Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

I challenge you all and as the challenger I pick the Moon yeah thats the ticket Ill see you all there. KC

[kungfujunky]

wow

chiballs is some kind of gunfighter from the old west

nice!

hey tm id be your second if it was really necessary although i am in colorado

i just want to watch the fun!

hey kc

i accept! ill meet you there lol

[kwaichang]

Chiballsoffire hey man you study Hung Gar for 8 years and you feel compelled to accept a challenge I have a 2.5 year old you can fight but you have to sign a death waver. and You cant sue me when he kicks your a$$ KC

[BM2]

:DThis thread has gone Jerry Springer again!

[Judge Pen]

:DThis thread has gone Jerry Springer again!

Instead of chanting "JERRY, JERRY" we should all chant "GENE, GENE, GENE, GENE" :p

[Judge Pen]

Let's see, chiballs recently registered, has all of 11 posts, and all his posts have been here in the SD thread. Hmmmm..... Do you think he's a troll just having a bit of fun?

[OTD]

Why do people who supposedly study other systems (ie HunGar,CKF,NLongfist
& Mantis) only want to post on a thread named " Is Shao lin Do For Real??

Don't they have any respect from their own style or styles to inter-act with?

70-80% of the posts are from other people, who blatenly speak out that
they don't want to learn anything from SD yet in fact by posting on this
thread they are the biggest proponent of SD???

Just curious

SD: "Hey TCMA, whaddya say?"
TCMA: "Any new converts today?"
SD: "Nay Nay Nay"
TCMA: "Send in the trolls!!"
OTD

[MasterKiller]

Why do people who supposedly study other systems (ie HunGar,CKF,NLongfist
& Mantis) only want to post on a thread named " Is Shao lin Do For Real??
OTD

Why do you slow down to look at car accidents you were not involved in?

[arinathos.valin]

A slight correction to my post on "Cheng Style" Taiji...

The book I was referring to by Nigel Sutton was "Searching for the Way"... not "Finding the Way".

Don't know if anyone really cares about that, but if someone was searching for the book, the right title might be of help...I thought the book was excellent.

BQ...I still haven't forgotten about the invite. Good to hear things went well at the tourney!

Regarding recent posts...have to admit I didn't find much in the way of a challenge in TM's post. Perhaps it was the way he TYPED it? Let's just cool it on the egos and just learn from each other...

[Baqualin]

Hey JP
Did you get the Yang side of Meteor Fist this time around.
BQ

[mkriii]

Good morning everyone. How are all my SD friends doing? All is good here. Whats new Baqualin? Did I here you went to a tournament? How was it?

[mkriii]

This might come as a shock to some of you but I did some reflecting last night on some things that I have said and I would just like to appolagize for any negative comments I might have said.

[Baqualin]

This might come as a shock to some of you but I did some reflecting last night on some things that I have said and I would just like to appolagize for any negative comments I might have said.

Good morning to you too mkrii....all is good and hope no one has insulted you!!!!....the tourney was just our fall gathering here in Lex. and I was speaking about the demo I did on Baqua Spear.
BQ

[mkriii]

So where do you guys hold your fall tournament? Iwish I had known about it so I could have come and watched it.

[DPL]

I accept your challenge and as the person challenged I am allowed to pick the time and place:

13 October, Saturday at 10:00 am

Lincoln Park, 7th and Wilshire

Bring a second....any more, any less and I walk away.

Taiwan rules (look it up).

Looks like it's time to update the KFM Glossary.

Chiballsofmilk - 'cross hands' is something you offer to do with someone in order to learn, exchange ideas, etc.

Doofus.

Taiwan rules but Cleveland ROCKS!

[mkriii]

My question is this...Is Shaolin Do Karate the same as Shaolin Kung Fu? If it is, then your saying that what you teach has no other arts (japanese, korean, etc...) mixed in with it. What you teach is all Chinese?

[Judge Pen]

Hey JP
Did you get the Yang side of Meteor Fist this time around.
BQ

So far just the first 8 rounds. I'll learn "cannon rocks the leg" from my teachers.

[Judge Pen]

My question is this...Is Shaolin Do Karate the same as Shaolin Kung Fu? If it is, then your saying that what you teach has no other arts (japanese, korean, etc...) mixed in with it. What you teach is all Chinese?

To my understanding its all chinese as filtered through indonesia and the kentucky. I don't know if it was "mixed" with somthing else. It has taken on its own unique "flavor" for various reasons.

[tattooedmonk]

Why do people who supposedly study other systems (ie HunGar,CKF,NLongfist
& Mantis) only want to post on a thread named " Is Shao lin Do For Real??

Don't they have any respect from their own style or styles to inter-act with?

70-80% of the posts are from other people, who blatenly speak out that
they don't want to learn anything from SD yet in fact by posting on this
thread they are the biggest proponent of SD???

Just curious

SD: "Hey TCMA, whaddya say?"
TCMA: "Any new converts today?"
SD: "Nay Nay Nay"
TCMA: "Send in the trolls!!"
OTDHMM very good question. probably because they get tired of getting trashed on by MMA guys. This helps them feel better about themselves and what they do.;):eek::D:cool::p

[sean_stonehart]

HMM very good question. probably because they get tired of getting trashed on by MMA guys. This helps them feel better about themselves and what they do.;):eek::D:cool::p

Ummmm.... wouldn't you fall into that too? Kettle? Black? Much??

[Shaolin Wookie]

My question is this...Is Shaolin Do Karate the same as Shaolin Kung Fu? If it is, then your saying that what you teach has no other arts (japanese, korean, etc...) mixed in with it. What you teach is all Chinese?

#1-Same thing.

#2-It's my personal opinion that it contains influences from Indonesian and Malaysian MA's like Kuntao, Silat, and yes, perhaps even a little karate. But I would say that those influences would be small. Being such as the lineage travels through Chinese Buddhists, I'd see it unlikely that MA's like Silat, which have strong native ties to Islam, would comingle without much ado. In terms of kuntao, I'd assume, that as GGM Ie was teaching Chinese students in Indonesia, his students probably picked up some kuntao trimmings here and there from each other and from friends outside the Chinese community, and some of these developed in the system. It's ultimately ignorant to assume it could remain unchanged. Shaolin in China couldn't even claim to remain unchanged. When we look at how traditional Shaolin schools developed in Vietnam, Korea, and other outlying Asian countries after various migrations of Chinese MA's, we see similar (what we might be tempted to call) "watering-downs" or "differences", but are simply geographical, artistic differences, or differences in interpretation. In terms of karate, the structure of the teachings is presented in the fashion of karate. Take the ippon kumite, for instance. I saw these done in Okinawan karate in the Peachtree-Dunwoody area in a class run by a guy that taught traditional karate in a local gym (very affordable, very good teaching....and as a side note, he and his entire class was learning Hung Gar at the time from a local Chinese sifu.) Our ippon-kumite were very different from theirs. The method of movement and blocking was different. The method of retaliation was different (ultimately the same, since you wind up hitting someone, LOL). But I would say that ours were based more on Chinese principles of fighting (in my varied CMA experiences), which are rather different than JMA principles (which are often more direct and linear). Still, the structure of presentation--A punches, B blocks/moves, is the same structure of retaliation. So ippon-kumite, whether this is one of those "Japanese trimmings" the SD canon purports was used to throw off the govt. LOL:D, or whether it is just some approximation to name the one-step techniques, who knows? Who cares?

#3-Karate is a generic term, even in karate. Shorin-ryu karate is Shaolin Karate, but even then, it's only Shaolin Fujien crane karate. So even that label is inaccurate. Shaolin Do Karate/Kung-fu (depending on who's advertising it) is identifiably kung-fu. Sure, some of our craptastic vids on the net don't necessarily display this, but those on M. Grooms' private channel do. But it would be hard to label the other, craptastic ones, as karate either. I give props to anyone who puts themselves out there on the net, so I'm not gonna diss any of 'em, not even the "Dancing Queen" tiger practitioners.:p

To my understanding its all chinese as filtered through indonesia and the kentucky. I don't know if it was "mixed" with somthing else. It has taken on its own unique "flavor" for various reasons.

Various reasons=(in my observations) precisely this:

Everyone who trained with the brothers The' back in the day say this: they were kind of on the "hardcore" side......LOL, which is not that surprising, seeing how MA's are/were practiced in Indonesia until the 1970's/1980's. Find some kuntao-silat training vids, and you'll see what I mean. Guys having boiling oil poured on their heads and hands in order to test themselves, diving through panes of glass (not safety glass), jumping off of the tops of three story builidings, sometimes rolling out of it, sometimes just impacting, somtimes breaking legs--but all the time friggin' nuts!:p:D As such, their emphasis was on fighting, not on forms. But then, for whatever reason (I have my opnions), forms came into greater focus in the cirriculum. Although, iron bone conditioning (esp. the shins) is still pretty **** "hardcore". Mine are still sore from their first flogging.

Nevertheless, I'm going to assume one facet of the training was always the same: in that, it is/was more about gaining the essence and application of a movement rather than the "pose". What I mean by this is can be easily corroborated by any SD student. When you throw a high block, you throw one a little above the temple, a couple of inches out. For the most part, in CMA, you throw one several inches directly above your head (although most CMA's don't have the correct angular deflection, and thus have poor high-blocks, from an SD mindset of applicability). The The' brothers probably never emphasized the angle or hand position; no school I've encountered does either (not like my old Longfist teacher, who would stop you mid-form, take you back to a "pose", and manually reposition your hand). The important thing in SD was/is you had to be in position to actually deflect something. But if you don't throw a really high high block (like in my Longfist), the form tends to look crappy.

I always tend to stress high blocks, and practice the motions big. I figure the way CMA developed, and taught larger (which seem ineffective) movements, was for the reason that in combat, you're going to be tense, and your motions will become smaller. If you practice exaggerated movements, they'll probably be just right when you get cramped in combat situations. This is the way I train, and it helps infinitely in my sparring.

[kwaichang]

The forms as taught are a blue print. We are taught to perform a technique say a leg sweep by keeping the leg straight 'almost' and driving through , and bringing the foot as high as possible. Just as we are taught to perform other tech with exaggerated movement so as to develop the proper body mechanics and muscle coordination and cond. It is my opinion that some get stuck at this point and consider it the end. Instead I feel they should start to add fluidity and shorten the techniques to generate more power and flow "flavor" . Some dont these are the ones who appear to be doing Kara-te, Japanese style. This makes the form easier to teach and more sharp focus wise. KC:):)

[Shaolin Wookie]

The forms as taught are a blue print. We are taught to perform a technique say a leg sweep by keeping the leg straight 'almost' and driving through , and bringing the foot as high as possible. Just as we are taught to perform other tech with exaggerated movement so as to develop the proper body mechanics and muscle coordination and cond. It is my opinion that some get stuck at this point and consider it the end. Instead I feel they should start to add fluidity and shorten the techniques to generate more power and flow "flavor" . Some dont these are the ones who appear to be doing Kara-te, Japanese style. This makes the form easier to teach and more sharp focus wise. KC:):)

Exactly, KC. I agree with this 100%. But the problem is, sometimes in the transmission (and I know this from experience) certain teachers who do not realize this do not pass on those exaggerations to beginners, and assume that because they, as senior practitioners, can feel the application, power, and flow, and can therefore preserve the essence with their own flavor, that the new guy can do the same thing. And this simply is not the case. It takes that exaggeration, sometimes, to really understand what you're doing. I had several teachers of sifu level pass on those "smaller" motions, which made no sense to me. And then the master of the school would see that, tell me to exaggerate it a little (b/c I assume he can see the struggle/frustration in the movement/attitude), and it seemed like it made all the difference in the world, and lights went off in my head. And later, I would whittle those motions down to more precise and exact ones, and still continue to do this daily.

It's really a question of teaching philosophy/method, more than anything.

#10 sparring technique is a microcosm of this in action. I always see wretched versions of this. Generally, I just try to get people to know the points of action, where the hands go/chamber, etc. But then I pull someone aside who's been doing it longer, yet still doesn't understand it, and again describe the points of action, and then ask them to apply it, and there's this look of sudden enlightenment as they figure out the basics of the motion. And then you explain the reason the feet shift and the knee raises, why the hand doesn't make a huge sweeping rise and huge sweeping chop, and why you want to pull your hands up (to throw the elbow)....and the technique gets remarkably complicated. And when you perform it in the air, after knowing this, and hte motions are much smaller, more precise, more directed, and can be applied without much trouble (honestly, most people are just asking to catch sparring tech #10, and I oblige them).

Sometimes it's a case of not passing on an exaggeration to just get their body in place; and sometimes it's a case of negligence in not teaching them how and why to trim down those movements, once their body becomes accustomed to it without too much thought.

But some people don't take that advice, or don't get it, and they just perform a dead technique, rote, of movement, and nothing else. And I see that attitude a lot, not just in SD. Sometimes I think the approach to teaching is just not there anymore in some MA's. And with the proliferation of schools, more teachers, some with the wrong attitudes, proliferate, and the expansion--although good for you and I--tends to ruin the art. (kind of like TKD, where a good tournament performer thinks he's good enough to teach and sets up a chain school, but doesn't pass on the ART---the art suffers and becomes a bit of a joke). But if you can find a great teacher (like the master of the school I attend, and several of its higher ranking teachers (all throughout ATL, really), you can profit by it. I lucked out by having great, dedicated teachers. Some are great at fighting. Some at certain styles. Some at weapons. There's a wealth of expertises to draw on.

I've cross-trained for a while, and I'm constantly astounded (and curse my stubborn blindness) to see that I've already learned what I'm seeing in another art, only I didn't realize it.

[Judge Pen]

My question is this...Is Shaolin Do Karate the same as Shaolin Kung Fu? If it is, then your saying that what you teach has no other arts (japanese, korean, etc...) mixed in with it. What you teach is all Chinese?

Interestingly, I was cleaning out my garage yesterday and I came across a copy of the manual that accompanied the old KET "Karate Series" back in the 80s that GMS hosted. In that manual, GMS refers to everything as karate including what was being done by "karateka" in China. Now, no one, not even GMS will say today that karate or karateka is the proper term to describe the martial arts in China, but it shows that early on, the term was, to GMS, interchangable. GMS said his style was shaolin karate and that its origns were 100% from China as taught to him by GM Ie.

When I started in 1989, my first teacher was calling the style karate, but on my first "intorductory" lesson he said that the style is really Chinese kung fu, but is called karate because of the way GMS trained in Indonesia. The terms and the gis were part of that tradition that was uniqe to SD. If GM Ie ingrained calling it and acting as if it was "karate" then that's understandable. (This is one of the reasons I'd like to get White Earp's teacher's take on this).

[Shaolin Wookie]

Interestingly, I was cleaning out my garage yesterday and I came across a copy of the manual that accompanied the old KET "Karate Series" back in the 80s that GMS hosted. In that manual, GMS refers to everything as karate including what was being done by "karateka" in China. Now, no one, not even GMS will say today that karate or karateka is the proper term to describe the martial arts in China, but it shows that early on, the term was, to GMS, interchangable. GMS said his style was shaolin karate and that its origns were 100% from China as taught to him by GM Ie.

When I started in 1989, my first teacher was calling the style karate, but on my first "intorductory" lesson he said that the style is really Chinese kung fu, but is called karate because of the way GMS trained in Indonesia. The terms and the gis were part of that tradition that was uniqe to SD. If GM Ie ingrained calling it and acting as if it was "karate" then that's understandable. (This is one of the reasons I'd like to get White Earp's teacher's take on this).

Does this mean I'm a karateka, too? Sweet. I'm ranked in two arts, for the price of one.:D

[kwaichang]

Kind of shoots holes in the semantics ? spelling . of it all doesnt it ?? I mean you can call it any thing but it is still Chinese TMA. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

When I started in 1989, my first teacher was calling the style karate, but on my first "intorductory" lesson he said that the style is really Chinese kung fu, but is called karate because of the way GMS trained in Indonesia. The terms and the gis were part of that tradition that was uniqe to SD. If GM Ie ingrained calling it and acting as if it was "karate" then that's understandable. (This is one of the reasons I'd like to get White Earp's teacher's take on this).

I still don't understand why anyone would want to call it Shaolin-Do. He had a perfectly fine name with Chung Yen Shaolin, which was the name of the original school in Indonesia. That, more than anything, was an indicator of its origin and lineage.

I suppose since GM Sin was perhaps adding material and teaching in a new environment, he picked something that represented what he wanted to teach, how he would teach it, how he would preserve it, or maybe he just picked something marketable. Or maybe he thought it would be dishonorable or impolite to name his school Chung Yen Shaolin when the original school was still up and running back home. Anyone know, or have better guesses?

Maybe it was a slogan or something for the original school? Or what it represented?

"The Shaolin Way".....Chinese immigrants in culturally hostile Indonesia......perhaps it represented an idea for GM Sin?

[mkriii]

So if other styles are mixed in Shoalin Do (styles from Indonesia & Malyasia) then Shaolin Do is not pure Shaolin Kung Fu as it was taught at the Shaolin Temple, correct? I assume this is correct due to the sai and nunchucks being taught in Shaolin Do and other foriegn techniques/weapons that are not common in Kung Fu. With that being said is it kung fu or another hybrid style that has arrisen by combining a few different styles together and calling it something different? Hence the word "Do" at the end of Shaolin.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So if other styles are mixed in Shoalin Do (styles from Indonesia & Malyasia) then Shaolin Do is not pure Shaolin Kung Fu as it was taught at the Shaolin Temple, correct? I assume this is correct due to the sai and nunchucks being taught in Shaolin Do and other foriegn techniques/weapons that are not common in Kung Fu. With that being said is it kung fu or another hybrid style that has arrisen by combining a few different styles together and calling it something different? Hence the word "Do" at the end of Shaolin.

The Cha (sai) isn't common, but it has Shaolin history. As for the Shuang Jie Gun, or Da Pang Long Gun, some say it came to Okinawa from China. China does have the two-section staff/flail and the three-section staff. I find it hard to believe that someone who invented the three section staff wouldn't have pondered one day......"hey, I bet this would work with two sections, too!":p

After all, you have to go through two in order to get to three. Unless, of course, you're Niels Bohr or a complete friggin' retard.

[MasterKiller]

The Cha (sai) isn't common, but it has Shaolin history.

Source ?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Source ?

Pictures of Shaolin weapons racks, with pairs of sais on them. It's not bonafide, but nothing is short of a time traveling Delorian with access to a place where we don't need roads to speak with actual monks of the past. Plus, numerous styles have sai forms. Again, not bonafide. But seriously......is it that hard to believe that Chinese kung-fu, with its untold quantities of weapons, some abstract and exotic, included something as basic as a sword-breaker or a sai?

[MasterKiller]

Pictures of Shaolin weapons racks, with pairs of sais on them. It's not bonafide, but nothing is short of a time traveling Delorian with access to a place where we don't need roads to speak with actual monks of the past.

Where are these pictures?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I have a book at home with one (non-SD). Don't know which one. Then there's a photo a fellow student took when he was visiting the temple (I doubt he smuggled them conspiracy-theory-style).

[Judge Pen]

So if other styles are mixed in Shoalin Do (styles from Indonesia & Malyasia) then Shaolin Do is not pure Shaolin Kung Fu as it was taught at the Shaolin Temple, correct? I assume this is correct due to the sai and nunchucks being taught in Shaolin Do and other foriegn techniques/weapons that are not common in Kung Fu. With that being said is it kung fu or another hybrid style that has arrisen by combining a few different styles together and calling it something different? Hence the word "Do" at the end of Shaolin.

Sai, aka iron ruler, were a weapon used in Southern China. I haven't seen any real evidence for the nunchucku, but with all the exotic weapons under the kung fu umbrella, then its logical that a weapon as simple as the nunchuku would have been used in china as well.

Many southern practitioners have noted this. Here is one example:

My style, Southern Mantis, is known for it's 'tid jek' (aka Iron Ruler) which is almost identical to a japanese 'sai'.

Does any other chinese style use this weapon? Maybe is it a staple of hakka styles?

[Judge Pen]

Where are these pictures?

There was a picture from the excavation of a temple in fujian that had "sai". It was posted either by bruce (sholindoiscool) or sean stonehart. I believe it was actually published in KFM.

[MasterKiller]

I want to see the pic of it hanging on a weapon rack.

[Judge Pen]

I want to see the pic of it hanging on a weapon rack.

Looking for it. Meanwhile, here's another citation by our own Salvatore Canzonieri referencing the use of "sai" in Southern China.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle28.htm

[Judge Pen]

http://www.mts.net/~sillum/South%20Shaolin%20Temple1.htm

Here is an article of the excavation with the remains of what clearly is a "sai" (see picture at bottom).

[The Willow Sword]

Sai were origianlly japanese farming implements. A rice planter if i am not mistaken. they were useful for peasants to defend themselves against swords and whatnot. now the origin of this rice planter turned weapon may have its origins in china but the japanese used it extensively.

Peace,TWS


P.S. i thought it was STUPID for the chinese to build a temple right on the excavation site. did they excavate all that could be? or did they just dig down to a level and then stop after they got some rusty farm tools and weapons? At any rate i still think it was stupid to do that. Build the temple in another location adjacent or something but not on top of an excavation site.

[Judge Pen]

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_westernstaff1.htm

See Video #516

"Guo Hui-Xia performs Shuang-Jie Lian-Jia Gun.
This version of the double segmented staff (nunchaku) is true northern style with huge movements and arms-wise actions. The sticks have flags and long chains and the overall set qualifies as more showy than the other double nunchaku in the Western Staff series. The woman performing is quite expert at the actions but overall the movements are accurate but more performance oriented. Flashing flags and whirling sticks."

Also, check out this dialouge: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t4666.html

[Judge Pen]

Here's what wing lam has to say about chinese sai (with video):

http://www.wle.com/products/VHG32D.html

[B-Rad]

I think you also have to take with a grain of salt some Chinese "nunchuck" forms. While the two section staff certainly existed, there's also quite a few who adopted nunchucks inspired by the movies (particularly Bruce Lee). And yes, it's not allways Japanese stylists "stealing" material from kungfu... sometimes it DOES work the other way ;)

[Judge Pen]

Here was the earlier topic discussed here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25439

[Shaolin Wookie]

and in reference to the japan questions a few post back why are look at the weapons rack and figure out the weapon many have used on this thread to say sd in japanese karate, what is a sai doing at the shaolin temple :-)http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg

There it is.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I wonder if there are any guns at the Shaolin temple (no, I don't mean staves)?

What caliber gun do you think Shaolin sponsors?

I'm thinking something flashy, maybe nickel plated, with a flag on it, of course.

[MasterKiller]

I wonder if there are any guns at the Shaolin temple (no, I don't mean staves)? Didn't you get your tickets?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Didn't you get your tickets?

What? To this?

[MasterKiller]

What? To this?

Steal my thunder...:mad:

[bodhi warrior]

has anyone compared sd's mantis with other styles of mantis? If so how does sd's mantis match up, and what style does it most closely resemble?

[Shaolin Wookie]

has anyone compared sd's mantis with other styles of mantis? If so how does sd's mantis match up, and what style does it most closely resemble?

White Monkey STP and other White Monkey Mantis ones are pretty comparable as well.

Don't know many others. But the Master of the school I go to conducted 4 mantis seminars this summer, and taught mantis just like most other schools, as far as applications go. I think it was Mantis 7/8 hands drills, etc. Very cool 2 person drills, practicing elbows and defenses, hip strikes, etc.

More info than I can process......

[The Willow Sword]

The mantis sets there are supposed to be of 7 star origin or they claim that it IS seven star but since i was a mantis guy before SD and comparing and since then, the mantis at sd is pretty terrible and it is choppy and karate like(have done it and felt like i was doing karate or a uhhh hybridized version). absolutely NOTHING like Traditional Mantis. again youtube is going to show you some pretty good mantis stuff but SD doesnt have any you tube mantis being demo'd.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSTyL333hRk


here is some old footage. pretty cool considering, some mantis in there at the beginning and other stuff.

Peace,TWS

[Mas Judt]

OMG... love those clips. Something about old dudes demonstrating in a suit...


For the record, the rice planter/potato digger story about a Sai is apocryphal. It is a common short truncheon/sword design found throughout SouthEast Asia. Favored by pirates for some reason.

[Shaolin Wookie]

OMG... love those clips. Something about old dudes demonstrating in a suit...


For the record, the rice planter/potato digger story about a Sai is apocryphal. It is a common short truncheon/sword design found throughout SouthEast Asia. Favored by pirates for some reason.

No. Not for some reason. It's favored by pirates in order to point the way to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. They are his chosen people, and the sai was their ancient spaghetti-twirling fork.

Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?

[Mas Judt]

You have to be careful when using the term 'kuntao' as it has many meanings:

Prior to Independence, it meant 'martial arts'

After Independence and the establishment of 'bahasa indonesia' as the official language, Dutch and Chinese terms were forbidden, and the term 'Silat' became the generic term for martial arts. In other words you have 'Indonesian Silat', Chinese Silat (CMA), Japanese Silat (JMA) etc...

KunTao can mean:

Modern Chinese martial arts
Chinese martial arts that have been practiced for centuries in the Nusantra
Hybrid Chinese/Indo arts
Syncretic arts with a Chinese base integrating karate/jujitsu/silat whatever

For instance, I WOULD call SD 'kuntao' but it is not the same thing I refer to as Kuntao in my practice. And it does not change the fact that SD does not demonstrate any actual understanding of many of the things they teach.

[Shaolin Wookie]

For instance, I WOULD call SD 'kuntao' but it is not the same thing I refer to as Kuntao in my practice. And it does not change the fact that SD does not demonstrate any actual understanding of many of the things they teach.

Which branch did you study at? The Lexington school?

[sean_stonehart]

has anyone compared sd's mantis with other styles of mantis? If so how does sd's mantis match up, and what style does it most closely resemble?

Go watch the famed Denver video & then go Google Brendan Lai, Shr Zheng Zhong, Sun De Yao, etc... and let us know what you think...

[Shaolin Wookie]

Go watch the famed Denver video & then go Google Brendan Lai, Shr Zheng Zhong, Sun De Yao, etc... and let us know what you think...

Yes...yes...yes....let's go find some guy in Denver who does this for fun, and then let's go find one of the most renowned masters in China and the US who's trained since he was a toddler, and put them side-by-side.


Or, let's go get some white high school point guard who's about 5'6", and put him up against Kobe Bryant or Amare Stoudemire. Or let's take the overweight linebacker on the same high school's football team, and throw him into the defensive line against a Pro Bowl team.


Yes....yes....yes....I see it now. You're RIGHT!!!!!:D:rolleyes:

[sean_stonehart]

Yes...yes...yes....let's go find some guy in Denver who does this for fun, and then let's go find one of the most renowned masters in China and the US who's trained since he was a toddler, and put them side-by-side.


Well since you want to be ****ty about it, there's footage from the 60's/70's of Brendan Lai's students doing a two man set. Or there's the video of ST where he's doing a piece of the SD "Tang Lang Chien"... doesn't that fit your description?


Or, let's go get some white high school point guard who's about 5'6", and put him up against Kobe Bryant or Amare Stoudemire.

They did. He was a little taller & has more melanin in his skin but his name is Lebron.

At 5'8" Spudd Webb spanked lots of tall NBA ass in his day too...


Or let's take the overweight linebacker on the same high school's football team, and throw him into the defensive line against a Pro Bowl team.

Now that's not fun since the highschool kid hasn't had a chance to be on roids as long as the other guys....



Yes....yes....yes....I see it now. You're RIGHT!!!!!:D:rolleyes:

Nope far from it...

[The Willow Sword]

Wookie? Why dont you post a vid of yourself doing some SD mantis. Then we will counter post to the level at which you are at in SD,as best we can,to some traditional mantis players who are at your level and then we can compare. The point that Sean is making here are the comparisons to movement and authenticity(yet again another debate here that goes round and round).

TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well since you want to be ****ty about it,

I'm on hour 27 of 28 straight hours of work on a shift at my weekend job/shift at weekday job/ shift at weekend job (state holiday).......back-to-back-to-back. Of course I'm going to be......snotty about it. LOL.....:D I'm trying to stay awake.



They did. He was a little taller & has more melanin in his skin but his name is Lebron.
.


What are you talking about? Lebron was born a full grown man, goatee and all. He didn't get birthed. He jumped out of his mother's vagina, windmilled, and slammed the placenta onto the light over the examination table, then got a shoe contract, and joined the NBA, all in his first month. He was originally a twin, but he ate his brother, just for the protein.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie? Why dont you post a vid of yourself doing some SD mantis. Then we will counter post to the level at which you are at in SD,as best we can,to some traditional mantis players who are at your level and then we can compare. The point that Sean is making here are the comparisons to movement and authenticity(yet again another debate here that goes round and round).

TWS

I tried. I've got an 8mm tape, and I managed to get it to DVD-R at the DVD recorder at work, but couldn't convert it further without investing in equipment, so I just sent it to my family to enjoy. I planned getting it on Youtube so my entire fam could see it, but don't have the technology for it, and dropping a couple hundred bucks on video cards and **** for 1 time use just isn't smart.

[MasterKiller]

I tried. I've got an 8mm tape, and I managed to get it to DVD-R at the DVD recorder at work, but couldn't convert it further without investing in equipment, so I just sent it to my family to enjoy. I planned getting it on Youtube so my entire fam could see it, but don't have the technology for it.

Just in case you are interested...

1. Plug the 8mm camera into your computer with a firewire cable (probably how you got it to the DVD burner, yes?).
2. Open Windows Movie Maker.
3. Record the clip onto your harddrive.
4. Save as MPEG.
5. Upload to Youtube.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I thought you had to have some kind of video adapter card in your computer, no? I used a DVD Recorder hooked to a TV, not a computer. So it was more like a VCR.

The cable I had was just a simple video/mono audio cable, two prongs for the recorder, two for the camcorder.

I've got a ****ty computer at home. No access to a better one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie? Why dont you post a vid of yourself doing some SD mantis. Then we will counter post to the level at which you are at in SD,as best we can,to some traditional mantis players who are at your level and then we can compare. The point that Sean is making here are the comparisons to movement and authenticity(yet again another debate here that goes round and round).

TWS

You and Sean know some, right?

Got access to a cam?

[MasterKiller]

I thought you had to have some kind of video adapter card in your computer, no? I used a DVD Recorder hooked to a TV, not a computer. So it was more like a VCR.

The cable I had was just a simple video/mono audio cable, two prongs for the recorder, two for the camcorder.

I've got a ****ty computer at home. No access to a better one.

You don't have to have a video card capture card if your camera and computer have firewire ports or USB ports.

Your stuff sounds too old.

[sean_stonehart]

You and Sean know some, right?

Got access to a cam?


Yes I do.

No I don't.

At this point though, the CLF would override any PM body mechanics so it'd look like crap.

[Shaolin Wookie]

You don't have to have a video card capture card if your camera and computer have firewire ports or USB ports.

Your stuff sounds too old.

Not mine, borrowed from girlfriend's dad.:o I should've invested in decent camcorders, rather than throwin' my loot away on grad school.

[The Willow Sword]

i HAD video capabilities on my sh!tty little digi cam but it went the way of the dodo bird and i am out of pocket. The form that i would do on cam would be the bung bo form i learned years ago. NOT the SD version but the version from my Traditional Teacher. sooner or later i will get something on vid. but for now i will just post vids of other peoples stuff to discredit your stuff wookie;):p:D TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

i HAD video capabilities on my sh!tty little digi cam but it went the way of the dodo bird and i am out of pocket. The form that i would do on cam would be the bung bo form i learned years ago. NOT the SD version but the version from my Traditional Teacher. sooner or later i will get something on vid. but for now i will just post vids of other peoples stuff to discredit your stuff wookie;):p:D TWS

If you can't tell, I'm not a sensitive guy. I've got some sweet capoeira footage....well, not that sweet, but pretty sweet for about 6 months of study, and my crane, staff work, and China Hands look pretty good for my level. Can't say my mantis is anything to brag about (not that I have much....though I'm getting the hang of White Monkey STP), but ****, I'd put it out there anyways.....LOL.....

I'm trying to see if my friend can do what I'm looking to do. Primarily, I'm looking to post for my family, but if inquiring minds want to peep, **** 'em....LOL......:D

I was just jokin' about you TWS and Sean........playing Devi'ls Advocate....

[MasterKiller]

This is 2007. Everyone here knows someone with a decent camera. It is not rocket science.

[sean_stonehart]

I was just jokin' about you TWS and Sean........playing Devi'ls Advocate....

Huh??

Anyway I'm here in town if you want to play hands any. I can still pull some PM techniques off, but they're ugly for PM with CLF driving them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That's just it, I only know other college/grad school students, and they're all broke.

I figured I do it if I could when it was convenient. It's really not, so I'm not going to fret it. But I'll see if I can find a "backdoor" for converting the DVD-R into an MPEG......anyone know of some free Ripping software....legal of course.....but the "Free" part of that statement is really more important than the "legal" part, if you catch my drift.;) I figured it'd be EZ, b/c people are always ripping movies nowadays, or putting them on hard drives.

I have a DVD, now I need MPEG.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Huh??

Anyway I'm here in town if you want to play hands any. I can still pull some PM techniques off, but they're ugly for PM with CLF driving them.

To be honest with you, I was about to visit you guys a while back, but went off to capoeira instead, b/c of the greater interest. My schedule's crazy w/ 2 jobs, grad school, a girlfriend, and SD.......but when I get the chance and fancy hits me, I might still ask you for an intro, or something.....LOL.....not that I'm looking to switch schools. But I love getting other perspectives on MA.

And I wouldn't ask for your SD Mantis expertise when I have a school full of dude's doing it, if you catch my drift.

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is 2007. Everyone here knows someone with a decent camera. It is not rocket science.

You gotta know how to rip a home dVD, right? Hopefully?

[MasterKiller]

You gotta know how to rip a home dVD, right? Hopefully?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/389926/convert_vob_dvd_to_mpeg_files_no_recoding/

[Citong Shifu]

Here's what wing lam has to say about chinese sai (with video):

http://www.wle.com/products/VHG32D.html

Whats funny about wing lams sai form is that it looks almost exactly like his hung gar double butterfly form :confused:. I think someone's full of sh#t, lol...

[sean_stonehart]

To be honest with you, I was about to visit you guys a while back, but went off to capoeira instead, b/c of the greater interest. My schedule's crazy w/ 2 jobs, grad school, a girlfriend, and SD.......but when I get the chance and fancy hits me, I might still ask you for an intro, or something.....LOL.....not that I'm looking to switch schools. But I love getting other perspectives on MA.

And I wouldn't ask for your SD Mantis expertise when I have a school full of dude's doing it, if you catch my drift.

Oh... and I wasn't at anytime talking SD Mantis... ;)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Oh... and I wasn't at anytime talking SD Mantis... ;)

You sly dog.......

[naja]

has anyone compared sd's mantis with other styles of mantis? If so how does sd's mantis match up, and what style does it most closely resemble?

I would love to see this myself. I recently started SD (only school in my area, beside TKD) and I'm very interested in their mantis.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hello, my fellow SD'ers......


This look familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRCd5PNB2zY

[Judge Pen]

Hello, my fellow SD'ers......


This look familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRCd5PNB2zY

The dude's pretty good. I can see some similar moves and techniques from our short form and from the 1st brown form "connecting fist".

[sean_stonehart]

Jeet Kuen...

Wookie... you can see that one in your area @ the Eagle Claw school.

It's a pretty basic non-descript long fist set.

[kwaichang]

I taught the SD Mantis I trained in Tang Lang 10 years prior to SD they are similar they are not Karate like they are not mechanical when done right. Some dont. As far as the sai it is chinese in origin and started as a 2 point spear I think in japan it is called a Jitte not sure. but the Chinese would tie it to a stick or pole arm later it was used as a rice straw pitch fork in Okinawa and prob the same in China. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

LOL......I can't get my computer to read that DVD I made....friggin' piece of crap.....so much for videos......I'm not messing with this crap anymore....LOL.....:D

I'll leave it to the richer bloods.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The dude's pretty good. I can see some similar moves and techniques from our short form and from the 1st brown form "connecting fist".


The way I heard it, here in ATL they got a Chinese speaking student to translate the chinese characters of our forms, rather than just the pinyin stuff we see spread across SD websites. Jie Quan is the name we have for our 2nd China Hand posted on our boards and websites.

I see lots of similarities between this "Jeet Kuen" as Sean calls it, and both the china hands. The arm circling really is only at the beginning and ends of the forms, but it's spread throughout this guy's form. But there's always that back bird beak and front side-hand, lots of sweeps, all of those punch/kick combos, the spinning kicks.....

Although, I found a clip of Lian Wu Zhang online, but it had fewer trademarks in common with ours. Seems like ours has a dash of theirs, and a healthy portion of techniques more in common with Jie Quan.

[brucereiter]

Source ?

this photo was taken at the "new" fukien shaolin temple which was recently "rebuilt". this photo does not prove anything about what a shaolin monk may or may not have done many years ago but it does make you ask what "japanese" weapons are being stored on this weapon rack at a shaolin temple?

GuanZhou Temple - weapon rack photo – sai and tonfa

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/WeaponRackcloseup.jpg

[sean_stonehart]

The way I heard it, here in ATL they got a Chinese speaking student to translate the chinese characters of our forms, rather than just the pinyin stuff we see spread across SD websites. Jie Quan is the name we have for our 2nd China Hand posted on our boards and websites.

Say Thank you... I had help, but the yoemen's amount of work was me.

[bodhi warrior]

The Denver clip is some of the worst preying mantis I've seen. To be honest though,I seen another guy at the gathering in lexington who was a third black who was just as bad. It's all about practice and effort. But these two were leaving some moves out and just flailing their arms around. I was just wondering about whether or not some of postures were similar. Not if the performances were similar.

[kwaichang]

This has been talked about before, however I viewed one of the Tang Lang clips Bong Bu Chien on the U tube through the Mantis part of the forum. I then did the ame form for my wife. She said wow they are very similar some of the moves are different but real close. She could actually tell I was doing the same form even w/o frog buttons. I think it is the practitioner if you are doing tiger you cant be a kitten if you are doing Mantis you cant be a tiger, be what you are doing. KC:)

[sean_stonehart]

I think it is the practitioner if you are doing tiger you cant be a kitten if you are doing Mantis you cant be a tiger, be what you are doing. KC:)

Do you realize the irony of what you just said??

This is one of the main points for this whole thread.

[sean_stonehart]

The Denver clip is some of the worst preying mantis I've seen. To be honest though,I seen another guy at the gathering in lexington who was a third black who was just as bad. It's all about practice and effort. But these two were leaving some moves out and just flailing their arms around. I was just wondering about whether or not some of postures were similar. Not if the performances were similar.

That & there are components missing from SD Mantis that when you really watch what a PM player (or any other MA that SD has laid onto that can be found elsewhere) is doing with the body, energy, expression, etc... you'll find SD normally comes up lacking on it.

[The Willow Sword]

Originally Quoted By KC

I trained in Tang Lang 10 years prior to SD


Remind us again of WHERE you studied at? Teacher? School? where? What Branch of Tang lang? Plumblossom? Seven Star? Yin/Yang? Seems like 10 years of Tang lang would have put it in your head that what you are doing now and what you have taught at SD are not the same and do not coincide with the principles of Mantis AT ALL. I have enough training in Mantis to know that for a FACT. Come on KC:rolleyes:. Monkey Steals the Peach SD version? choppy and linear, White Monkey comes out the cave? Linear and even more choppy. Tang Lang Tsu Ju? an embarrassment in my opinion. Or the SD version Of bung bo to which i took that seminar and then Left that Seminar because of 1. frustration and 2. the Bung bo i learned looked and felt NOTHING like what was being taught at that seminar.
Just clarify with us the Tang lang experience you have KC?

Peace,TWS

[arinathos.valin]

10 pages to go...

[kwaichang]

I admit the body dynamics of the Mantis I learned "7 Star" was different I have no prob with that , I have also seen 4-6 Bong Bu Chien Mantis forms on the U tube they are all different and have different emphasis. As does SD Mantis. MA are all different dependent upon many factors. You guys are unable to prove or disprove anything you are just being petty. WS as far as your mantis is concerned I never saw any evidence of your training in Mantis showing through in SD. Fighting or otherwise. Sorry if I offend. KC

[The Willow Sword]

WS as far as your mantis is concerned I never saw any evidence of your training in Mantis showing through in SD. Fighting or otherwise. Sorry if I offend. KC

Actually YES you have, in point of fact, when i was taking one of my brown belt tests,back in the day, You were telling me afterwards about how my cranes looked like mantis(at the time i stiall had not gotten the mantis out of my head yet and so my forms had that mantis feel to them). i remember you saying to me that the cup of tea that you and the other judges were wanted to be served was the tea they asked for and not the tea they got(something to the effect of make your crane style look like crane etc etc.)

oh and i never showed my mantis forms i learned prior to Sd because i felt it innapropriate to do so since i was now in a different school. As to my Mantis fighting, we rarely ever sparred and when we did it was always a tussle that went to the ground with you sitting on me. You still have not answered all the queries about WHERE and WHO you trained 10 years with.
ok so you did 7*. Great, with whom?

Peace,TWS

[kwaichang]

I recall sparring you one time only and it did not go to the ground. No Matter. I do not think you will know my teacher AS IT WAS BEFORE YOU WERE BORN I THINK. If your mantis was so ingrained I would have thought it would show in every thing all I recall is you trying to fight with your hands in Mantis Claw but that was your thing no matter. You really should get over all this. Walk On Walk On KC:)

[Leto]

Some of the SD forms come in sets, and it is said they are meant to really be one form. Some of the forms are extremely short, and it would make sense.
The difficult part sometimes is in transitioning from where the ending bow would normally be into the first move of the next form. Has anyone ever tried doing this, or practice this way regularly?

What forms comprise sets that could or should be practiced as one? White cranes, birds, black tigers, hua fist...any others?

[kwaichang]

If you think the Huas are all supposed to be done as one then you are more of a Man than I am they kick a$$ 1 st road alone does this much less all 5 KC

[The Willow Sword]

KC i am just asking you some simple questions about your mantis background. You make a claim of 10 years experience and you will not tell me or the forum here who you studied under for ten years. Uhhh and you and i are not too far off in age KC so i dont think you were training mantis in the early to late 60's, unless you were a prodigy pre-infant,LOL!!! i was born in 71'.

No what i think is going on here with your dancing around the subject is that ONE, i have a way better memory than you when it comes to my time at SD and the experiences i had there, be it with you or anyone else. and TWO,it looks suspiciously like uhhh cougcoughcoughbullsh!tcoughcough your claims on what you have studied before SD. i dont doubt the japanese stuff you claim but the Mantis i am questioning whole heartedly here. As for me getting over things and walking on, i have gotten over things and if you will re read a post i made earlier in the week i said i wasnt going to b!tch about things anymore, what i am doing now is having a discussion and debate and i think that i have been doing well, considering. YOU are dancing around my question as to your Mantis background.
Sure it is your perrogative to not answer,HOWEVER, making a claim of Ten Year Study of 7 star Mantis and not backing it with ANY info as to where and WHO you Studied with, Well... Am i the only one here who smells BS?

Peace,TWS

[kwaichang]

My mistake about your age. I started in 1971 training private and semi private maybe 2-4 guys in Tang Lang and Hung Gar for ten years with the same guy he was from San Jose California and he trained with a man simply known as Chief. So you were 10when I stopped training with him. Still quite young. The last time I heard from him was in 1992 he had had a heart attack at that time. BTW I only listed my time with him but you are attempting to discredit me because of my earlier point about the 5 Bung Bu Chien form and how they are all performed differently although the same form but because SD Bung Bu Chien is from SD it is wrong although the moves are all quite similar but the emphasis is different. I even agreed with you that The Body mechanics etc are different in SD but that wasnt enough. You have a bone to pick but you dont want to pick it with me . And my memory for important things is quite good I guess this means very little to me. KC

[tattooedmonk]

I have been going through my tapes of Master Sin doing various forms and I am still amazed at how well he uses proper body mechanics . From stances to shifting weight to the end of a technique. I do not care how other people see it. He utilizes all the essential aspects of proper training and movement. I know what some people think of as traditional and /or real, but to be honest, he is doing it more correctly than most people I have seen. Forget about what you think and believe to be right, if you do not understand physiology, kinetics, structural alignment,body mechanics, etc., then it does not matter . Master Sin surely does.

[The Willow Sword]

You have a bone to pick but you dont want to pick it with me .

gosh i am really shakin like a leaf. Veiled threats dont become you KC.

Am actually not picking a bone with you, just expressing my opinions of the Sd mantis material which i feel is NOT indicitive of what true and traditional mantis is.

Mantis is what my former teacher taught me primarily. certainly i havent trained as long as YOU have your "ten" years with cherokee cheif:rolleyes: or whomever to my measley 3 years with a student of Ng family kung fu. (see that is traceable and verified as well). hehe well maybe i am picking at ya a little bit;):p


Walking on happily,TWS:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

Isn't this craptastic!!!:D:p:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

@ about min 2 or so in the 3rd of the series mark ho sifu says something about performing an old form for a hung kuen master called" tiger coming out of the cave" , it is an older form of hung gar(kuen) that the master did not know, but knew it was hung gar(kuen) form. Is it possible that our tiger coming out of the cave is this form?? I know that names of forms do not neccesarily mean that they are the same form , but do you thnk it is possible??

[sean_stonehart]

@ about min 2 or so in the 3rd of the series mark ho sifu says something about performing an old form for a hung kuen master called" tiger coming out of the cave" , it is an older form of hung gar(kuen) that the master did not know, but knew it was hung gar(kuen) form. Is it possible that our tiger coming out of the cave is this form?? I know that names of forms do not neccesarily mean that they are the same form , but do you thnk it is possible??

In a word... no.

Pure & Simple. If you've been doing Hung Ga on the side as long as you claim, you'd recognize the body mechanics aren't even ball park close between any version of Hung Ga & what SD does as "Tigers" , 3rd black "Tiger/Crane" as well.

[tattooedmonk]

In a word... no.

Pure & Simple. If you've been doing Hung Ga on the side as long as you claim, you'd recognize the body mechanics aren't even ball park close between any version of Hung Ga & what SD does as "Tigers" , 3rd black "Tiger/Crane" as well.
ok....but I am not talking about how SD does the forms . I am talking about the form it's self.

I have seen the SD version of the tiger/ crane form done just like Chiu Chu Ling's. Then I have also seen it done in the other way.;):rolleyes::p

I have to admit ,again ,seeing the CSC videos of common forms makes me shudder. Most people do not spend enough time working on the details of the forms and do not have the proper intent.

I have been doing Fei Hu Chu Tung for over 15 years now and I see a drastic change in the way it was presented to me and now how I play it.

I understand that my outer CMA influences helped me with this but I know that the previous masters/ sifus I had in SD helped a great deal as well as, my own practice. I believe a lot of the power , stability , fluidity , etc. just comes with time and effort. Not everybody has the same amount of time or effort to put into their training.

I think if there were two different classes one for people who just want to get into shape and get healthy and then another one for real martial artist , then at some point after you have been doing it for health purposes it can/ will over lap.....blah blah bah....

[kungfujunky]

hey tm i dont want to get into a huge debate with others about this but id love to see how you do fei hu and compare it to myself


would you be willing to send me a vid of it privately?

we may have our differences but i respect someone who continues to perfect their stuff.

anyways lmk



also for mass consumption what is the most accepted best looking/most accurately done chen 83 posture vid out there.

ie on youtube or what not.

lmk!

[Baqualin]

hey tm i dont want to get into a huge debate with others about this but id love to see how you do fei hu and compare it to myself


would you be willing to send me a vid of it privately?

we may have our differences but i respect someone who continues to perfect their stuff.

anyways lmk



also for mass consumption what is the most accepted best looking/most accurately done chen 83 posture vid out there.

ie on youtube or what not.

lmk!

I can't wait to hear the opinions for this one.
BQ

[brucereiter]

also for mass consumption what is the most accepted best looking/most accurately done chen 83 posture vid out there.

ie on youtube or what not.

lmk!

hi kfj,

i dont know about "best" since there are so many different expressions of chen tai chi chuan.
below are links to some of the most interesting chen tai chi chuan expressions i have seen, i have learned a lot from watching them. note how different they all are from one another.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ptMHickAiVo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CPYtoFllHy8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8uu7ghVNt4M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=72yaPmAH3uw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r6Fae-nRRPA

http://youtube.com/profile?user=hunyuantaiji

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ubUcKOmWrlc

best,

bruce

[Baqualin]

hi kfj,

i dont know about "best" since there are so many different expressions of chen tai chi chuan.
below are links to some of the most interesting chen tai chi chuan expressions i have seen, i have learned a lot from watching them. note how different they all are from one another.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ptMHickAiVo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=J4w_62WX9Rk

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CPYtoFllHy8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8uu7ghVNt4M

http://youtube.com/watch?v=72yaPmAH3uw

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r6Fae-nRRPA

http://youtube.com/profile?user=hunyuantaiji

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ubUcKOmWrlc

best,

bruce

All but 2 are the cannon fist form...the last one of George is chen 83 and he is very good.......personally I like Ren Guang Yi's style the best.....he's very powerful and the top student of the top Chen Master.
Best to You,
BQ

[kungfujunky]

hmm

thx for the clips bruce

i have some homework to do on this form. so many different interpretations of the same moves.

[DPL]

Don't slow down now you slackers! Only nine pages to go!

SD executes with more martial intent than most TCMA. Discuss. :cool:

[sean_stonehart]

Don't slow down now you slackers! Only nine pages to go!

SD executes with more martial intent than most TCMA. Discuss. :cool:

Eh... 2.5 DPL.... you can do better... ;)

But I'll bite... it executes with more intent than some kinda, just like it executes with more martial intent than say TKD... people, not style.

[Judge Pen]

Do you think Su Kong Tai Djian was the inspriation for the TMNT character "Splinter"? Discuss. :cool:

[DPL]

Do you think Su Kong Tai Djian was the inspriation for the TMNT character "Splinter"? Discuss. :cool:

Clearly he was, but it leaves open the question as to who the four turtles were modeled after, as well as their hockey-stick-wielding sidekick.

[sean_stonehart]

Do you think Su Kong Tai Djian was the inspriation for the TMNT character "Splinter"? Discuss. :cool:

Hmmmm.... wookie = rat ... interesting proposal...

[DPL]

Eh... 2.5 DPL.... you can do better... ;)



:p It made you post, didn't it? :)


But I'll bite... it executes with more intent than some kinda, just like it executes with more martial intent than say TKD... people, not style.

Would you say it executes with more marital intent than other styles? Or more martially in tents?

[sean_stonehart]

:p It made you post, didn't it? :)


Ummmm.... shut it... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Would you say it executes with more marital intent than other styles? Or more martially in tents?

Hmmmm... depends.... if Jessica Alba is in the tent or not... :D

[Baqualin]

Ummmm.... shut it... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D



Hmmmm... depends.... if Jessica Alba is in the tent or not... :D


Hmmmmm....I'll bite on that one:D
BQ

[mkriii]

Hello all. Hello Baqualin. How is everyone taday? Has anyone learned anything interesting in the past couple days? Any new forms? does anyone know where I can find some information on Loong Ying (dragon style kung fu)? I learned a basic dragon form but it was more wu shu dragon than anything. I'd like to learn more of a traditional dragon form with out all the wu shu moves.

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.eiaonline.com/uploaded_images/jessica-alba-749754.jpg

i wish this came with my academy sports and outdoors tent purchase:D


Peace,TWS

[sean_stonehart]

Hello all. Hello Baqualin. How is everyone taday? Has anyone learned anything interesting in the past couple days? Any new forms? does anyone know where I can find some information on Loong Ying (dragon style kung fu)? I learned a basic dragon form but it was more wu shu dragon than anything. I'd like to learn more of a traditional dragon form with out all the wu shu moves.


www.lungyingjingjung.com and trust me wushu dragon isn't anything like the real thing.

[brucereiter]

updated:
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

[Judge Pen]

http://www.eiaonline.com/uploaded_images/jessica-alba-749754.jpg

i wish this came with my academy sports and outdoors tent purchase:D


Peace,TWS

I just pitched a tent! :p

[sean_stonehart]

I just pitched a tent! :p

Ditto on that tent sale item!!

[Baqualin]

http://www.eiaonline.com/uploaded_images/jessica-alba-749754.jpg

i wish this came with my academy sports and outdoors tent purchase:D


Peace,TWS

WOW:D:eek::):p;) WS you just made my day.....fuk pitching a tent I'm in hers!!!!

[arinathos.valin]

Thanks to Judge Pen, I'm getting some really disturbing mental images..:(

[MasterKiller]

I just pitched a tent! :p

*sends email to JP's wife*

[The Willow Sword]

I have watched Jessica Alba Since the Days of "Dark Angel" and i gotta say that she is one of THE MOST if not THE most Beautiful representation of the female that i have EVER seen. All Around Perfect!!!!! TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

Say Thank you... I had help, but the yoemen's amount of work was me.

LOL.........itdn that special.....

[Judge Pen]

*sends email to JP's wife*

No, I literally pitched a tent. One of those play-tents for my daughter's birthday party coming up. What were you guys thinking of? Jeez....

[Baqualin]

No, I literally pitched a tent. One of those play-tents for my daughter's birthday party coming up. What were you guys thinking of? Jeez....

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

[kwaichang]

Off the subject hows your Mom been KC:)

[The Willow Sword]

KC.

Mom is doing well. She is still working in Geriatrics and floating to a couple of Nursing facilities in cedar park , Round Rock and Marble Falls. She is "on call" for most of the facilities. All is well.
Tahnks for Asking, Peace, TWS

[mkriii]

Judge Pen....you said you found the old training manual that went to the t.v. show on KET. Is this the manual that has the spiral bound? I have this manual as well from when I studied at the Sport Center in 1984 or 85. Yes, he does call everything karate. The pictures in it are pretty funny. I thought I was the only one that had this book.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen....you said you found the old training manual that went to the t.v. show on PBS. Is this the manual that has the spiral bound? I have this manual as well from when I studied at the Sport Center in 1984 or 85. Yes, he does call everything karate. The pictures in it are pretty funny. I thought I was the only one that had this book.

Yes, its a spiral book that went with the KET "Karate" series.

[mkriii]

wow....I thought i was the only one that had that old thing. Does Sin The even still sell that book?

[mkriii]

Here is a question since we are talking about Sin The' and his books....On the cover of his newest book I guess he is standing in a crane stance, why on earth would you wear a pair of cheap looking tennis shoes for the cover of the book? It looks really crappy, almost like its bogus. If I were wanting to promote a book on Shaolin kung fu (or karate or whatever he calls it) I would look the part that I was playing, not wear a pair of dirty looking shoes.

[Judge Pen]

wow....I thought i was the only one that had that old thing. Does Sin The even still sell that book?

No, I didn't buy the book. A friend gave it to me--I'm not sure where he got it from.

[Judge Pen]

Here is a question since we are talking about Sin The' and his books....On the cover of his newest book I guess he is standing in a crane stance, why on earth would you wear a pair of cheap looking tennis shoes for the cover of the book? It looks really crappy, almost like its bogus. If I were wanting to promote a book on Shaolin kung fu (or karate or whatever he calls it) I would look the part that I was playing, not wear a pair of dirty looking shoes.

Maybe you should be his PR director. :p

[Flaca]

Here is a question since we are talking about Sin The' and his books....On the cover of his newest book I guess he is standing in a crane stance, why on earth would you wear a pair of cheap looking tennis shoes for the cover of the book? It looks really crappy, almost like its bogus. If I were wanting to promote a book on Shaolin kung fu (or karate or whatever he calls it) I would look the part that I was playing, not wear a pair of dirty looking shoes.

You probably don't wear a mullet either... and who cares about his shoes anyway? You think he should try for a Nike endorsement or something?

Are you Sarah Jessica Parker trolling?

[arinathos.valin]

It's "trolling" like that that has helped this thread get to near 500 pages... so don't knock the trolls!

Actually, he's not the only one who's got the same opinion about the tennis shoes. Perhaps more importantly, why don't they put out a new edition that corrects some of the inconsistencies and errors in the book?

[mkriii]

No, not a nike endorsment but there are shoes made specifically for martial arts such as pine tree, addidas, etc..... Even bare foot would have looked better than those nasty looking shoes.

Trolling? LMAO.

BTW personal appearance plays a big part when looking for a m.a. school. Wearing crappy clothes IMO is not the best way to attract students.

[sean_stonehart]

Actually, he's not the only one who's got the same opinion about the tennis shoes. Perhaps more importantly, why don't they put out a new edition that corrects some of the inconsistencies and errors in the book?


Some?? Why stop at "some"?? It'd be a great time to clear the air on (as my 4 yo stepdaughter says) "allit".

I say write a new one, skip the stories of Tripping the Light Fantastic or whatever & bare bones this thing with honesty & 100% unadulterated truth on what's what, from where, who, how & etc...

But then again I've been told I can't handle the truth but not nearly as cool as Jack would've told me. I'm still waiting to see what truth it is I can't handle.

[Lamassu]

But then again I've been told I can't handle the truth but not nearly as cool as Jack would've told me. I'm still waiting to see what truth it is I can't handle.

Well you're going to be waiting for a very long time, because the truth you're waiting for is the truth you can't handle, so by giving the truth that you're waiting for, will expose you to that which you can't handle and therefore the truth will BLOW YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!! :p

[arinathos.valin]

Lamassu has confused me...

mkriii- I put the "trolling" in quotes. Actually, some might consider me a troll as well, considering my past postings... albeit a very polite, and hopefully respectful troll :D

[sean_stonehart]

Well you're going to be waiting for a very long time, because the truth you're waiting for is the truth you can't handle, so by giving the truth that you're waiting for, will expose you to that which you can't handle and therefore the truth will BLOW YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!! :p

Eh... you'd be surprised... I've been exposed to lots & have high tolerance levels bordering on almost insane... minus pain... that's not so high...

C'mon 500...

[Lamassu]

What happened to the last person that was told the all elusive 'truth' behind the sordid history of Shaolin Do...

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[mkriii]

Well I stopped in at the Sin The school to meet Baqualin like I said I would do but he wasn't there. The only person there was a lady with blonde hair sitting at the counter where they sell the swords and stuff so I left. I might go back in a few days. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon when I stopped by.

[Judge Pen]

Well I stopped in at the Sin The school to meet Baqualin like I said I would do but he wasn't there. The only person there was a lady with blonde hair sitting at the counter where they sell the swords and stuff so I left. I might go back in a few days. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon when I stopped by.


Just a suggestion: Why don't you make arrangements with BQ so he can be there when you pop in?

[Baqualin]

Well I stopped in at the Sin The school to meet Baqualin like I said I would do but he wasn't there. The only person there was a lady with blonde hair sitting at the counter where they sell the swords and stuff so I left. I might go back in a few days. It was about 4:30 in the afternoon when I stopped by.

I work a regular Job.....you can catch me there Sat.'s 11:00am.;)
BQ

[Baqualin]

Man, these last 10 pages are taking forever....we need more trolls:eek:
BQ

[mkriii]

More trolls......lol? OK I'll try to do better at trolling. I believe that this post would be considered trolling, isn't it?

[Judge Pen]

More trolls......lol? OK I'll try to do better at trolling. I believe that this post would be considered trolling, isn't it?

How much trolling could a good troll troll if a good troll trolled SD?

[mkriii]

A good troll could troll alot if a troll trolled SD. :)

[Flaca]

No, not a nike endorsment but there are shoes made specifically for martial arts such as pine tree, addidas, etc..... Even bare foot would have looked better than those nasty looking shoes.

Trolling? LMAO.

BTW personal appearance plays a big part when looking for a m.a. school. Wearing crappy clothes IMO is not the best way to attract students.

Good, you were supposed to laugh.

Martial arts is his life, he always wears shoes and pants etc that he trains in. He wears shoes when he trains to protect his joints and feet. I wish I could wear gi pants & tennies to work. :cool:

Come on people, 500 is sooo close.
:D

[Baqualin]

Eh... you'd be surprised... I've been exposed to lots & have high tolerance levels bordering on almost insane... minus pain... that's not so high...

C'mon 500...

Guess you never made it through iron bone training:D
BQ

[kwaichang]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

[sean_stonehart]

Guess you never made it through iron bone training:D
BQ

Actually I'm pretty good with the saam sing... I like it. The Stump of Woe at my sifu's is a fav of mine that I've sadly neglected for a while.

[sean_stonehart]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

It's a PRC training set for kids. Nothing special... modern wushu SD'd.

[kwaichang]

do you know it or have you seen it ? KC

[sean_stonehart]

do you know it or have you seen it ? KC

Had it after it was initially taught out. Let it go years back.

[MasterKiller]

I just learned Youth Long Fist does anyone know the history or Chinese name for this form , it is an awesome form KC

Youth Long Fist? Is that the English name?

Qing-Nian Chuan (young fist) 青 年 拳 is a long fist form, often taught at Southern schools. I believe it was added into some Hung Gar curriculums, but it's Northern in origin.

It has two sections and is also taught as a two-man form sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD4VTtufn8c

[sean_stonehart]

Youth Long Fist? Is that the English name?

Qing-Nian Chuan (young fist) 青 年 拳 is a long fist form, often taught at Southern schools. I believe it was added into some Hung Gar curriculums, but it's Northern in origin.

It has two sections and is also taught as a two-man form sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD4VTtufn8c

Nah... this is a Chang Quan type set. I don't know what level of routine it is, but it's not the typical compulsary Chang Quan from the PRC, but it felt like it when I learned it. I could be an off the wall TCMA Chang Quan but I don't know from what school.

It's almost like those duan sets out there on youtube by the chunky woman, but a little longer. Let me stress & be uber clear... this isn't what it is... just what it felt like when you removed the rebar from the back & quit trying to overpower & overkill every single motion... this is what it would've worked like...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65KqI1qBJyI

[Judge Pen]

I could be an off the wall TCMA Chang Quan but I don't know from what school.


So you're not for certain its a PRC children's training set? I was hoping that a man with your internet acumen could find a clip of the PRC version so I could compare the two.

[kwaichang]

Some just comment on things to hear themselves rattle. Dont post if you dont know. KC:eek:

[sean_stonehart]

Some just comment on things to hear themselves rattle. Dont post if you dont know. KC:eek:

Oh I'm sorry He Who Knows Everything Is Everything SD.

I do know it's a Chang Quan set. I do know it's not from the South where SD claims roots from Fujian. I do know it wasn't taught until recent history like many other things in SD after a couple of China trips & new CDs were available to the public like Mulan Fans from Mulan Quan (which isn't even a freaking TCMA for Crissakes), Xingyi Weaponry, Bagua Weaponry...

So I'll give JP's suggestion a go & see what I can find on it for you since apparently you're not willing to look outside the SD box to see where it came from.

[sean_stonehart]

So you're not for certain its a PRC children's training set? I was hoping that a man with your internet acumen could find a clip of the PRC version so I could compare the two.

I'm gonna give it a shot to look it up.

I said it was a PRC training set for kids but I could very easily be wrong with that assumption, since we all know who assuming does. Think of "intro" level or maybe even the stuff taught at schools for PE since it's not the compulsary comp form. Or it may be a small TCMA set but it didn't feel like it.

I'll see what I can find to appease He Who Can Not Be Wrong Since All Is SD up the street from you. Maybe something, maybe not.

[Judge Pen]

I'm gonna give it a shot to look it up.

I said it was a PRC training set for kids but I could very easily be wrong with that assumption, since we all know who assuming does. Think of "intro" level or maybe even the stuff taught at schools for PE since it's not the compulsary comp form. Or it may be a small TCMA set but it didn't feel like it.

I'll see what I can find to appease He Who Can Not Be Wrong Since All Is SD up the street from you. Maybe something, maybe not.

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

[sean_stonehart]

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

Thanks... that should help some.


I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

Given the amount of stuff that's out there, you'd think. I'll let you know what I find or don't find.

[OTD]

Had it after it was initially taught out. Let it go years back.

Sean
Have you also been taught the 4 china hands as well
and let them go by the way side as well
OTH

[sean_stonehart]

Sean
Have you also been taught the 4 china hands as well
and let them go by the way side as well
OTH

The 2 at brown. Those were the only 2 I had.

When I say "let them go" I mean I don't practice them, haven't practiced them since the day I left & don't intend to in the future. That's not meaning I don't remember them or have totally forgotten them, but they are far away on the back burner. All of the SD material is. The older it is, the more engrained in the memory banks it is, the more likely I could reproduce it again if there was a need to. The newer the material was ... not so much.

[B-Rad]

Any hope of someone going through it on video and posting it up? If it's modern chang quan, I'd most likely recognize it, and I've got quite a few Chinese chang quan vcds and training manuals lying around.

[bodhi warrior]

I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

[Judge Pen]

I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

Doesn't the 1987 Inside Kung Fu Magazine reference over 900 forms? If so, that would pre-date the early 1990s Indonesia trip.

[Chain Whip]

Originally Posted by bodhi warrior
I can remember back in the late 80's early 90's GMS stated he would teach everything he knew in the next 5 years. Then he made his trip to indonesia and knew 900 forms all of a sudden. But if you look at Hiang's material its stayed relatively the same, with a few addtions over the years. And he doesn't claim 900 forms either.
Comments, please.

The 900 forms claim started in the late 80's. From what I understand - and I could be wrong here. Master Grooms actually was the first to say "900 forms." This is because the Soards told him something like it was 300 forms to reach 6th Black and that at that point you had 1/3 of the system. (keep in mind back in the mid 80's there were no 6th Blacks except for EM Leonard possibly) Being such a math wizard he figured that meant 900 forms and said so in his marketing materials (which has since been removed) I do not believe there is any mention of 900 forms prior to this point. However, if someone can produce something claiming 900 forms that pre-dates about 1986 then I would be obviously incorrect.

[bodhi warrior]

If there were 300 forms by 6th, then why is there less than 200 listed up to 5th black?if you look at the masters certificates they have less than 200 also.

[sean_stonehart]

I don't have the characters for the set, but the romanization I have for the form is Tung Tze Chang Chien

I think the name might be a bit generic using that because most Tong Zi sets I've found are the Shaolin Tong Zi Gong & that ain't it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t73DTMVBNqo


I'll be interested if you can find an example of the same form. I'm sure its out there somewhere.

I got turned onto a series earlier called Juvenile Chang Quan but I'm not dishing the cash out for them, possible hits or not. If it were CLF... maybe. But not Chang Quan. ;)

[Chain Whip]

If there were 300 forms by 6th, then why is there less than 200 listed up to 5th black?if you look at the masters certificates they have less than 200 also.

Good question. The Master Certificates were designed and printed in Atlanta, based on the information on the chart that GMT wrote out a few years earlier outlining the material up to 5th Black. On that list at least 3 of the Drunken Immortals have still not been taught. When the Soards were telling Master Grooms the bit about the 300 forms there were no Master Certificates to look at, nor was there a list of requirements from 5th to 6th. So, to answer your question there were never 300 forms required for 6th Black.

[B-Rad]

I got turned onto a series earlier called Juvenile Chang Quan but I'm not dishing the cash out for them, possible hits or not. If it were CLF... maybe. But not Chang Quan.

Is this the series?
http://www.xinxingshop.us/product_67.html

[sean_stonehart]

Yup tht's it

[Judge Pen]

Atlanta is the only group, that I know of, that refers to the the forms Lien U Chang and Chie Chien as 'China Hand'. Anyone from the ATL group know why its called that down there?

[kungfujunky]

i learned them as part of the whirling palm system

[mkriii]

I've noticed that everyone here seems to talk about GMS but know one ever talks about his brother who is now a grandmaster of Central Shaolin Martial Arts. What I find interesting is that know where on either ones web site do you see them mention the other. Not even in the history section of thier site where you would expect to see a little something mentioned. The two of them taught together for what, ten years or more? Kind of strange to me. Must of been one hell of an arguement between the two to not even recognize each other. Talk about a family fued. Who can tell me something about GM Hwang The' and his Central Shaolin Martial Art?

[OTD]

mkrii
Since you are starting your "school", seems to me you would be more interested in it's history, instead of ancient SD history. If you were so interested in the The brothers maybe you should have stayed in the SD system and received the informaton directly. Besides questions like yours just raises the "troll" flag.
OTD

[Judge Pen]

I've noticed that everyone here seems to talk about GMS but know one ever talks about his brother who is now a grandmaster of Central Shaolin Martial Arts. What I find interesting is that know where on either ones web site do you see them mention the other. Not even in the history section of thier site where you would expect to see a little something mentioned. The two of them taught together for what, ten years or more? Kind of strange to me. Must of been one hell of an arguement between the two to not even recognize each other. Talk about a family fued. Who can tell me something about GM Hwang The' and his Central Shaolin Martial Art?

Whatever happened is between the brothers. All we could do is speculate and guess, and I'd rather focus my energy elsewhere.

[mkriii]

OTD......I know the history of my school, the true history. Do you know yours? I mean the true history? I seriously doubt it. Besides, to quote Jack Nicholson....You can't handle the truth. Do you know all about the self promoting? Do you know the history of violent attacks on other schools instructors at tournaments? Are you really learning Chinese kung fu? Or are you learning a little bit of hodge podge from here and there? Most of you Shaolin Do guys have been brainwashed to believe everything that you all are told. Most of you are Sin The' cool aid drinkers. I understand it's not your fault, you've been brainwashed so I'll overlook it. You have cuaght me on a bad day so don't start with me OTD.

[mkriii]

Judge......I don't really care what the fight between the two were about. It's not our business, I am curious though. My main reason for posting was that I just thought it was interesting that the two brothers don't mention a word of the other on thier web sites. You would think that as long as they were together that you would find some mention of them under the history section of their web sites.

:)

[mkriii]

OTD....How much trolling can a troll troll in SD? Answer me that!!! Bet you can't.

:)

[Judge Pen]

OTD....How much trolling can a troll troll in SD? Answer me that!!! Bet you can't.

:)

Eh, right now your troll count is 131 posts. :D

[kungfujunky]

mkrii

you are starting a school .....are you the grandmaster? or do you have one that will visit and train your students? or is he just a picture on the wall?

whatever you people want to say i get to train with my grandmaster multiple times each year.

ive seen his body mechanics and his conditioning. ive seen his power and explosiveness.

i am not brainwashed. i have seen it.

the brothers split for various reasons that are nobodies business but the brothers and the senior masters in the art who were there.

[OTD]

mkrii
Go to another thread. This cow died years ago and it doesn't need your bull
OTD

[mkriii]

Kungfujunky.......No I'm not the grandmaster. My teacher is in Boston but I get to train with him about every other month. He is not a Grandmaster either. I do get to train with our Grandmaster though. Our Grandmaster lives about 4 hours away from where I live (Lexington Ky). He does not teach B.S. like some teachers or grandmasters do. He is a very smart man. He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields, he is a doctor, and a practicing pharmacist. Not only is he smart school wise but also martial art wise as well.

[DPL]

He holds college dgrees in 7 different fields...

You do realize that this has nothing to do with intelligence, don't you? College degrees are a lot like black belts - you can buy them lots of places with minimal outlay of effort. Not saying your GM did that, but he could have 20 degrees and it doesn't prove a thing.

With rare exceptions, the most a college degree says about you is that you proved you can jump through the correct hoops.

[Citong Shifu]

The 900 forms claim started in the late 80's. From what I understand - and I could be wrong here. Master Grooms actually was the first to say "900 forms." This is because the Soards told him something like it was 300 forms to reach 6th Black and that at that point you had 1/3 of the system. (keep in mind back in the mid 80's there were no 6th Blacks except for EM Leonard possibly) Being such a math wizard he figured that meant 900 forms and said so in his marketing materials (which has since been removed) I do not believe there is any mention of 900 forms prior to this point. However, if someone can produce something claiming 900 forms that pre-dates about 1986 then I would be obviously incorrect.

Shoot! After 31 years in the martial arts I have quite an extensive collection of Shaolin and other Shao