Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Man, they're coming out of the woodwork around here. Maybe you should ask Gene for your own forum. 28 pages is a long read. :D

[Judge Pen]

Maybe we'll just come over and all post on the Nothern Manits forum instead. :D

[shen ku]

JP do you know of any shao-lin do school in nashville

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP do you know of any shao-lin do school in nashville

Yeah, there's a small school there. Ernest McClain is the teacher and a 2nd degree I believe. He's a good guy and quick as a cat.

[norther practitioner]

quick as a cat you say...

[BM2]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
I have said hi to you at the last few seminars.........:D

I'm sooo glad we cleared up that hot buttered popcorn thingy!!! Hey, you probably already forgot and don't know what I am talking about ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

the real question is, is judgepen for real?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by BM2
I'm sooo glad we cleared up that hot buttered popcorn thingy!!! Hey, you probably already forgot and don't know what I am talking about ;) Hey, at least he's weening off the Viagra. Give the old guy a break.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Yeah, there's a small school there. Ernest McClain is the teacher and a 2nd degree I believe. He's a good guy and quick as a cat. What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

[Radhnoti]

I know guys who weren't interested in testing for additional belts after 1st black who have 20+ years in...

My teacher didn't think he'd ever teach (which becomes somewhat political) and had a teacher who didn't care if he ever tested for another belt. He had around 10 years in as a (practicing and active) first black, but he had all the material necessary for 3rd worked up for a long time.

But, yeah, someone could advance really quickly and still end up teaching if one of the Master-types (usually GM Sin, I believe) think they're ready.

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

How much skill does it really take to teach rank beginners?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by lxtruong
How much skill does it really take to teach rank beginners?


Well not much if you're not interested in teaching or don't care about the student... not much at all. Take a gander at any McDojo & you can see that... $$$$$$ is the rule of thumb.

If however you're interested in turning good well rounded students, it takes skill.

Any monkey can learn, but not any monkey can teach...

[MasterKiller]

word.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
What's it take, like 4-5 years to get 2nd Black?

Who is ready to run a school after 4 years?

Seems pretty common in SD. The guy in Lubbock is what, a first degree black? What's that, 3 years of training?

I don't know how long he's been training, but it takes at least 5 years to get 2nd under the Tennessee schools. I'm pretty sure he's been training longer than that.

I've been doing it for 15 and I don't want to teach.

And SL I'm not real; I'm a figment of your imagination.

[lxtruong]

Sure it takes skill, but skill isn't measured in years. Experience is constantly being gained and even as your students evolve, you evolve as well.

Consider for instance, for the first couple of months, most of what the average student learns are the basics. A skilled martial artist with only a couple of years can teach that. After that, it's not like you haven't gone through what your students have gone through, no?

I would definately say that teaching in some form or another is essential to growth as a martial artist.

[MasterKiller]

With 4 or 5 years of training or less, you are probably barely qualified to assist your instructor, let alone run a school on your own.

Would you want someone with 5 years of training as your head instructor? Me neither.

[lxtruong]

If you were a freshman in college, would you demand that you have a college professor tutoring you in algebra or would a college freshman be enough?

Why does it matter how many years the head instructor have? As long as he knows a lot more than me, isn't that enough? It would be one thing certainly if he didnt 'have more knowledge than me, but consider that this is your first day of martial arts instruction. I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20.

[Judge Pen]

Nope, honestly I wouldn't want them to be my head instructor, either, but I'm sure there could be exceptions. Someone with other training prior to joining a system (I'm not just talking about SD here). Maybe they're prodigies. Maybe other factors outweigh a lack of experience.

But generally, no I would look for the most experienced instructor as possible.

[themeecer]

I agree that 1st and 2nd degree black belts should not be teaching. In our system you are not even viewed as a student until you hit first black. However like stated above, some people could care less about testing and even though they are a first degree they may have 15+ years experience. I was a first for about 8 years and a second for about 9 years. I guess I like the decade a rank advancement program. I have seen instances where this is not the case, where a practioner of 5 years is running his own school. I disagree with this 100%.

edit: I am only speaking of head instructors. I allow first degree black belts to teach the lower belts during class, all the time. Difference is, I personally come by and check their material and make any adjustments needed.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
If you were a freshman in college, would you demand that you have a college professor tutoring you in algebra or would a college freshman be enough? Tutor = Assistant Instructor. Teach the class = head instructor. There is a difference, IMO.

It would be one thing certainly if he didnt 'have more knowledge than me, but consider that this is your first day of martial arts instruction. Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?

I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20. If you wanted to be a very good astronomer, would you want to study math under someone with a B.S. or a Ph.D? I think I'd seek out the Ph.D. If I cared about being good, that is...

[lxtruong]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Tutor = Assistant Instructor. Teach the class = head instructor. There is a difference, IMO.

Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?

If you wanted to be a very good astronomer, would you want to study math under someone with a B.S. or a Ph.D? I think I'd seek out the Ph.D. If I cared about being good, that is...

Ah, but if you wanted to be a very good astronomer, and you were only a HS student, would you reject learning from someone because they JUST had a BS?

Of course, if someone walks into the school with 10 years of experience, there is probably not all that much that the head instructor with only 5 years experience can teach them. They should go elsewhere. Does this mean that the instructor there has no business teaching though?

I maintain that only the delta-skill matters. The instructor with 4 years experience is an appropiate instructor for some students, not all.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And SL I'm not real; I'm a figment of your imagination.

thank god. i got scared there for a minute ;)

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I maintain that only the delta-skill matters. The instructor with 4 years experience is an appropiate instructor for some students, not all. I agree. He's the approproiate teacher for students not interested in being very good.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller

Not everyone who walks into a CMA school is a n00b. What happens when you get a new student with 5 years in another style who just moved to town?


They would either leave or beat the crap out of the instructor and take over teaching.

I think Meece makes an excellent point. Just because someone can attain a rank in a certain minimum time doesn't mean they have. A first degree with 10 years of experience is probably more qualified to teach then a 2nd degree with 5 years total. Not necessarily true, but I'd go for experience over material, all other things equal.

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by lxtruong
I would maintain that someone with 4 years can teach you just as much as someone with 8 or 20.


You mean i have been doing this crap all this time for nothing?

Actually, I would have to disagree with you on this one lxt. Old people made it that long for a reason....wisdom and experience that only time can provide.

[shen ku]

JP, do you know how to get in touch with the nashville school? i have a student that has been out and then moved for school and is wanting to start again?
On the idea of what rank or how long you have been training in order to teach, i had been training for 7 years when i started, i had been a 1st black for 3 years. i learned things from teaching that i would have never learned simply by praticing, teaching helped me as much ( maybe more ) than it did those i was working with. I do not feel anyone person can say when someone should start or what is a flat out standard for this.
I can say
1 i learned alot!!!! from teaching. you may have found all the answers to your ??? but now someone elsa is asking you theirs and you must dig deep and study hard
2 i have no dought that i am a better teacher today than i was then and that is because i have been doing it, experience? the thing is what are you experienced at practicing or teaching?
3 even now when i feel that i am a more skilled teacher, i have old students come up to me and thank me for what i showed them in 1993 ( thats when i started teaching ) BUT I DO WONDER sometimes am i as fired up as i was then, do my students see how much i enjoy what i do, are they able to feed off it ,
Some people will never teach and for them i am sad,

"Everyone we meet will be superior to us in some way, whether it be in wisdom, wealth, or strength" old chinese proverb

" if you wish to truely learn, take a student "

" to be a master be a survent , to be survent be a master "

and if we all waited untill we were truely ready, no one would ever start

[Vash]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
A first degree with 10 years of experience is probably more qualified to teach then a 2nd degree with 5 years total. Not necessarily true, but I'd go for experience over material, all other things equal.

Ahhh! The logic!! It burns like hygiene!!!

[Judge Pen]

SK,

You are right, you do learn more teaching then anything. I've taught as an assistant for years, but I take that responsability very seriously. Why take from me when you can learn from my teacher who is much better than me?

And there are other factors besides experience: enthusiam, communication skills, physical ability, organizational skills, opportunity, resources, etc, etc., but if all those things were the same or similar, I'd take the more experienced teacher over the less.

I'll see if I can get some information to you regarding the Nashville school. I don't think it's listed on the SDA site anymore.

[Brad]

Just thought I'd go back to the college analogy for a second, and say why I don't like it and don't think it's valid when it comes to martial arts.

First of all, to get a "4 year degree" still usually takes more than 4 years. Just because we don't count highschool(or even middle school) when saying "4 year degree", you're still learning skills often directly related to what you end up studying in college. And that means you're going to school pretty much full time. Martial arts often has a mental/acedemic aspect, but it's also a physical dicipline first. How many athletes only play their sport for 4 years of their life, and then suddenly get a head coaching job?

[shen ku]

brad, if you look around you can also find coaches , head and assistants , that have really never played much of their sport at all

[Brad]

Like who(that's been successful?)? The only one I can think of is Wu Bin (the old Beijing wushu team head coach) but he still called in VERY experienced masters to do the actual teaching.

[Judge Pen]

I don't think Joe Gibbs played football, at any advanced level, prior to winning three superbowls as a coach. I could be wrong.

[MasterKiller]

Professional sports coaches are almost always college players that couldn't play professionally. They get an entry level coaching job working for peanuts and work their way up over many, many years. They basically learn how to coach on the job, UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MORE EXPERIENCED COACHES. They aren't running their own programs and learning as they go.

That's why you see "lineages" of head coaches. At one time, every head coach in the NFL had been an assistant under Tom Landry. In the 80s and early 90s, almost all the head coaches had been assistants at SF. Up until a couple of years ago, about 1/2 off all the head coaches were at some time assistants under Jimmy Johnson.

And I can guarantee you none of them had 5 years or less of training to do their jobs.

For example:

Bill Cowher began his NFL career as a free-agent linebacker with the Philadelphia Eagles in 1979, and then signed with the Cleveland Browns the following year. Cowher played three seasons (1980-82) in Cleveland before being traded back to the Eagles, where he played two more years (1983-84). Cowher began his coaching career in 1985 at age 28 under Marty Schottenheimer with the Browns. He was the Browns’ special teams coach in 1985-86 and secondary coach in 1987-88 before following Schottenheimer to the Kansas City Chiefs in 1989 as defensive coordinator. He became head coach of the Steelers in 1992.

That's 17 years of playing/training (including college) before he became a head coach.

Belichick was a center/tight end at Wesleyan 1971-74. He launched his career in 1975 as a special assistant with the Baltimore Colts, then became an assistant special teams coach with Detroit (1976-77) and Denver (1978). In 1979, he joined the New York Giants as the special teams coach, and by 1981 he was also working with the linebackers. In 1985, he was named defensive coordinator and contributed to the Giants winning Super Bowl titles in 1986 and again in 1990. Following Super Bowl XXV, Belichick was named head coach of the Cleveland Browns in 1991, becoming the youngest head coach in the NFL at age 37.

That's 20 years of playing/coaching experience before getting a head coaching job...

Sure, some guys get there in less time. But they usually don't stick around very long...

[Judge Pen]

I don't think someone with just 3 to 5 years years of MA experience should be the head instructor of a school unless they are simply a prodigy of some sort. I think at least 10 to 15 total experience with at least 3 to 5 years teaching as an assistant would be required before you could consider yourself competent to teach as the head honcho of your kwoon.

With coaches, they are assistants for years first. Most have played the sport at some advanced level, but there are some who didn't. But they were taught how to coach under someone more experienced than them, so it's ok. The greatest fighters don't necessarily make the greatest teachers.

[Wharg0ul]

Kinda silly for a student scoping out schools to sign up under someone who's been training for less than 10 years. But of course you have kids and what-not who don't bother researching their school.

My instructer is a couple years older than me (34, to be exact), and has been training since he was a young child, with only the last 9 years being SD before he was offered the head instructor job here in the springs, simply because no one else was qualified. He didn't want it, but realised that there was no one else to do it.

Personally, I'm glad he chose to, mainly because he's a good instructor, and a helluva guy. Of course, it's also nice that he has so many years of training in other systems, plus a short stint of tourney fighting.

But how could 1st / 2nd blacks get away with even claiming to be "head instructor".....wouldn't they get laughed at a bit too often?

(wanders back to his flu-ridden misery)

[shen ku]

you know i think alot of people forget that in alot of areas of this country a 1st or 2nd is much more than most have and alot of people appriciate the chance to learn period.

oh but i was reading about a school just to day ( buisness side of the martial arts ) they had a program where if some on wanted to be a martial arts instructor.....with having never had any training.....doing for a buisness..... they could take you from beginner to black belt instructor and in offer buisness training on how to run a profitable school ... long trem .... in just 1 year yes just 12 months???????

[cho]

This isn't a Shaolin-do topic! No one is calling each other names or questioning each other's lineage!:mad: :mad:

okay, I got one for y'all: If that hairy guy was such a bad ass, how come there are no other legends of him? If he mastered a lot of styles, he'd have a lot of teachers. And wouldn't those teachers also have other students? And wouldn't those other students wonder "how did that hairy mother$%^&* master our school so fast" ? Even if he only mastered one style and repeatedly kicked ass, he'd be more legendary than Wong Fei Hung or Fong Sai Yuk, just by being hairy. Like another guy who supposedly had white eyebrows.

and I'm gonna the throw in the required YOU'RE ALL FRAUDS!! :p :p :p :p

carry on

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by cho
This isn't a Shaolin-do topic! No one is calling each other names or questioning each other's lineage!:mad: :mad:

okay, I got one for y'all: If that hairy guy was such a bad ass, how come there are no other legends of him? If he mastered a lot of styles, he'd have a lot of teachers. And wouldn't those teachers also have other students? And wouldn't those other students wonder "how did that hairy mother$%^&* master our school so fast" ? Even if he only mastered one style and repeatedly kicked ass, he'd be more legendary than Wong Fei Hung or Fong Sai Yuk, just by being hairy. Like another guy who supposedly had white eyebrows.

and I'm gonna the throw in the required YOU'RE ALL FRAUDS!! :p :p :p :p

carry on

It's funny when someone posts what you are thinking...

:p ;)

[Wharg0ul]

funny when someone tosses a match into an oil spill.

Other than that, I'm not going to bother to comment on an obvious attempt to cause trouble.

[themeecer]

Yawn.:o

[Judge Pen]

TTT cho. We've talked about all that (and nothing will ever ve resolved!) :D

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by shen ku
you know i think alot of people forget that in alot of areas of this country a 1st or 2nd is much more than most have and alot of people appriciate the chance to learn period.

oh but i was reading about a school just to day ( buisness side of the martial arts ) they had a program where if some on wanted to be a martial arts instructor.....with having never had any training.....doing for a buisness..... they could take you from beginner to black belt instructor and in offer buisness training on how to run a profitable school ... long trem .... in just 1 year yes just 12 months??????? I would expect anyone of those students to be about as good, or worse, as any other 12 month student. The belt doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I would expect anyone of those students to be about as good, or worse, as any other 12 month student. The belt doesn't mean anything if you can't back it up.

That's always true. Rank means nothing no matter the manner of expression (belt, sash, certificate). What's in your head and how can your body express the mind's intent against a resisting opponent vs what's around your waist or hanging on your wall.

[David Jamieson]

Rank means nothing no matter the manner of expression (belt, sash, certificate).

you tell that to the Marine DI when you get drafted. :p

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
you tell that to the Marine DI when you get drafted. :p

I'm too old to get drafted.

[MasterKiller]

I'm too pretty to get drafted.

[Dark Knight]

Kinda silly for a student scoping out schools to sign up under someone who's been training for less than 10 years. But of course you have kids and what-not who don't bother researching their school.

Rank or time in does not mean you can teach. When you go to a school you are looking for someone that can teach you and coach you.

I wouldnt be quick to judge an instructor on time in compared to knowledge and teaching ability.

[Dark Knight]

The greatest fighters don't necessarily make the greatest teachers.

Exactly

[oldmonkey]

So what have we learned so far, kids?

Gene wants to mess with our colons and MK is too pretty to get drafted...?

The SD teachers I know are exceptional martial artists.

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
The SD teachers I know are exceptional martial artists.

Ditto, here in Colorado.

[GeneChing]

...don't bring my colon messing into your Shaolin Do debates. That has nothing to do with it. Or if it does, I really don't want to know and recant my colon messing comment. :eek:

[serene_dragon]

My thoughts on instructors- It all depends on individuals, experience is allways a plus, for new students (who are serious about martial arts) it would be recomended to check the history and if the instructor are still affiliated with his or her system. Also is the instructor someone is is still trying to further his or her abilities and knowledge of martial arts.

A 1st black can be a good instructor for beginners if he or she is continueing on but for someone who does jump from system to system after reaching black belt and has experience in many different styles then you would be better off finding a more experienced instructor.

For those who jump around from system to system you will never truely get the best that each one has to offer (with the exception of those styles that when you reach black belt they tell you to go learn a different one)
I know that I dont teach this kind of martial artist the best that my style has to offer. And I dont believe other serious martial artist do either.

[serene_dragon]

Cho said this is not a Shaolin subject

So he does comment on a Shaolin topic even if it is in a way to put Shaolin down.

He refers to the hairy guy who mastered all of Shaolin. And he wanders why he doesnt have more stories told about him doing amazing things.

My thoughts would be for someone to master all of Shaolin, then he had to put a lifetime of training and practice into it. I doubt he had alot of spare time and I doubt that he went out looking for trouble or even went out much at all because of his appearance. And for someone who didnt show off his abilities or be made to display them on another person in defense or any other reason then he should be admired not questioned.

[Starchaser107]

:)

[Fred Sanford]

My thoughts would be for someone to master all of Shaolin, then he had to put a lifetime of training and practice into it. I doubt he had alot of spare time and I doubt that he went out looking for trouble or even went out much at all because of his appearance. And for someone who didnt show off his abilities or be made to display them on another person in defense or any other reason then he should be admired not questioned.

sure that explains it. :rolleyes:

Are you going to tell us about Sin The's movie too???

[cerebus]

That seems to be the problem. The whole "Let's just admire him, not question him" attitude. Let's not have any concern for the truth. Just stop thinking and do as you're told. :rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by cerebus
That seems to be the problem. The whole "Let's just admire him, not question him" attitude. Let's not have any concern for the truth. Just stop thinking and do as you're told. :rolleyes:

It is a problem (and not just in SD, but certainly we are a prime example). I can't explain everything about our history and lineage. I don't try to. . . . I worry about the efficacy of the art, how well my teachers teach, how well I learn and apply what I know, and if I can use it in a pinch. That's why I still train in SD. Not because I can find independent sources to verify Ie Chang Ming or Su Kong Tai Jin, but because I have good martial artists as my teachers. But I do question things and consider all the counter-points. Just because they don't "change my mind" and convince me to train exclusively elsewhere doesn’t mean I don't question and think for myself.

But part of the problem is that some students can't do that, get on these forums citing the party lines without autonomous thought, and eventually they recess deeper into their hole or their world comes crashing down around them. A little free thought never hurt anyone.

[Radhnoti]

Well said JP.

However, I would agree with the criticism that certain higher-ups in SD don't (in my opinion) want anything short of blind obedience. You just happen to be in an area of the SD political world where that's not AS MUCH of an issue.

I also doubt this is an issue exclusive to SD...in fact it could (and has) been argued that this is quite common in traditional CMA styles.

[Ralphie]

imo, the problem with SD is not uncommon in any other so called martial arts program/style. At the core, they lack any real method to teach skill; weather it's skill in fighting or performing. Even with this lack of methodology, there's still insane claims of deadly techniques and otherworldy powers. To its credit, Kung Fu has developed venues that test both performance and fighting skill. The schools that do not engage in these things, usually do so out of fear of being fraudulant. While they insulate themselves with ill founded thoughts like the old "what is taught here is to deadly for the ring", the reality of it is they have developed cult-like adherence to a bunk credo. It pays better to brand yourself outside of public competition. It is also easier to talk up your credentials than to prove them to a discerning audience.

One of the many negative things that comes out of these types of isolated groups, beyond being bilked out of your money, is that if you have a stated goal, that type of venue does not support it. Your essentially taking a shot in the dark in hopes that you hit your target. Of course, unless, your goal is to congregate with people who like to regurgatate familiar BS stories about people they don't know, and maybe workout a little bit.

I know, this story is about other people, or sub-groups in your organization. No way could this mirror your experience, because your sifu has been studying for 30 years under Grandmaster Gobblygook, who is of the heir to the shao lin throne. I don't know, i guess it's up to you to think critically about these things...

[Judge Pen]

Ralphie, did you mean to say that the problem with SD is not common in any other martial arts program/style? I think that's what you were trying to say.

And we can only speak from our own experience. No more and no less. I am, however, always willing to work out with other groups. I don't isolate myself.

[Ralphie]

Actually, I was saying it is not uncommon (unfortunately). What I left out was "many" so called...instead of "any". IMO, it is turning the other way, but still too much isolationism/cult behavior in many martial arts circles. I was trying to make it not just a Shao lin Do thing, but a problem that exists in general.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
And we can only speak from our own experience. No more and no less. I am, however, always willing to work out with other groups. I don't isolate myself. True...but at the same time, I have yet to see an SD'er at Taiji Legacy. It's the biggest traditional tournament in the Southwest, and there are plenty of SD schools in TX or LA that could represent. Hell, there are people from Mexico City, South Africa, China, England, etc... but no one from the Dallas SD schools can make it? Ever?

[Judge Pen]

You're right MK. I suppose some SDers have gone, but I don't know of it. I know that there's been some SDers at the Battle of Atlanta in the past, but I don't know how they faired (which probably means they weren't outstanding but doesn't mean that they were bad). I've considered going to the TaiJi legacy myself, but last years schedule and injury interferred with me (I wouldn't have done forms anyway, but I would have considered fighting). This year's schedule isn't looking favorable either but it's possible. They have an old man's division down there?

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
They have an old man's division down there?

Yeah but you're too young... :eek:

Me on the other hand... :D

[Judge Pen]

I'm not only too old, but like MK I'm just too pretty! :p We'll see who moves slower this weekend!

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I'm not only too old, but like MK I'm just too pretty! :p We'll see who moves slower this weekend!

Cool... :eek:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
They have an old man's division down there? Yeah, but it's 35+. So, for the next 3 years, I have to lose to 20 year olds.

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
True...but at the same time, I have yet to see an SD'er at Taiji Legacy. It's the biggest traditional tournament in the Southwest, and there are plenty of SD schools in TX or LA that could represent. Hell, there are people from Mexico City, South Africa, China, England, etc... but no one from the Dallas SD schools can make it? Ever?

may be because the taichi taught at SD is slightly different than other taichi schools. for yang 24, there are several differences that i've noticed and i only taken taichi for 3 months, well at least here in southern texas.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Jhapa
may be because the taichi taught at SD is slightly different than other taichi schools. for yang 24, there are several differences that i've noticed and i only taken taichi for 3 months, well at least here in southern texas. Taiji Legacy is a traditional Kung Fu tournament, not a Tai Chi tournament. Last year they had about 1,500 competitors in San Shou, Forms, Weapons, Wushu, Shuai Chiao, and Tai Chi divisions. If you guys got out more, you'd know that. ;)

[norther practitioner]

Thats what I don't get, yang 24 is a standardized set.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Thats what I don't get, yang 24 is a standardized set. It's because the entire world except SD does wushu, NP. Even though the 24-step set is wushu. :p

[Wharg0ul]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
It's because the entire world except SD does wushu, NP. Even though the 24-step set is wushu. :p

That's it right there. I don't practice Kung-Fu to look pretty and impress judges. Wushu is cool and all, but I prefer something a bit more practical.

Weather or not SD's origins/lineage can be proven or not, it's an effective fighting art...(IF the student goes the extra mile and actually practices application)..or at least in the way it's tought here in Colorado. I say this from practical, personal experience, not as a parroting of the claims of my teacher.

We're encouraged here to read books and investigate other systems. There's none of the "cult mentality" that I keep reading about here. I guess I should consider myself fortunate to have a good teacher with more than just SD as a background.

[norther practitioner]

While it is standardized wushu, that is a form that I have used with some success in push hands comps around the country. Well that and two moves from the long form.

[Wharg0ul]

well, to clarify, I wasn't speaking specifically of Combined 24. I practice it, and use it to great sucess in application.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I've considered going to the TaiJi legacy myself, but last years schedule and injury interferred with me (I wouldn't have done forms anyway, but I would have considered fighting). This year's schedule isn't looking favorable either but it's possible. [/B]

I'm in the same boat. Since I've got family in Austin it's a doable trip for me. However it looks like I'll be in Denver for two weeks in june and I don't really want to turn around and go to Dallas the next month.

To address the other point made, why none of the SD schools in Texas/LA attend. I think they would do themselves a favor by attending and competing. Better to be out on the floor than sitting on the bench.

-Will

[serene_dragon]

Am I missing something?

I dont see what the big deal is about competing in tournaments. I have competed in open as well as closed tournaments, I have brought home trophies but not much more. Yes you do learn techn. that will get you points and how to perform your katas to impress the judges, but how does that help me in a real situation.
In my opinion all it does is hender me. What I mean by that is you dont fight in a tourn the same as you would on the street. So what benefits do I get for the time spent as well as the money to compete in somthing that has such a small influence in my training. And if you do practice to do beter in tourn. then you are practicing something that in a real situation will get you hurt, or your shortcutting your katas to the point that you are loosing the techn. that are there. I find my time is beter spent studying my mat. and getting together with freinds and colleagues to practice.

[wdl]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
Am I missing something?

So what benefits do I get for the time spent as well as the money to compete in somthing that has such a small influence in my training.

Alot. By going to open and closed tournaments you get to meet people and make friends, maybe enemies, contacts etc. This allows you to get a view into other people's mindset. You might have to fight someone on the street from another style. Getting an idea of what to expect from them is a step ahead. While you may not get that idea from sparring with them once at a tournament, through the sharing of thoughts and ideas with people you meet you can.

Tournaments benefit you in many more ways. I don't train my forms to impress judges, Tournaments give me a reason to pick a form and work it over and over again, not to flash it up, not to make it what someone wants to see, but make it closer to how it was taught. Who cares about a piece of plastic on a little wooden base? As far as sparring goes, I learn something at every tournament I attend. Whether it's how to counter a technique or something as simple as bringing something to drink with you and keeping it close to the ring for between fights(learned that one at my second tournament). While the things you learn may not be directly appliable on the street, who cares? Your still learning something. That's the point isn't it.

-Will

[Starchaser107]

why don't you compete in san shou or some other full contact tournament.

[wdl]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
why don't you compete in san shou or some other full contact tournament.

I think he's including those too because you can't rip the other dudes arm out of socket and stuff it down his throat backwards while breaking his knee. Plus other dude isn't trying to do the same to you, literally. Figuratively maybe. :D

Another thing serene_dragon, training to tournament spar trains you to be light on your feet and mobile. How does that not help you in a street fight?

-Will

[Starchaser107]

sigh

[norther practitioner]

practice to do beter in tourn. then you are practicing something that in a real situation will get you hurt, or your shortcutting your katas to the point that you are loosing the techn. that are there. I find my time is beter spent studying my mat. and getting together with freinds and colleagues to practice.

sigh

[Ralphie]

i was going to reply, but....

*sigh*

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, but it's 35+. So, for the next 3 years, I have to lose to 20 year olds.

Plan: Go and watch and train for the next 5 years! :D

[MasterKiller]

You know, they have paramedics on site at Taiji Legacy for a reason...I've seen shoulders and elbows dislocated from throws off the platform. If that's not real enough for you, perhaps you are Batman.

[Judge Pen]

Honestly, Serene Dragon, peer review is essential in any field. Why not get out there and practice with other martial artists that study other styles? There's no reason not to if the opportunities are available.

[Judge Pen]

But, the Battle of Atlanta has a Division for Men 30-39. There's a thought. . . . I wonder if my knee will be ok by then. . . .

How much do you weigh, MK? :D

[MasterKiller]

Between 175 and 178, depending on how many Dr. Pepper's I've had during the week. :D

[Judge Pen]

Dam n. We would be in a different weight class. I'm at 190 now, but should be down to 180 by October.

[serene_dragon]

The fastest way to find out about someone is to put forth a closed minded remark and observe the response.

Im not at all closed minded as I have let on, I have taken other styles untill i found the one that best works for me. I do enjoy tourn. I try to go at least once or twice a year (if time and money permits) I do agree there is alot you can get out of a tourn. (especially open)
and everyone had a good point to make on this topic. The bigger the variety the more educational the experience is the way I really feel.

Which brings me to the point that I would like to make, there is no one perfect style for everyone. The Style I am in is right for me, but it may not be right for starchaser, MK, or some of you other guys, and what works for you may not work for me.

So why do some of you guys feel the need to put down other systems/styles? I personally think the variety of different systems is a good thing.

(all the sighs was humorous)

[wdl]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
The fastest way to find out about someone is to put forth a closed minded remark and observe the response.


Manipulative, fancy that.

Once again another reason why you can't believe 100% of what anyone tells you online unless you've met them in person know how to judge them.

-Will

[wdl]

Originally posted by wdl
Manipulative, fancy that.

Once again another reason why you can't believe 100% of what anyone tells you online unless you've met them in person know how to judge them or they come with good references.

-Will

[Judge Pen]

I sighed too when I read your post because it was a stupid post. Glad to know you have more sense about you, but I'll never pay attention to anything you post here for fear of being misled.

As far as putting down systems and styles, some people here are just plain arses. Others put down a style because of the ridiculous things said about it. That's why you should always think carefully about how you represent yourself. It reflects on your teachers whether you want it to or not.

[Brad]

Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p

[Judge Pen]

Hey Brad, how's the leg?

[wdl]

Originally posted by Brad
Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p


Style, maybe not. System yes. There is an order to it. It starts basic and works it's way from there. It's follows a typical development path like most systems do. Stances, punches, kicks etc. Basic movements then long forms. You don't get your hands on an edged weapon until about a year+ etc.

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Brad
Can Shaolin-Do really be called a style or system? It's an organization claiming to teach many different styles/systems. I just think people should stop calling Shaolin-Do a style. Anyway, that's all I've got to say for now :p

Brad, I officially give you permission to stop calling Shaolin-Do a style, system and any other name that you don't care for. Consider it a late Christmas present.........ho ho ho

[Starchaser107]

from what I have seen of shaolin-do I would say it classifies as a style. Even based on the statement that it is an "organization" that teaches various styles. There is a codified way of movement that unifies everything under the umbrella od s-d and makes it different from the systems themselves.
In other words, for example the way s-d does "long fist" is similar in s-d circles, but different enough from the way other places that do long fist to consider how s-d does it a style.
this is just from my observation of course.

[cho]

It most definitely is a style and system. Its origins are just not what they claim to be, and that's what bugs everyone.

[Brad]

I see everyones points, but does teaching another style really badly classify it as a style on its own? From what I've observed the different styles that they teach are supposed to have their own unique properties and training methods. I guess there's some things within Shaolin-Do that are unique to Shaolin-Do(some stuff in the basic training probably, like their short forms, and some other forms like "10,000 bees attack" (which I'm dying to see, by the way ;)). With the taiji and chang quan(for example), they seem to be practicing legit forms and are trying to use legit training methods... it's not another style though, it's just that their missing stuff from their systems. Guess it's all how you look at it though...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Brad
I guess there's some things within Shaolin-Do that are unique to Shaolin-Do(some stuff in the basic training probably, like their short forms, and some other forms like "10,000 bees attack" (which I'm dying to see, by the way ;)).

No one has seen that form in SD from what I gather. I'd be first in line to see that one too.

IN the older days of SD, when everyone trained directly with the The brothers I think the basics of each unqiue form and style were taught. The older guys (no offense GT and BM2) talk of training for 6 months on drills and excercies before being taught a new form. Nowadays, the teachers usually just teach to form and pay a little lip service to what distinguishes them from another form. I think that's the biggest problem with our system; people get too forms hungry (students to learn them and teachers to teach them) and never focus on the basics.

As for shortform, you are right. They are the fundamental "spine" of SD as a system or style or whatever you want to define it as.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
I think that's the biggest problem with our system; people get too forms hungry (students to learn them and teachers to teach them) and never focus on the basics.In my system I've got 2 1/3 forms in 2 1/3 years. Haven't learnt anything new in 10mths or so. We mostly just drill and spar.

[shen ku]

JP you are all to right about people getting form hungry,
but i do try to attend all of GM SIN's seminars if for no other reason that to get togather with like minded people,
but no matter how many forms i learn i continue to go back to the basics. every thing i have done has always made me look back and find similar moves or tech. in the upper forms as i could see in the lower forms (just would always be a little harder version )

[oldmonkey]

Stylistic variation is more the rule than the exception, even within the same lineage.

Take Yang style T’ai Chi for example. Cheng Man Ching made changes to the form and his students represent an interesting range of stylistic variation...looking at William C.C. Chen, T. T. Liang, Robert Chuckrow, and Herman Kauz just to mention a few. That variety hasn’t diminished the art. Evolution and change is what keeps an art alive. SD is no different in this regard.

So many martial arts trace their origins to Shaolin. Just because they are different, doesn’t invalidate them. It's a strength, not a weakness.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
Stylistic variation is more the rule than the exception, even within the same lineage.

Take Yang style T’ai Chi for example. Cheng Man Ching made changes to the form and his students represent an interesting range of stylistic variation...looking at William C.C. Chen, T. T. Liang, Robert Chuckrow, and Herman Kauz just to mention a few. That variety hasn’t diminished the art. Evolution and change is what keeps an art alive. SD is no different in this regard.


Nicely put.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
So many martial arts trace their origins to Shaolin. Just because they are different, doesn’t invalidate them. There is a difference between tracing your lineage to Shaolin, which a lot of styles can certainly do, and claiming you have the complete and final Shaolin transmission as it was taught before the last Fukien burning, especially when Fukien was probably destroyed 300 or so years ago and your style looks like a *******ized version of all the other legitmate and documented styles that can rightly claim Shaolin roots. In my opinion.

[wdl]

Has anyone gotten someone that can read Indo to translate the 2000 Jurus article on GM Sin?

-Will

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

The older guys (no offense GT and BM2)

Like a fine wine.......

[oldmonkey]

MK, you say "probably destroyed"....?

When you have to qualify your opinion with words like "probably" your argument flies out the window. Probability has nothing to do with it.

What YOU think happened is limited by your imagination and your personal bias.

You don't like it. That's the sum total of your opinion. That your are suspicious only reveals that you have a suspicious nature.

It's o.k., you don't have to like it...but your hypothesis is meaningless.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by oldmonkey
MK, you say "probably destroyed"....?

When you have to qualify your opinion with words like "probably" your argument flies out the window. Probability has nothing to do with it. I said "Probably" because there is no physical evidence it even existed. Consentual history places it's destruction around 1647, but since there is no physical evidence, it can't be nailed down exactly.

At any rate, SD's claim that it was destroyed circa 1890 should be more easily verifiable...So where's the ruins...?

[Starchaser107]

what!!!?!

[MasterKiller]

That your are suspicious only reveals that you have a suspicious nature. Yeah, riiiiiight. No one outside of SD circles lends any credence to the bull**** history you try to pass off as fact. Even the REAL history about the Indonsian law banning Chinese arts doesn't fit into the SD version of the account by about 50 years or so. Every piece of history that comes out of your organization is laughable. And you wonder why people are suspicious? Maybe you're just too gullible. Or stupid. Or both.

[Judge Pen]

Wasn't there an article in KFM a few years back regarding the archeological evidence of a southern temple in Fujian? I saw a reference to that article on this forum once, but never got to read the article myself.

Also, isn't there speculation that there may have been more than one temple in Fujian?

Oldmonkey, I understood why MK qualified his statement. Several styles claim lineage to a Southern temple that may or may not have existed. Most, if not all, have the destruction of that temple occurring well before SD's history claims.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Wasn't there an article in KFM a few years back regarding the archeological evidence of a southern temple in Fujian? I saw a reference to that article on this forum once, but never got to read the article myself. Not everyone agrees that the ruins in question are indeed the fabled Fukien Temple. Some people have been very eager to jump on the claim. Others are being more reserved until all the facts are in. At any rate, the destruction of those ruins is placed well before the SD timeline.

Also, isn't there speculation that there may have been more than one temple in Fujian? There seems to be evidence that there were several smaller adjunct temples. None of them were destroyed anywhere near the timeframe SD claims, as far as I know. Whether or not they had a martial legacy is a different can of worms altogether.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Even the REAL history about the Indonsian law banning Chinese arts doesn't fit into the SD version of the account by about 50 years or so.

My e-mail correspondence with Dr. Davies who authored the article that MK keeps referring to:

From: Philip Davies
[mailto:Philip.Davies@brunel.ac.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 7:29 AM
To:[Judge Pen's private e-mail account]
Subject: FW: Kung Fu, Kung Tao, and Shaolin-Do

Dear [Judge Pen]

Thank you for your letter. I have seen some published materials about and by Mr. Sin, but can't speak with any direct knowledge of its art and its antecedents. I have, however, lived and worked in Singapore, Malaysia and spent time in Java researching the kuntao tradition in which I have trained (and have also dealt extensively with the International Pencak Silat Federation in Jakarta who are the main martial arts body in Indonesia).

First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous'
histories, as
do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today.
Some schools are
very
systematic about tracking their linneage (Cimande in West Java can trace every single teacher back to 'Mbah Khair c.1750) while other arts like Matjan Putih (White Tiger Silat) are recent recombinations of skills in which sometimes even the teacher has lost track of what he learned from whom. Indonesians and Malays view their systems as 'living arts' in which new schools, permutations and combinations come into existence while others die out. They are also less concerned with exact genealogies than East Asian traditions. And this will undoubtedly have influenced the Indonesianised 'peranakan' Chinese, as will the tendency to permutate and combine rather than preserve in aspic as it were. As a result, just about every art that came west with the post-revolutionary diaspora has some nebulosity in its background; the Kuntao Matjan of my own tradition, Carel Faulhaber (via Paatje Richard Kudding), Willem de Thouars Kuntao-Silat, the late Willem Reeders 'Royal Family' Kuntao, the late Willi Wetzel's regrettably spelled '****ao' (part of his effective but idiosyncratic 'pukulan cimande chuan fa') and even the de Thouars version of Serak all have patchy and incomplete histories, and mostly oral rather than documentary history to work from at that. This is no criticism; matters aren't a lot different in Southeast Asia either. So the Shaolin do/Sin Kwang The' situation is pretty consistent with the broader field of kuntao.

OK, now as regards the ban on Chinese arts, technically the legislation after the Generals' Coup prohibited Chinese art and literature and public displays of Chinese culture (lion dance, ghost festival &c). The actual legislation is a matter of public record, and while I do not have the legislative specifics to hand, I am sure you could get the exact legislation from a specialist Indonesianist (perhaps someone like Leo Suryadinata at the National University of Singapore who specialises in the contemporary history of the Indonesian Chinese). You could also find more specific background in my academic article on kuntao which was in the summer 2000 edition of the _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ (which, unlike KF-QG magazine, has full citations for sources in its articles). The ban on Chinese martial arts was an incidental application of legislation designed to prohibit Chinese publishing and political communication. According to O'ong Maryono, who published a good book on Pencak Silat shortly after my own articles came out, under the ban the Pencak Silat organisation tried to incorporate Chinese kung-fu within silat, but unsuccessfully.
They felt the
Chinese
were too influential within silat, while other Chinese teachers simply refused to cooperate and a lot went underground. A lot did not, however, and a lot of kuntao continued to be practiced as an 'open secret' on the don't-ask'don't-tell kind of principle. To complicate matters, some of the leading pencak silat systems established since the 1940s are openly based on kung-fu, such as Perisai Diri (Surabaya), Persai Sakti
(Semarang) and
Bangau
Putih (Bandung).

I'm not aware of any local prior bans, but it's possible that Chinese martial arts got supressed by the Japanese during their wartime occupation.
From the movements and internal history of arts like Garuda Emas Kuntao (Golden Eagle kuntao in Semarang) and the careers of leading boxers like Liu Song, Lim Tjoei Kang and Lou Ban Tang in Jakarta, Semarang and Solo it looks pretty unlikely that there was much active repression of kuntao apart from the general suppression of the Chinese on racial grounds much as one would have seen in Taiwan or Shanghai. There were, however, intermittent purges, pogroms and persecutions of the ethnic Chinese, most notable being the massacres during the anti-Chinese riots of the 1880s.

All of that being said, however, I don't really think that 'Japananising'
kung fu or calling it Shaolin Do would have deceived anybody in Indonesia.
Chinese boxing is too well known throughout the region, and most silat practitioners I know can spot Chinese styles or Chinese-influenced techniques (many will privately admit they believe Silat derives from kung fu originally), and Shaolin is a very, very well known name. A lot of arts in Java took on Japanese traits during the occupation, and after, when the high degree of Japanese martial arts organisation and the obvious power of arts like Judo and Karate set a kind of standard to which a lot of Indonesians felt they should aspire (hence Japanese-infuenced composite arts like PORBIKAWA). So the Japanisation may have been more a reflection of an endemic eclecticism than any real strategy of concealment.

Just to complicate matters further again, a lot of kuntao arts adopted Japanese characteristics when they began to be taught in the west.
This was
partly because of trying to provide an appearance that Western audiences familiar mainly with Japanese systems could relate to, and partly because Western students responded very poorly to the Indonesian and Chinese approaches to teaching basics. Teachers found westerners more interested in arts with Japanese and Korean style kicks than arcane, close-range handwork, and they found it easier to get westerners to learn long, Japanese forward steps, back-stances, kiba dachi &c than trying to get them to do Chinese horse-training (hours in static postures) or repetitive but complex Indonesian footwork drills. As a result, you find Willem Reeders building a lot of his teaching around a base of ****o Ryo karate and pictures of Kuntao Matjan students in Holland (where Japanisation was even more pronounced because of the central national role of the Judokwai) doing forward stances with Japanese-style high blocks (neither of which occur in the traditional form of the art).

I don't know if this helps at all,

Best regards,

Philip H.J. Davies

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Not everyone agrees that the ruins in question are indeed the fabled Fukien Temple. Some people have been very eager to jump on the claim. Others are being more reserved until all the facts are in. At any rate, the destruction of those ruins is placed well before the SD timeline.

There seems to be evidence that there were several smaller adjunct temples. None of them were destroyed anywhere near the timeframe SD claims, as far as I know. Whether or not they had a martial legacy is a different can of worms altogether.

Lot's of room for error and interpretation in what we do know of the southern temples. In short, it proves and "disproves" nothing.

[MasterKiller]

All of that being said, however, I don't really think that 'Japananising' kung fu or calling it Shaolin Do would have deceived anybody in Indonesia. Chinese boxing is too well known throughout the region, and most silat practitioners I know can spot Chinese styles or Chinese-influenced techniques (many will privately admit they believe Silat derives from kung fu originally), and Shaolin is a very, very well known name.I wondered why you never posted his email...until now.

[Judge Pen]

Nah, what he said was what several, including themeecer have argued was part of the gi wearing thing (convenience and familiarity for Americans). Again, I don't try to get too caught up in the history or lineage part of SD. It's unverifiable by any independent sources. If I wanted to delete that portion of the e-mail, I could have and no one but me and Dr. Davies would have known the difference. I had actually lost that e-mail and asked Radhotni to forward it to me since I had forwarded it to him. He recently did that and I posted it once the topic came back around.

Sorry MK, I've nothing to hide. :cool:

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Nah, what he said was what several, including themeecer have argued was part of the gi wearing thing (convenience and familiarity for Americans). Again, I don't try to get too caught up in the history or lineage part of SD. It's unverifiable by any independent sources. If I wanted to delete that portion of the e-mail, I could have and no one but me and Dr. Davies would have known the difference. I had actually lost that e-mail and asked Radhotni to forward it to me since I had forwarded it to him. He recently did that and I posted it once the topic came back around.

Sorry MK, I've nothing to hide. :cool: So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?

And BTW, that whole email pretty much rips the SD claim of original transmission to shreds, not just the paragraph I quoted. It lends more credence to what we've said all along--It's a hodgepodge of other styles.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?

And BTW, that whole email pretty much rips the SD claim of original transmission to shreds, not just the paragraph I quoted. It lends more credence to what we've said all along--It's a hodgepodge of other styles.

The e-mail doesn't comment on SD as a style specifically MK, just the general state of martial arts in Indonesia. Having said that, everyone who studies SD admits it's a patchwork art comprising several styles of CMA. If it was mixed with Japanese techniques no one in the art is saying it. I don't know; I'm nobody in SD, but I am a student who asks questions. Maybe SD mixed karate into it, maybe it only borrowed some of the trappings. No doubt it's history is nebelous which isn't uncommon with any martial art that came through Indonesia.

"First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous'
histories, as
do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today."

As for the bans:

"I'm not aware of any local prior bans, but it's possible that Chinese martial arts got supressed by the Japanese during their wartime occupation"

And for SD's official story regarding hiding the arts:

"According to O'ong Maryono, who published a good book on Pencak Silat shortly after my own articles came out, under the ban the Pencak Silat organisation tried to incorporate Chinese kung-fu within silat, but unsuccessfully.
They felt the
Chinese
were too influential within silat, while other Chinese teachers simply refused to cooperate and a lot went underground. A lot did not, however, and a lot of kuntao continued to be practiced as an 'open secret' on the don't-ask'don't-tell kind of principle."

Maybe it didn't fool anyone like it's said today. Maybe the officials didn't care, but Master Ie thought they did. I don't know. I prefer to talk about technique because much of this stuff is unprovable one way or the other.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
"First off, let me say a couple of things to give some wider context. A lot of the Indonesian systems brought to the west have 'nebulous' histories, as do arts practiced commonly in Southeast Asia today."

You left off the good part:

while other arts like Matjan Putih (White Tiger Silat) are recent recombinations of skills in which sometimes even the teacher has lost track of what he learned from whom. Indonesians and Malays view their systems as 'living arts' in which new schools, permutations and combinations come into existence while others die out. They are also less concerned with exact genealogies than East Asian traditions. And this will undoubtedly have influenced the Indonesianised 'peranakan' Chinese, as will the tendency to permutate and combine rather than preserve in aspic as it were.

Which would explain why it appears Sin The' keeps adding new forms to the curriculum that more than likely weren't there when he was originially training (24-step Yang is obvious, but I have a feeling he's been adding a whole lot more than he lets on or you guys are willing to admit.) It also implies the "900 forms" thing is just a pretty convenient cover story to mask this practice.

Which shoots a big hole in the "original transmission" theory as well.

[Judge Pen]

I didn't leave off anything MK. I pasted the e-mail in it's entirety! :p

No one denies that Yang 24 was picked up and taught to SDs students because Sin The wanted us to know the most popular form of Tai Chi. GT said that he was there when Sin The first taught it out. (Again you keep accusing us of hiding stuff that we are not).

As for other stuff, it's been mentioned before: there were several teachers other than Ie Chang Ming. We don't know who taught what in Indonesia. We don't know what, if anything, was picked up later. I don't know and you don't know.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I have a feeling he's been adding a whole lot more than he lets on or you guys are willing to admit.

No offense, but your feelings aren't a big concern of mine. I like you logicial arguments though.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
(Again you keep accusing us of hiding stuff that we are not).
Well, I was thinking more like the Chen fan form...even though Chen has no fan form. Those kinds of things.
No offense, but your feelings aren't a big concern of mine.None taken. It's not like I give a hoot about anyone's feelings here either. It's just the internet.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know if Chen has a fan form. Fan forms are common though. I have a fan form and I was told it was Chen. . . . . maybe it's not. Maybe it is something that a Chen guy in Indoneisa made up one day and taught it to Ie's students. Maybe Sin The made it up altogether. Maybe it was lost. I don't know. To be fair, you don't know either; you just know that no one in Chen's lineage claims to have a fan form. Does that mean that the form was stolen, made up by Sin The? Made up by someone else? Forgotten by someone? I don't know. I don't pretend to know.

I do know that it's a good form; not my favorite, but good applications for that type of weapon.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
you just know that no one in Chen's lineage claims to have a fan form. Well, it's not like Chen Taiji is 1,000 years old and went through 6 temple burnings or anything. The lineage is easily traced and verifiable.

[Judge Pen]

Ok. So it was either forgotten/lost or created outside the official lineage. (I don't know which). I do know it's not uncommon for students of a style, once they reach a certain level, to create forms using the principles of that style. New forms are being created now in style with very respectable lineages. Is this what happend with SD (either by Sin The or by someone else in the system? With this fan form? I don't know, maybe. Maybe not.

[MasterKiller]

I don't argue with that. People make up forms all the time. I've made up forms for some of my students to perform at shows. I also make sure they know I made it up for them. Leading them to believe otherwise would be dishonest. Paying for a ceremony at Chen village to disguise that dishonesty would be flat out pathetic.

[Judge Pen]

Paying for a ceremony? I thought that was at Henan for the tablet.

[norther practitioner]

I do Clark family kung fu and taiji at every tourney....;)

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
Paying for a ceremony? I thought that was at Henan for the tablet.

Nah ... it was paid for & placed at the wrong location. Big hubub about it...

[AndyM]

Is it just me, or does this guy resemble Dubbya?

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/JMooney.jpg

[serene_dragon]

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So who came up with the lamo story about Ie changing everything to Japanese to fool the Indonesians, then? If you guys tell a different story internally, that it was for Western convienence, why does SD tell a different story externally, that it's to honor Ie's struggle to maintain the Shaolin arts while being persecuted?
__________________________________________________ _

My opinion of this statement

Take 5 people and teach them a kata or tell them a story at the same time and have them perform that kata or tell that story at a later date. Time and time again you will see that there will be differences in the way the kata are performed and the story are told.

This is the way it is in all teaching I suspect.

As an instructor, I see it all the time. The students who do perform the katas the way they was taught is the students you look at to pass on the teachings when their time comes.

I know how I was told the stories go by my instructor and by GM The', and I also know I have heard many different versions of the same stories from other people in the art. I have no concrete proof of who is right or who is wrong. I am not going to argue about it. I am more worried about the training I get than if all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed in the history.(I am very satisfied with the training)

This is just my opinion

[shen ku]

JP ya there is a tablet in chen village to master sin , and as sean_stonehart said it was paid for by many of the shaolin-do masters, and it was not made as it was ordered and it was not placed where they had been told it would be and some people were ****ed off over it,
and on the chen fan i do remember that at chen village master sin and ? a chen family member?? spoke of that in their linage there had been a fan form and he pointed and a chart of the family as to show at what time it was not passed on, and JP if you get the chance go on one of the china trips with master sin ,trust me you will enjoy it!!

just don't ride the buses in tebit , ask sean_stonehart?

[serene_dragon]

Shen Ku

You went to China with GM Sin The'. Did you vistit any temples or Shaolin schools while you was there?

If you did there might be a few people reading this thread who are interested in knowing how the masters in the temples treated Grandmaster Sin The'. If they showed him respect as a Grandmaster or if they treated him like just another martial artist visiting the temples.

Maybe you could put your thoughts on the subject.

I only ask because I see some people who have a passion about trying to discredit Grandmaster Sin The' and his teachings.

I am curious as to where this passion comes from, is it people who have been removed from this system who is trying to discredit it or is it just jealousy. Who knows it could be anything.
But I would like to hear your thoughts because you was there.

[norther practitioner]

or is it just jealousy.

some should do some searches through the archives.... granted some of it is drivel, and some of it is not.

[serene_dragon]

I am curious as to where this passion comes from, is it people who have been removed from this system who is trying to discredit it or is it just jealousy. Who knows it could be anything.
______________________________________________

I dont mean to imply that it could only be these two reasons if anyone took it that way.

[Judge Pen]

Sure, Sean, wait until I'm on a 3 hour trip to respond! :D

[shen ku]

serene_dragon, there are others on here that were on the same trip as i was,and i saw one event one way and they now believe ( after leaving SD on their own, they were not kicked out from what i understand ) that it was meant in a hole different way, so you see ,as others have said , just like a form or a story all things even when seen at the same time may send each person away with a different opinion of the events and what was meant by each persons actions,

[Fred Sanford]

All I have to say about shaolin-do is that it is a very nice style of karate. I'm impressed, really I am.

[shen ku]

JP did you find anything on the nashville school

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
All I have to say about shaolin-do is that it is a very nice style of karate. I'm impressed, really I am.

Thanks Fred. I appreciate any compliment coming from you.

SK, not yet man. I've been swamped, but I'll get you something this week.

[Radhnoti]

I think that Dr. Davies' e-mail was very supportive of the idea that shaolin-do should be classified as kuntao...

Of course that's been a pet theory of mine, and I may be biased.

From a Willem De Thouars website:

"Kun Tao goes back to ancient China, so it is accurately a Chinese art, but both Chinese and indigenous people in Southeast Asia have practiced and adopted it as their own. And the old men who were trained in what they see as the "pure art" have seen it sanitized and changed; it literally doesn't exist in its original state in China anymore."

This is EXACTLY the attitude that's been passed down (in my opinion) in Shaolin-do. "We have the REAL stuff, no pointless but pretty junk!"
It's not a shaolin-do specific attitude, it's common in kuntao.

Also, to be fair, not all SD teachers seem to have inherited this attitude of superiority, but I've heard enough of them talk to know that MANY have.

Again, just my opinion...backed by a few years experience and research. :eek: :D

[serene_dragon]

SK
"A man looking for trouble is not much of a problem for someone who is ready for him"
If you know where you heard this statement then you know who I am. Give me a call when you read this

[Golden Tiger]

Originally posted by serene_dragon
Shen Ku

You went to China with GM Sin The'. Did you vistit any temples or Shaolin schools while you was there?

If you did there might be a few people reading this thread who are interested in knowing how the masters in the temples treated Grandmaster Sin The'. If they showed him respect as a Grandmaster or if they treated him like just another martial artist visiting the temples.


Out of curiosity, I went back and watched the meeting between Master Sin and the Head Abbot when the marker was placed. While most of the speaking was done by the guy from Chinese Tourism, there was a speech given by the head disiple written by the Abbot. It spoke of Shaolin being the birthplace of MA, how they wanted it to spread all over the world, yada yada yada...... The group and the monks exchanged a gift, Master Sin said a few words and that was it.

A couple of observations that I made were:

1. A large group was assembled to meet with and celebrate the placing of the marker (yes, paid for by the group).
2. The head Abbot, obviously not in the best of health due to Parkinson's (or it appeared to be that) was there along with a few of the senior monks.

So what comes to mind is this..... Master Sin and the "style" he promotes seemed not to pi$$ off those at the temple. He was treated with respect and was greeted by the ailing Head Abbot. I wonder if that is standard practice when other tourist show up? Sure, you could say that we "rented" a photo op with the HA but due to his health.....I am not sure.

It has also been said that the monks smiled while laughing under their breath at the demo our group did. That really wouldn't suprise me given the fact that it was made up of those that could afford the trip (ie. actually worked for a living and weren't professional MA's). What they didn't do is boo them off the floor for the so-so performance or the *******ization of CMA...one could argue respect or good manners.

So, "we" have visited the authority on Shaolin MA, didn't get shot at or arrested for what we did, what we claim or who we were, and are still going strong today.

I can live with that.......

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Golden Tiger
Out of curiosity, I went back and watched the meeting between Master Sin and the Head Abbot when the marker was placed. While most of the speaking was done by the guy from Chinese Tourism, there was a speech given by the head disiple written by the Abbot. It spoke of Shaolin being the birthplace of MA, how they wanted it to spread all over the world, yada yada yada...... The group and the monks exchanged a gift, Master Sin said a few words and that was it.

Yep... saw that video too. Saw the same things.


Originally posted by Golden Tiger

A couple of observations that I made were:

1. A large group was assembled to meet with and celebrate the placing of the marker (yes, paid for by the group).
2. The head Abbot, obviously not in the best of health due to Parkinson's (or it appeared to be that) was there along with a few of the senior monks.


1 -- Yep.
2 -- Yep.

Originally posted by Golden Tiger

So what comes to mind is this..... Master Sin and the "style" he promotes seemed not to pi$$ off those at the temple. He was treated with respect and was greeted by the ailing Head Abbot. I wonder if that is standard practice when other tourist show up? Sure, you could say that we "rented" a photo op with the HA but due to his health.....I am not sure.


Of course he was treated with respect. Most anybody is treated with respect when you drop $$$$ on a place like that. We had a Q&A session & photo op in 2001 with YongXin. Close to 90 Westerners coming in... dropping lots of $$$$ not once, but often. You get a little better than the normal Joe stopping in by the temple.

Originally posted by Golden Tiger

It has also been said that the monks smiled while laughing under their breath at the demo our group did. That really wouldn't suprise me given the fact that it was made up of those that could afford the trip (ie. actually worked for a living and weren't professional MA's). What they didn't do is boo them off the floor for the so-so performance or the *******ization of CMA...one could argue respect or good manners.


Yep... I would guess that they appreciated the effort put in by anybody to study MA, but good manners does go a long way in this world.

Originally posted by Golden Tiger

So, "we" have visited the authority on Shaolin MA, didn't get shot at or arrested for what we did, what we claim or who we were, and are still going strong today.

I can live with that.......

Well... there have been visits made to Shaolin, to Dengfeng, to Xiamen, to Chen Village, to Xian, to Wudang, etc... to be sure. Well documented & covered. There has been lots of speeches by gov't & local officials on how happy they were Master Sin & the groups were there. There have been lots of photo ops with all sorts of people at these locations, even coverage on Chinese National TV. I'm sure in the big picture the money brought in by Master Sin wouldn't be missed, but why **** off a continued source of income. They give a little face to Master Sin & everybody is happy. It just speaks of good manners. It also good economic practices on their parts.

I can live with that too...

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by shen ku
JP did you find anything on the nashville school

Here's what was sent to me from a friend who had saved the infromation from the old SDA site. It should still be current:

Nashville Shaolin-do

Donelson-Hermitage YMCA
3001 Lebanon Road
Nashville, TN 37214
(615) 889-2632

Head Instructor: Ernest McClain (2nd Degree Black Belt)
Assistant Instructors: Manuel J. Roman (1st Degree Black Belt), Bob Threadgill (1st Degree Black Belt), Russ Cameron (1st Degree Black Belt)

Classes held Tuesday & Thursday nights
Children - 6:15 to 7:30 pm
Adults - 7:30 to 8:30 pm

[wdl]

I'm pretty sure that's the right phone number, but I don't think he's at the Y out there anymore. I could however be wrong. I'm almost positive he's changed locations in the past year. For alittle while I don't think he had a location.

-Will

[shen ku]

JP thanks alot, its good to talk with others within SD and to know that others feel the same about their training again thanks

[MonkeySlap Too]

All of this is fine and good, but how do you explain how devoid of actual CMA usage Shaolin-Do is? Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them? Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

It's okay to feel 'good' about yourselves and others who are 'in' the SD group. But it in no way validates SD as a CMA.

I'm sure Jim Jones's followers were sure they were just misunderstood by those pesky outsiders.

Of course, no one would really care if Sin The' didn't make such outrageous claims.

[themeecer]

All of this is fine and good, but how do you explain how devoid of actual CMA usage Shaolin-Do is? Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them? Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

You know what .. I started a post detailing what I thought about your opinion and gave up on it. Apparently you find meaning in your life by belittling others and their art. If that makes you feel good, then wonderful. Thank you for the compliment of me doing millions of styles .. I'm really flattered. Kind of creeped out as well .... not sure how you found my school and was able to spy on my classes without me noticing you. Had you paid attention you would see that I personally don't focus on "millions" of styles, I focus on 2 and am incorporating a third one. I know what I study and teach. I have compared what I do to old clips of masters (with your oh so coveted printed lineage) and found it exactly the way I was taught and teach as well. I must have stumbled onto the mechanics somehow because contrary to what you say my mechanics have been tested and proved to be more than adequate. Bah … not a big fan of this web fu crap. Carry on.

Edit: And right now I am much more ticked at the pizza line coward video I saw, than with you SD detractors.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Hey, sorry your feelings are hurt. I'm not out to 'belittle' anybody. I'm just calling it as I see it. I've 'tasted' SD first hand. It's not CMA. It's not even very good. Just my opinion, but hey, it's an educated one. There hasn't been one good defense of Sin The's claims, or an example of 'good' SD (even that clip of Sin looked exactly like the Atlanta folks everyone in SD turned on.)

Remember, idiot testing does not count when validating an art.

I wouldn't really care, but you guys are lieing the public claiming these 'styles' when in fact you do Karate. Heck, if you called in 'Syncretic Indonesian Karate-Kun Tao' I wouldn't care. But calling it the 'true' Shaolin, and claiming Xing-yi, etc.etc. when honestly, the Xing-yi is hilarious, you've got to question what you are doing. If not in content, at least in ethics.

[Brad]

Doing something poorly doesn't automatically make it "karate".

[Golden Tiger]

Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them?

I would be more than happy to discuss the mechanics used in any of the styles that SD teaches. All you have to do is ask.


Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

I have seen many forms done by both and while we don't have the flowery, dance-like movents of wushu, we certianly don't move like the karateka either.



Of course, no one would really care if Sin The' didn't make such outrageous claims.

While I haven't been able to keep up with his schedule lately, I do know that he will be in Ky. in the month of March. MS duex, you are invited to come down and ask him about these claims person to person. Heck, I'll even put you up at my house. I have the extra room.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd be happy too, although I am in busy season during March. Anything available in late fall? Can you cover air-fare as well? I'm not that interested to spend the money myself, as it seems more for your edification than mine. I'm a gracious guest, and really do get on well people, even those I disagree with.

Or - I am hosting "Silat-A-Palooza" a get together for West Javanese martial arts in San Jose this November. PM me your e-mail, I'll send details.

Or - I'll be at a ACSCA Combat Shuai Chiao tournament in Chicago with a team of fighters. These are friendly competitions, usually devoid of the chest-beating you'll see at some fights. I can even arrange crash-space in Chicago. You'll get to meet some great CMA folks, and if you like take part in informal free-fighting sessions. No tropihies, no awards, just practice against people from around the country. All school welcome.

As far as the mechanics go - where do I start? Everything looks the same in SD. Everything looks like Karate mechanics. The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

BRAD: No, I'm just commenting that their movements look like Karate, one-step sparring and all. I find the 'no flowery motions' rationale very funny, as it reinforces my position.

[themeecer]

The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

[Fu-Pow]

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

Actually, Shaolin Center used to have a "Hsing-Yi" video up.

Unfortunately, they took down all their neat-o vids. They do have a bang up list of new DVDs available.....with some trailers available!

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/videos.html

Have fun kids!

Also, I came across the lineage and I noticed that they've dropped the hairy guy out of the lineage. In addition, a "grandmaster" and "master" are now higher in rank than a "sifu." Who'd a thunk it?

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage.html

[MonkeySlap Too]

Meecer, this is the problem with you guys - what you think it should look like is not relevant. If I said my BJJ looks pretty good I'll get laughed out of town by the BJJers, as I'm only imitating it. If you don't what something is in the first place, it's hard to be a competant judge of it. Peer review, my friend.

Now admittedly there is a wide variety of Xing Yi out there, some more sophisticated than others - but one thing every Xing-Yi guy I know agrees on - what was on that Atlanta site ain't Xing-Yi.

I've met some SD guys - from first hand experience I can tell you - it ain't Xing-Yi. Go post some files over at Empty Flower - don't tell them it's SD. See what happens.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Look,
I'm also a teacher of KTS DeThouras. It's a hodge podge art. I wrestled with some of things stated about the source material, but it worked, so I did not care. However, when encountering some pretty sophisticated Xing-Yi players - they could see the links to thier art that I did not see. But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

[themeecer]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.
Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)

Sorry.
No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

[lxtruong]

For some reason I find that martial artists are overall some of the nosiest bunch I've ever seen. Why should anyone care anything about anyone else's style? Heck, I find that even at the dojo everyone is always up in everyone's business. Head down and keep on punching and kicking, that's my policy.

On a totally unrelated note, I just learned Dragon Hsing-Ie last thursday and it pwns me. I suck.

[Golden Tiger]

MS2,

I can only say that along with the things I was taught, I was(am) able to generate power, root myself, absorb and deflect (some) energy and do other things asscoiated with the styles I have been shown. Correct or not, it has worked well for me over the past 30 years.

As for your invitation, thanks for the offer. I do get out to the left coast ocassionally also to Chicago so I might try to take you up on your offer. I'll pm you if it looks like a go. As for competing, I gave that up many years ago but a friendly exchange of information would be nice.


Fu-Pow:

Thanks for the link. I rarely go to that site since there was a parting of the ways a while back. It is interesting that that school decided to remove Su Kong from the lineage. It is also interesting that that school was the one that wanted to change uniforms to the frog button ones. Perhaps the pressure to "fit in" as a CMA is guiding their discissions...who know?

[Jhapa]

dammn, when will this die.................

from what i have seen, SD ba gua(or pa kua) is not even good, poor form, it's all rushed, well what i have seen here in Texas. my schools head instructor's teacher is taught buy elder master leonard, so what he is taught is trickled down to us. the forms that are taught are rushed, you learn it so you can get to the next level. the classes are only an hour long and for the 1st 15 minutes we are doing warm ups and only work on forms for about 20 to 30 minutes. also, why is all instructors called sifu/shifu, i thought only the head instructor is supposed to be called sifu.

[MonkeySlap Too]

GT - my active competition days are over too... but this is a 'friendly' environment to try new stuff out on resisting opponents..

But if your ever out NorthLeft, give me a PM. If I'm around, Beer is on me. I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

[MonkeySlap Too]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.

REPLY: You'll find it looks exactly like all the other SD I've seen, including Sin The's.

Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)

REPLY: So you've learned it somewhere else?

No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

[Judge Pen]

I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

My gf at the time ended up hanging with me in San Fran and, truth be told, I'd would of rather hung out with you even though I was in no physical condition to dispel any of your ideas of SD. Still can't, but I'm working on it (knee is still healing and all). As for core training, I've said it before, it's the short forms. We spend the longest time on them and they introduce the majority of techniques that are found, with variations, in later forms. As for the "one-step" sparring and sparring techniques, I've always considered these to be drills to isolate techniques from forms: Nothing more. Drilling isn't the exclusive purview of karate, imo.

Jhapa, you are 100% correct. Most forms are rushed and taught sloppily. It's a problem that most SD (my own school included at times) can fall into. GT learned at a different time when they didn't learn as much material and didn't rush through it, so his opinion always has my ear (even the things we don't always see eye to eye on).

And Meece, the Hsing-I clip was of Master Reid. It was linkage. It was the same form as I know, move for move, but I could quibble about the power generation in that clip. But, then again, Master Reid is a very large man and very quick for his size. I have no doubt he could wipe the floor with me.

[Judge Pen]

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

Yep, you were one of the few here to not fuss about that point with SD as well as note that the story about the Indonesian prosecution could be plausible. And while I could criticize much of Atlanta's forms, there were an equal number that I could not criticize (some of the criticisms were as much or more about the peopel performing them than the way the material was passed down). . . . So I really can't say much to your criticisms. I can share my techniques with you if we ever meet up (with a disclaimer as to what techniques I can't do correctly anyway) and see what your opinions are. If you think it's junk CMA/IMA/JMA then so be it. I'm confident that I can make it work for me against the majority of people out there, but I have no delusions of fighting a MA who trains to fight competitively. I just don't train with that intensity.

One day, I'd love to have some friendly sparring with your group though. That would be fun.

[Fu-Pow]

Look,
But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

That's the crux of the whole matter.

[Golden Tiger]

MS2,

I would have to echo what JP said about our core training. The short forms. They train you in power, mechanics, speed and stances. Those, in my humble opinion, are the core of any MA. In SD, thats why they are drilled, drilled and drilled some more. Once you have a good understanding on those principles, they can be applied to whatever else you may learn.

As for SD of today vs. the SinThe' Karate Club of yesterday (when I got most of my training), things are very different. Having been around for a longggggg time, I have seen a lot of changes take place. Some good, some bad. I have to agree with who ever said that now things are done too quick and sloppy. Forms are taught in a day now that used to be spread out over weeks, months and years. For what ever reasons (even I have my suspicions) of late there has been a push to teach out as many forms as can be taught and with that, the level of understanding has gone down hill. But, its not my schools, style, system so I have little control over that. Hopefully what will happen is that it will be taught, a few will pick some that interest them the most and in time, they will pick it apart and become good at it. I have my favorites and of those, I feel very confident of. There are also some that I have learned that I could care less about.

So, pick on SD all you want. Heck, thats the only reason I read this board most of the time.

[Judge Pen]

Eventually I intend to stop learning new material and pick 10 or so empty hand forms (and a few weapon forms for fun) to focus on. My first teacher was a 4th when he passed away and it's a goal of mine to attain that rank before I stop learning new forms.

GT, I only wish I was around when you all did all the drilling and unique excercises for months prior to learning a new form.

[MasterKiller]

Eventually I intend to stop learning new material and pick 10 or so empty hand forms (and a few weapon forms for fun) to focus on.
I love only having 10 hand sets. I practice the same 10 every work out, and then move on to drilling and sparring. I quit learning new sets about 4 years ago. I know those 10 sets backwards and forwards. I could do them in my sleep. Consequently, I can use the applications when I spar.

[Golden Tiger]

Back then (and not to get into the "In my day" mode) there wasn't that much out there so there was no hurry to finish one so you could learn the next. Master Sin was very good at teaching the form and the background and VERY good at making us do it over and over and over. Mainly, we were just there to get in shape, learn to fight and weren't that interested in new stuff. When it came along, it was a bonus. Interestingly, a guy told me once that there were 3 people that he respected when it came to sparring out of a roomfull or 20 or so. He named X,Y,Z (I made the cut yiipppeeee). Of the 3, all had been around back in the old days but only one was upper rank. The other two had come and gone and come back a few times over. He went on to say that although they had never injured him, when they hit or kicked, it was solid. When they grabbed him, he was got. If he tried to move them, they were rooted. I wish he had said it to the whole class. Perhaps then it would have elicited a change in the focus. Perhaps not. My advice.....even if you are learning a crap art (SD excluded), focus on the basics. A strong house has to have a stronger foundation.

Somewhere along the line, the attitudes of the students changed. Not so much those under Master Sin at his school but of those else where. Perhaps it was a case of the teachers needing to provide quantity over quality (when and who should teach has been discussed before). Its funny. Back then, some whined about never learning something new and now they whine about learning too much. I think mainly people just like to whine.

[Judge Pen]

I love only having 10 hand sets. I practice the same 10 every work out, and then move on to drilling and sparring. I quit learning new sets about 4 years ago. I know those 10 sets backwards and forwards. I could do them in my sleep. Consequently, I can use the applications when I spar.

There are a few forms that I am this way on now, but it's only a very small percertage of the forms that I know.

GT, yeah, I guess I do whine about learning too many forms, but it's because I'm afraid that I'm too sloppy with them because I don't have time to perfect all of them.

[Brad]

Back to the xingyi form for a second...

If I remember correctly, it's a slightly modified legit xingyi form itself but done in a very "un-xingyi" like manner. I think, externally, it's nearly identical to the linking form from "Li Tianji's Skill of Xingyiquan" book (Li Tianji is considered the father of standardized taiji quan, which I think I might have mentioned earlier in this thread). It did give me the feel of how xingyi would be done if a longtime McDojo karate or Tae Kwon Do person learned the film from video. And having met people who did this and trained in a place that did this before, I DO have something to compare it too :D I did like it better than all the other clips on the page in that he was one of the few who I thought, "If he hit me it would probably hurt" and he had some quickness in his form to go along with his strength. With him being a former pro football player though, I'd be shocked if he looked like the others. It takes a lot of athleticism and a strong work ethic to reach that level :)

A lot of the SD forms that I've seen are perfectly legitimate CMA forms underneath, but often it looks like it's been modified just enough with extra(or missing) movement to make it difficult to spot unless you're familiar with the original form.

I pretty sure all this has been said before (over and over and over), but I really don't have anything more interesting to do at the moment :D

I'd really like to see video of what some consider the "core" forms done by "old timers" that you guys basically agree are high quality. Don't you guys ever get frustrated that all people see online are the lesser quality schools? At least that's the vibe I seem to get.

[wdl]

I did like it better than all the other clips on the page in that he was one of the few who I thought, "If he hit me it would probably hurt" and he had some quickness in his form to go along with his strength. With him being a former pro football player though, I'd be shocked if he looked like the others. It takes a lot of athleticism and a strong work ethic to reach that level :)


I've fought with him as ring center, and yeah, he's a big guy. I'm not huge, but I'm not a little guy either, I'm 6'1 200, and he made me feel little when I squared off to fight. I've also seen him demo several times and I really think he was almost walking through the form in that clip. He can get way more intense than what he is in that clip.

Alot of the Atlanta videos I've got mixed feelings about, especially videos I've got the material from, but that's neither here nor there and none of my business really. Maybe they took the videos after class and were all tired or something, who knows.

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

A word about forms and styles....

Coming from a style (Choy Lay Fut) that has many, many forms (I think my current personal count is around 30 hand and weapons sets. ) I don't think there is as big of an issue with knowing too many forms. As long as they overlap and work together.

The big problem I see with Shaolin-Do (and I've probably said it before!) is that they are learning a curriculum not just of many forms, but many forms from different styles.

Hua Chuan, Xing Yi, Preying Mantis, Tai Chi Chuan, Tiger and Crane, etc.

All of these styles train different Jins, Attitudes, Strategies. How can you learn them all and apply them effectively?

Just to give you an idea. My first school taught Hung Ga (a predominantly short fist style) and Choy Lay Fut (a predominantly long fist style).

The result: Hung Ga that is too big and Choy Lay Fut that is too small.

And that's just with two closely related Southern Chinese styles!

When you are doing a curriculum that is a huge compendium of different styles from all over China what do you end up with?

In kung fu circles we call schools like Shaolin-Do "Chop Suey." Just like the Chinese dish of the same name..... it is composed of bits and pieces of different stuff and the end result doesn't taste all that good.

Kung fu is about mastery of form but also about the deeper underlying Jin (ie. body mechanic) that supports the form. Also, the attitude and strategy of the style.

When you are learning many different styles in a short amount of time how can you develop the correct Jin and Attitude to support the form? How can you apply the moves effectively in free sparring without the correct Jin or Attitude?

Answer: you can't.

And that is where I see the whole "concept" of Shaolin-Do failing miserably.

[Judge Pen]

It's a good argument Fu Pow. It is certainly a danger in learning pieces of more than one style. However, several schools (for right or wrong; for good or bad) teach conflicting styles. Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.). Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together even though they are very different, albeit complimentary, styles. Now not all of these schools are bad. Not all of them are good either.

[MasterKiller]

Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.). Most schools don't integrate the Taiji into the Kung Fu. It's usually two separate programs. In fact, I don't know any that teach them together. I mean, I took math classes in college, but they weren't mixed into my Lit classes.

Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together Says who?

[Judge Pen]

http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/phist.html

I have read this account from other books on the subject depending on the lineage.

And most SD schools have a seperate Tai Chi class too. It's not until the advanced ranks are you required to learn tai chi as part of the normal curriculim.

[Fu-Pow]

I Hsing-Ie and Pa Kua are traditionally taught together even though they are very different, albeit complimentary, styles.

Despite what MK said I think that is actually quite common.

Most schools have a Tai Chi curiculim no matter what the underlying style is: CLF, long fist, hung gar, mantis etc.).

I think the reason for that is not to teach another style. It's that many of the so called "external" styles have lost their "internal" teachings. The result is an imbalance of Yang energy. Kung fu teachers see Tai Chi is a way to regain the mind/body balance. Most of the people that teach Taiji as an adjunct to an "external" kung fu style do not understand the martial application of Taiji very well. That see is more as a "health exercise" that compliments their kung fu. At least this has been my experience.

Now not all of these schools are bad. Not all of them are good either.

That's a very good point. And I think part of what makes them "good" or "bad" is how much they can diffferentiate between styles. The catch 22 however is that you have to understand the styles that you are teaching independently VERY WELL in order to keep them separate.

To use myself as an example, I learn Chen Taji from an expert in Chen Taiji. I learn CLF from an expert in Choy Lay Fut. When I try to use Taiji Jin in Choy Lay Fut I get reprimanded from my Choy Lay Fut teacher. When I try to use Choy Lay Fut Jin in Taiji I get knocked down by my Taiji teacher.

Some day I think that I could teach Chen Taiji AND Choy Lay Fut but only because I have taken the time to learn from SPECIALISTS in each of these styles and I am learning to appreciate the differences.

If I have my own school or organization someday I would make students decide. Do you want to do the Choy Lay Fut track or the Chen Taiji track? They would become specialists in one of these styles but not try to learn both at the same time as I have done because it can lead to a lot of confusion. (Kind of hypocritical, I know but I know from experience that it is difficult to pick up even two arts at once.) Once they have mastery over Choy Lay Fut or Taiji (after years and years of training) then they can go back and pick up aspects of the other art as learning something new can often reveal new aspects of something old.

As I understand it your typical Shaolin Do student is learning from teachers that are not "specialists" in any of the styles that they are teaching. They were not even trained by specialists in the style. Its like a viscious cycle, one generation to the next, until the styles kind of mush into a Cop Suey art.

You see what I'm saying?

Each generation of Shaolin-Do becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. Until you can no longer read the distinct words on the page.

I think thats what is partially upsetting kung fu people about Shaolin-Do. They have worked so hard to preserve and pass on a certain flavor or style of martial arts and they worry it will be lost once it passes into the hands of Chop Suey artists.

Sorry for the all the food analogies I must be getting hungry...almost lunch time! ;)

[Golden Tiger]

Don't you guys ever get frustrated that all people see online are the lesser quality schools? At least that's the vibe I seem to get.

Not really....I get more frustrated at the schools that post the videos. :(


And Fu, as sad as it makes me, I have to agree with many of the points you made. D*mn, that hurt.

[sean_stonehart]

Not really....I get more frustrated at the schools that post the videos. :(

Why? They're trying to generate interest & business in the community. Can't fault anybody for that.

However, if there's a discrepancy between the way "A" does set "X" & "B" does set "X" & "A" is supposed to have the correct version, why not show everybody that has seen "B" doing the set, how it's supposed to be done??

[wdl]

Each generation of Shaolin-Do becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. Until you can no longer read the distinct words on the page.


Fu, you make good points and most of them I agree with. Sadly it isn't just Shaolin-Do that becomes like a photocopy of a photocopy and so on.

-Will

[Radhnoti]

Not to jump on any kind of bandwagon here...but I think Fu-Pow was right on with his critique.

Adam Hsu makes similar points in some of his stuff I've read, and (if I recall correctly) he too says that even though he learned different styles at the same time he won't do the same with his students.

[Judge Pen]

Fu hit the nail on the head. :eek:

And Sean, I know what you are saying. I'm afraid that some people don't want the scrutiny.

[Fu-Pow]

Sorry to bring down the harshers on you guys. :(

It's not just Shaolin Do! There are many students of martial arts (some on this board) who jump around from style to style, never fully learning any one style.

The difference is that Shaolin Do has institutionalized this kind of learning and so becomes an easy target.

Here's the thing guys....the "viscious cycle" that I describe can end with YOU.

You SD guys could pick one (or two) style(s) that you are most interested in learning from what you've already learned.

Find out who the best teachers are and focus on becoming an expert in that one style.

If you are in an area that is lacking in teachers you might look at traveling and/or attending seminars that are in your area. I know of at least a few students that have become disciples that live nowhere near there teachers.

They learned by visiting and attending seminars and then visiting infrequently for corrections and such.

I'm not saying give up SD completely. If that's the best thing in your area then stick with it for the mean time.

But your goal should be to exceed your current teacher's knowledge in any ONE of the smattering of arts that you are currently learning.

Peace guys. :D

[wdl]

The difference is that Shaolin Do has institutionalized this kind of learning and so becomes an easy target.

Here's the thing guys....the "viscious cycle" that I describe can end with YOU.

You SD guys could pick one (or two) style(s) that you are most interested in learning from what you've already learned.

Find out who the best teachers are and focus on becoming an expert in that one style.

They learned by visiting and attending seminars and then visiting infrequently for corrections and such.


It's not exactly institutionalized because everyone is encouraged to specialize in something, generally speaking around here atleast(can't speak for other SD areas). Mostly once they've hit first black(about 3.5 years in).

I plan to do something similiar to what you describe. Once I decide what I like and what I want to focus on, I want to expose myself to as many different opinions on the subject as possible and deeply study and analyze it. Visiting, seminars, crossings hands, etc are all part of what I want to do.

-Will

[sean_stonehart]

Fu hit the nail on the head. :eek:

I know... I've been avoiding acknowledging it... ;)


And Sean, I know what you are saying. I'm afraid that some people don't want the scrutiny.

:eek:

[Judge Pen]

I do intend to do that with my SD background. Some SD people routinely focus their training and work with other MAs in the areas that they are interested in so they get a new perspective on thier forms and training. It's always good to get out there and learn with other people. WDL is correct. My teacher has no problem with me meeting other teachers and learning from them.

[Fu-Pow]

:)

Ten characters

[MonkeySlap Too]

The question to ask: is there any point in 'specializing' in any of the 'styles' taught at SD, since adimittdly, they are not taught by people who actually know and practice the style.

It just doesn't make any sense. Honestly, other than for folks living in a swordsman novel fantasy, I don't see anything in the SD literature to reccomend it for serious training. It would seem you would learn more bad habits that good habits. And if you are required to go outside the school to go 'deeper' into the subject - doesn't that seem like a warning right there? It's one thing to seek out other teachers of the same thing. It's another to seek out instructors to find what your missing, when your 'grandmaster' proclaims he has the true source of complete knowlege. (and we have seen from video clips that he moves EXACTLY like the other SD clips we have seen.0

Just food for thought. I'd be more interested in talking about the 'short forms.' Would anyone mind describing them how they are practised, etc.?

[Judge Pen]

I know the website and some articles say he is the grandmaster of All shaolin, 900 forms etc. I also know that his specialty is Golden Snake. I've never seen him do his specialty. I don't know if anyone has (if they have, they're not telline). It's possible that the way he moves is influenced by what his specialty is reported to be and that has trickled down into all of his forms. (And by move; I'm not talking about swimming with your pecs). So, maybe if someone wanted to specialize in Golden Snake this would be the place to go if he ever teaches any of his specialty out. Since he hasn't, it's a moot point.

Assuming, for arguments sake, that I wanted to specialize by seeking out another teacher. I like Hsing I, Hua (but I can't do it right), Pa Kua etc. I don't know of a teacher in my area that specialized in this. Knoxville is not the mecca of chinese martial arts. I have Pong Lai 3 hours in either direction and CLF 3 hours south. There's a wushu teacher in knoxville teaching BaGua and Chen Tai Chi. There's Wah Lum. And there's SD. Of the local choices, SD is preferrable to me. If I moved elsewhere where more local options were convenient, then I might decide to empty my cup and try something new.

Fact is, I really enjoy my training. We train hard, spar often, and have fun. I feel confident in my ability to defend myself (whether or not what I'm learning is the undiluted real whatever).

[Judge Pen]

Short forms:

I have a very nice analysis of short forms at home. When I can, I'll post it here. Basically, They start from a low bo stance. They introduce basic blocks, kicks, punches, sweeps and throws.

The first short form is done in a low bo stance with either you right or left leg forward (we learn both sides) and your opposite hand extended in a fist. While your back hand punches your front hand blocks up and then clears to the side in a head block: the intent is to misdirect and stick to the incoming technique pulling it to the side while opening the door on your opponent for your hand technique while turning your front hip into the attack. All this is done at the same time. The first short form concludes by "blocking down" where both hands curl down with your fist palms facing you and the elbows and forearms covering the body. The point of the elbow can de driven into a foot, leg, arm etc for the block or the techniqe and be used for a type of arm break/arm bar etc. Very simple techniques with alternate applciations. The bo stance is used to build strength and balance while practicing the technique and the application can be done from any stance since you are dealing with basic principles. In fact one of the applications is to start the technique standing up and pull back into the bo using the step to provide leverage and pull your opponent into the technique while using their forward momentum. Throws can be introduced in this way.

This is the first short form taught in SD. We have 30 and the complexity and footwork builds gradually from there.

[themeecer]

The question to ask: is there any point in 'specializing' in any of the 'styles' taught at SD, since adimittdly, they are not taught by people who actually know and practice the style.

It just doesn't make any sense. Honestly, other than for folks living in a swordsman novel fantasy, I don't see anything in the SD literature to reccomend it for serious training. It would seem you would learn more bad habits that good habits. And if you are required to go outside the school to go 'deeper' into the subject - doesn't that seem like a warning right there? It's one thing to seek out other teachers of the same thing. It's another to seek out instructors to find what your missing, when your 'grandmaster' proclaims he has the true source of complete knowlege. (and we have seen from video clips that he moves EXACTLY like the other SD clips we have seen.0

Just food for thought. I'd be more interested in talking about the 'short forms.' Would anyone mind describing them how they are practised, etc.?
Some of us don't need someone to hold our hand and wipe our noses for us every step of the way. The secrets of the forms are hidden within the forms. Just because you can't do something, it doesn't mean that others can't. Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

[MasterKiller]

Some of us don't need someone to hold our hand and wipe our noses for us every step of the way. The secrets of the forms are hidden within the forms. Just because you can't do something, it doesn't mean that others can't. Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

If that person is shown the form incorrectly before they are stranded, what are the chances they'll figure out the incorrect parts and fix it themselves, especially if they have no other frame of reference with which to compare the form?

[themeecer]

If that person is shown the form incorrectly before they are stranded, what are the chances they'll figure out the incorrect parts and fix it themselves, especially if they have no other frame of reference with which to compare the form?
Who is to say they are taught incorrectly? And if they have someone to practice on, the incorrect parts would show themselves.

[Fu-Pow]

Take a person thrown on a deserted island who had one form to master. (And assuming that there are willing participants to practice on) Go back 20 years later and see how he fares. By your assumptions he wouldn't be able to master the form because he didn't have someone to hold his hand the entire time. That is just not true, in my opinion. Heck, think of the people who invented these systems ... they didn't have anyone to walk them through every little baby step, and yet look at what they created.

Your example is lacking. Kung Fu doesn't exist in a vacuum like that. Although we like to think that our art came from some Taoist sage living on a hill somewhere Kung Fu is actually a very collaborative art.

Like everything in life "Kung Fu" is composed of Buddha (I), Sangha (We) and Dharma (It(s)).

In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist.

[MasterKiller]

Who is to say they are taught incorrectly? And if they have someone to practice on, the incorrect parts would show themselves.

A) Well, MonkeySlap, for one. :D

B) You implied the person was left to practice alone, did you not? So how do the kinks get worked out then?

[Starchaser107]

"In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist."

nice way of looking at it.

[themeecer]

A) Well, MonkeySlap, for one. :D

B) You implied the person was left to practice alone, did you not? So how do the kinks get worked out then?
a) MonkeySlap has never seen me.

b) Sorry, I tried to indicate that he had someone to practice on.

[Starchaser107]

with no one there to guide either of them, and nothing to compare it to then it would begin to evolve into a different creature than it began as.

[Starchaser107]

and it would die with them , if they didn't get saved. unless it's a really big island and there are a few other men and women there on the hypothetical deserted island.

[themeecer]

I wish I was on my hypothetical island right now. At this moment I am having second thoughts about going back to college for a second degree. With the WWW at my fingertips, the sources I am needing for an economics paper is eluding me. Bah!

[MasterKiller]

I thought Kentucky was that island paradisewhere men can't marry other men, but they can marry their sisters.

[Judge Pen]

I thought Kentucky was that island paradisewhere men can't marry other men, but they can marry their sisters.

You have that confused with Alabama.

[sean_stonehart]

You have that confused with Alabama.

Don't forget the sheep ... you'll insult them if you forget the sheep...

[wdl]

You have that confused with Alabama.


Oh man, that hurts. You've cut me to the core. :D

-Will

[Fu-Pow]

"In martial arts terms....its one part the individual physical work/thought/spirit that you put in, one part the kung fu culture that you immerse yourself in and one part the actual physical path/content/training methods, etc of the style.

I believe you need all of those to reach your potential as a martial artist."

nice way of looking at it.

I'm trying to look at martial arts "integrally."

Been doing alot of reading by the philosopher Ken Wilber in the last few years.

[Judge Pen]

Oh man, that hurts. You've cut me to the core. :D

-Will

Take it out on me at our next sparring class.

[wdl]

Take it out on me at our next sparring class.

OK! :)

I'll avenge all fellow Alabamians. Not that it'll mean much or I'll get far doing it. :D

And don't stay out with your honey late before the next sparring class. You can't dodge out of this one. :p

-Will

[Judge Pen]

OK! :)

I'll avenge all fellow Alabamians. Not that it'll mean much or I'll get far doing it. :D

And don't stay out with your honey late before the next sparring class. You can't dodge out of this one. :p

-Will

It was a weekend working out in Atlanta that did me in! Valentines day had nothing to do with it.

[wdl]

It was a weekend working out in Atlanta that did me in! Valentines day had nothing to do with it.

Yeah right.... On Friday I hear, "I wouldn't miss a good fight for anything, etc". Didn't show Tuesday.... On Wednesday I hear, "I was pooped out". What am I supposed to think? I put two and two together and that equaled one heck of a Valentines for JP! LOL

-Will

[MonkeySlap Too]

Your statement demonstrates what you do not know. I don't think I'll need to see you to pass judgement on your skill. Your 'knowledge' demonstrates for me everything I need to know.

The desert isle hypothesis does not preclude that you won't learn how to fight - but it will preclude you from actually understanding the 'form'.

Here's the big secret:
The secrets to kung fu fighting skill is NOT in the forms. And if you don't have those keys, you will never unlock the knowledge/skill. Forms are just devices used to help students remember what is in the suitcase. There are benefits to forms training. But the real benefits only come out when you know what was put in the suitcase in the first place.

Look at what Fu Pow is saying and consider it. He's correct on a great many things.

You should think about the morality of the teachers that pass down such nonsense.

[themeecer]

Your statement demonstrates what you do not know. I don't think I'll need to see you to pass judgement on your skill. Your 'knowledge' demonstrates for me everything I need to know.

The desert isle hypothesis does not preclude that you won't learn how to fight - but it will preclude you from actually understanding the 'form'.

Ok, while I am thumping upside your head with my Hsing I, you are going to be laying on the ground saying ... "yeah but you don't actually understand the form." Freakin hilarious.

Here's the big secret:
The secrets to kung fu fighting skill is NOT in the forms. And if you don't have those keys, you will never unlock the knowledge/skill. Forms are just devices used to help students remember what is in the suitcase. There are benefits to forms training. But the real benefits only come out when you know what was put in the suitcase in the first place.

Your statement demonstrates your 'knowledge,' the secrets are in the forms. Just because you can't seem to find them doesn't mean they don't exist. Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting. So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.

You should think about the morality of the teachers that pass down such nonsense.
I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I rest my case.

I couldn't demonstrate what you don't understand any better than you do yourself.

Good luck with all that.

;)

[themeecer]

Fine .. rest your case.

You continue to make assumptions of people you have never met and practice your superior web-fu skills and I'll continue to base my opinions on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

REPLY: Sure I will. Just because you *think* it is so, doesn't make it so.

The Benjamin D'israeli (I think) quote paraphrased here serves best:

"The words of the clever man are always misunderstood by the stupid man as he transforms them into something he can understand."

[Fu-Pow]

Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting.

What do you mean by "feel?"



So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.

Ok.


I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

The "culture" of Shaolin-Do needs to evolve and transcend where it is now. You people have bought into the "myth" of Shaolin-Do. Even though there is a myriad of independent evidence that has been brought up against "the myth" the SD guys, at least on this forum continue to support it.

The problem with unchallenged "myths" is that they often support hierarchical power structures within an organization. Participants of your organization "don't care" if the "the myth" aspect of Shaolin-Do is true or not because it supports their own position within the organization. Starting from the top down....ie Sin The.

In order to transcend you guys need to evolve into an organization that challenges "the myth" and checks your knowledge with independent sources for "peer review." Your culture needs to step up into the world of rationality and objectivity.

Again, as before, its not just Shaolin-Do, its just that Shaolin-Do is an easy target for this kind of criticism...mostly because of the shameless self-promotion of its leaders.

[Thunaric]

Hello all, new to this forum.

I've been going to a Shaolin-do school for about two years. For alot of reasons, many already stated by others on this thread, I am going to look around at some other schools. To the point though, I feel there is this rush to learn forms without learning what to do with them. It has been my first experience with a martial arts school and in general has been a positive experience. Still, I feel there is something missing. We'll see what I find out.

Cheers

[wdl]

Hello all, new to this forum.



Welcome. :)

Where do you train?

-Will

[MonkeySlap Too]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...

[Judge Pen]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...


Hey, we've moved up in the world: We are just "questionable" instead of "downright bad" depending on what else is available! :p

Thunaric, it's a shame that the rush of forms is pushing you to leave. All arguments about lineage, purity, and myth aside, the push for new material before the old material is second nature bugs me because I see it often in schools. Good luck in your search and pm me if you have any questions you don't want to post here.

[Golden Tiger]

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied.

I would have to disagree with that MS2. There have been 1000's of people that have trained in SD. Of those, you have seen clips of 5 perhaps, suffered through keyboard sparring matches with 10 or so and trained under 1? 2? tops. So to say most is misleading. I have attended classes where for 2 hours, the entire subject discussed was limited to how to throw a hook kick. Whether you would agree that it was right or not is beside the point but that it took a heck of a lot of critical thinking to be able to do it is without question. Some of my personal students were doctors, lawyers, educators, dentists, etc. so in essence, you are saying that those people that are entrusted with the well being of others are mindless dolts.

Statements like this is about the only thing that gets to me in this big SD debate. It always seems to be implied that people that study SD are not capable of knowing what is a good MA and what is bad. That they blindly play follow the leader and will never be a true MAist because of it. I have been doing this for close to 30 years. Personally I don't consider myself a great MAist because it never was my primary goal. Most of the time its painful and with few exceptions you darn sure can't make a living off it. But while I would never be considered great, I have learned a lot. I can defend myself or my family if need be. I was at one time in better shape than I would have been if not for studying SD. I know how to generate power with very little motion. I can manipulate someone through lock and holds because of the mechanics I have learned in SD.

So please, don't assume that most who have studied SD have wasted their time until you have matched your skill set against theirs.


Sorry, late night and too much caffine.


PS. UK 71-UT 63........ :D

[Judge Pen]

PS. UK 71-UT 63........ :D

Wait until football season. :mad:

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have. Didn't think much of it.

I never implied the followers of SD were idiots, just they accepted things without critical thinking. Everyone does this about a plethora of subjects, every day in their lives, without even noticing it. Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

However, if you are teaching a subject, I think you are morally bound to question it, certainly when there such an incredible mountain of facts that call it into question. Again, if ST called SD 'a hodge-podge of JMA/CMA and stuff I learned from books, I don't think anyone would doubt that. But being the 'true' Shaolin, well that's downright funny... and ethically wrong. Insofar as being an MAist - well I'd rather not do CMA than attend a forms factory - but SD is not alone in that particular problem, just the most egregious example.

[Judge Pen]

Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

I resemble that remark. :D

[sean_stonehart]

Doh!!!!!!!!!

[BM2]

There have been several points stated that bear merit.
MST, it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't repeat the same views in each of them. I found myself passing over your posts due to repeation. Getting someone to view your opinion differently will not be accomplished through multiple posting of the same opinions. This is something that I am also guilty of doing.
By making constructive criticisms, several forum members of other styles have brought forth opinions shared by myself concerning SD.
While painful to admit, rank advancement seems to be more important then being able to do it correctly. When I read that some schools have black belts with 1.5 years or less in, it screams that something is very wrong.
While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were immature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

[Judge Pen]

While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were imature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

We still have a junior black designation at our school. They can wear black though.

[The Willow Sword]

I knew what SD was and I had not really been so gung ho about being a follower of the rhetoric and the claims and statements made by the organization. I knew that it wasn’t traditional CMA and I knew that certain aspects of the history were questionable. But what I did like and admire about Sd was the atmosphere there and the curriculum itself,,it actually was very conducive to the everyday average joe and jane who wanted to take a martial art,,learn self defense and not have to deal with a drill instructor environment or be in these reality fighting schools that most folks would not go to anyway. So the sell point at SD was done well and the atmosphere there was decent. What finally clinched it for me as to the history of SD and its claims was the research I finally did when I left the school.
This information focused on the “hairy grandmanster,,which they name (Su Kong) My research turned up another Picture of “Su kong” whose name is actually ”li Baoshu” who was part of the bejing circus in the 1930’s and the picture that everyone sees of Li baoshu in the suit and tie was taken and put in an old guiness book of world records featuring “circus freak shows”(in this book it is a full body shot)the picture that is shown to everyone now and that has been for years is just a head shot(edited of course). This book was found at a public library in louisville kentucky and shown to my previous teacher back in the early 80’s(it was an old book from the late 60’s and for some reason is no longer at the library in Louisville Kentucky). It has been debated here and the Sd’ers will dismiss it as just a similarity and not another picture of their “great grandmaster”. But in fact the persons in the two pictures I have are the same person( now there are some other pictures of people with the same disorder that Li baoshu had that look similar only with respect to the disorder,,but are obviously different people,,it is NOT the case with the pics that I have.) I wish I could find that book and then the evidence would be concrete and could not be downplayed or argued as something other than what it is(ironic eh?)

Anyway we have beat the dead horse in to something else now,,the gelatin mass that once was a dead horse is now pureed in to something else other than a dead horse,,yet we continue to beat it as if it were top news. Hahaha and the rest of us roll our eyes and think “ oh boy here we go again”.

Peace,,TWS

[Judge Pen]

I'm not going to disagree with you TWS, but here's my question: why can't you or someone else find that picture elsewhere? Surely other libraries have it other than Louisville Kentucky. If so, I'd like to see it. I've seen other pictures of li Baoshi and while they are similar (as similar as any other Chinese man with that disorder) they were not conclusive. You may be right but if the excat picture exists (but a full body shot) I'd love to see it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well, sometimes trying to explain it better works, or the point just hasn't been addressed.

JP - Ah, we just pick on Doctors, Lawyers, and such because everyone has experience with at leat one wacky one. No offense... but I dated a lawyer for a long time, and after her, I probably have the greatest reserve of lawyer jokes in history (starting with her). So, um, be forewarned...

Do you know why there are no marketing guy jokes? .... hey, you hired us...

[Judge Pen]

JP - Ah, we just pick on Doctors, Lawyers, and such because everyone has experience with at leat one wacky one. No offense... but I dated a lawyer for a long time, and after her, I probably have the greatest reserve of lawyer jokes in history (starting with her). So, um, be forewarned...


You'll be hard pressed to tell me a lawyer joke I haven't heard.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Finally, a challenge I'm equipped to accept!

[The Willow Sword]

Here are the pics for all to compare and debate till your hearts content. One is of "Su kong who is really li baoshu all clean cut and wearing a suit with hair brushed and such" it is this pic that was taken from the book i mentioned in my above post and used. ( it is tough to challenge it since pics like these are very rare and out of print books that dissapear from the louisville library helps to support their argument of specualtion).

and the other is the Wild lion looking li baoshu, as he was displayed in the bejing zoo, circa 1930's. this pic was taken from the net actually on a site that was dedicated to studying people in china with long hair and odd disorders.



Hey its up to the individual to decide about what is what in terms of legitamacy of historical events. Most of us say they are fabricated with regards to SD's history,,,and alot of other references to history in china will concur and show the timeline disputes and such.
So if you go on the premise based on what evidence HAS been given about the history of Sd and you conclude therefore that the history was fabricated,,it leaves one to wonder WHAT ELSE is fabricated at the school IE: forms and such.

Peace,,TWS

[sean_stonehart]

Here are the pics for all to compare and debate till your hearts content. One is of "Su kong who is really li baoshu all clean cut and wearing a suit with hair brushed and such" it is this pic that was taken from the book i mentioned in my above post and used. ( it is tough to challenge it since pics like these are very rare and out of print books that dissapear from the louisville library helps to support their argument of specualtion).

and the other is the Wild lion looking li baoshu, as he was displayed in the bejing zoo, circa 1930's. this pic was taken from the net actually on a site that was dedicated to studying people in china with long hair and odd disorders.



Hey its up to the individual to decide about what is what in terms of legitamacy of historical events. Most of us say they are fabricated with regards to SD's history,,,and alot of other references to history in china will concur and show the timeline disputes and such.
So if you go on the premise based on what evidence HAS been given about the history of Sd and you conclude therefore that the history was fabricated,,it leaves one to wonder WHAT ELSE is fabricated at the school IE: forms and such.

Peace,,TWS

Interesting ...

[SDJerry]

There have been several points stated that bear merit.
MST, it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't repeat the same views in each of them. I found myself passing over your posts due to repeation. Getting someone to view your opinion differently will not be accomplished through multiple posting of the same opinions. This is something that I am also guilty of doing.
By making constructive criticisms, several forum members of other styles have brought forth opinions shared by myself concerning SD.
While painful to admit, rank advancement seems to be more important then being able to do it correctly. When I read that some schools have black belts with 1.5 years or less in, it screams that something is very wrong.
While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were immature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.

I have been studying SD for 5 years... I am still not a blackbelt ;)

In our school there is no way you could possibly obtain black in a year and a half. Its a mandantory 3 months wait between belts up to your brown belt. Thats from white, to yellow, to blue, to green, and then to brown. So you tie up a year just getting to your brown belt. There are 3 degrees of brown and the wait changes to six months once you obtain your brown belt. So that would take you a year and a half just to get through your brown belt.

At my school there is never any pressure to test and if they think you are not ready then you will not test. They also go out of their way to explain application but encourage you to also find your own. They really just kinda give you ideas to get you thinking on you're own ways to use them.

[wdl]

How come if I google search for "li Baoshi" I only get 4 unique hits? None of them really related a hairy person? Is it spelled wrong?

-Will

[BM2]

SDJerry,
As you already are aware some schools are very different. I think it is somewhere on this thread that a SD student said that there were BB at his school with less than a year and a half in.
TWS,
While it is difficult to say for certain since the facial features are obscured, I don't think they look alike.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, we could debate the two pictures endlessly. While I sense some conspiracy theory afloat with the missing Guniess Book from Louisville (it must be true since that book is gone) Surely someone else from a place where SD doesn't have a toe hold could go to the Library and find the book. That's the best evidence to what you are saying.

BM2, aren't you in Lousiville? Admit it, you stole the book with the picture. Fess up.

[Golden Tiger]

While searching the local library I came across the formula for cold fusion. Once I realised what it was, I returned and it was gone.....the humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MonkeySlap Too]

And my evil reptile overlords in the Carlisle group will never let you have it back!

:rolleyes:

[wdl]

TWS's dude looks more like the dude that Kansas used on a 1995 album cover for Freaks of Nature:

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-102250/reviews/kansas/kansas_freaks_of_nature.html

I had that album before I joined SD. I saw Su Kong's pic and did a double take. Like TWS's picture it's not very clear and it's hard to tell if it's the same person without a giving him/her/it a good shave anyway. But I think the pic Kansas used favors the guy TWS is talking about more than Su Kong.

My question is still not answered, if he was published, why can't I find specific information about him online?


-Will

[Judge Pen]

The website where TWS got that picture was from opendemocracy.com. That's the only website I can find that references Li Baoshu. I'm not saying that he did or did not exist (anymore than I can say Su Kong did or did not exist). I'm just saying that you can find more non-SD internet references to Su Kong than to Li Baoshu.

And, as we all know, if it's on the internet it must be true.

[wdl]

Ok, I did have it spelled wrong. Now it makes more sense. But still, if you search: "Li Baoshu" + "Hair" you only get 6 unique results two of which are at open democracy and are the only ones related to Li Baoshu. God only knows an attraction like that should have gotten more press attention. Personally I'd like to see a bunch of pictures of him. :D

Interesting Read: http://hcs.harvard.edu/~hapr/summer00_tech/bookreview.html

This link basically states that there are 60,000 such people in the world today(whether or not it's true, who knows):
http://funreports.com/2004/11/30/57331.html

-Will

[serene_dragon]

Willow

Keep on posting that solid concrete evidence. WOW...
With evidence like that all of us SD students should lower our heads with shame.
Maybe after I stop laughing

Sorry its been a long day

[Judge Pen]

The thing is, we are in the same position as TWS in our proof. I know what I believe and I know what I can prove, but the two are often miles apart. I can't say that I "know" anything beyond the recollections of my experiences. The rest is conjecture.

[MasterKiller]

Those aren't the same guy.

[Judge Pen]

Those aren't the same guy.

I'm curious. . . . Why don't you think the pictures are of the same guy?

[Brad]

While I sense some conspiracy theory afloat with the missing Guniess Book from Louisville (it must be true since that book is gone) Surely someone else from a place where SD doesn't have a toe hold could go to the Library and find the book. That's the best evidence to what you are saying.
I tried, but strangely, none of the libraries in our centeral Ohio library system stock any of the Guiness World Record books. This conspiracy may be much more widspread than you think ;)

[Judge Pen]

I tried, but strangely, none of the libraries in our centeral Ohio library system stock any of the Guiness World Record books. This conspiracy may be much more widspread than you think ;)

OMG, there are SD schools in Ohio. I suppose that when a new school moves into an area the first thing the instructor does is go to the Library and purge the Guiness World Record Books. Communists. :p