Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

As far as I know, and I was at the Sports Center in the early 80's, there has NEVER been a "westernization" of the forms to make them easier. There have been 2 attempts to standardize the material that both seemed unsucessful. The variations you describe in Lo Han do not suprise me but I do doubt that were as differnet as you implies. I've heard that as well, from various SD people. That Sin The' had to dumb the material down because Americans didn't have the resolve to do it correctly.

You hear the same kind of stories coming from Shou-Shou and their Da Shifu, too. Even though he was a dumb American. HAHAHAHAHHAHA.

[wdl]

which form am i talking about?
uhhhh "BUNG BO crushing step"

Herm, ok. I was never aware that said form had been taught. I can't find the deal that used to be on the SDA website about previous seminars, etc either.

As far as Lohan goes your not talking about the Master Sin vs the Master Hiang way are you?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I've heard that as well, from various SD people. That Sin The' had to dumb the material down because Americans didn't have the resolve to do it correctly.

I think that story started about by teachers that couldn't do the techniqes so they get modified to an easier technique. They then teach it the way that they can demonstrate it: Hence GT's reference to the attempts to standardize the material. You then hear things like "It's supposed to be this, but if you can't do that then just do that" type statements.

Ex: It's supposed to drop into a full split, but if you can't do that, then just drop into a hurdle stretch instead. The technique is still referenced, but not everyone can do the form the way it was intended.

[The Willow Sword]

TWS, while your stories are told with some apparent good intent, your past dealings with the Texas group and issues you had will always put a slant on what you say.

From Who's point of view? Yours? LOL. Yes i can see where SD people will see my posts as "slanted". :rolleyes:

But the "Issues" are circular,,and they all connect with each other in these posts.

from the point of view from most here that are NOT SD,,my issues relate with the issue that has always been at hand with SD and the rest of the CMA world.

you can belittle all you want what i have to write here. As i see it you are being the good soldier in your organization,,standing up for it,,,being defensive in the face of the attacks and countering with attacks of your own(as i once did)

but i challenge you to go up to Sin The' or Bill Leonard and tell them about your posts here on the forum,,and how valiantly you stand up for your school and art.
Explain to them all the "issues" at hand and see and listen to what they say to you.

i bet i know what they would say. but hey if you want to talk about things further i can Pm you with my phone # and we can talk civily and maybe you can then understand where i am coming from and where alot of people are coming from here.

WDL in answer to your question " No i am not talking about that at all, i never have even met Hiang the' or seen what he teaches,,this is all strictly sda"

Peace,,TWS

[GeneChing]

That's a funny concept - dumbing down the system for Americans. I can totally relate. Since we sell a lot of gear to the general public, I have what I call the "Bubba factor" which means that there's got to be something for 'Bubba' to understand. Ol' Bubba, he lives in a trailer park and lives off fast food. He looks up to Homer Simpson as a role model. Seriously, as a teacher, you do have to move from simple to complex concepts, but I'd never 'dumb' something down, once those were acquired. I can poke fun at Bubba, but we were all beginners at one time. Every man you ever did see was once a baby. That being said, it's not the beginners and babies that are to be judged. It's the seniors. I would hope that once they mastered the dumbed down stuff, they would move on to the real deal.

[wdl]

Gene, lots of Bubba's in Kentucky. (No offense Radhnoti or GT we've got our share in Tennessee too.) Then again, with your connections to Tiger Claw in Knoxville you've probably heard some Bubba stories from this neck of the woods.

TWS, what year was that seminared?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Gene, lots of Bubba's in Kentucky. (No offense Radhnoti or GT we've got our share in Tennessee too.) Then again, with your connections to Tiger Claw in Knoxville you've probably heard some Bubba stories from this neck of the woods.

TWS, what year was that seminared?

-Will

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.

[wdl]

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.

Yeah me too. The only thing Mantis I see in the past seminar list was Pick and Play. He taught it in Lexington in 1998 according to the SDA website. Unless TWS left a LONG time ago, it's not on the SDA website(it only covers past seminars to 1997).



-Will

[MasterKiller]

FYI,
Shaolin-Do, the poster here, left SD after he went to Ft. Worth and showed his Bung Bo to some of Sifu Cottrell's guys. He said getting laughed at by the guy's girlfriend was the final straw.

[sean_stonehart]

I had no idea that Bung Bo was taught out in SD. I'd like to see our version as I've seen a version or two from mantis people.


SD Bung Bo has a different name. One incarnation of it is Yang Mantis from the Yin Yang 2 Man Set. Ask Yazen about it & what he did at the tournie in 03. He did 7* Bung Bo.

[Judge Pen]

FYI,
Shaolin-Do, the poster here, left SD after he went to Ft. Worth and showed his Bung Bo to some of Sifu Cottrell's guys. He said getting laughed at by the guy's girlfriend was the final straw.

Close, but it was White Ape Steals the Peach not Bung Bo. I've learned a version of this form from Jake Burroughs (Three Harmonies here) and actually found it similar to SD's version. There were differences, but not gross differences. I've also compared this form to two other versions and found them all different.

[Judge Pen]

SD Bung Bo has a different name. One incarnation of it is Yang Mantis from the Yin Yang 2 Man Set. Ask Yazen about it & what he did at the tournie in 03. He did 7* Bung Bo.

I knew Yazen did 7* Bung Bo at the tournament. I was one of his judges and scored him 1st.

Ying Yang 2 man set? Don't have it. Don't know anything about it. Did you have it Sean?

[Golden Tiger]

My mind is really slipping at the moment but the seminar history is:

199? Mantis Background and conditioning- 10 roads of something- and something else(I forget) taught at the Radison Hotel.

199? Mantis cont.- Seems like the two man training sets (7 hands , something lamb, etc) and Penetrating Hammer perhaps?

Then White Monkey steals the Peach, Pick and Play and seems like another one.

After that, he moved on to other forms.

Sorry for the dates and names, my brain is elsewhere this afternoon.

[wdl]

GT: Do you happen to remember when Thrust was taught?

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

From Who's point of view? Yours? LOL. Yes i can see where SD people will see my posts as "slanted".

Yes from my point of view. I can't speak for everyone else silly. But I would imagine that anyone that knows your past (mouth wrote a check your a$$ couldn't cash then got made cause noone would fight your fight for you) would see that you have a pattern.....slam SD/say the training was killer. Sound like a wee bit of schizophrenic good cop/bad cop to me. Anyway....

you can belittle all you want what i have to write here. As i see it you are being the good soldier in your organization,,standing up for it,,,being defensive in the face of the attacks and countering with attacks of your own(as i once did)

It is not my intent to belittle anyone (except see above and probably a time or two below). And like I said before, I won't waste my time defending the same old arguement any more.


but i challenge you to go up to Sin The' or Bill Leonard and tell them about your posts here on the forum

You would think after your last "challenge" you wouldn't throw that word around so much.* (See above concerning belittlement) But I have talked about these issues with Bill a few time and was told to generally ignore you all. (I do wish I had never been told of this site, its like crack!)

So TWS my friend, chill out. Enjoy what you do now, let go of the past. Its like talking smack about every girl that ever dumped you. It's kinda childish and it accomplishes nothing.

Sorry I couldn't remember more about the Mantis seminars.

[sean_stonehart]

I knew Yazen did 7* Bung Bo at the tournament. I was one of his judges and scored him 1st.

Ying Yang 2 man set? Don't have it. Don't know anything about it. Did you have it Sean?

I thought you were.

Don't have it. It was taught before I got there & not since I left.

[MasterKiller]

But I have talked about these issues with Bill a few time and was told to generally ignore you all. Why? What was his reasoning for not answering the criticisms directly?

[The Willow Sword]

But I would imagine that anyone that knows your past (mouth wrote a check your a$$ couldn't cash then got made cause noone would fight your fight for you) would see that you have a pattern.....slam SD/say the training was killer. Sound like a wee bit of schizophrenic good cop/bad cop to me. Anyway....


I have NEVER asked ANYONE to fight my fights for me. What i asked for was SUPPORT in the challenge and i was initially given that support and then the support got withdrawn at the last minute. It shows a LACK of INTEGRITY on the part of the one who gave it then took it away. YOU DONT DO THAT to someone and expect them to remain loyal to you and your organization especially when the history is a bunch of cr@p.

Yes bill told you to ignore all this right? and yet you are still here arent you? dont give me that " this site is like crack" BS to me. you make your choices just as i did.


Peace,,TWS

[MonkeySlap Too]

Probably because he knows that the answers he would give would collapse like the bag of lies that they are.

See the 'Shaolin Center' quotes on the last page. Hello?

[Golden Tiger]

GT: Do you happen to remember when Thrust was taught?

-Will


Is Thrust and Enters the Door (Tang Lang Tse D'ju) the same thing? Been a while since I heard reference to "thrust and Blitz". Master Hiang taught all of the other Tang Lang forms out in the early 80's late 70's perhaps? Thrust, Blitz, Chein. As for "Trap", I missed it if he taught it.

Those aren't generally encouraged (Trap and Blitz) so I didn't keep up with them.

[lxtruong]

Is Thrust and Enters the Door (Tang Lang Tse D'ju) the same thing? Been a while since I heard reference to "thrust and Blitz". Master Hiang taught all of the other Tang Lang forms out in the early 80's late 70's perhaps? Thrust, Blitz, Chein. As for "Trap", I missed it if he taught it.

Those aren't generally encouraged (Trap and Blitz) so I didn't keep up with them.

I think the TN folks call it Thrusts open the door or some such. It's the same I think.

[wdl]

Yeah, it's the same I believe.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, it's the same I believe.

-Will

Yep. Praying Mantis Enters the Door a.k.a. Mantis Thrust. It's listed on the SDA website. Why isn't that one "encouraged", GT?

[wdl]

Yep. Praying Mantis Enters the Door a.k.a. Mantis Thrust. It's listed on the SDA website. Why isn't that one "encouraged", GT?


I think he was talking about Trap and Blitz and not Thrust.

-Will

[Ground Dragon]

I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo, but I think it was called something else, not sure though. I still have the videotape for that one and a couple of others in a box somewhere.
The four original ones were Tang Lang Tse Ju, Pu Fu, Chung Sen and Chien (I'm sure I spelled at least one of those wrong). I picked up three, missed Pu Fu.
I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

[lxtruong]

I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo, but I think it was called something else, not sure though. I still have the videotape for that one and a couple of others in a box somewhere.
The four original ones were Tang Lang Tse Ju, Pu Fu, Chung Sen and Chien (I'm sure I spelled at least one of those wrong). I picked up three, missed Pu Fu.
I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

I don't encourage people to do Tang Lang Chien, but mostly because it just makes you really tired. :)
Actually it's a sorta fun form, but my god it has a ton of kicks, very tiresome.

[Fu-Pow]

As far as I know, and I was at the Sports Center in the early 80's,

I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s.

Imagine it.......the cocaine era, you have a mullet, huge muscles and own a "sports center" right when athletic clubs were becoming the rage.

I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!

Aah....the good old days....right Golden Tiger?

Now look where he is.

Right back where he started....teaching the Gwai Lo chop suey fu.

[serene_dragon]

Yin Yang 2 man set, very nice kata. I have that one it is Part 3 of the set.

Bung Bo, Im not sure but it seems like at the seminar (Shaolin Monkey Fist) I heard that name mentioned. I could be wrong. I like Shaolin Monkey Fist, it has alot of good applications to it but its not really one of my favorites.

[The Willow Sword]

People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"? :D

IT WAS ADVERTISED IN "95 AS BUNG BO CRUSHING STEP" and only ONE of you aside form me corroborates that it was.
Now maybe later on the name was changed because maybe some 7* people then caught wind of it and called up and made a fuss. hell i dont know,,,,,im not lying about it NOR am i misinformed as to the name of the form that was taught out then.

What about "white monkey comes out of the cave"? remember that mantis form that was taught? i have the vid for that one,,AND the SD mantis training vid as well.

Sheeesh. :o

PEACE,,,TWS

[MasterKiller]

After I saw the pics of that sports complex, I came to two conclusions:

A) Sin The' really likes to see his name on big signs. Sin The' Karate Tournament, Sin The' Sports Complex...

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

[wdl]

People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"? :D


LOL

Actually I took the time and found it referenced on a few SD sites this afternoon.

-Will

[wdl]

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

I know his son was a competition weight lifter and he blew his knees out during a squat lift.

-Will

[MasterKiller]

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/articles/shaolinironpalm.pdf

Check out his flabby gut. Hardly the cut Sin The' that is spalshed all over the every other SD website.

His beach muscles must have been developed around 40 or so...

[wdl]

His beach muscles must have been developed around 40 or so...

So you can get ripped when your older!! Gives me hope yet. :D

If you saw how much the man ate, if he had an injury that kept him away from training he'd ballon up like that pretty quick. Might have just been a phase, or... he could have been fat and did the Arnold thing like you said.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

I'm curious too as to why some of those aren't encouraged.

Never got the full gist of the story on "Blitz". I just remember that some one did it at a tournament and Master Mullins stopped it. Wouldn't swear to it but I think it had to do with Master Hiang ( "his" form or something). Tang Lang Chien and Tse D'ju are still alive and well though. I didn't get Poo Foo (Trap ) either so I wouldn't know it if I saw it.

Ground Dragon -I was there at the Radisson when Sin The' taught out Bung Bo

Thought you left to the dark side (just kidding) years before that GD. Heck, I probably know you.

I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s. I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!

Aah....the good old days....right Golden Tiger?


Actually, it was a big Lincoln, and I think it was pre-Whitesnake but yes, there were some fine ladyz there. Course I was too young to flex my pimp hand. That and all the big time wrestlers worked out there (Macho Man Savage, Leaping Lanny, Pistol Pez and even Miss Elizabeth (RIP)...ahh the good old days.


People here are scratching their head saying "bung bo? bung bo?" "uhh was it called that? i dont remember that?" " was it white monkey steals the form,,,uhh i mean peach"?

Sorry TWS, I was working and it has been about 10 years since I even looked at that stuff. I am too lazy to get the tapes out and my notes from the classes are a mess but if I get real bored someday, I will do so and list it all out.


If you saw how much the man ate, if he had an injury that kept him away from training he'd ballon up like that pretty quick. Might have just been a phase, or... he could have been fat and did the Arnold thing like you said.

The "flabby" days were back in the 80's when he was trying to get the SportCenter going. The muscle days came in the early 90's when he went back to training 8-10 hours a day. He invited some of us to work out with him (I was in decent shape) and I lasted about 30 mins. If nothing else, the man works out like a mofo. The reason he never would teach us "10,000 Lotus Blossoms" was because no one could keep up with the background training....although we did a teaser of it ......shhhhhh


Thats all I have for tonight.....

[themeecer]

I bet Sin The was pulling some serious tail at his sports center in the '80s.

Imagine it.......the cocaine era, you have a mullet, huge muscles and own a "sports center" right when athletic clubs were becoming the rage.

I bet he drove a camaro, wore butt tight white jeans and a half shirt and blasted the Whitesnake as he pulled in to his "Master's Only" parking spot everyday.

It would have driven the b!tches wild!!!!!
Ha! You talk like it is in the past tense. We still comment about his pimping skills to this day. He is always hanging out with beautiful women. It is enough to make me contiplate a mullet.

I do miss the sports center .. I was just a kid then, but I remember it well from going up for testing. I also remember getting my tail handed to me from a 7 foot tall 450 pound amazon woman. (Or at least that is what it seemeded like to a tiny 10 year old) She mopped the floor with my little body. Had me on the floor and I look up and my parents are in the door laughing. Well the woman picks me off the ground and asks me if I was ok .... I said yes. She then drops me and starts beating on me some more. It was most humiliating. I have been looking for her for years ... paybacks are coming. :)

[wdl]

Ha! You talk like it is in the past tense. We still comment about his pimping skills to this day. He is always hanging out with beautiful women. It is enough to make me contiplate a mullet.


Yeah, wasn't it like, a only few years ago he was seeing the playboy playmate out in California?

meecer with a mullet... that would be like Jackie Chan with an afro and a bucket of KFC. :eek:

-Will

[themeecer]

Hasn't Jackie sported a mullet before?

[wdl]

Hasn't Jackie sported a mullet before?

Yeah, it's kinda like Master Sin's. It's a half mullet half who knows what.

No one questions the man's hair or his shoes. Why? Because he's got mojo with the ladies.



-Will

[Ground Dragon]

Never got the full gist of the story on "Blitz". I just remember that some one did it at a tournament and Master Mullins stopped it. Wouldn't swear to it but I think it had to do with Master Hiang ( "his" form or something). Tang Lang Chien and Tse D'ju are still alive and well though. I didn't get Poo Foo (Trap ) either so I wouldn't know it if I saw it.


Thought you left to the dark side (just kidding) years before that GD. Heck, I probably know you.
.....

That's pretty funny, I've been told that comment before by my teacher, that we're the'dark side'. All in fun though. Wouldn't care though, it's always cooler to be the villain :cool:

I haven't been around that long, I was a newly minted yellow belt at that seminar back in 96.

[BM2]

Just cause you turned to the Dark Side don't go around sayin " Who's your Daddy." :D
Hey, that would be funny on a T-shirt. Darth Vader with Who's your Daddy on it !

[Golden Tiger]

Just cause you turned to the Dark Side don't go around sayin " Who's your Daddy." :D
Hey, that would be funny on a T-shirt. Darth Vader with Who's your Daddy on it !

I think you have been drinking the bong water again......Put the pipe down and slowly step away...... :D

[Judge Pen]

After I saw the pics of that sports complex, I came to two conclusions:

B) He got his beach muscles from pumping iron ala Arnold, not from kung fu training. Heck, in some of those early pics, he has a flabby belly hanging over his belt.

There were times when he was in better condition than others. When I first started, well after the decline of the sports center, he was cut like the pictures show.

[Starchaser107]

growing old and getting fat suxors :mad:

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, wasn't it like, a only few years ago he was seeing the playboy playmate out in California?

meecer with a mullet... that would be like Jackie Chan with an afro and a bucket of KFC. :eek:

-Will

I don't know about the playmate, but the two ladies he brought to the Lexington tournament from Cali in 2003 were fine.

[Golden Tiger]

growing old and getting fat suxors :mad:


Preach on brother.....

[MonkeySlap Too]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.

[Judge Pen]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.

My genes are too lazy to look that cut.

[lxtruong]

My genes are too lazy to look that cut.

You genes and your arms and your legs and your abs and .... :)

Hey man, I'm there too. My conditioning is no where near where it should be.

[MasterKiller]

Good luck running a business and staying cut. One thing I can't deny Sin The' - the man has maintained some killer conditioning... good genetics for it help, but that's a lot of hard work to look like that.I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

[Radhnoti]

Just to be clear, all the entire group of us have been able to say we know about the short forms is:
Some schools mistakenly call them tan tui.
It's a 30 "form" summary of something we've heard was called 108 steps of the Lohan.
This has been cited as THE BASE OF OUR SYSTEM and that's all the history we've got...
Other systems that I've learned a bit about fare similarly, for example two of the forms taught at 1st brown...Connecting fist and 5 directional palm (my favorite things I've learned in SD). Sometimes people classify them as "China Hand" but I wonder if this isn't revisionist as calling our short forms tan tui seems to be, sort of attempting to paint on a more recognizable kung-fu paintjob. The older students often say that they heard it was classified under the category of "Tiger" which is VERY confusing to me (none of the trademarks of Tiger that I've come to recognize in other SD forms). This is one of the things I begged my instructor to find out about by asking HIS teacher to clarify the history (a fellow SD requires that students address as Master), and when he did so the answer was that he didn't know and why ask such pointless questions. He couldn't even clear up what category to place those forms into...adding his opinion that they shared quite a few similarities to various bird-like forms :o

In a seminar I attended with one of GM Sin's earliest students he mentioned that the short forms weren't as linear as they now are, he then showed us a couple and the way they'd been changed. It was a big difference...and looked quite a bit more difficult than the way we do them now.
Here's the best idea of the way they should be performed I've read about "short form theory", it was put together by one of the TN students (as far as I know not a master) back when everyone was allowed on the Mullins forum. By the way, that one time shining example of free exchange of information is (I believe) ANOTHER casualty of petty politics.

Written by KungFuGenius on the Mullins forum:
Here's a little short form theory I've thought up, don't know how right it is, but hey, why not get some feedback/discussion from my fellow SD people. Anyways, here it is.

Short Form Overview
Short form is the foundation of future material taught to the student. It teaches footwork, punching, grabbing, breaking, sweeping, and kicking. It also promotes strength and flexibility throughout the body. Each block is a strike, and each strike is a block. Short form also teaches the use of the entire body as a single weapon. Hip and shoulder movement is very important, as they are the roots of the power in the arms and legs.

Attacking Power of Short Form
In Short Form, your punch should start in mid-step and extend completely when the step lands. Before the attack is done, the hips should rotate with the fist, therefore extending the reach and power of the punch. When you step forward with the right foot, the left pushes the body forward, use this momentum to throw the arm and increase your striking power. The harder the back leg pushes the stronger the attack.
When the hips and shoulders rotate with the punch, the body turns sideways and extends the arm further, which increases range and power. When the momentum of the back legs push and the twisting of the hips and shoulders is combined, a lot of power can be produced. It doesn’t matter what the movement is: punching, thrusting, smashing, blocking (in front, above, or to the side), this method stays the same.
Kicking in Short Form is quick but strong. Pressing the hip out with the kick just before the moment of impact will ensure that you kick through your opponent, considering you’ve judged the distance accurately (neither too close or too far). Kicking can mess up the hip movement for the next attack. If you kick with the right foot, the right hip has shifted forward. Since most short forms end with a kick, and the kicking leg lands to start the next attack, having the hip already pressed outward when you set the foot down will cause you to lose power in your next attack (which is usually a hand attack). Because of this, rechambering the kicking leg is very important, as that sets the hip back into place, ready to rotate with your next attack, whether it be a punch or kick.
In addition to hip and shoulder movement, each strike should be done as hard as possible. .Making each strike as hard as it can takes a lot of work and this training has no true ending. Though you will learn to strike harder, you are still striking as hard as you can, thus draining your physical strength. This goes back to the theory that Short Form is the foundation of all future material. Learn to punch and kick hard now so time won’t be wasted making them powerful later.

Balance and Stances of Short Form
Stances in Short Form are deep, which creates strength and balance in the legs. Balance is very important because without it, the hip and shoulder rotation is awkward, which then in turn decreases the striking power. Rechambering the attacks will help your balance. Deep stances will also improve balance as well as flexibility and strength. In many styles, the stance is considered the essence and foundation of the art. Without a strong foundation, a building will crumble. Ideally, the thigh should be parallel with the ground when standing in the Bo Stance. A great deal of flexibility and strength is required to maintain the stances. The only way to improve balance, strength, and flexibility in Short Form is to do Short Form. Again, Short Form is a foundation, build the foundation now so the building won’t crumble.

Blocking in Short Form
Every block should be crippling to the enemy. When blocking the head, the arm goes up in arc to clear the attacker’s limb out of the way. This clearing also begins the hip rotation. Blocking in front is done as if you’re attacking. Remember that each block is an attack and vice versa. Blocking as if you’re striking will make sure the opponent will be hurt no matter what he does.

Stepping in Short Form
Stepping is done as if stepping over a fallen opponent. Step in a straight line. After each short form, bring the heel up almost to kick yourself in the butt, then step through. When you step, your body should not rise higher than the height of your bo stance; the same goes for when you throw an attack. This builds strength and balance in your steps.

Apologies to KungFuGenius for posting without his permission, but I thought this was very good and AT THE TIME it was posted on a public forum. :(

[lxtruong]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

Well he has sustained some injuries, so I think that he hasn't been able to keep in as good shape as he would like. That being said, he still looks phenomenal for a man of his age. He's 61? 62? years old. Most 60+ year olds can only dream of looking like he does, even when his conditioning isn't tip-top. I know that when I'm 60, if I even look half as good I'll be happy.

[Judge Pen]

That was an excellent description of the way our short form should be done and the principles behind them. I too miss they open forum days and rue the politics behind it. That was the same post I was going to make, but I was going to have to re-type the entire thing so I hadn't gotten around to it.

Tiger, China Hand, Long Fist I've heard all of the descriptions for 5 Directional Palm and Connecting Fist. It's groupled with a Golden Tiger form that is obviously Northern in origen.

As for my conditioning, I have an excuse for that, but I'm working hard to get over it. As for Master Sin, I defer to what lxtroung posted.

[wdl]

It's groupled with a Golden Tiger form that is obviously Northern in origen.


The opening and closing in that form is another subject of debate. LOL

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

All of those were from 1988-93 or there abouts. The "business man" look was the 70's and 80's. Someone have their dates mixed up. He got ripped and cut prior to moving to LA for the movie stuff.


...Just to be clear, all the entire group of us have been able to say we know about the short forms is: .............This has been cited as THE BASE OF OUR SYSTEM and that's all the history we've got...

Rad, you should know the extent of what history is offered with SD. If it is a history rich style with a bullet proof lineage, perhaps this is not the style for you. If you are happy with what SD does have to offer, by all means continue. But, on the other hand, you feel the need to constantly justify the history and training, you are wasting your time.


Connecting fist and 5 directional palm (my favorite things I've learned in SD). Sometimes people classify them as "China Hand"

That is because when they were taught to a select few MANY years ago, that is what they were called. 18 and 22 I think. Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as). They are "sister " forms. The China hand reference comes from one using a claw, another a fist and the other and open palm. The biggest problem is that most aren't perfectionist so they don't take the stuff down verbatim. Over time it all mutates. Called Evolution.



I begged my instructor to find out about by asking HIS teacher to clarify the history (a fellow SD requires that students address as Master), and when he did so the answer was that he didn't know and why ask such pointless questions.

Are you saying that the only reason that this person should be addressed as Master is because SD requires it? If you don't have respect for this person, who taught your teacher, who taught you.....


In a seminar I attended with one of GM Sin's earliest students he mentioned that the short forms weren't as linear as they now are, he then showed us a couple and the way they'd been changed.

I may have misunderstood the other day what you all was refering to. The forms didn't change per se but yes, the way some were executed did. It wasn't done because of the "western" curse, just because over time the circlular motion was straightened out.

back when everyone was allowed on the Mullins forum. By the way, that one time shining example of free exchange of information is (I believe) ANOTHER casualty of petty politics.


Man, I have been kissing every butt in Tenn to try to get back there but it just ain't happening, so yes, politic's suck. As for petty, everything is relative.....

[MasterKiller]

Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as).
Golden Cyborg? :eek:

[The Willow Sword]

Hee hee hee,,yeah the golden cyborg. You know the Sd people can just say it without thinking twice about it. the term as it was justified to me in years past was that was Sin the's interpretation of a chinese word that meant something along the lines of "golden living statue" or something like that.

Peace,,,TWS

[Golden Tiger]

Similar to the the "Pekufo" in our Hsing I animals. The translation is not exact so it was said to be like a pheasant, quail and foul.

[Starchaser107]

::blowing whistle::

:D :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Man, it just keeps getting better.

[themeecer]

Also like another funny translation from Pa Qua ... Ducks came out as a herd

I have heard the golden 'cyborg' a couple of times. That is awkward to say .. I simply use the Chinese name.

[Starchaser107]

upon hearing cyborg explained as "Golden Living Statue", people said "ok, very well then", and went on about thier business? :confused:

[Judge Pen]

That is because when they were taught to a select few MANY years ago, that is what they were called. 18 and 22 I think. Others mistakenly call them Tiger forms because of Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien that they are taught with(which, by the way is Golden Cyborg nets/traps the tiger, not golden mountain tigernet trap form as it is sometimes refered to as). They are "sister " forms. The China hand reference comes from one using a claw, another a fist and the other and open palm. The biggest problem is that most aren't perfectionist so they don't take the stuff down verbatim. Over time it all mutates. Called Evolution.

Just like Lo Han Chien and mantis are sister forms?

If we posted the symbols for Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien could the more educated here translate? Lots of things GM The says gets lost in translation (ducks flying out of herds, golden cyborgs etc)

[Starchaser107]

Ducks coming out of a herd is excusable....

that in no way compares remotely to

Cybernetics...

[MasterKiller]

All of those were from 1988-93 or there abouts. The "business man" look was the 70's and 80's. Someone have their dates mixed up. He got ripped and cut prior to moving to LA for the movie stuff.
So how's that coming along, anyway? Last time I heard, the Chinese government was going to foot the bill for most of the production. :rolleyes:

I have an idea for a sequel: The Grandmaster 2: Kung Fu Cyborg.

[MasterKiller]

Kevin Alber, our movie script writer, finally finished the rewrite of our move script The Grandmaster. It is 184 pages long, so it will be a 3 hours of epic adventure of martial arts movie. Again the hero of the movie is Shaolin. My life story only served as a tool to bring out & accentuate the story of Shaolin. I read the script over & over again and am convinced it is going to be a great movie. Once this move is out, it shall have a tremendous impact on the future of Shaolin-do. We are working on polishing it now and plan to turn in the script early next week to our producer, hence the movie company. Kevin & I are very excited about this. Because this script is so good we expect it will do great in move theaters across the country. That means it will have the following sequels made. That means it is very likely to have our dream, a once a week TV show, made as well. I feel great for our future & yours & the future of Shaolin-do. Looking forward to see you at the tournament. With kind regards, I remain:

Sincerely,

Grandmaster Sin The


WHOA MAN! He wants to take over the world!

http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/tournaments/1999Mar/letter.html

[Golden Tiger]

If we posted the symbols for Ching Kung Fu Hu Chien could the more educated here translate? Lots of things GM The says gets lost in translation (ducks flying out of herds, golden cyborgs etc)

Just as I explained to JP, when describing it to us, he talked about a huge golden statue or guardian with a huge eye in the center of the head, similar to that in mythology. He called it the Golden Cyborg but I think that he meant to call it Cyclops. It was funny and kinda stuck.

[sean_stonehart]

How about maybe an Arhat (Lohan) that assisted Buddha?? :confused:

Kinda like in Chen Taiji...

Jin Gung Dao Zhui ... Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar ...

Throwin' a bone here...

[Thunaric]

Last we heard the movie was supposed to start production this year and be out in 2006. Supposed to have alot of Su Kong. Maybe it will give more information.

Circus idea with the whip chain and the bicycle riding -- It does seem like there is alot to do with the circus in all this. Seems like there often was circus activity with martial artist activity in China.

We are taught the "connected fist", the "five directional palm/fist" and the other one that is always said in chinese in varying ways are tiger forms. Also, the Lo han form is supposed to be a mantis form.

Checked out this Chang style tai chi / Shuai Chao / Chi Gung school last night. The tai chi I saw was very very different than what I have learned at Shaolin do. This stuff was done less slowly. It was also done with less breaks and with less sharp movements. Very smooth. I've never seen Grandmaster Sin The or the local master really demonstrate tai chi though. This school I checked out was very different in other ways too. The guy was like, "I'll teach you what you want to learn." Also, when I said "pa' kua' " he corrected me and said "b'agua" really quick.

The journey continues.

[Starchaser107]

gt

a mythological creature with one eye in the center of it's head is called a CYCLOPS

a cyborg is a mechanized human being. Part man part robot and belongs to the world of science & technology / science fiction

[themeecer]

Also, the Lo han form is supposed to be a mantis form.

The green belt Lo Han Chien form is a precurser to learning our mantis forms but isn't in itself an actual mantis form. It is often called such though.

The tai chi I saw was very very different than what I have learned at Shaolin do. This stuff was done less slowly.

It was also done with less breaks and with less sharp movements. Very smooth. I've never seen Grandmaster Sin The or the local master really demonstrate tai chi though. This school I checked out was very different in other ways too. Mine has zero breaks and no sharp movements. (Granted if you were watching a chen tai chi version you would see sharp movements, which I don't know any of) Also I do it at varying speeds .. for strength and endurance I will do it at around a 20-25 minute completion time. Other times I will do it much quicker.

The guy was like, "I'll teach you what you want to learn." Also, when I said "pa' kua' " he corrected me and said "b'agua" really quick.
Simply the dialect. Sounds like the jerk we have teaching from the flea market here. He is pushing 300 pounds and claims to teach "Real Field Tested Combatives" in Pa qua and hsing i. His business cards reads: No silly rituals, no endless kata, no mindless bowing.

[Judge Pen]

How about maybe an Arhat (Lohan) that assisted Buddha?? :confused:

Kinda like in Chen Taiji...

Jin Gung Dao Zhui ... Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar ...

Throwin' a bone here...

You threw a big bone: In my lyrics for Chen 83 it says Cyborg pounds the mortar. . . . sounding more like he meant to say Arhat. Maybe he meant to saw flock instead of herd too.

And if you saw sharp movements you weren't watching someone who knew how to do tai chi correctly. I was taught to do it very slow, but for the reasons themeecer said.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Define "sharp" - Chen Taiji has very explosive moments of issueing in a number of the forms. Very quick, very explosive.

Makes you wonder....

[Fu-Pow]

Simply the dialect. Sounds like the jerk we have teaching from the flea market here. He is pushing 300 pounds and claims to teach "Real Field Tested Combatives" in Pa qua and hsing i. His business cards reads: No silly rituals, no endless kata, no mindless bowing.

Actually it's not "just the dialect." Pa Kua and Ba Gua are different romanizations (Wade-Giles and Pin Yin respectively) but the actual pronunciation sounds more like Baa Gwaa. You won't go anywhere in China where they say Pah Kwaa. That's just a misunderstanding of the romanization system.

Here's a comparison:

http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/chin_chart.htm

[serene_dragon]

"Tai Tse Chien - Fist of Grand Ultimate Mercy" or I have heard it called Mercyfist or Buddafist, I was told this is a sister to Tai Chi. It has the very fast and very explosive movements in it.

[themeecer]

Actually it's not "just the dialect." Pa Kua and Ba Gua are different romanizations (Wade-Giles and Pin Yin respectively) but the actual pronunciation sounds more like Baa Gwaa. You won't go anywhere in China where they say Pah Kwaa. That's just a misunderstanding of the romanization system.

Here's a comparison:

http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk/chin_chart.htm
I agree ... but the sound is between a P and B sound. And the other is between the K and the G. Just as in the word kung/gung fu.

[PangQuan]

this is correct.

[Radhnoti]

GT - "Rad, you should know the extent of what history is offered with SD. If it is a history rich style with a bullet proof lineage, perhaps this is not the style for you. If you are happy with what SD does have to offer, by all means continue. But, on the other hand, you feel the need to constantly justify the history and training, you are wasting your time."

I've always known to what knowledge I've had access, but how often do lower (meaning even 3rd blacks in the case of my instructor) belts hear things like this:

GT, earlier in this thread - "...contact one of the 6 or 7 masters that are the the Lexington gym. They would be more than happy to help...". You stated clearly that they KNOW the fine points of all the forms AND the history. Now you seem to be acknowledging that much is unclear or unknown? :confused: Am I wrong in my interpretation of your suggestions?

To be honest, I DON'T care about lineage or history, at least it's not important enough to drive me away. The problem I have is that it's the rare higher-up in SD that ADMITS to not knowing things about the history. If NO ONE knows, fine. There are lots of styles with "nebulous histories", especially kuntao styles which is where I think SD should fall as far as classifications go.
But, it's important that SOMEONE in SD step up to the plate and admit to what ISN'T known. At the VERY least it's something that should be explained to the students. How much time would I have saved had I known not to waste my time (or other's time) looking for answers to certain questions? It IS a misrepresentation to pretend full knowledge the way so many higher-ups in SD seem to have done.
I stated that SD requires my instructor's teacher be referred to as "Master" to specify that I've tried to "ask a master", which seemed to be your main suggestion. I respect his ability and the years he's put into his training. However, his tendency to gloss over what he didn't know and eventually play the "Honor GM Sin and don't ask rude questions" card did tend to bother me. So to be clear, overall, I'm glad for my time spent in the style.

[sean_stonehart]

You threw a big bone: In my lyrics for Chen 83 it says Cyborg pounds the mortar. . . . sounding more like he meant to say Arhat. Maybe he meant to saw flock instead of herd too.

Brother Pen... for your reading enjoyment... http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/xin_jia/index.html

Read the Yi Lu Routine...


And if you saw sharp movements you weren't watching someone who knew how to do tai chi correctly. I was taught to do it very slow, but for the reasons themeecer said.

Depends on the Taiji...

[BM2]

I dunno about "maintained." Most of those videos and pictures are from the 70s and 80s, but he did look good for someone that old. He looks like a worn-out old man in most of the newer pics.

I have noticed that several times on this and other forums you have made statements of other's looks. Would you show us a pic of yourself so that we may critique it? As you are in your middle 30s giving us your age is not needed. One showing us how "ripped" you are would suffice.
HA HA HA HA
I bet it gets posted right after Hedge's video :D :eek: :rolleyes: ;)

[Starchaser107]

Buddha 3000 and his cybernetic warrior attendant decimate the mortar

[wdl]

This is MasterKiller at the office:

MasterKiller (http://doug.truecutblades.com/toiletninja.jpg)

:D

-Will

[BM2]

Remember, the job not finished untill the paper work is done. :o

[Golden Tiger]

I've always known to what knowledge I've had access, but how often do lower (meaning even 3rd blacks in the case of my instructor) belts hear things like this:

GT, earlier in this thread - "...contact one of the 6 or 7 masters that are the the Lexington gym. They would be more than happy to help...". You stated clearly that they KNOW the fine points of all the forms AND the history. Now you seem to be acknowledging that much is unclear or unknown? Am I wrong in my interpretation of your suggestions?


History wise, they know what has been told to them. Some of it written down, some from being in Master Sin's, Hiang's, Leonard's, Smith's and Green's classes. The ones that were there from the beginning. Is it complete? Doubtful. Is it 100% fact based truth? Who knows? Are the ones there willing to share what they know? ABSOLUTELY!

As for the forms, they do know quiet a bit of the finer points, due to the fact that the things that you are learning they have been doing for close to 30 years under the DIRECT instruction of Masters' (see list above). I have been in a hour class where short kata 1 was disected. A stance and two moves. It doesn't get much finer than that. Or one where a hook kick was discussed for close to 2 hours. So, this knowledge you are looking for is there. So, perhaps Mr. R should come down and spend a little time seeking this so he can pass it on to you (which by the way he has been strangely absent of late, but I digress..)


The problem I have is that it's the rare higher-up in SD that ADMITS to not knowing things about the history. If NO ONE knows, fine.

Some are better than others at admitting a lack of information. Heck, I think I know a lot but even I don't know it all. There, happy?



I stated that SD requires my instructor's teacher be referred to as "Master" to specify that I've tried to "ask a master", which seemed to be your main suggestion. I respect his ability and the years he's put into his training. However, his tendency to gloss over what he didn't know and eventually play the "Honor GM Sin and don't ask rude questions" card did tend to bother me.

I can not speak for Master B. but if you wish, I will discuss this with him if you wish. He is a great guy and I am sure that if your "annoyance" at his answers was known, he would go out of his way to help.


Again, I am just trying to give MY version of the history, finer point and insights to SD that I have learned. Some relies on memory (which is slipping I admit), some on notes and some on interptations. Is everything correct? I doubt it. Is it what I think to be correct? ABSOLUTELY. Take it or leave it.

[The Willow Sword]

I have been in a hour class where short kata 1 was disected. A stance and two moves

A stance and two moves dissected in an hour? That long? For Short Kata 1? :confused: Oh and Kata is japanese BTW ;)


Or one where a hook kick was discussed for close to 2 hours.

Discussing a hook kick for two hours? :eek:

Well goodness gracious me you guys really ARE brimming with extensive and complete Temple Knowledge arent you? I mean to discuss the finer of the finer points of a hook kick for 2 hours and SHort "Kata" 1 for an HOUR (only a stance and two moves) :o

Why dont you guys sit down with your "Masters" and DISCUSS the finer of the Finer points OF YOUR HISTORY AND LINEAGE. Talk about THAT for lets say hmmmm
4 hours? :rolleyes:

TWS

[Thunaric]

Okay, this is what I meant, when learning tai chi at my shaolin do school the movements have always been taught in a very segmented way. At least this is the result in how the students all perform it -- white through black. For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way. Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.

I did have one instructor that was an anomaly in regards to this. I have had 7 instructors for the tai chi portion in my 2 years at shaolin do. :confused:

[themeecer]

For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way.
Um .. which tai chi are you talking about? I have no horses mane manuever in mine.


Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.

While on the subject of videos .. if you want to see some good examples check out Paul Lam or Yang Jwing Ming. If you and I are speaking of the same Tai Chi form, then there shouldn't be any 'stops' in it.

I did have one instructor that was an anomaly in regards to this. I have had 7 instructors for the tai chi portion in my 2 years at shaolin do. :confused:

7 instructors?!?!? Were you a problem child or something, and no one wanted to teach you. Hehe That is a lot of changes. I contend that your main reason for your problems is what we discussed in PMs, and I hope you don't mind me sharing. You are taking two different programs at the same time. That is way too much material to assimilate at any level. I have always been a fan of learning the external first then the internal for the sole fact of the conditioning properties. It is a lot easier to whip you into shape with the external first. (Granted done correctly, tai chi is awesome for the legs .. you should see how sexy mine are now. Hehe)

[The Willow Sword]

I think that the move that he is talking about is called " Parting the Horses mane". although it has been called "parting the waves" as well and is a COMMON term for that move in your standard yang style tai chi. or what i like to call PRC yang style tai chi.

as for stops in tai chi. as i learned the Sd taichi form there were no stops persay but segments that transitioned in to the next set of moves(which were repeats of the same move done on the other side of the body(ie: parting the horses mane on the right,,then parting the horses mane on the left).

haha you know its funny about the tai chi,,you are taught to do it reeeeeel slooowwww. but in fact you are moving slow but not at a snails crawl,,that snails crawling slowness in the Sd tai chi that i was learning inhibits chi flow and is counter productive in my opinion.

as for Buddah fist in SD. that was the ONLY form that i really liked in the system,,but it has NOTHING to do with chen style tai chi nor is it a sister to tai chi chuan. it is another hybrid of what sd likes to do and claim as the "lost" forms.
although i did see Mullins do the Sd buddha fist form and he did it rather well,,AND the SD 14th white crane. i also liked that one as well. seems to be the only form in sd that actually looks and feels like real CMA, in my opinion.

Peace,,,TWS

[Thunaric]

Parting the Horses Mane

Yes, that is what I am talking about in the 24 form. At the point where you step forward and rock back on the forward foot, everyone in my classes kind of stops there for a few seconds before turning back the other way. Again though, all of this is usually taught by a first degree or second degree black sash so I think alot of mimicking goes on. Somebody started doing it this way and it became the norm. And also, we were told once that we should take 20 minutes to do the 24 form, and this is very slow indeed. Dunno on the ramifications positive, negative or neutral on this.

I agree that there was probably too much I was learning at once. But, it was sold to me that way. Originally I had planned to just learn the "kung fu" side in the normal progression but an e-mail was put out by the then sifu of the school that learning both would be a good idea and there was even a special rate if you did them both at the same time.

[themeecer]

Oh .. you're talking about tai chi 24. I don't know that one.

[Golden Tiger]

Why dont you guys sit down with your "Masters" and DISCUSS the finer of the Finer points OF YOUR HISTORY AND LINEAGE. Talk about THAT for lets say hmmmm
4 hours? :rolleyes:
TWS

Why do you sit down with one of them sometime and we will discuss the finer points of getting that bug out of your a$$.

You appear to be a very bitter boy TWS, let it go....you will feel so much better in the long run. I am very sorry that your trainiing wasn't up to the "challenge", but please, try to move on.

[lxtruong]

I like to sit around and BS as much as the next guy, but I don't think that any even semi serious martial artist would say that 4 hours spent discussing lineage is a better use of time than 4 hours discussing mechanics of techniques.

[MasterKiller]

I have noticed that several times on this and other forums you have made statements of other's looks. Would you show us a pic of yourself so that we may critique it? As you are in your middle 30s giving us your age is not needed. One showing us how "ripped" you are would suffice.
HA HA HA HA
I bet it gets posted right after Hedge's video :D :eek: :rolleyes: ;)
That's me with the monk spade from Taiji Legacy 2003.

I'm 32 years old, 6'0, 175 lbs. I have a 32-in. waist.

You want a closer look? Come to OKC.

Now, you pony up old man.

[The Willow Sword]

Why do you sit down with one of them sometime and we will discuss the finer points of getting that bug out of your a$$.

This reads like a veiled threat to me :rolleyes: haha but i like the give and take here with you GT. But you know something? It really doesnt change anything. Your school will always be less than what it really could be in the martial arts realm.
because of what your school claims and how it is taught it will ALWAYS be the fake shaolin school and non cma.

And you and the rest of your "kin" will go around in forums like these reasoning and rationalizing what the rest of us already know. this is entertainment here you DO realize that? You guys are entertainment,,with the exception of a few Sd people here who seem to have a decent head on their shoulders.

It must be hard for you GT and the other good soldiers there to know that you have absolutely NO respect in the martial arts community,,and if yoour school even tried to go outside your perspective range you would get laughed off the floor.
Its aggravating i know that you are unable to have a decent conversation with people who actually KNOW about shaolin martial arts and chinese martial arts for that matter.
I will bet it is also aggravating when you are talking with some other martial artists and they ask you what you study and you tell them that the dynamic changes in the conversation,,it then becomes a "justification" session.
Can you fight GT? well im sure that you can,,any fool can put up their fists and assume a stance and go at it...but that is about all that you are capable of. and there is always someone better isnt there?
hey i have realized that fact of life and i have no regrets in my challenges and my losses and my victories,,,the regret i do have is that i allowed myself to be in your organization for as long as i did.

as far as letting things go GT? whether i want to accept it or not Sd will be a part of me,,even though i disregard everything i was taught there now,,but if i can use my experiences there to my advantage and educate people whenever i am asked about your school i will do so and i am GLAD at EVERY time i persuade a person to look elsewhere and it makes me feel GOOD to know that i have steered someone to utilize his/her time dedication and money to something else WORTHY OF IT. :)


Peace,,,TWS

[BM2]

That's me with the monk spade from Taiji Legacy 2003.

I'm 32 years old, 6'0, 175 lbs. I have a 32-in. waist.

You want a closer look? Come to OKC.

Now, you pony up old man.

Actually, it would be better if you did one without a shirt as I will be posting. Just a little more time with the Adobe photoshop and I will be done.

[Starchaser107]

nice kick bm2.
I wish I were that flexible,
but alas the blasted pepsi cola continues to ruin my martial arts day by day.
In 2 years I'll be 30 I'll post a pic then if this thread is still alive :p

HAHAHAHA! :cool:

[MasterKiller]

What are you, like 18 in it? That's a big step back from 44....or even 32.

I posted a recent pic.

When I was 18, I was pretty cut, too.

I would post a 26 year-old pic, but I was just 6 then and it probably wouldn't do much for you. :rolleyes:

Like I said, let's see you now, old man.

[BM2]

LOL!
I meant I would post the one I am "doctoring" with photoshop! Still trying to find some pic on the web so that I can can switch heads with it!
Here I am polishing off the last of the strawberry shortcake when I had to read that. :eek:
Edit: Man I can't believe I look this bad :eek:

[cerebus]

Dam BM2, you need to do some pushups, or lift some weights... or something. :p

[Starchaser107]

Or take up kung fu.


haha jus kidd'n
couldnt resist.

[BM2]

That's what happens when you get into these "challanges" ! Remember to post your pic!

[Starchaser107]

It's in that issue of kung fu magazine that you're holding up :eek:

[Golden Tiger]

:rolleyes: ................

[Judge Pen]

For instance with the Horses Mane maneuver when you are finished with the hand movements and the twist to the side, it is taught that there is a stop before moving back the other way. Now, I'm sure the higher ups don't do it this way, but nobody really watches and offers critiques or corrections while the students are going about forms or moves. So, the result is very "sharp" stops between each move. Comparing this to other tai chi I have seen, mostly on video, it is very different.


Nope, it should flow together. Granted most Sd people do 24 slower than others, but the flow should still be present.

Meece, I'll show you 24. It's a good introductory form and flows right into 64 so you don't even have to stop when practicing the two. ;)

And yes brother Sean it does depend on the style, but all that's been taught out in SD is Yang and Chen (and whatever sister Buddha fist is).

[Judge Pen]

as for Buddah fist in SD. that was the ONLY form that i really liked in the system,,but it has NOTHING to do with chen style tai chi nor is it a sister to tai chi chuan. it is another hybrid of what sd likes to do and claim as the "lost" forms.
although i did see Mullins do the Sd buddha fist form and he did it rather well,,AND the SD 14th white crane. i also liked that one as well. seems to be the only form in sd that actually looks and feels like real CMA, in my opinion.

Master Mullins learned those forms first and then taught them out. He traveled with Master Sin in China and Indonesia during that time. Those forms are very difficult to do correctly, but among the prettier and more flowing forms we have.

20 minutes is too long. It usually takes me 10 to 12 to do 24. I don't think it inhibits chi flow and relaxiation if done right, but it is harder to remain relaxed doing it at that speed. It does increase balance, flexibility, and focus.

[Starchaser107]

It's in the magazine, a picture from taiji legacy last year. A forum members pic, I'm there on the ground in the group shot with sow choy, norther practicioner, philbert and meatshake. Just look for the fellow that looks just like my avatar, it will say starchaser107.
I can't find my disk to upload any pics and consequently I'm very grumpy. :mad:

[MasterKiller]

Meece, I'll show you 24. It's a good introductory form and flows right into 64 so you don't even have to stop when practicing the two. ;)

Save yourself a trip. He can watch it here:

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

[Jhapa]

Save yourself a trip. He can watch it here:

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

[Judge Pen]

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

It doesn't look too different than the way I was taught. Granted there are appreciable differences, but nothing earth-shattering. I've seen students of William Chen do this form differntly than the lady in the video and then the way I perform 24. Even though it's a compulsory form, it does differ slightly from teacher to teacher.

[Starchaser107]

very very true

[MasterKiller]

Teachers tend to mark forms. For instance, my Sifu added a slight arm movement to move 13. Right Heel Kick. That way, if he sees someone do it that way, he knows either he taught them or one of his students did.

Most of our forms are taught 'marked' for that purpose.

[wdl]

it looks different from what i was taught at SD.

Like JP said, it's not that far off.

Actually there are several things about the form I like better about the way she does it, then there are several ways I like the way I've been taught better. But they are subtle differences.

Examples would be, I like the way I've got Posture 10(waving hands to the clouds) better, particularly the footwork. However I like her golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence better than mine.



-Will

[Judge Pen]

Examples would be, I like the way I've got Posture 10(waving hands to the clouds) better, particularly the footwork. However I like her golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence better than mine.


I think her flexibility and control have a lot to do with that Will.

[themeecer]

Thanks JP and MK. I do have the 24 forms on DVD by Paul Lam. I just never had the need to learn it. If I was ever going to learn a form from a DVD ... his would be the one to use. There shouldn't be much variation in the way it is done on the DVD than the way it was taught out to SD since it was created less than 50 years ago. I have learned some of his tai chi for arthritis form. I had a student who dropped out but who is coming back who has horrible knees and really has never done anything athletic in her life. I've also looked into attending one of his seminars. I like the fact that he had delt with this same problem and overcame it and he is also a medical doctor.

Now chen tai chi is another story ... I am chomping at the bit to learn that. I hope it is taught out again. Though I am sure I will be regretting these words when I'm halfway through that ridiculously long form.

[Judge Pen]

Now chen tai chi is another story ... I am chomping at the bit to learn that. I hope it is taught out again. Though I am sure I will be regretting these words when I halfway through that ridiculously long form.

I'm learning Chen now. It's a great form with lots of fighting applications, but it gets so redundant in places that it's hard to keep it all straight in your mind.

[wdl]

I think her flexibility and control have a lot to do with that Will.


I know it does with the golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence. The way I apply the footwork out of the Number 10 movement is more pronounced in how I I was taught. Like how side B of the 1st Hua Two-Man set steps in and stands while countering the joint lock. The way I've got the 24 set now it's easier for me to thinking about the application of the footwork while I do the 24 set than the way she does it. I like her snake creeps down the hole because it's prettier. Daniel teaches it like that, I think I might start doing it that way. LOL

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I know it does with the golden rooster/snake creeps down the hole sequence. The way I apply the footwork out of the Number 10 movement is more pronounced in how I I was taught. Like how side B of the 1st Hua Two-Man set steps in and stands while countering the joint lock. The way I've got the 24 set now it's easier for me to thinking about the application of the footwork while I do the 24 set than the way she does it. I like her snake creeps down the hole because it's prettier. Daniel teaches it like that, I think I might start doing it that way. LOL

-Will

I think that I'm guilty of modifying my forms slightly based upon the applications that I recognize in the form. If I see a throw in a certina sequence, then I start to favor the techniques that imply that technique and make them more prominent. Example: Short Form # 12.

[MasterKiller]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p

[Judge Pen]

Nice tat man. I didn't know you were the arm band type, but, then again, you are from Oklahoma! :D

[MasterKiller]

Celtic band on the left, celtic cross on the right. And maybe a couple of others I'm not showing until you buy me dinner. ;)

[Fu-Pow]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p
















*Vomits*


















*Vomits again*


















*Vomits bile*

[MasterKiller]

Too much man for you, Fu?

[The Willow Sword]

you guys showing off your bare chest and tats and all and your comments are wayyy too h0m0'esq. :eek: :eek: unless you guys ARE h0m0s and then i respect your choice in life and what you were apparently born with,,or some sh!t like that.

If your not then WTF is the matter with you guys??????? :confused:


PEACE,,,TWS

[themeecer]

It is a sausage love fest in here.

[Starchaser107]

The one time everybody seems to be getting along fine is when everyone is naked. :D
bless.

[Starchaser107]

oh yeah ,
and cool tatoos MK

[wdl]

I think that I'm guilty of modifying my forms slightly based upon the applications that I recognize in the form. If I see a throw in a certina sequence, then I start to favor the techniques that imply that technique and make them more prominent. Example: Short Form # 12.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Then there are things that become hibitual that aren't there. Watch when I test next week, see if I don't put a cover/shed in with Number 4 sparring technique before the sweep. That is, if you guys are awake over there while all of the brown sashes are doing that stuff. lol

-Will

[BM2]

Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. I guess I have to fake that Hedge video and put in my two boys :D I'll get the fake blood out too!
LMAO at the last couple of pages of this thread, at least it got light hearted for a change. While I may disagree with you most of the time, I will admit that there are some valid points raised by you. But you need to ask yourself this.................Do I really want to be in agreement with the likes of fred stanford? That ole fish eye fool? I just as well start calling you Grady ;)

[wdl]

Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. I guess I have to fake that Hedge video and put in my two boys :D I'll get the fake blood out too!

Just use Macho Man Randy Savage and Jake the Snake. They're unemployeed and cheap these days. :D

-Will

[Fred Sanford]

But you need to ask yourself this.................Do I really want to be in agreement with the likes of fred stanford? That ole fish eye fool? I just as well start calling you Grady

Don't start with me. pretty much everyone on this forum can see what shaolin-do is(n't).

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great? I never have cared much for shaolin kung fu but his stuff is so mind numbingly bad that I'm almost at a loss for words, almost.

:D

[themeecer]

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great?

Sure, and the rest of us learned to fight real well to cover up that fact as well. :rolleyes:

[cerebus]

Aah yes. Being able to fight makes it "Authentic Shaolin". I guess I keep forgetting that part... :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

Aah yes. Being able to fight makes it "Authentic Shaolin". I guess I keep forgetting that part... :rolleyes:
Well you keep changing the criteria. Either you don't like our lineage or you don't think we 'understand' our forms or you don't think we can fight. I can't keep up with it all. I believe our lineage, I have compared the forms I specialize in to other practioners out there and found it to be the same, and I have used it to defend myself on multiple occasions. Satisfies me. Heck, you can argue lineage all day long while I am knocking your head into the ground, if you like. Since that is what some of you have proved you spend the most time at. (And no .. I don’t want to knock your head into the ground)

[cerebus]

Well, two of your points are things I've never argued against. These are: whether or not SD people can fight (as with ANY martial art, some can, some can't) and whether you understand your own forms (though you may not understand the forms from other arts which were added to SD by Sin The).

However while I have no problem with a martial art patterning some of what it does after the traditional arts of China, I'll never condone people claiming their art to be something which it most clearly is not. I just don't think students should be given false information about their art because they then take it to be the truth, in spite of a vast amount of evidence to the contrary (you are a good example of this yourself).

[MasterKiller]

You ever think that maybe Sin The got himself into such great shape to draw attention away from the fact that his martial arts knowledge really isn't all so great?Actually, I think it's pretty evident from the last few pages that he trimmed down, tanned, and got those muscles because he wanted to be a movie/TV star.

It looks like he has always been into working out and keeping fit, in some form or another. His work ethic, if nothing else, seems solid.

Well MK I didn't really think you would do it. Admit it. You guys just figured because I'm in front of a computer all day and into Star Wars that I'm some pudgy doughboy.

Just because I'm not very good at kung fu doesn't mean I don't work at it. :D

[Judge Pen]

Admit it. You guys just figured because I'm in front of a computer all day and into Star Wars that I'm some pudgy doughboy.


Nah, that would be an indictment against most of the online kung fu world.


Just because I'm not very good at kung fu doesn't mean I don't work at it. :D

That's something we can agree on.

[MasterKiller]

and I have used it to defend myself on multiple occasions. What kind of life are you leading that you've had to defend yourself on multiple occassions? Ihaven't been in a real fight in years. I think you need Jesus.

[BM2]

BM2,
That's about as good as I can get it. The lighting in my bedroom is dark so the flash fuks with the mirror. Anyway, where's that Hedge video....? :p

Video forthcoming.... ;)

I'm having trouble editing it and don't know how to use the software to upload it to the web so it may be awhile :eek: And if everyone keeps on posting about it then I will not put it on the web :p

[Golden Tiger]

Video forthcoming.... ;)

I'm having trouble editing it and don't know how to use the software to upload it to the web so it may be awhile :eek: And if everyone keeps on posting about it then I will not put it on the web :p


I think I have some vid of BM2 back when he was a young'en. If I was able to blue spot the others in the vid to protect the innocent, I would have to upload it.

[Starchaser107]

for topless shots I charge 250,000 a piece like Halle Berry.

[MasterKiller]

for topless shots I charge 250,000 a piece like Halle Berry.
No good. You must show nipples to be in the secret squirrel club.

[Judge Pen]

Is that Philbert in the background? He's wearing the same Sam top as my teacher! :D

[MasterKiller]

Yeah, that's Philbert. And that's a gay Wing Chun on-guard stance, too. :p

[Starchaser107]

Since you guys have been so nice what the heck. :D

[MasterKiller]

You got me and BM2 beat in the pec department. But at least I have a manly hairy chest. Chicks dig the fur, baby.

[Starchaser107]

I'm so hairless it's not funny. Man i'm 5 months shy of 28 and I don't even have a full beard yet. My moustache just started to take some real substance. It's a sad , sad state of things, so i try to compensate where I can. :(

[Judge Pen]

But at least I have a manly hairy chest. Chicks dig the fur, baby.

So do birds, fleas and small rodents, but I digress.

[MasterKiller]

Pony up, JP. Let's see those nipples.

[Judge Pen]

Pony up, JP. Let's see those nipples.

That post has disturbed me in so many ways I can't even say. But I have to confess that my nipples are covered with fur too.

[Fred Sanford]

Sure, and the rest of us learned to fight real well to cover up that fact as well.

Oh yea I forgot, what's your move golden cyborg pounds sand? something like that?

[red5angel]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(

[wdl]

Yeah, that's Philbert. And that's a gay Wing Chun on-guard stance, too. :p


The gayness is added too becaues the sam is like two sizes too big. :D


-Will

[Starchaser107]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(

Yet Ghey-ly you can't stop yourselves from looking. :rolleyes:

[themeecer]

What kind of life are you leading that you've had to defend yourself on multiple occassions? Ihaven't been in a real fight in years. I think you need Jesus.
Hehe Actually I have him even though I unfortunatly don't always act like him. How do I get myself in these situations? Heck if I know. Sometimes it has been in clubs with guys who have alcohol induced confidence and increased rudeness towards my dates. Actually clubs in various cities have constituted most of my confrontations as of late. In all other situations I can normally avoid things escalating to that point since I try to come off as a friendly guy, which is easier to pick up on when one is not full of alcohol, hormones, and loud music playing. Had some outside "in the streets." (Though the metropolis of Somerset doesn't have "streets.") Maybe I need to work more on coming off friendly.

[Golden Tiger]

this thread is starting to get really, really disturbing. I can't get a picture of JP and MK standing in front of webcams pinching their own nipples.....blech! :o :eek: :(


Please, for the love of god, get back on thread and bash SD. This is just wrong...so wrong in so many ways.

[Starchaser107]

hey don't ask for it if you can't handle it. ;)

[wdl]

Thinking good thoughts.... good thoughts..... good thoughts.....

Eliza Dushku...... Brooke Burke..... Kirsten Dunst......

oh much better. :)


-Will

[Starchaser107]

Don't forget Christina Milian

oooh baybee! :cool:

[wdl]

Don't forget Christina Milian

oooh baybee! :cool:


ooooooooooo

[BM2]

Don't know about the rest of y'all but I am LMAO. :D
I can see Gene now, sickos....they are just plain sickos and they are on my forum :eek:

[Fred Sanford]

Maybe I need to work more on coming off friendly.

Or work on not coming off like a wuss.

[MasterKiller]

Since you guys have been so nice what the heck. :D

What's your tats?

[Starchaser107]

On my arm, an ancient symbol representing the sun, and in the middle of that a variation of my western zodiac symbol Leo which i flipped. (This tattoo was made by dipping a syringe in india ink and repeatedly piercing the skin.)
On my chest a more contemporary line drawing of the sun inside it a Lotus.(By method of Tattoo Gun)

[red5angel]

Masterkiller, I didn't know you visited Germany! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7206279/)

[GeneChing]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

[wdl]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

It's because the horse has been flogged to death.


-Will

[MasterKiller]

What is it with nipplage and SD threads? (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35905&page=3)

BM2 started it.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782&page=57&pp=15

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

[wdl]

So far, only him, SC107 and I have been man enough to show our nipples. The rest of you boys need to pony up.

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I don't do porn. :rolleyes:

-Will

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D

[wdl]

pronounced : "I'm so out of shape that I'm ashamed to put myself on display" :D


ROFL. Well you know, it's still winter here and those Christmas and Thanksgiving pounds are still around. It also means I'm whiter than casper the ghost. It's rained so much here this winter I've not been able to get out either. So, if you want to be blinded by the light I'll be happy to enlighten you and do you a favor. :p

I'm single, I need a woman. If I thought that snapping a shot of my nipples and putting them here would get me a date I'd do it in a heartbeat. I seriously doubt anyone else who's single and looking for a date even if they have Jesse Ventura's nipples are going to score off this thread either. :D

-Will

[MasterKiller]

Maybe JP could keep you warm with his ewok-nipples.

[Starchaser107]

Gunda. Gunda
Acha nipple Gunda :cool:

[Starchaser107]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen practicing Spear Form (http://www.bobmcleod.com/ewok.gif)

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.

[sean_stonehart]

Nah, I'm much taller than that. More like Chewbacca than an Ewok.


Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

[Judge Pen]

Nah... you ain't that tall... maybe like more Obi Wan without a nice backwaxing...

I'm taller than you.

[sean_stonehart]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

[David Jamieson]

I'm so hairless it's not funny. Man i'm 5 months shy of 28 and I don't even have a full beard yet. My moustache just started to take some real substance. It's a sad , sad state of things, so i try to compensate where I can. :(

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

[wdl]

Indeed you are... but not Wookie difference in height... :)

Last time you corner judged up here weren't you in the ring with master reid and the white/yellow belts? Remember Wookie? The one that got DQ'd for excessive contact with master mullins standing there beside that ring?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

no worries man, once you're done with the HRT and the testosterone treatments and you get the wiggler installed, you'll grow hairs in places that you couldn't before the operation. :D

thanks so much for the encouragement.
I feel so much better about myself now.

[David Jamieson]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek:

[MasterKiller]

just remember to shave your runway! :eek: You coming in for a landing?

[David Jamieson]

ewww, no, no, no, no...

just a reminder to be courteous and it keeps yer shorts clean.

[sean_stonehart]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

[wdl]

Yep that was me & I thought it more a East Coast Sasquatch than a Wookie I was looking at... :eek:

ROFL. Wookie's a big guy. He has procreated recently and there is now a junior Miss Wookie. Scary thought. A female wookie.

-Will

[GeneChing]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...

[sean_stonehart]

Surely you remember the Star Wars Christmas Special? We got to meet Chewbacca's family in that, including his dirty-old-wookie pops, named Itchy, who uses some sort of cybersex machine featuring Diane Carroll, plus the first appearance of Boba Fett. It was so bad that Lucas had it all pulled - a grim prophesy about what was to come from Lucasfilms...


Oh Crap yes!!! "A Star Wars Christmas" was the name... the Empire did a home invasion on Chewie's place... didn't the cast make a special appearance in the last 30 seconds or so??

[Starchaser107]

Hey keep it above board. Nipples are fine but posterior isn't.
Why, cause I said so.
I'll have to ask Gene to speak to you about Colons.

[wdl]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

[Judge Pen]

"A Star Wars Christmas", YES! I've never heard of this. I must see if I can download it. Was this an SNL skit?

-Will

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.

[wdl]

No, it was an attempt to be serious. You won't find it on the net. Lucas destroyed it, I'm betting. It was that bad.


ROFL! YES! Dude, if it's out there I'll find it. Trust me. :)

-Will

[wdl]

A Shockwave Starwars Christmas (http://www.shockcomics.com/swxmas/)

[MasterKiller]

Never mention Star Wars X-mas again lest I bring the wrath.

At least you can still get "Droids" and "Ewok Adventures" on DVD.

[Starchaser107]

Caravan of Courage was pretty cool, but the battle for Endor was really sad :mad: ..what was the whole point of it all. it makes caravan's story seem so pointless.
Oh well... :(

[wdl]

Hahaha, I found it. The best thing I know how to compare it to would be that time as a small child, when you had the epiphany about Mister Roger's Neighborhood. George Lucas' punishment in hell will be having to watch it over and over again. :eek:

-Will

[BM2]

[QUOTE=Starchaser107]
I wish I were that flexible,

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

[wdl]

I was 25 in that pic. I am stiff where I used to flexible and flexible where I used to be stiff :o :p

You were 25 in the pic with the straight up side kick? How young were you when you acheived that?

-Will

[BM2]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

[wdl]

Well I can not get it up like that anymore but when my free sample pack of Enzyte arrives I will be stepping large like Bob! :cool:

HAHA.

But how young were you when you first were able to do that?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

I can get mine up but it's more to an angle and not completely straight like that. It has a slight bend. I guess if I work it every day I might eventually get it to go straight up. Maybe I can even do it so well that I'll get