Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 39

Judge Pen

09-09-2008, 04:40 AM

Yeah, I like open tournament so you get the exposure to other styles and different fighting styles of people. Why is it that Sin The' doesn't have an open tournament? Is his art to deadly? If so then why does he even hold a tournament each year? So he really can't use that as an excuse. Could it be that he doesn't want his students to see his other students getting beat by other styles?

:rolleyes: Dude, he has enough students under him so that he can have an annual tournament that just for his students. There's nothing wrong with that. I prefer an open style tournament myslef. Back when I trained and competed more regularly (i.e. pre-baby) I loved competing in an open tournament because I love crossing hands with other styles. But having a tournament among family is fun too. Kind of like backyard football at Thanksgiving.

naja

09-10-2008, 03:34 PM

Master Mullins is having a "fight day" ( local tournament ) at his kwoon this Saturday. It's just for SD students as well. It gives us a chance to get to know other SD students from area schools, and practice some sparring. I've never heard of anyone concerned that no other styles would be there, I know we're all thankful for the experiences we take away from it and are thankful that Master Garry is willing to put the time into organizing it for us.

If any of his students wanted to go to an open tournament, I doubt Master Garry would care a bit.

brucereiter

09-10-2008, 06:12 PM

Yeah, I like open tournament so you get the exposure to other styles and different fighting styles of people. Why is it that Sin The' doesn't have an open tournament? Is his art to deadly? If so then why does he even hold a tournament each year? So he really can't use that as an excuse. Could it be that he doesn't want his students to see his other students getting beat by other styles?

this leads me to a few questions:

why do i bother to read your posts?

why do you care what a person who studies shaolin do does?

why do your posts always seem passive aggressive ploys to make a negative comment?

if you are really concerned why not just go knock on the door of a shaolin do school and tell the people there what you think?

why are you so focused on that "famous" quote about shaolin do being too "deadly" for tournaments?

can i see some of your practice? you must be highly skilled.

with love and irony:-)

BentMonk

09-10-2008, 07:23 PM

mkriii - Dude, you studied SD 20 years ago and you still have all these issues? I'm not sure therapy would help, but you can try. As to having SD student's best interest at heart, thanks I guess but your concern and assistance are not necessary. Google is every one's friend. Anyone with access to a computer can make an informed decision about whatever pursuits they choose with a little typing and reading. Despite the efforts of yourself and several others across the net, SD continues to thrive. To see why the "general public is ignorant about MA" argument doesn't fly, refer to my above comments regarding Google. No one I know of who trains in any style of MA chose their current school based solely on 100% verifiable lineage. Most choose their school and or art based on the apparent skill of the instructor and their students, the price for lessons, the location of the school, and the class schedule as it relates to their lifestyle. Most people understand that mythical lineage claims are marketing tools. In today's MA world where you came from is not as important as where you are now, and where you are going in terms of your art's effectiveness in helping students achieve their training goals. I don't care if part or all of SD's history is fact or fiction. The fact remains that my time in SD has given me great physical and mental conditioning, and martial skills that I have applied effectively on the street and in the ring. I have known GM Sin for many years and I do not feel that he is doing anything other than passing on the story of SD's history as it was told to him. I have told him personally of the many times I have competed in events outside of SD. He has never been anything but encouraging towards me about it. Not once did he say I shouldn't be doing that. In fact most if not all of SD's upper ranks are fully aware of what I do. It is after all pointless for me to try and remain anonymous. I have never once been discouraged from competing outside of SD. If this was once the case with GM Sin, it isn't now. If this is the case with certain SD instructors, I don't see how they can have this attitude and still consider themselves to be following GM Sin's wishes. I am obviously not the only person to have had a positive experience with SD. You didn't. I'm sorry about that, but you really should go back and read most of your posts. You may or may not realize how foolish you make yourself appear. I hope you're happy in what ever art you're currently studying. If you are happy, go train and let us SD people be happy also. Just as you see little or no value in us spending time training in SD, we see little or no value in your attempts to "save" us from GM Sin and the evil SD machine. Give it up man, unless you just get off on being a troll. BTW if you're going to talk so much smack about how some one's art sucks, you might gain at least a speck of credibility by posting some video to show all of us poor unfortunate souls how awesome you and the art you study are, and why we should let ourselves be saved by your awesomeness. Without some proof in your pudding your posts are nothing more than a diversion only slightly more enjoyable than watching paint dry.

Judge Pen

09-10-2008, 07:23 PM

If any of his students wanted to go to an open tournament, I doubt Master Garry would care a bit.

From my experience, he is fine with it, but I always ask first because its the polite and respectful thing to do. Get your teacher's blessing.

Judge Pen

09-10-2008, 07:27 PM

You read my posts because you know i speak the truth. I care becuase I have your best interest at heart. I didn't realize my posts were passive aggresive ploys to make a neg comment. I have asked SD students these question but have not recieved a logical answer. The reason I'm so focused on that statement about being to deadly for tournaments is because GM Sin does not approve of his students competing on the open circuit against other styles but yet he has his own tournament for just SD people. So what he is saying is it's to deadly to use on the open circuit but it's not to deadly to use on your fellow SD brothers and sisters? Makes no sense. I've had several SD students say that they have been told that they may compete at tournaments but it's frowned apon and discouraged by GM sin. As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D That much I did learn from GM Sin when I studied SD back in the early 80's at the Sports Center on Richmond Road (behind McDonalds and what was then TW Lee's).

B.S. I've competed and its not frowned on. Master Garry used to host an open tournament in J.C., but stopped because it was too expensive. He had a student that fought in an MMA match in Louisville KY. Not only did he approve, he went and watched him.

Your "facts" are 20 years old.

Judge Pen

09-10-2008, 07:30 PM

BTW if you're going to talk so much smack about how some one's art sucks, you might gain at least a speck of credibility by posting some video to show all of us poor unfortunate souls how awesome you and the art you study are, and why we should let ourselves be saved by your awesomeness. Without some proof in your pudding your posts are nothing more than a diversion only slightly more enjoyable than watching paint dry.

It will never happen. Mark is too content in talking about how good his teachers are instead. I know both be reputation and believe them to be great martial artists, but having a skilled teacher doesn't mean that you are any good.

MasterKiller

09-10-2008, 07:47 PM

Not only did he approve, he went and watched him. His teacher didn't corner for him?:confused:
Who ran the corner?

naja

09-10-2008, 08:47 PM

From my experience, he is fine with it, but I always ask first because its the polite and respectful thing to do. Get your teacher's blessing.

oh, I have no desire to do an open tournament. I only mentioned it to give perspective of one who enjoys atmosphere the "SD only" sparring.

Lamassu

09-10-2008, 09:22 PM

As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D

I call BULLSH!T!!!! You don't know any kung-fu whatsoever, and you lie when you claim to know the Ng family. Why else won't you show off your skills? You're afraid of baqualin, and you won't go near a SD kwoon because you know you'll be exposed as the charlatan that you are.

BTW, I must commend you on your troll skills, that 'shaolin ninja' tard didn't last as long as you. Well done flamer.

brucereiter

09-10-2008, 10:35 PM

You read my posts because you know i speak the truth. I care becuase I have your best interest at heart. I didn't realize my posts were passive aggresive ploys to make a neg comment.

be honest with yourself.

I have asked SD students these question but have not recieved a logical answer. The reason I'm so focused on that statement about being to deadly for tournaments is because GM Sin does not approve of his students competing on the open circuit against other styles but yet he has his own tournament for just SD people. So what he is saying is it's to deadly to use on the open circuit but it's not to deadly to use on your fellow SD brothers and sisters? Makes no sense.

try to understand the word context.

when doing any kind of competition there are rules and the basic safety of your opponent is a concern. to use the mma paradigm (you can use google to look it up :-) ) as an example in the ring they will punch/kick/grapple etc but if you take most mma guys out of the "ring" and put them in a self defense situation say where they defend their wife every thing changes and what they do there may not be suitable for competition. does that make sense?

I've had several SD students say that they have been told that they may compete at tournaments but it's frowned apon and discouraged by GM sin.

so what?

As for you seeing some of my practice.....sure. You may see me practice any time you want. Just pay me $20 per practice session that you watch. Remember, no free lessons. :D That much I did learn from GM Sin when I studied SD back in the early 80's at the Sports Center on Richmond Road (behind McDonalds and what was then TW Lee's).

blah blah blah it is hard to understand you through all of your blah blah blah lol.

it would be nice to see what you do to help "us" understand where you are coming from. are you afraid to share your martial insights? is what you do a secret?

mkriii

09-10-2008, 10:56 PM

I call BULLSH!T!!!! You don't know any kung-fu whatsoever, and you lie when you claim to know the Ng family. Why else won't you show off your skills? You're afraid of baqualin, and you won't go near a SD kwoon because you know you'll be exposed as the charlatan that you are.

BTW, I must commend you on your troll skills, that 'shaolin ninja' tard didn't last as long as you. Well done flamer.

Is this what you really think? ............ LMFAO.
Well lets see, how can I prove to you that I am who I say I am and that I am part of the Ng family. I would have you call my sifu but he is living in China now working for an electronics company that is based out of Sichuan Province. You may e-mail his brother to ask him or you may call Sijo Rusty Gray in Tennessee to ask him who I am or you may call Master Bruce Linville also in Tennessee and ask him if I'm a student under John Dufresne who is a direct student of GrandMaster Dr. John Wing Loc Ng. I also studied under GM Ng for 2 and a half years before studying under John Dufresne. How else can I prove to you.....here we go.....Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy was owned and runned by GM Ng. The school was on Regency Road. John Ng had a big dog named Tojo, it was a Japanese Akida. The teachers there were Eric Nesson, John Dufresne, Mark Burgher, Tony McIntire, Wes Allen, and Julie Frederick. Some of the other students of John Ng's were Kim Warner, Mary The' Fernandez, Gary Dezarn, and William Quam. What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?

Baqualin

09-10-2008, 11:04 PM

B.S. I've competed and its not frowned on. Master Garry used to host an open tournament in J.C., but stopped because it was too expensive. He had a student that fought in an MMA match in Louisville KY. Not only did he approve, he went and watched him.

Your "facts" are 20 years old.

It's never been frowned on...35 years old info....GMS used to hold open tourneys....stopped because of restrictions placed on techniques allowed by the national organizations of that time......pretty much all the upper levels have competed on the national & local level at one time or another...some still do....most have done very well I might add. So to make a long story short....Mark knows nothing of SD today or twenty years ago....who really cares.....showing up to a tourney with a frog top trimmed in red with jeans and Iguana boots kinda paints a picture of a village idiot....I don't think Mark will really do that.....just looking to stir up sh!t for attention or he's jealous because we love the SD family and what we do.

Mark, you PM'd me with an interest in Tai Chi and I responded with my phone number (weeks ago) and an open invitation to call me anytime to talk, possibly meet and see if I could be of help to you.....have you picked up the phone and called me, no....you also know that I will be out of town for this gathering...first time in years I've missed one......If you really want to meet....then do so and quit your BS....I have no quarrel with you or anyone else....as I told you I only care about teaching, helping people to have a better quality of life and give what has been given to me. These are some of the things I have learned from GMS & EML...not just kicking someones a$$...it's called respect .....hope you can learn this too someday.
You know my phone # and where I teach...use it!
BQ

Lamassu

09-10-2008, 11:05 PM

What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?

Oh I don't know... maybe honor that little sparring match with Baqualin? All you've proven is you've done your homework online (well done), but everytime you open your mouth, nothing but sh!t spews out. Why should I bend over backwards to prove your claims, when a simple meet and greet w/ Baqualin will alieve all doubts? You talk a lot of smack about how SD sux but you never back it up. You want to come to the upcoming Lexington SD Gathering, but you're afraid to set foot in one of our kwoons; you're afraid to even MEET one of us face to face. No anger, no fighting, no p!ssing contest, just put your skills where your mouth is.

mkriii

09-10-2008, 11:09 PM

It's never been frowned on...35 years old info....GMS used to hold open tourneys....stopped because of restrictions placed on techniques allowed by the national organizations of that time......pretty much all the upper levels have competed on the national & local level at one time or another...some still do....most have done very well I might add. So to make a long story short....Mark knows nothing of SD today or twenty years ago....who really cares.....showing up to a tourney with a frog top trimmed in red with jeans and Iguana boots kinda paints a picture of a village idiot....I don't think Mark will really do that.....just looking to stir up sh!t for attention or he's jealous because we love the SD family and what we do.

Mark, you PM'd me with an interest in Tai Chi and I responded with my phone number (weeks ago) and an open invitation to call me anytime to talk, possibly meet and see if I could be of help to you.....have you picked up the phone and called me, no....you also know that I will be out of town for this gathering...first time in years I've missed one......If you really want to meet....then do so and quit your BS....I have no quarrel with you or anyone else....as I told you I only care about teaching, helping people to have a better quality of life and give what has been given to me. These are some of the things I have learned from GMS & EML...not just kicking someones a$$...it's called respect .....hope you can learn this too someday.
You know my phone # and where I teach...use it!
BQ

No I actually didn't know you were going to be out of town for this event. I actually am going to it to watch.

Baqualin

09-10-2008, 11:14 PM

No I actually didn't know you were going to be out of town for this event. I actually am going to it to watch.

You should if you read the response to your PM the other day.
BQ

mkriii

09-10-2008, 11:16 PM

no haven't read them lately but I will now.

Judge Pen

09-10-2008, 11:37 PM

Is this what you really think? ............ LMFAO.
Well lets see, how can I prove to you that I am who I say I am and that I am part of the Ng family. I would have you call my sifu but he is living in China now working for an electronics company that is based out of Sichuan Province. You may e-mail his brother to ask him or you may call Sijo Rusty Gray in Tennessee to ask him who I am or you may call Master Bruce Linville also in Tennessee and ask him if I'm a student under John Dufresne who is a direct student of GrandMaster Dr. John Wing Loc Ng. I also studied under GM Ng for 2 and a half years before studying under John Dufresne. How else can I prove to you.....here we go.....Four Seasons Kung Fu & Wu Shu Academy was owned and runned by GM Ng. The school was on Regency Road. John Ng had a big dog named Tojo, it was a Japanese Akida. The teachers there were Eric Nesson, John Dufresne, Mark Burgher, Tony McIntire, Wes Allen, and Julie Frederick. Some of the other students of John Ng's were Kim Warner, Mary The' Fernandez, Gary Dezarn, and William Quam. What else do I need to say to you to prove I am who I say I am and that I trained under who I said I trained under.?

Mark, we get it. You're part of the Ng lineage. So you going to post a video of yourself now or keep talking about your pedigree? Like I said, having good teachers doesn't make you a good student.

mkriii

09-11-2008, 12:01 AM

I don't have a video of me and if I did I wouldn't know how to post it and thirdly I don't have a computer at home, only at work.

bodhi warrior

09-11-2008, 12:22 AM

If mark goes to the tournament he is going to see some very bad kung fu and some very good kung fu. I've been guilty of judging the "bad" kung fu in the past, but have since realized that almost all the participants are real people with real jobs and families. When you have so many other priorities developing a good form goes to the back burner, you practice as much as your time allows.
I myself have a family and full time job so I get to practice about an hour a day. I'm not as good as I could be if I trained 4 hours a day.
So Mark, if you do go try not to judge to harshly. But you will see some guys who can really throw down.

By the way, anyone know anything about this shaolin black tiger broadsword form? Has it been taught before? And is it part of our black tiger system?

Judge Pen

09-11-2008, 12:27 AM

I don't have a video of me and if I did I wouldn't know how to post it and thirdly I don't have a computer at home, only at work.

I didn't either. I filmed myself at an open tournament.

Its easy to post at youtube. Even a non-computer savy person like me can do it.

So you do all your posting on the company dime? Anyway, I'm sure a number of people would help you download the video.

kwaichang

09-11-2008, 12:46 AM

OPen tourneys are a political joke I competed for years and know what I am saying. As far as being "too deadly" I believe the words used is to lethal there is a difference in my mind I do not know of many or any tournaments that allow eye pokes groin grabs or single knuckle strikes or knee kicks or break locks etc and that is a portion of what is in SD . There are basically 5-7 tech used in tourneys 5 kicks and 4 punches etc. So yes SD is if trained as it should be is too lethal for tourneys, The tech used in tourneys are watered down tag matches . KC

Baqualin

09-11-2008, 12:46 AM

peace&love

09-11-2008, 03:09 AM

It seems that Mark has gotten everybody fired up again. That's unfortunate. I currently study SD and enjoy it. I looked at all the CMA schools available to me and Shaolin Do was the best fit. As mentioned before by another post, I did indeed like many others factored in schedule, price, and the personality/dedication of the sifu and not the system so much. I have met many of the people Mark mentions and have found most of them, such as Sifu Gray, to be very open to other styles and training methods. He has even showed up to our school in the past to share technique and network. I have always found him to be very kind and respectful. Mark is very passionate about his style and that's okay, but I wish he would be at peace with others who make the best choices and decisions for themselves.

Most styles or systems have closed tournaments. It is an opportunity to meet others with the same interests and see old friends and make new ones. I have found closed tournaments to be more of a family reunion than a competition. But that's just my point of view. Open tournaments are fun and SD or anyone in it has never discouraged me from participated in one. I have even had the honor to be invited to private tournaments outside of SD for which I am grateful.

Hopefully, this post will return to sharing knowledge, news, and ideas for a greater good and not be used as a slamfest on other styles. It's obvious from previous posts that SD practitioners are not going to change their minds about things. Simply respect it and move on your on path. If it makes you at peace with the world and a better, productive member of society, that is good and that is the essence of kung fu in my opinion.

kwaichang

09-11-2008, 04:17 AM

I Have known R Gray for approx 28 years and unless he has changed alot he is still arrogant self centered and a rip off KC

kungfujunky

09-11-2008, 09:17 AM

here he is again the bi polar mkriiiiass

man your a joke

i posted vids of me doing half ass **** kung fu

all you have done is blah blah blah

your a coward sir.

plain and simple.

Judge Pen

09-11-2008, 12:58 PM

peace and love is right. I should remember my promise to just ignore mark. I've got enough pressure in my life; i don't need any more negative energy from some troll on a forum.

kwaichang

09-11-2008, 12:59 PM

Did you notice how Mrk got real nice when he hurt his back ? I guess he feels better now KC

Judge Pen

09-11-2008, 01:05 PM

Did you notice how Mrk got real nice when he hurt his back ? I guess he feels better now KC

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Baqualin

09-11-2008, 04:24 PM

peace and love is right. I should remember my promise to just ignore mark. I've got enough pressure in my life; i don't need any more negative energy from some troll on a forum.

I was hoping you would remember that.:D
BQ

bodhi warrior

09-12-2008, 01:01 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4

Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.

brucereiter

09-12-2008, 05:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4

Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.

what types of differences do you notice?

i thought it was a good demo from a variety of students with varying ages, skill sets, understandings and length of time practicing the martial arts.

bodhi warrior

09-12-2008, 01:11 PM

what types of differences do you notice?

i thought it was a good demo from a variety of students with varying ages, skill sets, understandings and length of time practicing the martial arts.

Not saying it was bad, just different. In lohan chien alot of postures were just different.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 06:06 PM

mkriii

09-12-2008, 06:11 PM

okay, sorry guys. I did say I was going to behave didn't I. No more neg comments I promise. I'm sorry. Honestly. I had a relapse there for a few minutes. It won't happen again.

So whats everyone's plan for the weekend?

brucereiter

09-12-2008, 06:21 PM

Not saying it was bad, just different. In lohan chien alot of postures were just different.

i thought some was good and some was bad. this is one of the things i liked about it though is it showed that anyone can enjoy this practice ... normal people ...

tattooedmonk

09-12-2008, 06:24 PM

And what makes SD more lethal or deadly than any other style?Nothing. Lethal techniques are lethal techniques........

tattooedmonk

09-12-2008, 06:27 PM

BentMonk

09-12-2008, 06:34 PM

He must have learned that from GM Sin then because GM Sin is the con man of all con men. I mean come on, he charges money for every little thing. You "sin" the money and you "hwang" the diploma.

There are many in the martial art and fitness community that charge for each seminar and DVD they offer. Most of them charge much more than GM Sin. Why do you single him out? Just because someone offers a seminar or DVD does not mean that anyone is obligated to buy them. I have went to many of GM Sin's seminars, but I've probably missed more than I've attended. I have yet to be disappointed with any seminar I've been to. I knew going in that it was not possible to completely learn the form and all of it's nuances in one afternoon. The DVD helped solve that problem. I nor anyone I know in SD has ever been pressured into attending a seminar. Neither have I or anyone I know in SD been treated differently by GM Sin or any other person in SD because we do not attend every seminar that is offered. The fact that several hundred people regularly attend GM Sin's seminars proves that they see some genuine value in what he offers. If he were the con man that you allege, word would have spread quickly after the first seminar and attendance would have plummeted. The exact opposite is what has occurred. Your own words prove that your troll fu is weak. Perhaps your time would be better spent training in your own awesome style and improving your own awesomeness. BTW, where's that awesome video of you doing "real" kung fu? :D

tattooedmonk

09-12-2008, 06:38 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Io7zkTNiS4

Just found this on youtube. I noticed they do lohan chien, lien u chang and others very different from the way I was taught.I noticed this too. Overall it was pretty good. I noticed that there was what appeared to be flailing of the arms, legs and less focused intent. Most people are not Professional Martial Artist so I take this into account.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 07:19 PM

here he is again the bi polar mkriiiiass

man your a joke

i posted vids of me doing half ass **** kung fu

all you have done is blah blah blah

your a coward sir.

plain and simple.

Your the one that said your kung fu was half a$$, not me. And as for me posting a video of me, I don't have a video nor do I know how to post it even if I had one.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 07:21 PM

Then why not delete the post??? You have issues, dude!

Done. I Deleted posts.

Lamassu

09-12-2008, 07:24 PM

Your the one that said your kung fu was half a$$, not me. And as for me posting a video of me, I don't have a video nor do I know how to post it even if I had one.

Okay, then just honor that meet and greet with Bagualin then. Ng's Family Martial Arts DO encourage honor, don't they? Why is it so hard for you to just meet the man?

mkriii

09-12-2008, 07:31 PM

There are many in the martial art and fitness community that charge for each seminar and DVD they offer. Most of them charge much more than GM Sin. Why do you single him out? Just because someone offers a seminar or DVD does not mean that anyone is obligated to buy them. I have went to many of GM Sin's seminars, but I've probably missed more than I've attended. I have yet to be disappointed with any seminar I've been to. I knew going in that it was not possible to completely learn the form and all of it's nuances in one afternoon. The DVD helped solve that problem. I nor anyone I know in SD has ever been pressured into attending a seminar. Neither have I or anyone I know in SD been treated differently by GM Sin or any other person in SD because we do not attend every seminar that is offered. The fact that several hundred people regularly attend GM Sin's seminars proves that they see some genuine value in what he offers. If he were the con man that you allege, word would have spread quickly after the first seminar and attendance would have plummeted. The exact opposite is what has occurred. Your own words prove that your troll fu is weak. Perhaps your time would be better spent training in your own awesome style and improving your own awesomeness. BTW, where's that awesome video of you doing "real" kung fu? :D

Its not that he charges for seminars and DVD's. I have NO problem with that. Its the part about making it a requirment to go to these seminars to learn a required form and having to pay for it on top of your monthly dues you already pay. I thought thats why you paid monthly dues? And when you sign up they don't tell you this. I've had several people tell me this is true. But it doesn't happen untill like brown belt.

Eternal Student

09-12-2008, 07:42 PM

Its not that he charges for seminars and DVD's. I have NO problem with that. Its the part about making it a requirment to go to these seminars to learn a required form and having to pay for it on top of your monthly dues you already pay. I thought thats why you paid monthly dues? And when you sign up they don't tell you this. I've had several people tell me this is true. But it doesn't happen untill like brown belt.

This is absolutely NOT true. None of the seminars that are taught are required to advance. Some seminars require that you have attended previous ones because they build off material that was taught in them. Get your facts straight, troll.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 07:46 PM

It was posted that this was true by one of your own not to long ago. Just going by what was said.

Eternal Student

09-12-2008, 08:19 PM

It was posted that this was true by one of your own not to long ago. Just going by what was said.

OK, so show us this post.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 09:09 PM

OK, so show us this post.

okay, give me a minute and I'll post it.

BentMonk

09-12-2008, 09:10 PM

mrkiii - I'd be very interested in seeing that post as well. NONE of the seminars GM Sin has offered were forms required for rank advancement. If there are any SD instructors turning required material into a seminar, I would consider that instructor a direct contradiction to the example shown by GM Sin. I have never heard of this practice from anyone other than you, so until I see some proof I'm just going to consider the source and party on. All of what you have said about SD has been shown to be inaccurate. I am a student of the second SD school opened and I have been around a long time. I have yet to see first hand ANY of the BS you and others spew about SD and GM Sin. Until I do see it with my own eyes or hear it with my own ears, I will continue to give such BS all the credibility and consideration it deserves...none.

As to your excuse for not posting video...I call BS. If you were truly motivated, it is very easy to find a video camera to use. Most video cameras are not hard to operate. My nine year old daughter can operate ours just fine. In fact I may let her shoot the footage of me I plan on posting very soon. Posting a video on YouTube is very self explanatory. If you'd like I can have my fifteen year old son PM you instructions. In case you missed it, the point of my sarcasm is to say that you have no intention of posting any video. You are content to hide behind your keyboard. I am certain any video I post will be a source of great amusement for years to come. That's o.k. by me. 39 years of having people notice the fact that I walk kind of funny has made me pretty thick skinned. I also believe that if I'm going to sit behind my own keyboard and talk smack, I can man up and put myself out there for everyone to take a shot at me. :D

mkriii

09-12-2008, 09:16 PM

Eternal Student

09-12-2008, 09:38 PM

http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/animal-forms-styles/19987-wanted-info-shaolin-do-karate-27.html

post #263 on the thread entitled "wanted: info on Shaolin Do" posted by wonderingsoul says that I am correct in what I say. He even goes on to ask how he can legitimize SD so other styles won't laugh when SD is mentioned. Read it yourself.

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

mkriii

09-12-2008, 09:46 PM

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

Okay bud, I'll consede that you are right. I just wanted you to know where I was getting this info and that I wasn't just pulling it out of my ass. The information that I spew comes from sources. I don't just make them up because I think it sounds cool. When you have several people telling you something is true and they do that particular style you believe them.
Especially when its more than 1 person saying it. But now you get to see what other people besides me think about SD.

OTD

09-12-2008, 10:02 PM

mkriii

So how is The "Jade_Dragon_03" Doing these days?

OTD

mkriii

09-12-2008, 10:22 PM

I guess okay. How are you is the question? Better yet, who are you?

BentMonk

09-12-2008, 10:52 PM

mkriii - I just read the entire thread that you linked. It was very similar to this thread only smaller. There were even folks over there that thought you were clueless and needed to move on from the apparent SD trauma you endured when you were thirteen. As I've said, I don't care if SD's history is true or not. It's none of my business (or anyone's for that matter) why the The' brothers had a falling out. That's family business that should be left to family. I wasn't around for the infamous Four Seasons vs. SD fight, so I could care less what supposedly did or did not happen. It's all hearsay to me, and not relevant to my training. I have never been charged any "hidden fees". I have never had to attend a seminar to advance in rank. I was not required to join the SDA. I have yet to see any of these alleged practices first hand at any of the SD schools I have visited. As I said, until I do I will treat all such claims as BS.

Here's how it is where I train.

At my SD school we spar with medium to heavy body contact, none to light head contact. You can spar harder than that if you want, but we encourage you to pad up before hand. :D We are NOT taught to stop two inches before our target. I believe that others who have said this was how things are taught are misinterpreting the "snap" principle that is taught when learning basic punching. SD does have a lot of forms, however at my school we do not simply move from form to form. Proper body mechanics, stances, and alignment are heavily emphasised. We are also shown various practical applications for the movements we learn, and we drill those applications on a fairly regular basis. These are the reasons why I train and will continue to train there. I am not some clueless noob that stumbled blindly into my MA training. My school provided all I asked for and more. The rest of this BS is just that...BS

Judge Pen

09-12-2008, 11:22 PM

Sorry bud, but still incorrect. I just had a fellow classmate test from 3rd to 4th, and none of the material he was required to learn was gained via a seminar. I am not sure where those two individual in posts 261 and 262 got their information, but since neither one of them is a high level black belt, they most likely don't know what they are talking about. Judge Pen can confirm this I am sure, as well as some others.

Confirmed. None of the material that I have tested for was required to be taught at a seminar. Heck, I was almost a 2nd black before I went to a seminar.

Some schools may offer seminars and festivals more often, but there are only 2 a year under my teachers. We, the rank and file, are encouraged to attend, but not required. I usually attend because its respectful to support your teacher and a good way to see people that I don't get to see very often.

shen ku

09-13-2008, 12:18 AM

i have also never had to get anything for rank at a seminar?

shen ku

09-13-2008, 12:19 AM

i do know that some of the seminar forms may be used later on for rank at some spot, but by that time they have been shown out widely in regular class settings?

Baqualin

09-13-2008, 01:42 AM

i do know that some of the seminar forms may be used later on for rank at some spot, but by that time they have been shown out widely in regular class settings?

Most correct response so far.
BQ

Baqualin

09-13-2008, 01:42 AM

i have also never had to get anything for rank at a seminar?

Correct.
BQ

Baqualin

09-13-2008, 01:52 AM

Baqualin

09-13-2008, 02:02 AM

Seminar forms have been added to upper level rank advancement, after the fact...if you didn't attend the seminar...it will be taught in your regular class at no extra charge....by the time you need it.....years later.....example, I need Pakua spear for my next internal test....took the seminar years ago before it was required....I just wanted to learn the form and have a fun day with GM Sin & all the other SD friends.....now I need it and Pakua spear has been taught in regular class ......no extra charge....I know, I helped teach it.
BQ

kwaichang

09-13-2008, 02:29 AM

The lethality of a technique is in the way it is trained I have trained in many styles and with many instructors and at this time SD is the most lehal because when I train i train to kill haha just a pun KC

bodhi warrior

09-13-2008, 05:14 AM

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

shen ku

09-13-2008, 07:38 AM

master reid is a very nice man (from what time i was around him) he seems to study his art very well, and his skills are another story , just from my limited time i was around him, but most of all, very kind person and real

Leto

09-13-2008, 05:36 PM

Depending on what you call a "seminar", the CSC organization in the west does have testing requirements that are taught in the form of seminars or special classes, which are taught once or twice a year on a Sunday. Other extra cost classes will last for an entire month, with four sessions that take place before regular Saturday classes each week. These are mainly the forms for advanced black belts, and are always needed for advancement. These extra classes used to be 40-60 dollars depending on how long they lasted, though the price may have gone up now that the basic prices for all classes have gone up pretty much universally. If you've seen a particular class once, it's half price any other time you go to it.
Brown Belt is the first time this happens, and again for all the black belt levels. I chin ching and san he chin are taught together as a special class twice a year, so you need to take that one before your first brown belt test. 37(64) Yang taichi is taught in this way, once or twice a year. Almost everything required to grade from second black and up is taught in the form of special classes that cost extra on top of normal class fees, including all the hsing i material, all but one of the jian forms, all the hua to's qi gong, the hua fist forms, the drunken forms, etc.

This is where that "rumor" must have come from, because it's true. The masters and some teachers might waive fees for students who are having a hard time, and assistant instuctors who can "work it off". But officially, it costs extra to get the advanced material.

weakstudent

09-13-2008, 06:55 PM

can someone give me the history of shaolin-Do

shen ku

09-13-2008, 07:41 PM

yes i did know that SCS ran things that way but in truth (or what ever you wish to call it) SCS and SD are different organizations???????? in alot of ways, that they run things, not say that is good or bad just different,,,

SDJerry

09-13-2008, 08:51 PM

can someone give me the history of shaolin-Do

Judging by your profile, apparently you're not a very good investigator either if you've made it this far and are still asking :D I kid I kid Just read through this thread and it'll tell ya pretty much everything

BentMonk

09-14-2008, 03:17 AM

brucereiter

09-14-2008, 05:23 AM

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

master reid has taught me a great deal about internal martial arts and has been very inspiring to me in my training.

he is a very skilled martial artist and will share his knowledge with anyone who takes the time to ask questions and work.

if any of you are ever in atlanta i would stop by and say hello to him.

Skummer

09-14-2008, 06:23 AM

Anyone know anything about Master Reid? After watching that video, seems like he'd be a stuff sun of a gun to handle.

Greetings,

I trained with Master Reid for 8 years. Though I'm no advocate of the Shaolin-do/tao system these days, Reid is very good at what he does, is **** strong, and is a professional athlete. He was a member of the Atlanta Falcons for several years.

He also happens to be a good guy. We held the first ever Atlanta Bullshido throwdown at his school at which one fellow got his head pushed through a wall. Mr. Reid didn't complain or even make us pay for it! :)

brucereiter

09-14-2008, 06:54 AM

Leto

09-14-2008, 08:11 AM

Leto - I agree with shen ku. Other than GM Sin and similar material SCS and SD have nothing in common. I feel fortunate that things aren't ran the way you described at my SD school. If they were I would not train there. Do you know if new students are told up front that there are extra fees for advancement material? I find this whole practice to be very shady, and that's putting it mildly. I'm honestly surprised anyone is willing to train with them under such conditions.

Well I agree, it's shady. But they get away with it, I think, because their prices were significantly lower than most other martial arts schools (I don't know what the fees are like now). If you paid for a year in advance, and you went to all the extra classes and seminars that were offered, the overall cost would still be less than some schools' basic membership. I mean, there are places that charge $100 a month for classes, CSC was nowhere near that, even with the seminars added in.
I don't like the format of the seminar for teaching material you're expected to know and test over. How clear an understanding can you really have, by spending one day a year practicing a form? Yes, you can practice and ask questions on your own afterwards. But there's so much other material to work on during class, it comes down to the same old issue: too much material to cover in too little time. And next month there's another seminar form to learn and add into your practice rotation...it would have been nice if they just slowed down. Of course, in the beginning I loved getting so much material and was ready to absorb everything they could throw at me (and I spent 12-20 hours a week in classes).

kwaichang

09-14-2008, 07:13 PM

From a business stand point it is quite smart as far as ethical well I dont think so KC

bodhi warrior

09-15-2008, 01:46 AM

I always like hearing stories about the old timers like eric smith and bill leonard and bob green. I noticed Master Green specializes in monkey, but we only have a maybe 4 monkey forms, 2 of which were just recently taught. My question is, does anyone know what forms he knows and what his monkey training consists of?

kwaichang

09-15-2008, 02:43 AM

The Monkey Forms we know are taught may not be all that were taught to some KC

mkriii

09-15-2008, 05:25 PM

mkriii

09-15-2008, 05:26 PM

How did the tournament go on Saturday?

Lamassu

09-15-2008, 05:37 PM

How did the tournament go on Saturday?

Didn't you go?

mkriii

09-15-2008, 06:06 PM

No. I was going to go but the only reason was to meet Baqua and he was not going to be there so I decided not to. Was a fun time?

Baqualin

09-15-2008, 07:57 PM

Then why pay the money to learn something that is going to be taught in class? Waste of hard earned money in my oppinion.

The answer was in the post.......PLEASE learn to read....most of the seminar material you will not see for years, it's upper level only....some will never get that high and they might want to learn the form just like you want to learn Tai Chi:D
BQ

mkriii

09-15-2008, 09:41 PM

The answer was in the post.......PLEASE learn to read....most of the seminar material you will not see for years, it's upper level only....some will never get that high and they might want to learn the form just like you want to learn Tai Chi:D
BQ

Yes I saw that the answer was in your post, I can read. It was more of a rhetorical question than anything. Kinda expensive for someone who isn't a life member just to learn a form for fun when its going to be taught in class.

Me wanting to learn tai chi is a little different......if John Dufresne were still here in Lexington (and not in China) he would teach it (tai chi) to me either for free or for a very small price. I guess you could say I was a life member. :D But because he is not here anymore I can't learn from him except for when he comes back to visit with us students and ex-wife & kids (maybe 2 times a year). All learning from Dufresne right now is more philosophical talk and talk about fight scenerios right now via the internet and e-mail. :(

mkriii

09-15-2008, 09:45 PM

All learning from Dufresne right now is more philosophical talk and talk about fight scenerios right now via the internet and e-mail. :(

When I say training from Dufresne right now is talk about fight scenerios I mean like I will ask questions of what should be done in this situation or what technique would be best in that situation etc...

Golden Tiger

09-16-2008, 03:02 AM

No. I was going to go but the only reason was to meet Baqua and he was not going to be there so I decided not to. Was a fun time?

Well, its this weekend so you can still make it. Come on over, you can meet me!

shen ku

09-16-2008, 05:20 AM

I would like to meet you golden tiger? and i do mean that in a friendly non-combat kind of way,,,,,

Golden Tiger

09-16-2008, 05:25 AM

I would like to meet you golden tiger? and i do mean that in a friendly non-combat kind of way,,,,,

But of course! Stop by and say hello. I will be the one in the black uniform....;)

shen ku

09-16-2008, 06:23 AM

:rolleyes: with how many strips??and is your belt solid?

irontiger1981

09-16-2008, 06:37 AM

mr shen ku, dude that book is the **** i was just looking at it a few minutes ago (:DTHE ART OF SHEN KU)

shen ku

09-16-2008, 02:05 PM

ok so someone knows where i got my name from, it is a crazy book

BentMonk

09-16-2008, 08:04 PM

I will be in Lexington this weekend. If you haven't met me, and would like to give me sh!t in person, I'm not hard to spot. Walk on up and say hello.

shen ku

09-17-2008, 02:29 PM

bentmonk, i think we have meet but not sure you would remember me, kettlebell class with master dave, just once

BentMonk

09-17-2008, 04:29 PM

bentmonk, i think we have meet but not sure you would remember me, kettlebell class with master dave, just once

I remember. Are you still working with KBs? You should go to Master Dave's site and check out the video from the Atlanta Certification he and I attended. The cert is from Steve Cotter's International Kettlebell and Fitness Federation. It was an incredible weekend and I learned a lot!

shen ku

09-18-2008, 07:38 AM

still working some with kbs but kind of on a little different focus at the current time. but it all seems to hurt (in a good way)

BentMonk

09-18-2008, 06:18 PM

still working some with kbs but kind of on a little different focus at the current time. but it all seems to hurt (in a good way)

That's one of my favorite things about KBs. You can use them in many different ways to achieve different goals. I always have an assortment of minor aches and creaks when I train as well. :D I've increased the amount of my stretching, joint mobility, and Qi Gong exercises. This has helped reduce my creakiness quite a bit. Keep moving. If we stop we might not be able to get started again. Besides, pain is weakness leaving the body right? :D

shen ku

09-19-2008, 05:36 AM

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,

brucereiter

09-19-2008, 06:31 AM

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,

my condolences go out to your family

shen ku

09-19-2008, 04:17 PM

Thank you so much

BentMonk

09-19-2008, 06:48 PM

Shen Ku - Good thoughts and prayers to you and yours sir.

bodhi warrior

09-20-2008, 12:16 AM

Found this yesterday. Don't know where their from, but let me say this represents about 90% of the pakua i've seen in SD. Which is unfortunate. I have seen some people who actually do pakua very well but they are few and far between.

bodhi warrior

09-20-2008, 12:16 AM

sorry, forgot the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EmBzdiyxw

kwaichang

09-20-2008, 03:05 AM

THey are from Texas Austin SD Dont let the light hearted demo fool you That is not quite the way it is done their either KC

brucereiter

09-20-2008, 05:58 AM

THey are from Texas Austin SD Dont let the light hearted demo fool you That is not quite the way it is done their either KC

how is it done then? this looks like a lot of what i have seen for shaolin do all over the country.

Golden Tiger

09-20-2008, 02:01 PM

how is it done then? this looks like a lot of what i have seen for shaolin do all over the country.

Posture wise, it was like evereyone else that does it. But I have to agree with KC on this one, it was demo-ized. First, while I am a huge YES fan, the tempo of Roundabout was a little to fast and that seemed to cause the guys to speed through the postures and truncate them. The stances were not done correctly, the hand movements were way too fast and "pulled" and the speed was too fast. M. Joe's Snake and Sword were both good but again, a bit on the fast side. Starship Trooper might have been a better choice for the music ;).

All that said, I have done demo's with music before and when I went back and watched them, I thought the same thing. You are out there, the music is blaring and viola, you speed through the form.

Judge Pen

09-21-2008, 02:42 PM

The speed of the form and the height of each step is one of the things that seems to vary the most from school to school from my observations. I have to agree with bodhi warrior, although a lot of SD students pick up some Pa Kua, very few do it well. I don't think most students really put the time and thought into training it the way it should be trained. Unfortunately, for most, it seems to be a "get through" form. To do it well, you need to consistently train it. I thought this demo was a nice cross-section of SD Pa Kua, form the average to the pretty darn good.

And, for the record, I don't hold myself out as an example of good SD pa Kua. I'm probably in the middle with most everyone else. If I'm being critical, then I'm focusing that criticism on myself as well.

shen ku

09-21-2008, 03:34 PM

i do know of at least on master that works alot on pakua, but i have never seen him perform it (for the public) but he puts in alot of extra time and study on it, but alot of us in SD are trying to get some of everything we have and fale to get ALL of anything we have. Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????

Old Noob

09-22-2008, 06:24 PM

Wasn't it this weekend? I was in Nashville and thought about making the drive up to Lexington but my son wasn't up to it.

tattooedmonk

09-22-2008, 07:17 PM

than i must have alot of weakness:D,

well i won't be at anything this weekend, i just had a death in the family so all you SD guys enjoy everything for me ,Our thoughts and prayers are with you , brother.

tattooedmonk

09-22-2008, 07:23 PM

sorry, forgot the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5EmBzdiyxw All the moves are there . I think they were just rushed. Many of them were stiff, choppy and lacked the fluid movements normally associated with Ba Gua Zhang. I would like to hear what Bagualin has to say about this demo

tattooedmonk

09-22-2008, 07:24 PM

Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????
Bingo!! Nail on the head!:eek::)

tattooedmonk

09-22-2008, 07:27 PM

iron_leg_dave

09-22-2008, 07:29 PM

All the moves are there . I think they were just rushed. Many of them were stiff, choppy and lacked the fluid movements normally associated with Ba Gua Zhang. I would like to hear what Bagualin has to say about this demo

I still think it's a joke, there is no way that there are that many people in one place, who are actually literally mentally retarded, and trying to do kung fu.

Is kung fu in the special olympics now?

They had to have been mocking kung fu intentionally.

bodhi warrior

09-22-2008, 10:58 PM

Wasn't it this weekend? I was in Nashville and thought about making the drive up to Lexington but my son wasn't up to it.

I went. And all in all it seemed like a good gathering. Good crowd, and good participation. There were a few standouts. First was Master Ben Collins doing skewer the sun sword, very nicely done. Second was a couple of guys doing Hua fist, looked good and very exhausting. Third was this harmon guy doing what looked like a drunken immortal form. Man, that dude is freaking awesome. He really stole the show. Very acrobatic and long form done a hardwood floor. Very impressive.

Old Noob

09-22-2008, 11:00 PM

I went. And all in all it seemed like a good gathering. Good crowd, and good participation. There were a few standouts. First was Master Ben Collins doing skewer the sun sword, very nicely done. Second was a couple of guys doing Hua fist, looked good and very exhausting. Third was this harmon guy doing what looked like a drunken immortal form. Man, that dude is freaking awesome. He really stole the show. Very acrobatic and long form done a hardwood floor. Very impressive.

I think he's been on some of the videos that have been posted on this thread. He's a monster from the look of him. I would have like to have been there. Next time perhaps...

shen ku

09-22-2008, 11:59 PM

BODHI WARRIOR? might you be someone i know? it says you have trained on and off for 20 years , might that be 23and a half years? just wondering , it something in the way you phrase your statements

bodhi warrior

09-23-2008, 12:48 AM

Maybe. Pm me who you think I am and I'll tell you if your right.

shen ku

09-23-2008, 02:37 AM

sorry looked at some of your post and your not who i thought but always good to see someone with alot of time in SD on here

Judge Pen

09-23-2008, 01:01 PM

BentMonk

09-23-2008, 04:52 PM

I still think it's a joke, there is no way that there are that many people in one place, who are actually literally mentally retarded, and trying to do kung fu.

Is kung fu in the special olympics now?

They had to have been mocking kung fu intentionally.

This post is tacky and without class. It is in no way a constructive criticism. In an effort to demonstrate to you what constructive criticism is, I offer the following. The form in the video was not a good representation of BaGua. The stepping was too fast and shallow, and the practitioner appeared to have no idea what he was doing with his hands other than going through the motions of the form he was taught. Demo or not, if you're going to get up in front of people and or post your self on the web, you should at least make a genuine attempt to do the form as correctly as possible. All the video shows is that the practitioner lacked any depth of understanding in regards to BaGua. Unfortunately this happens a lot in SD because people focus on the movements just long enough to learn the basic movements, and then they're ready to move on to the next form. This creates a very superficial understanding of what they're doing. This superficial understanding is obvious when they perform the material, and made worse when these people teach others. This is IMO one of the main reasons SD has a poor rep. There are too many people out there with a limited understanding of what they're doing who think they are qualified to teach someone else. I've said it before, this practice breeds mediocrity. All of my forms have been modified to accommodate my disability. However, I still strive to perform them with as much of the originals intent and function as possible. I still try to use solid body mechanics and proper power generation. I may not be able to kick, but I do know how to punch and move correctly. I will be posting some video of myself very soon. Laugh if you will, but I hope to put my money where my mouth is. If you were at the evening demos this past Saturday, you saw me do my version of a 7 star mantis form. Please feel free to post any comments you may have, positive or negative.

shen ku

09-24-2008, 05:29 AM

BentMonk

09-24-2008, 03:15 PM

bentmonk, i was not there but i have seen you perform,, and i have seen you fight and i would say to anyone you are solid in your skill and heart for what you do,,,,,,,and i have also judged you before:) oh to pass judgement on others:D

Thank you for the kind words. I consider any time I make it through a form without falling a good run. :D I'm not designed for point sparring. I'm more of a take one and give ten kind of guy. lol You weren't passing judgement. You were simply giving your requested opinion. ;)

shen ku

09-25-2008, 04:09 AM

no i was not talking about passing judgement on you,,,,,,,,,i was just enjoying being a wise a$$ about judging at events like that,,,,,,,trust me i am no one to be judging anyone

bodhi warrior

09-25-2008, 04:36 AM

If you were at the evening demos this past Saturday, you saw me do my version of a 7 star mantis form. Please feel free to post any comments you may have, positive or negative.

I thought your 7 star form looked good. very crisp. As for the point sparring I wouldn't worry about that. Most of the techniques that were landed on you wouldn't hurt a fly, but they still count as points, go figure. It looked to me like you were trying to utilize some grappling when you took people down. Is that something you been working on?

BentMonk

09-25-2008, 05:43 PM

no i was not talking about passing judgement on you,,,,,,,,,i was just enjoying being a wise a$$ about judging at events like that,,,,,,,trust me i am no one to be judging anyone

I knew you were joking. I feel the same way about myself when I'm on the judging end. :D

BentMonk

09-25-2008, 06:08 PM

I thought your 7 star form looked good. very crisp. As for the point sparring I wouldn't worry about that. Most of the techniques that were landed on you wouldn't hurt a fly, but they still count as points, go figure. It looked to me like you were trying to utilize some grappling when you took people down. Is that something you been working on?

Thank you. I do the point sparring just for the fun of it. Both of my opponents said they did not think they would have had the advantage if we were sparring non-stop. I was bummed that there wasn't a non-stop division this year. That's the format I had been training for. Master Price and Master Randolph have encouraged me to take my opponents to the ground as quickly, and as often as possible. This is an effort to compensate for my lack of balance. I began training long before the BJJ craze. Rather than have me going for arm bars and other submissions, I was taught to take my opponent down and incapacitate them as quickly as possible. Throat, groin, knees, any area that was vulnerable as I went to the ground. Although, maneuvering to my opponent's back and taking them down via the rear naked choke is something I've been drilling since white belt. We just called it the sleeper hold instead. I have friends that are BJJ and MMA players. They are helping me learn to land in side control when I take my opponent to the ground, and working fast submissions from that position. I get a chance to throw on the gloves and spar with some solid contact as well. :D Everyone who trains in a fighting art has experience that can help someone else. I keep an open mind and collect as much knowledge as I can. SD has many effective techniques and many skilled teachers, but just because I live in a library doesn't mean I can't borrow a good book from a friend. ;)

sammich

10-01-2008, 12:05 AM

peace&love

10-01-2008, 12:21 AM

So I am new, but there is a lot of thread posts here to read, and wondered if there was an agreement is shaolin do real, or r you guys just discussing shaolin do now, I don't know about the wolf man guy.

This thread has been going on for a number of years. I believe we all agree that Shaolin Do is real. It exists. It is a martial arts system/style that is very effective and successful overall. With that in mind it has strengths and weakness as far as curriculum goes, but every organization/style/system does. Those of us who practice Shaolin Do enjoy and find it fulfilling in regards to martial art training. Shaolin Do works on developing one's internal and external skills unlike many other systems which concentrate on just the external. You will hear a lot of positive and negative things about Shaolin Do. I take it with a grain of salt. The "wolf man guy" was a Grandmaster of Shaolin long ago. Not much is truly known about him and much of what we know is legend. This is the same situation with others in lineages. Wong Fei Hung is very well know in relation to Hung Gar, but we truly know very little about him from a historical point of view. It is just the way it is in Chinese Martial Arts. To answer your question, I guess we do a bit of both.

shen ku

10-01-2008, 05:49 AM

very well put, peace&love,,, what state do you train in? myself i am in kentucky. have been training just over 23 years and am a 3rd black, and have been teaching for 15 years

Toby

10-01-2008, 07:51 AM

Shaolin Do works on developing one's internal and external skills unlike many other systems which concentrate on just the external.I haven't seen any "internal" skills in any SD videos yet. E.g. the bagua recently posted. OTOH it's rare to see many "internal" skills in any online videos. For an example of some stuff that I like that touches on "internal" mechanics, look at the "Waist vs hip, internal discipline" thread on emptyflower. Going through the motions of a form isn't what I'd classify as internal no matter what the origins of the form are, especially when it's obvious the mechanics are wrong.

* Disclaimer - I'm a low-level beginner at "internal" stuff, knowing just enough to know I know nothing.

Baqualin

10-01-2008, 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=Toby;885279]I haven't seen any "internal" skills in any SD videos yet. E.g. the bagua recently posted. OTOH it's rare to see many "internal" skills in any online videos. For an example of some stuff that I like that touches on "internal" mechanics, look at the "Waist vs hip, internal discipline" thread on emptyflower. Going through the motions of a form isn't what I'd classify as internal no matter what the origins of the form are, especially when it's obvious the mechanics are wrong.

* Disclaimer - I'm a low-level beginner at "internal" stuff, knowing just enough to know I know nothing.[/QUOT

Constructive post.....you won't see many as you stated......have you seen Bruce Reiter's video post....he specialized in SD internal....all though he has recently moved on to another style of Baqua his foundations are in years of SD.....he's still part of our family.
BQ

Toby

10-02-2008, 07:53 AM

Judge Pen

10-02-2008, 12:20 PM

I was critical because most students do not take the time to really work on internal, but I think the depth of the material is there to the motivated. Most students like the testing and the variety of material (which is there choice). Some students want to focus their training (like bruce and like BQ). I think that the way our system is set up as a curriculim, you can learn a variety of material until you find something that fits you, then you can focus on that with more depth.

It so happens that many people in our system don't chose Pa Kua to focus on.

Forgive the typos or misspellings; the coffee's still brewing. :o

shen ku

10-02-2008, 01:36 PM

Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????[/QUOTE]

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,

sean_stonehart

10-02-2008, 05:00 PM

Our strength, is our depth of material. Our weekness, is our depth of material,????????

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,[/QUOTE]

Shen... have you ever developed a taste of Chinese food yet?? :D Just curious...

But to pick on a point ... how can somebody pick something & polish it if there's no basics for "that" except for just SD? For instance... Tiger Crane. It's from Hung Ga... how many people stop everything else, spend the next year or more picking their teacher's brain on Hung Ga basics for conditioning, bridging, striking, horses, energies, etc... ? They can't really. It was just brought in & made SD. Fine well & good, but how can it ever be polished when the base is missing?

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed to.

mkriii

10-02-2008, 05:09 PM

Sean, thats a very good post. I agree with you 100%. If you don't have the basics then how can you polish your skills? You can't. Basically it's a hodge podge of this and that.:)

Baqualin

10-02-2008, 05:44 PM

Yeah, I've seen Bruce's stuff and communicated with him. We were going to meet one time when he was in my neighbourhood to exchange ideas but he didn't have the time on the day.

I was responding to peace&love's comment that had a veiled implication of SD's superiority due to it teaching internal skills that other systems don't. If you go back over the last couple of pages in this thread you'll see bodhi warrior, bruce, Golden Tiger, Judge Pen, shen ku, tattooedmonk and BentMonk criticising SD's bagua (particularly in the context of that recent video), so I'm not the only one.

They didn't criticise SD's Baqua (not really SD's Baqua but a common form) only that person's ability.....we're given the tools....he hasn't used them.

I've seen a few other videos that show practitioners (some high-ranking ones) of similar quality. Now I'm no bagua student but in relation to my practice there's no structure or mechanics that I'd call internal in anything I've seen there.

I agree

There may well be a way to learn internal skills in the SD system, but you'd have to be looking for that and actively seek it out if I'm not mistaken.

Isn't that what we all do? Your into the internal....didn't you seek that out? The advantage of SD is not superiority, but the opportunity to see various systems and decide which you would like to pursue

The average student will learn effectively nothing, some emulated forms, no mechanics, nothing.

I'm an Internal Instructor for SD...that's all I teach and all I study....the students are constantly drilled on structure and biomechanics (your knees will suffer without this).
I could go on and on about our Internal program, but you probally get my point as I also get yours.....there's more to SD than meets the eye

I'm aware some high-level people specialise in various aspects of SD, so a prospective student might find what they're looking for through them but doing one system that encompasses 100 systems you're not going to get good at any of them.

No one would disagree with this....once again it's the opportunity to read a menu and order what you like.

You seemed to have a dedication to the internal.....great me too!!! most students of any martial art could give a sh!t...it's only the exercise & stress relief that they care about....the 100 systems keeps them from being bored

Not superiority...opportunity
BQ

Quoting again:
kjf;lgjdfkl;agadklg

brucereiter

10-02-2008, 06:07 PM

[QUOTE=Toby;885279.he's still part of our family.
BQ

:-)

Judge Pen

10-02-2008, 06:12 PM

if your teacher hasn't taken the time to pick up the depth of training in part of SD's curriculim, but you want to focus on that material, then you find another teacher. In or outside the system. If you're happy with what your teacher can show you, then you stay.

MasterKiller

10-02-2008, 06:17 PM

Sean, thats a very good post. I agree with you 100%. If you don't have the basics then how can you polish your skills? You can't. Basically it's a hodge podge of this and that.:) Isn't your system also a hodgepodge of this and that?
A little Five Animal, a little Tai Chi, a little Bagua...?

Baqualin

10-02-2008, 06:21 PM

Why does no one on here ever use all of a quote, as i think most know, or depth of material gives us so much to push for, to pick from, and to work at polishing,,,,,,,,our weekness, is out depth of material,,,,,to many of us just push for more, never pick any thing, and forget to polish,,,,,,,,,

Shen... have you ever developed a taste of Chinese food yet?? :D Just curious...

But to pick on a point ... how can somebody pick something & polish it if there's no basics for "that" except for just SD? For instance... Tiger Crane. It's from Hung Ga... how many people stop everything else, spend the next year or more picking their teacher's brain on Hung Ga basics for conditioning, bridging, striking, horses, energies, etc... ? They can't really. It was just brought in & made SD. Fine well & good, but how can it ever be polished when the base is missing?

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

Everyone in my classes....BQ

It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed to.[/QUOTE]

Your speaking in generalities from the one school you had experience with.

sean_stonehart

10-02-2008, 06:48 PM

Or internal for just Chen taiji... how many people work on rooting, silk reeling, basic postures and conditioning before the set is ever learned? Same there... it's not polishable IMO since the basics were skipped for the set & then you move on.

Everyone in my classes....BQ

Ok maybe so... but just asking... how long did you sit & do just basics for Chen that are specific for Chen only?

It'd be one thing if SD had all the basic training & each person learned starting with the basics for that "X" and continued on that "X" the way "X" is done by the rest of the world that practices "X" the same way. Sd doesn't, so the polish won't ever be there since the foundation of "X" isn't necessarily the foundation SD uses. It'll always be SD's take on "X" & will always look that way. It doesn't mean it can't be made to work, but it may not be working the way "X" is supposed

Your speaking in generalities from the one school you had experience with.

Well yes & no. I'm speaking from the one school I had experience with & from what I've seen from students from other schools including out west & Ky as well.

I'm just commenting about the polish (look, feel, execution, etc...) of techniques for forms that SD has in the curriculum. If I were to try to do a 7* mantis form, it'd look like somebody doing a 7* Mantis form with no grounding in 7* mantis, but something else instead. But it doesn't take away the fact I could hit hard with it, but I wouldn't be using Mantis basics to do it, I'd be using CLF. I'd miss the little things that make it Mantis.

Same thing with SD & the forms it's incorporated at least on the external side of the fence. I can talk with a little more certainty there. Many many many things are missed in the incorporated forms because either the basics weren't learned or weren't taught because they didn't run parallel to the basics taught for SD as a whole and would cause a disconnect in the techniques.

sean_stonehart

10-02-2008, 06:49 PM

Baqualin

10-02-2008, 08:38 PM

Ok maybe so... but just asking... how long did you sit & do just basics for Chen that are specific for Chen only?

I usually do about 15 to 20 min. of chen specific exercises before we start working on the form (small sections) then as we go through the section I will point out where the silk reeling, compressing, coiling, fai jing they learned from the exercises are in the form, where it's coming from..and the intent...also just standing to acheive proper posture and to feel their weight distribution and foot contact to the ground.....with Baqua alot of just stepping and palm changes....it will take me a year + to teach the chen form properly...then it's up to them where they take it BQ

Well yes & no. I'm speaking from the one school I had experience with & from what I've seen from students from other schools including out west & Ky as well.

Your generally correct with your observations......most students don't follow the program and don't care

I'm just commenting about the polish (look, feel, execution, etc...) of techniques for forms that SD has in the curriculum. If I were to try to do a 7* mantis form, it'd look like somebody doing a 7* Mantis form with no grounding in 7* mantis, but something else instead. But it doesn't take away the fact I could hit hard with it, but I wouldn't be using Mantis basics to do it, I'd be using CLF. I'd miss the little things that make it Mantis.

good point

Same thing with SD & the forms it's incorporated at least on the external side of the fence. I can talk with a little more certainty there. Many many many things are missed in the incorporated forms because either the basics weren't learned or weren't taught because they didn't run parallel to the basics taught for SD as a whole and would cause a disconnect in the techniques.

Very true

A lot of the basics for external are common to each system (somewhat in the internal also....rooting is rooting)......good topic for discussion eh:)

bodhi warrior

10-02-2008, 10:50 PM

bodhi warrior

10-02-2008, 10:59 PM

I also received a very extensive breathing meditation class from GM sin. It included standing, sitted, and lying meditation. As anyone knows meditation is a cornerstone of internal training, standing especially.

Toby

10-03-2008, 12:53 AM

One thing SD obviously doesn't teach is quote-fu. Holy shit guys, some of the posts on the last page are painful :D .

BQ, the problem is that a prospective student to SD won't know in advance which teachers are like you, Bruce, etc and have concentrated on a particular aspect. So he/she might sign up at a school where they think they're going to learn something, but end up with a teacher like the ones on the videos. IMHO you're not going to learn much if your teacher never learned it. So it becomes a matter of choosing between particular teachers/schools of SD if you want to learn a specific thing in the same way that we all have to choose between particular teachers/schools. If the teacher at a branch doesn't have a skill then that whole branch will lose it in subsequent generations.

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

peace&love

10-03-2008, 02:18 AM

Yeah, I've seen Bruce's stuff and communicated with him. We were going to meet one time when he was in my neighbourhood to exchange ideas but he didn't have the time on the day.

I was responding to peace&love's comment that had a veiled implication of SD's superiority due to it teaching internal skills that other systems don't. If you go back over the last couple of pages in this thread you'll see bodhi warrior, bruce, Golden Tiger, Judge Pen, shen ku, tattooedmonk and BentMonk criticising SD's bagua (particularly in the context of that recent video), so I'm not the only one. I've seen a few other videos that show practitioners (some high-ranking ones) of similar quality. Now I'm no bagua student but in relation to my practice there's no structure or mechanics that I'd call internal in anything I've seen there.

There may well be a way to learn internal skills in the SD system, but you'd have to be looking for that and actively seek it out if I'm not mistaken. The average student will learn effectively nothing, some emulated forms, no mechanics, nothing. I'm aware some high-level people specialise in various aspects of SD, so a prospective student might find what they're looking for through them but doing one system that encompasses 100 systems you're not going to get good at any of them. Quoting again:

It was not my intention to imply that SD was superior in any way to other systems or styles. I believe true kung fu training should include the internal arts. SD provides that training and I believe that is great. Many kung fu schools have gotten away from the internal arts and I believe that's a shame and unfortunate. Fortunately, there are other schools who do teach the internal arts, but not as many as there use to be. Perhaps it is simply supply and demand. I think it is great that any school continues internal arts training whether they are SD or not. I trained for years in Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut and we also spent time working on Chi Kung training. A lot of schools simply do not do that and I believe they are missing out. Simply, to each their own.

peace&love

10-03-2008, 02:21 AM

very well put, peace&love,,, what state do you train in? myself i am in kentucky. have been training just over 23 years and am a 3rd black, and have been teaching for 15 years

I train in Tennessee. I have also trained in KY primarily through seminars with Master Seng Au from Hawaii.

Baqualin

10-03-2008, 03:07 AM

One thing SD obviously doesn't teach is quote-fu. Holy **** guys, some of the posts on the last page are painful :D .

BQ, the problem is that a prospective student to SD won't know in advance which teachers are like you, Bruce, etc and have concentrated on a particular aspect. So he/she might sign up at a school where they think they're going to learn something, but end up with a teacher like the ones on the videos. IMHO you're not going to learn much if your teacher never learned it. So it becomes a matter of choosing between particular teachers/schools of SD if you want to learn a specific thing in the same way that we all have to choose between particular teachers/schools. If the teacher at a branch doesn't have a skill then that whole branch will lose it in subsequent generations.

I can't argue with that....it will always be a problem when there's 100's of schools spread out all over the country...no matter the style.....plus most students really don't care....their not like you or me

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

I hear you but, don't take things so personal.......the internal will teach you this;)
BQ

sdkcjwergnerj

Baqualin

10-03-2008, 03:22 AM

I think that the beginning material up through brown belt offer a very good foundation for the brown belt material and some of the black belt material (hua fist, black tiger). When GM sin started teaching the eight drunken immortals there were alot of strength training, post training to go with learning the forms.

BQ, you say you teach silkreeling, etc. Did you get these outside of SD or were they taught be sin the'? Because when I learned yang taichi and pakua from him these types of training methods were not taught. Just curious.

From discussions & working with GMS and other upper level masters in the systems that love the internal (GMS, EML, EMM, EMS, MR, & MBC)....GMS doesn't call it by the common names he just explains the mechanics....the actual exercises I brought in for Chen....via GMS encouraging research.......he gives us all the tools...it's up to us to learn how to use them

Judge Pen

10-03-2008, 01:19 PM

And of course it's mildly offensive to me that my whole system is treated as a stepping-stone in a belt/sash progression. That's kind of annoying. How can something that's so difficult for me concentrating solely on be learned by someone amongst other things in a < 1yr timespan and they then say "Oh yeah, I've learned x"? No, you haven't. It's more difficult than that. You've learned some vague movements, that's it. (generic "you")

You should be used to it. Internal arts, taiji, xing yi, and ba gua, are getting added on to many kung fu schools where there teacher (some very well respected teachers) don't really have a background in them, but they are catering to the market. More so in taiji, but the others are becoming more common as well.

But to address SD, if you are talking about the core teaching progression, the internal shouldn't be taught until they are an advanced student. I wasn't taught any tai chi until I was a first black (which took me 3 years). At that time, my teacher would refer to SD teachers that specilize in internal arts, such as Eric Smith, as a reference in SD. At that time, there was no other tai chi in my area. The internet wasn't a major factor. I couldn't look things up for myself very easily. Now things are different. I think students are much more savvy and that's good for SD. It forces teachers to improve their teaching and to train harder themselves because there are so many other options. Hopefully, many of the shortfall we discuss here will be corrected by the next generation of SD intructors It sounds as if they can follow BQ's example.

kwaichang

10-03-2008, 01:50 PM

Martial Art is a personal journey much of what is taught is never absorbed in the physical manifestation of the art studying. If the teacher gives all the answers then there is no self discovery , thus you are doing something instead of experiencing somthing. Basics are taught in SD They are not stressed as long as I feel they should be but what student of today will do stance training for 6 months or a year?? Also many that do work on the nuances of the Internal arts do not post. Likewise there is the X that you compare it to is also possibly not completely accurate as well. Remember if you are looking for a particular mechanical application of a technique , everyone will do it different and with different emphasis. Not to say the basics arent there, they are just at different levels for different people. Some are good kickers and some punchers. KC

Toby

10-03-2008, 02:40 PM

But to address SD, if you are talking about the core teaching progression, the internal shouldn't be taught until they are an advanced student.I just don't understand how a SD student can ever think they'll learn enough of one art with the amount of material in the whole system. E.g. components of my style are taught in the progression from "2nd degree black belt" to "3rd degree black belt". There are 16 "katas" that have to be completed to make that "belt progression". Along with that presumably a student would have to train all the stuff they've learned to get to "2nd degree black belt". I mean, it's just not possible to be even competent at any of the stuff you're supposed to know. Unless, you reach a level where you decide to concentrate on one aspect, like Bruce and maybe others (BQ?). But then IMHO you're not doing SD any more, because you're neglecting other aspects that don't interest you but which are still part of the system and that you should probably excel at in order to be a high-level SD practitioner. It's a bit hard for me to explain what I mean but you probably get the gist of it.

A parallel analogy - in my case I learned a style (WC) and spent a fair amount of time doing it but my skills are rusty at best and I wouldn't necessarily call myself a WC student any more although I still regularly practise it. 95% of my training time is spent on another style now though so it's not fair for me to be a WC student. Even e.g. my teacher is the keeper of a different style, but he rarely practises it so he is reluctant to call himself that any more.

Toby

10-03-2008, 02:56 PM

Basics are taught in SD They are not stressed as long as I feel they should be but what student of today will do stance training for 6 months or a year??Even our higher level WC students do "qigong" exercises every session in the warmup (or used to when I last attended group classes). I try to stand in san ti for 10min pretty much every day from when I first learned it. It's still changing constantly. I very much like it and IMHO it's very important. You can do other things too (i.e. not solely stance training for 6/12mths), but keeping up the stance training is good for the mind, body and soul IMHO. Even for much, much longer than 6/12mths.

Martial Art is a personal journey much of what is taught is never absorbed in the physical manifestation of the art studying. If the teacher gives all the answers then there is no self discovery , thus you are doing something instead of experiencing somthing.Yeah, but if the teacher doesn't have the answers in the first place (as I suspect many SD masters don't), then they won't be able to point the students in the right direction to discover the answers for themselves.

Likewise there is the X that you compare it to is also possibly not completely accurate as well. Remember if you are looking for a particular mechanical application of a technique , everyone will do it different and with different emphasis. Not to say the basics arent there, they are just at different levels for different people. Some are good kickers and some punchers.Yeah, I accept this. I have preconceived ideas, everyone does. OK, from my perspective when I see "internal" videos, I expect to see people move from their dan tien. I want to see body movement, I want to see coordination, I want to see strong structure. Some of those guys walking the circle a couple of pages back looked like they were going for a stroll in the park. That'd be OK if you walked in the park with "internal" structure but I didn't see that. Simple example (but my words will suck) - if you're just standing there and you lift one leg up do you just kind of lift it up using predominantly your quadricep? Or do you lift it up by (amongst other things) pulling it up through your dan tien (i.e. using your trunk/core that you've worked long and hard to develop via "internal" exercises to do most of the work, kinda like doing a standing crunch)? It might produce a similar effect (your leg is lifted), and if you are subtle about it a bystander might struggle to tell the difference, but with time it can create a massive difference in structure/power/body unity (IMHO).

Judge Pen

10-03-2008, 04:43 PM

I just don't understand how a SD student can ever think they'll learn enough of one art with the amount of material in the whole system. E.g. components of my style are taught in the progression from "2nd degree black belt" to "3rd degree black belt". There are 16 "katas" that have to be completed to make that "belt progression". Along with that presumably a student would have to train all the stuff they've learned to get to "2nd degree black belt". I mean, it's just not possible to be even competent at any of the stuff you're supposed to know. Unless, you reach a level where you decide to concentrate on one aspect, like Bruce and maybe others (BQ?). But then IMHO you're not doing SD any more, because you're neglecting other aspects that don't interest you but which are still part of the system and that you should probably excel at in order to be a high-level SD practitioner. It's a bit hard for me to explain what I mean but you probably get the gist of it.

A parallel analogy - in my case I learned a style (WC) and spent a fair amount of time doing it but my skills are rusty at best and I wouldn't necessarily call myself a WC student any more although I still regularly practise it. 95% of my training time is spent on another style now though so it's not fair for me to be a WC student. Even e.g. my teacher is the