Is Shaolin-Do for real? [Archive] - Page 24

brucereiter

07-28-2007, 09:24 PM

To put my comments in perspective, I learn hsing i from a guy who's done a lot of tai chi and bagua but mostly hsing i over ~20 years, and his teacher has studied internal arts for most of his ~70 years. I get snippets of tai chi at times but don't know any forms. We do a lot of tai chi mechanics for example, which is why I was commenting on structure. I don't know the moves and sequences in the forms but I do know a little about structure.

i think some body mechanics translate from art to art so if you "know" one i agree you might be able to "see" another.

as far as my structure goes i guess feeling me would be the only way to know if my structure is sound. ya may ask some who have touched hands with me who are not sd students for their perspective on my structure etc ... i maintain that i do move from my center and i do us my whole body to move ...

do you have any examples of you practicing your art? then we can see a bit more of where you are coming from.

best,

bruce

Toby

07-29-2007, 05:47 AM

... i maintain that i do move from my center and i do us my whole body to move ...The way we do it it's very easy to see the centre engaging the rest of the body in some moves. I couldn't see that same connection in your clips. I'm not saying that it's not there, but I couldn't see it.

do you have any examples of you practicing your art? then we can see a bit more of where you are coming from.No, sorry. I don't have a video camera and I've never even thought about filming myself. But props to you for doing so and putting it out there. I enjoy watching demonstrations, there's lots that can be learned.

bodhi warrior

07-30-2007, 06:01 AM

I know alot of people recognize Eric Smith as Shaolin do's internal expert, but do some people know he studied with Dr. Yang Ywing Ming in Boston while he attended Harvard Law school? For those that do know, how much of that impacted his study of Shaolin do? Just curious if he discussed some of his training in boston?

Mas Judt

07-30-2007, 06:15 AM

Baqualin

07-30-2007, 07:19 AM

[QUOTE=bodhi warrior;783208]I know alot of people recognize Eric Smith as Shaolin do's internal expert, but do some people know he studied with Dr. Yang Ywing Ming in Boston while he attended Harvard Law school? For those that do know, how much of that impacted his study of Shaolin do? Just curious if he discussed some of his training in boston?[/QUO

GMS incouraged him & it helped his study of Tai Chi.......but he still stands right next to GMS & is still studying under him not Dr. Ming

Baqualin

07-30-2007, 07:23 AM

This is why I suggest people look at Sin The' - it is easy to for some to cover up or lie about other experience - whereas Sin The' moves like he does, as the head of the system, and all you really need to see is right there.

What of Sin The have you actually seen to base this statement on..........if your so curious, why don't you meet go the man

Golden Tiger

07-30-2007, 04:35 PM

This is why I suggest people look at Sin The' - it is easy to for some to cover up or lie about other experience - whereas Sin The' moves like he does, as the head of the system, and all you really need to see is right there.

I have watched him move and learned something each time he did so. I have held the kicking bag and felt how hard he could kick and strike it (and I am no little fellow either). Now close to 30 years later, I am still here.

What I haven't done is base my opinions on video clips or demos on the web or heresay from others how haven't experienced what I have.

So, should I go with first hand experience or no hand experience....:rolleyes:

kwaichang

07-30-2007, 04:50 PM

I agree GT I too have felt his power and witnessed his speed during Snake Pa Kua people should take the Missouri principle and if the havent seen or experienced it personally not comment on it. " Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth ? " haha KC:)

brucereiter

07-30-2007, 08:06 PM

I have watched him move and learned something each time he did so. I have held the kicking bag and felt how hard he could kick and strike it (and I am no little fellow either). Now close to 30 years later, I am still here.

What I haven't done is base my opinions on video clips or demos on the web or heresay from others how haven't experienced what I have.

So, should I go with first hand experience or no hand experience....:rolleyes:

my teacher said something to me "people may talk about how gmt this gmt that but he has never felt or seen anyone punch and kick as fast and as hard and with as much acceleration/explosion ..." that is second hand info that i think is good ... :-)

Mas Judt

07-31-2007, 02:58 AM

Judge Pen

07-31-2007, 02:26 PM

I would love to meet him.

I can assure you that I am a nice guy in person. If he's really that awesome, I would own up to it. Although, based on the few videos I have seen and student encountered, I'm not holding my breath.

does he live in California now? I make it to both the North and the South at least once a year... I'd even buy dinner.

He's in Southern California. I'm not sure what his schedule is like because he travels around to his students schools regularly.

Baqualin

07-31-2007, 05:30 PM

I would love to meet him.

I can assure you that I am a nice guy in person. If he's really that awesome, I would own up to it. Although, based on the few videos I have seen and student encountered, I'm not holding my breath.

does he live in California now? I make it to both the North and the South at least once a year... I'd even buy dinner.

He lives in the West Hills area of LA.....best bet would be to contact the schools in Ca. to see when the next seminar or tourney is....as JP said he's on the road most of the time.

Shaolin Wookie

08-04-2007, 06:22 PM

Hey guys, some questions from the Wook:

I have a couple of forms for which I have names/lyrics for each of the movements:

1st Golden Leopard
2nd Road SL Double Daggers

Are there similar notes on the lyrics for all of our lower belt forms (yellow-brown)? Do any of you have access to them, or can you get them to me somehow? I'm not talking pakua or tai chi (they all have lyrics, and every student learns them). I want to know if I can get the movement lyrics for fei hu chu tung, lohan chien, etc. all the way through brown belt.

I know they're not, per say, vital to understanding the forms, but they often help you divide the form up for drills, etc. I found this especially helpful for Golden Leopard (in dividing up combos for restructuring them and playing with them) and Double Daggers (as it is very easy to get caught up in the spinning slashes, etc...lol).

Thanks in advance, for anyone who can help me with this. I'm gonna ask my teacher, but I'll be on vacation for a week. THought I'd ask you guys, as well, as many of you have been in this system for a decade or two (some even three or four, lol).

Later

Shaolin Wookie

08-04-2007, 06:41 PM

Funny. Students (myself included) are always wondering how to apply the material, like it's something that has to be grasped out of thin air. Teachers always imply that everything is rooted in the short forms, which is pretty much true. But I also noticed about a week ago how I kept comparing the movements in lower belt forms to the blue belt techniques, yellow belt ippons, and all the chin na while helping out some lower belt classmates who were having trouble remembering their forms. I'd say 90% of all the movements in the forms have direct correlations to these elementary drills we do. Even when they're not direct, they're just small variations of the same thing. Lol. I realized how stupid I was not to see this....lol. And these same ippons, techniques, and chin na are what most students gloss over, forget, and can't perform that well (not that I'm a particular gem, either:D). Man, sometimes you just have to slap yourself on the forehead and laugh at yourself for being so blind.

Ippon blocks=opening blocks of short katas 11-12=fold/unfold circle clears at close of Jingang fu hu chien, and those in all of the 3 bird forms=technique #1 clear and arm control. Technique #2=sparring tech #6=China hand sweeps, and any backsweep in short forms (#'s 7, and 25, notably). All the same thing. All dressed just a little different. Taught for applications (techniques/ippons), form (in the sparring techs, short forms), and transition/balance (in forms). How did I not see how this was set up? L O Friggin' L. There is such an overwhelming emphasis for standing grappling, sweeping, and throwing in our lower belt forms, but all I used to see was strikes.

Anyways, my teacher said to me about two weeks ago: Bow stances are knee traps. I almost slapped my head again. I've seen the bow stance knee trap in a couple of chin na. But somehow I just never thought to apply that in general. Hahaha.....useful for staying on your feet.

Shaolin Wookie

08-04-2007, 06:59 PM

I really think the lyrics for the forms could help out some students. For instance, there's a move in the double daggers called "Giant Tiger Embraces his heart" where you execute a clockwise circling block overhead (with right hand dagger) while stepping from a kneeling jade ring into a left bow stance, as the left hand performs a kind of smaller circle almost at the same time.........

I had a basic understanding of the movement (like all newbs with a knife, I just wanted to jump around in circles, slashing like a crackhead mofo), but I never really considered it much of a "complete technique/sequence in itself" until I examined the name and thought about it. I'm thinking: ducking low (bobbing in evasion), coming up with a slash to the belly or flanks with the right hand dagger, using the left arm and dagger to slash under the opponent's left arm and pushing it up/to my left so I can get behind, so that when the right hand swings back around (where it chambers under the left armpit in the form) it stabs into the stomach. The left hand is in position for a chokehold/throat slash, as I am now positioned behind the guy. And then, moving into the "Dove flips over Mountain" movement, using your weight to rip a gash across the stomach for gutting as you jump and change directions/get some distance from the opponent. (It's kind of like weapons grappling).

The "embrace" part of the lyric got me thinking of a hug, which is the motion of the arm control and positioning, and stabbing to the gut or up under the ribcage, where you will eventually stab with the right hand, trying to get at the heart.

For the first year I've had it, I was always thinking simplistically, like slashing with the right across the gut, then stabbing into the ribcage as the right hand came back around, or slashing across the chest (which causes problems with the icepick grip, ya know?)

Shaolin Wookie

08-04-2007, 07:15 PM

Examining your forms this way, you realize what a sick, sadistic ******* you have to be to feel such joy in discovering ways to kill someone effectively. All I know is that technique would be bloody, and quick. And you'd get all kinds of nasty stuff on your brand new shoes.

bodhi warrior

08-04-2007, 07:35 PM

Shaolin Wookie

08-04-2007, 07:39 PM

bodhi warrior

08-04-2007, 08:24 PM

I personally like those forms as well. I particularly like the circle blocking and the elbow chop.:D

Lamassu

08-04-2007, 08:29 PM

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

Something you have to keep in mind with the whole 900 forms claim, is that they include the more recent forms that GMS has made in order to instruct newer students here in the States. GM Su Kong never had these bird forms in his cirriculum, but then again the methodology of teaching new students back then was way different. Back in the day, a new student's class would focus mostly on stance training circuit drills with kicks, punches and blocks and strength training, and for the first few years of training you would only have a couple of forms under your belt. This type of training isn't very profitable here in the United States, however, and in order to keep students training, GMS would have to make accomedations to satifsy our American desire for instant gratification, and make up and teach out these very short and simplistic forms to keep our intrest.

I won't say Fei Hu Chu Tung, is a useless form, but it's way too short to be a proper Shaolin form from the late 19th century - early 20th century. But it's still a mountain tiger form, where simplistic elements were mixed and matched and created to make a simple form that would intrigue us and keep us motivated, while still imbibing the spirit of the mountain tiger style.

I remember Master Schaefer telling me this a few years back when I earned my 1st degree Black Belt, that GMS doesn't even consider you one of his students until you get your 1st degree BB. Not because he's trying to be snotty, but simply because the forms, styles and techniques get more complex, harder and deadlier once you learn all the basics, which encompass your entire training regime from white belt to 1st degree brown. So think of all those colored belt levels you've trained for and see them for what they are: basic training.

Ngfamilymember

08-04-2007, 08:36 PM

900 forms???? Surely you can't be serious!?

Thanks,
-Ngfamilymember

Daniel09

08-04-2007, 08:49 PM

I feel so left out. There are tons of different schools and I haven't the capability to go to any of them.

bodhi warrior

08-04-2007, 10:14 PM

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?:cool:

arinathos.valin

08-04-2007, 10:35 PM

Hi all...

Go away for a couple of days and look and how much you miss...

A few things to comment on from the voluminous amount of posts.

1) I'm not necessarily so concerned at how different schools in SD have different variations. I think it's natural when people transmit something as subjective as a martial arts form that one changes the form in subtle ways to suit your own strengths. I've been reviewing forms from Gerald Sharp and Luo JinHua, both of whom have a direct lineage to Jiang Rong Jiao, the creator of the Bagua form in SD. Although the moves are very similar, they both do the forms slightly differently. Likewise, I've also been looking at Ted Mancuso's version of Jiang Bagua... a student of Adam Hsu. They all have some subtle differences in stance, hand placement, and transitions between moves. However, they also have some similarities in underlying principles that I just did not see in M. Groom's demo video.

2) The video of Cheng Man Ching doing the form should indeed have similarities with what SD students do.... it's his form! SD's longest Yang style form is the Cheng distillation of the Yang 108 move form, and the lineage is indisputable. The Yang forms of SD aren't "temple" derivatives.

3) I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss the criticisms of inaccuracies by Mas and others. I think that half of the critics on this board wouldn't be here if SD was billed as a separate 'hybrid art' with a Shaolin flavor. No one rags on kempo, because it doesn't claim to be the sole lineage holder from its Chinese/Japanese roots. Likewise, no one rags on To Shin Do for its ninjitsu lineage because Stephen Hayes doesn't claim that it is the sole lineage art for Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu (whether Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu is the real deal or whether ninjitsu is an effective art is another question). If GMT does make the claim that he is the sole Shaolin Grandmaster and it is a false assertion, then it does raise the issue of his credibility.

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

Judge Pen

08-04-2007, 11:08 PM

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?:cool:

No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?

Judge Pen

08-04-2007, 11:09 PM

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

Thanks. :cool:

Mas Judt

08-04-2007, 11:34 PM

Care to elaborate, Judge? We've got a ways to go to set the post record....

arinathos.valin

08-05-2007, 12:51 AM

BTW... had a decent amount of success tracking down the lineage of the "Classical" Bagua form from SD, but I can't seem to find where the "Animal" Bagua form came from. Anyone out there have the answer?

bodhi warrior

08-05-2007, 01:16 AM

I haven't had that one, but isn't it sun lu tang's eight animal Pakua?

tattooedmonk

08-07-2007, 09:28 PM

Alchemy is ridiculous in every culture it has popped up in. It's pseudoscience (science hijacked by schizophrenics). If you apply it to tai chi or something, you have to apply it to everything. Hence, you must brush the crumbs off your pants five times, even though one swipe would have sufficed to clean the mess. If you're driving your car and you make a right turn, you'd better **** well turn that wheel five times fully and make five complete circles, because if you don't, you'll throw off your delicate internal chemical balances. You don't cook chemicals in your veins, or control the functions of your liver with breathing techniques, or do irreparable damage to your kidneys by having bad coordination during your single whip movements. You ward off and push to ward off a punch and push.;)

Sure, the alchemy predated Tai Chi, but I guaran****tee that it had precisely **** to do with the structural formulation of the art. I'm sure someone very invested in the alchemical society imposed upon the art his alchemical prejudices to make it more personalized. But come on.....you show me a chemical formula that delineates how the body should move during tai chi, which prescribes motions like ward offs, etc by the various movings and interminglings of hydrogens and carbons, and maybe I'll change my mind. Does hemoglobin react differently to four ward offs as opposed to five? And during which part of the fifth ward off does the hemoglobin begin to realize that something significant has happened?:D

Mathematics has nothing to do with the order (?....ever hear of entropy?:D) of the universe. The universe works a certain way, but often doesn't work that way upon further analysis (I've always preferred Wheeler's description of a "higgledy-piggeldy" universe). You can describe it with mathematics (always fractionally imprecise--take Newton's gravitational principles and Einstein's observations of MErcury). You can describe ti with language. But mathematics is a languange man uses to describe numeric things---all of which are notions exclusive to man. Pythagoras was a wizard with numbers. But he was also a fool who believed numbers had a mystical, divine significance. His findings actually contradict TAoist numerology. So how does one prove which is correct? Pythagoras or Taoist numerology? Can you prove these things? Of course not? So how do you prove which is correct, when you have two unprovable, contradictory things?

Considering the applicablity of Pythagoras's mathematical findings, I'm sorry to inform you that he's far more relevant to today's society than any Taoist sect's numerological nonsense. Hell, I even like his philosophy better.

But I still regard him with mild amusement at his expense.Well it appears that your understanding in this area is extremely limited and biased. I suggest you have a talk with your instructor and other masters in these arts.

We are not talking about mysticism and make believe. We are talking about real science.

You will find that western medicine/ science supports the findings the Chinese made thousands of years ago.

humbleman

08-08-2007, 02:57 AM

I suppose every style has its' detractors. There is a style of karate in Erie PA called Goshin Jutsu, on the karate pages there is a guy who is so obsessed with trashing the styles founder that he uses at least 5 different names on the forums trying to mislead people about Goshin Jutsu. In doing so he has, in my opinion, made himself the styles greatest proponent. After reading his hateful posts, it has convinced me to take up Goshin as my new style. I have had the misfortune to meet this man in person. He is by nature a bully and coward. And if he ever cares to try poking at my leg with a stick again, I will show him an interesting place to store it. Thanks for the inspiration, Ken. I will think of you in my training- every time I throw a punch or kick. Love, TIM

Ngfamilymember

08-08-2007, 03:35 AM

No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.

tattooedmonk

08-08-2007, 04:07 AM

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.900 forms also includes; sparring techniques 1-20 , Chin Na 1-30 and short forms 1-30, specific sets like Yi Jin Jing , Hua Tou's 5 Animal Frolics, etc. are also considered forms. As it has also been stated/explained that Master Sin created forms as well. There are also training forms that focus on specific techniques of a system.

Black Jack II

08-08-2007, 04:26 AM

I am suprised Sin The has not had his group make instructional videos yet, with the market as it is today, and with people wanting the great mysteries of the east, I bet he would have a few buyers, bunk material or not.

Judge Pen

08-08-2007, 05:26 AM

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

I'm not playing an old tune. I e-mailed Alex Huynh and he told me that's where he learned those particular forms that he displayed in "fight science." That isn't a tune, that was a fact. I do wonder why someone in the NG lineage would be teaching forms that are clearly identifiable as SD.

For the record, the whole Ng "rivalry" pre-dated me. I really didn't know anything about it until these forums. I actually learned a couple of Ng forms from a friend a long time ago, but didn't know anything more about them. I have no axe to grind with the Ngs.

I'll post a copy of the e-mail responses if anyone's interested in Alex Huynh's response....

bodhi warrior

08-08-2007, 10:27 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?

Judge Pen

08-08-2007, 01:37 PM

I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?

I'll post those e-mails, unedited, later today.

As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.

Lamassu

08-08-2007, 05:30 PM

As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.

As I understand it, pretty much most of the forms taught from white belt to 1st brown were made by GM The to adapt Shaolin Do for its American students.

Baqualin

08-08-2007, 05:58 PM

Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

Sad...were all pretty happy...besides just like rock n roll will never die, neither will SD:cool:

Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.

You know what they say about opinions. It's alot more accurate than you know....almost half have been taught out to date.:)

Judge Pen

08-08-2007, 06:39 PM

Here are the e-mails I referenced. The only thing that I edited involved personal contact information. The body of the e-mails are unaltered:

***

On 10/9/06, [Judge Pen] wrote:

Alex,

In the "Fight Science" show you demonstrated moves in a form that are, move for move, identical to forms that I know including a forms known to me as "LoHan Chien" and "Fei Hu" I'm curious to know where you learned these sequences....Did you train with anyone that studied these forms? Did you learn them from your shaolin instructor?

I appreciate in advance your cooperation and courtesy in my questions. I look forward to hearing back from you.

[Judge Pen]

On 10/9/06, Alex Huynh wrote:

Mr. [Pen],

Yes indeed, that was Lohan Chien and Fei Fu Chu Tong (I'm afraid I just butchered the spelling). I studied ShaoLin Kungfu under Instructor David White and Grandmaster John Winglock Ng. That's where I got my official start in the Chinese martial arts. Wushu came much later (I've done traditional for over 15 years, Wushu for maybe 4 years), contrary to popular belief.

I'm very glad you got to see the program and I hope you enjoyed it. There are many things that were cut from the show due to time restraints, but I did my best to represent the Chinese arts. Thank you for watching to show, stay tuned for more!

Sincerely,
Alex Huynh

***

So there you go; now you all know as much as I do about these forms and the SD Ng connection to them.

bodhi warrior

08-08-2007, 08:20 PM

Judge Pen

08-08-2007, 09:00 PM

I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.:cool:

When was this mentioned? By whom?

You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).

sean_stonehart

08-08-2007, 09:47 PM

When was this mentioned? By whom?

You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).

Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife. ;)

I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.

sean_stonehart

08-08-2007, 09:49 PM

bodhi warrior

08-08-2007, 10:27 PM

sean_stonehart

08-08-2007, 10:37 PM

It was in a class I attended long ago. EM leonard was teaching the class and made mention of when he got it from GMS. It is possible someone other than Doc fai wong would have this form, unless he was the one who made it up.:rolleyes:

The only people who would have this form come from the Hung Sing school of San Francisco started by Lau Bun. It's just that simple. Any students of Lau Bun's who spent any measurable training time with him would've/should've learned it. Lau Bun brought the set with him to America when he immigrated over in the 1920's.

There are other forms with the 5 Animal name, but this set is unique to the Hung Sing school & lineage of Lau Bun.

bodhi warrior

08-08-2007, 10:58 PM

sean_stonehart

08-08-2007, 11:05 PM

My choy li fut history is very limited, so did lau ban create the form or was he taught it by someone else. Or did he modify it? I'm just curious. I know Chan Heung(sp?) learned numerous forms and even created some to suit his students. Just wondering if Lau Ban did the same?

Story goes that Lau Bun was taught this form by his teacher's (Yuen Hai) wife. He may or may not have modified it. No way of knowing. But when compared to other sets named 5 Animals they're different from each other, except for SD's version taught at 4th to 5th black which is way to close to the 5 Animal taught by Lau Bun & published in a book by GM Doc Fai Wong.

Judge Pen

08-08-2007, 11:46 PM

Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife. ;)

I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork ;)

Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife? If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage? I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

sean_stonehart

08-09-2007, 12:04 AM

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork ;)

:eek: Yeah work has new restrictions on Net usage... but I work form home on Wed & Fri so I have my work laptop working & my desktop for other stuff... ;)

Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife?

To my knowledge I can't say if it was or wasn't. But given that Yuen Hai's wife was from Fukien & this set doesn't (as it is taught now so presumably once it got to the US) exhibit the common Fukienese indicators (range, power generation, stance work) it's logical to assume to a degree that Lau Bun CLF-ized it to fit his teachings from Yuen Hai.

If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage?

A possibility but I gotta say remote at best. There's not been any mention of Yuen Hai's teachings outside of Lau Bun in Toisan & definately no mentioning of his wife anywhere else.

I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

Of course & no worries. They could indeed exist however the chances of it are slim since there's only been one school/line to teach it in the US from the 1920's to the 1980's which was Lau Bun's Hung Sing & its students, GM DFW included. Then sometime in the 80's or 90's, SD starts teaching it, possibly as late as the early 90's.

Leto

08-09-2007, 01:46 AM

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7668357842174438491&q=hung+sing+clf&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8600206446613609471&q=choy+li+fut+five+animals&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1018410307709047502&q=choy+li+fut+wu+xing&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form? It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards. If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable. Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form? I remember GM The was teaching it in seminars in the west around the time when I started, and probably before that. The people who saw it from him said it was pretty much the same as what the Soards were teaching in the following years, with a couple minor differences. If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same. Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

Judge Pen

08-09-2007, 03:26 AM

The first example is the same form. About 1/2 into the form: Green Dragon enters the ocean (posture 52), Green Dragon faces the sun (#53) White crane double strike out (#54), etc. To my understanding, Hung Sing CLF typically plays this set slow, like tai chi, and my understanding with certain internal principles at play. If you compare Lau Bun's version to SD's it is, as I've said 80 to 85% the same. In fact the structure and general postures are the same, but the types of strikes with the posture are a little different.

I've seen some of the Soard's version of this form, and it is played a bit differently then the way I learned it from Elder Master Mullins.

Leto

08-09-2007, 04:11 AM

I can see the green dragon, the white crane double strike and triple strikes are very different though. I'll take your word for it, since this is only a tiny bit of the form. I wonder how the snake postures are performed, white snake leaps over the twig, golden snake whips its tail, white snake comes out of the hole. Those are the postures which I'm always "fidgety" about, in terms of what to emphasize.

Let me ask a technical question: the way you learned it, what is the difference in arm/hand movement between golden snake whips its tail and white crane strikes wings or strikes out three times? Both seem to be sort of hooking/circling motions that would connect with ridge hand. I waft back and forth on the emphasis of the golden snake, whether it should be focusing on the finger tips or the ridge hand.

sean_stonehart

08-09-2007, 04:23 AM

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7668357842174438491&q=hung+sing+clf&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

That one is Lau Buns Ng Ying Kuen played by Jew Leong, the student who took over after Lau Bun died.

another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8600206446613609471&q=choy+li+fut+five+animals&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1018410307709047502&q=choy+li+fut+wu+xing&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

These two vids are the same form, played by different people with immense distance in skill levels... but Hung Sing, just not the same Hung Sing (long story there)

is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form?

Nope the first one only

It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards.

You are not incorrect. I've watched the video on the Soard's site & I had to work to figure out what the guy was doing. It's not even in the ball park close.

If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form?

Two for two!!! It's not the same... not even close, yet acknowledgement is denied on it's foundations.

If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

The first video is Lau Bun's 5 Animals, which was taught in his Hung Sing School in San Fran from the mid 1930's when he opened until 1967 when he died and is still taught in the Hung Sing school there now as well as GM DFW's school and others teaching in the Bay Area that were his students.

I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same.

It is.

Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

Dude... you're possibly on to something there. Don't let it get out. They may disown you or claim you're a trouble maker or the like. You may even have to relocate to Ga or Tn to stay in SD with heretical speak such as that!!

Betcha a lot of other stuff would look the same too... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

JCAT

08-09-2007, 04:36 AM

cjurakpt

08-09-2007, 04:38 AM

why waste posts by starting a new thread when the "Is SD for real" one is still about 100 shy of the big 500 goal? be reasonable man!!!

oh, BTW, try calling IKF - they just published an article by Peter Ragnar, so at this point they are bound to let anyone in...

RD'S Alias - 1A

08-09-2007, 04:39 AM

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782

:rolleyes:

SaintSage

08-09-2007, 04:42 AM

May your martial journey be fruitful, and here's a flame-shield. You're going to need it.

Leto

08-09-2007, 05:02 AM

I'm not in the system anymore, I just like to know where some of the forms came from, and the right way to "play" them. Even if I was in the system, I wouldn't try to stir anything up, just continue doing my own thing. I'd nod politely when folks talk about "temple style" and "classical shaolin" whatever, and just train. GM The and his oldest students are the only ones who really know the truth, and they're sticking to their guns about "authentic shaolin". I don't care either way.

Ming Yue

08-09-2007, 05:13 AM

I suggest whomever you contact, you continue to write in title case. It's extremely impressive.

sean_stonehart

08-09-2007, 05:15 AM

Gotcha...

This is gonna draw fire but I'm putting it out there....

On that one set, the Lau Bun Hung Sing version is the only correct way to play that particular piece of material. Not saying it can't be fast or mixed or however, but the only correct way is the Hung Sing way. Taught any other way is not the way it's intended and designed. Also trust me when I say if it wasn't learned from from a Lau Bun student or lineaged student, it's not correct in nature/form/intent. The motions may be learned & copied & even closely so, but there's pieces that can't be learned without somebody who received the correct transmission.

The book is intentionally missing pieces & no transitions are shown for precise reasons. GM DFW isn't the only person out there doing that as well in print or video format.

Mas Judt

08-09-2007, 05:21 AM

Shows what you know. The SD version is different because it is the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN COMBAT VERSION! Everything else is but a pale shadow of the sun source of martial arts.

sean_stonehart

08-09-2007, 05:25 AM

Shows what you know. The SD version is different because it is the ORIGINAL SHAOLIN COMBAT VERSION! Everything else is but a pale shadow of the sun source of martial arts.

****it... you're right... I quit for my own good. :eek:

lkfmdc

08-09-2007, 06:22 AM

Did you know that I buy anything the man says? Like some horse crap about being the "Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History"?

is the kewl aid good?

Did you know he's SO insecure he BOUTH Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China? ****, who is that insecure? No one has ever done that!

amazine that people are still impressed with the "buy one, get one free" stone monument crap :rolleyes:

Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine

I hear "pet tails" is doing a story on the grandmaster.....

SaintSage

08-09-2007, 06:24 AM

I hear "pet tails" is doing a story on the grandmaster.....

It's true. His cat is the only cat to recieve the title of Grand Master from the Shaolin Temple.

SanHeChuan

08-09-2007, 06:44 AM

It's true. His cat is the only cat to recieve the title of Grand Master from the Shaolin Temple.

As a shaolin do black belt. LOL. :D

JCAT

08-09-2007, 07:19 AM

lkfmdc

08-09-2007, 07:31 AM

Nice to know that your grandmasters have taught the forms to the best of their ablitiy to you. Whether it be in Karate,Judo, and so forth, its ashame you all missed the class on respect for other various art forms. But, you was probably at home watching Walker Texas Ranger.

we have plenty of respect for real masters, but guys who claim jo-jo the dog faced boy as their master, prance around in Karate gi, teach utter crap and make up history on the fly get teh royal treatment here

you don't like it? LEAVE.....

have a pleasant day, don't let the door hit you in your crack

SaintSage

08-09-2007, 07:40 AM

we have plenty of respect for real masters, but guys who claim jo-jo the dog faced boy as their master, prance around in Karate gi, teach utter crap and make up history on the fly get teh royal treatment here

you don't like it? LEAVE.....

have a pleasant day, don't let the door hit you in your crack

He's a little rough around the edges, but he's like an onion; he has layers. You learn to love him! Well, I did at least.

lkfmdc

08-09-2007, 07:43 AM

here's a little quiz for you

bodhi warrior

08-09-2007, 10:51 AM

xcakid

08-09-2007, 02:18 PM

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History.

Wait, Shaolin has Grandmasters??? I thought they only had Disciples, Shi's and Abbotts??? Man, you learn something new each day.

Oh an incidently, Shi Yan Feng is only like 22 or 23yo.

Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.

A GM from a system I was affiliated with before has 3 monuments erected for him at Shaolin Temple. And is in every issue to IKF magazine hawking copies of manuscripts he got from Shaolin temple.

David Jamieson

08-09-2007, 04:10 PM

DPL

08-09-2007, 04:48 PM

For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(

David Jamieson

08-09-2007, 04:50 PM

For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(

I don't know, War and peace is longer I think. I'm trying to drag myself through it right now. It's not and easy read. Too descriptive...right down to the stink of the aristocracy. lol

DPL

08-09-2007, 04:59 PM

JCAT,
Go here: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782

Read. Read some more. Keep reading.

Come back when you're done, in a month or so. Lots of opinions on Shaolin-Do, none of which need to be rehashed yet again.

cjurakpt

08-09-2007, 09:09 PM

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History. Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.
either
1) the trolls desperately need to get some new material
2) his landlord needs to check the ventilation in his apartment and make sure there are no gas leaks
3) Sin The IS the real deal and reality as we know it has just ceased to function along the lines of the Laws of Physics

Nice to know that your grandmasters have taught the forms to the best of their ablitiy to you. Whether it be in Karate,Judo, and so forth, its ashame you all missed the class on respect for other various art forms. But, you was probably at home watching Walker Texas Ranger.
I was home flossing my cat that night...

For the love of God is it really not possible to contain this to one monstrous thread that's already longer than War and Peace? :(
no; it's like a virus that has cross-mutated and is able to jump from the original host thread to infect other ones; and I'd say the original reads more like Finnegan's Wake than W&P...

gwa sow

08-09-2007, 09:41 PM

d@mn, guess i should've taken the red pill:D. and i like the shaolin 'doh quiz

Baqualin

08-09-2007, 10:05 PM

I've often wondered if GMS didn't become a victim of his own advertisment of 900 forms. I think most of the stuff up through 4th or 5th black could have been learned from Master IE, but after realizing his students were going to push him to learn more and more forms he started to get them from other sources ie. books, videos, and maybe visiting other masters. Personally I like much of the stuff up through 2nd and 3rd black. But if you look at his brothers website he doesn't boast about knowing 900 forms and he at least list other teachers that he studied from. I mean, depending on how you count, I only get to about 200 up through 5th black. But really, their just forms anyway. I pick what I want to concentrate on and drill them. Do the conditioning(weight vest, strength excersises, bag work, sparring), and drill the forms over and over that you like till they become 2nd nature, and they will work. I've seen some terrible versions of ching kong fu hu chien on the internet but that doesn't make the form bad, just the training of the teacher. But that's another can of worms.:)

I was there the very first time he taught ( 5 animals) & put it on film (around 1990 right before he moved to Ca.)....(for those who have a copy, thats me knocking on the door....EML wanted to kill me...he didn't know who it was) I don't remember the story where it came from....but I do know that during that time period he brought in a few forms from his colleages in Indonesia....24 Tai Chi, Tai Chi fan etc........this was all before 92 when he received GMIe's notes....GMS & DFW always butted heads so I doubt it came from his book...plus all of us were well aware of DFW's books & vid's. From 92 to the present and beyond, all new material is coming directly from GMIe's notes (which are in riddles) that he left for GMS......he has no need to look elsewhere, there was enough in that suitcase to last a lifetime....this I've seen. I'm not saying he hasn't brought in forms from sources besides GMIe...he has...so what.

Baqualin

08-09-2007, 10:10 PM

[QUOTE=bodhi warrior;785542] But if you look at his brothers website he doesn't boast about knowing 900 forms and he at least list other teachers that he studied from.

GMS was GMIe's private student.....he really didn't study under the other masters....M. Hiang didn't inherit GMIe's notes

I mean, depending on how you count, I only get to about 200 up through 5th black.

As I've said before almost half have already been taught out to upper level masters....the're not on the rank advancement list

bodhi warrior

08-09-2007, 10:48 PM

I hadn't heard about the DFW and GMS issues, can you elaborate?

Baqualin

08-09-2007, 11:40 PM

I hadn't heard about the DFW and GMS issues, can you elaborate?

Nothing serious...just a difference in history issues....in which GMS turned out to be right, years later. I have nothing but respect for DFW & what he's done for CMA...I'll pm you the details.
BQ

sean_stonehart

08-09-2007, 11:45 PM

Ah go ahead & share with everybody...

bodhi warrior

08-10-2007, 02:33 AM

Mas Judt

08-10-2007, 02:45 AM

I love how everything ends up with some mysterious event where 'Grandmaster Sin' is always right. I'd love to hear this crock of bull. Even better, let's ask Doc Fai Wong.

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 02:50 AM

I have a question about the scripts in the choy li fut system. Visited Doc fai wongs site and it shows the scripts for the forms they have. What is the exact purpose of these? Are they for the masters to learn from or refer back to?

For reference. Like anything else, it's almost impossible to learn from a book or other text without knowing first what the topic is & at minimum have exposure to it previous.

bodhi warrior

08-10-2007, 03:30 AM

Baqualin

08-10-2007, 06:56 AM

Thanks. I hear alot of people say GMS is getting stuff from his notes he got from Ie. If he has already mastered them, why wouldn't he make his own notes instead of trying to decipher Master Ie riddles?

For reference as sean said....he does make his own notes, those are the copies we get. I make no claims on what he has mastered, but I guarantee he's mastered more than any of us sitting here typing on this forum.
BQ

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 03:18 PM

Baqualin

08-10-2007, 04:47 PM

But mastered what??

Forms taken from other systems that he's passed off & people bought as "Shaolin" originals from the temples and that the SD version is the original?

Forms he created on his own specifically for SD?

If #2, then bully for him. That's what it oughtta be & said as much.

If #1, then you see why there's so much animus about it.

Here's some examples of what I'm talking about. We've done the Ng Ying set to pieces & there's not been a straight answer so moving on. Same with the Taiji, Bagua & Xingyi.

Tiger Crane (Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mF1VqgVSKY&feature=PlayList&p=BE750723B584EA54&index=9

Pan Lung Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u47BQxoW6tI

Hua Fist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAH2YytlWf8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67acdZcvnHA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW7tUXPO7yM&mode=related&search=

Now for the SD Versions,

http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28

Videos #2, #3 & #4 in order

I will not comment on the videos your using as comparison...there not from my school and thats also been beat to death...and as far as the internal forms (since I'm internal only now this is where most of my research is)...GMS has always given credit to the originators of the forms and even the external froms he always credited the originators ...what I remember, he never said they originated in the temple, but came through the temple in the different areas of china...he even researches himself when he goes over there to verify what GMIe told him.

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Ok then how did ...

Yang Taiji
Jiang Rong Qiao Bagua
Xingyi
Sun Lu Tang Eight Animal Bagua
Chen Taiji
Taiji 24

come from any temple??

BTW... there's still no credit given to Jiang Rong Qiao for the SD "Classical" Bagua or Sun Lu Tang for the Eight Animal.

bodhi warrior

08-10-2007, 05:25 PM

Mas Judt

08-10-2007, 05:37 PM

But many of the things that are obvious SD signatures - the weird arm only snappy arm thing, the lack of any understanding of the structure - these are things you see in the few clips of Sin The' on the net.

Going back to Sean's point, there is a big veracity question here, one that has not really been answered.

Baqualin

08-10-2007, 05:58 PM

Ok then how did ...

Yang Taiji
Jiang Rong Qiao Bagua
Xingyi
Sun Lu Tang Eight Animal Bagua
Chen Taiji
Taiji 24

come from any temple??

I didn't say come from, I said came through...even the Chen people claim roots in the temple & 24 is a universal form developed in china and was never claimed any different....even Marshall Ho called one of his Tai Chi forms a Temple form

BTW... there's still no credit given to Jiang Rong Qiao for the SD "Classical" Bagua or Sun Lu Tang for the Eight Animal.

Your saying that, not me...besides our 8 animal isn't Sun Lu Tangs form...I haven't found that one yet, as well as our Snake & Dragon Pakua

Are you saying they don't practice Hsing I & Tai Chi in the Shaolin Temple:confused:

By the way thats a very short list of our internal forms:)

Baqualin

08-10-2007, 06:13 PM

I learned the tang lang chien form and the guy in that video really sucks.:eek: If he was a brown belt I might understand, but he was a 3rd. black. It seemed like all their forms move the same, really dance like, with no power or fluidity.
I personally think much of the attacks on sin the's character would be silenced if he would produce some actual pictures, not paintings, of him training in indonesia with GM IE. At least we would know he learned from someone.

What some people refuse to realize is GMS is not the new kid on the block...he has been teaching here since the 60's...we have been to Indonesia & seen where he trained, met some of his colleagues...and saw how they were honored by his presence.....once again this has also been beat to death. BW it wouldn't matter anyway....anyone who is in the public eye like GMS will be attacked...that's part of the terr.
BQ

kwaichang

08-10-2007, 06:16 PM

When I spoke with GMT a while back he said the system has its roots in the temple and many systems have passed through the temple and can be traced to them. He gave specific of chen tai chi and Yang as well as Pa Kua. If GMT or anyone from SD did a form perfectly you guys would still attack it. also No Power in SD ???? hahahahahahahahaha. KC

Baqualin

08-10-2007, 06:26 PM

[QUOTE=kwaichang;785809]When I spoke with GMT a while back he said the system has its roots in the temple and many systems have passed through the temple and can be traced to them. He gave specific of chen tai chi and Yang as well as Pa Kua. If GMT or anyone from SD did a form perfectly you guys would still attack it. also No Power in SD ???? hahahahahahahahaha. KC[/QUOT

Good Morning KC:D:D:D:D:cool::cool::cool:

bodhi warrior

08-10-2007, 06:35 PM

But the Yang form we practice couldn't have come through a temple, it was created very recently by Zheng man cheng. The classical Pakua we learned also couldn't have come through the temple either as it was created by Jiang rong qiao. It is possible though that the forms were picked up and practiced at the school in Indonesia. There is a book available on Snake Pakua available at Plumpub.com that I would be very interested if it is our Snake Pakua. Its in chinese though but has pics. Erle Montague also has a snake Pakua. These are the only two places I've located that has Snake Pakua. If anyone who knows our Snake Pakua could compare and give feedback it would be appreciated.

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 06:51 PM

Your saying that, not me...besides our 8 animal isn't Sun Lu Tangs form...I haven't found that one yet, as well as our Snake & Dragon Pakua

Are you saying they don't practice Hsing I & Tai Chi in the Shaolin Temple:confused:

By the way thats a very short list of our internal forms:)

Oh,,, a different 8 Animal that uses the same ones as SLT.

Xingyi... never heard of it there & didn't see it there when I was there in 01 with SD. Liu He Xinyi yes, but that's different.

Taiji at the Temple?? Dunno but I know Chen Zhen li has taught it at the schools in the area that provide "monks" for shows. Besides they have Jingang Quan that takes the place of taiji.

Actually it's not a short list... it's the crux.

Please also tell me how the list above came "through" the Shaolin Temple(s) ... I'd like to know how Yang Taiji, Taiji 24 (which is PRC wushu), Bagua, Xingyi, etc... are Shaolin arts or came through it.

Mas Judt

08-10-2007, 06:51 PM

I think Sin The' will say almost anything.... Both Yang & Chen have very good records, I don't recall either system being mentioned as 'taught at Shaolin' - Yang in particular is a new system, they would have had to move pretty quick before the temple was burned.

The Willow Sword

08-10-2007, 09:34 PM

gwa sow? I think you mean the BLUE PILL? Most take the Blue pill without even realizing it. especially the SD'ers:rolleyes:

Peace,TWS

Litikuai

08-10-2007, 10:26 PM

As a practioner I have seen much and know Shaolin do to be real Shaolin it is these modern things you speak of that you compare Shaolin do to that is inaccurate to do. Peace to you all LTK

Shaolinlueb

08-10-2007, 10:30 PM

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.

brucereiter

08-10-2007, 10:40 PM

The classical Pakua we learned also couldn't have come through the temple either as it was created by Jiang rong qiao.

look up the translations of jiangs rong qiao's books he authored around 1930 +- a bit.
the classical pakua one is great stuff for any sd student

in the preface of one of his hsing i books he speaks about going to the nanjing goshu institute, as well as several other place in china when he learned and taught martial arts. one of the interesting places jiang rong qiao claims to have gone was the shaolin temple. this was before 1930 since that is when the preface letter was dated.

if anyone knows more about this please add to the conversation.

is jiang lying about going to shaolin temple?

could jiang have taught anyone "original" form while he was at the "shaolin temple"?

how do you know what he may or may not have done and who he may or may not have taught.

jiangs "original" form is/was very popular i think a lot of people have learned it and practice it.

It is possible though that the forms were picked up and practiced at the school in Indonesia.

yes it is. and i think that may have been how some of our material came to the system. it would be nice to confirm though ...

best,

bruce

Judge Pen

08-10-2007, 10:40 PM

Judge Pen

08-10-2007, 10:48 PM

Gene, please merge this with the "Is SD for Real Thread." We can contain all comments of SD there.

Judge Pen

08-10-2007, 10:49 PM

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.

Yeah, I heard that. I also heard that many of the older people were impressed that we were doing kung fu the "old way". Since neither of us were there, I put no stock in either comments.

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 11:49 PM

Sean, I could kick you for using that video set for examples when I know you've seen better form exampes of SD with your own eyes, but, then again, they are the only ones putting themselves out there, so there you go. :D

Oh I know... fire away :D , but that's not what I was using them for as indicative performances, but as representative of the topic at hand.

Besides... you kick about as well as I do... I'll move my ankles before you get there. :P

sean_stonehart

08-10-2007, 11:56 PM

look up the translations of jiangs rong qiao's books he authored around 1930 +- a bit.
the classical pakua one is great stuff for any sd student

in the preface of one of his hsing i books he speaks about going to the nanjing goshu institute, as well as several other place in china when he learned and taught martial arts. one of the interesting places jiang rong qiao claims to have gone was the shaolin temple. this was before 1930 since that is when the preface letter was dated.

if anyone knows more about this please add to the conversation.

is jiang lying about going to shaolin temple?

could jiang have taught anyone "original" form while he was at the "shaolin temple"?

how do you know what he may or may not have done and who he may or may not have taught.

jiangs "original" form is/was very popular i think a lot of people have learned it and practice it.

yes it is. and i think that may have been how some of our material came to the system. it would be nice to confirm though ...

best,

bruce

Sure Jiang could've gone to Shaolin pre-1930, but considering the legends say Ie had already learned/was learning from Su Kong in the mountains of Fukien & Su Kong died in 1928 (year Shaolin was destroyed) ... doesn't it make you go "huh" just a little????

brucereiter

08-11-2007, 02:12 AM

Sure Jiang could've gone to Shaolin pre-1930, but considering the legends say Ie had already learned/was learning from Su Kong in the mountains of Fukien & Su Kong died in 1928 (year Shaolin was destroyed) ... doesn't it make you go "huh" just a little????

please do not confuse what i said. i do not know from who, how or when "original" pakua was introduced to our system.

i was responding to someone saying something was impossible with an example of how it could be possible.

sure there are plenty of things that make me go "huh" ...

i for the most part will only "argue" about the content/application of the system (internal side) and not about the history and claims i hear from all sides.

best,

bruce

sean_stonehart

08-11-2007, 04:01 AM

please do not confuse what i said. i do not know from who, how or when "original" pakua was introduced to our system.

No confusion. I wasn't implying or meaning to imply you'd said that.

i was responding to someone saying something was impossible with an example of how it could be possible.

Possible doesn't always include probable

sure there are plenty of things that make me go "huh" ...

Glad to see I'm not the only one who suffers from that

i for the most part will only "argue" about the content/application of the system (internal side) and not about the history and claims i hear from all sides.

best,

bruce

Cool but there's points to question for applications based on history & introduction of material without content & debately history to accompany it. Not saying "something" can't be done out of "X" movement, but without proper background & training, can it be reliable as that or is something greater missing?

Anyways if you're back in town, stay out of the heat...

arinathos.valin

08-11-2007, 05:14 AM

Thank you, Sean, for posting a link that made me want to dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon...

brucereiter

08-11-2007, 05:23 AM

Cool but there's points to question for applications based on history & introduction of material without content & debately history to accompany it. Not saying "something" can't be done out of "X" movement, but without proper background & training, can it be reliable as that or is something greater missing?

in a way i agree ...

Anyways if you're back in town, stay out of the heat...

i am in chicago now pretty good weather here but we just came up from texas, wow! it was hot and humid.

bodhi warrior

08-11-2007, 10:56 AM

What some people refuse to realize is GMS is not the new kid on the block...he has been teaching here since the 60's...we have been to Indonesia & seen where he trained, met some of his colleagues...and saw how they were honored by his presence.....once again this has also been beat to death. BW it wouldn't matter anyway....anyone who is in the public eye like GMS will be attacked...that's part of the terr.
BQ

Being that this would be a big deal for any SD student, did anyone by chance take any pictures? I for one would love to see the school and these colleagues:)
But how come these colleagues are never mentioned by name, these are people he attended the school with and also got some taichi 24 from, but he never mentions their names.:cool: Just curious.

bodhi warrior

08-11-2007, 11:02 AM

sean_stonehart

08-11-2007, 02:22 PM

Thank you, Sean, for posting a link that made me want to dig my eyes out with a rusty spoon...

We do what we can... :D;)

lkfmdc

08-11-2007, 02:51 PM

Wow, that's some real classy monks that would laugh at the people who come across the ocean to see them. Their not even monks. Their just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government.;)

1. Gee, what a shock, you're a Shaolin Doh! guy :rolleyes:

2. Well, if they are "just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government" then a bunch of fake monks putting up a stone tablet for Sin The doesn't mean much does it?

Golden Tiger

08-11-2007, 03:30 PM

Being that this would be a big deal for any SD student, did anyone by chance take any pictures? I for one would love to see the school and these colleagues:)
But how come these colleagues are never mentioned by name, these are people he attended the school with and also got some taichi 24 from, but he never mentions their names.:cool: Just curious.

Actually, there are some pictures. I forget who took them and on which trip (it was a few years ago remember) but which ever trip it was, they stopped in Bandung and spent some time as Master Sin's parents house. They met up with some fellow that was a colleague and I want to say his nickname was something eagle or something to that effect. Older looking fellow, and the one that was holding the notes I think. Heck, it was a longgg time ago.

Anyway, I will ask around and see if I can find the pictures.

bodhi warrior

08-11-2007, 03:48 PM

thanks, that would be great!

Mas Judt

08-11-2007, 04:46 PM

i'd be surprised if they actually appeared... the tale keeps growing in the telling...

Shaolin Wookie

08-11-2007, 08:31 PM

GMT was featured in IKFM several times, ironically. But anyone who implies that he believes everything GMT says is probably not very intelligent.

1. It contradicts all other info.

But perhaps more importantly:

2. You shouldn't believe everything anyone says.

Shaolin Wookie

08-11-2007, 08:34 PM

Excepting, of course, Pres. Bush.;)

Judge Pen

08-11-2007, 11:42 PM

Oh I know... fire away :D , but that's not what I was using them for as indicative performances, but as representative of the topic at hand.

Besides... you kick about as well as I do... I'll move my ankles before you get there. :P

Didn't you know? I've got full splits now...:p

And you may not have intended them for indicative performances, but its hard to get past some of those videos. Not knocking them per se, most of them are regular guys that stuck around and learned the forms and are doing them the best they can, but from their stances and intent its not a great example. And I still scratch my head at the Tiger/Crane video..... I can do that form in my sleep right now and I still strain to recognize his version.

bodhi warrior

08-12-2007, 01:36 AM

1. Gee, what a shock, you're a Shaolin Doh! guy :rolleyes:

2. Well, if they are "just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government" then a bunch of fake monks putting up a stone tablet for Sin The doesn't mean much does it?

Your right. It doesn't mean anything to me. I could care less about the carnaville show called shaolin in china. I also don't care for the promoting of a stone tablet to make my art seem more legit. I don't agree with alot of things Sin The' has done, all I know are the techniques I learn from my teacher. Regardless of how he obtained them, the techniques are real and useful to me. The majority of schools in SD are becoming very watered down and weak. You see it very clearly in the CSC videos. But there are also some very good teachers who have a good grasp of different types of training ie. forms, stances, drills, conditioning.

mantis7

08-12-2007, 01:38 AM

Man, I wish I still had the article of the Sharon (Soards or whatever her name was) and her group buying the stone thingy to honor 'Sin. The article, if i remeber correctly, was in IKF, in the back page with the school adverts. This was before it became that the monks honoring him with the steele.

sean_stonehart

08-12-2007, 02:19 AM

Didn't you know? I've got full splits now...:p

You lie...:eek:;)

kwaichang

08-12-2007, 02:32 AM

JP does not lie he can do it ive seen him The splits that is KC

sean_stonehart

08-12-2007, 06:13 AM

Photographic proof then...

JP's a lawyer... fibbing is ingrained & part & parcel for him as a profession... :eek::eek::D:D

brucereiter

08-12-2007, 11:10 PM

i'd be surprised if they actually appeared... the tale keeps growing in the telling...

hi bhodi, mas and the rest ...

here are a few pictures from that time that were given to me.

The photo is in front of Master Ie's home. Master Sin is in the middle with Master Ie's adopted son and family. sr master grooms on the far right of the photo, Master David Theroff is the guy ****hest to the left. earlier that day they visited Master Sin's parents and his brother Sang's (hiang) home.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/MasterIeshouse001.jpg

demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo001.jpg

copy of the ticket to the demo/banquet that was done in Master Sin's honor.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/brucereiter/1992Demo-Ticket001.jpg

best,

bruce

bodhi warrior

08-12-2007, 11:32 PM

Hey bruce, thanks for the pics. Looked like a big event! I wish we had more pics of stuff like that, as well as when Sin was training. I think it would help curb some of the anti sd sentiment.

brucereiter

08-12-2007, 11:46 PM

Hey bruce, thanks for the pics. Looked like a big event! I wish we had more pics of stuff like that, as well as when Sin was training. I think it would help curb some of the anti sd sentiment.

it might ... lol ... but "they" will always find something to pick on ...

i too would like to see/hear more about ie/sin's training and hear about the method and day to day practice etc ... if any "older" sd people have any pictures or documents they would like to share with the public that would be awesome.

best,

bruce

Leto

08-13-2007, 02:10 AM

That's a lot of folks to bring to someone's house *lol* I see some other familiar faces in there too. When was this trip? early eighties?

on a side note...Master Theroff looks miserable every time I see a picture of him. He must be a super serious guy. Even at his sixth black promotion, he barely cracked a smile. :)

brucereiter

08-13-2007, 02:25 AM

That's a lot of folks to bring to someone's house *lol* I see some other familiar faces in there too.

sure is ... lol ...

When was this trip? early eighties?

july 1 1992 is when the demo/banquet was according to the picture of the ticket to the event which is linked in the previous post.

on a side note...Master Theroff looks miserable every time I see a picture of him. He must be a super serious guy. Even at his sixth black promotion, he barely cracked a smile. :)

i have never met him but several people i know have spoken highly of him.

best,

bruce

bodhi warrior

08-13-2007, 02:54 AM

Just read this book, and I must say I see some similarities in training between one of the co-authors(tjoa khek kiong) and shaolin do. This guy taught chinese martial arts in indonesia and looking at the form it has a familiar flavor to it. I really liked how he broke down martial arts into three groups, one for fighting, one for health, and one for show. Anyone else read this or other books by the same author?

bodhi warrior

08-13-2007, 03:11 AM

I was at the bookstore today and was browsing some of the martial material, when I picked up this book about Tang Soo Do. I started reading the history and it went on about how the art dates back so many thousand years and that Hwang kee combined them with chinese martial arts. But it never mentions how Hwang kee came upon these techniques. In a black belt magazine interview in sept. 1984 it states he was virtually self taught. He learned from books and practiced in secluded areas. Later he travelled to china and learned some softer flowing hand techniques.
Sounds kinda familiar.

Leto

08-13-2007, 03:33 AM

Yes, I've got that book. I was hoping I'd see some black tiger similar to the four forms taught in SD, but it's really quite different. It's probably closer to the luohan forms, which makes sense since the book is only the very basic material in that black tiger system.

bodhi warrior

08-13-2007, 03:37 AM

The opening sequence for the form in the book looks very much like our ching kong fu hu chien, and chie chien. But your right the form is different than our black tigers. But I did see similarities in the section called elements of training.

golden arhat

08-13-2007, 03:41 AM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qemnikjhBkI

dear god dear f@cking god

loll i igonored the shaolin do thread entirely before
and just discovered what u guys were talking about just now

dear god where do u find these ppl ?

as they say

"only in america" :(

B-Rad

08-13-2007, 04:16 AM

It's difficult to watch, it's so much like the martial arts I started out learning when I was a teenager. On one hand, many of the SD people are soooooo nice, but watching the videos you feel a little ticked that someone like Sin The can get away with scamming people like that. Of course they're having so much fun and getting healthy it doesn't seem possible that it's all based on a lies and deception. If he hadn't been caught touching young girls (among other crimes), my first teacher would be well on his way to having a large chain like this.

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 04:31 AM

what I want to know - WHO does Sin Thé's hair? I mean, those auburn highlights are just to DIE for!

B-Rad

08-13-2007, 04:41 AM

i heard through the grapevine the monks actually fell asleep and were laughing at parts of Sin the's shaolin do presentation at the temple.
Sounds like kind of an exaggeration of some things that Gene had hinted at in one of his comments about the Shaolin-Do visit to Shaolin.

The majority of schools in SD are becoming very watered down and weak. You see it very clearly in the CSC videos.
I don't know, seems to me to be the other way around from seeing some of the older teachers, including Sin The. It was weak and watered down to begin with while some have managed to turn it into something more solid from a martial perspective. Most of these teachers are easily out classed by middle level to senior students of legit masters or amateur level sport fighters.

Lama Pai Sifu

08-13-2007, 04:50 AM

What have I been doing all these years? I have been teaching, what I THOUGHT was good CMA, when I really should have just started a cult.

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 05:03 AM

What have I been doing all these years? I have been teaching, what I THOUGHT was good CMA, when I really should have just started a cult.

yeah, you even got the head shaving thing backwards - it's the students who are supposed to do it ya' nimrod...

B-Rad

08-13-2007, 05:06 AM

lol, seriously, it's such an easy con that I'm really surprised I don't see more of it. Of course a lot of criminals can't just stop at the martial arts con and are involved with other crimes like molesting kids, evading taxes, and so on :p Those with some self control (who probably find justification for fabricating training history in the legends of the past) can make a pretty good living. My first teacher had gotten over 100 paying monthly students at around $60/month. Including uniform sales, weapon sales, belt test fees ranging from something like $50-$1000, black belt programs and "grandmaster" programs from $5,000-$10,000, seminars teaching stolen and made up material... he was doing pretty well for himself. Students included black belts from legit systems, lawyers, a former pro athlete, at least one police officer, an ex special forces soldier... even a jujitsu guy who was a fairly successful mma fighter. Looking back it's all a little baffling. There's just something about teaching martial arts that gives you a lot of power over otherwise intelligent reasonable people.

Lama Pai Sifu

08-13-2007, 05:08 AM

yeah, you even got the head shaving thing backwards - it's the students who are supposed to do it ya' nimrod...

D'oh!

:eek:

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 05:27 AM

D'oh!

:eek:

of course, it's never too late to start...pass the Kool Aide!

lkfmdc

08-13-2007, 05:30 AM

I am incorporating tomorrow, my new organization

SCAM-LIN DO

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 05:44 AM

I am incorporating tomorrow, my new organization

SCAM-LIN DO

we await your instructions...

lkfmdc

08-13-2007, 05:45 AM

we await your instructions...

there's gonna be a lot of head shaving, a lot of chi healing and taekwondo forms.... that's all I am saying for now

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 05:48 AM

there's gonna be a lot of head shaving, a lot of chi healing and taekwondo forms.... that's all I am saying for now

so pretty much a regular Friday night...

Lama Pai Sifu

08-13-2007, 05:50 AM

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)

lkfmdc

08-13-2007, 05:54 AM

so pretty much a regular Friday night...

no, on Fridays we do Heian forms and call them Tai Chi

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 06:01 AM

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)

no, on Fridays we do Heian forms and call them Tai Chi

BTW, this is why it's still a trip to hang with you guys after all these years - great seeing you both the other day, hope to do it again soon

lkfmdc

08-13-2007, 06:10 AM

BTW, this is why it's still a trip to hang with you guys after all these years - great seeing you both the other day, hope to do it again soon

well, here's an invite ;)

cjurakpt

08-13-2007, 06:14 AM

LOL

but isn't it "Chi Canine-ery?"

lkfmdc

08-13-2007, 06:23 AM

Bark Mei Pai :D

Lama Pai Sifu

08-13-2007, 07:04 AM

I prefer to call my newly founded cult;

$haolin-Dough

:)

I had to repost that again because it was so goddamm funny!

BAAM!!

Shaolin Wookie

08-13-2007, 06:05 PM

Yuk it up fellas.

But we know you're jealous of our Chu style Bagua.

Leto

08-14-2007, 12:22 AM

Chu Bagua?
Wu Ki Quan? (fist of the walking carpet)

You mean the five animal frolics don't include bantha chews fodder and gundarc lunges at nerfherder?

But they told me my midichlorian count was high...

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 08:59 AM

I had to repost that again because it was so goddamm funny!

BAAM!!Just curious as to why someone who seems to have a profitable business and such as you do finds it neccesary to attack others and their styles??

You deminished any last shred of respect I had for you.

You know, I receive your newsletter/ announcements via email and value what is in them for what it is ,but you know some of the stuff you publish and teach is worse than anything I have ever seen in the CMA community

Basically you are no one to talk

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 09:00 AM

you guys are killing me with this stuff!!!:D

Lama Pai Sifu

08-14-2007, 09:41 AM

Just curious as to why someone who seems to have a profitable business and such as you do finds it neccesary to attack others and their styles??

You deminished any last shred of respect I had for you.

You know, I receive your newsletter/ announcements via email and value what is in them for what it is ,but you know some of the stuff you publish and teach is worse than anything I have ever seen in the CMA community

Basically you are no one to talk

Thank you. You made me laugh. I appreciate that.

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 09:46 AM

Thank you. You made me laugh. I appreciate that.this does not answer the question??

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 10:06 AM

Another thing I was wondering about your program.....it seems that you have a lot of the trappings of Japanese karate and mc dojos.

What is the deal wth this??

ie. patches, belt / sashes ,kung fu parties ,etc?? I also noticed you are fat and have a receeding hairline , must be the reason you shaved your head.:D

your myspace page says you have a body builder type body.:rolleyes::eek:

lkfmdc

08-14-2007, 04:35 PM

Well, when you are a dedicated zombie follower of the dog faced kenpo movement, I guess all you have left is to talk about receeding hairlines :rolleyes:

firepalm

08-14-2007, 09:34 PM

Just chimed into this one. Feel compelled to add a few comments;

Wow, that's some real classy monks that would laugh at the people who come across the ocean to see them. Their not even monks. Their just wushu people who pretend to be monks to bring money to the government.;)

You know bodhi w., sighting them as 'classy monks' or wushu people posing as monks does not invalidate their opinion and what they saw they obviously found laughible. I am not saying it's good manners by 'western standards' & I have witnessed it many times myself in China but many over there will laugh when they see something inferior being passed off as good Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Sin's people, the 'Monks' (whether or not they are valid monks or not is inconsequential in this case) & most regular Chinese people alike have seen a hell of a lot more in the realm of Chinese Martial Arts and can recognize real skill. I am only speculating but I can guess looked at Sin's people and were so unimpressed to the point of thinking WTF!

And buying a tablet at the front of Shaolin means nothing at all, you have the money anyone can do it. Having the tablet does not validate 'Sin' or his 'stuff'.

I have seen some of Sin's students I place them up there with the Temple Kung Fu sorts, Kenpo trying to pass itself off as Chinese Martial Arts.

You can say that lkfmdc lacks etiquette but me personally I appreciate his straight forwardness. He comes from a background of traditional CMA and has gone forward into the area of full contact fighting so I would guess that he has seen enough to certainly be able to recognize a legitimite Chinese Martial Art.

Once again my own opinion, Sin's stuff is right up there with Temple Kung Fu (as well as Shou shu) and it's all C R A P!
:eek:

David Jamieson

08-14-2007, 09:38 PM

which one of you gave ross the photoshop?

lol

too funny man

"checkers"

lkfmdc

08-14-2007, 09:44 PM

which one of you gave ross the photoshop?

I AM INSULTED!

I did that photoshop on my own!

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 10:47 PM

Just chimed into this one. Feel compelled to add a few comments;

You know bodhi w., sighting them as 'classy monks' or wushu people posing as monks does not invalidate their opinion and what they saw they obviously found laughible. I am not saying it's good manners by 'western standards' & I have witnessed it many times myself in China but many over there will laugh when they see something inferior being passed off as good Chinese Martial Arts. Unlike Sin's people, the 'Monks' (whether or not they are valid monks or not is inconsequential in this case) & most regular Chinese people alike have seen a hell of a lot more in the realm of Chinese Martial Arts and can recognize real skill. I am only speculating but I can guess looked at Sin's people and were so unimpressed to the point of thinking WTF!

And buying a tablet at the front of Shaolin means nothing at all, you have the money anyone can do it. Having the tablet does not validate 'Sin' or his 'stuff'.

I have seen some of Sin's students I place them up there with the Temple Kung Fu sorts, Kenpo trying to pass itself off as Chinese Martial Arts.

You can say that lkfmdc lacks etiquette but me personally I appreciate his straight forwardness. He comes from a background of traditional CMA and has gone forward into the area of full contact fighting so I would guess that he has seen enough to certainly be able to recognize a legitimite Chinese Martial Art.

Once again my own opinion, Sin's stuff is right up there with Temple Kung Fu (as well as Shou shu) and it's all C R A P!
:eek:I wonder why it can not be understood by you people that SD has DIFFFRENT TRADITIONS because of the geographical direction it went after leaving China.

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts .

I think you guys spend too much time argueing about the differences in everything and do not focus on the similarities. The uniform , the terminology , etc. does not matter.

I know that the stone tablets have nothing to offer in the way of legitimacy either.

David Jamieson

08-14-2007, 10:52 PM

I wonder why it can not be understood by you people that SD has DIFFFRENT TRADITIONS because of the geographical direction it went after leaving China.

As for the Traditions in CMA a lot of it is STRAIGHT C R A P and has nothing to do with real martial arts. Lion dancing , flowery movements, cerimonies and rituals, and all that was added to the arts after they left the temple and /or a part of Family traditions, but have NOTHING to do with legitimacyof the arts .

I think you guys spend too much time argueing about the differences in everything and do not focus on the similarities. The uniform , the terminology , etc. does not matter.

I know that the stone tablets have nothing to offer in the way of legitimacy either.

I think that calling the cultural traditions straight crap is the same as calling anyones traditions crap. how about the Muay Thai homage to Garuda? Is that straight crap or just something that's part and parcel? How about the Janga in capoeira? Crap?

yes, there are lots of traditional elements of acquiring kungfu through practice of chinese martial arts that have little to do with martial art, but so what, that's how it is, it's tied into it. If you want to bypass that, then just go learn san shou and you can avoid all that.

however, there is a difference between culturally relevanyt stuff and outright bs such as dog faced hairy monks and using stones at shaolin that were paid for to present oneself as something they are not. Not to mention the near complete disconnect from virtually all styles of actual tcma.

it's like if I held up a pineapple and insisted that it was an orange.

tattooedmonk

08-14-2007, 11:00 PM

I think that calling the cultural traditions straight crap is the same as calling anyones traditions crap. how about the Muay Thai homage to Garuda? Is that straight crap or just something that's part and parcel? How about the Janga in capoeira? Crap?

yes, there are lots of traditional elements of acquiring kungfu through practice of chinese martial arts that have little to do with martial art, but so what, that's how it is, it's tied into it. If you want to bypass that, then just go learn san shou and you can avoid all that.

however, there is a difference between culturally relevanyt stuff and outright bs such as dog faced hairy monks and using stones at shaolin that were paid for to present oneself as something they are not. Not to mention the near complete disconnect from virtually all styles of actual tcma.

it's like if I held up a pineapple and insisted that it was an orange.It is crap in the sense that it has nothing to do with the martial arts and was not practiced inside the temple the way that it is presented in TCMA schools.

This was something that was added after the fact.

As for the near disconection from All styles of TCMA I think this was the idea. The material and history is still the same.

I am curious as to how you guys come up with these conclusions based on just stuff you get off the net , amazing.