Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Your "se meng t'ao lian" is very different. Much more so then your version of Fei Hu.

I understand what you're saying on GMS not correcting forms. You're CSC and they do some of their forms very differently then the "east coast." I know that my teachers in TN do some things in forms a little differently than TX and KY and ATL It appears that GMS affords the senior and elder masters quite a bit of leeway to teach forms based on their own flavor and interpretation. We can argue about why and if that's the way it should be for another 1000 pages, but that's just an observation based upon my 19 1/2 years of experience in this style and what I've seen with my own eyes.

[bodhi warrior]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.

[Judge Pen]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.
Your notes are exactly as I was first taught this form.

[kungfujunky]

hey man,

thanks for adding a clip of some of your practice. i cant really comment on the form since i don't know it but if you have any of the internal material on video i would like to see.

ok i will make one comment ... it is good for you to practice in your yard like that on uneven surface with things to trip over and twist your ankle on. in time this will make your stances and stepping very solid. keep that up.
if you do bagua yet do your circle walking practice on a uneven surface like you yard ...

i will be videoing pa kua soon. in the same yard lol

i just want it to be more fluid.

the bird form is exactly as i was taught it. it has excellent application for each move. id be curious to see the version you guys do.

it sounds like the differences in fe hu are so subtle that they could easily have just been misremembered from first learning the form.

[kungfujunky]

Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.


other than line 1 and line 3 they are almost the same. again such minor differences it could very well be my instructor who muffed it.

not sure. but very close none the less.

thx for the notes. im going to try that arm break there and see how that feels

[Old Noob]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.

Yep. This is exactly what I'm getting now. I edited the double front out of my last post. I mis-spoke. I was tought it just as it appears in the quotation. I don't think the differences are that subtle. Up until I saw the elbow/double backfist in the video, I thought I was watching a different tiger form. Maybe the west is changing things a bit. Not a criticism. Just an observation.

[Judge Pen]

i will be videoing pa kua soon. in the same yard lol

i just want it to be more fluid.

the bird form is exactly as i was taught it. it has excellent application for each move. id be curious to see the version you guys do.

it sounds like the differences in fe hu are so subtle that they could easily have just been misremembered from first learning the form.

At lease you didn't put a double-smash in "Se Meng" :D

[kungfujunky]

hahahaha

i wanted to though

:p

[naja]

i have added se meng t'ao lian


i have almost all of the forms recorded from white to 2nd black so i will be adding them intermittently as we go along

thx for the feedback

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9t0XDan0Ls

Wow, several noticeable differences than how EM Mullins teaches it. I don't think the differences are nessecarily a bad thing, just different.

I'm going to try and get a hold of a camera this week and upload my renditions...

[tattooedmonk]

I'm a yellow and have just had this form for about a month so I'm pretty close to it. We also do not do the hand movements prior to the horizontal rakes. After the rakes, we're in LBS. Then it's:

1. Grab with the forward (Left) hand
2. Step through with right leg and break with an underhand right
3. Using both hands pull as you trap with left leg
4. Right roundhouse kick
5. Transistion/block to cat stance (left foot forward)
6. jumping front kick

Without looking at my notes, that's how I remember it.

ONSo, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

[tattooedmonk]

Anyone want to share there application for the beginning of the form, just the first three moves after the bow???

[Judge Pen]

So, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

Yes. As you step backwards into Left BS with the Left hand extended in a tiger claw strike.

[tattooedmonk]

Yes. As you step backwards into Left BS with the Left hand extended in a tiger claw strike. So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

[kungfujunky]

hey ttm go ahead and post your thoughts here....im a big boy so no worries lol

i think i like the 2 blocks and then grab that i do as opposed to a step back with a claw strike....i like the aggressiveness of the grab and pull strike.

[Leto]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

[naja]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.

[BM2]

Hey KFJ, I applaud you having the guts to put yourself out there. With that being said, it's obvious that the CSC group is making some weird changes to their forms. Most obvious is the wavy hands in the tiger and the extra moves added to the tiger and seng mon ta lei.
Here's a written version of them both as I was taught:
Fefuchutung-
1. Step back with rt foot, left hand comes up, right hand makes a small counter clock wise circle back to right side.
2. three horizontal rakes.
3. step forward right foot, pull back left hand and arm break with the right.
4. pull with hands, and knee trap with left leg.
5. round house with right leg.
6. step into a cat with left foot forward, jump straight up and kick with left leg(no double kick).
7. step forward right bow, circle block with right hand, strike forward with right hand, stike back with left at same time.
8. double elbow up, double back fist
9. step up and then back with left foot to a right bow.
10. low back kick with left foot, step down, side kick with right.
11. without setting foot down turn, double front kick starting with right foot.
12. land in a left bow, three horizontal rakes.
13. step forward into right bow, chop to the neck with right hand.
14. rake up with right hand, then grab head and smash to the left knee.
15. step into a reverse bow, right hand blocks to the head, left hand strikes down.
16. shift weight to left bow, left hand blocks to the head, right hand punches down with a yell.
17. step up and bow.
Sorry dont have a vid. I am planning on putting some up. But I hope my written explanation is enough for now. This is how I learned it 20 years ago, and how I still do it to this day.


On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

[naja]

On #10, we didn't have a step down but jumped into the the side kick.

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

[tattooedmonk]

I learned it as a single action. Step back and set the claws, then go into the horizontal rips.I learned it as; Bow, block w/ the( L) hand tiger claw , (R) tiger claw comes underneath and grabs the wrist in a circular motion as the (R) leg steps back into (L) side forward BS as the (R) tiger claw pulls back and the L tiger claw strikes forward ..........

[kwaichang]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

[Leto]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

[kwaichang]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

[naja]

So, instead of a cross behind knee trap kick, side thrust kick, turn to the left, double front snap kick, you do two back kicks into two front snap kicks????

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

[Leto]

Come to Tennessee I will train you. You seem to be trying to generate Fa Jing but without the proper mechanics. I dont know how to say it. You are performing this loose trunk moves through out the form and the finish is a fist not open hand. KC

Thanks for the offer. I don't think I will be able to come to Tennessee anytime soon, though. internet talk will have to do for now. At CSC, they do fei hu with an open hand at the end, at least when I was taught. The elder masters make changes from time to time, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is now taught differently again. As the lower belt forms were getting changed all the time, I don't think it's a big deal to experiment with them by performing things differently. The weird trunk moving you're seeing might be my Okinawan karate coming through, "koshi" hip action generating whipping power. I exaggerate it sometimes. When I was taught, we were lacking any sort of detailed power generating method, so my karate training naturally took over to inform some of the kung fu forms. I still practice my Okinawan kata as well, and it bleeds together sometimes. Sometimes I bleed it together on purpose, to see what I get. It doesn't always work :)

[Shaolin Wookie]

also i went over my notes and this is exactly how i learned it from my instructor at the time....could be a new twist....but ive sat on panels and GMS has watched this rendition of the form and didnt say anything about it?

so maybe it is an accepted change?

OTD......I have never seen it any other way. Some people do the wavy motions (I consider them up blocks/chambering motions for the X-styled strike that follows in the back-step to a left bow stance. BTW....this is one of the forms, if I'm not mistaken, that CSC does differently than SD.

If there is a fault to be laid....LOL...it's with that "keep the vid vault sealed" ideology. I don't think any of us have ever seen a demo from a senior practitioner in the art......EVER. At least, not done at speed. And a form changes 50% when speed comes into the equation. Going from A to B is always easy. It's the "to" in between that changes the form.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Stop experimenting and go back to class. What is with all the loose trunk connection and stuff no where near the way I learned it. KC

Dude, it's comments like these that cause people to clam up when time comes to share vids. Let's not deteriorate into name-calling and insults.

Where's the brotherhood? You'd think you'd have learned kindness with your practice........

His form is exactly like it's done in CSC's in Atlanta. I perform mine a liittle differently (fei hu....and my se meng tao lian is performed way differently than both of theirs, but it's the same form). If it's not like yours, get over it. Maybe you could learn something. We can certainly learn something from you....so, even better yet, post something.:)

The reason we're posting vids is to communicate on a more real level where something could actually be learned. I know, for this thread, it's a real stretch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

explain "loose trunk connection." feet and upper body not coordinated? too much shoulder movement? That is one thing I see to criticize in these videos. that's part of the point of making them, to get a third person view of what I'm doing. I watch it, and then make adjustments. almost like having a mirror.
They apparently teach things much differently out west than they do in the east, at least in the last decade. I don't think I'm ever going to be able to go back to class. I bounce some ideas off a couple people who practice different styles informally, but they're Okinawan karate guys, so don't have too much input for Chinese methods.

I can actually see the karate in your movements. It's as clear as day. Try to be softer, faster, and strike harder. That's all I can say. I can see, in your stepping, what an Okinawan karate teacher I knew and practiced with called "spring-loading the step". From that angle, it's good karate mechanics. I can't say it's bad mechanics for SD, because I've seen TKD and Karate guys adapt SD material to their mechanics and still hit hard. But, alas, it is somewhat incorrect, because you lose the rhythm and movement of the material. BTW, when you do use power, I can see it. Kicks look good. I'll see if I can get se meng tao lian and fei hu chu tung up soon.:)

Man, if I could grow hair like that....LOL.......:D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

[brucereiter]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.

for those of you who have not seen my practice ...
yang "64" section 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

chen xinjia section 1 yang 64 section 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw

some push hands practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJMLvM

hsing i beng chuan practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

hsing i linking form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1fpOAkhIEo

[bodhi warrior]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me ;)

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).


While the movements were performed differently than the way I was taught, I did think you had good power and intent.

[BM2]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

[Leto]

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.




thanks for your input, these are things I will think about.

I, too, would like to see a demo of some of the basic material from a senior practicioner. The "real" way to perform these forms can't be some big secret that shouldn't be filmed, since they are taught to thousands of new students all over the country every year. Is there really a worry that someone will "steal" the forms?

wookie noticed my si men tao lian was performed a lot differently. The main thing which I did significantly differently than I was taught was that I made the hand techniques relaxed and whipping, rather than rigid chops. Also, my stepping was not in exaggerated low bow stance, but more of a san he/sanchin stance.

The only thing I really did on that performance of fei hu chu dong which was different was I focused on the elbows of the ripping motions instead of the hands, which made it a smaller motion. Also, I made the double arm drop (which was there when I first learned it but removed by the masters a year or so later), the double elbow double backfist move more fluid than normal, getting my back into the action (a little too much on that particular take, IMO). Sort of a wounded tiger feel, because it reminded me of the techniques in the black tiger form.

[Judge Pen]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.

[Judge Pen]

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

[Judge Pen]

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

[Old Noob]

So, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

We're taught:

1. Bow
2. Raise right leg, lift hands to shoulder-level in front, and step back into LBS tiger position. Performing that motion seems to create a single downward rake of sorts but it's a little wierd because that first movement is the only 'backward' movement of the form.
3. Then the horizontal rakes, etc., etc.

This post was referring to my notes. So I notice that we have ommitted the counter-clockwise movement of the right claw while sinking into the LBS. After the double elbows/backfist, we do back trap, back kick as JP said they do in VA.

[Judge Pen]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)

[naja]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

[MasterKiller]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

[Judge Pen]

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

Have you ever seen a feinted first kick lead to a sucsessfully landed second kick? If so, its very rare. I don't like the idea of feints because it leads to wasted movement and it rarely works against anyone with any experience because they don't over-react to movement. There are tricky fighters out there to be sure, so it may have a place, but for me, if I make the first kick work then great. If it doesn't, you continue to follow through to the next technique.

[Judge Pen]

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

[Lamassu]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.

[Judge Pen]

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

[Lamassu]

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

I think a double snap kick is primarily one of those 'when-the-oppurtunity-presents-itself' kinda thing. I definetly see how the first kick could be used to break open the block, but the second kick is pretty much aimed in the same area and could be blocked as well. The problem with the double snap is that it telegraphs your intent too easily. In the end, the best way to avoid a double snap is with a mere L-step to your opponents outside, and he's suddenly open for a counter.

[Lamassu]

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

???????:confused:

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

[Golden Tiger]

then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.


Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

[Judge Pen]

Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

:D Yes it is. In Hua, you have to have freaky flexibility to actually make the backtrap a back kick that reaches above the waist as you cannot turn your hips toward the direction of the kick. In Fei Hu you can easily turn the hips so the form becomes almos a spinning back kick instead of the back-trap that seems to be done everywhere else.

[Judge Pen]

???????:confused:

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

Yes. See GT's very astute observation.

[Judge Pen]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.

[kungfujunky]

ive added tai peng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00tXwpycOM


but it is a poor vid

i usually am much much lower on stances....ill have to redo a bunch of these this weekend

and ill do tiger how i practice it so you can see the difference

thx for the input!

[tattooedmonk]

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.Cool .I agree with your views Good stuff.

I like chin na so, I see it as someone has grabbed your left wrist , the left hand rise, the right hand grabs underneath as you step back and left tiger claw to the arm , face .

I am glad we are having disscussions like this . If they were all like this we would be at a1000 right now.:D

[tattooedmonk]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.I like it because of the control.

[tattooedmonk]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)How so?????:D

[brucereiter]

Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

with age comes wisdom ... good comment gt ...

[BM2]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

Yeah, the back trap, back kick is how I was taught too. I never liked it and would do to back kicks instead. But we didn't put our foot down between kicks.

[Leto]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you. :)

No, it is not the way I was taught. It is taught with full dynamic tension (until the attack sequence at the end). Another experiment, I was watching the way white crane and other southern styles practice their sanzhan/sanchin forms. Our movements are close to those others, so I decided to try it as a practice of jing instead of a body toughening exercise. I only had tension on the retraction, not the expansion. I was also trying to "feel" it as a crane form, rather than just a supplementary exercise as it tends to be treated at CSC.

[kwaichang]

As a close in tech the back trap is useful I have used it effectively when you trap the knee the opponent goes back or their leg is broken at the knee Then the side or back kick can be thrown I have used it this way. Also the hands can deflect a kick and the leg trap can close followed by the kick if thrown low the kick becomes a sweep at thigh level It works too. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I prefer it Bruce Lee style--gettitng crazy momentum to strike hard and push all the way through.

[Judge Pen]

Back Trap, back kick, its all in the application of the technique and how the situation presents itself. I was taught the form both ways and see pros and cons to each. I like the flow of the back trap to back kick combo, but see issues with accuracy and power generation for the back trap if the opponent is not at short distance. The back kick is more powerful (as a result of having to turn your hips into that kick it becomes a spinning kick actually) which can work at short to medium distances very effectively, but it requires, for a brief moment your back to be turned to your opponent (always a negative on spinning techniques) and its more difficult to do and makes it harder to flow into the second kick. Plus you lose some of the variation in the low/high effect of the trap/kick combo.

So where does that leave me.....?

It leaves me with two techniques as opposed to one that fit right in to the intent of the form. It leaves me with variations that can be used under different circumstances. It leaves me with an "extra" technique that is actually more physically difficult to do. It leaves me with more options. So I don't begrudge these differences (or the fact that I've learned little quirks like this through most of my forms up to 2nd black). I appreciate the differences for what they are and use what seems to work for me under the circumstances.

[Judge Pen]

KFJ,

What's the purpose behind the little hop before the larger jump into the low bird stance? I can see the form in there (as I know it) but there are a ton of little "flairs" or extra movements that I'm not familiar with.

[kungfujunky]

from what i understood it is a gaining space as you trap or double smack an opponents strike coming in...


mainly just gaining space

[Shaolin Wookie]

ive added tai peng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00tXwpycOM


but it is a poor vid

i usually am much much lower on stances....ill have to redo a bunch of these this weekend

and ill do tiger how i practice it so you can see the difference

thx for the input!

Make sure you finish the technique. I know you're doing it slow, but your arms never reach full striking range. They hit recoil range, but never the contact range. Then, that's probably due to doing it slow to demonstrate the technique for comparison. The way I have it, though, the hands strike in fan finger form a couple of times, but the side hand strike after the first low reverse bow and the kneeling doulbe palm strike to the side are both done with a solid palm formation as are the bird's "holding ball" motions.

[Judge Pen]

Make sure you finish the technique. I know you're doing it slow, but your arms never reach full striking range. They hit recoil range, but never the contact range. Then, that's probably due to doing it slow to demonstrate the technique for comparison. The way I have it, though, the hands strike in fan finger form a couple of times, but the side hand strike after the first low reverse bow and the kneeling doulbe palm strike to the side are both done with a solid palm formation as are the bird's "holding ball" motions.

I havent' decided if that's something KFJ is doing himself or if its taught that way. He did the same thing with Tiger and Leto's videos showed some "shortening" of the technique based on how I know it. It may be that it is practiced that way under the CSC. One of the CSC guys want to enlighten us on that?

[Leto]

I havent' decided if that's something KFJ is doing himself or if its taught that way. He did the same thing with Tiger and Leto's videos showed some "shortening" of the technique based on how I know it. It may be that it is practiced that way under the CSC. One of the CSC guys want to enlighten us on that?

I don't think it's so much taught as a common problem that isn't corrected often enough, at least in tai peng. That form at least should be "big", as it's name. The movements I shortened, like the ripping in fei hu and some in si men, was my own decision and not how it is taught, though maybe it is taught with less extension than you know it. I'd have to see your version to compare to.
In general, in punching and other striking, it is taught to never lock out the elbows. This is to avoid hyperextending the joint when throwing a technique, and avoid getting grabbed and locked or broken after having thrown a technique. This is ingrained into people during basics punching practice, and carries over into the forms. I don't disagree with the premise, I just think it gets exaggerated. In the forms, there are definately points where it is taught that there should be full extension, big movements, and many people have to be reminded over and over, as their basics training has taught them never to fully extend (or there is some predisposition not to do this in most people). This is what I saw in my school, and in the students from other CSCs around the west when we had testing and festivals.

[kungfujunky]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

i will do a few more vids this weekend that will better demonstrate some of the power and snap that is commonly used by upper level students when practicing these forms

[Judge Pen]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

i will do a few more vids this weekend that will better demonstrate some of the power and snap that is commonly used by upper level students when practicing these forms

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

Hyperextension is bad. It can cause damage to the joint and allow one to leave an extremity exposed to counter-attack. But there has to be a certain degree of extension to create proper alignment between the joints and the bones so that the body supports itself and you can strike with power and not cause injury to the joints. Its a "Goldilocks" effect--two much extension is bad; not enough extension is bad, but proper extension is "just right." I don't know if my friend's training with the CSC is typical, but I would be concerned with injury trying to strike the way he was shown by his teachers.

I'm not saying all of this to be critical as I really lack a foundation into the CSC methods to be pointing fingers. I know, very well, that there is some large inconsistency among the level of instruction in martial arts schools, so I don't know if its one teacher's miss-application or a larger issue (or, in fairness, my friends misunderstanding of his new instruction). I appreciate the sharing of knowledge and ideas with all the SD people and if I disagree with how something is taught, I want to do it congenially. There's two much politics and back-biting going on as it is. :)

[tattooedmonk]

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

Hyperextension is bad. It can cause damage to the joint and allow one to leave an extremity exposed to counter-attack. But there has to be a certain degree of extension to create proper alignment between the joints and the bones so that the body supports itself and you can strike with power and not cause injury to the joints. Its a "Goldilocks" effect--two much extension is bad; not enough extension is bad, but proper extension is "just right." I don't know if my friend's training with the CSC is typical, but I would be concerned with injury trying to strike the way he was shown by his teachers.

I'm not saying all of this to be critical as I really lack a foundation into the CSC methods to be pointing fingers. I know, very well, that there is some large inconsistency among the level of instruction in martial arts schools, so I don't know if its one teacher's miss-application or a larger issue (or, in fairness, my friends misunderstanding of his new instruction). I appreciate the sharing of knowledge and ideas with all the SD people and if I disagree with how something is taught, I want to do it congenially. There's two much politics and back-biting going on as it is. :)This is absolutely correct. I have not studied with the Soards for a few years now but, I never learned it the way it is done now.

I see a great deal of wasted energy, motion and a lack of understanding of basic principles and fundamentals.

Beause most people doing SD are not professionals I think the Soards are afraid to be critical in fear of their students leaving.

This not directed at anyone who posted videos . I give you all props my shaolin brothers, NO MATTER what is said here. :D

[tattooedmonk]

it is taught to not fully extend the arms.

Keyword here is fully. I would say practice on working through a full range of motion and on application drilling the moves with a partner:):cool::D

[kungfujunky]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

[Judge Pen]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.


I considered that about your size as it does conceal the amount of force one can generate with what seems like less motion. That’s a good thing as people will underestimate your actual speed and flexibility.

As far as practicing the technique, I believe in making the movements larger to train in a full range of motion. I think its easier to learn to shorten a movement (as the circumstances dictate) then it is to lengthen it.

A clear example is the difference in one-step sparring technique vs. application. We learn large steps and large movements at first, but the application if much shorter and faster. No one, no matter how physically gifted, can make those large sweeping steps and strikes work in an uncontrolled environment, but learning the larger movements allow one to focus on the principles of hip-rotation, power generation and angled stepping. Once those fundamentals are understood, the application of "one-step" is easier, more fluid, more applicable, and much, much "smaller" in terms of actual movement.

[kungfujunky]

good point!

[brucereiter]

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

i will be in denver on july 20th ...

[kungfujunky]

serious? i believe that is my test date but if at all possible id like to meet up.

i believe i still have your number so ill give you a call when we get closer to that day.

lmk if thats cool with you

[Shaolin Wookie]

I know a couple of guys that I trained with that are now training with the CSC. Both are excellent martial artists. One is very happy with the training. The other isn't and one of the things the second one complained to me about was the "extension" issue. He was showing me some examples from short form that, to me, show a misunderstanding of the maxim "don't lock the elbow for fear of injury".

I've noticed this, too. I call it SD-itis....LOL. My Longfist teacher taught full extension, and some SD people taught no-extension. They're both extremes of wrong ideas. You have to go to almost full extension, because you have to follow-through with every technique and punch through the target. Plus, some of the forms, especially Jingang Fu Hu Quan, employ grabbing techniques, and you have to reach or you'll literally never reach your target.

SD-itis perturbs me to no end....:D.

I don't think it's taught, so much as people "contract" it from bad demos in-class.

The thing to remember is----your hand isn't the begginning and end of the technique. Your entire arm is. Think of Jingang/Fei Hu chu tung's downward swipes as both strikes and line-clearing motions. Use your entire arm to clear what's in your path, not just the hands and wrist.

[Shaolin Wookie]

i do understand the need to extend enough for power generation.

in my 1 step training and sparring i have never heard someone complain i wasnt hitting them hard enough lol

i think this is more a matter of each persons physical makeup. for me i generate a lot of power with the way i punch and strike. i have broken boards with the types of strikes i use without pushing through the board.

i have worked a lot on the principles of snap and power and i believe i do it the way my body dictates.

the motions on the forms are just motions done slowly. it is entirely possible i need to focus on expanding those motions more during my practice of them.

I am all about trying to get better. My size is a bit misleading as i am very fast and flexible. but my size also might give the impression i am not fully striking out as well.

so i will do some more vids this weekend to try and better show exactly how i do this in real speed.

thx for the input everyone!

i cant wait until i get to cross hands and train with some of you.

Just remember, though, that some motions aren't about speed and snap, but about pulling power (takedown drags), pushing power (especially in tai peng and se meng) and ripping power. Don't conflate the "hyperextension" rule. Wushu guys do straight arm techniques and don't have hyperextension issues. Granted, they don't hit things much, but still.....you get the point. A guy your size would get massive power with more extension.

My expeirence is, your body will tell you when enough is enough, and you'll rarely go beyond what's necessary. But it looks like you pull your techniques prematurely.

When I say bigger motions---bigger circles, longer strikes, etc. Practice them big, apply them small.

[Shaolin Wookie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

I'm betting the source of our MA, being SD, was something like Ching Woo. Granted, not Ching Woo itself, so much as a conglomeration of specialists teaching random things. It's a Bizarre mix presented confusingly by the SD cirriculum. Just look at the basics:

Jeet Kuen-----Eagle Claw
Hai Lung chong---monkey-style staff routine. There are a ****load of monkey techniques in this form. I can literally dress it up and perform it in "monkey" style and you wouldn't bat an eye. You'd see it immediately. We just don't teach it very "showy".
Jingang------some kind of "mountain tiger"
Tai Chi 64----a Taiwanese import of Cheng Man Ching
Tai Peng----an obviously rare style, but one very important to the identity of the original school.....since Hiang specializes in it.
Lian Wu Zhang---the only other parallel to it on the net is TAiwanese (google Su Ke Gang "Kung Fu in the Park"). Some commonalities, but different forms entirely.
San He---southern tension exercises reminiscent of Hakka/ crane stuff.
Short Forms---the foundation of all our techniques, but classic Longfist. Our most karate-like forms, and Longfist's most karate-likee forms as well.
Lohan Quan----some kind of mantis, but who knows what. Definately not Lohan, though.
Ippons---kung fu movements, but presented in Japanese form.



Nevertheless, our crane is very different from the common white crane forms, and our two beginning tigers are unique. The black tiger is comparable to other black tiger demos, excepting the crappy modern shaolin version, which completely sucks....LOL......

I've got a clip of Jingang to upload. It's pretty decent. Hopefully it'll redeem the form after the Dancing Queen video on youtube ruined it...LOL. I can't open it on my computer yet....technical difficulties trying to copy from a digital recorder. I'll post it in a week or two when I have time to mess around with it. Due to my new job's steady hours and overtime, I can get off this seven day schedule I've been working for five years and get my weekends and holidays back....LOL. FREEDOM!!!!

[brucereiter]

serious? i believe that is my test date but if at all possible id like to meet up.

i believe i still have your number so ill give you a call when we get closer to that day.

lmk if thats cool with you

good luck on your test ... give me a call ...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

[MasterKiller]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

Shoulder rolling like that in forms is usually "jing" training.

[TenTigers]

jeet kuen isn't Ying Jow P'ai, it is a Jing Mo set , but Lau Fat-Man taught at Jing-Mo, so the forms were incorperated into Ying Jow P'ai.

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;869879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

This form shows alot of similarities to our chie chien.

[mkriii]

Shoulder rolling like that in forms is usually "jing" training.

Are you referring to fa jing as in explosive energy?

[Leto]

Here's the shoulder motion I think the CSC's tiger is trying to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRlcWwbdP2s

Grandaddy's a little old, so it's not as fluid, but I think the shoulder roll is what's important. The hands just tend to follow the shoulder. How much you want to wave your hands seems inconsequential, IMO. But I kind of roll them with the shoulders and chamber. That's all that seems important.

That is more reminiscent of the black tiger forms than anything I've seen so far. most of the videos out there are shaolin or wudang wushu performance tiger forms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

jeet kuen isn't Ying Jow P'ai, it is a Jing Mo set , but Lau Fat-Man taught at Jing-Mo, so the forms were incorperated into Ying Jow P'ai.


Thanks. I couldn't find any info on it before except as a set list of eagle claw.

[Shaolin Wookie]

[QUOTE=Shaolin Wookie;869879]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2UVMjy73qs

Another Jeet Kuen vid online. Clearly the link to our Chie Chien. If Jeet Kuen is explicitly Ying Jow Pai, as I think it is, that's one more style added to the Brown Belt regime--Eagle Claw. The Tiger-style label our Chie Quan has been under is misleading.

This form shows alot of similarities to our chie chien.

Yeah, especially when Jeet Kuen's alternate name is Chie Quan or Che Quan. I don't know much chinese. I assume it's a dialect difference, maybe mandarin/cantonese, or something.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Are you referring to fa jing as in explosive energy?

No. He's talking about the "jing" which is the expressed or mobilized internal power of chi---which is just an energy source/reserve. In essence, it's like a motor that distributes the energy of the fuel tank's potential. But it's not that explosive power. Chi won't circulate by itself, necessarily.

[Shaolin Wookie]

most of the videos out there are shaolin or wudang wushu performance tiger forms.

And they suck ass, too. Shaolin's contemporary stuff is some of the worst martial arts I've ever seen. I'd seriously rather watch a TKD tournament forms competition than watch another modern shaolin demo.

I swear, you pose, you flip, you pose, you flip, you pose, a butterfly twist into a pose..............:rolleyes:. I'm sure it's very hard, but it's incredibly boring.

I always liked that wudang tiger form that's out there by the dude with the headband and the robes. I like his form. He also demos a dragon form.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a question for our internal guys.

From what I know, you're never supposed to reach a stable horse-stance type of position in Yang Tai Chi. After the opening position with the arm raise, yin and yang separate, in a philosophical way, and they play around during the form. This is why you're never supposed to be even-weighted or stationary (as it's a stagnant position, and your'e always supposed to be moving), especially for applications, because you're supposed to be rooted on one side and not on the other so much. Even where the form reaches cross-hands horse stances, one leg (the left) is substantial, and the other is insubstantial, as in you're about to step with it in another direction, so it doesn't carry quite as much weight and therefore it doesn't qualify as a horse stance. In our first closed hands position, we move behind into another Grasp the Sparrow's Tail directly behind, whereas Cheng Man Ching's original 37 form moves into, I think, an "embrace the dragon" position , or something like that, which is kind of like brushing the knee, and then into Grasp the Sparrow's Tail . Also, on the pigeon-toed stance in between "the fair lady weaves the shuttle", we're keeping the weight mostly in the leg where the hands reset into a holding ball to chamber for the next "fair lady"---the leg which will provide a root so we can step with the other. So, according to this fundamental rule, we never reach an even weighted horse...except for our non-stepping cloud hands.

I'm not sure why we dont step, except for the resetting of the back foot on the slanting position, but I don't see a way to resolve this idea of even-weightedness in this stance. Are you supposed to shift your weight as you rotate the hips and torso, or do you stay in a stable stance. I was directed, not by the Master of the school, but by some sifus, to stay in a horse stance. Am I supposed to weight myself on the left leg if my hands are on the left side, then on the right if my hands are on the right or vice-versa? Were they just recommending something I might know from external studies to give me a reference as a starting point to then hammer out?

If I shift my weight, I'm not talking about a big shift---just the subtle shift that's in the closed-hands position. I have to imgaine that there is an imbalance, and I got a somewhat misleading recommendation for the high ma bu, because we have to pivot out the left foot at the end of cloud hands, shift the weight onto it and sweep around with the back leg, then shift the weight back and move into the single whip. In my wushu footwork drills in Longfist, I was drilled constantly on shifting from a horse in one direction to a horse in the other direction. There's very subtle things going on in that shift--where the weight rests, when to shift the weight, when to turn out the back foot, when to lift it up and set it down, and when to punch. I could do this with the cloud hands horse easily, if it were a horse. But is it a horse?:confused: BTW, my Longfist teacher was the best Tai Chi practitioner I've ever seen in person....granted, I've never seen SM Gary's in person...:D....as I didn't value my Tai Chi enough to take his Tai Chi workshops when they were available :o.

I'm a bit confused on this, and would really appreciate any input.

The other question: When we move from Grasp the Sparrow's Tail into Single Whip, I've often been taught (just like Cheng Man Ching's form) to allow both hands to rotate counter clockwise to face the other direction.

Now, because we were in a right forward bow stance, our feet were wide in that position. We can't really make a complete 180, can we? I was told to move from a bow in one direction to a bow in the other direction, then the hands float down a little as the left foot draws in a little. I have very strong legs, but I can't for the life of me do this without keeping my pelvis aligned with that 150 degree plane or something along that line. I drag my left foot and overweight my right leg and keep it bowed out to light-straining if I do it this way without resetting it. I have to imgaine that you must shift the weight, or, reset the waist at least.

For the sake of application, I prefer SD's version, so long as I can reset the waist and keep it on that 150 degree plane (I really don't know that it's 150--just an estimate). But this means I never really shift my weight completely forward. I'm fine with that, but maybe you guys could explain this better for me.

My feet get crossed if I try the 180 degree rotation (I can do it with a narrower stance, just like I can in anything internal/external, but I really don't want to compromise my stability and root, so I'm trying not to "cheat" the technique.). In Cheng Man Ching's form, as in most Yang, you shift about 150 degrees or so, without turning out the left foot when turning out of the right bow stance. Rather, you turn that 150 degrees or so, and then rest on the left leg, which hasn't rotated. This allows you to reset the right foot a little and get the rotation you need as you then reset your weight on your right foot, and prepare for single whip by chambering the left foot a little before stepping back out into a stable left bow stance.

How am I supposed to do it, in SD's terms? Some of my teachers are female, and their center of balance is different b/c of their hips. For instance, they draw their leg around in the circle reset step after "sealing the hands/closing door" much further than I need to. When I do it their way, I strain my left knee too much because I have to draw my leg in way too far. I asked the Master of the school, and he immediately diagnosed the problem without even thinking...LOL....and fixed my issue. Is this another instance of the difference in female/male balance? Ah........LOL.....the yin and the yang are a biotch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

BTW....this book is an excellent resource for SD Tai Chi practitioners:

http://www.amazon.com/Cheng-Tzus-Thirteen-Treatises-Tai-Chuan/dp/0938190458/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214658838&sr=8-1

[Leto]

And they suck ass, too. Shaolin's contemporary stuff is some of the worst martial arts I've ever seen. I'd seriously rather watch a TKD tournament forms competition than watch another modern shaolin demo.

I swear, you pose, you flip, you pose, you flip, you pose, a butterfly twist into a pose..............:rolleyes:. I'm sure it's very hard, but it's incredibly boring.

I always liked that wudang tiger form that's out there by the dude with the headband and the robes. I like his form. He also demos a dragon form.

The wudang is more interesting, but nothing like ours. I've seen the wudang dragon form, it seems a bit "wushu" to me...I think modern wudang has become a bit like modern shaolin, just not quite as popular.

and the name "jeet kune" is exactly "jie quan" or "chie chien", just from Cantonese instead of Mandarin and whatever dialect GM The speaks.

here's another jie quan, from chin woo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kRCd5PNB2zY

[MasterKiller]

No. He's talking about the "jing" which is the expressed or mobilized internal power of chi---which is just an energy source/reserve. In essence, it's like a motor that distributes the energy of the fuel tank's potential. But it's not that explosive power. Chi won't circulate by itself, necessarily.

No, mark is correct. "Rolling" and "wiggling" can be used to train short, explosive, external power.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, mark is correct. "Rolling" and "wiggling" can be used to train short, explosive, external power.

It would make sense then for the next strikes. I guess i misinterpreting the many "jings" in Chinese.:o

[Judge Pen]

Wookie,

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.

[kungfujunky]

yes we are not double weighted but shifting our weight from side to side as bruce has stated not far back actually

[Golden Tiger]

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.


While I am neither JP's teacher or an internal specialist, I can add my 2 cents. When the right hand raises (for example) it should start with the shifting of the weight to the right side begining by rotating the knee and hips ever so slightly, to the right, stopping the motion when the hand reaches the apex of the movement. The weight distribution at about 60/40 or maybe even 61/39 if you want to be technical. ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

The weight distribution at about 60/40 or maybe even 61/39 if you want to be technical. ;)

LOL..........I love body weight percentages. I measure them by how many muscle cramps and twitches I get in my posterior per second.

Thanks. I'm sure they were giving me a rough idea of what I was doing to start me off.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's some info a guy with Jing Mo was kind enough to email me with on the history of Jeet Kuen:

"You are correct that information on this set is very difficult to locate. What information that we have is very little and you more than likely already know.

Chao Lin Ho (Zhao Lianhe) introduced this particular set to the Jing Mo (Ching Wu) curriculum and became part of the standard 10 Jing o sets that is requireed to learn. It is our understanding that this set was originally part of the Mi Tsung style's curriculum. (Mi Tsung was GM Chao's original style). GM Chao learned this set from Zhao Zhilian in Hutou Villiage, Jian County, Hebei Province.

We're sorry that we cannot add any more information on this set. We too are researching for history and this is all we found so far. If you have any aditional information that you like to share, please do. "

[brucereiter]

Wookie,

I'm not an internal specialist, but in tai chi 64, while doing the cloud hands, I slightly shift my weight with the movement. I'll ask my teacher about it next time we work out together.

in my opinion the weight transfer practice in time with your hands is very important.
a basic description is:
weight in r leg / r hand hi l hand lo
weight in center both hands pass at solar plexes.
weight in l leg l hand hi r hand lo

this transition is a continues movement shifting weight from right to left with out stopping

this is how i understand it ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

[mkriii]

I don't mean to de-rail the topic but ShaolinWookie, how are the kip ups going? Got it down? Have you tried the no hand kip ups like I had mentioned?

[bodhi warrior]

Anyone know about tim nance from the shaolinlegends website? He has a new sparring video, and was wondering if it be worth a look?

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about the video, but Master Nance has a great understanding on practical applications. I would be interested in seeing the video since I was very impressed with the seminar I had taken from him 4 years ago.

[brucereiter]

Anyone know about tim nance from the shaolinlegends website? He has a new sparring video, and was wondering if it be worth a look?

some of the footage was shared with me a while back and i thought it was done well. worth checking out for sure.

[brucereiter]

I was very impressed with the seminar I had taken from him 4 years ago.

me too! that was a great learning experience ...

[bodhi warrior]

Thanks for the input. I'll probably get it. It's nice to see some SD guys put out some good quality stuff. Can you imagine if Eric Smith put out something? Now that would be a good video!

[naja]

I was wondering about that video myself. I've heard good things about him, but the videos on that sight seem a little, well, cheesy. I was hoping that they would be better than they appeared.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I don't mean to de-rail the topic but ShaolinWookie, how are the kip ups going? Got it down? Have you tried the no hand kip ups like I had mentioned?

It's actually funny. Some days I can do them no problem (with hands), and then other days I can only get to my feet and then fall back down. I can't figure out what in the hell I'm doing wrong when I'm doing it wrong, and what I'm doing right when I'm doing it right:confused::confused::confused:.

[Shaolin Wookie]

It's an instructional video, not a full contact cage match....lol...so there is restraint. I can tell you this: I hear that of all you can learn from MAster Nance, his greatest lessons are in very practical sparring techniques and applications, and that he's a wizard at sweeping. Personally, I think his fist looks like a sledge hammer, but then there's a couple of guys in SD that by size and shape alone (Mullins, Nance, Reid, GM The' of course) that I wouldn't want to cross for a billion dollars. Those guys are built like freight trains.

One of the sparring "dummies" :p (just kiddin') is one of my sifus. He's pretty innovative and can pick you apart with his boxing alone.

It'll probably be a pretty sweet tutorial.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Although the guy at Jing Mo said that he thought Jeet Kuen came from Mizhong, a senior of his mentitoned that it came from Erlang Quan.

All in all, the basic conclusion is: Longfist. It's all the same.:) Differentt patterns.

Big whoop. But it's definately not tiger.;)

[shen ku]

sorry had to post something,,,,,,,just couldn't let it die?? how elsa would i know how knox. alt. austin. lex. and all you other SD guys are doing?

[kungfujunky]

Pand Loong Chien for me today!

Woohoo!

[kwaichang]

What is Pang Loong Chien I have heard of Pang Loong Pang but not the other can you describe it ?? KC

[kungfujunky]

hsing yi entwine the dragon straight sword....you havent seen that kc?

you have to have seen it.

pm me my friend and lets compare notes.

oh and i passed my test under the Grandmaster. thx to all who sent me well wishes!

[OTD]

KFJ & KC
I believe the correct name is:
Hsing Ie Panh Lung Chièn
Hsing Ie Entwine of the Dragon Sword

Just my 2¢
OTD

[brucereiter]

KFJ & KC
I believe the correct name is:
Hsing Ie Panh Lung Chièn
Hsing Ie Entwine of the Dragon Sword

Just my 2¢
OTD

i remember sin the saying it was "xin" yi not "xing" yi. my chinese is bad but that is a slightly different art than "xingyiquan/hsingichuan ...

[OTD]

Mr Bruce et all
Please see attached.
OTD

[kungfujunky]

otd thx for the correction...and actually bruce in hearing the history/background he said it was xin but then was changed to xing.....

i was unclear why the change as i was exhausted after learning the form and was only half present haha

great form with some excellent footwork!

[peace&love]

I hope everyone is doing well today. I have read and studied info found along this thread as well as many others found in the Kung Fu Magazine Forums. I have always found this particular thread fascinating. Recently, it appears this thread has a greater concentration on technique and discussions related to the actual practice of kung fu. I hope this continues. When I first read through this thread, I saw mostly individuals being hateful and egotistical. Now that comment does not include those that were being humorous in good fun about some of the question marks behind Shaolin Do. Hopefully, good discussions on technique, history, and self discovery with the help of others will continue. I'm looking forward to it and hope that I am welcomed.

[Old Noob]

I hope everyone is doing well today. I have read and studied info found along this thread as well as many others found in the Kung Fu Magazine Forums. I have always found this particular thread fascinating. Recently, it appears this thread has a greater concentration on technique and discussions related to the actual practice of kung fu. I hope this continues. When I first read through this thread, I saw mostly individuals being hateful and egotistical. Now that comment does not include those that were being humorous in good fun about some of the question marks behind Shaolin Do. Hopefully, good discussions on technique, history, and self discovery with the help of others will continue. I'm looking forward to it and hope that I am welcomed.

This thread has been around for a while and is definitely in one of its better, more mature, phases. Welcome.

[BM2]

This thread has been around for a while and is definitely in one of its better, more mature, phases. Welcome.

Then I start posting again:p HA! So much for the better, more mature phase;)

[Old Noob]

Then I start posting again:p HA! So much for the better, more mature phase;)

You probably qualify for the "mature" part, at least by some definitions don't you?:D

[peace&love]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

[Judge Pen]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

I have attended several seminars by GMT. They usually do include a recording which is good because GMT usually is on a pretty tight schedule and its hard to retain a form in the 6 or 8 hours he spends teaching a seminar. At least with my teachers, they spend more time with GMT learning the form, the underlying principals and training methods and applications. They will then will scheudle several review classes to review the form and go over the training methods, principlas and applications that are not always touched on to any great degree during the one day seminar.

[mkriii]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? SD is not for everyone. Some have qustioned its legitamacy. I think that you should go check them out and determine for yourself. It all depends on what your looking for. SD might be what your looking for. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to what others say. Sin The' and SD have been around for a very long time so there must be something there worth while to learn. I personally don't do SD but i know some people that do and they like it.

[Judge Pen]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

There went the maturity level.... and Mark's hollow promise to be polite.

[Old Noob]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

Everyone has been so nice to you here lately, offering to help with your back problems and to train with you. Why are you flaming? I haven't heard anyone who has seen Sin The live criticise him. If you have a particular criticism from your own experience, share it. Otherwise, you needn't spread hate.

[Old Noob]

There went the maturity level.... and Mark's hollow promise to be polite.

Yep. I'm starting to feel some real irony in BM2's timing.

[mkriii]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

[Judge Pen]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

Based upon all of your past posts are you going to tell me I'm wrong? Lie to me baby, lie to me!

If you were implying something positive, you wouldn't have put "grandmaster" in quotes.

[Old Noob]

I didn't say anything bad about SD or Sin The'. How do you know I wasn't implying that the reactions from people were positive? You just assume the worst from me. You know what they say when you assume......you make an arse out of you and me.

Hypothoses based on the outcome of multiple hundreds of experiments are not assumptions. Your past behavior informs our hypothses.

How are you JP? I'm still working hard. Low on the totem pole, I'll be testing to blue next week.

[Judge Pen]

Hypothoses based on the outcome of multiple hundreds of experiments are not assumptions. Your past behavior informs our hypothses.

How are you JP? I'm still working hard. Low on the totem pole, I'll be testing to blue next week.

Good luck on your test.

I've been doing well. I won my last jury trial, but the jury may have employed a quotient verdict so we'll see if it holds up.

Hadn't had much time for training, but I'm hoping things will slow down a bit and I can get back into shape. Right now, I'm just trying to maintain what I have.

[mkriii]

Have I not been polite and nice lately? Did I not give advice on how to do no handed kip ups to ShaolinWookie? I've been contributing positively. So no I did not mean for that to come across as a insult.

[Judge Pen]

Have I not been polite and nice lately? Did I not give advice on how to do no handed kip ups to ShaolinWookie? I've been contributing positively. So no I did not mean for that to come across as a insult.

My mistake then.

So how was "grandmaster" Ng?

[Old Noob]

Good luck on your test.

I've been doing well. I won my last jury trial, but the jury may have employed a quotient verdict so we'll see if it holds up.

Hadn't had much time for training, but I'm hoping things will slow down a bit and I can get back into shape. Right now, I'm just trying to maintain what I have.

Hope your verdict sticks. In my reserve capacity, I'm assisting with a non-capital murder Court-martial next week. I'll get back to town just in time to go to the kwoon for the test. Busy is right. Thanks for the well-wishes.

[mkriii]

My mistake then.

So how was "grandmaster" Ng?

He was good. He was at work at the pharmacy. He was very busy with customers so my conversation with him consisted of him talking in between customers and him filling prescriptions but he seems to be doing good. He was telling me about why he didn't have the annual Mountain Fellowship Tournament. Frank S. supposedely took the pre-registration money and then didn't have the tournament. Dr. Ng and Frank had the parting of the ways because of this. Dr. Ng said he would start the tournament again in a few years after all that has settled down. I had been trying to get in touch with my teacher (Dufresne) and Dr. Ng told me the Dufresne was in China. I had not known that. That was about the extent of it. I had gone up to that part of Ky on business so I thought I would just stop in on the spurr of the moment to say hello.

[Judge Pen]

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? If your familiar with SD then you wouldn't even be asking that question. Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? If you have then you know what kind of reaction they gave you. Thats probably the same reaction you would give if you went to a seminar by "grandmaster" The'

was revised to:

Are you familiar with Shaolin Do? Have you ever mentioned SD to someone in Chinese martial arts that doesn't do SD? SD is not for everyone. Some have qustioned its legitamacy. I think that you should go check them out and determine for yourself. It all depends on what your looking for. SD might be what your looking for. Decide for yourself. Don't listen to what others say. Sin The' and SD have been around for a very long time so there must be something there worth while to learn. I personally don't do SD but i know some people that do and they like it.


I appreciate the revisions and the second post is fair, but really post whatever you feel like. If I don't like it, I'll call you out. I would expect the same from you.

I'm glad that grandmaster Ng seemed well. How's the back coming along?

[mkriii]

The back is healing really good. The inscision is still healing (scabbing). The doctor wants me to wait til October before going back to training. He said I could do tai chi if I wanted. The doctor (actually the Physicians Assistant) studied SD under John Fernandez here in Lexington on U.K.'s campus back in the late 70 and 80's at the U.K. Armery. So he is familiar with what all martial arts involves. Do you know of John Fernandez? It's funny because his daughter has a black sash under Dr. Ng but her dad has a black belt under GM The'. Fernandez's daughters name is Mary The' Fernandez, she was named after Sin The' because J. Fernandez and GM Sin were such good friends. For some reason the two had a arguement or something and Fernandez left Sin The'. Fernandez now claims to teach Shaolin Ryu Karate instead of Shaolin Do. Do you know anything about this? I actually insure J. Fernandez's car and home but have never asked about it. I didn't want to come across as nosey, even though I am......LOL. :)

[MasterKiller]

He was telling me about why he didn't have the annual Mountain Fellowship Tournament. Frank S. supposedely took the pre-registration money and then didn't have the tournament. Dr. Ng and Frank had the parting of the ways because of this. Dr. Ng said he would start the tournament again in a few years after all that has settled down.

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?

[Judge Pen]

The back is healing really good. The inscision is still healing (scabbing). The doctor wants me to wait til October before going back to training. He said I could do tai chi if I wanted. The doctor (actually the Physicians Assistant) studied SD under John Fernandez here in Lexington on U.K.'s campus back in the late 70 and 80's at the U.K. Armery. So he is familiar with what all martial arts involves. Do you know of John Fernandez? It's funny because his daughter has a black sash under Dr. Ng but her dad has a black belt under GM The'. Fernandez's daughters name is Mary The' Fernandez, she was named after Sin The' because J. Fernandez and GM Sin were such good friends. For some reason the two had a arguement or something and Fernandez left Sin The'. Fernandez now claims to teach Shaolin Ryu Karate instead of Shaolin Do. Do you know anything about this? I actually insure J. Fernandez's car and home but have never asked about it. I didn't want to come across as nosey, even though I am......LOL. :)

I've heard of him, but my understanding is that those events happened so long ago, and I am so far removed from it, that I don't know anymore than what you have posted. There may be some "old timers" here that know more, but choose to not say anything because of the belief that internal politics should be kept internal.

[Judge Pen]

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?

Like I said, internal politics should be kept internal.

[mkriii]

Honestly, bro. Don't you think you should keep discussions like this between you and your Sigung private?
No not really because it has already been posted a while ago by someone else. I was just validating what had already beed said. Someone had mentioned Frank's name about 8 months ago and this situation. Not anything new. Plus I think that GM Ng would want people to know that this isn't something that he condones and that he has seperated himself from Frank's actions. GM Ng has always preached "don't cheat people" and he has always preached about being honest and humble.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Has anyone been to a seminar or seminars by Sin The? Is so, what are the reviews? I have been to seminars by other teachers and they are sort of hit or miss. Most of the ones I have been to do not provide a recording of the form, etc., and since my memory is not that great in regards to these things, I tend to lose the material. Despite that, I do usually enjoy them because I can pick up a technique or application that I was not aware of before.

I like seminars, but...then....caveat emptor. I've attended most of the seminars I was interested in. I don't necessarily think that learning every seminar form is in any way beneficial to you, but sometimes what you think will least benefit you will in the end benefit you best. I discarded some of the seminar material I learned due to disinterest, but then, some of it is my daily routine, even at the cost of curriculum/testing-based material. For instance---monkey. Ground monkey and Crafty Hands are my daily routines, and I work their techniques on the bag most nights and play with the postures, etc. When I spar now, it's generally from a monkey philosophy. And that's not in the main cirriculum, so whatever understanding I have of it is a rare commodity in the system and gives me an upper hand. Also, Crazy Mad Drunk. Another good one for me. I discarded Entwine the Dragon Bo---not interested in it, and I recently came to appreciate the Golden Leopards some, after working with them for speed and paw-hooking type of opening moves. These forms made no sense to me until I started to hook with the leopard's paw. It also gave me the "feel" of the leopard style. Double Daggers is a staple, since it was my first one. But I did let some others go, simply for the fact they weren't really for me. Still, sometimes you'll find appreciation for them after a while. The schools in Atlanta will teach the form (Either GM Sin or other very high rank like Senior Master), provide detailed notes, usually with hte names of each move in