black sash and placed the other half of the system throughout the black sash levels for members to speacialize in after the core training. His members can choose what they want to specialize in after black sash and receive the appropriate certification. Its been another year since we've sat down and talked shop. He is excited. He himself, as well as, his students have come a long way since our first conversation a year ago. Everyone has started to develop naturally with speed, power, force, hard, soft, etc. There's something to say about this. Its not about all the forms one can learn or pratice, its about developing skill through understanding the blue prints (so to speak).

I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.

You guys have fun and play hard.
CS

[MasterKiller]

I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.

How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?

[Baqualin]

So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...

You can check the SDA website for the list of forms required for each rank......videos are available from some teachers (with permission) to their students after they have completed the class on a particular form....there is no charge for this. When you participate in a seminar, you have the option to purchase a video for that form, which you will receive at the seminar. Having said this I only speak for the way it is at the school here in Lex. Every SD school is controlled by the Instructor who owns the school (within reason).....there are no franchises, but we do have area protection. I guess I better add that I have no idea how they run things out west.....it's CSC not SD.
BQ

[Citong Shifu]

How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?

MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

CS

[MasterKiller]

MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

CS

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Your black sash students only learn 4 or 5 handsets from different systems of your choosing, and that's their curriculum until they get good enough to decide they want others?

You don't teach them complete systems?

[Citong Shifu]

MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

CS

[MasterKiller]

MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

CS

How many hand sets in Tong Bei?

[Citong Shifu]

Our tong Bei Lineage has 4 empty hand sets, 2 two man set, 4 weapons sets and applications. Total= 10

[Judge Pen]

Who is their instructor after they learn the shoalin and tong-bei? After they decide what other styles they wish to learn?

[kwaichang]

Hey JP hows the football team doing KC

[Citong Shifu]

Who is their instructor after they learn the shoalin and tong-bei? After they decide what other styles they wish to learn?

I am! All I was Saying is, our martial art system is not based on an overwhelming amount of forms. My friends art has been reduced to his primary structure as well. There just seems to be more of a benefit with this type of stucture, unless one wishes to practice forms for the collective purpose which has a great cardio benefit.

[shen ku]

anyone have any kinds of problems training in this cold weather coming?

[Baqualin]

anyone have any kinds of problems training in this cold weather coming?

Only if I try to train outside:) Actually, It takes me a little longer to warm up....I also seem more sluggish......I don't know if it's from the cold weather or just getting old:eek:
BQ

I do practice meditation outside (not often) in the snow just to see if I can generate enough energy to stay comfortable.....sometimes I can, sometimes not.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP hows the football team doing KC

Which one? Redskins (ok, but could be better), Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad) Fantasy, 2nd overall, but it's still a tight race to the playoffs.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;896523]Which one? Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad)

The Cats are getting better you know:eek:
BQ

[Judge Pen]

[QUOTE=Judge Pen;896523]Which one? Volunteers (horrible, probably lose to Kentucky this year, so you know its bad)

The Cats are getting better you know:eek:
BQ

That's not hard to get, when you've been that bad for that long. :eek::p

[peace&love]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

[naja]

Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

From the way it sounds, I think you handled it in the correct manner. Problem here is when someone is acting like an @ss, they are unpredictable in how they would take someone who is a lower rank than them voicing what you did.

If you like SD, and enjoy going to this kwoon then I say give it a little time. This person may not stay very long if they do pass their black sash test, and they may not pass. I understand how it would be disappointing, you'll just have to weigh that against how much you enjoy the kwoon and the training there.

[BentMonk]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

This is more a person specific issue than a SD issue IMO. It would be nice if every person who practiced MA was as concerned with developing their character as they are about developing their fists. Some aren't truly concerned with really developing either. They're ego driven hobbyists who view rank as a status symbol. People like this are annoying to be sure. I feel that they exist to help pay the rent on the kwoon, and serve as an example of what a MA isn't. Unless things continue to happen between you and this guy, I wouldn't give it another thought. Be content in the knowledge that you took the moral high road. I'm sorry if this sounds like a bad fortune cookie, but people like that really aren't worth your time and energy. Be well.

[tattooedmonk]

...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

Curious as to why most people throw these away. I find them to be very helpful and valuable. I am missing a few from various forms but have most of the ones that were released or I have made reconstructed copies

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=tattooedmonk;896578]...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

To start with :
13. white crane smashes his right foot
14. vicious tiger turns his head
15. white crane knees, kicks and spreads the wings.

I started to go through the whole thing but it's just too long. Anyway, if you want pictures of the form buy Doc-fai wong's book or video. It's almost the exact same with only minor differences.
I had bought the book years ago when it was first published in 1990. Later, Master Bill was offering a class and I was curious if it would be the same. And what do you know, almost exact. I ask Doc fai wong about it and he says Sin The' stole the form from him, of course Sin The denied it.
This is why I draw my own conclusion that the core material taught by Hiang and Sin was legitimately taught to them. Anything after 1990 I just have a hard time buying.

[shen ku]

PEACE@LOVE,,,,,, just keep in mind that it is your path you are walking, and if he really wants to fallow up with you outside of class he will bring it to you ,,,,and then show him what its all about,,, but just keep walking your path,,,there are more of us like you in this world and in the arts , so don't feel alone

[shen ku]

9807!!!!!!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

I started to go through the whole thing but it's just too long. Anyway, if you want pictures of the form buy Doc-fai wong's book or video. It's almost the exact same with only minor differences.
I had bought the book years ago when it was first published in 1990. Later, Master Bill was offering a class and I was curious if it would be the same. And what do you know, almost exact. I ask Doc fai wong about it and he says Sin The' stole the form from him, of course Sin The denied it.
This is why I draw my own conclusion that the core material taught by Hiang and Sin was legitimately taught to them. Anything after 1990 I just have a hard time buying. Whatever the case maybe, these are GMS's translations and not DFW's.

I have the book.

Funny that GMS's translations coincides with the 128 postures( there are more moves indicated in DFW's translation) and yet DFW's does not .

GMS's is more detailed than DFW'S .

The only way GMS could have stolen it, is if DFW created it himself, which he did not.

I think it help substatiate GMS's claim about the system.

Why would GMS and DFW be the only ones who teach this form, yet both of them talk about how famous and well known a Shaolin form it is?

[sean_stonehart]

Whatever the case maybe, these are GMS's translations and not DFW's.

I have the book.

Cool...


Funny that GMS's translations coincides with the 128 postures( there are more moves indicated in DFW's translation) and yet DFW's does not .

There's a reason for that.


GMS's is more detailed than DFW'S .

You think?


The only way GMS could have stolen it, is if DFW created it himself, which he did not.

Lau Bun brought the set with him to North America in 1922. He taught it until he died in 1967. DFW learned in the mid to late 60's from Lau Bun & his senior classmates. It's been performed in SF's Chinatown, Los Angeles, Maryville since Lau Bun arrived in pieces & completely. I've seen video of a teenaged DFW performing in 1967.


I think it help substatiate GMS's claim about the system.

How?


Why would GMS and DFW be the only ones who teach this form, yet both of them talk about how famous and well known a Shaolin form it is?

Marketing... I can name a handful of other CMA's off the top of my head that have their own version of Ng Ying. CLF has at least 3. Siu Lum Ng Ying Kuen (Shaolin Wu Xing Quan) is a generic name, but DFW put his book out first. First come, first serve.

Here's a better question... why does the SD version kinda look like DFW's?

[Citong Shifu]

...... notes , the ones that are handed out at the seminar, are only one sided. I did my best to reconstruct them. Please correct them or if I have missed or need to change. I am going to do the Chinese translation for them as well.

1. Getting Ready Position
2. White Crane Flies to the Edge of the Sky
3. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
4. White Crane Raises the Knee and Kicks
5. White Crane Salutes the Buddha
6. White Crane Turns, Knees and Kicks
7. White Crane Kicks Back
8. White Crane Knees, Leans Back and Front Kicks
9. Vicious Tiger Back Kicks the Enemy
10. Three Kicks of the White Crane
11. White Crane Guards the Cave
12. White Crane Guards the Nest
13. Vicious Tiger Looks Back
14. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
15. White Crane Knees , Kicks
16. Green Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
17. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
18. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
19. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (R)
20. Golden Dragon Stretches It’s Claw (L)
21. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
22. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
23. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
24. White Snake Comes Up to the Water Surface
25. Golden Snake Whips It’s Tail
26. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
27. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
28. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
29. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
30. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
31. Green Dragon Tests It’s Claw
32. Black Leopard Climbs the Tree
33. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
34. Green Dragon Swings It’s Claw
35. White Snake Climbs Over the Twig
36. Golden Leopard Bounces the Ball
37. Golden Leopard Rolls the Ball
38. Golden Leopard Strikes the Ball
39. Green Dragon Stretches It’s Claw
40. Wild Tiger Raises It’s Head
41. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
42. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
43. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
44. Green Dragon Snatches the Pearl
45. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg ( L)
46. Black Dragon Stretches It’s Leg (R)
47. Black Leopard Twist It’s Neck
48. White Crane Spreads It’ s Wings
49. White Crane Strikes It’s Wings
50. Golden Dragon Opens It’s Claw
51. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
52. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
53. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
54. White Crane Strikes Out with Both Wings
55. White Strikes Out With It’s (L) Wing
56. Green Dragon Sinks to the Bottom of the Ocean
57. Green Dragon Looks at the Sun
58. White Strikes Out With Both Wings
59. White Crane Strikes Out with It’s (R) Wing
60. Wild Tiger Pushes the ( Hua ) Mountain
61. Vicious Tiger Nods It’s Head
62. White Crane Jumps Over the Twig
63. White Crane Smashes It’s (L ) Foot
64. White Crane Stands on One Leg
65. White Crane Defends the Cave
66. White Crane Defends the Nest
67. White Crane Smashes It’s (R) Foot
68. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
69. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
70. Green Dragon Catches the Rainbow
71. Green Dragon Stretches It’s (R) Leg
72. Wild Tiger Looks Back
73. White Crane Spreads It’s Wings
74. Golden Dragon Grabs the Rainbow
75. Golden Leopard Twists It’s Body
76. White Crane Opens It’s (R) Wing
77. White Snake Comes Out of the Hole
78. Black Dragon Turns the Body
79. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
80. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
81. Black Dragon Turns the Body
82. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claw
83. Black Dragon Whips It’s Claw
84. Black Dragon Turn the Body
85. Golden Dragon Reveals It’s Claws
86. Black Dragons It’s Claw
87. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Ocean
88. Green Dragon Come Out of the Ocean
89. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
90. Black Leopard Play with the Ball
91. Golden Leopard Looks at the Moon
92. White Snake Jumps Over the Twig
93. Golden Leopard Scratches It’s Back (Three Elbows)
94. White Snake Looks at the Road
95. Green Dragon Comes Up from the Sea
96. Twin White Cranes Raise their Heads
97. White Snake Throws It’s Tongue Out (Spits Venom?)
98. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
99. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
100. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
101. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
102. Hungry Tiger Strikes the Lamb
103. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
104. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
105. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
106. Green Dragon Comes Up From The Ocean
107. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
108. Vicious Tiger Turns It’s Head
109. Black Leopard Strikes (Stomps) the Ground
110. Golden Snake Strikes Out of the Willow Tree
111. Green Dragon Comes up From the Ocean
112. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
113. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
114. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
115. Poisonous Snake Blocks the Road
116. Vicious Tiger Closes the Door
117. Wild Tiger Looks Back
118. Golden Leopard Hangs from the Tree Branch
119. Golden Leopard Salutes the Buddha
120. White Crane Leaps, Kicks Behind
121. Green Dragon Comes Out of the Lake
122. Move Back and Ride the Tiger
123. White Crane Knee And Spread the Wings
124. Double Snakes Jump Over the Twig
125. White Snake Salutes the Buddha
126. Vicious Tiger Salutes the Buddha
127. Green Dragon Salutes The Buddha
128. Conclusion of the Form

Curious as to why most people throw these away. I find them to be very helpful and valuable. I am missing a few from various forms but have most of the ones that were released or I have made reconstructed copies

When did Shaolin create this 5 Animal Form (year, naster & temple)? From my understanding of Shaolin Martial Arts there was and is no such "Original Shaolin 5 Animal style/form". 5 Animal was not created in Shaolin or by Shaolin. Furthermore, it has never been archived that Shaolin trained or had a 5 animal form/style until this last decade with China trying to build Shaolin kung fu as the birth of all martial arts... Anywho, not preaching here. It's, to many people use the Shaolin name to give credit to their art or themselves. Oh well, thought I would throw that little piece of info out there.

[SDJerry]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

I think the real tragedy here is the fact that the guy you mentioned is getting ready to be awarded a black belt. That is a school problem. IMO they are doing that student as much of a disservice as they are everyone else who currently holds and trained hard for a black belt.

[Baqualin]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

Hey P&L,
Something will be done if this person continues this behavior......disrespect is not tolerated in our school and if I'm not mistaken your studing in Tenn., M. Mullens will not tolerate this either.....attacks out of frustration tells me this person has issues....you apparently have more experience with playing hands and he should have respected that and learned from you.....since he's not above Black.....he's still very green in SD and has alot to learn. Discuss this with an upper level....if it continues! Hopefully he will cool down, think about it and apologise.....if not he's headed for an a$$ kicking and will be kicked out....happens alot.
BQ

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=Baqualin;896531]

That's not hard to get, when you've been that bad for that long. :eek::p

At least the only way we can go is up and were finally doing that.:p:p:p

[The Willow Sword]

I've never had much direction in my life. I guess in the end all that i ever wanted with SD was to feel like i “Belonged”. I never wanted to create any drama for myself in that school, but because of who i am and how i was raised, i facilitated it anyway. It put people off, and as a result i had difficult times generating the kind of social life i had wanted. Growing up with abuse and being confused about who i was supposed to be as a kid and how i am supposed to be as a young adult put the pressures of thinking that anything that i did or said or how i looked or the way i walked would be thought of as weird or stupid or it would turn people off and i wouldnt have friends. So as a result i “tried too hard” and got myself into situations that were stupid, childish and very immature and i am embarrased for it. I wished i had more guidance,but i have this problem of not trusting anyone. I dont think that my time at SD was all that bad ,but i wished that things had been different. I dont blame SD or Sin The' or Joe Shaefer anymore for the things that happened in that past. I dont care about the history or what i think i discovered and i dont care about feeling betrayed. I dont think i was ever betrayed by those people. I only betrayed myself,and i am embarrased because of it. The way that i am is hard to take at times,my mental and emotional and physical armor is like an eggshell, you can try to squeeze it and break it from end to end and it wont break,but you face the weaker side to people, as i always seemed to have done, and it breaks with ease. But there is a valid reason why i have been the way i have and the attitudes i have exhibited. Its my own problem. I just want to say to you all that i am sorry. Im sorry for everything. Im sorry i offended you Joe. Im sorry i offended you Sin the'. Im sorry i offended you SD. Please find it in your heart, if any of you even think about it still, to forgive me. I wished i was better able to live up to the standards that you and others tried to set for me.
Peace,TWS

[bodhi warrior]

It takes guts to express your feelings and ask forgiveness. I don't know you but I hope you get the forgiveness you seek. But above all else, forgive yourself, learn and grow.
Peace

[peace&love]

It is good to see someone take responsibility for their actions, whatever they may be. The hardest thing for someone to do is to forgive themselves. Please forgive yourself if you have not yet and move on in a positive direction. As mentioned earlier in one of my posts, I recently had an incident with a negative human being that has really disillusioned my views towards my school and has placed me in a very reflective state. Yet, I am thinking positive and looking ahead to good things whether it be with SD or elsewhere. Your post has helped me with my own views. An apology goes a long way. It means a lot to a person who receives it. By doing what you did, you have created a road to better relationships, self confidence, and humility. I wish you nothing but happiness and positive energy. Be well.

[MasterKiller]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

[BentMonk]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

Nice find MK. One of the best representations of SD material that I've seen on the web. Thanks for posting it. Not all of the performances were spectacular, but none of them outright sucked IMO either.

[Baqualin]

I've never had much direction in my life. I guess in the end all that i ever wanted with SD was to feel like i “Belonged”. I never wanted to create any drama for myself in that school, but because of who i am and how i was raised, i facilitated it anyway. It put people off, and as a result i had difficult times generating the kind of social life i had wanted. Growing up with abuse and being confused about who i was supposed to be as a kid and how i am supposed to be as a young adult put the pressures of thinking that anything that i did or said or how i looked or the way i walked would be thought of as weird or stupid or it would turn people off and i wouldnt have friends. So as a result i “tried too hard” and got myself into situations that were stupid, childish and very immature and i am embarrased for it. I wished i had more guidance,but i have this problem of not trusting anyone. I dont think that my time at SD was all that bad ,but i wished that things had been different. I dont blame SD or Sin The' or Joe Shaefer anymore for the things that happened in that past. I dont care about the history or what i think i discovered and i dont care about feeling betrayed. I dont think i was ever betrayed by those people. I only betrayed myself,and i am embarrased because of it. The way that i am is hard to take at times,my mental and emotional and physical armor is like an eggshell, you can try to squeeze it and break it from end to end and it wont break,but you face the weaker side to people, as i always seemed to have done, and it breaks with ease. But there is a valid reason why i have been the way i have and the attitudes i have exhibited. Its my own problem. I just want to say to you all that i am sorry. Im sorry for everything. Im sorry i offended you Joe. Im sorry i offended you Sin the'. Im sorry i offended you SD. Please find it in your heart, if any of you even think about it still, to forgive me. I wished i was better able to live up to the standards that you and others tried to set for me.
Peace,TWS

Hey WS,
Glad to here from you again....... your aways welcome here!!!! Everyone goes through bad times mentally and physically....life is tough and we get knocked down constantly, but we have to stand back up and keep going. Two things EML told me after the end of my 19 year marriage...."don't worry about where you've been.....don't worry about where you are now......just think about where your going from here.....that's the only thing you can do anything about".:) the other was, "you may feel like your dying now....but there's life after death" ;) People do care about you and wish you well.....if you learned anything about SD is that we really do care.....all the people who give us flack have realized that were pretty good people.
Peace be with you TWS,
BQ

Always welcome to look me up when your in the area!!

[Baqualin]

What do you guys think of the performances in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi0fnD3hXqo

I think the cat with the chain looks pretty good.

Not bad..Master Reid looked really good. I didn't think much of the internal demos though.
BQ

[MasterKiller]

Not bad..Master Reid looked really good. I didn't think much of the internal demos though.
BQ

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

[Baqualin]

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

I'm much better at seeing the internal, since thats all I've done for years now.....but based on his size I thought it look good and he seemed to move without thinking about what came next in the form...he flowed naturally and showed intent with each move. I'm sure a T/C specialist would pick at it......but Master Reid is a really big guy:eek:...that handles his size very well.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Hey MK,
My bad...I went back and looked at the vid again....I realized the T/C demo was sifu Smith & not Master Reid.....I still liked it and he's a big guy too. Master Reid is doing our Dragon Pakua form...missed it first time through....I did like the way it was done....rest of internal didn't really like.
BQ

[BM2]

I have been training in little over a year in SD. I researched a number of other systems and schools, and the local SD school best fit my schedule. I also liked the fact that the internal arts were taught and practiced there as well. Unfortunately, I have had a recent incident that has left me puzzled and disappointed. Feedback in regards to this would be helpful.

Previous to SD, I trained in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut. We played "sticky" hands and feet regularly and did controlled sparring without gear that was very intense at times. Last night, I played hands with someone who is getting ready to test for a black belt. They did not do well against me and proceeded to strike me in the chin with a fist, which I let go as a mistake. Looking back. it was on purpose I think out of frustration. As the process continued, the person gave me three cheap shot to the neck before reconnecting hands. Since this person is much younger than me, I informed them that they should never do that again. It is against the rules and etiquette of this training technique. They were basically cheap shots. Once I informed the person of this, he stormed out of class threatening to beat me up etc. Please keep this in mind; he's doing this outside the classroom leaving the building without approaching me. I feel like something should be done in regards to this matter. At my old kwoon, this could be call for expulsion due to the disrespect factor. If this person is allowed to continue and tests for black at this point, I would be highly disappointed due to his current emotional state of mind and maturity level. Anyway, any thoughts or views would be greatly appreciated. Peace.

I have thought about this for a while which means I should have waited a little longer before responding to this post.
Everyone has a ego and by relizing that, you can keep it in check.
You hurt his ego, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Just kidding.
Don't put so much about him into your class. Really, it doesn't take anything away from you. You will continue to run in to people like him through life as well as in class.
A black belt just means you can do the basics.
About sixteen years or so ago, a fourth degree black belt asked me to help him stretch against the wall. He was doing the side stretch with his head down by his knee :confused: and asked me to put his leg against the wall. He then said " I can stretch fully but can not side kick as high as this. I took this as asking for an explanation and responded, " You don't kick with your head down by your supporting knee and that is how you are doing it, if you want to stretch for a side kick, put your shoulder to the wall and stand sideways to me." When he did, he could only get his leg up about a 40 degree angle. I said "See, you have been doing it wrong and this will help you kick higher."
He didn't like getting his leg up so low and asked to stretch him the old way with his leg against the wall and his head down.:rolleyes:
At the end of class, he announced to everyone that he was going to spar me. I, being a little slow, didn't know that I had hurt his ego and he was going to try to put it on me. He went hard and I didn't think nothing of it as that is how some spar and I had never sparred him before. He ripped my shirt and he seemed to be a little embarssed and apologized for tearing it. We were not wearing gi tops.
I couldn't care less about him as he does not affect me. I say hi when I see him but don't buddy up to him.

[Judge Pen]

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

[Baqualin]

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

I can see that, but I thought his transitions were very flowing despite the snap. Plus I know the guy and have seen him move in person, so I have a very high opinion of his ability.

Master Tremayne Brown and Master Reid are very fine representations of SD in Atlanta. I wouldn't hesitate to train with either of them.

[Baqualin]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

[Baqualin]

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

Yes, I think he was rushing (I do that sometimes in demos....you get excited)......you should train at a speed that allows you to maintain the intent of each posture, stepping and the principles of the 64 rules (this is harder than it sounds)...if you can increase your speed and maintain these principals...great....if not, your just running around a circle, bouncing up & down, flailing arms (you will see alot of this in SD) and getting nothing out of the form. Go back and look at the old KET shows.....there's some of EM Smith & EM Leonard doing Classical.....they move slower than most you see.....they maintain the principles. If you train at the three height levels and maintain the above you will have a routine from hell....I have the pleasure of going through it with EML on occasion and he glides around the circle like he's on air cushions. I'm a long ways from mastering this....but that day will come:)

[Golden Tiger]

Nice demo. Some things to nit pick but over all, nice.

As for the Pa Kua speed question, BQ is the man on that one. I am thinking about 2X tai chi 24 speed. For classical, you should use the mechanics of the form to generate power, not speed. Now with some of the others, speed comes into place once the mechanics are understood. Think 64 vs. 24 vs Chen 128. Learn to crawl, then walk then finally run.

As my old basket ball coach used to say: Technique, follow through then the shot will come.

[LaterthanNever]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..:rolleyes:

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good :)

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

[bodhi warrior]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..:rolleyes:

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good :)

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form. And not counting the conditioning forms or basic short forms.
This is significantly less than choy li fut which list well over 200 forms.
And less than the number of long forms taught out by his brother.
It's funny hearing Master Sin claim to have mastered 900 forms but his brother never made such claims that I know of and he was a 7th degree black.
According to Master Sin's own words he was going to teach everything he knew in 10 years, making this comment in the late 80's I believe. Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900!

[bodhi warrior]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

[LaterthanNever]

"Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900! "

I'm sure he has enough $. Let him spend a few years putting ALL 900 on video for the public to see..THEN I will believe it.

Until that time..it's just an unsubstantiated claim. I can claim I know 4,000 forms--doesn't mean it is true.

Besides..more is not necessarily better..

[Toby]

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form ...Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

[bodhi warrior]

Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

I agree they are not one form. I just counted them as one for counting purposes.

There are other shaolin groups that teach the internal arts to supplement their systems, ie. peter chema group, tang shou tao, choy li fut etc.

[Leto]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish. But you can copywrite a system or method of instruction. So the ordering and format (and the name that you call your system) in which the forms are taught can be copywrited, and can't be reproduced without consent. I'm not sure if this applies to the actual names of the forms, or just the school and system in general.

[naja]

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish.

I was thinking the same thing. Look at the horse stance. Practically every CMA has it, and look at the kicks as well. You can't copyright such things. It would be like trying to copyright a jab or left hook in boxing.

[peace&love]

Maybe SD has just copyrighted the name and its use, but it does seem that they have referred to specifically the material. It is a bit odd. A lot of the forms have been taught in other systems and styles. That seems to happen a lot in kung fu.

Anyway, I have decided to take a little break from SD after a recent classroom incident was not handled as professionally as I would have liked, and do some meditation on it. My current SD school is very small and has not grown in the past year. If anything, we have lost students, and after a little time to think, I may be gone as well. It is unfortunate because we are in an area where we should have a ton of students. I believe a lack of seriousness on most of the practitioners has a lot to do with it. Also, many of the senior students were studying elsewhere with other systems at the same time. The head instructor was doing the same. This could have been time spent training us with more class options or using the time to get the word out on the school so it could potentially grow. We have some great people there, but they just don't have the time it seems.

Fortunately, some more traditional kung fu schools have opened since my original sifu had to close his school down due to family matter a little over a year ago. I'm going to check them out and keep an open mind. The local SD school has promised to make some changes in attitudes and teaching methods immediately, but it may be a little to late. I will keep an eye out and see what happens.

I hope all on the forum have a great Thanksgiving.

[B-Rad]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

Could have copyrighted the specific training program (learn this for red belt, this for black, etc.). Seeing as how much material was "borrowed" from other systems, he obviously couldn't enforce any kind of copyright on the material itself individually. The actual belt system curriculum though is a modern invention, so if he came up with it himself he could copyright it as a whole, I think. The explanation could be poorly written, not understood well by Mullens, or they're just bullshi*ting to discourage random students from stealing their curriculum and starting their own school.

[kwaichang]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

[bodhi warrior]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

So does this mean Sin The won the settlement or the student?

[kwaichang]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

[bodhi warrior]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

So when you say GM Sin won the case, do you mean he does have the copywrite on the forms he teaches or the structure that the forms are taught in? If i'm no longer part of the organization can I still teach the forms that I learned?

[kwaichang]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

[bodhi warrior]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

[kwaichang]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

[bodhi warrior]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

Kung fu is effort over time whose purpose is to accomplish skill. If you put the time and effort in you will get the skill and it will show.
As far as being held back, if part of the testing is say doing a back flip or something along those lines in one of the drunken immortals, and you can't do the required skill to complete that form correctly then I say yes hold them back.
If I can't do a specific skill in a form after years of practice then I don't need to be testing for the next rank. I should keep practicing.

[kwaichang]

So as you judge you will be judged, I suppose you did all your Forms perfectly then?? Probably not but you progressed anyway. Kung fu says nothing of skill that is your definition it is just effort. KC

[Leto]

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

I hear you, I'm in the same spot.

I was thinking about copyrighting forms, and I suppose it's about the same thing as dance choreography. And apparently dance choreography can be copyrighted.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl119.html

You just have to have a video of the choreographed piece, or a detailed written description.

in fact, I found the shaolin do copyright from 1990, and it is in fact under the category of dramatic work and music or choreography. Submitted in the form of a videocassette
I think the actual copyright was discussed on the thread before.

this is from the US copyright office website, where you can look up anything copyrighted since 1978

Type of Work: Dramatic Work and Music; or Choreography
Registration Number / Date: PAu001493404 / 1990-08-09
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Notes: Cataloged from appl.
Copyright Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Date of Creation: 1980
Authorship on Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Registration: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: selection & ordering of exercises.
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.

I'm not exactly sure what this all means. Also, we don't know exactly what was on that videotape that was submitted. And I wonder does he continue to submit videos and copyright the new material that comes out, or is it technically only that which was part of the system in 1990?

certainly, 24 posture taiji, the jiang rong quiao's classical bagua form, the xingyi five elements and 12 animals, and many others in the system, cannot be copyrighted as they are widely taught and available for learning from many sources. And it's a good point about Hiang The and Ie Chang Ming's other students...they learned much of the same material, but not from Sin The. So the actual forms could not be copyrighted, except for those which Gm The invented himself. It would interesting to see what was on the video tape or tapes he submitted.
The main thing is the order in which the forms are taught, which comprises the system. If you leave some forms out, or teach them in a different order, then you're not violating the copyright, I think. Anyway, as long as someone doesn't stay too close to their old school or shaolin do, they could easily get away with teaching whatever they want. I know for a fact there are people out there teaching some of the material they learned in shaolin do or CSC in their own schools.
If someone changed the name of the school, organized things a little bit differently, added or removed things, then I don't think they would be in violation of the copyright.

[MasterKiller]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me

He lost the right to teach the art as it was structured, but could not be stopped from teaching the material . Because he did not want to stir things up any further he chose not to teach it anymore. But from what I heard he still teaches it in a smaller capacity.Just what I heard. it was either the Soards or Master Sin himself that told me this or someone in their circle.

[Judge Pen]

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me

It was settled out of Court so there's no record of who "won" or "lost"--it was compromised and then voluntarily dismissed; however, my understanding is that Van Over agreed not to teach the forms as structured. The techniques could be re-ordered and new forms created from the techniques. I know several people that have trained at his schools. Their stuff is a mix-mash of forms made up by Van Over or from seminars and forms that Van Over became "certified" to teach such as his Krav Maga program.

The issue of whether SD can enforce its apparent copyright has not been litigated fully. Until a Court rules that it is not enforceable, then legally you can assume he has a valid copyright over the core material and the material that is taught only in SD. The other material that was referenced is widely taught and would fall into the category of public domain.

[shen ku]

i heard in this way, from master sin ,,,,,on dvd,,,,, the case became not a copyright thing but a "trade secret" issue...... trade secret has jail time to it?? it was seteled out of court that he could only teach up to and not past SDs 1st brown level,,,, i did have an articl somewhere ,,years ago ,, that had vanover selling our 2nd brown bird forms on dvd, it was with dillimans group.......
i had another articl,from MAsuccess mag. that roughly layed out how his ranking system went,,, not listing the material... 6 low level belts at that time (basic drills and toury. type forms) and 6 high rank,,,, you would speicalize in tourny forms, tranitional weapons,, and such was how you got higher ranking,,,,,but master sin does state this about the trade secret and what he was allowed to do on a dvd,

[kwaichang]

I have been to his school it is 5 miles from where I live. He does not teach anything even close to SD unless you call a horse stance and a straight punch SD. Here is what occured. He was training under Master Mullins he opened another SD school then told his students he was THE Master and GM The and EM Mullins were dead. He was taken to court for teaching CR material and told to stop . He is a money maker period; that is where these rumors of it is just for money are taken from , or part of it. Still why teach something or part of something. I feel the introduction of a new form will challenge the body in new and diverse ways. Those who stop at what they like or are good at are in my opinion resting on their haunches and not truly challenging themselves or their minds to grow. Can one use the forms for combat ? maybe not but in doing