Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

[Judge Pen]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

I understand its a component of kung fu training, but not the "end all be-all" of kung fu training. But your statement seems to imply that its not even a component of "real kung fu". Care to elaborate?

[SDJerry]

You are correct, it still is.

Forms training is not the real 'kung fu.' Had this conversation with a Modern Wushu guy once, it drove him nuts.

Forms are nothing more than a grouping of different hands. Its no different than a boxer stringing together jabs, hooks, and uppercuts with proper footwork. Practicing the form alone would not make you a boxer however all the techniques you need to become one are in there. So IMO forms training is an important PART of kung fu training but not kung fu training as a whole.

[MasterKiller]

Forms are nothing more than a grouping of different hands. Its no different than a boxer stringing together jabs, hooks, and uppercuts with proper footwork. Practicing the form alone would not make you a boxer however all the techniques you need to become one are in there. So IMO forms training is an important PART of kung fu training but not kung fu training as a whole.

The boxing-to-kung fu analogy is not apples to apples.

A lot of kung fu forms contain moves that have absolutely no fighting application at all. Some moves are just for balance training, some are for exercise, and some are symbolic. Besides some real applications are so hidden that the form does not resemble the application at all.

When a boxer shadowboxes, all his techniques are 100% about fighting and look exactly like their application.

[BM2]

Didn't Bruce Lee say it best when he compared just doing forms to practicing swimming while on land?
And wasn't he far ahead of everyone else with MMA? I read (sorry,don't recall the actor's name) an '80s IKF article with his nemesis in Enter The Dragon,they both wanted to have grappling in the final fight scene but it was impossible when the actor had to wear that claw. Too bad that Jean Machado wasn't around back then.

[SDJerry]

The boxing-to-kung fu analogy is not apples to apples.

A lot of kung fu forms contain moves that have absolutely no fighting application at all. Some moves are just for balance training, some are for exercise, and some are symbolic. Besides some real applications are so hidden that the form does not resemble the application at all.

When a boxer shadowboxes, all his techniques are 100% about fighting and look exactly like their application.

If you look at the basic concept, they're both apples. Every part of a form has purpose or it would not be in there. The purpose might be to develop leg strength or balance but each is a requirement to be a good martial artist. I could have expanded upon my analogy to include different aspects but I didnt' feel it was necessary to get the point across.

A boxer trains the jab, it trains the hook, etc.... just like we should train different hands 'outside of the forms'. You have the form, you see the technique, now drill it outside the form so you can use it against a restiting opponent. Agree?

[tattooedmonk]

If you look at the basic concept, they're both apples. Every part of a form has purpose or it would not be in there. The purpose might be to develop leg strength or balance but each is a requirement to be a good martial artist. I could have expanded upon my analogy to include different aspects but I didnt' feel it was necessary to get the point across.

A boxer trains the jab, it trains the hook, etc.... just like we should train different hands 'outside of the forms'. You have the form, you see the technique, now drill it outside the form so you can use it against a restiting opponent. Agree?I agree . To expand on what you were saying , a boxer, when shadow boxing, bobs, weaves, does different footwork, etc. more than just punch. It ALL is meant to be transfered to fighting.

They are both apples , just different kinds of apples.:D

I would say that this is one of the problems with traditional arts, the applications and the way that the information is transfered is more or less lost. I personally believe that the forms should not be taught until last.( in some cases not at all).

All of the basics , conditioning, techniques, drills , applications , etc. should be taught first . The forms are just catalogs of the material . I believe that they are useful,just misunderstood.If the forms were taught /used the way they were meant to be, we would not be having this conversation.:D



Most students ( even teachers)who practice/teach forms do not know how to break them down and distinguish between what is used for application, conditioning, symbolism, etc, just like MK said. But this does not mean that they are not valuable or important to the training.:cool:

[ricardocameron]

On History channels's Human Weapon:Kung Fu episode...The Police kungfu demonstrated a front snap kick we SD'ers use. I loved the power-demo- breakdown. 1000 lbs. of force? Nice. :D

Also, halfway through the program @ Dengfeng, they show footage of the Chinese Army in the early parts of 20th century performing Block/Punch"Short Forms" very nearly as is done in Shaolin-Do! Nah, couldn't be....:rolleyes: Ah, Viva la Validation!:p

"Fall down seven times, Get up eight!"

[NJM]

On History channels's Human Weapon:Kung Fu episode...The Police kungfu demonstrated a front snap kick we SD'ers use. I loved the power-demo- breakdown. 1000 lbs. of force? Nice.


You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

No, we don't do toe-kicks to the face. GM The' once said--"It's a toe-kick. Duh! You kick the toes with a toe-kick." We only do butterfly twists to the face while wielding a judo katana.

[ricardocameron]

Why don't you empty your cup a little?.....:confused:

You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

* When you're talking about fighting, as it is, with no rules, well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!
o Bruce Lee: The Lost Interview (1971)

Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.

* p.44, Bruce Lee: fighting spirit, by Bruce Thomas, Frog, Ltd.(1994)

* Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
o Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey (2000)
o Here, Lee was recanting lines he wrote for his short lived role on the TV series Longstreet.

* Like everyone else you want to learn the way to win, but never to accept the way to lose — to accept defeat. To learn to die is to be liberated from it. So when tomorrow comes you must free your ambitious mind and learn the art of dying!
o Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey (2000)

[kwaichang]

I liked the kung fu weapon thing it confirmed alot of what GMT has said in SD. KC

[ricardocameron]

I liked the kung fu weapon thing it confirmed alot of what GMT has said in SD. KC

ya, those guys seemed to really like the old shaolin. they even noticed similarities to judo in kung fu. i wonder if they'll look into it again.

[BoulderDawg]

You mean you guys do toe-kicks to the face too? Wow, I guess Wushu isn't the only style that breaks KF fundamentals.

I saw that show and was wondering who taught those guys to lead with the toes.

They did have one master on there who really looked good...had a good roundhouse anyway.

I could have done without the jumping off the buildings and such.

The "match" at the end was not very good.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I saw that show and was wondering who taught those guys to lead with the toes.

They did have one master on there who really looked good...had a good roundhouse anyway.

I could have done without the jumping off the buildings and such.

The "match" at the end was not very good.

Only time I'd lead with the toes, I'd be wearing steel-toe boots....LOL.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Why don't you empty your cup a little?.....:confused:

Nope. Gotta build up my tolerance for drunken boxing and all....LOL.....

I was just playin', since everyone here thinks GM The' taught us all wrong.

"His name is Wimp Lo. We trained him wrong, as a joke."

"Wanna see my face to your foot style?"

[sean_stonehart]

Only time I'd lead with the toes, I'd be wearing steel-toe boots....LOL.....

Actually Reeboks or the hard leather soled shoes that JP & others wear are great for toe kicks

[kwaichang]

When i 1st studied Shoto Kan we were taught a toe kick we had to kick the heavy bag with it it hurt then but stopped later ever seen a close up of Barishnikovs foot ??? looks like it would hurt. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

I always wear skater shoes for the most part, and they've got a good solid flat surface with thick rubber soles. You can bet any kick I'd deliver would make use of that front corner....lol.....

[tattooedmonk]

I do not think that the toe kick actually means with the toes. From a physiological stand point, if you were not wearing hard toed shoes you would break your toes.Your toes are not designed for that type of abuse. From what I understand it just means the ball of your foot which is where the toes begin. Just my understanding. As you know, in SD, there is no training with shoes on in the school. Try kicking anything , no matter how tough you are , with your toes and you will see what I mean.

[sean_stonehart]

I do not think that the toe kick actually means with the toes. From a physiological stand point, if you were not wearing hard toed shoes you would break your toes.Your toes are not designed for that type of abuse. From what I understand it just means the ball of your foot which is where the toes begin. Just my understanding. As you know, in SD, there is no training with shoes on in the school. Try kicking anything , no matter how tough you are , with your toes and you will see what I mean.

Go watch Uechi-ryu people condition their toes for kicking & tell 'em it's wrong...


Go on... I double dawg dare you... :D:eek:

[kwaichang]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?

[tattooedmonk]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KCInside the school?? Because that is what I posted. The only person I have ever seen wear shoes in the school in GMT

[tattooedmonk]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?In addition if you plantar flex as you pull your toes back it locks all the bones of the feet in the proper position which increases the strength of the kick and eliminates the possibility of breaking the toes, in addition it gives you an added few inches of reach , not failing to mention proper alignment through the whole kinetic chain of the hip and leg.

and I am sure that using the toes or top of the foot and it being less vicious / powerful for use in sparring /class is a factor.

[tattooedmonk]

Go watch Uechi-ryu people condition their toes for kicking & tell 'em it's wrong...


Go on... I double dawg dare you... :D:eek:LMAO This type of training/ conditioning is not good for the toes. You and I both know this.:D

[BlueTravesty]

When I was learning Kung Fu (MyJhong LawHorn/ Mizong Luohan) we were taught that a front snap kick was only for two targets- the groin, and the chin. This kick used the top of the foot more than it did the toes.

I watched my friend's Tang Soo Do class once, and they were doing some SICK toe kicks... friggin' round kicks with the toes. It was hard to watch.

The only "ball of the foot" kick we were taught was the push kick, which was very similar to Muay Thai's foot jab, (and was only for the torso or hips) or the sidekick to the head (unlike the "normal" sidekick which used the heel.)

[Leto]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.

[kwaichang]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KC

[sean_stonehart]

Another misnomer I am in SD I train with shoes Boots and barefoot. KC

Gotta agree with the shoes... how often are you barefoot?

I used to train in 1960's issue artic boots from the USAF in my TKD days. They're a little better than ankle weights for speed drills with weighted legs, but the weight is distributed the length of your foot, not pulling straight down the leg as it slides up & down. Boots were a helluva an addition to conditioning. Changing shoes now depending on the brand can do the same.

[Judge Pen]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.

[tattooedmonk]

It may not be good for your toes, but the toe tip kick (mae geri) is used in several styles of Okinawan and Japanese karate. Some consider it a "special" technique of karate. Yes, you are literally supposed to kick with the tips of the toes, especially the big toe. Conditioning for this hurts like heck. It's meant to be a "piercing" technique, delivered to soft targets, almost like a pressure point strike. I always preferred yoko geri, kicking with the outside edge of the foot. Front kicks with the ball of the foot and thrusting kicks with the heel are also in karate, so it's not like the toe tip kick is the only way, but it's the one that gets the most attention earliest on. Maybe because it's the hardest to use and takes the longest to condition for.I am aware of this.

The likelyhood of you being able to use this in practical application is slim to none. More times than not if you get into "a situation" you are going to have your shoes on .

And if it is supposed to be used in soft target/ tissue areas what is the purpose in training it so hard ??( rhetorical question) Just doing your normal training in addition to iron bone training would condition your toes/feet to be hard and strong.

I remember the first time I saw it used, in the Karate Kid . Daniel got kicked in the eye with the big toe.:D

I have heard GMT refer to this on a few occasions as well

[tattooedmonk]

You can wear kung fu type shoes or train barefoot in our school. I personally wear shoes ever since spraining my big-toe while sparring (on my plant leg while doing a round-house--foot went one way, big toe went the other) for the support. Regardless, the technique can change slightly if you wear shoes. Usually the subtleties are mentioned when discussing applications.That is cool. I do both , but for practicality purposes I prefer shoes.

[tattooedmonk]

mY MISTAKE ttm i TRAIN OUT SIDE ALOT AND DO NOT WEAR SHOES IN THE SCHOOL UNLESS i HAVE A THLETES FOOT OR SOMETHING. PS SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS THING KCNo problem!:D

[Citong Shifu]

Exactly. I've never heard of a toe kick, but have noticed that most wushu schools do it (perhaps it has some kind of aesthetic value? or it's linked to the fact that they're wearing shoes [however, they're really flimsy shoes]--and my Longfist teacher once or twice told me not to curl my toes back, at which I kind of smiled quizzicly), and I've seen some TKD and Karate dudes who have joined SD as beginners do the same thing. I think they do top-of-the-foot kicks as well when they roundhouse, but SD insists on ball of the foot.

What's with that? You can kick much harder with the ball of the foot, plus, it drives up into the target viciously. What's with the toe thing? Is it a "shinpad" and "footguard" is kinder than a proper kick kind of mentality?

Toe kicks are common with all traditional CMA! As well as, the ball of the foot & heel. The various toe kick/s (front, round, outside cross, hook, spin hook, etc) are trained early on in ones training, due to these kicks being much harder to develop then those executed with the ball & heel of the foot. Secondly, these kicks (toe kicks) are used to attack "vital area's/point" (temple's, behid ear's, face, throat, armpit, solar plex, in between ribs, liver, bladder , kidney, groin, & nerve plexus throughout the body, etc). In old times the toes were conditioned insanely due war or not having good foot protection. Nonetheless, one can condition their feet/toe in a gradual manner without injury. Not like the old time, but enough to make it count....

I think it is important for us to remember that CMA conditioning, forms, drills, techniques, fighting, etc is purely a "state of mind" and does not define the CMA overall... I feel that things have been twisted in the last three pages of posts/replies, especialy all the noise about Bruce Lee and "FORMS", lol... There's more to that story than most are wanting to talk about.. ? Example; Ziranmen (natural boxing or natural gate boxing). The art of ZRM is to be natural (self expression) in all movements, never be fixed in any one "method" (sound familiar - BL), or define technique/s (this is a simple analysis of ZRM and detailed were applies to this conversation). Now, if my history of ZRM is correct and I can't see how its not (my teacher was a direct student of Sifu Wan Laishen), ZRM is way older than Bruce Lee, his methodology, & concepts. Whats this mean, Bruce was quoting CMA the whole time, lol.... All he did different was add judo, aikido, boxing, etc to his art (Jun Fan / JKD) in order to fill in the gaps (MMA), since he didn't know much grappling, jointlocking, and footwork outside of his wing chun training... Dont get me wrong, Bruce was a great fighter, he just didn't realize what he alreday had... This seems to be what I'm getting from alot of the post/replies here...

Train and discover the arts first, then let the art evolve.

Take care.
CS

[tattooedmonk]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

[Citong Shifu]

You are right, he had it all already, he just did not know it. I have attempted to explain this to people they just do not get it not matter how much info you put infront of them.

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

[Judge Pen]

I was reading the book "Chinese martial arts training manuals" and on page 204 there is a book called "fist classic;fist method". The original author is shaolin monk Xian ji, and the editors and compilers were zhang Ming e, and zhang kong zhao. Now I know this is wishful thinking, but could zhang Ming E be our E Zhang Ming?
what do you thing?

Any publishing information that we could contact the company? Contact the other autors? Ask GMS. Any other ideas?

[ricardocameron]

Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... [B]LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms).

Spot on! "Nothin's new under the Sun..."
Anyone ever heard of The Art of War by a guy named Sun Tzu? :D

[ricardocameron]

from www.mikementzer.com

"WARM MARBLE" The Lethal Physique of Bruce Lee

By John Little
Introduction by Mike Mentzer

It is absolutely amazing how much of an impact that Bruce Lee's strength and physical development have had on athletes, bodybuilders and average men all over the face of the globe. As a young boy in high school, I can clearly recall all of the talk among my friends about the great Bruce Lee; they all were intimately familiar with Bruce's films; and they would discuss not just his epochal martial arts skills, but, also, his incredible strength and lean, shredded physique.

Bruce LeeAs Mr. Little reports in his article, even such a personage as Joe Weider remarked on the astounding muscular refinement and definition of Lee's physique, especially the master's abs. As Mr. Little also explains, Bruce Lee's physique had a remarkable influence on some of today's top physique champs. Bodybuilding luminaries, including Lou Ferrigno, Lee Haney, Dorian Yates, Rachel Mclish, Lenda Murray, Flex Wheeler and Shawn Ray have all spoken on record concerning the enormous impact the physique of Bruce Lee had on them. Why? Why would the physique of the mighty mite, never massively developed along the lines of the bodybuilding greats I just enumerated, but described by some "as the most defined physique in the world." I leave that unanswered, as author, John Little, will provide an incisive, eloquent answer...

Subsections in the article will titillate the legion of existing Lee fanatics, and whet the appetite of those for whom this article will serve as their initial introduction to the subject. For instance, Functional Strength, Unbelievable Strength, A Battle in San Fransisco, The Bodybuilding Connection and The Routine, will rivet the reader's focus such that he will finish this article in one reading, and prompt him to want to re-read it and re-re-read it.

I've been extremely impressed over the years as to how many bodybuilders are also highly trained martial artists. In fact, over the years I having personally supervised the training of many martial artists, with many of my phone clients already being rabid Lee fans, and martial artists seeking the most efficient manner of training for strength and speed; which was the goal of Lee's training. Also, I receive more e-mails, letters and phone calls from martial artists than any other type of athlete. This I believe follows from Lee's well known concern with weight training to develop efficiency and strength.

I am extremely proud to say that one of my best friends, for the past 22 years, wrote this article, which is excerpted from one of the 11 books he's written on Bruce Lee. I first met John Little at Eaton's department store in Toronto where Arnold, Franco and I had made an appearance for Weider and the IFBB, in 1979. We hit it off immediately, as John was philosophically oriented, along with having a passionate interest in bodybuilding. After that initial meeting, we met at Lou Hollozi's gym in Toronto in 1980, where I conducted a seminar; and, with that, John and I further cemented our friendship. Subsequently, John made a number of trips to Los Angeles, where he'd usually stay with me in my apartment in West Hollywood. His primary purpose in traveling to southern California was to pursue the subjects of those he wrote books about, including Steve Reeves and Lou Ferrigno.

It was finally, in 1992, that Joe Weider brought John to Los Angeles to write for Flex. This only lasted three years, as John was more interested in writing freely about his passion, namely - philosophy, martial arts, the philosophy of Bruce Lee's, who, too, was a fervent student of philosophy, his personal library packed with philosophy books that extended from the floor to the ceiling and spanned the length of the room. His quest for the truth saw him avidly studying philosophies ranging from that of Krishnamurti's to our most revered, Ayn Rand.

Bruce Lee's life was most interesting as he rose from a starving, poor boy in Hong Kong to the world's most celebrated movie star in Hollywood, having a greater impact on more people than that of Elvis Presley's, James Dean's and Marilyn Monroe's combined!

I trust that you, dear reader, will gain much knowledge from John Little's article, along with the added inspiration that will act to have you approach your own training with greater inspiration and motivation than ever before. Above all else, I ardently desire that you will read John Little's superlative article mostly for the sheer pleasure of it.

Mike Mentzer

"If you're talking about combat -- as it is -- well then, baby you'd better train every part of your body!" -- Bruce Lee (from the video, Bruce Lee: The Lost Interview)

There's an anecdote that has endured some 28 years concerning the texture of the muscles that adorned the physique of the late martial arts pioneer/philosopher, Bruce Lee.

It concerns a lady named Ann Clouse, the wife of Robert Clouse, the man who directed Lee's last film Enter the Dragon for Warner Bros. It seems that Clouse's wife had ventured onto the set of the film and was mesmerized by Lee's incredible physique as he went through his paces choreographing the fight scenes for the film, stripped to the waist under the hot and humid Hong Kong sun. In between takes, Ann approached the young superstar and asked if she could "feel his biceps." "Sure," Lee responded -- it was a request he'd received on numerous occasions -- tensing his arm and inviting her to check it out for herself. "My God!" she exclaimed, drawing her hand back instantly, "It's like feeling warm marble!"

Bruce LeeIt's fascinating that almost three decades later, people are still talking about the body of Bruce Lee -- although it is by no means surprising. The Lee physique, once described by no less an authority on such matters than bodybuilding magnate Joe Weider as "the most defined body I've ever seen!" has attracted (much like the man's martial art and philosophy) a following that not only rivals but exceeds those of Elvis Presley, James Dean and Marilyn Monroe -- combined! Certainly his following exceeds that of any bodybuilder of a similar vintage. And even more fascinating is the fact that almost everyone gets something different out of Bruce Lee -- martial artists revere his physical dexterity, power, speed and the genius he displayed in bringing science to bear on the world of martial arts; moviegoers are impressed with the man's screen presence and animal magnetism, along with the fact that he single-handedly created a new genre of action film thus opening the door to the Stallones, Schwarzeneggers and Jackie Chans who were to follow in his footsteps; philosophers are impressed with Lee's ability to bridge the philosophical chasm separating East and the West and to synthesize the best aspects of both cultures. But there exists another pocket of humanity that sees in Lee something else -- although not entirely unrelated -- the bodybuilders. Bodybuilders, young and old, know from one quick glance at Lee's physique exactly how much labor went into its creation -- and they are, one and all, very impressed.
go to the site to read more under: "articles" at bottom

[mkriii]

Hello everyone. I'm back. Aren't you all happy about that. How are all my SD friends today. Is everyone training hard? I hope so.
Has everyone drank there cool aid this morning?

[Shaolin Wookie]

If by "there cool aid" you mean "that thar Kool-Aid", then no. But I just rushed to the medicine cabinet and made sure to take my daily E. Coli elixir to protect me from the wave of acrimonious bull**** you're going to unleash, like a loquacious little sphincter.

No, but really. How are you doing today?

[Judge Pen]

Hello everyone. I'm back. Aren't you all happy about that. How are all my SD friends today. Is everyone training hard? I hope so.
Has everyone drank there cool aid this morning?

Wasn't this thread dormant for a couple of weeks before you dug it back up? Wanna hop back on the merry-go-round again?

[SIFU RON]

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

well put, I agree 100%

I met Bruce at Ark Wong's school when he first came here from China. You opinion is right on the money.

Many thanks, Ron Shewmaker

[SIFU RON]

Bruce used his natural talent and fighting ability to shadow the real essence of his background or lack there of. People just don't want to hear these contradicitons. BL was talented, no doubt about it, but his foundation which contributed to his speed, power, etc is the "direct" result of his "traditional" CMA training... Bruce, even in his younger years was very arrogant which resulted in his training being incomplete (old time masters would not teach everything to those who were arrogant, self-centered, or not trust worthy, if at all). BL did alot for the martial arts, no doubt and I'm not bashing him, but lets not side step the facts and reality of his philosophy, methodology, concepts, principles, etc. Look closely, anyone who is trained indepth in the CMA and Chinese culture will see exactly where he came from and what he did and didn't do!!!!!! Bruce's concepts have been around for centuries and promoted throughout the many styles of CMA.

For those who still believe that BL was the end all or evolutionist of modern martial arts, remember one thing. No matter what Bruce became or accomplished, he did so from his strict Traditional CMA background. everything else he just simply added to characterize his flare... LOL, for those of you who didn't know, Bruce really understood the value and neccessity of traditional martial art training (drills, fighting, & yes, forms). Bruce always wanted to be the best. By discrediting various aspects of martial art training and people following his word would ensure he stayed on top ;).

I'll stick with what I have. Afterall, the teaching I have received has been around for 1500 to 5000 years, not 20 or so years...

I encourage those to seek training in the area's there interested in. Have fun with what you do. Just remember, when you see the big picture, ther's always a bigger picture on the other side...

Take care
CS

well put, I agree 100%

I met Bruce at Ark Wong's school when he first came here from China. your opinion is right on the money.

Many thanks, Ron Shewmaker

[SIFU RON]

Talk about wearing shoes.

when I started training with Ark Wong back in 1959, I asked him why we trained with our shoes on he, laughed,

and said " can't take em off in a fight ".

Good thread, Thanks,

Sifu Ron

[Judge Pen]

Talk about wearing shoes.

when I started training with Ark Wong back in 1959, I asked him why we trained with our shoes on he, laughed,

and said " can't take em off in a fight ".

Good thread, Thanks,

Sifu Ron

Unless you're on a beach! :p

[ittokaos]

Are you F*ckin kidding me?!? This stupid thread(which lost interest in SD a while ago) has been going on for 520 pages?

The question was whether or not SD is Shaolin Kung fu.

The answer: nope.

Done, and I didn't need 520 page to figure it out.

I will even elaborate.
Shaolin Do is basically Kempo Karate. Kempo is said to have come from Chuan Fa which is the Chniese way of saying Fist Arts. According to what I know it is mainly based on the Five Animal system which is said to have come from Shaolin but no one can really say considering the multiple versions of Five Animals in the world(Hung Gar,Hung Kuen,Bak Mei, CLF, etc...)

Five animals itself is not even regarded as a style by many and they see it as a form and nothing more. Traces of the Five Animals can be seen in just about every style of Kung Fu and is therefore regarded as a "Ghost Style" (there but not there.)

In Conclusion, Shaolin Do= Kempo+Karate. Kempo comes from Chuan Fa, which comes from Five Animals, which comes from Shaolin. Karate comes from southern CMA which are also said to come from Shaolin as well as the Okinawan MA of "Te/Ti"(hand).

Technically, it can all be traced back to Shaolin if you try but Shaolin Kung Fu is consdered to be a kung fu style either created in a (Shaolin)temple or by a Shaolin Monk.

It can also be taught in a Shaolin temple even though it may not have been created there(but there is to much controversy about this).

Shaolin Do doesn't fit any of these descriptions. Therefore, no, it is not a Shaolin Kung Fu.

I really hopes this clears up any confusion about this.

WF

[MasterKiller]

What a completely novel and refreshing contribution! In light of this unique perspective, I suggest we lock this thread and consider the case closed.

[tattooedmonk]

Why didn't anyone come along and enlighten us like this before??:rolleyes:

[arinathos.valin]

If someone locks this thread, where else will I post? :(

[kwaichang]

IttokaosAccording to what I know it is mainly based on the Five Animal system which is said to have come from Shaolin but no one can really say considering the multiple versions of Five Animals in the world(Hung Gar,Hung Kuen,Bak Mei, CLF, etc...)

There is the flaw in your argument you dont know anything. KC

[tattooedmonk]

LMAO !! You are right he does not seem to know anything.

[ittokaos]

You are right. As I do not practice SD I have no problem not knowing too much about it but what I do know is that it is not Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Kung Fu as in "chinese martial art that uses the 4 basic pronciples of Ti,Da, Shuai, Na that either originated in a Shaolin Temple or was created by a Shaolin Monk and still follows the principles of CMA and Shaolin."

It doesn't make your system bad or wrong it's just not Shaolin Kung Fu.

[DPL]

Ittokaos - expletive - the sound a dead horse makes when beaten

[ittokaos]

Ok. I'm done.(i finished a while ago) Can we get this locked?

[tattooedmonk]

You are right. As I do not practice SD I have no problem not knowing too much about it but what I do know is that it is not Shaolin Kung Fu. Shaolin Kung Fu as in "chinese martial art that uses the 4 basic pronciples of Ti,Da, Shuai, Na that either originated in a Shaolin Temple or was created by a Shaolin Monk and still follows the principles of CMA and Shaolin."

It doesn't make your system bad or wrong it's just not Shaolin Kung Fu. Well, let's see, the systems/styles that were developed in, around, or were absorbed into the teachings at Shaolin are found in SD and all 4 aspects of CMA are in SD,so how is it that if you do not know anything about SD nor have you trained in it can you say it does not have these aspects and is not Shaolin Kung Fu??

[Judge Pen]

Ok. I'm done.(i finished a while ago) Can we get this locked?

Why? If people still want to come along and jump on the dead horse merry-go-round shouldn't they have a place to do so? If we lock this thread, I promise you another will come along to replace it eventually. This is not the first SD thread. As Gene seems to merge any other SD thread here, I hope it is the last and all discussions relative to the history or veracity of SD can be contained here.

[Lamassu]

This thread is a living organism all it's own, as JP mentioned, other threads that remotely have anything to do with Shaolin Do gets lumped into this one, and it is only getting bigger and bigger and bigger!!! :D This thread will be, if not already is, the largest thread in the entire kung fu forum (BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!), and there's nothing you can do about it, because even if all the trolls out there decided they will keep their asinine opinions to themselves and swear by pain of castration never to post on this thread in fear of it only growing larger, there are still those of us who are students of Shaolin Do who have questions or topics to talk about with our fellow students and WE aren't going anywhere.

Be grateful Shaolin Do is contained in one thread, we could easily have this topic spread throughout the rest of the forum like a virus and then where will you be? :cool:

[MasterKiller]

we could easily have this topic spread throughout the rest of the forum like a virus and then where will you be? :cool: Back in 2001...

[tattooedmonk]

I love this group!!!

[Judge Pen]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

If anyone really wants to kill this thread, then Kung Fu Fan, with only a single post to his account, could delete this entire thread. Its obvious that KFF is an alias of someone else that wanted to stir things up and watch it grow. So unless KFF fan does something about it, then let's just keep all SD discussion here.

[BM2]

I always thought KFF was really MasterKiller, however the thread was never deleted...;)

[MasterKiller]

I always thought KFF was really MasterKiller, however the thread was never deleted...;)

MK has no aliases. :mad:

[Judge Pen]

MK has no aliases. :mad:

Aside from MasterKiller? Come on, that can't be your real name!

[MasterKiller]

Aside from MasterKiller? Come on, that can't be your real name!

MasterKiller is MK's name. How could it be otherwise?

[Judge Pen]

MasterKiller is MK's name. How could it be otherwise?

If its not an alias then its a split personality!

[BentMonk]

If its not an alias then its a split personality!

If a person with multiple personalities threatens suicide, does this constitute a hostage crisis? :D

[The Xia]

If anyone really wants to kill this thread, then Kung Fu Fan, with only a single post to his account, could delete this entire thread. Its obvious that KFF is an alias of someone else that wanted to stir things up and watch it grow. So unless KFF fan does something about it, then let's just keep all SD discussion here.
I think it would be funnier if Kung Fu Fan wasn't an alias for someone else. That, or it is really an alias for Gene. :D

[tattooedmonk]

I think it would be funnier if Kung Fu Fan wasn't an alias for someone else. That, or it is really an alias for Gene. :DI always thought the samething.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

[BentMonk]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

So what you're saying is that you were playing with your spear in front Asian chicks while your girlfriend wasn't home, got too excited and broke your spear? :D TMI man! :D

[Judge Pen]

Man, I busted my spear yesterday doing Yang Family Spear, when you slap the ground with the butt twice near the middle of the form.:mad:

There was this flock of asian chicks passing by my apartment, and they stopped to give me an audience, and my girlfriend was nowhere around--so it was okay if I showed off a little, I guess.

But I busted my spear, and now I'm spearless.:(

Sucks. But I got a standing ovation. Sure, they were already standing, but it was a standing ovation, nonetheless.

Did you have an old spear? This is why is soak the shaft in oil to treat it and prevent damage as the spear ages.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, it was a relatively young rattan spear. I think it was more the fact I should have choked up a bit if I was going to go slapping it on asphalt like a *******.

(If I was single, I could have gotten da numbas...LOL....well, I could have gotten 'em anyways, but the last thing this man needs is two wimmins jawing his ear off.)

[BlueTravesty]

So what you're saying is that you were playing with your spear in front Asian chicks while your girlfriend wasn't home, got too excited and broke your spear? :D TMI man! :D

*rimshot!*

[BM2]

I'm new to the world of Kung Fu and have a questions? Is the systen known as Shaolin-Do real shaolin kung fu???

MasterKiller's grammar and spelling is better than this post.

[humbleman]

...everything you ever wanted to know about butt-whupping but were afraid to ask because you were afraid you'd get your butt whupped!!!:D

[Judge Pen]

MasterKiller's grammar and spelling is better than this post.

I know. I didn't think that MK was KFF.

[tattooedmonk]

No, it was a relatively young rattan spear. I think it was more the fact I should have choked up a bit if I was going to go slapping it on asphalt like a *******.

(If I was single, I could have gotten da numbas...LOL....well, I could have gotten 'em anyways, but the last thing this man needs is two wimmins jawing his ear off.)Rattan?? I have heard of rattan spears but have not seen them . Where did you get it?? I am surprised that you are not using waxwood. Like JP said, with waxwood, you have to treat it because of wood worms and some climates. Rattan if left out in the weather has a tendency to dry out and become brittle. You should take better care of your weapons.:D

[BM2]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.

[Judge Pen]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.

You're correct and many of the spear techniques that you see used would be difficult to impossible to do with a heavier shaft.

I will say that I had a waxwood shaft that was very heavy and durable. I doubt that it would have snapped easily.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I think the main point is that ancient Chinese spear-wielders weren't slapping their spears on asphalt.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Rattan?? I have heard of rattan spears but have not seen them . Where did you get it?? I am surprised that you are not using waxwood. Like JP said, with waxwood, you have to treat it because of wood worms and some climates. Rattan if left out in the weather has a tendency to dry out and become brittle. You should take better care of your weapons.:D

I'm pretty sure that it was rattan. A teacher said we used them because of their flexibility...i.e. they can bend around the opponent's weapon if he blocks, plus, they generate more...I don't know what it is, but it's whipping power....you just shouldn't pound them on concrete to show off to asian chicks....LOL......

[BM2]

I'm pretty sure that it was rattan. A teacher said we used them because of their flexibility...i.e. they can bend around the opponent's weapon if he blocks, plus, they generate more...I don't know what it is, but it's whipping power....you just shouldn't pound them on concrete to show off to asian chicks....LOL......

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

[Shaolin Wookie]

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

Did he play it off? I mean, did he turn and point at them, mean-muggin', and shout: "I heard what you said about my mother! Say it again, and I won't miss!"

[Judge Pen]

I put one of my antique spear heads onto a waxwood shaft. The weight of the real spear head bent the waxwood and made it so sloppy when I TRIED to use it.
This is a story I have told before.
My brother was performing a spear demo at the county fair. It was held inside one of the barns at the fairgrounds in June or July and it was very hot and humid.
I had to work that day and didn't get to see what happened. He had been practicing with my waxwood spear that had the largest diameter shaft that I have ever seen, not a lot of tapering and a large flair at the stub. It had sat at a MA store because no one wanted it but I liked it. For some reason, this day he was using a normal spear. You may already know what happened in that crowded arena.:D
During the performance where you flip the spear, have the spear end facing towards your neck/face height and send it towards you as you turn away and send it towards an opponet behind you, it went through his sweaty hands into the crowd:eek:
Two guys were leaning on each side of a wooden support post/column. It hit about head high between them with each of them turning to stare at it.
After about 3 seconds, the crowd roared its approval of hitting the post between those guys that had been to his back as he had turned :o

One of these days I'll get to Louisville and meet up with you. I'll bring the spear that I made--It is waxwood, but its fairly thick and its been properly treated. I have a functional spear head on it as well. It's a bit diffcult to wield at times, but it makes for a nice looking spear. The move you described (with the spear point facing toward you) makes me a bit more nervous when you are looking at a point that is sharp enoug to cut.

[BM2]

Did he play it off? I mean, did he turn and point at them, mean-muggin', and shout: "I heard what you said about my mother! Say it again, and I won't miss!"


No, that is what he should have done. Instead he walked over to the post and removed it. He then started all over again.:confused:
LOL, if I had been in the crowd I wouldn't have stuck around for the "Encore":D

[Shaolin Wookie]

Such pathetic humor....I love bad puns.....:D

[tattooedmonk]

I really doubt that the real spears used a wax wood shaft anyway which are flimsy and easily snapped. Would you really bet your life on it holding up in battle?
I had an antique spear head with part of the shaft still in it. It was a dark red, close grain wood. In other words, it was a hardwood. Wax wood is more like the modern wu-shu weapons, more flash.I doubt this completely. They are only flimsy if you get a thin one. You need to find one that is functional for combat. Not too thin not too thick. It should be a little bit heavier to help build strength. These are small trees, they are as strong as nature has made them . If you treat them with oils they will not become brittle or get wood worms.

[humbleman]

Chuck Norris says "the surge is working" and "morale is way up." Next we'll have an iraqi version of "The Green Berets" with John Wayne but starring Chuck. Then 10 years down the road we'll have him in "Who'll Stop the Sand" er... "Rain."

[humbleman]

Because Bruce Lee in the last scene of "Enter The Dragon" obviously travelled forward in time and kicked Chucks' plastic rear for making such stupid remarks:eek:

[humbleman]

...does not echo. Chuck Norris is solely responsible for this phenomenon. When asked why he just stares at you grimly.:D

[humbleman]

...does not use spell check. When he misspells a word, Oxford simply changes the spelling.:D

[humbleman]

...travelled back in time to stop the J.F.K. assasination. He caught Oswalds bullets in his beard. J.F.K.s head exploded from sheer amazement.:D

[humbleman]

sorry, couldn't resist those chuckisms. news flash- kararate teacher in VA. arrested for felony child endangerment for kicking a student 200 times, apparently in some sort of "record breaking" thing within the class. Wonder what kind of an impact this will have

[kwaichang]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

[Lamassu]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

I Couldn't agree with you more.

[humbleman]

the kid had a broken rib and organ damage. my s.d. instructor refused to teach anyone under 18. now i see why. smart man.

[humbleman]

the 11 year old had broken rib and internal injuries. the places most affected will no doubt be the "kid karate" belt mills that specialize in bilking parents.

[BM2]

I doubt this completely. They are only flimsy if you get a thin one. You need to find one that is functional for combat. Not too thin not too thick. It should be a little bit heavier to help build strength. These are small trees, they are as strong as nature has made them . If you treat them with oils they will not become brittle or get wood worms.


Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

[MasterKiller]

Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

MOst of the info I've read that was credible suggests they make the grooves to remove material from the blade to make it lighter w/o compromising integrity.

[SDJerry]

Although not on topic, what was the purpose of the grooves seen that run along the top of a broadsword? I have heard them called blood grooves. Sometimes a double edge sword will have it down the center.

To cut down on suction so it's easier to pull the blade out maybe??? Just throwing that out there :D

[Lamassu]

To cut down on suction so it's easier to pull the blade out maybe??? Just throwing that out there :D

I've also heard the blood pockets are made to slip in air bubbles into your enemies blood stream to insure you kill them. Of course, a gashing stab wound will let plenty of air into the body anyway, so I'm not real sure about that one.

[Mas Judt]

If the kid took more than one the teacher cant be much. who cares. KC

Best thing ever said by an SD guy.

[BM2]

MOst of the info I've read that was credible suggests they make the grooves to remove material from the blade to make it lighter w/o compromising integrity.

Yeah, that's it.
At the Cracker Barrel restaurant near me, they have an old scythe on the wall with two grooves cut into it. I'm sure its for the same reason.
Really I just put the question out there for an example of what we hear isn't always correct. ;) If we totally disagree with somebody's opinion because it differs from what we have been told, you just might miss something.

[Shaolin Wookie]

in some sort of "record breaking" thing within the class. Wonder what kind of an impact this will have

The impact?

His "record breaking" thing just turned into a "record making" thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, that's it.
At the Cracker Barrel restaurant near me, they have an old scythe on the wall with two grooves cut into it. I'm sure its for the same reason.
Really I just put the question out there for an example of what we hear isn't always correct. ;) If we totally disagree with somebody's opinion because it differs from what we have been told, you just might miss something.

But it's universal---in Europe and the East. Typically, in the late English tradition, the blood channel (called a "fuller") was forged into the blade for the purpose of keeping blood from washing all over the blade and possibly over the hilt. It's like a river bank, so when you pull out the blade after impaling someone, the blood has a channel it's supposed to flow through, rather than washing over the side, or pouring over the hilt and comprimising your grip.

That's not a consensus opinion, though. Most steel-smiths say it's there to lighten the weapon and give it a stiffer constitution so it doesn't shatter as easily.

[BM2]

But it's universal---in Europe and the East. Typically, in the late English tradition, the blood channel (called a "fuller") was forged into the blade for the purpose of keeping blood from washing all over the blade and possibly over the hilt. It's like a river bank, so when you pull out the blade after impaling someone, the blood has a channel it's supposed to flow through, rather than washing over the side, or pouring over the hilt and comprimising your grip.

That's not a consensus opinion, though. Most steel-smiths say it's there to lighten the weapon and give it a stiffer constitution so it doesn't shatter as easily.


In my antique weapons, they were cut, not forged. I think you may have meant cast. The difference between cast and forge is just as it sounds, there is a mold with the impression of the shape you want when you cast something. The material is poured into the mold. To forge is to strike.


I was just thinking that the internet is a lot like newspapers. At one time in England, stories of dragons in the countryside were common. When newspapers started making their presence in smaller towns, less stories about dragons occured until there were none.

We all heard of Kwan Dos that weighed X lbs even when experts of different cultures agree that the heaviest weapons weilded by hand would have weighed not much more than 12lbs due to the fatigue of battle. Or that there were speciality built Tai Chi swords. And I really, really dislike giving him a plug on here, Scott Rodell has put to rest many claims of Chinese weapons. He sells antiques and has seen many to have formed a better opinion than anyone on here. The guy whom I have bought my antiques from lives in Illinois and is named Fred. Forgot his last name but a search for him could find him using Fre****s swords or something like that. I do not recommend scott. But you can find him on the web. Just like they said at the first Woodstock concert " Don't take the brown acid, but it's your trip." :D

[MasterKiller]

Right. And a Dao isn't exactly a "stick in you" weapon, it's a "chop off your arm" weapon. I doubt suction is much of a problem when you hack someone up.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I'm by no means an expert in the field, just what I've read and such. But in thinking of the usage of a Western sword, it was thicker and slower, because part of its usage involved battery, such as Western armor was thick and didn't provide much opportunity for "hacking off limbs". Generally, you battered someone, and stabbed him in the *****s of his armor.

MK, what do you know of medieval Chinese armor? I've always been curious to see what it involved. It obviously wasn't the thick-heavy-weighted stuff favored by the larger, thicker Europeans. Was it leather?

[MasterKiller]

MK, what do you know of medieval Chinese armor? I've always been curious to see what it involved. It obviously wasn't the thick-heavy-weighted stuff favored by the larger, thicker Europeans. Was it leather? Leather and weaved cloth layers (aka kevlar) were both used, but I don't know much more than that.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The reason I asked is I imagine the usage of the fuller was the same, even though swords were used quite differently. Besides its use for balance, and perhaps the blood channel, the obvious significance would be to make the weapon lighter/sturdier. The Blood channel idea would make sense in stabbing, not so much as slashing and hacking. So it kind of rules out that as a major factor, although it does still make sense in a small degree.

Eastern and Western swords were used differently (I guess, although their use was to do the same thing, hack, slash, stab), so I assume the common factor would be the lightness/sturdiness of the blade.

[Judge Pen]

Leather and weaved cloth layers (aka kevlar) were both used, but I don't know much more than that.

I read somewhere that woven silk "armour" was strong enough to stop the pentration of an arrow. Don't know if its true or not.

[MasterKiller]

I read somewhere that woven silk "armour" was strong enough to stop the pentration of an arrow. Don't know if its true or not.

IIRC, Mongols wore silk because an arrow wouldn't puncture it, so if you got hit with an arrow, you could pull the silk to remove the arrow w/o causing too much damage.

[kwaichang]

Silk would wind around the arrow as it penetrated and was easier to remove as it did not penetrate as far. I was told by an Iaido practioner that the groove was for weighting purposes. Also blood on the "handle of the sword was OK as it became sticky and helped the grip over time. KC

[kwaichang]

Fuller - Often called the blood groove or gutter, the fuller is a narrow groove that runs most of the length of many swords. Most people believe that it is there to allow the blade to be easily removed by blood escaping through the channel, thereby reducing suction. Contrary to popular belief, the fuller is not a channel for blood to run along. The actual reason for the fuller is to decrease the weight of the blade without diminishing the strength. Use of a fuller allows a bladesmith to use less material to comprise the blade, making it lighter without sacrificing too much structural integrity. This is similar to the use of an I-beam when building a skyscraper.
This is what I found its about material amount used. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Silk would wind around the arrow as it penetrated and was easier to remove as it did not penetrate as far. I was told by an Iaido practioner that the groove was for weighting purposes. Also blood on the "handle of the sword was OK as it became sticky and helped the grip over time. KC

Interesting. I guess it's the equivalent of modern day bullet/clothing issues once you've been shot. Once you've removed the bullet, you have to make sure you get all the clothing fragments out to prevent infection.

[Ng Jit]

This is my experience with these TKD wanna be kung fu schools. They are a black belt factory. I am sorry normally I am rather polite. These guys are nothing more than a big money deal that have no kung fu at all...

In 2001 I opened my school on Magazine Street in New Orleans LA. It was in a modern dance academy. I was pretty much the only show in town back then, besides Sifu Ron who taught Tibetan White Crane in New Orleans east.

My school survived the onslaught, but this guy moved into a Ballet dance school about 5 blocks up from me. He had SO much money and Material behind him from the Shaolin Do school in Texas (where he learned) that he went on this huge advertisement crusade to put my school out of business.

Within a couple of months he had a new building. Now, he has never really had that many students. And I have certainly never known anyone to go to his Branch school of the Shaolin Do business organization.

I do know that it is not authentic Shaolin Kung Fu. They ware Korean TKD gee's for their classes (Not the very old fashioned Chinese uniforms that are simular)... I read one of their brochures and it basically claimed they were from the Wu Dang temple lienage through that old guy that we see sometimes in pictures of who looks like cousin it...

I did however notice that they don't even attempt to use Sil Lum stances... So this is my rant on this Business Organization...

Ng Jit
http://groups.myspace.com/ngjit

[kwaichang]

Ng Jit I am sorry if your school is not doing well. I know the SD guy who teaches there and he is an alright guy why dont you go and introduce yourself. BTW he does not have a power house money train to back him Go say Hi. KC

[bodhi warrior]

I find it hard to believe people cling to the whole gi thing to discredit sd. I remember a certain Hung I Hsiang, who taught internal Kung fu in Taiwan used gi's and a belt system to teach his art. He said he did so to make his art more popular like karate. Does this mean his art isn't tcma? What about JowGa? They use gi's as well. Any comments from the peanut gallery?

[brucereiter]

This is my experience with these TKD wanna be kung fu schools. They are a black belt factory. I am sorry normally I am rather polite. These guys are nothing more than a big money deal that have no kung fu at all...
i do not think anyone is getting rich from shaolin do, some people have made a good living though. what do you mean by big money?
what do you mean by "no kung fu at all" do you mean shaolin do students have not put in time and effort into their training? do you mean they can not fight? i have been told by many people outside of our system that i have "good" kung fu ... blanket statements like that you made


I have certainly never known anyone to go to his Branch school of the Shaolin Do business organization. interesting?


I do know that it is not authentic Shaolin Kung Fu.
what in your opinion is "authentic shaolin kung fu"?
is there a organization that can authenticate what is or is not?


They ware Korean TKD gee's for their classes (Not the very old fashioned Chinese uniforms that are simular)...

i thought they were karate gi's ... lol.
who cares what people where? will choice of clothing make a better martial artist?


I read one of their brochures and it basically claimed they were from the Wu Dang temple lienage through that old guy that we see sometimes in pictures of who looks like cousin it... i think you misread the brochure.


I did however notice that they don't even attempt to use Sil Lum stances...

what is a "sil lum" stance? can you show us some?

[Seppukku]

I think the obvious question is when did the Japanese steal the gi from the Chinese, right?

[mkriii]

No Shaolin Do is not real. It's a mixture of several arts. You can tell this by the uniform they wear and the techniques & weapons they teach. Also by the use of terms. If they say they teach pure Chinese Kung Fu they are lying. They are trying to capatolize on the name Shaolin. For God's sake, they wear a japanese Gi, teach sia and nunchucks and other weapons of non chinese origin, and use Japanes terminology such as dojo and kumite. Does this sound like kung fu to you? Not to me. I have not seen any kung fu school that teach or do any of the things that SD schools do. Also what is even crazier is all the gimmicks that they do to try to rope you out of more money. Once you get to a particular rank you have to buy a patch to wear on your Gi. You also have to take special classes (which cost additional money) to learn a specific thing for your test. For example, you might need a specific form but it is only taught at a seminar that Sin The' is teaching. Of course you have to pay for this seminar if you want to get this form that is REQUIRED for the belt (not sash) you are going for. It's all about money money money. There are other examples I could go on about. Anyways, Merry Christmas to all you SD guy/gals.

[bodhi warrior]

The gi is more durable.
the sai (called a cha) is a chinese weapon.
What other non-chinese weapon is taught?
I've never been required to buy a patch.
The only time I had to pay for a sin the' seminar is if my instructor didn't know the form. Which was never. I only took a seminar if I wanted to.

[mkriii]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

[mkriii]

here is the definition of nunchuck. Note the origin.......

History Although the certain origin of nunchaku is disputed, it is thought to come from China through the Japanese island of Okinawa; and according to the History Channel they were created in their current incarnation for the movies. The Japanese word nunchaku itself comes from the Hokkien (Min Nan) word ng-chiat-kun (兩節棍). When viewed etymologically from its Okinawan roots, nun comes from the word for twin, and chaku from shaku, a unit of measurement. The popular belief is that the nunchaku was originally a short flail used to thresh rice or soybeans (that is, separate the grain from the husk).

Sincerely,
Mark R.

P.S.
Would you like me to continue with breaking it down to you? (telling you the untruths)

[Baqualin]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

One question Mr. Mark...why do you insist on acting like you know all about SD when it's apparent you know nothing about us.:confused:

[Baqualin]

well last time I checked Nunchucks were Japanese and so were the sai. This is the definition of the sai according to Wikapedia......

Sai (釵) is the Ryukyu name for a traditional Okinawan[1] weapon also used in India, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Its basic form is that of a pointed, rod-shaped baton, with two long, unsharpened projections (tsuba) attached to the handle. The very end of the handle is called the knuckle. Sai are constructed in a variety of forms. Traditional sai are round, while some reproductions have adapted an octagonal middle prong. The tsuba are traditionally symmetrical, however, the Manji design developed by Taira Shinken employs oppositely facing tsuba.

It is believed the sai was always a weapon. Although some hypothesize it originated as an agricultural tool used to measure stalks, plow fields, plant rice, or to hold cart wheels in place, the evidence for this is limited. The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa. Early evidence points to an Indonesian origin. In Malay the sai is known as a chabang (also spelled cabang/tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trident. By trade, the chabang spread through the Indonesia and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously. It is also of note that the Greek letter psi, is a ****nym of sai and that the shape of the letter itself closely resembles the shape of the weapon

Thats for starters.

Mark R.

Sounds like a long road to Japan

[Baqualin]

here is the definition of nunchuck. Note the origin.......

History Although the certain origin of nunchaku is disputed, it is thought to come from China

DUH!!!!



P.S.
Would you like me to continue with breaking it down to you? (telling you the untruths)

Sure

jjkfhsdfhsdjklhsdjklghda

[mkriii]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

[Baqualin]

No Shaolin Do is not real.
If it's not real, why does it exist.

It's a mixture of several arts. You can tell this by the uniform they wear and the techniques & weapons they teach. Also by the use of terms. If they say they teach pure Chinese Kung Fu they are lying. They are trying to capatolize on the name Shaolin. For God's sake, they wear a japanese Gi, teach sia and nunchucks and other weapons of non chinese origin, and use Japanes terminology such as dojo and kumite. Does this sound like kung fu to you? Not to me. I have not seen any kung fu school that teach or do any of the things that SD schools do. Also what is even crazier is all the gimmicks that they do to try to rope you out of more money. Once you get to a particular rank you have to buy a patch to wear on your Gi. You also have to take special classes (which cost additional money) to learn a specific thing for your test. For example, you might need a specific form but it is only taught at a seminar that Sin The' is teaching. Of course you have to pay for this seminar if you want to get this form that is REQUIRED for the belt (not sash) you are going for. It's all about money money money. There are other examples I could go on about. Anyways, Merry Christmas to all you SD guy/gals.

I see your preparing the stuffing for your Xmas turkey:D

[Baqualin]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

WOW a couple of patches for a couple of bucks.....a lot of money made here.
The rest of your statement shows once again you know nothing...none of it is true period
BQ

[mkriii]

Yes, I am preparing my stufing for the turkey. Now I just have to go out and find a big fat out of shape turkey to fill with my stuffing. There might be a turkey or two on Gold Rush Rd.. Do you know of any?

[Baqualin]

Yes, I am preparing my stufing for the turkey. Now I just have to go out and find a big fat out of shape turkey to fill with my stuffing. There might be a turkey or two on Gold Rush Rd.. Do you know of any?

Well I'm not fat and definitively not out of shape...just old...so I, probally would give you a nice belly ache.....but I'm sure you could find what your looking for, just come on over and shop around, just be sure and tell everybody who you are.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

I think the obvious question is when did the Japanese steal the gi from the Chinese, right?Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

[MasterKiller]

Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

um. No? The karate gi was developed from the Judo uniform. The Judo uniform was most likely derived by Jigoro Kano from the kimono and other Japanese undergarments.

[tattooedmonk]

um. No? The karate gi was developed from the Judo uniform. The Judo uniform was most likely derived by Jigoro Kano from the kimono and other Japanese undergarments.It is only one of the many possible ways . And where did this Judo uniform come from?? The Kimono?? Where did they get these ideas?? The Monks?? The Chinese??And what is judo?? Shuai Jiao??

[Judge Pen]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a 4th and I've never been required to pay for a special class to advance in rank.

Sai is a Japanese word, but the weapon's origin is Chinese. Nunchucku is a japanese term as well, but there is some indication that it had chinese origins as well. (Anybody hear an echo in here?)

[Judge Pen]

Yes, As anyone can see the GI is just like the cloths the shaolin monks wear without it being orange or blue and having the leg ties ,otherwise it is EXACTLY like the monk garments. I saw a picture of Shi Yang Ming in his orange "GI" once without the legs ties and it looks exactly like it. And considering that the monks supposedly shared the arts with the japanese and okinawans it would stand to reason that they would adopt a uniform that was similar to that of the monks. Does this make sense or not??

I've heard this argument, but I don't buy it personally. There's paintings etc of a "V" neck garment that some monks wore, sure, but that doesn't mean it was the precursor to the "gi". Plus, if the "gi" was originally Chinese in origin, why would wearing it in Indonesia make Ie's school look Japanese instead of Chinese? Seems like a mixed message there.

I think there are more credible arguments for wearing a gi other than the "Chinese connection."

[tattooedmonk]

I've heard this argument, but I don't buy it personally. There's paintings etc of a "V" neck garment that some monks wore, sure, but that doesn't mean it was the precursor to the "gi". Plus, if the "gi" was originally Chinese in origin, why would wearing it in Indonesia make Ie's school look Japanese instead of Chinese? Seems like a mixed message there.

I think there are more credible arguments for wearing a gi other than the "Chinese connection."
Fair enough . I would say that it , GI, became popular in Japan and okinawa and that Master Ie saw this and took it from there. I think the knowledge of it's connection to the Chinese Shaolin Monks garments is only a resent acknowledgement , but this does not take away from the fact that it is most likely Chinese in origin, considering a large part of the Japanese culture came from the Chinese back then.

[lostdragon]

almost 8000 posts. Incredible.

[tattooedmonk]

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm a 4th and I've never been required to pay for a special class to advance in rank.

Sai is a Japanese word, but the weapon's origin is Chinese. Nunchucku is a japanese term as well, but there is some indication that it had chinese origins as well. (Anybody hear an echo in here?)This brings up a good point actually because on the west coast they did this for many years, they had all the conditioning classes at an additional fee and they were required for rank advancement. The classes cost any where from 25$ to 65$ Like the Yi Jin Jing . outdoor conditioning, etc. and this was in addition to the monthly dues .

Not failing to mention that Advanced black belts had to pay an additional charge monthly for their advanced material.

[Baqualin]

This brings up a good point actually because on the west coast they did this for many years, they had all the conditioning classes at an additional fee and they were required for rank advancement. The classes cost any where from 25$ to 65$ Like the Yi Jin Jing . outdoor conditioning, etc. and this was in addition to the monthly dues .

One of the many reasons there's an east & west;)

[Leto]

"Sai"

http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x145/Taiji_changes/?action=view&current=VHG32D.flv

Yang Jwing Ming also mentions learning this weapon as part of his white crane curriculum, in his white crane book.

The author of the "Shantung Black Tiger: shaolin art of northern china" book also mentions the cha/sai (and has a picture drawn), as a common kung fu weapon.

I guess all these guys have mixed in Okinawan kobudo with their kung fu, since there obviously aren't enough Chinese weapons to form a well rounded curriculum.

I have no hard evidence of the nunchaku's evolution in China, however there are several related sectional weapons that we know are Chinese, including the three sectional staff, and the two sectional staff/flail.
I can say from experience that SD does not teach nunchaku the way it is in Okinawan kobudo.
The SD cha/sai form is certainly not Okinawan. Just one look at the stances and footwork used will tell you that, not to mention the actual method of holding and using the weapon. But you wouldn't know that if you never actually learned the SD cha form, or any Okinawan sai forms.

[kwaichang]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

[Baqualin]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

Hey KC,
I'll be there Sat. morning around 9:30 am....I start my class at 10.....come on in.
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

I know some years ago you had to buy patches to put on you gi. The patch of the belt tied in a knot and the patch of the hand open and then you had to buy more patches at advance belts. I know that when you get to like Brown belt (i think) you have to take a speacial class either in Tai Chi or Ba Qua and it costs additional money each month to take this class. If you don't learn this then you can't advance in belt rank. Also there was a seminar that Sin Thev taught last year covering a specific form. I can't remember what it was but you had to have it for a particular belt and the only way you could learn it was by taking this seminar (which of course you had to pay for). What rank are you bodhi warrior?

I'm a 1st black. I've been in and out of formal classes since '82. I've pretty much decided to narrow my practice to black tiger and dragon styles. I just don't need anymore material.

[Judge Pen]

How many times can the same subject be discussed ? on this forum endless.
I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC
The same subject can be discussed on this forum endlessly! That's the beauty of the internet and selective memory. The thing is we discussed the "sai" directly with mrkiii but either he has a horrible memory, or his mind can conceive that he may be incorrect or misinformed on a subject, so he keeps restating the premise to the wind in hopes that the number of times a statement is made will somehow be indicative of its correctness. In the words of the bard, "full of sound and fury but signifying nothing."

[arinathos.valin]

Bodhi,
I'll bite from the peanut gallery...

Regarding Hung I Hsiang and his use of the Japanese/Okinawan gi, the outer trappings were certainly Okinawan, but the core movements that he used were Xingyi, Bagua, and other chinese arts. Shaolin-Do, while it incorporates many chinese forms, have a different 'flavor' to them.

I'm actually one of those people who were bugged by the fact that the gis were used, but it wasn't the only thing that made me question the lineage of SD as it was described to me. There were a number of things that 'added up' so to speak.

[Baqualin]

Bodhi,
I'll bite from the peanut gallery...

Regarding Hung I Hsiang and his use of the Japanese/Okinawan gi, the outer trappings were certainly Okinawan, but the core movements that he used were Xingyi, Bagua, and other chinese arts. Shaolin-Do, while it incorporates many chinese forms, have a different 'flavor' to them.

Depends on who your watching;)

I'm actually one of those people who were bugged by the fact that the gis were used, but it wasn't the only thing that made me question the lineage of SD as it was described to me. There were a number of things that 'added up' so to speak.

scjchgub;vjhgue;jverigked

[arinathos.valin]

BQ, That's probably fair, as I haven't seen EVERYONE in SD. I'd say that in the tournaments I've seen, there have been some practitioners who have come a lot closer to what I'd consider to be a 'chinese' flavor than others.

I haven't forgotten about BQ's gracious offer to visit the Lexington school... (and there is no sarcasm implied at all in that statement). I just haven't been able to make it down that way.

BTW... I was hoping to actually sneak a post in on page 500, but too many of you got there before I did. Since then I've been lurking. Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving and is looking forward to the holidays!

[Baqualin]

BQ, That's probably fair, as I haven't seen EVERYONE in SD. I'd say that in the tournaments I've seen, there have been some practitioners who have come a lot closer to what I'd consider to be a 'chinese' flavor than others.

Those were the dedicated ones who listen and practice everyday

I haven't forgotten about BQ's gracious offer to visit the Lexington school... (and there is no sarcasm implied at all in that statement). I just haven't been able to make it down that way.

I know you haven't.....hope you make it down someday, lunch is on me!!!!

BTW... I was hoping to actually sneak a post in on page 500, but too many of you got there before I did. Since then I've been lurking. Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving and is looking forward to the holidays!

I know I missed it too


I was just poking fun at you.....it's always good to see you on here, Happy Holidays to you!!!!
BQ

[Mas Judt]

You know I'm the first to point out that SD just does not teach all the stuff they claim - just looking at it reveals that clearly, not to mention watching Sin The' move. If you really want to learn the specific systems - taiji, bagua, north mantis, xing yi, whatever - you are better off training with someone from an authentic background and actually knows those methods.

But the gi - who cares. And I am certain that you can find the sai in China - only it is a short sword, not a potato picker (one of the funniest BS stories ever - why waste precious, rare iron on a potato picker?). It is a common short sword design in SEAsia.

[Mas Judt]

I will be in Lexington this weekend MKRiii you can come and stuff me. I am old fat and just over came an injury care to give it a go . Just post on here for a friendly match. KC

KC, you aren't coming on to that poor guy are you?:eek:

[arinathos.valin]

LOL, BQ just upped the reasons for going down to Lexington... I'd do a lot for a free lunch! ;)

And, of course, no offense taken whatsoever!

[kwaichang]

Nah i have offered to match him before but he didnt take the bait, I am just bored in knoxville even having my A$$ kicked would be fun. KC

[Mas Judt]

Understandable.

Most don't realize how fun this stuff is once you throw the ego out the window.

[tattooedmonk]

Nah i have offered to match him before but he didnt take the bait, I am just bored in knoxville even having my A$$ kicked would be fun. KC well for all you guys in Ky. and Tn. I am planning a trip there in february and would love to kick a little @$$ and get mine kicked, alittle.:D:p:eek::cool:

[tattooedmonk]

You know I'm the first to point out that SD just does not teach all the stuff they claim - just looking at it reveals that clearly, not to mention watching Sin The' move. If you really want to learn the specific systems - taiji, bagua, north mantis, xing yi, whatever - you are better off training with someone from an authentic background and actually knows those methods.

But the gi - who cares. And I am